Being largely unaware of TF2’s balance history, I do love your little misdirections. “This new weapon was balanced immaculately. …Oh, except for the fact that it could hit people through walls and get random crits at triple the normal rate.”
@@BullerPersonany melee that has random crits* random crits are based off of damage dealt in that second, capping at 800 damage, and not factoring in crit damage, counting it as if it werent a crit, same with minicrits ranged: 2-12% melee: 15-60%
Man I miss the sandman so much. Going 7+ years without so much as seeing that iconic BONK! icon above the enemy's heads has left me in a state of chronic shock and disbelief. Looking at the sandman in my inventory is depressing because it straight up used to be my favourite Scout weapon by far.
@@capperbunsimma quote a random fnaf meme michael afton: 2019 was 5 years ago springtrap: no... michael: 2014 was 10 years ago springtrap: NO! michael: and 2004 was TWENTY years ago springtrap: NOOOOOOO!
Not even 30 seconds into the video and I can already appreciate the attention to detail with the fact the Soldier in the beginning was using the Direct Hit for the one tap gag since Scout was at full health.
It is funny that the Sandman is the Scout's balance equivalent of Spy's Dead Ringer. Since it was added to the very end, every update was spent in some capacity trying to make it balanced to mostly lack of effect. Like father like son I guess.
@@Skullhawk13Honestly, after 8 years in the game, they really should’ve just kept it. Maybe get rid of the health penalty or give it the old cleaver combo, and it’d be iconic again.
@@Brother_Pinerthe combo could've been kept, but stunning in FPS games, like Lister Said, Just doesnt work. Being prevented from firing your gun in a fast paced shooter with the press of a single Button is too frustrating for a game like TF2. It turns 1v1s into an instant Win for scouts
@@Skullhawk13 Yeah, my only real ideas of fixing it pre-Jungle Inferno would be: + 15% *more* health + stunned players cannot move - -95% damage penalty for stunned players - -20% speed penalty - The ball can be caught. If it is, *run.* EDIT: For those wondering about my reasoning, I believe stuns can be a good addition to an FPS, but only in an at least partially casual setting. It obviously has no place in any competitive mode. There just buffing the damage of the Sandman and the Cleaver would've been good enough.
@@naoaquieopatrickpatrick8565 you'd think so but pulling those stuns off was hard at long range (best way to use it) and was only good for environmental kills or very situational in use beyond that. The only people annoyed by it were people who were stunned & cleaned up by the rest of the team - which was exactly how it was supposed to be used! You picked medics off this way without getting mowed by heavies. When they nefed it they made that a very difficult option to choose.
The amount of scout weapons valve nerfed into the dirt from being too strong is a true testament to how much of a Force a nature Scout is. BFB, Sandman + Flying Guillotine by association, crit a cola. So many sections I was looking forward to. Lister never misses.
Everything here except the CoC didn't deserve their nerfs. The sandman on release was bad, but AFTER that nerf it was no more than a fun goofy weapon that fit TF2's artstyle and gameplay direction. The sandman used to be my all-time favourite melee. Even if it wasn't the most-viable, it was always the most fun and nostalgic weapon to use (reminds me of the good old days where I'd try hitting INSANE moonshots on mario_kart or just messing around with it on other old maps in 2010 - 2014). And DON'T get me started on the bonk nerf of Jungle Inferno. It slows you down at maximum to the speed of a Heavy (which is a slowness achievable by running past your average sentry nest), not only allowing the enemies you just ran past to catch up with you and completely defeating the purpose of the weapon, but leaving you a MAJOR sitting duck. I am of the firm belief the bonk didn't need a nerf WHATSOEVER, but if they did nerf it they could've at-least made it more true to the weapon's purpose; like make you take mini crits for 5 seconds after it wears off, so you're incentivised to hide or stay out of combat momentarily once it wears off, not be slowed down to the speed of a slug so the enemy can catch up to you and destroy you. Essentially, Valve removes the slow effect because they see it as counter-intuitive to the whole design of the weapon. It's left like that for YEARS. Then some new devs come along "huh yeah this bonk weapon is totally busted the comp community says, let's add a slowdown effect to it!"
@n1ghtshad390 Says who? What golden rulebook dictates what does and doesn't belong in TF2? Last I checked, invulnerability soda cans, projectile reflecting-weaponry, teleportation, flying men with shields/ swords, random crits, and weapons that propel you at high speeds through the air via self-damage didn't exist in most traditional FPS games.
To be honest, the amount of broken combos and overpowered items throughout the life of TF2 is insane. I started playing in 2014 and so never experienced the orignal sandman or tommy gruvich, but it really shows how much the games design has changed over time. Its very telling that some of the most powerful items in the game where added early on and never changed (or at least never lost their overpowered abilities) over the years.
Yeah, tf2 wasn’t always balanced well and even today, there’s a good many weapons that could definitely be buffed, nerfed, or full out modified. I’m happy it isn’t perfect though. Imperfection is its own perfection.
48:39 The Short Stop actually gets its name from a baseball placement, which acts as a supportive role in the baseball team, which works with its idea of being a support based scattergun
yea, i meant the slowing down thing was why they called it the "shortstop" alongside the baseball reference, i kinda forgot that baseball is an american thing and not everyone would find that obvious lol
@@listertf2 i mean given all of the baseball references plastered all over the rest of his loadout i'm pretty sure that if you want to learn about scout but don't know enough about baseball to know about the shortstop position, i don't know what to tell ya
@@listertf2to be fair like 95% of Americans also know squat about baseball because it's a really boring sport. I went to one baseball game as a field trip in fifth grade and the only thing I remember is the game taking so long that we had to go back early because children were passing out from the heat
my favorite part about these videos is how they all start out reasonable enough and make me wish i could have been there for tf2's golden age, just to for that to be shutdown as i listen to the worlds most absurd series of buffs/nerfs ever conceived lol. makes me almost grateful to have gotten into the game post jungle inferno
I am just wanting for the video that combines all the classes videos and gives context to how all of the nerfs and buffs interacted with each other I love your videos
@@ArbitraryOutcomesniper eating/drinking his secondary and pulling a rifle that tf2 isn't ready to see out of the void to beat people to death with while minicritboosted*
Lister you genuinely make my day better when you post these videos. On days when I don’t know what to watch or I just chill, I rewatch your “Evolution of” videos. Scout was definitely the class I was most interested in seeing a video on, and I’m happy to be here to watch it!
Getting into tf2 and deciding on being a scout main, seeing the history of his playstyle changing with different nerfs and buffs is very interesting. A very informative video that was well put together.
Wow, I listened to your heavy and spy video today while working. I Was just wondering which class you'd cover next. As someone who started playing tf2 after jungle inferno, these documentaries are incredibly interesting. Keep up the great work man!
@@Skullhawk13 Sure, but I still think saying that is the hardest counter is a stretch. I main pyro, and i feel like scouts have more options against a sentry than pyro has. I would even call the pyro and heavy match up a stronger counter, since pyros cant even output enough damage at close range. Even the heavy-sniper and heavy-spy counters are much harsher. Also, you don't need to be good at pyro to completly stop any spy: just get used to flame around, and keep mid-short range when finding one. I can't even remember the last time I've gotten trickstabbed as pyro.
On scout is worse because scouts become useless. Or rather you feel useless playing as scout instead of something else. If there is a sentry and you have no way of getting past it then you would be better off switching class and take the sentry out instead of staying there peppering people with pistol or scattergun. Its a counter so severe that if there is a sentry covering a certain area a scout will not be able to enter that area. The class that can go pretty much everywhere very quickly and is balanced by having poor health and poor long range damage capacity cannot access a certain area/space? Then scout becomes incredibly useless. The best thing left is to spy check as scout and chase down eventual enemies behind your team lines.
@@AlextheLordofFirespy can outgun pyro and trickstab. Pyro can use the dragon fury or do a very quick and precise combo go finish off a heavy. Actually if a heavy is without a medic just set him on fire and eventually the after burn will finish him or force him to retreat. Scout can reliably take down a lone sentry on his own. If there is an engineer guarding it and possibly even other teammates around the sentry you will not take the sentry down as a scout.
Hey, thank you for this thorough opinion piece and recording of history! I can only imagine the hours put into just collecting all those clips, let alone writing and editing the final video. For the end result to actually feel like a worthwhile watch instead of a mere reading of old patch notes is an accomplishment in its own right. And for it to have felt engaging, well, you have fully deserved your Blockbuster achievement! Oh, except that it was nerfed. I've been playing TF2 since 2011, having first resisted because as a Quake: Team Fortress veteran I knew I would immediately get hooked, with a small gap that I ended three years ago. Of the approximately 8400 hours I've played, the vast majority I've been double jumping and meatshooting around as the bostonian menace. And I had still forgotten or not even heard of many of these twists and turns the scout has had throughout the history of the game. Also, not having seen it myself, I did not even know The Sandman used to be /that/ overpowered at its release state. I might have lamented its downfall even more than I eventually did. While it is regrettable that the developement of the game has slowed down to the occasional bug fixes, I am glad that overall, the game has been left in a state that feels relatively balanced. Sure, from a scout main's perspective, maybe The Sandman could have some use, maybe the mini-sentry's hull should have a *#¤*!ng magnet for pistol bullets, and maybe the BFB should require 30 to 40 points of damage to completely lose its speed buff, but these are ultimately minor aspects to a class that has plenty of viable, and more importantly, fun playstyles available to anyone willing to try them out. Anyway, thank you again! This was a fun, relaxing way to start my day off. And inspired by your video, I might just continue it by popping onto a server for some brief crazy legging.
holy shit this is mindblowing but at 1:10:41 in the video one of the players hovered over is called MLC St3alth, who is a legendary SMITE pro player from way back in the day. it could be an impostor but i might be the only person who spotted that name and understood who it was. look his name up he was a beast!
Scout really hasn't changed much since 2007 fundamentally. His weapons were the things that changed throughout the years. And those weapons really changed how Scout can be utilized, making him even more powerful than he already is. This was a really great video of such a varied history of weapons for one class.
right off the bat (scout joke intended); massive respect for using vandoorea's Faster Than a Speeding Bullet remix. that guy is super underrated imo, and i've been listening to that track while playing scout lately. it's cool seeing it here! post-watch edit: man... it's really cool seeing what was of scout, and his massive fall from grace that was honestly kinda deserved. he used to be the most OP class in the game, and honestly his personality fit that. he was insanely good and he knew it, and was completely cocky about it xP ...still think BFB should be a bit more forgiving on the whole taking damage thing. sandman should also have the health penalty removed, i'd swap it for a swing speed penalty
i dont know what it is about these videos but theyre so rewatchable. the editing style and commentary are superb!! always interesting to rewatch, coming from someone who rewatches each one every few weeks or so lol very excited for the continuation of this series, as a pyro main im interested to see how different classic pyro was as opposed to now (yes i already know of the combo pyro video, but still)
Your production improved a lot since your last Evolution video. Keep up the grind! Hope one day i get to see you do an evolution on MvM, how it got teased before the update even dropped, how dumb refunds were at the time, and how Jungle Inferno broke the game mode for a featured class.
That's pretty much the infinite refund video, and everything before it is just going to be about the problems MVM had enough to warrant those adjustments. People knew it was systematically rough if you weren't doing things the, "right," way, or you'd be stuck on a rudder-less ship. But the video kinda fails to account that simply having someone new was a effective refund, and the game cannot just force you to be someone's role out of their control. The video already goes over all of that, so a new video is only going to be what goes on with MVM today. Updates are only going to be for mitigating the abuses griefers done. I don't think further giving recognition to the losers who still feels strongly about MVM after all these years is going to do much good either.
@@risa1467 You're right i suppose. I guess in that sense we don't need pyro and demo evolutions, just go watch demoknight and combo pyro, that should be good enough to tell their history :^)
@@krimson8089 One of these things is not like the other, and that was not my point. Both Demoknight & Combo Pyro have useful insight to how both classes were warped for the longest time, and what Valve wanted to do with them. That was the longest period of time for me playing TF2 pre-uber update. MVM's history is just the ARG/TF2 Lore, repo files of what MVM could have been, and what it led to for Valve to do absolutely nothing with. Which it is all already covered in the refund video, because that's the mechanic that was tuned to prevent game abandonment because of over-centralized gamemode balancing. The losers complaining about anything else just wants to strong-arm the gamemode into what they wanted it to be.
Thank you so much for continuing this series this is the best RUclips videos I have ever seen I am always excited for any new video from you You are literally my favourite RUclipsr keep it up and keep being awesome!!
I’m not going to lie, this video got me to subscribe. I love this game and I’ve had it since October 31st 2015 so as of right now almost ten years . And it brings me back to the days of learning each class and their strengths and weaknesses. Seeing people so passionate and in love with the game I grew up with, makes me happy. This game is uniquely fun, wacky, complex and competitive. The gameplay alone brings my back time and time again. I am acutely aware of the current state of the game, but as long as people like you, still care still love and still play this amazing game. People like you are what keep our community alive and every video every weapon review every class tutorial is what keeps the game alive. I thank you for your efforts and loook forward to future video projects.
your vídeos have helped me sleep better for what feels like months now, not to say they are bad or uninteresting, but your voice has a somewhat soothing tone that my mind finds calming I still do actually watch and listen to the videos btw
Fascinating to see the heights scout reached in his heyday. It's funny to think that right now is probably the most balanced his unlocks have been considering how powerful many still are.
"The baby face's blaster is still good in the right hands" BASED AND TRUE. If you're clever with your movement, you can literally avoid the movement speed downside
It's still a bad weapon it may be fun but there are better options. You really need to rely on the wrap and cleaver. You might as well use the shortstop at that point. The thing holding the weapon back are chokes, Pyro, chip damage, and sentries. On some maps this isn't an issue like king of the hill you could argue that it's actually a pretty good weapon in that scenario.
Yeah it's not that the weapon is bad, but I prefer the less volatile original gimmick version that dealt no damage to the massive highs/lows of the new one. Being ultra fast is still as good as ever
@@corbinallen4562 Everything that you listed are thing that good scouts should be avoiding anyways, and the pyro Vs. scout match-up ins't something the pyro really wants to take. A scout loses 10% movement speed with the bfb, which is only significant on larger roll-outs. Keeping *basically* the same movement speed as scout and having a MUCH faster, much jumpier, much more agile scout to go up against in DM is a NIGHTMARE. The increased speed is good for literally everything, and a scout only has to deal a measly 25 damage to get back to regular 400HU/S, a good scout can earn the speed boost just as fast as they *could* lose it, which comes back to how source handles the movement vector, as the speed for the scout wont *actually* decrease while he's in the air. This includes both regular and double jumping! A single meatshot in DM will bring you right back to that sweet sweet full meter. Hell, I even know some 6s flank scouts who run it; there's so much potential hidden within the gun. I highly recommend to just experiment with it, but if you understand source's movement, you'll have a lot easier time to use the BFB to its fullest potential, trust me.
i used to play scout with the guillotine and sandman and got way to good with it that my friends came up with the name the stunning cleave driveby (or something like that as it has been a few years), man we used to joke so much about it cuz how OP it was. if only the cleave could atleast do mini crits against slowed enemies sandman might still have been used a bit.
it's probably my least favorite weapon to use in the game i get that it's balanced or whatever, but losing your boost feels awful i'd much prefer if it was reverted to some iteration of it's no-jump version
@@fortnitesexman I disagree with lister's view that the current BFB is necessary. At-LEAST make it take 100 damage to lose your boost or something similar. 25 is way too punishing. Even as a Scout player who played this game for many, many years, the sudden jolt from going really high speed to moving like a slug from a few stray bullets is not only incredibly unsatisfying, but it takes your brain a good second or two to acclimate to that sudden change, which can mess up your aim and your movement and get you killed very often. PS I'm still salty at Valve to this day for Jungle Inferno/ BFB nerfs so maybe I'm biased.
An idea just popped in my head for a few scout weapons. Sandman: the damage and stun should scale depending on the balls range, meaning that if you're in a closer range, it's damage would be minimal but in a longer range it will insta kill if you get a head shot. The downside would be that it can't recharge, forcing you to literally walk your way back to the ball...and another scout player can hit your ball back towards you like it's tenis or something. Shortstop: The weapon would be a high caliber pistol that allows the scout to fight in longer ranges. Buffing the shove does have potential for melee combos or even using it with the flying guillotine but I would prefer it being more like a mid-long range weapon in order to keep the tf2 sandbox unique. There's a few more (bad) ideas I do have for scout but I'm like.....dying now
Silly little fact that probably everyone has noticed so far but i wanna point it out The "Special Delivery" set, more specially the hat plus the "Mad Milk" is a possible reference to The MilkMan from Psychonauts. It's the same hat and, well, milk, mad milk. "I am the Milkman, my milk is delicious" -Scout TF2
The intro gives me serious deja vu to Tracer at the start of OW1. Everyone thought the character was terrible until one insane player proved that mobility is king. Gamers never seem to factor "learning curve" into "viability". Everyone is so quick to call something useless until they get proven wrong or the devs buff it into a monster.
It was fun going down memory lane in this video. The launch version of Baby Face Blaster was insanely broken, but it was so much fun. Scout was always my 2nd most used class so I was always happy when Valve gave him new items
The statement "Stuns don't belong to movement shooters like TF2" is just an instilled though that quickly spread over the playerbase, thanks to Uncle Dane and competitive community. Having a possibility that your movement can be taken away by a skilled shot even more amplifies the importance of movement and motivates you to improve it. Moreover Scout had only one shot in store that could be easily dodged and made Scout's movement more predictable since he would most likely attempt to pick it after failed attempt. Stuns are what made TF2 unique and fun, they were a part of TF2's old spirit and had been here since the game release: Soldier stuns, Demo stuns, Sentry stuns and bullets push you back. Without them you would get another CS. And I would argue that Sniper has become a major problem only because everything that could counter him got nerfed: I remember how Sandman Scouts were giving them hell. It's funny how this weapon got killed only because some TF2-youtuber-engi-main got his nose inside Valve HQ and was teaching developers how to develop *their* game. He was lucky Robin Walker wasn't around back then, otherwise he would be kicked out of the building. I would be mad too if some guy taught me how develop *my* game. And what's even funnier, after all these changes fostered by Uncle Dane half of playerbase left the game in disappointment. His statement "After 5 years players will say that the comp is the reason I started my career in TF2" seems to be aged poorly at very least. Valve shouldn't have even attempted to please the minority that wanted to forge TF2 into something it wasn't. They got two big comp updates that almost killed TF2 only for them to crawl under their rocks which their private servers are. Truly the smallest but the loudest part of community, like a toddler. Sorry but no one wants the game to become so predictable and repetitive thanks to unchanging meta, like CS or Overwatch. I want my items and options to have fun back.
Crit-a-cola was perfectly fine before 2017. It only got nerfed cuz god forbid anything besides stock scout being usable, Comp players ruined everything...
That's a common theme. Sandman was fine. Guillotine was fine. Bonk was underpowered if not fine. Atomizer was fine. Etc. They all got nerfed because they "weren't fine" in competitive which should have zero bearing on Casual. But of-course the comp players had to whine to Valve to change the entire balance of the game.
On the bright side for the Fan O' War, it's one of Scout's more powerful unlocks for MvM. Marking high HP bots for death is an invaluable tool for killing them fast, especially if you milked them (not sorry) as well for heals. Love how that mode can breathe new life into some weapons.
Two things I've realized while watching: 1) I was truly playing in the glory days of Scout and to now find that I am much less effective with the class is probably a skill issue... Though I didn't use much outside of the BFB in terms of broken unlocks 2) I'm so sad I missed the bird scout migration. I don't think I've laughed this maniacally in years. Your editing was immaculate
Thought this was an old video I missed then I realized it was new. Awesome! Hope to get one for the whole squad(including the medic, because I haven't seen a single video online discussing the medic)
![The Evolution of Spy [TF2]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/rHXzX-cQWIs/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Evolution of Heavy [TF2]](/img/1.gif)
meatshot 8)
annoying as hell; cool as hell 🍷
Meatshot > headshot
Holy carp it’s the scout himself
uh oh
I can't believe the most influential scout main used chat binds. This dude's a legend.
22:03 The most brave Scout I have ever seen.
He goes in a melee fight against 5 heavies on the cart.
i cut off the clip right before he died :(
He watched to much meet the medic/scout
There’s a difference between brave and dumb
@@powdereyes2210
A (punch ivor)
@powdereyes2210 is a dumb action to do, but it takes some balls to even attempt it in the first place.
Being largely unaware of TF2’s balance history, I do love your little misdirections. “This new weapon was balanced immaculately. …Oh, except for the fact that it could hit people through walls and get random crits at triple the normal rate.”
Except the fact that source spaghetti messes everything up
Ubersaw moment
Yeah, sounds like one of the more balanced weapons
@@BullerPersonand then he said... "im going to saw through MEDIC"... it was terrifying...
@@BullerPersonany melee that has random crits*
random crits are based off of damage dealt in that second, capping at 800 damage, and not factoring in crit damage, counting it as if it werent a crit, same with minicrits
ranged: 2-12%
melee: 15-60%
"2014-Today" being the last chapter and only about a quarter of the video is so heartbreaking.
Ten years
@@creativename773 now that u mentioned it... My god, it's already been 10 years... 😢
@capperbuns I remember celebrating TF2's 10-year anniversary around Jungle Inferno. That was 7 years ago.
Man I miss the sandman so much. Going 7+ years without so much as seeing that iconic BONK! icon above the enemy's heads has left me in a state of chronic shock and disbelief. Looking at the sandman in my inventory is depressing because it straight up used to be my favourite Scout weapon by far.
@@capperbunsimma quote a random fnaf meme
michael afton: 2019 was 5 years ago
springtrap: no...
michael: 2014 was 10 years ago
springtrap: NO!
michael: and 2004 was TWENTY years ago
springtrap: NOOOOOOO!
Not even 30 seconds into the video and I can already appreciate the attention to detail with the fact the Soldier in the beginning was using the Direct Hit for the one tap gag since Scout was at full health.
It is funny that the Sandman is the Scout's balance equivalent of Spy's Dead Ringer. Since it was added to the very end, every update was spent in some capacity trying to make it balanced to mostly lack of effect. Like father like son I guess.
Sandman wasn’t really unbalanced before the final nerf. People just hate stuns.
@@Skullhawk13Honestly, after 8 years in the game, they really should’ve just kept it. Maybe get rid of the health penalty or give it the old cleaver combo, and it’d be iconic again.
@@Brother_Pinerthe combo could've been kept, but stunning in FPS games, like Lister Said, Just doesnt work.
Being prevented from firing your gun in a fast paced shooter with the press of a single Button is too frustrating for a game like TF2. It turns 1v1s into an instant Win for scouts
@@Skullhawk13 Yeah, my only real ideas of fixing it pre-Jungle Inferno would be:
+ 15% *more* health
+ stunned players cannot move
- -95% damage penalty for stunned players
- -20% speed penalty
- The ball can be caught. If it is, *run.*
EDIT: For those wondering about my reasoning, I believe stuns can be a good addition to an FPS, but only in an at least partially casual setting. It obviously has no place in any competitive mode. There just buffing the damage of the Sandman and the Cleaver would've been good enough.
@@naoaquieopatrickpatrick8565 you'd think so but pulling those stuns off was hard at long range (best way to use it) and was only good for environmental kills or very situational in use beyond that. The only people annoyed by it were people who were stunned & cleaned up by the rest of the team - which was exactly how it was supposed to be used! You picked medics off this way without getting mowed by heavies. When they nefed it they made that a very difficult option to choose.
The amount of scout weapons valve nerfed into the dirt from being too strong is a true testament to how much of a Force a nature Scout is.
BFB, Sandman + Flying Guillotine by association, crit a cola. So many sections I was looking forward to. Lister never misses.
I mean he is a force of nature, he told us so in his meet the team video
'Lister never misses, the absolute legend"
Everything here except the CoC didn't deserve their nerfs. The sandman on release was bad, but AFTER that nerf it was no more than a fun goofy weapon that fit TF2's artstyle and gameplay direction. The sandman used to be my all-time favourite melee. Even if it wasn't the most-viable, it was always the most fun and nostalgic weapon to use (reminds me of the good old days where I'd try hitting INSANE moonshots on mario_kart or just messing around with it on other old maps in 2010 - 2014).
And DON'T get me started on the bonk nerf of Jungle Inferno. It slows you down at maximum to the speed of a Heavy (which is a slowness achievable by running past your average sentry nest), not only allowing the enemies you just ran past to catch up with you and completely defeating the purpose of the weapon, but leaving you a MAJOR sitting duck. I am of the firm belief the bonk didn't need a nerf WHATSOEVER, but if they did nerf it they could've at-least made it more true to the weapon's purpose; like make you take mini crits for 5 seconds after it wears off, so you're incentivised to hide or stay out of combat momentarily once it wears off, not be slowed down to the speed of a slug so the enemy can catch up to you and destroy you.
Essentially, Valve removes the slow effect because they see it as counter-intuitive to the whole design of the weapon. It's left like that for YEARS. Then some new devs come along "huh yeah this bonk weapon is totally busted the comp community says, let's add a slowdown effect to it!"
@n1ghtshad390 Says who? What golden rulebook dictates what does and doesn't belong in TF2? Last I checked, invulnerability soda cans, projectile reflecting-weaponry, teleportation, flying men with shields/ swords, random crits, and weapons that propel you at high speeds through the air via self-damage didn't exist in most traditional FPS games.
@@JeffarryLounder I'm pretty sure the point about stun mechanics not belonging in tf2 comes from the fact that it's really shitty to play against
0:49 "when to retreat for health"
average scout at 124 hp:
confirmed i spam the shit out of e if my health is below 125 /j
MEDIC! MEDIC!! DOC, CMON MAN! MEDIC!
@@bmac4NEED A DISPENSER HERE!
To be honest, the amount of broken combos and overpowered items throughout the life of TF2 is insane. I started playing in 2014 and so never experienced the orignal sandman or tommy gruvich, but it really shows how much the games design has changed over time. Its very telling that some of the most powerful items in the game where added early on and never changed (or at least never lost their overpowered abilities) over the years.
Yeah, tf2 wasn’t always balanced well and even today, there’s a good many weapons that could definitely be buffed, nerfed, or full out modified. I’m happy it isn’t perfect though. Imperfection is its own perfection.
holy shit over 2 hours of lister content on a saturday night lfg
SHAY?? LIKE THE *UNDERTALE* GUY??
@@ArrowPandaFode i think it is the undtlae gyu
Play overtime
Did not expect the magical Shayy to appear here
Shay tunderail
Fun fact. The Mad Milk was first named the “Mann Milk.” Think about it as you will.
Dear God
@@MaxTheGreatMTG There's more
@@MaxTheGreatMTGthere's more
There’s more
No
BABE WAKE UPSCOUT TF2 EVOLUTION VIDEO DROPPED
What’s upscout?
"nothin much, what about you" - scout
@@brayden6449
@@brayden6449he forgot the spaces for Up scout
@@Lanetgm bruh
@@brayden6449 nothin', what's up with you?
48:39 The Short Stop actually gets its name from a baseball placement, which acts as a supportive role in the baseball team, which works with its idea of being a support based scattergun
yea, i meant the slowing down thing was why they called it the "shortstop" alongside the baseball reference, i kinda forgot that baseball is an american thing and not everyone would find that obvious lol
I think the joke is that it's a baseball reference, and it's mechanics slowed people down. So it's both.
@@listertf2 i mean given all of the baseball references plastered all over the rest of his loadout i'm pretty sure that if you want to learn about scout but don't know enough about baseball to know about the shortstop position, i don't know what to tell ya
@@listertf2to be fair like 95% of Americans also know squat about baseball because it's a really boring sport. I went to one baseball game as a field trip in fifth grade and the only thing I remember is the game taking so long that we had to go back early because children were passing out from the heat
@@listertf2baseball is also popular in Japan and Korea you absolute goober
my favorite part about these videos is how they all start out reasonable enough and make me wish i could have been there for tf2's golden age, just to for that to be shutdown as i listen to the worlds most absurd series of buffs/nerfs ever conceived lol. makes me almost grateful to have gotten into the game post jungle inferno
holy shit its here
IT'S HERE!
First
You stole my fucking name
My thoughts exactly
@@cssib bite me
I am just wanting for the video that combines all the classes videos and gives context to how all of the nerfs and buffs interacted with each other
I love your videos
22:02 Great use of footage here.
I love drinking the Boston basher
Fixed a bug where Sniper eating his gun would crash the server.
Aye dose ye need medic’s assistance because I ain’t think that’s normal lad???
@@ArbitraryOutcomesniper eating/drinking his secondary and pulling a rifle that tf2 isn't ready to see out of the void to beat people to death with while minicritboosted*
Thanks for that tough guy ❤
Lister you genuinely make my day better when you post these videos. On days when I don’t know what to watch or I just chill, I rewatch your “Evolution of” videos.
Scout was definitely the class I was most interested in seeing a video on, and I’m happy to be here to watch it!
tf is that pfp
@@orlandodanielgonzalezalcar3360Braiden from murder drones
@@orlandodanielgonzalezalcar3360you shouldn’t be cursing young man! 🤯
@@orlandodanielgonzalezalcar3360 yeah thats what i thought orlando daniel gonzalez alcaraz
Getting into tf2 and deciding on being a scout main, seeing the history of his playstyle changing with different nerfs and buffs is very interesting. A very informative video that was well put together.
30:08
Guy had it coming, using the chat while alive in arena mode.
Scout player
Thank you for debunking the "Scout outruns his hitbox myth", I've been waiting for almost 6 years now for someone major to bring light to that
didn't fishstickonastick call this out?
@@fortnitesexmanyeah
your videos continue to be some of the best the entire community has ever come up with, including the videos outsite the "evolution of" series.
I think Fishtank has the best tf2 videos out rn but lister is also really good
As a scout main, I really appreciate you making this video. Thank you.
me 2!
Wait, scout mains exist?
@@mattdemille1262 ur funny
scout 2011-2013 explained: "they buffed it again"
I just love seeing all the old footage found for these videos. Makes me super nostalgic back when i was terrible at tf2 lmao
" The fastest class in the game"
Demoknights with the eyelander:Hold my scrumpy
Baby Face's Blaster:
@@TheOneGodofMadness 25 DMG:🗿
@@besmaabessi7503 Bleed: 🫡
@@TheOneGodofMadnesssolarlight on upward: shut up before i make you eat the revolfer
Finally,
Evolution of tiny boston child.
providing all song names in a pastebin is so goated thank you
Wow, I listened to your heavy and spy video today while working. I Was just wondering which class you'd cover next.
As someone who started playing tf2 after jungle inferno, these documentaries are incredibly interesting.
Keep up the great work man!
If we’re gonna cry about the sandman, remove the Natasha and scorch shot.
Sandman requires skill, Natasha and scorch shot are brain dead.
Hell yeah
Holiday Punch is okay though, it can stay
@@RandomFurry07definitely. If you allow the slowest class in the game to sneak up behind and melee you, there ain’t no one to blame but yourself
scorch shot can be nerf not remove but the natasha not sure why you want that remove from the game since valve never remove weapons in the game
6:30 Sentries counter scouts harder than any other counter in the game!
Enter the pyro-spy match up:
A great spy can beat a good pyro. An excellent scout can beat a poorly placed sentry. Not the same
@@Skullhawk13 Sure, but I still think saying that is the hardest counter is a stretch. I main pyro, and i feel like scouts have more options against a sentry than pyro has. I would even call the pyro and heavy match up a stronger counter, since pyros cant even output enough damage at close range. Even the heavy-sniper and heavy-spy counters are much harsher.
Also, you don't need to be good at pyro to completly stop any spy: just get used to flame around, and keep mid-short range when finding one. I can't even remember the last time I've gotten trickstabbed as pyro.
@@AlextheLordofFirepyros can outmatch heavies, with dragon's fury or flamethrower + panic attack
On scout is worse because scouts become useless. Or rather you feel useless playing as scout instead of something else.
If there is a sentry and you have no way of getting past it then you would be better off switching class and take the sentry out instead of staying there peppering people with pistol or scattergun.
Its a counter so severe that if there is a sentry covering a certain area a scout will not be able to enter that area. The class that can go pretty much everywhere very quickly and is balanced by having poor health and poor long range damage capacity cannot access a certain area/space?
Then scout becomes incredibly useless. The best thing left is to spy check as scout and chase down eventual enemies behind your team lines.
@@AlextheLordofFirespy can outgun pyro and trickstab.
Pyro can use the dragon fury or do a very quick and precise combo go finish off a heavy. Actually if a heavy is without a medic just set him on fire and eventually the after burn will finish him or force him to retreat.
Scout can reliably take down a lone sentry on his own. If there is an engineer guarding it and possibly even other teammates around the sentry you will not take the sentry down as a scout.
Hey, thank you for this thorough opinion piece and recording of history! I can only imagine the hours put into just collecting all those clips, let alone writing and editing the final video. For the end result to actually feel like a worthwhile watch instead of a mere reading of old patch notes is an accomplishment in its own right. And for it to have felt engaging, well, you have fully deserved your Blockbuster achievement! Oh, except that it was nerfed.
I've been playing TF2 since 2011, having first resisted because as a Quake: Team Fortress veteran I knew I would immediately get hooked, with a small gap that I ended three years ago. Of the approximately 8400 hours I've played, the vast majority I've been double jumping and meatshooting around as the bostonian menace. And I had still forgotten or not even heard of many of these twists and turns the scout has had throughout the history of the game. Also, not having seen it myself, I did not even know The Sandman used to be /that/ overpowered at its release state. I might have lamented its downfall even more than I eventually did.
While it is regrettable that the developement of the game has slowed down to the occasional bug fixes, I am glad that overall, the game has been left in a state that feels relatively balanced. Sure, from a scout main's perspective, maybe The Sandman could have some use, maybe the mini-sentry's hull should have a *#¤*!ng magnet for pistol bullets, and maybe the BFB should require 30 to 40 points of damage to completely lose its speed buff, but these are ultimately minor aspects to a class that has plenty of viable, and more importantly, fun playstyles available to anyone willing to try them out.
Anyway, thank you again! This was a fun, relaxing way to start my day off. And inspired by your video, I might just continue it by popping onto a server for some brief crazy legging.
holy shit this is mindblowing but at 1:10:41 in the video one of the players hovered over is called MLC St3alth, who is a legendary SMITE pro player from way back in the day. it could be an impostor but i might be the only person who spotted that name and understood who it was. look his name up he was a beast!
The longest "Evolution of (insert tf2 class) video lister has done so far. amazing work mate, keep it up
Scout really hasn't changed much since 2007 fundamentally. His weapons were the things that changed throughout the years. And those weapons really changed how Scout can be utilized, making him even more powerful than he already is. This was a really great video of such a varied history of weapons for one class.
Lol kind of funny that the 'meta' stock loadout is just 'stock but he can hurt himself'
Chatgpt ass comment
Best video so far, love all the animations. Keep up the great work lister!
The scout update was my birth month
We'll always be happy when these videos drop, Lister my man. If I had the cash to spare I'd fund the whole damn series!
right off the bat (scout joke intended); massive respect for using vandoorea's Faster Than a Speeding Bullet remix. that guy is super underrated imo, and i've been listening to that track while playing scout lately. it's cool seeing it here!
post-watch edit: man... it's really cool seeing what was of scout, and his massive fall from grace that was honestly kinda deserved. he used to be the most OP class in the game, and honestly his personality fit that. he was insanely good and he knew it, and was completely cocky about it xP
...still think BFB should be a bit more forgiving on the whole taking damage thing. sandman should also have the health penalty removed, i'd swap it for a swing speed penalty
i dont know what it is about these videos but theyre so rewatchable. the editing style and commentary are superb!! always interesting to rewatch, coming from someone who rewatches each one every few weeks or so lol
very excited for the continuation of this series, as a pyro main im interested to see how different classic pyro was as opposed to now (yes i already know of the combo pyro video, but still)
Your production improved a lot since your last Evolution video. Keep up the grind!
Hope one day i get to see you do an evolution on MvM, how it got teased before the update even dropped, how dumb refunds were at the time, and how Jungle Inferno broke the game mode for a featured class.
That's pretty much the infinite refund video, and everything before it is just going to be about the problems MVM had enough to warrant those adjustments.
People knew it was systematically rough if you weren't doing things the, "right," way, or you'd be stuck on a rudder-less ship. But the video kinda fails to account that simply having someone new was a effective refund, and the game cannot just force you to be someone's role out of their control.
The video already goes over all of that, so a new video is only going to be what goes on with MVM today. Updates are only going to be for mitigating the abuses griefers done. I don't think further giving recognition to the losers who still feels strongly about MVM after all these years is going to do much good either.
@@risa1467 You're right i suppose. I guess in that sense we don't need pyro and demo evolutions, just go watch demoknight and combo pyro, that should be good enough to tell their history :^)
@@krimson8089 One of these things is not like the other, and that was not my point. Both Demoknight & Combo Pyro have useful insight to how both classes were warped for the longest time, and what Valve wanted to do with them. That was the longest period of time for me playing TF2 pre-uber update.
MVM's history is just the ARG/TF2 Lore, repo files of what MVM could have been, and what it led to for Valve to do absolutely nothing with. Which it is all already covered in the refund video, because that's the mechanic that was tuned to prevent game abandonment because of over-centralized gamemode balancing. The losers complaining about anything else just wants to strong-arm the gamemode into what they wanted it to be.
Wow. I looked for this video yesterday and I was super disappointed you didn't do it yet. This is the best birthday present ever
yoo happy birthday
@@TakReal ay, thanks
Holy shit he remembers his youtube password
the quality of your content has improved bro its insane
57:49 Most normalest scout encounter tf2
This channels is underrated as hell I love these evolution videos it helps me understand the history of tf2 and what it was like back then 😊.
Yoo, I'm dropping everything to watch this, great job love the content
Thank you so much for continuing this series this is the best RUclips videos I have ever seen I am always excited for any new video from you
You are literally my favourite RUclipsr keep it up and keep being awesome!!
all these videos made me realize that valve really had no idea what the hell they were doing with this game on every level
Clocking a dude from across the map with a Sandman ball is still probably the most satisfying game mechanic ever
I have been hoping for this video for so long!
In 2024 Blu Scout changed out of his shit stained brown pants into a fresh pair of blue pants. He then shat his pants again 18 hours later.
Finally, the best character in video game history gets 2 and a half hours to himself. As if he didn't have enough attention already...
These videos are really well made and have so much information in them, i hope you keep doing them
I love that you used so much Sonic music for the fastest class in the game, amazing video as always
Your actually one of my favorite RUclipsrs, keep up the good work
"2014-today" Was painful to watch bro 😭
amazing video, the amount of effort put into this requires wayy more subs
Love your videos ❤ thanks for releasing very informative content
I’m not going to lie, this video got me to subscribe. I love this game and I’ve had it since October 31st 2015 so as of right now almost ten years . And it brings me back to the days of learning each class and their strengths and weaknesses. Seeing people so passionate and in love with the game I grew up with, makes me happy. This game is uniquely fun, wacky, complex and competitive. The gameplay alone brings my back time and time again. I am acutely aware of the current state of the game, but as long as people like you, still care still love and still play this amazing game. People like you are what keep our community alive and every video every weapon review every class tutorial is what keeps the game alive. I thank you for your efforts and loook forward to future video projects.
"Hard" - Lister, 2024
your vídeos have helped me sleep better for what feels like months now, not to say they are bad or uninteresting, but your voice has a somewhat soothing tone that my mind finds calming
I still do actually watch and listen to the videos btw
You’re a legend bro I love these vids
Fascinating to see the heights scout reached in his heyday. It's funny to think that right now is probably the most balanced his unlocks have been considering how powerful many still are.
"The baby face's blaster is still good in the right hands" BASED AND TRUE. If you're clever with your movement, you can literally avoid the movement speed downside
It's still a bad weapon it may be fun but there are better options. You really need to rely on the wrap and cleaver. You might as well use the shortstop at that point. The thing holding the weapon back are chokes, Pyro, chip damage, and sentries. On some maps this isn't an issue like king of the hill you could argue that it's actually a pretty good weapon in that scenario.
Yeah it's not that the weapon is bad, but I prefer the less volatile original gimmick version that dealt no damage to the massive highs/lows of the new one. Being ultra fast is still as good as ever
@@WishMakers Yea I feel like it's very map specific.
@@corbinallen4562 Everything that you listed are thing that good scouts should be avoiding anyways, and the pyro Vs. scout match-up ins't something the pyro really wants to take. A scout loses 10% movement speed with the bfb, which is only significant on larger roll-outs. Keeping *basically* the same movement speed as scout and having a MUCH faster, much jumpier, much more agile scout to go up against in DM is a NIGHTMARE. The increased speed is good for literally everything, and a scout only has to deal a measly 25 damage to get back to regular 400HU/S, a good scout can earn the speed boost just as fast as they *could* lose it, which comes back to how source handles the movement vector, as the speed for the scout wont *actually* decrease while he's in the air. This includes both regular and double jumping! A single meatshot in DM will bring you right back to that sweet sweet full meter. Hell, I even know some 6s flank scouts who run it; there's so much potential hidden within the gun. I highly recommend to just experiment with it, but if you understand source's movement, you'll have a lot easier time to use the BFB to its fullest potential, trust me.
was gonna go to bed but lister be treating us to a 2 hr+ video
I wonder what's next. Medic? Soldier?
i used to play scout with the guillotine and sandman and got way to good with it that my friends came up with the name the stunning cleave driveby (or something like that as it has been a few years), man we used to joke so much about it cuz how OP it was. if only the cleave could atleast do mini crits against slowed enemies sandman might still have been used a bit.
what am i doing here
I dont belong here
@@Hydrotosis I'm a creep
Idk
I'm a weirdoooo
...@@tttttttttttttttp12
Says the Bonk! Atomic Punch himself
Hilarious how there's a bunch of clips of a scout preparing to ambush and then being jumpscared by a pyro
Huge! I'm so stoked you dropped this
Scout, in my opinion, will always be the most fun class to play.
Great video.
The baby face's is easily my favorite scout primary. It gives that similar rush to chaining your rocket jumps except with more control/risk.
SAAMEEE
it's probably my least favorite weapon to use in the game
i get that it's balanced or whatever, but losing your boost feels awful
i'd much prefer if it was reverted to some iteration of it's no-jump version
@@fortnitesexman I disagree with lister's view that the current BFB is necessary. At-LEAST make it take 100 damage to lose your boost or something similar. 25 is way too punishing. Even as a Scout player who played this game for many, many years, the sudden jolt from going really high speed to moving like a slug from a few stray bullets is not only incredibly unsatisfying, but it takes your brain a good second or two to acclimate to that sudden change, which can mess up your aim and your movement and get you killed very often.
PS I'm still salty at Valve to this day for Jungle Inferno/ BFB nerfs so maybe I'm biased.
@@JeffarryLounder Personally I would have just reverted it to the original version.
@@HEHEHE_I_AM_A_SUPAHSTAR_WARRIA Same. Either revert it or buff it so it's at-least usable again.
An idea just popped in my head for a few scout weapons.
Sandman: the damage and stun should scale depending on the balls range, meaning that if you're in a closer range, it's damage would be minimal but in a longer range it will insta kill if you get a head shot.
The downside would be that it can't recharge, forcing you to literally walk your way back to the ball...and another scout player can hit your ball back towards you like it's tenis or something.
Shortstop: The weapon would be a high caliber pistol that allows the scout to fight in longer ranges. Buffing the shove does have potential for melee combos or even using it with the flying guillotine but I would prefer it being more like a mid-long range weapon in order to keep the tf2 sandbox unique.
There's a few more (bad) ideas I do have for scout but I'm like.....dying now
We got it bois
Silly little fact that probably everyone has noticed so far but i wanna point it out
The "Special Delivery" set, more specially the hat plus the "Mad Milk" is a possible reference to The MilkMan from Psychonauts. It's the same hat and, well, milk, mad milk.
"I am the Milkman, my milk is delicious"
-Scout TF2
Im gonna lose my mind if i see another comment with the "no views in X seconds, X fell off"
Only 1 like in 8 minutes? Bros comment fell off
3000 views in 1 hour, lister fell off
66k views 2 days fell off
I need diapers
no views in X seconds, X fell off
Seeing the bird scout migration was the best part of this video
when
@@Ronaldi6 near the end
@@thatguystar817ty
I used to LOVE the old BFB on Mario Kart maps, running around the track at full speed
The intro gives me serious deja vu to Tracer at the start of OW1. Everyone thought the character was terrible until one insane player proved that mobility is king.
Gamers never seem to factor "learning curve" into "viability". Everyone is so quick to call something useless until they get proven wrong or the devs buff it into a monster.
first ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
My weenie dont work
!
Lmao
dam
lucky
It was fun going down memory lane in this video. The launch version of Baby Face Blaster was insanely broken, but it was so much fun. Scout was always my 2nd most used class so I was always happy when Valve gave him new items
Chicken sandwich
Chicken sandwich 👍
chicken sandwich
“I gotta bucket of chicken”
chicken
Another evolution video im going to fall asleep to and/or wake up to everynight
The statement "Stuns don't belong to movement shooters like TF2" is just an instilled though that quickly spread over the playerbase, thanks to Uncle Dane and competitive community. Having a possibility that your movement can be taken away by a skilled shot even more amplifies the importance of movement and motivates you to improve it. Moreover Scout had only one shot in store that could be easily dodged and made Scout's movement more predictable since he would most likely attempt to pick it after failed attempt.
Stuns are what made TF2 unique and fun, they were a part of TF2's old spirit and had been here since the game release: Soldier stuns, Demo stuns, Sentry stuns and bullets push you back. Without them you would get another CS.
And I would argue that Sniper has become a major problem only because everything that could counter him got nerfed: I remember how Sandman Scouts were giving them hell. It's funny how this weapon got killed only because some TF2-youtuber-engi-main got his nose inside Valve HQ and was teaching developers how to develop *their* game. He was lucky Robin Walker wasn't around back then, otherwise he would be kicked out of the building. I would be mad too if some guy taught me how develop *my* game. And what's even funnier, after all these changes fostered by Uncle Dane half of playerbase left the game in disappointment. His statement "After 5 years players will say that the comp is the reason I started my career in TF2" seems to be aged poorly at very least.
Valve shouldn't have even attempted to please the minority that wanted to forge TF2 into something it wasn't. They got two big comp updates that almost killed TF2 only for them to crawl under their rocks which their private servers are. Truly the smallest but the loudest part of community, like a toddler.
Sorry but no one wants the game to become so predictable and repetitive thanks to unchanging meta, like CS or Overwatch. I want my items and options to have fun back.
Amazing video! The animations and editing is even better than the previous one!
Crit-a-cola was perfectly fine before 2017.
It only got nerfed cuz god forbid anything besides stock scout being usable, Comp players ruined everything...
That's a common theme. Sandman was fine. Guillotine was fine. Bonk was underpowered if not fine. Atomizer was fine. Etc.
They all got nerfed because they "weren't fine" in competitive which should have zero bearing on Casual. But of-course the comp players had to whine to Valve to change the entire balance of the game.
The shortstop is my favourite scout primary and I'm tired of people thinking it sucks
Damn 320 views in 14 minutes? Listert truly fell off R.I.P probably sleeping in a box right now
lister the typa guy to make banger videos with millions of views but somehow only have 45k subs
insert view count comment here
i cant belvie i watched a 2 hour video about scout in one sitting
No im first
On the bright side for the Fan O' War, it's one of Scout's more powerful unlocks for MvM. Marking high HP bots for death is an invaluable tool for killing them fast, especially if you milked them (not sorry) as well for heals. Love how that mode can breathe new life into some weapons.
Two things I've realized while watching:
1) I was truly playing in the glory days of Scout and to now find that I am much less effective with the class is probably a skill issue... Though I didn't use much outside of the BFB in terms of broken unlocks
2) I'm so sad I missed the bird scout migration. I don't think I've laughed this maniacally in years. Your editing was immaculate
Damn I don't have any to listen to at work
2 hour long game design discussion on a niche topic that I like by listertf2:
Oh man we about to see a lot of scouts in pubs for the next week lmao
Great videos as always
Thought this was an old video I missed then I realized it was new. Awesome! Hope to get one for the whole squad(including the medic, because I haven't seen a single video online discussing the medic)
the last medic weapon was added in 2012 so the video wouldn't be that interesting