Since one person was fated to thrive against another person fated to thrive it kinda cancelled each other out as both were equally fortunate plus piccolo
They wrote themselves into a corner when they introduced Beerus and Whis, later Zeno. Worse even is making them Goku’s buddies. How can you take the villain seriously when goobers are sitting and snickering on the sidelines, waiting to hand you your own ***** All tension’s lost. Hence Black Frieza being the result.
Yeah Beerus and Whis sticking around was a problem as soon as Resurrection F when they removed all of the tension from a rematch between Goku and Freeza. And now no matter how strong Goku gets Beerus is always stronger than him lol. I wouldn't mind if Black Freeza finally whooped him lol
@@kapayasiame3632 Very lazy! In my other video about the Granolah arc I pointed out that a 7 Dragon Ball hunt could've made for great character development for Granolah.
You all state that beerus takes away the tension when in fact they were useless in the future trunks arc. The tension was all but halted that arc and showed clearly the menacing nature of a Rouge Kai. What ultimately removes tension for most fans is the fact super takes place between the 10 year time skip of end of Z. Or known as the world peace arc.
@@Thecor13 the arc beerus wasn’t involved in was dealt with by zeno erasing though… Which not only removed the tension of the consequence but made all their efforts seem for nothing
Well..... Gas was young compared to the post wish gas, look how tall he got after getting the wish he aged atleast 50years, so basically bardock was fighting a toddler gas
Isn't it better that the form isn't too over power. DB fans have literally been complaining about new forms coming out of nowhere. This gives a chance for the form to grow.
@@awesome395 That's a bad argument. Toyotaro can write any scenario where Vegeta wins. In hindsight, anything would be better than the awful arc that we got.
@redguard1607 that one was actually not the authors fault. It was intended to end there but his editors and publishers insisted he continue it and eventually he wrote himself into a corner so just ended it the way he did. He had no plans to carry on at all and had to just come up with sommething, rather than have it all planned out months ahead
The sad part about Bardock wish is... Damn, no love for Raditz, right? It is weird how Dragon Ball FORGOT the brother of the protagonist, who need the former arch-enemy and the death of the protagonist to defeat
You must have not watched the video bardock literally said “I’d wish that my sons end up thriving” did you also not read the arc, my SONS not just goku he means goku and raditz
@@sejhehsidbdsbs6682 I've watched hehe but it is about how Goku ended up being the protagonist and throwing every powerlevel, but Raditz ended up being so so so much lesser
Training 😐 zenkai boost and the will to protect what raditz had was the power complex that's what all the saiyans in the saga had vegeta Napa and raditz felt like gods die to power cliffing all of em@@franciscoadasilvajr4514
@@sejhehsidbdsbs6682I don’t see how Raditz ended up thriving at all. Bro accomplished nothing exceptional in his entire life just to be killed by his own brother. Honestly hoping that Raditz gets revived by the dragon balls somehow, otherwise that wish just makes no sense
Bardock was one of my favorite Dragon Ball characters because he was in no way special. Sure, he was the father of Goku, but other than that he's just a normal saiyan (hell even in his movie he isn't that unique) and while he attempted to save the saiyans from Frieza he ultimately failed. There's just something so poetic (to me at least) about Bardock's failure and (in the movie) seeing a vision of Goku as he's killed by Frieza. It also reinforces a strong theme of Dragon Ball, that strength (especially Goku's) is earned, not given. Goku's lineage wasn't exceptional by any means, but he became one of the strongest mortals in the world. That's powerful stuff. Toriyama himself admits that he could never write a story like the Bardock movie, and I personally think he shouldn't have messed with the character at all. This (at least, to me) is my least favorite part of the entire arc. It's cool Bardock came up again, but honestly, if he was gonna be retconned like this, I would've rathered him not shown up at all. *For everyone replying about "strength is earned, not given," I'm not talking about DBS bullshit. I'm talking about early DB.*
@@Carbon_Based_Life_FormDBS exist as a alternative world to me. BS power ups, Goku Black arc was inconsistent, and making Goku a literal retard that has to remember the training he went through with Popo and Kami while training with Whis.
What about Broly then? Dude never trained seriously in his entire life and wiped both Goku and Vegeta in 1 hour. The only reason that made them become strong is because they are sayans but talent is something you are born with and not earned
@@dade97asd96he was literally the strongest saiyan in existence when he was a mere infant,You can argue about others but broly being as strong as he is,is justifiable
ignoring the Granolah arc. i feel like DB minus still worked for Bardock, he was still somewhat a regular saiyan, just one that cared a bit more for his fam. like you could with a few minor edits work the OG Bardock special and Minus together into one. heck the expanded prequel bits of the Broly movie still had Bardock Die when Freeza Blew up the planet trying to stop it. that's how i feel about it atleast.
I never read the DB manga, so this is just so funny to hear conceptually. The story was so sh*t that Freeza just crashes the party, ends the plot, kicks everyone's butt and says "Cool, finally won and got my revenge for real, only took a few decades" and leaves without further elaborating.
@@Wade_in_your_waterI’ve read up to top and I felt like after reading some of the manga things were going not as great then they do and ass pull with bardock and freezer
My biggest problem with Bardock's wish is that it only makes sense if you ignore Raditz. The results of his wish don’t make sense given what we know about how Raditz's life turned out. Raditz is the weakest saiyan we see on screen, lives his life as the slave of a slave, and gets killed by his own brother on a planet no one cared about. Like usual we are expected to forget that Raditz exists and that Bardock supposedly loved his sons equally.
@OMAR-vk9pi Raditz can hardly be said to have "thrived" or even had a decent life. Ergo Bardocks wish only makes sense if you ignore that Raditz exists.
Freeza might get a pass cause he's an existing character and people have been wanting to see him return after the Tournament of Power. But narratively, this would be the equivalent of Beerus showing up randomly at the end of the Cell saga, one-shot destroyed Cell and then just phased out.
@@marksunboxingzoneno. the difference is beerus isn’t a threat. frieza is a villain who showed up to take down another villain that tried to betray him. then he one shots the main characters to show that he doesn’t care for them. and the only reason he didn’t kill them is because they help him get stronger to pursue his own goals of ruling.
Well, this is what happens when you get a fan mangaka to write the official story lol. And it’s even worse because the actual author is the most forgetful man in the world
The granola arc felt like a fan manga. And i think its gonna stay that way if they keep trying to one up the next biggest bad, we have plenty of characters with lore to revist and explore but its gone just as soon as it appears. All for more shiny transformations and character regression
Lol did yall forget Toyotarou started by making fan manga he was the one who made Dragon Ball AF. So it Super feels like a fan manga it technically is with Toriyama's help.
This why the timeline in DragonBall is very bad here. They’ve retcon everything that Toriyama has written over the years, and it happened in a single wish that Bardock has made. Seriously a stupid wish is the reason that Goku has become powerful in the first place. Not by years of hard training, and not years of hardship that Goku had to go through to become a martial arts master. This is so stupid.
Eh...it's more of a translation error since in jp bardock wish is for his sons to "grow up strong and healthy" for which they used the word thriving but the word had another meaning too (being successful) to which the people misinterpreted as the reason why goku is so strong up till now and the reason he was able to beat so many of his enemies.
The fact that Raditz died like a chump and was considered a bum I doubt the wish boosted Goku that much. But tbh even if it hypothetically did it doesn't really matter since Goku did train like hell for decades.
No. Goku becoming powerful is thanks to him, the meetings he had and everything else. The wish is the reason he didn't die. Don't forget Goku was still weaker than Raditz. He became stronger by training, especially after King Kai. The wish did not have any effect anymore.
This arc was literally the epitome of flanderization of dragon ball making every fight this arc just people saying “Im the strongest” “nuh uh IM the strongest” “oh wait no it’s ME”
Now for Frieza they were Saying Frieza is coming Frieza is coming all the time now if they said this and Frieza never came when he did then what would be the point
Bro your editing style is so freaking amazing! So happy to see you back and creating videos! Cant wait to watch this and Im looking forward to seeing more uploads from you! Edit: Im got around to watching the full video and wow! Thank you so much for the shoutout. Your content is really good man. Keep it up!
Thanks for the support bro! As I said before 2023 is our year, the videos won't make themselves lol, that being said I'm not gonna make another Dragon Ball video this long for a while though 😂 Already editing a new video for a gaming related channel I want to start 🔥
Just trying to milk goku until he has nothing left to give he’s literally lost all the martial arts he learnt in dragon ball and now he just gets killed for power ups because the stroy has been going too long
It’s not even the retcons that are the problem. I’m fine with retcons, they happen in a lot of media, one piece, Star Wars etc. it’s the bad writing that’s the problem.
Toriyama's failure is his obsession with Goku. If he could have let him go, and made Gohan the focus, things could have progressed more simply, without the need for new forms, new extremes and new foes. Goku should have never come back from Namek. Gohan should have had his own Dragon Ball-type adventure series until he reached his teens, like his father. Then, naturally, we get a Z-type series again, but now it's Gohan and his son. And when the father passes,the son becomes the focus. And on and on down the bloodline. Forever.
I feel that an editor is needed to reel in both Toriyama/Toro when it comes to the second act and the third/final act in each story arc. That’s what made the Cell saga work so well, as Toriyama’s then Editor, forced him to create the Androids that we come to love today. Based on some old interviews, Toriyama’s editors really forced him to be more thoughtful when it came to conflict and resolution between antagonists and protagonists, often finding ways to prolong and grow characters with multiple encounters and interactions. Imagine how great some of the DBS manga chapters would be if someone actually challenged Toriyamas’ summary outlines, changing final bosses/antagonists, and ultimately retaining character growth and motivations that aren’t on par with a fan fiction written and acted by a five-year-old banging toys together. Toriyama has ultimately become the West’s issue with George Lucas; where there was other talented people involved with their earlier body of work, but are cut from modern day projects. What we’re left with are suits at Toei Animation becoming “yes men” and Toriyama not being creatively challenged to tell proper stories with build up, hype, much less character growth that doesn’t involve fisticuffs. The last Dragonball movie was an embarrassment when it came to the transformations of both Piccolo and Gohan. Not how it was portrayed, but how the characters got to their transformations. The Dragonball Relaunch itself has been a mix of good and bad moments, but mostly the latter. Look at all that potential wasted build-up leading up to Frieza’s appearance after training in some pocket dimension. The fact that there’s hardly ever a tense moment knowing Whis or Beerus lurks behind the next page turn? Reducing Goku’s intelligence down to another Homer Simpson clone! I get this franchise is suppose to sell toys to grown men, but the quality of writing feels extremely lazy, even for a gag comic guy like Toriyama.
I feel like the meme has always been that Dragonball is like watching a kid bang action figures together. But this REALLY is actually like watching a kid band action figures together and each one just gets a quick thing to be like "Aw, he's so strong, he can beat anybody!" before they go right into a fight and basically just do boring generic action until the plot ends.
Very very well said and I agree with every sentiment especially the editor take in the cell saga was a great point I’ve said in the past. But I’m just ready for disappointment and mediocrity with the writing to the point I don’t even feel toriyama even wants to be challenged at this age and Will weight bullet points for the tournament of power and the others fill the gaps it’s like it’s hard for me to care about this when the writing is ass but has its moments in moro arc Or no character development Honestly some character regression going all around not even just goku making the same mistakes not learning lessons he was to learn even in fukatsu no F it’s like be for real this is a lesson he learned so long ago and falls victim to it again and again like he’s a idiot.
Bardock has been getting the short end of the stick for a while now. The original, uncaring, normal Saiyan him is SO MUCH better then the "anti-hero" version of him Toriyama has been pushing. He so forgot the point and set up he made for his character.
I don't even know why bring bardock up. he died a billion years ago, let the guy's soul rest. He wasn't even special, he was just a guy. He was so not meant to be a character that he doesn't even have his own design, he's just "goku but with a scar and wearing different clothes".
Yes, I agree, wishing for powerups is the worst decision ever implemented IMO. Even though we had the occasional Zenak boost and other minor ass pulls, what made me fall in love with Dragonball as a kid was the concept of getting to the next level through hard work.
And it is literally stated that Granola is a threat but due to his lack of experience and training that Goku and Vegeta have through their hard work that they could beat him. Meanwhile Gas is a rage monster that is reduced to decrepit bones by his abusive brother that he is only a tool for. When it comes to the narrative here, wishing for power doesn't grant real "strength", especially when everyone gets bodied at the end by Frieza who just became the real strongest in the universe through 10 years of hard work.
@@joelsasmad There being Time Chambers everywhere in the universe is getting boring as well. I mean they introduced the Time Chamber with some rule you can only enter the room for an X amount of hours or something. Now it is being used as an easy way to power up characters. Oh Vegeta lost a fight? Just go in the room for a day or 2 and get stronger again. Everything inside the Super universe is just a bit to convenient for the story to progress... and it is boring. Vegeta suddenly being able to use instant transmission for a single time was some bs as well.
@@filthyklownzssb4589The time chamber has always been a weird convenience the heroes should have used when they faced danger. I for one find it cool that the villain used the method the heroes have against them.
It really kinda felt like Toyotaro thought the Granolah arc was a good idea, began writing it, but about 10 chapters in he got tired of it and said “how do i both get hella cash and finish this with the least amount of effort possible”
@@ghoulchan7525 and that person was probably talking out of their ass. People who know what’s going on would know that’s not what happened especially since even in it’s low points it’s keeping it’s themes consistent and building on what came before. The worst part of the arc was that it was mostly three fights over one day with nothing else.
Not at all. Look at Raditz. The wish never ensured that his sons would love and be powerful long term, it is just likely why they survived their home planet's destruction.
Vegeta lacking in... Saiyan pride.... DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHO YOU ARE WRITING FOR!? That man goes about Saiyan pride like it was his life line What do you mean he's lacking in Saiyan Pride!? "You say I'm arrogant, I say Damn right, that's pride, pride in the Saiyan I am, the mighty prince of the ultimate warrior race!" This quote was said by Vegeta, TWO ARCS AGO! Granted the quote was from the anime, but still. This man has never lacked Saiyan pride. If anything, he had too much Saiyan Pride. WTF, Super!
The thing is that that pride he had in the anime was a different. It was a pride in being the ultimate warrior race that usually was shown in a very negative light as hubris that is usually punished and makes him an emotional wreck. The whole idea here is that arc Vegeta has finally understood what real pride is. Not being the strongest or getting revenge, but "staying true to your nature and sticking to your convictions. That's true of any tribe there is."
Oh man it's really nice to see a series reborn after 30 years only to fail arc after arc while fans keep sniffing that copium and telling us the next one is gonna be sooooo gooood
@ellisp276 the super anime didn't have a Manga to go off of and fix or improve the narrative. So what ended up happening is the manga came out after and changed and improved some stuff of the anime. What we could see happen is the reversal where the Manga granolah arc is out first and its bad. However the anime could fix it up and change somethings to make it much better.
It's just crazy how he gets punished for the pride of the Saiyans while Goku gets uplifted. I always thought the writing was intelligent insulting from The Prince to The Low Class Warrior. It's a manipulation and an intelligent insulting scenario. Where the Prince is mostly treated like the Low Class Warrior while The actual Low Class Warrior gets Prince/King treatment. When you actually think about it this is exactly what it is.
9:42 This is not quite what happened to Ichigo. What Ichigo actually did, was that he was holding back his power, because he realized he was scaring Orihime with his Hollow - which he was still afraid of -, making him hold back and not focus on the battle. Then after hearing Orihime begging him to just win, he got the right motivation. Bardock situation could've done something like that... If... The DB IP wasnt big enough yo be able to oversell any mediocre media they made, so they don't have to care for the product.
@@ghostface1385 exactly, not even close. It's the difference between one of the best character writing in shonen jump history and literally nothing at all.
I mean... besides the Orihime part, that kind of boils down to the same thing, right? He wasnt strong enough so he just... _poof_ "now I'm strong enough"ed
What the hell were the rest of the Z fighters doing during all of this!!?? It would of been nice to see them prepare for this fight since goku and Vegeta are known for screwing shit up like they always do.
Lol. The Z fighters should understand that Goku + Vegeta are warriors first and heroes second. I don't understand how they aren't prepared for any screw ups since both Goku and Vegeta have a history for fucking shit up
@@leultrainstinct406 Wishing for ultimate strength and still losing to a person who made the same wish as you isn't a great character. It's like a 5th graders first attempt at a story.
I couldn’t process the whole arc man, all l saw was ultra instinct an ego developing while two buffoons try and be the strongest only for frieza to pull up uninvited to the cookout. It was good for me since I had nothing else to do at school
@@JustSaiyanDudecrazy how you say that when associating character to raw power is exactly what a 5th grader would do💀 You’re focusing on power levels when that was never the point. Granolah made that wish because he became obsessed with revenge due to years of carrying guilt from never having the power to save his people before, and now he had an opportunity to redeem himself. But in doing so, he literally burns away his entire lifespan and casts away all the people he cares for, and almost became the same as the destroyers who killed his race when he threatens the sugarians city. Then by the end of the arc, he throws revenge away even when he had a chance to kill the person who killed his mom because the damage it causes. But yea just ignore all that because he lost
-On the topic of worst arcs for me I think Buu still is the worst when its purely Toriyama+Toyo content. Buu just blatantly throws away almost every new thing introduced like 8 chapters after it appears. As a fellow one piece fan, seeing how Oda makes sure everything introduced is relevant the arc just gets worse every time I read it. Recently, I also learned that Toriyama also isnt a very good writer without his editors CARRYING him since his editors backed off for the buu arc. -Granolah was just kinda there and that's about it. Like moro he has a cool ability but it just gets replaced by "hit him harder" later on same with gas -MUI getting one shotted is kinda stupid cuz it loops back to your point about goku forgetting things hes learned already since in the 23rd tournament tien literally uses a clone against him so goku going "what's going on?!?! What are you talking about vegeta????" Is just ridiculous -UI I would have handled in the manga is having goku try to use it with super saiyan forms in moro then unlocked sign as well in the same arc instead of just getting silver immediately it was too soon. -The bardock flashbacks are just whatever and it's just trying to make him out to be more important than he actually is when Z bardock I like because hes a nobody and unimportant in the grand scheme of things. -Remember when goku tried using his emotions against moro while in sign like against gas but he got bodied like 3 pages later. -ULTRA EGO LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO -Black Frieza was hype at first but now we probably have to wait like a year to see anything related to him again. He'll probably be the last stepping stone till we finally go past end of z. Overall the arc I'm mixed on and I loved the moro arc(ch.61 and the first 10ish pages of 65 excluded) Great video man Sorry for the long comment
i dont understand why people hate the buu arc it has one of my favorite things about dragon ball like fusion and majinn vegeta and buu was just pure evil he literally killed everyone
I'm not surprised about the UI retcons, they retconned to hell and back Super Saiyan Blue to just be another super saiyan form but stronger. They retconned UI just to have a new transformation obviously... 🙄
Blue was never retconned, what do u even mean? It ALWAYS was explained as SSG’s super saiyan form . It got further details (such as the “power drain after every transformation Burst “ but that’s it. Introducing “mastered” was never something remotely bad as its obvious you can master any form, and when u don’t, the backlash was explained. Personally I hate “evolved” blue but it also didn’t retcon shit
@@ethangnasher3848again, they never retconned anything about it for any reason. It’s always been stated that ui is for angels, so mortals using it had their own versions. Which is what tui is. And it has the exact same design as omen wym shiny new form💀
Honestly Dragon Ball Super feels like fan fiction. The OG series was great (all 42 volumes as well as both adapted tv series). It’s my favorite manga of all time. But Super feels a lot like how GT feels in the way that something just isn’t…right.
@9:45 the reason why Ichigo pulled an "Ichigo" move was because he was holding back to some what of an extent because he didn't really wanna kill Grimjow until he was left with no other choice.
Yes, tbf it's not obvious how Ichigo's power is displayed in Bleach. I think most people know he has insane latent power, however it's never shown outright because Ichigo is the kind of person to not want to crush his enemies. Ichigo's power is in reality higher than everybody else's. Plain and simple. (Except for Aizen pre-final getsuga) He just has little control, and has to actually allow it to come forth; then he just wins. When he realises he ABSOLUTELY MUST destroy his enemy, it all comes out. Unlike something like One Punch Man, Ichigo has to actually wrestle with the idea of using his power rather than just having no choice but to spray his enemies on the wall.
Just looked up this Grimmjow dude and he has the most "kill me" face I've ever seen. Shounen MCs are the only ones that could struggle to kill that dude lmao
@@Dogan_TM If Bleach basically had Ichigo go less emotional we would just be watching Kenpachi, but with orange hair, while having Chainsaw Man level of blood to compliment it. So basically Berserk but you remove all the character development and anything tied to emotions, and put Guts in the Berserker armor 24/7
It’s not exactly that. It’s more that Ichigo had been struggling with his hollow side the whole arc. He didn’t want to accept that there was this monster inside of him. Grimmjow is basically trying to force Ichigo to just give in to his beastly instincts to fight and consume his enemy because that’s how he lives. But Ichigo is holding back from fully embracing that kind of strength especially because Orihime is there and his hollow form traumatizes her. But once Orihime tells Ichigo to do what he has to do to win, Ichigo finally let’s go of his reservations and let’s out his true strength
@@flameheadsheroBoohoo he got over it quick. It's just that the arcs lasted years. He technically got it (his hollow side) because of the life chain was getting eaten thanks to that bucket hat teacher provoking his transformation to save Rukia after his powers were taken away, but the story never calls him out.
Has to be said, your thumbnails are easily the best that I've seen thus far. Especially for a small channel, so I truly appreciate that, as well as the effort you put into your scripts and editing. Great work so far man, You've gained a subscriber in me!
he just put into words exactly what dragon ball fans are: people with zero comprehension skills that shit on things they can’t even understand. this video is a perfect example of that lmao. Granolah was one of the greatest arcs yet y’all can’t even stop complaining to see that
They had something strong with Vegeta, in Moro he called himself defender of Namek And him standing up for pride, and letting Granolah nearly kill him isn’t giving up, he wanted to help Granolah change like he did. I think we could finally have people who are vegetas friends instead of goku’s growing army, which would be really nice to see in my opinion; Granolah and Vegeta actually bonding.
this really should have been vegetas arc, i feel like bardock and goku was just kinda forced in there bc cant have an arc without goku right? and they just threw bardock in there for some "Development"
and left her wife and 2 children fatherless, after all the "no one harm my family (and cabba)" speech during ToP to asspull himself up against jiren? shut the hell up
I never thought i'd wish for the Dragon Ball franchise to end, but then I saw the Granolah Arc. This series is being ran into the ground with each new arc, i swear to god.
@@calamityclash0018We get actual development with Vegeta, approach a new and interesting idea with a survivor or the Saiyan's murderous ways coming for revenge, Frieza has actually become a major threat again. This arc is actually the best DBS has ever been but previous arcs like TOP have built up a lot of negative hype and people are more willing to try to hate anything new that comes out rather than giving a fair chance.
@@leultrainstinct406it’s better than gt and I get the vegeta and goku says in pride thing after the buu saga vegeta didn’t have as much says in pride as he had before and goku who had none gradually lost it and I get the ui too he went into sign to tap into his emotion so he could create his own form but I can’t justify the hope thing
@@STKHub”fascinating critique” Bro is literally just crying and complaining without even understanding the arc lmao. This is easily one of the worst videos which is a common trend on this channel.
@@leultrainstinct406 Ironically, you don't explain how and just whine about how he's incorrect. Do you want me to even reply and ask why you say so, or was that purely to counter signal my compliment? Lol.
@@leultrainstinct406 I personally found the Ultra Instinct lore argument quite strong. Goku is learning a cool and sober mind, which he learned under Popo, as a MSSJ, with Mastered Ultra Instinct in the Tournament of Power, and... now True Ultra? It's repetitive by definition and really fails to capture the concept in any narratively enticing way. By far, Ultra Instinct is the coolest sober aesthetic - but is that really it? Cool moves and a sick design that don't even always fit well with the minimalist fighting approach, like a giant ki avatar? It's failing its minimalism and failing to make new ground. If you don't value treading new water and pioneering narratively complementary choreography, that's perfectly fine. I'm not here to lecture you on your preferences. But from a critical narrative perspective, the video is totally a strong argument, assuming the on-screen evidence cited isn't miscontextualized.
I wouldn’t say the wish for his sons to thrive Didnt do anything other than make them survive planet vegeta, because he states “sons” and raditz is obviously not thriving
This arc has made the entire dragon ball franchise theme of training to become stronger entirely pointless when now they can just wish to become stronger.
I want to say thank you to this channel for summing up these arcs for me. I didn't get into Super because I thought the storyline sucked, but I had no idea it would get this bad.
Great video as usual, your points are well spoke and I agree, Black Frieza's introduction without any proper arc before or after is beyond sad and an obvious cheap way of ending an arc after they wrote themselves into a corner.
I actually like the ending. It is a massive shock and reinforced the idea that hard work is more valuable than just wishing for power. A bit more elaboration on Frieza's training arc would have been cool but, we know all we strictly need to know about it.
I thought Frieza's arrival was decently foreshadowed. In Moro we learn that Chambers of Time are spread throughout the galaxy, in Broly we see Frieza humbled to all hell, the Heeters expand on his whole enterprise, and despite being absent Frieza is the name on everyone's lips. Every fifth page is "that was Frieza" or "we'll need to locate and deal with Frieza". What more setup do you need?
that’s the whole point. it started with revenge, then he lets go of it by the end. It’s called granolah the survivor, had he kept getting involved and chasing revenge he would’ve died.
@@leultrainstinct406 that doesn’t in anyway justify throwing him away like a used up plot point. Stop being stupidly obtuse. Also, he literally gets involved anyway in the final fight. Your whole comment is mute. I’ll never understand you fanboys trying so hard to make stupid shit sound smart. You’re like Snyder fans.
I wish the heaters were expanded on more they couldve potentially have been one of the best antagonists in dbs. The idea of a branch of the frieza force turning on frieza because of their own evil greed is such a cool concept. I also love the way that gas died. Frieza didnt just kill him, the wish had forced Gas' body to keep aging as an attempt to stay the strongest in the universe in the face of black Frieza in which his body could not handle causing him to turn to dust.
Moro and Granolah's arcs both suffer from GT syndrome. They had some super cool ideas, moro using magic and eating planets. but then he eats a robot and devolves into a stupid fight. Granolah feels like they toyotaro was told to stretch for a year and a half. But the fights took place in really unique areas and had some cool elements.
GT syndrome makes no sense. Plenty of fictional shows and movies have good concepts and bad execution. This is not a GT unique flaw. lol you GT haters are so pathetic that you have to bring up GT in a conversation it’s not even relevant in.
Toyotaru was seen as the hopeful heir to the Dragon Ball series, but now, there’s just a constant stream of odd writing decisions, inconsistencies, and complete disconnect from the story its a sequel too. I don’t really get why either, like maybe he’s trying to mimic the Toriyama way of writing, where he doesn’t plan the story ahead, because it feels like that, like there’s no planning.
What doesn't make sense with Gas' zombie power up is that it goes against how Ki works. Ki is made and cultivated further through the combination of genki (life force), yuuki (courage) and shouki (right-mindedness). How is his Ki supposed to shoot up so high when a third of its core requirements is being drained to near zero each second?
Because of the wish he was slowly dying to become the strongest became a price he wish to be the strongest mortal and his mistake is fighting Saiyans cause it took away his whole life just to be that strong
That's something you said just now though, the actual series never actually goes into any kind of detail about how Ki works other than it being energy that you focus or whatever, so the zombie thing doesn't exactly break any official rules as they are altlready so vague and non defined.
@@ginogatash4030 Incorrect. What I said was explicitly stated by Toriyama himself in the Super Exciting Guide. Furthermore, this is alluded to at several points in the manga such as Karin listing what attributes are required to endure the Choshinsui. I'd advise you fact check what someone is saying next time you claim someone to be making things up because this has become a very ironic case of ignorance.
@@thefirstprime0124 That doesn't address what I said though. Ki is made up of and cultivated by the balance and heightening of all three, not that of two and the absence of one.
Ok, I've only watched the first few minutes, but I wanna leave my opinion on the subject of Black Freeza being cheap hype. I don't believe that's the case, we're getting absurdly close to the original end of Dragon Ball, there needs to be a "Final" villain for this section of the story that leads to the last Tenkaichi Budokai, and I firmly believe Freeza is that villain. The arc we're getting now regarding Goten and Trunks serves 3 purposes in my opinion: 1) A break from the Gokuandvegetaism that Super has had through 80% of it's run. 2)A way to integrate the Superhero movie into the manga continuity. 3) A breather before the final confrontation of the story(Or this section of the story if/when they decide to go beyond the end of Z) Only time will tell if it's cheap hype or build up for a final confrontation, but seeing where the story is at in terms of continuity, it needs to start wrapping shit up and Freeza is the perfect bow on top imo. I hope the eventual confrontation with Freeza has some stakes or some consequences for the story, if not, it will just be "Resurrection F 2: He's black now" lol.
I appreciate the comment bro, you make a good point and that would be a logical progression for the story, but the thing is that Dragon Ball in its current state post the anime's conclusion isn't very logical. Would anyone have guessed that the sequel film to Broly would be a CGI Movie about the Red Ribbon Army returning (again) and Superheroes? No not really, being 'logical' fans many fans (myself included) felt that Cooler would be made canon next but that didn't happen. Another logical things fans have been predicting for years has been the return of the DBS Anime, we've had 'leaks' for years now but now confirmation on the sequel series of one of the most popular Dragon Ball series of all time. Dragon Ball in its current state is at the mercy of Toriyama's whims and wants (fair enough he did create it) as now he's so senior that there are no editors he has to listen to to shape his stories in a way that have a higher chance of pleasing most fans. But ultimately you're right, maybe Black Freeza will return... maybe he won't lol
@@CAGExplains I don't believe it's a matter of Toriyama's whims, but rather the opposite, I feel like Toriyama really doesn't want to work on this series anymore, he's been done for decades. His only "passion projects" regarding DBS are Battle of Gods and Superhero(As he expressed his love for this movie a lot more than for the previous two). But besides those two projects? I'm certain it has been Toei and Toyotaro asking Toriyama for more, rather than them just waiting for him to pull the trigger whenever he wants, and we can see this in DBS, where the TOP constantly recycled previous character moments because I'm guessing Toriyama just didn't give detail for anything in that arc, and the Black arc is literally just a worse version of Toyotaro's AF manga, an evil Kai uses Goku in some way to create a half Saiyan/Half Kai enemy that is super strong? C'mon man lmao. Moro and Granolah also read like Toyotaro material, it might just be me, but they feel very different from the rest of Super. In the end it's a matter of whether you are optimistic about Black Freeza or not. Honestly? With how Toyotaro brought back characters like Buu, Uub, Android 73 and Bardock, I very much doubt he will forget about Black Freeza. If there's one thing Toyotaro likes it's continuity(Cuz god knows it ain't good panneling and small text boxes, I love toyotaro but goddamn that man needs some panneling lessons from Toriyama)
@@RollinsFN dude the future trunks arcs is one of the best in DB period. Not the best so don't take that out of context. I couldn't stand Xicors story from AF as it was baby vegeta all over again. With goku black, it completes the cycle of hatred and consequence of using a time machine in the most ironic and brutal scenes: goku killing bulma. It was signifying all things that goku and trunks has done created goku black, who is also a time paradox after beerus kills current zamazu. That's insane dude. A rogue Kai whose ideologies is filled with delusion of justice. It's where he's not far off from the truth, but does justice in the most brutal way possible: multiversal genocide.
I also like how Zamasu has an obsession with Goku to the point of imitating his personality. It makes it rather creepy and It's one of the best roles of Goku's Seiyuu. Trunks and Mai's relationship was fire too. The ending was too rushed but yeah the Goku Black arc had a lot of potential but it got really sloppy in the end...
@@Thecor13 Future Trunks is legitimately the single worst arc in DB, in my opinion. The time travel plot is completely nonsensical and breaks the rules established in DBZ, characters are stupid to the point of being enraging, and the ending of the arc is the single worst thing I've ever seen/read, it's the most blatant Deus Ex Machina I've ever seen put to paper/screen. Not to mention, by the end of the arc, it would have literally been better if Trunks and the gang had done nothing, being dead takes you to otherworld, deleting the timeline erases otherworld. Trunk's actions led to the erasure of Future Gohan, Goku, etc. If he had done nothing he'd be in otherworld chilling with them all right now, which is a better fucking fate in my opinion. A disaster of an arc, I'd rather watch paint dry, because that at least won't make me angry. I don't think the AF manga was any better though, it just has the advantage of not being official.
Ichigo didn't "just" get powerful and decide to win against grimjow. They were equal and he was distracted because he knew his appearance was causing his girlfriend emotional distress and when she validated him he got his head in the game.
@@billyboleson2830 partially true but it was always about orihime regardless. Ichigo himself didn't realize he was partially fighting selfishly until grimjow pointed it out to him. That he knew he really just wanted to get back at him for what he did. That he wasn't just here to be a knight in shining armor and he was just really pissed off and wanted to battle as much as grimjow.
I remeber my friends loving this arc thinking it was amazing but basically every issue you've brought up I had tried to say to them and they just waved it off telling me i didnt understand writing. Thank you for making this video someone finally had to say it
I just realized this, I’m not sure, but did Granola try reviving his MOM?! Seems like a missed opportunity. It would have given Goku and Vegeta a reason to help Granola. Maybe Wiss tells Berrus that a set of dragon balls were used some where, Vegeta overhears, and prompts him to get involved, to make up for some of his peoples mistakes.
I believe there is a limit to reviving people. If they have been dead too long the soul has no body to go to. You could wish around it but you'll never get back what once was essentially.
@@omoddulus4933in the original dragon ball when piccolo fired a beam at goku and goku flys away without him realising when piccolo thinks he killed goku and he has been turned to ashes he shouts “there won’t be enough of you he body for even shenron to put together” so yeah there is a limit to how much they can revive a person
@@omoddulus4933That has never been mentioned as a thing. Actually Granola asks about reviving his whole race and is told that they would displace the newcomers by doing that, so if anything that confirms that you can bring back someone from that time
Same reason why doesn't Goku bring back Bardock. They could and as viewers it would be cool for them to do so but it would go against the narrative of letting go of the past that is important for both Vegeta and Granola this arc
Damn, Ichigo catching stray bullets, haven’t seen a Bleach sneak diss since the early-mid 2010’s 💀 Just in case someone wants an explanation.. He didn’t get a power up, he was always stronger, just holding back because he thought he was scaring Orihime, by becoming more hollow like, and reminding her of her brother, when she finally started showing confidence in him mask on or off, he stops holding back. Not to mention he was messing around a little, since he was giving into his hollow instincts of enjoying the heat of battle.
I know nothing about Dragon Balls, but your editing style and script made it really easy for me to follow along. I got really invested in a story I know nothing about haha. Amazing work!
14:23 yeah bro you forgot that whis blantly told goku to try and get his own verision of ultra instinct as mui is the state of the angels. And TUI is just the first step into gokus own version of ui.
My major issue of all of this is how much they are milking everything, especially Frieza. It makes the namek fight pointless if he always gets big power ups.
In general, I think the concepts introduced in this arc had great potential, and could hint towards more interesting things and story. - Ultra Instinct being teased toward being used as a technique rather then another transformation, thus Goku having to "make it his own" and incorporate it into his own style of fighting. - Goku showcasing that same concept with instant transmission and why He's a master at it vs copycats. - Ultra Ego's self destruction tendency creating the hilarity of Vegeta gaslighting himself into becoming stronger. - This arc in general fuels into furthering Vegeta's recent character arc of redemption for his villainous deeds - monkey's paw wishes, or ones that lead to nasty backfires, is something that aside from GT's last arc dragon ball hasn't really done much with afaik. Honestly everything leading up to the point where Gas and the Heeters stepping in felt pretty solid. But after that the writing goes to the gutter and eventually they decided to have freeza come in and end the story.
I don't like any of that. I don't like whis still being goku's mentor, and talking about how naive and experienced goku is. Come the hell on, the guy is like 50 years old and has spent the ENTIRETY of his life either training or fighting. There should be almost no one more experienced than he is. Or he should at least have had "developed his own style" way back when he was still a kid (which he did). I won't even get into how they massacred vegeta. They ruined his entire series-long character arc in super.
@@GraveUypohe basically already had ultra-instinct after landing on Namek (he’ll arguably even before that). UI definitely is a cool idea and fits in the series but it’s based off of lessons that have already been learned, in general this whole arc tries to progress the story by basically restarting many aspects of the story.
I was actually relieved when Frieza showed up out of nowhere and single handedly ended the entire arc in seconds. The arc itself had promise but grew really tedious. As much of a narrative cop out as ending it like that was, if nothing else, Frieza murcking the villains was weirdly satisfying since it put an end to what way a dragging, unfulfilling arc..... wait, does this mean Frieza is the hero of the arc? lol
on top of all it did not make sense that a 2 star dragon would have enough power to turn anyone into the mightiest regardless of the drawbacks. we saw throughout z that the dragons dont have power like that. and the family felt nothing towards their family members instantly moving on, to top it off granolah is forgotten once again in the future chapters. black frieza doesnt exist anymore and if the dbs broly movie happened doesnt that mean frieza visited the earth again to bring broly to fight goku n vegeta? like huh?
with the thrive thing i mean it doesnt throw all of gokus accomplishments out the window all of that is on his own.Just look at raditz the same wish was on his and he was still weak in todays standards and died.Thriving is just the grow and flourish,meaning he just wanted his sons to grow up and survive doesnt mean they cant die or feel pain or anythig.Its just so that they grow up.
I believe I saw someone point out that Bardock's "wish" was said sarcastically. Something like "Oh yeah! I got a GREAT wish for you! It's the best wish ever! I want my sons to thrive!"
Honestly this is what happens when you make your characters so op you end up having a hard time creating villains that can compete with them In my opinion morro is definitely a great idea for a villain since being able to take amd absorb energy is definitely a great ideo for a power amd definitely somethong that can give goku and vageta a hard time as it did my only complaint is that they could have written morro better
The problem is that absorption has been done three times before in Z with the androids, Cell and Buu. Cell has been overdue for a revisit for a while but there's not much to do with stealing power they haven't already done.
My main question about the Granolah arc was how strong is he. Let’s say power levels were still a thing. Let’s also say Granolah power level is 10 million. Is Gas’ power level 10 million and 1 or higher than that? They never really explain it
Wow I was being somewhat forgiving up until that wish made by Bardock. That is a greater character assassination in one panel of Goku than all of Super. How disgusting is it for Toyotaro to say that the guy who always is looking for a fight and will never ever stop to improve himself, is only the way he is because of a wish? Fuck that
The only issue i have with the arc is the introduction of wishing to be strong something that Granolah, Gas and Piccolo did yet Frieza, the mf who literally boasted of being strong without training wasn't the one to introduce that concept, crazy.
Frieza is ironically the symbol of hard work here. While others wished to be strong but as a result had messed up consequences and stipulations Frieza spent 10 years training and became the actual strongest.
Bardock: “I’d wish that my sons end up thriving”
Raditz:
They both died on the same day, the Dragon balls were already said to revive someone in OG, they choose to revive goku not Raditz
@@wilandcj Okay? Doesn't really disprove what I said though
Since one person was fated to thrive against another person fated to thrive it kinda cancelled each other out as both were equally fortunate plus piccolo
@@gayfrogs6985nah raditz is just thriving in hell 😂
@@keiviroque5666 that more so Toriyama forgetting characters exist 🤷🤷🤷🤷
They wrote themselves into a corner when they introduced Beerus and Whis, later Zeno. Worse even is making them Goku’s buddies. How can you take the villain seriously when goobers are sitting and snickering on the sidelines, waiting to hand you your own *****
All tension’s lost.
Hence Black Frieza being the result.
Yeah Beerus and Whis sticking around was a problem as soon as Resurrection F when they removed all of the tension from a rematch between Goku and Freeza. And now no matter how strong Goku gets Beerus is always stronger than him lol.
I wouldn't mind if Black Freeza finally whooped him lol
That 2 dragon ball thing was wack. I feel like they made it that way cuz they were lazy for the hunt for them.
@@kapayasiame3632 Very lazy! In my other video about the Granolah arc I pointed out that a 7 Dragon Ball hunt could've made for great character development for Granolah.
You all state that beerus takes away the tension when in fact they were useless in the future trunks arc. The tension was all but halted that arc and showed clearly the menacing nature of a Rouge Kai. What ultimately removes tension for most fans is the fact super takes place between the 10 year time skip of end of Z. Or known as the world peace arc.
@@Thecor13 the arc beerus wasn’t involved in was dealt with by zeno erasing though…
Which not only removed the tension of the consequence but made all their efforts seem for nothing
I was SO disappointed when I found out that Bardocks secret way to beating gas was just having hope
hope at all is bs.
lmao i guess he didn't have enough hope when he got swallowed up by frieza's supernova
@@Knifegash nah that's outta pocket 😂😭
Well..... Gas was young compared to the post wish gas, look how tall he got after getting the wish he aged atleast 50years, so basically bardock was fighting a toddler gas
Between Future Trunks and Bardock, I’m sick of Dragon Ball trying to explore hope-based powerups
This is my brand new form, Ultra Ego! **Proceeds to lose two times in a row**
“I get stronger the more I take damage”
“Oh no I took too much damage I can’t fight anymore blah 😴”
Isn't it better that the form isn't too over power. DB fans have literally been complaining about new forms coming out of nowhere. This gives a chance for the form to grow.
@@awesome395 Vegeta needs a win more than a new form needs room to breath. This new form amounts to nothing in this arc.
@cholamais-cj1wh yes but it needs to be earned too not obvious.
@@awesome395 That's a bad argument. Toyotaro can write any scenario where Vegeta wins. In hindsight, anything would be better than the awful arc that we got.
I think toyotaro's issue is that he builds the hype first, and THEN thinks what to do to live up to the hype, and then fails miserably
this is how I felt about Death Note after a certain someone dies
@redguard1607 that one was actually not the authors fault. It was intended to end there but his editors and publishers insisted he continue it and eventually he wrote himself into a corner so just ended it the way he did. He had no plans to carry on at all and had to just come up with sommething, rather than have it all planned out months ahead
@@rekscoper exactly, just stop watching after the incident and gucci
I thought the arc was super hype the entire way through.
@@redguard1607death note’s worst episode is better than the entirety of dragon ball super, never compare the two ever again 😂
Arc was so trash that Freeza showed up to put an end to it.
The only kind thing he's ever done 😂😂
And make it worse
The arc was fine in action at least 😂
@@smtandearthboundsuck8400 Nah it was the best part of the arc because it meant it was over.
*Frieza
The sad part about Bardock wish is... Damn, no love for Raditz, right?
It is weird how Dragon Ball FORGOT the brother of the protagonist, who need the former arch-enemy and the death of the protagonist to defeat
You must have not watched the video bardock literally said “I’d wish that my sons end up thriving” did you also not read the arc, my SONS not just goku he means goku and raditz
@@sejhehsidbdsbs6682 I've watched hehe but it is about how Goku ended up being the protagonist and throwing every powerlevel, but Raditz ended up being so so so much lesser
@@franciscoadasilvajr4514 because the wish ended with their death.
Training 😐 zenkai boost and the will to protect what raditz had was the power complex that's what all the saiyans in the saga had vegeta Napa and raditz felt like gods die to power cliffing all of em@@franciscoadasilvajr4514
@@sejhehsidbdsbs6682I don’t see how Raditz ended up thriving at all. Bro accomplished nothing exceptional in his entire life just to be killed by his own brother. Honestly hoping that Raditz gets revived by the dragon balls somehow, otherwise that wish just makes no sense
Bardock was one of my favorite Dragon Ball characters because he was in no way special. Sure, he was the father of Goku, but other than that he's just a normal saiyan (hell even in his movie he isn't that unique) and while he attempted to save the saiyans from Frieza he ultimately failed.
There's just something so poetic (to me at least) about Bardock's failure and (in the movie) seeing a vision of Goku as he's killed by Frieza. It also reinforces a strong theme of Dragon Ball, that strength (especially Goku's) is earned, not given. Goku's lineage wasn't exceptional by any means, but he became one of the strongest mortals in the world. That's powerful stuff.
Toriyama himself admits that he could never write a story like the Bardock movie, and I personally think he shouldn't have messed with the character at all.
This (at least, to me) is my least favorite part of the entire arc. It's cool Bardock came up again, but honestly, if he was gonna be retconned like this, I would've rathered him not shown up at all.
*For everyone replying about "strength is earned, not given," I'm not talking about DBS bullshit. I'm talking about early DB.*
"strength is earned, not given. Especially Goku" yeah just like when Goku got literal god powers just by holding hands. Earned indeed
@@Carbon_Based_Life_FormDBS exist as a alternative world to me. BS power ups, Goku Black arc was inconsistent, and making Goku a literal retard that has to remember the training he went through with Popo and Kami while training with Whis.
What about Broly then? Dude never trained seriously in his entire life and wiped both Goku and Vegeta in 1 hour. The only reason that made them become strong is because they are sayans but talent is something you are born with and not earned
@@dade97asd96he was literally the strongest saiyan in existence when he was a mere infant,You can argue about others but broly being as strong as he is,is justifiable
ignoring the Granolah arc. i feel like DB minus still worked for Bardock, he was still somewhat a regular saiyan, just one that cared a bit more for his fam. like you could with a few minor edits work the OG Bardock special and Minus together into one.
heck the expanded prequel bits of the Broly movie still had Bardock Die when Freeza Blew up the planet trying to stop it.
that's how i feel about it atleast.
I never read the DB manga, so this is just so funny to hear conceptually. The story was so sh*t that Freeza just crashes the party, ends the plot, kicks everyone's butt and says "Cool, finally won and got my revenge for real, only took a few decades" and leaves without further elaborating.
Same. This was HILARIOUS to listen to as someone disinterested in the Super manga, lol
As someone who read the manga this shit was funny as hell. I can’t imagine how dumb it sounds for someone who never read it
@@Wade_in_your_waterI’ve read up to top and I felt like after reading some of the manga things were going not as great then they do and ass pull with bardock and freezer
@@ellisp276 the Moro arc is fantastic, read that, then drop it til another good arc happens and watch recaps
@@Wade_in_your_waterno. The Moro arc starts off amazing and then falls apart horribly as it progresses.
My biggest problem with Bardock's wish is that it only makes sense if you ignore Raditz. The results of his wish don’t make sense given what we know about how Raditz's life turned out. Raditz is the weakest saiyan we see on screen, lives his life as the slave of a slave, and gets killed by his own brother on a planet no one cared about.
Like usual we are expected to forget that Raditz exists and that Bardock supposedly loved his sons equally.
Goku was the weakest of all of them when raditz was introduced they both died on the same day
@OMAR-vk9pi Yes but Goku got stronger, Raditz didn't.
@OMAR-vk9pi Raditz can hardly be said to have "thrived" or even had a decent life. Ergo Bardocks wish only makes sense if you ignore that Raditz exists.
Maybe he thrived in a different timeline .if not that wish is stupid because radditZ is gone and I would rather have him back then Frieza
i mean maybe raditz was supposed to thrive but just died too early
Freeza might get a pass cause he's an existing character and people have been wanting to see him return after the Tournament of Power.
But narratively, this would be the equivalent of Beerus showing up randomly at the end of the Cell saga, one-shot destroyed Cell and then just phased out.
Replace Beerus with Raditz
@@connork9745 Yeah, but it's funny that Freeza himself would be the perfect villain to use in this metaphor as well.
Not really, Frieza was already a plot point. And people are only upset cause it didn’t jump right into BF arc and did Earth stuff
@@denzelamaniampong4933 I said might. And it was just an opinion.
@@marksunboxingzoneno. the difference is beerus isn’t a threat. frieza is a villain who showed up to take down another villain that tried to betray him. then he one shots the main characters to show that he doesn’t care for them. and the only reason he didn’t kill them is because they help him get stronger to pursue his own goals of ruling.
Well, this is what happens when you get a fan mangaka to write the official story lol. And it’s even worse because the actual author is the most forgetful man in the world
"Most forgetful man in the world" 😂😂😂😂😂😂🤝
it whould be worse if a dumbass american wrote it mosty if he was from the south.
More than Araki?
@@Potato_Quality7 yes
@@Lord_Simpwalker Still can't be more forgetful than Araki's FANBASE ITSELF
The granola arc felt like a fan manga. And i think its gonna stay that way if they keep trying to one up the next biggest bad, we have plenty of characters with lore to revist and explore but its gone just as soon as it appears. All for more shiny transformations and character regression
Nah bro that's disrespectful to fan manga. There are some fan manga that are infinitely better than the garbage that is dragon ball super
@@Alpha_di_colore some.
Lol did yall forget Toyotarou started by making fan manga he was the one who made Dragon Ball AF. So it Super feels like a fan manga it technically is with Toriyama's help.
Should have been a dragon quest character
DB Multiverse is way better than DBS
This why the timeline in DragonBall is very bad here. They’ve retcon everything that Toriyama has written over the years, and it happened in a single wish that Bardock has made. Seriously a stupid wish is the reason that Goku has become powerful in the first place.
Not by years of hard training, and not years of hardship that Goku had to go through to become a martial arts master. This is so stupid.
You could argue that it wore off after Goku hit his head
Eh...it's more of a translation error since in jp bardock wish is for his sons to "grow up strong and healthy" for which they used the word thriving but the word had another meaning too (being successful) to which the people misinterpreted as the reason why goku is so strong up till now and the reason he was able to beat so many of his enemies.
The fact that Raditz died like a chump and was considered a bum I doubt the wish boosted Goku that much. But tbh even if it hypothetically did it doesn't really matter since Goku did train like hell for decades.
Bardock literally wish for his son to have plot armor.
No. Goku becoming powerful is thanks to him, the meetings he had and everything else.
The wish is the reason he didn't die.
Don't forget Goku was still weaker than Raditz. He became stronger by training, especially after King Kai. The wish did not have any effect anymore.
This arc was literally the epitome of flanderization of dragon ball making every fight this arc just people saying “Im the strongest” “nuh uh IM the strongest” “oh wait no it’s ME”
That's a summary and could be good but that's a bad summary.
If you don't want to be put in a mental hospital turn off your brain while watching DBS
Best advice I've heard all day 😂
@@CAGExplains gotta keep it real 😂
@@CAGExplainst's like super dragon Ball heroes just gotta turn your brain off
nothing will improve with that sort of mindset
Funny, never had to do that for Z or GT.
i think it was good up until gas just got super strong out of kinda nowhere, and obviously black freeza
Now for Frieza they were Saying Frieza is coming Frieza is coming all the time now if they said this and Frieza never came when he did then what would be the point
@@unspeakableflame420 they said he was coming *ONCE* all else they did is say they want to take out Frieza at some point
@@GogitoGTHD I don't understand how we're supposed to see frieza as a threat since the writers decided to make beast Gohan the strongest
@Frieza1500 he isnt
@@Metro.... beast has nothing on frieza rn, u on sum if u think beast gohan can 1 shot UI goku and UE vegeta like that
Bro your editing style is so freaking amazing! So happy to see you back and creating videos! Cant wait to watch this and Im looking forward to seeing more uploads from you!
Edit: Im got around to watching the full video and wow! Thank you so much for the shoutout. Your content is really good man. Keep it up!
Thanks for the support bro! As I said before 2023 is our year, the videos won't make themselves lol, that being said I'm not gonna make another Dragon Ball video this long for a while though 😂
Already editing a new video for a gaming related channel I want to start 🔥
@@CAGExplains lol I feel u bro! Im gonna keep supporting! Glad to see u back again!
@@CAGExplains you know I'm happy to join your journey across the galaxy in becoming one of the most well known RUclipsrs
That kinda sounded cheesey
@@justinsdenbot
@@gregkareem9824 danm💀💀
This is literally the definition of a canon filler arc wtf
You might just be stupid lol
Keep in mind that Bardock said "I'd wish that my sons end up thriving". SONS. Plural. I guess the dragon didn't keep it in mind.
Could've been Raditz being placed with Vegeta's gang, and Goku being raised by Gohan.
0:17 Black Frieza is a certified hood classic
Black (Airforce Activity) Freeza wanted all the smoke! 😂🔥
Strongly disagree, I’m tired of seeing frieza obtain new forms that (without color) are nearly identical to his base form.
Dragon Ball was never supposed to be dragged on this long, they more they drag and milk it, the more retcons happen.
Just trying to milk goku until he has nothing left to give he’s literally lost all the martial arts he learnt in dragon ball and now he just gets killed for power ups because the stroy has been going too long
It’s not even the retcons that are the problem. I’m fine with retcons, they happen in a lot of media, one piece, Star Wars etc. it’s the bad writing that’s the problem.
I actually disagree. There’s enough meat on the bones and setting to create really great material. Mediocre writer can’t bring it out tho.
@@greezythumpsGoku and Vegeta really need to pass the baton .
Toriyama's failure is his obsession with Goku. If he could have let him go, and made Gohan the focus, things could have progressed more simply, without the need for new forms, new extremes and new foes.
Goku should have never come back from Namek. Gohan should have had his own Dragon Ball-type adventure series until he reached his teens, like his father. Then, naturally, we get a Z-type series again, but now it's Gohan and his son. And when the father passes,the son becomes the focus.
And on and on down the bloodline. Forever.
I feel that an editor is needed to reel in both Toriyama/Toro when it comes to the second act and the third/final act in each story arc. That’s what made the Cell saga work so well, as Toriyama’s then Editor, forced him to create the Androids that we come to love today. Based on some old interviews, Toriyama’s editors really forced him to be more thoughtful when it came to conflict and resolution between antagonists and protagonists, often finding ways to prolong and grow characters with multiple encounters and interactions.
Imagine how great some of the DBS manga chapters would be if someone actually challenged Toriyamas’ summary outlines, changing final bosses/antagonists, and ultimately retaining character growth and motivations that aren’t on par with a fan fiction written and acted by a five-year-old banging toys together.
Toriyama has ultimately become the West’s issue with George Lucas; where there was other talented people involved with their earlier body of work, but are cut from modern day projects. What we’re left with are suits at Toei Animation becoming “yes men” and Toriyama not being creatively challenged to tell proper stories with build up, hype, much less character growth that doesn’t involve fisticuffs. The last Dragonball movie was an embarrassment when it came to the transformations of both Piccolo and Gohan. Not how it was portrayed, but how the characters got to their transformations. The Dragonball Relaunch itself has been a mix of good and bad moments, but mostly the latter.
Look at all that potential wasted build-up leading up to Frieza’s appearance after training in some pocket dimension. The fact that there’s hardly ever a tense moment knowing Whis or Beerus lurks behind the next page turn? Reducing Goku’s intelligence down to another Homer Simpson clone! I get this franchise is suppose to sell toys to grown men, but the quality of writing feels extremely lazy, even for a gag comic guy like Toriyama.
why one piece is king for me best growth and story telling in shounen not even even close
@@vincenthammons-kd9duThe Saobody to Marineford arcs was amazing for Luffy’s development.
I feel like the meme has always been that Dragonball is like watching a kid bang action figures together. But this REALLY is actually like watching a kid band action figures together and each one just gets a quick thing to be like "Aw, he's so strong, he can beat anybody!" before they go right into a fight and basically just do boring generic action until the plot ends.
@@dethhollow Nailed it lol.
Very very well said and I agree with every sentiment especially the editor take in the cell saga was a great point I’ve said in the past.
But I’m just ready for disappointment and mediocrity with the writing to the point I don’t even feel toriyama even wants to be challenged at this age and
Will weight bullet points for the tournament of power and the others fill the gaps it’s like it’s hard for me to care about this when the writing is ass but has its moments in moro arc
Or no character development
Honestly some character regression going all around not even just goku making the same mistakes not learning lessons he was to learn even in fukatsu no F it’s like be for real this is a lesson he learned so long ago and falls victim to it again and again like he’s a idiot.
Bardock has been getting the short end of the stick for a while now. The original, uncaring, normal Saiyan him is SO MUCH better then the "anti-hero" version of him Toriyama has been pushing. He so forgot the point and set up he made for his character.
The bardock tv special isnt canon so how is he doing that lmao?
I don't even know why bring bardock up. he died a billion years ago, let the guy's soul rest. He wasn't even special, he was just a guy. He was so not meant to be a character that he doesn't even have his own design, he's just "goku but with a scar and wearing different clothes".
Ironic the old Bardock a borderline one dimensional character has more character than Super Bardock.
Yes, I agree, wishing for powerups is the worst decision ever implemented IMO. Even though we had the occasional Zenak boost and other minor ass pulls, what made me fall in love with Dragonball as a kid was the concept of getting to the next level through hard work.
And it is literally stated that Granola is a threat but due to his lack of experience and training that Goku and Vegeta have through their hard work that they could beat him. Meanwhile Gas is a rage monster that is reduced to decrepit bones by his abusive brother that he is only a tool for. When it comes to the narrative here, wishing for power doesn't grant real "strength", especially when everyone gets bodied at the end by Frieza who just became the real strongest in the universe through 10 years of hard work.
@@joelsasmad There being Time Chambers everywhere in the universe is getting boring as well. I mean they introduced the Time Chamber with some rule you can only enter the room for an X amount of hours or something. Now it is being used as an easy way to power up characters.
Oh Vegeta lost a fight? Just go in the room for a day or 2 and get stronger again.
Everything inside the Super universe is just a bit to convenient for the story to progress... and it is boring.
Vegeta suddenly being able to use instant transmission for a single time was some bs as well.
@@filthyklownzssb4589The time chamber has always been a weird convenience the heroes should have used when they faced danger.
I for one find it cool that the villain used the method the heroes have against them.
@@joelsasmad Pretty sure Piccolo said you can only visit the chamber for 48 watt-hours durning your lifetime.
@@joelsasmad I even vaguely remember Popo mentioning the door would simply disappear after X amount of hours was reached.
It really kinda felt like Toyotaro thought the Granolah arc was a good idea, began writing it, but about 10 chapters in he got tired of it and said “how do i both get hella cash and finish this with the least amount of effort possible”
Someone who analyses the manga actually said that this is pretty much what Toyotaro's problem is.
Toriyama wrote it. Toyotaro came up with the original idea but Toriyama rewrote it to what it is now.
@@ghoulchan7525 and that person was probably talking out of their ass. People who know what’s going on would know that’s not what happened especially since even in it’s low points it’s keeping it’s themes consistent and building on what came before. The worst part of the arc was that it was mostly three fights over one day with nothing else.
Sounds like that what he was thinking when he created db super.
granolah was easily one of the greatest arcs in all of db. i actually feel bad y’all don’t have the attention spans to understand it lmao
bro i felt an ice cold water bucket after they revealed bardock's wish like holy shit that crushes everything about classic dragon ball
Not at all. Look at Raditz. The wish never ensured that his sons would love and be powerful long term, it is just likely why they survived their home planet's destruction.
Surviving and thriving are not the same thing. Raditz sure as hell did not Thrive
Vegeta lacking in... Saiyan pride.... DO YOU EVEN KNOW WHO YOU ARE WRITING FOR!?
That man goes about Saiyan pride like it was his life line
What do you mean he's lacking in Saiyan Pride!?
"You say I'm arrogant, I say Damn right, that's pride, pride in the Saiyan I am, the mighty prince of the ultimate warrior race!"
This quote was said by Vegeta, TWO ARCS AGO! Granted the quote was from the anime, but still. This man has never lacked Saiyan pride. If anything, he had too much Saiyan Pride.
WTF, Super!
😂😂that completely came out of nowhere . Vegeta feels guilty for some random guy he just met.
@@kapayasiame3632 He was feeling guilty literally in the last arc lol
The thing is that that pride he had in the anime was a different. It was a pride in being the ultimate warrior race that usually was shown in a very negative light as hubris that is usually punished and makes him an emotional wreck. The whole idea here is that arc Vegeta has finally understood what real pride is. Not being the strongest or getting revenge, but "staying true to your nature and sticking to your convictions. That's true of any tribe there is."
@@joelsasmadYeah but as people turn their brain off while "reading" they don't know.
Oh man it's really nice to see a series reborn after 30 years only to fail arc after arc while fans keep sniffing that copium and telling us the next one is gonna be sooooo gooood
EDIT: A 30 years series reborn after 10-15 years sorry
it’s nice to see dragon fans fail to have reading and comprehension skills arc after arc even after 30 years lmao
@@leultrainstinct406 my scanner is detecting copium levels 12 times above the legal limit on your blood stream. I'll contact the local authorities.
@@leultrainstinct406you're coping sooo hard lil bro
@@leultrainstinct406 buddy its dragonball this isn't a series where it takes any type of complex thinking to understand
honestly I completely understand Toei for not wanting to tackle Super past the ToP
I’m not even sure if I want the anime to come back anymore I don’t want to see this arc again
The anime should just make Moro the main antagonist for the Granolah arc. Toss the heaters (boring villians) and keep everything else.
@ellisp276 the super anime didn't have a Manga to go off of and fix or improve the narrative. So what ended up happening is the manga came out after and changed and improved some stuff of the anime.
What we could see happen is the reversal where the Manga granolah arc is out first and its bad. However the anime could fix it up and change somethings to make it much better.
@@ellisp276I think with a few retcons and rewrites it can work.
@@Nersiustrue, but we would need quite a lot 😂
Vegeta is the living embodiment of Saiyan Pride.
And for him to lost sight of it came out of nowhere. It wasn’t built up properly
Vegeta has a permanent kick me sign nail gunned on his back
It's just crazy how he gets punished for the pride of the Saiyans while Goku gets uplifted.
I always thought the writing was intelligent insulting from The Prince to The Low Class Warrior.
It's a manipulation and an intelligent insulting scenario. Where the Prince is mostly treated like the Low Class Warrior while The actual Low Class Warrior gets Prince/King treatment.
When you actually think about it this is exactly what it is.
@@NE-oj4be it's an insult for him to be called the prince but treated like the low Class Warrior. That's intelligent insulting to me.
I thought he lost that pride after the Boo saga, but he gets reseted every new arc of super so...
9:42
This is not quite what happened to Ichigo.
What Ichigo actually did, was that he was holding back his power, because he realized he was scaring Orihime with his Hollow - which he was still afraid of -, making him hold back and not focus on the battle.
Then after hearing Orihime begging him to just win, he got the right motivation.
Bardock situation could've done something like that...
If...
The DB IP wasnt big enough yo be able to oversell any mediocre media they made, so they don't have to care for the product.
Bleach haters have not read the story, or maybe they expected the same level of characterization as dragon ball and most of it goes over their heads
@@wumbojet bleach is infinitely better than dbs in characterization
@@ghostface1385 exactly, not even close. It's the difference between one of the best character writing in shonen jump history and literally nothing at all.
Finally, someone explained. As a bleach fan who dives into thematic breakdowns, that part in the video kinda pissed me off lmao
I mean... besides the Orihime part, that kind of boils down to the same thing, right? He wasnt strong enough so he just... _poof_ "now I'm strong enough"ed
What the hell were the rest of the Z fighters doing during all of this!!?? It would of been nice to see them prepare for this fight since goku and Vegeta are known for screwing shit up like they always do.
Lol. The Z fighters should understand that Goku + Vegeta are warriors first and heroes second. I don't understand how they aren't prepared for any screw ups since both Goku and Vegeta have a history for fucking shit up
Like they've been useful lately...
@@illseeyaonthedarksideofthemoon Bro wants Tien to speak up
@@nathanielchery9807 bro we all do. one day tien would clap fr 💀
@@Metro.... Facts, they really be selling with the universe on the line. I'm not trusting them to do shit 😂
“Dragon balls worst antagonist is Morro” bruh Jiren is so bad you forgot he existed
Fr 😂
“I seek what lies beyond strength.”
*A few minutes later*
“Strength is everything!”
I really love Granohla's design, it's just a shame he was treated so poorly
treated poorly? He’s one of the greatest characters in db.
@@leultrainstinct406 Wishing for ultimate strength and still losing to a person who made the same wish as you isn't a great character. It's like a 5th graders first attempt at a story.
I couldn’t process the whole arc man, all l saw was ultra instinct an ego developing while two buffoons try and be the strongest only for frieza to pull up uninvited to the cookout. It was good for me since I had nothing else to do at school
He looks like Jak but without the goatee
@@JustSaiyanDudecrazy how you say that when associating character to raw power is exactly what a 5th grader would do💀
You’re focusing on power levels when that was never the point. Granolah made that wish because he became obsessed with revenge due to years of carrying guilt from never having the power to save his people before, and now he had an opportunity to redeem himself. But in doing so, he literally burns away his entire lifespan and casts away all the people he cares for, and almost became the same as the destroyers who killed his race when he threatens the sugarians city. Then by the end of the arc, he throws revenge away even when he had a chance to kill the person who killed his mom because the damage it causes. But yea just ignore all that because he lost
If you keep reading DB you absolutely will make a video like this again next year. But that isn't a bad thing, it's fun to roast bad writing.
-On the topic of worst arcs for me I think Buu still is the worst when its purely Toriyama+Toyo content. Buu just blatantly throws away almost every new thing introduced like 8 chapters after it appears. As a fellow one piece fan, seeing how Oda makes sure everything introduced is relevant the arc just gets worse every time I read it. Recently, I also learned that Toriyama also isnt a very good writer without his editors CARRYING him since his editors backed off for the buu arc.
-Granolah was just kinda there and that's about it. Like moro he has a cool ability but it just gets replaced by "hit him harder" later on same with gas
-MUI getting one shotted is kinda stupid cuz it loops back to your point about goku forgetting things hes learned already since in the 23rd tournament tien literally uses a clone against him so goku going "what's going on?!?! What are you talking about vegeta????" Is just ridiculous
-UI I would have handled in the manga is having goku try to use it with super saiyan forms in moro then unlocked sign as well in the same arc instead of just getting silver immediately it was too soon.
-The bardock flashbacks are just whatever and it's just trying to make him out to be more important than he actually is when Z bardock I like because hes a nobody and unimportant in the grand scheme of things.
-Remember when goku tried using his emotions against moro while in sign like against gas but he got bodied like 3 pages later.
-ULTRA EGO LMAOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
-Black Frieza was hype at first but now we probably have to wait like a year to see anything related to him again. He'll probably be the last stepping stone till we finally go past end of z.
Overall the arc I'm mixed on and I loved the moro arc(ch.61 and the first 10ish pages of 65 excluded)
Great video man
Sorry for the long comment
Probably the best comment. I agree with everything you said
i hate the weird sign emotions combination, stick with mui
Buu is the worst arc💀? What a opinion, I personally loved the buu arc.
buu arc best arc L take + ratio lil bro
i dont understand why people hate the buu arc it has one of my favorite things about dragon ball like fusion and majinn vegeta and buu was just pure evil he literally killed everyone
I'm not surprised about the UI retcons, they retconned to hell and back Super Saiyan Blue to just be another super saiyan form but stronger. They retconned UI just to have a new transformation obviously... 🙄
ultra instinct was never a retcon. y’all just never understood it
@@leultrainstinct406 I said that UI got retconned to accomodate a new Shiny form to produce merchandise, not that UI was retconned into existing.
Blue was never retconned, what do u even mean? It ALWAYS was explained as SSG’s super saiyan form . It got further details (such as the “power drain after every transformation Burst “ but that’s it.
Introducing “mastered” was never something remotely bad as its obvious you can master any form, and when u don’t, the backlash was explained.
Personally I hate “evolved” blue but it also didn’t retcon shit
@@ethangnasher3848again, they never retconned anything about it for any reason. It’s always been stated that ui is for angels, so mortals using it had their own versions. Which is what tui is. And it has the exact same design as omen wym shiny new form💀
@@leultrainstinct406that doesn't mean it's not garbage. What's different between this and UI besides one being stronger?
The entire DBS manga is a dumpster fire. I'm not sure what Toriyama was attempting to do by restarting Dragonball but it's so incoherent.
Honestly Dragon Ball Super feels like fan fiction. The OG series was great (all 42 volumes as well as both adapted tv series). It’s my favorite manga of all time. But Super feels a lot like how GT feels in the way that something just isn’t…right.
100% agree with you
@9:45 the reason why Ichigo pulled an "Ichigo" move was because he was holding back to some what of an extent because he didn't really wanna kill Grimjow until he was left with no other choice.
Yes, tbf it's not obvious how Ichigo's power is displayed in Bleach. I think most people know he has insane latent power, however it's never shown outright because Ichigo is the kind of person to not want to crush his enemies.
Ichigo's power is in reality higher than everybody else's. Plain and simple. (Except for Aizen pre-final getsuga) He just has little control, and has to actually allow it to come forth; then he just wins. When he realises he ABSOLUTELY MUST destroy his enemy, it all comes out.
Unlike something like One Punch Man, Ichigo has to actually wrestle with the idea of using his power rather than just having no choice but to spray his enemies on the wall.
Just looked up this Grimmjow dude and he has the most "kill me" face I've ever seen. Shounen MCs are the only ones that could struggle to kill that dude lmao
@@Dogan_TM If Bleach basically had Ichigo go less emotional we would just be watching Kenpachi, but with orange hair, while having Chainsaw Man level of blood to compliment it. So basically Berserk but you remove all the character development and anything tied to emotions, and put Guts in the Berserker armor 24/7
It’s not exactly that. It’s more that Ichigo had been struggling with his hollow side the whole arc. He didn’t want to accept that there was this monster inside of him. Grimmjow is basically trying to force Ichigo to just give in to his beastly instincts to fight and consume his enemy because that’s how he lives. But Ichigo is holding back from fully embracing that kind of strength especially because Orihime is there and his hollow form traumatizes her. But once Orihime tells Ichigo to do what he has to do to win, Ichigo finally let’s go of his reservations and let’s out his true strength
@@flameheadsheroBoohoo he got over it quick. It's just that the arcs lasted years. He technically got it (his hollow side) because of the life chain was getting eaten thanks to that bucket hat teacher provoking his transformation to save Rukia after his powers were taken away, but the story never calls him out.
Has to be said, your thumbnails are easily the best that I've seen thus far. Especially for a small channel, so I truly appreciate that, as well as the effort you put into your scripts and editing. Great work so far man, You've gained a subscriber in me!
I really appreciate that bro! I try to make the best content I can on all fronts, glad to have you as a subscriber! 🔥
Finally, someone can put in words how I feel about this arc
And with catchy music
I still have no idea ima go back to kindergarten and just say BAD
he just put into words exactly what dragon ball fans are: people with zero comprehension skills that shit on things they can’t even understand. this video is a perfect example of that lmao. Granolah was one of the greatest arcs yet y’all can’t even stop complaining to see that
@@leultrainstinct406not hating or nothing but how was Granolah the best arc yet? I’m just curious
@@marceresrellios1600 His first two sentences were a claim. the 3rd sentence was the proof
They had something strong with Vegeta, in Moro he called himself defender of Namek
And him standing up for pride, and letting Granolah nearly kill him isn’t giving up, he wanted to help Granolah change like he did.
I think we could finally have people who are vegetas friends instead of goku’s growing army, which would be really nice to see in my opinion; Granolah and Vegeta actually bonding.
this really should have been vegetas arc, i feel like bardock and goku was just kinda forced in there bc cant have an arc without goku right? and they just threw bardock in there for some "Development"
and left her wife and 2 children fatherless, after all the "no one harm my family (and cabba)" speech during ToP to asspull himself up against jiren? shut the hell up
@@jst1532 Bardock is used as a trump card for an essentially meaningless arc
Ye
I never thought i'd wish for the Dragon Ball franchise to end, but then I saw the Granolah Arc.
This series is being ran into the ground with each new arc, i swear to god.
you must’ve never seen gt that’s the exact feeling you’d get with every single arc
granolah is easily one of the greatest arcs.
@@leultrainstinct406why is it so great
@@calamityclash0018We get actual development with Vegeta, approach a new and interesting idea with a survivor or the Saiyan's murderous ways coming for revenge, Frieza has actually become a major threat again. This arc is actually the best DBS has ever been but previous arcs like TOP have built up a lot of negative hype and people are more willing to try to hate anything new that comes out rather than giving a fair chance.
Is not that it needs to end. It just needs to be well done again.
@@leultrainstinct406it’s better than gt and I get the vegeta and goku says in pride thing after the buu saga vegeta didn’t have as much says in pride as he had before and goku who had none gradually lost it and I get the ui too he went into sign to tap into his emotion so he could create his own form but I can’t justify the hope thing
Bejita: *meditates*
Goku: "What kinda fibbin' technique is that, Bejita?"
Do you mean Vegeta?
Huh💀
Fire video in every department. I loosely follow DBS, but you make it a fascinating centerpiece for narrative critique.
I appreciate your comment bro, glad you enjoyed the video 🔥
@@CAGExplains For sure, man. I'll recommend my friends your content. Keep up the great work!
@@STKHub”fascinating critique”
Bro is literally just crying and complaining without even understanding the arc lmao. This is easily one of the worst videos which is a common trend on this channel.
@@leultrainstinct406 Ironically, you don't explain how and just whine about how he's incorrect.
Do you want me to even reply and ask why you say so, or was that purely to counter signal my compliment? Lol.
@@leultrainstinct406
I personally found the Ultra Instinct lore argument quite strong. Goku is learning a cool and sober mind, which he learned under Popo, as a MSSJ, with Mastered Ultra Instinct in the Tournament of Power, and... now True Ultra?
It's repetitive by definition and really fails to capture the concept in any narratively enticing way. By far, Ultra Instinct is the coolest sober aesthetic - but is that really it? Cool moves and a sick design that don't even always fit well with the minimalist fighting approach, like a giant ki avatar? It's failing its minimalism and failing to make new ground.
If you don't value treading new water and pioneering narratively complementary choreography, that's perfectly fine. I'm not here to lecture you on your preferences.
But from a critical narrative perspective, the video is totally a strong argument, assuming the on-screen evidence cited isn't miscontextualized.
I wouldn’t say the wish for his sons to thrive Didnt do anything other than make them survive planet vegeta, because he states “sons” and raditz is obviously not thriving
Who knows what he’s doing in hell
@@ellisp276gettig his hair stuck in the soul scrubber
raditz is a adopt
@@ellisp276 suffering? Like every other bad person? Lol.
This arc has made the entire dragon ball franchise theme of training to become stronger entirely pointless when now they can just wish to become stronger.
Why the entirety of Dragon Ball Super is a narrative disaster*
There fixed it
I want to say thank you to this channel for summing up these arcs for me.
I didn't get into Super because I thought the storyline sucked, but I had no idea it would get this bad.
Great video as usual, your points are well spoke and I agree, Black Frieza's introduction without any proper arc before or after is beyond sad and an obvious cheap way of ending an arc after they wrote themselves into a corner.
I actually like the ending. It is a massive shock and reinforced the idea that hard work is more valuable than just wishing for power. A bit more elaboration on Frieza's training arc would have been cool but, we know all we strictly need to know about it.
I thought Frieza's arrival was decently foreshadowed.
In Moro we learn that Chambers of Time are spread throughout the galaxy, in Broly we see Frieza humbled to all hell, the Heeters expand on his whole enterprise, and despite being absent Frieza is the name on everyone's lips. Every fifth page is "that was Frieza" or "we'll need to locate and deal with Frieza".
What more setup do you need?
Granolah really did feel like he got left behind at a certain point of the Granolah arc. I hope it's not too long before we see him again.
Poor dude only has like 2 years left or somn
that’s the whole point. it started with revenge, then he lets go of it by the end. It’s called granolah the survivor, had he kept getting involved and chasing revenge he would’ve died.
@@leultrainstinct406 that doesn’t in anyway justify throwing him away like a used up plot point. Stop being stupidly obtuse. Also, he literally gets involved anyway in the final fight. Your whole comment is mute. I’ll never understand you fanboys trying so hard to make stupid shit sound smart. You’re like Snyder fans.
@@leultrainstinct406 lol you can’t even defend Super on its own merit. Just keep comparing it to GT to make it look good. Classic super fans.
I wish the heaters were expanded on more they couldve potentially have been one of the best antagonists in dbs. The idea of a branch of the frieza force turning on frieza because of their own evil greed is such a cool concept. I also love the way that gas died. Frieza didnt just kill him, the wish had forced Gas' body to keep aging as an attempt to stay the strongest in the universe in the face of black Frieza in which his body could not handle causing him to turn to dust.
Moro and Granolah's arcs both suffer from GT syndrome. They had some super cool ideas, moro using magic and eating planets. but then he eats a robot and devolves into a stupid fight. Granolah feels like they toyotaro was told to stretch for a year and a half. But the fights took place in really unique areas and had some cool elements.
I know we supposed to hate GT as a general rule but GT handles Transformations way better.
GT syndrome makes no sense. Plenty of fictional shows and movies have good concepts and bad execution. This is not a GT unique flaw. lol you GT haters are so pathetic that you have to bring up GT in a conversation it’s not even relevant in.
Moro was pretty fun post-robo snack too. We got Merus, absorption of Merus, and the final showdown.
I don't understand how can Akira Toriyama let his best creation be butchered this way
Same bruh
Pretty sure he’s the one that essentially fired the gun that allowed DB to get butchered in the first place.
Fire that lunatic toyotaro
Probably doesn't care anymore
The reality is it really never was all that great
Toyotaru was seen as the hopeful heir to the Dragon Ball series, but now, there’s just a constant stream of odd writing decisions, inconsistencies, and complete disconnect from the story its a sequel too. I don’t really get why either, like maybe he’s trying to mimic the Toriyama way of writing, where he doesn’t plan the story ahead, because it feels like that, like there’s no planning.
Dragon Ball/Z Ended in 96. Everything else is just separate timelines.
The head cannon here is insane
What doesn't make sense with Gas' zombie power up is that it goes against how Ki works. Ki is made and cultivated further through the combination of genki (life force), yuuki (courage) and shouki (right-mindedness). How is his Ki supposed to shoot up so high when a third of its core requirements is being drained to near zero each second?
Because of the wish he was slowly dying to become the strongest became a price he wish to be the strongest mortal and his mistake is fighting Saiyans cause it took away his whole life just to be that strong
That's something you said just now though, the actual series never actually goes into any kind of detail about how Ki works other than it being energy that you focus or whatever, so the zombie thing doesn't exactly break any official rules as they are altlready so vague and non defined.
@@ginogatash4030 Incorrect. What I said was explicitly stated by Toriyama himself in the Super Exciting Guide. Furthermore, this is alluded to at several points in the manga such as Karin listing what attributes are required to endure the Choshinsui.
I'd advise you fact check what someone is saying next time you claim someone to be making things up because this has become a very ironic case of ignorance.
@@thefirstprime0124 That doesn't address what I said though. Ki is made up of and cultivated by the balance and heightening of all three, not that of two and the absence of one.
@@popculturepatrician7570 so you saying since he got stronger his Ki of that lvl should have preserved him
Goku not leading Gas too Broly during the planet hoping was criminally missed
This is the arc i simply stopped caring about dragon ball super completely.
Reading the granolah arc was like watching two overpowered CPU characters duke it out in MUGEN. I’m just watching the pretty lights and flashy colors.
Ok, I've only watched the first few minutes, but I wanna leave my opinion on the subject of Black Freeza being cheap hype. I don't believe that's the case, we're getting absurdly close to the original end of Dragon Ball, there needs to be a "Final" villain for this section of the story that leads to the last Tenkaichi Budokai, and I firmly believe Freeza is that villain. The arc we're getting now regarding Goten and Trunks serves 3 purposes in my opinion:
1) A break from the Gokuandvegetaism that Super has had through 80% of it's run.
2)A way to integrate the Superhero movie into the manga continuity.
3) A breather before the final confrontation of the story(Or this section of the story if/when they decide to go beyond the end of Z)
Only time will tell if it's cheap hype or build up for a final confrontation, but seeing where the story is at in terms of continuity, it needs to start wrapping shit up and Freeza is the perfect bow on top imo. I hope the eventual confrontation with Freeza has some stakes or some consequences for the story, if not, it will just be "Resurrection F 2: He's black now" lol.
I appreciate the comment bro, you make a good point and that would be a logical progression for the story, but the thing is that Dragon Ball in its current state post the anime's conclusion isn't very logical.
Would anyone have guessed that the sequel film to Broly would be a CGI Movie about the Red Ribbon Army returning (again) and Superheroes? No not really, being 'logical' fans many fans (myself included) felt that Cooler would be made canon next but that didn't happen.
Another logical things fans have been predicting for years has been the return of the DBS Anime, we've had 'leaks' for years now but now confirmation on the sequel series of one of the most popular Dragon Ball series of all time.
Dragon Ball in its current state is at the mercy of Toriyama's whims and wants (fair enough he did create it) as now he's so senior that there are no editors he has to listen to to shape his stories in a way that have a higher chance of pleasing most fans.
But ultimately you're right, maybe Black Freeza will return... maybe he won't lol
@@CAGExplains I don't believe it's a matter of Toriyama's whims, but rather the opposite, I feel like Toriyama really doesn't want to work on this series anymore, he's been done for decades. His only "passion projects" regarding DBS are Battle of Gods and Superhero(As he expressed his love for this movie a lot more than for the previous two). But besides those two projects? I'm certain it has been Toei and Toyotaro asking Toriyama for more, rather than them just waiting for him to pull the trigger whenever he wants, and we can see this in DBS, where the TOP constantly recycled previous character moments because I'm guessing Toriyama just didn't give detail for anything in that arc, and the Black arc is literally just a worse version of Toyotaro's AF manga, an evil Kai uses Goku in some way to create a half Saiyan/Half Kai enemy that is super strong? C'mon man lmao. Moro and Granolah also read like Toyotaro material, it might just be me, but they feel very different from the rest of Super.
In the end it's a matter of whether you are optimistic about Black Freeza or not. Honestly? With how Toyotaro brought back characters like Buu, Uub, Android 73 and Bardock, I very much doubt he will forget about Black Freeza. If there's one thing Toyotaro likes it's continuity(Cuz god knows it ain't good panneling and small text boxes, I love toyotaro but goddamn that man needs some panneling lessons from Toriyama)
@@RollinsFN dude the future trunks arcs is one of the best in DB period. Not the best so don't take that out of context. I couldn't stand Xicors story from AF as it was baby vegeta all over again. With goku black, it completes the cycle of hatred and consequence of using a time machine in the most ironic and brutal scenes: goku killing bulma. It was signifying all things that goku and trunks has done created goku black, who is also a time paradox after beerus kills current zamazu. That's insane dude. A rogue Kai whose ideologies is filled with delusion of justice. It's where he's not far off from the truth, but does justice in the most brutal way possible: multiversal genocide.
I also like how Zamasu has an obsession with Goku to the point of imitating his personality. It makes it rather creepy and It's one of the best roles of Goku's Seiyuu. Trunks and Mai's relationship was fire too. The ending was too rushed but yeah the Goku Black arc had a lot of potential but it got really sloppy in the end...
@@Thecor13 Future Trunks is legitimately the single worst arc in DB, in my opinion. The time travel plot is completely nonsensical and breaks the rules established in DBZ, characters are stupid to the point of being enraging, and the ending of the arc is the single worst thing I've ever seen/read, it's the most blatant Deus Ex Machina I've ever seen put to paper/screen. Not to mention, by the end of the arc, it would have literally been better if Trunks and the gang had done nothing, being dead takes you to otherworld, deleting the timeline erases otherworld. Trunk's actions led to the erasure of Future Gohan, Goku, etc. If he had done nothing he'd be in otherworld chilling with them all right now, which is a better fucking fate in my opinion. A disaster of an arc, I'd rather watch paint dry, because that at least won't make me angry.
I don't think the AF manga was any better though, it just has the advantage of not being official.
Ichigo didn't "just" get powerful and decide to win against grimjow. They were equal and he was distracted because he knew his appearance was causing his girlfriend emotional distress and when she validated him he got his head in the game.
He was fighting for selfish reasons until was reminded of orihime and his friends
Lol cope
@@SteelSquishyhow is it cope
@@billyboleson2830 partially true but it was always about orihime regardless. Ichigo himself didn't realize he was partially fighting selfishly until grimjow pointed it out to him. That he knew he really just wanted to get back at him for what he did. That he wasn't just here to be a knight in shining armor and he was just really pissed off and wanted to battle as much as grimjow.
@@AshBuddha no answer people just like to be contrarian for fun.
I remeber my friends loving this arc thinking it was amazing but basically every issue you've brought up I had tried to say to them and they just waved it off telling me i didnt understand writing.
Thank you for making this video someone finally had to say it
every issue in this video isn’t a real issue. It’s a combination of whining and crying, and not having comprehension skills to understand the story💀
@@leultrainstinct406if you think dragonball after the freeza arc has a tiny it of good writing, your delusional tbh
@@ΚρανίΩBecause everyone loves to look at the bad stuff about a story and never looks at the good parts.
@@ΚρανίΩthis is an insane take
I just realized this, I’m not sure, but did Granola try reviving his MOM?! Seems like a missed opportunity. It would have given Goku and Vegeta a reason to help Granola. Maybe Wiss tells Berrus that a set of dragon balls were used some where, Vegeta overhears, and prompts him to get involved, to make up for some of his peoples mistakes.
I believe there is a limit to reviving people. If they have been dead too long the soul has no body to go to. You could wish around it but you'll never get back what once was essentially.
@@omoddulus4933in the original dragon ball when piccolo fired a beam at goku and goku flys away without him realising when piccolo thinks he killed goku and he has been turned to ashes he shouts “there won’t be enough of you he body for even shenron to put together” so yeah there is a limit to how much they can revive a person
@@ellisp276Pretty sure that was just him talking smack
@@omoddulus4933That has never been mentioned as a thing. Actually Granola asks about reviving his whole race and is told that they would displace the newcomers by doing that, so if anything that confirms that you can bring back someone from that time
Same reason why doesn't Goku bring back Bardock. They could and as viewers it would be cool for them to do so but it would go against the narrative of letting go of the past that is important for both Vegeta and Granola this arc
Ngl that Bardock head canon of yours actually would make a lot of damn sense
You summed up Super perfect. Cheap hype.
"You're ignorant, and thats my fault? Nah." Is actually a kinda hard line ngl.
What i miss is toriyama's drawing and panelling style bro was so elite in his drawings even his panels told the story
Finding a RUclipsr who make some sense and have some standards and does not kiss the fandom ass is such a breath of fresh air
Damn, Ichigo catching stray bullets, haven’t seen a Bleach sneak diss since the early-mid 2010’s 💀
Just in case someone wants an explanation.. He didn’t get a power up, he was always stronger, just holding back because he thought he was scaring Orihime, by becoming more hollow like, and reminding her of her brother, when she finally started showing confidence in him mask on or off, he stops holding back. Not to mention he was messing around a little, since he was giving into his hollow instincts of enjoying the heat of battle.
Don't care, still don't like bleach
@@Bleeperblopper497Didn’t ask, still like bleach.
I know nothing about Dragon Balls, but your editing style and script made it really easy for me to follow along. I got really invested in a story I know nothing about haha. Amazing work!
Frieza actually did have a goal and he states it himself. "I never want to lose to those monkeys again."
Thats why he trained and honed his skills.
The best part of the arc is when Granolah says his famous quote "Everybody knows that Dragon Ball Fans can't fucking read"
I hope toei fixes a lot of this in the anime adaptation
If it gets one...
@@CAGExplains 😳
Why would they ? How would they ?
@@glatykoffi6672 Because Dragon Ball Super is a commercial success?
Anime dbs also fucks up characters lmao. They should have stopped after z all of this shit is ass
Reminder that those Frankenstein Monster Androids are stronger than Namek Saga Freiza, who could blow up planets.
14:23 yeah bro you forgot that whis blantly told goku to try and get his own verision of ultra instinct as mui is the state of the angels. And TUI is just the first step into gokus own version of ui.
My major issue of all of this is how much they are milking everything, especially Frieza. It makes the namek fight pointless if he always gets big power ups.
In general, I think the concepts introduced in this arc had great potential, and could hint towards more interesting things and story.
- Ultra Instinct being teased toward being used as a technique rather then another transformation, thus Goku having to "make it his own" and incorporate it into his own style of fighting.
- Goku showcasing that same concept with instant transmission and why He's a master at it vs copycats.
- Ultra Ego's self destruction tendency creating the hilarity of Vegeta gaslighting himself into becoming stronger.
- This arc in general fuels into furthering Vegeta's recent character arc of redemption for his villainous deeds
- monkey's paw wishes, or ones that lead to nasty backfires, is something that aside from GT's last arc dragon ball hasn't really done much with afaik.
Honestly everything leading up to the point where Gas and the Heeters stepping in felt pretty solid. But after that the writing goes to the gutter and eventually they decided to have freeza come in and end the story.
I don't like any of that. I don't like whis still being goku's mentor, and talking about how naive and experienced goku is. Come the hell on, the guy is like 50 years old and has spent the ENTIRETY of his life either training or fighting. There should be almost no one more experienced than he is. Or he should at least have had "developed his own style" way back when he was still a kid (which he did).
I won't even get into how they massacred vegeta. They ruined his entire series-long character arc in super.
@@GraveUypohe basically already had ultra-instinct after landing on Namek (he’ll arguably even before that). UI definitely is a cool idea and fits in the series but it’s based off of lessons that have already been learned, in general this whole arc tries to progress the story by basically restarting many aspects of the story.
@@GraveUypo They ruined Vegeta's character arc by furthering that exact same character arc
And before all the Granolah meat riders come here and defend every part of this arc
I'm used to my videos being controversial by now, bring them on! 😂😮💨
@@CAGExplains dragon ball fans defend this stuff more than their actual mothers would
It was really just arc of never let them know any of your moves, infact forget your own moves 💀
I was actually relieved when Frieza showed up out of nowhere and single handedly ended the entire arc in seconds. The arc itself had promise but grew really tedious. As much of a narrative cop out as ending it like that was, if nothing else, Frieza murcking the villains was weirdly satisfying since it put an end to what way a dragging, unfulfilling arc..... wait, does this mean Frieza is the hero of the arc? lol
Or “how every arc after the cell arc has had no narrative reason for being and only exists to sell merchandise”
And it will never end. The company which owns the IP, will never stop making it
Honestly all of Super has been lacking. Kind of prefer some fan work over this. Dragon has basically become modern day Star Wars
The Dragon Ball Multiverse Manga is really awesome
Granolah should have his own spinoff manga to develop him more.
Makes Goku look like more of an idiot for bringing Frieza back
on top of all it did not make sense that a 2 star dragon would have enough power to turn anyone into the mightiest regardless of the drawbacks. we saw throughout z that the dragons dont have power like that. and the family felt nothing towards their family members instantly moving on, to top it off granolah is forgotten once again in the future chapters. black frieza doesnt exist anymore and if the dbs broly movie happened doesnt that mean frieza visited the earth again to bring broly to fight goku n vegeta? like huh?
with the thrive thing i mean it doesnt throw all of gokus accomplishments out the window all of that is on his own.Just look at raditz the same wish was on his and he was still weak in todays standards and died.Thriving is just the grow and flourish,meaning he just wanted his sons to grow up and survive doesnt mean they cant die or feel pain or anythig.Its just so that they grow up.
Thrive prob meant that they managed to survive the saiyan extermination
I believe I saw someone point out that Bardock's "wish" was said sarcastically. Something like "Oh yeah! I got a GREAT wish for you! It's the best wish ever! I want my sons to thrive!"
Honestly this is what happens when you make your characters so op you end up having a hard time creating villains that can compete with them
In my opinion morro is definitely a great idea for a villain since being able to take amd absorb energy is definitely a great ideo for a power amd definitely somethong that can give goku and vageta a hard time as it did my only complaint is that they could have written morro better
The problem is that absorption has been done three times before in Z with the androids, Cell and Buu. Cell has been overdue for a revisit for a while but there's not much to do with stealing power they haven't already done.
@@hyperion3145moro had magic though so he was unique
@@Deathmare235 Buu was also magic.
@@yellowishnesses656 not really all he had was turning people into sweets
@@Deathmare235 And regeneration
And healing magic
And creating random objects
And absorption
My main question about the Granolah arc was how strong is he. Let’s say power levels were still a thing. Let’s also say Granolah power level is 10 million. Is Gas’ power level 10 million and 1 or higher than that? They never really explain it
I usually have to refrain from talking about Super because it will send me into a similar one hour rant.
Trunks having supreme is crazy that’s why he’s the drink 🍹
Despite being a fan of Dragon Ball I agree with what you said in the video... what happened to Dragon Ball?
america.
Bro, how did they fumble this arc so hard? GT did a better job with a similar idea in the Baby arc.
Black Freiza should be able to fight on Par with Whis and curbstomp Beerus. Otherwise it makes 0 sense whatsoever.
Wow I was being somewhat forgiving up until that wish made by Bardock. That is a greater character assassination in one panel of Goku than all of Super. How disgusting is it for Toyotaro to say that the guy who always is looking for a fight and will never ever stop to improve himself, is only the way he is because of a wish? Fuck that
Bro just hates all of dragonball super 😭
I mean I can’t blame him there’s not much to enjoy. (Unless you turn your brain off completely)
Agreed @@someguy2385
The only issue i have with the arc is the introduction of wishing to be strong something that Granolah, Gas and Piccolo did yet Frieza, the mf who literally boasted of being strong without training wasn't the one to introduce that concept, crazy.
Frieza is ironically the symbol of hard work here. While others wished to be strong but as a result had messed up consequences and stipulations Frieza spent 10 years training and became the actual strongest.
I'm gonna make a comment when I finish but Im subbed to you now since a streamer watched your Ultra Jobber Vegeta video
Great energy bro keep it up
Thanks for the sub bro! Curious to know your thoughts on the full video.
Also which streamer watched my video? I'm curious now 🤔
@@CAGExplains his name was emosh, small chill youtuber