6:06 I meant to state “with the automatic passive health giving the class Heavy from Us Defense squad twice make him powerfully significantly powerful granting an upper hand into the controller of the Heavy character from Us Defense Squad Twice”🤓
This videos should be preserved forever as documentaries of TF2 life cycle. The amount of info and footage material is just impressive. It sures worth all the time you need to create them. Congratulations and well done.
Now I’m curious. What if tf2 had the all best version of the item, there would still be nerfs but it would be the least harsh version of it. Just curious
And out of all classes, he really needs to be changed entirely. Gotta obliterate quick scoping and give him a counter that isn't himself. Spies aren't really counters due to the difficulty of getting to the sniper, and the sniper's ability to have an advantage against the spy in melee in most cases.
@@archmagemc3561 imo forcing sniper to prioritize targets and not allowing him to control entire sightlines is good, but dont remove quick scoping entirely, if someone quick scopes a scout who flanks them before the scout can kill them they deserve to live
@@coocato you could also argue that if a scout is able to put in the time and effort to travel all the way around a flank route, avoiding the entire enemy team and probably dodging most of the snipers shots from well outside his own effective range, then he deserves the kill rather than being quickscoped at point blank range. Valve needs to increase the time it takes to scope in, so that if a sniper wants to attempt a quick scope at close range there’s less chance (but still a chance) that it succeeds. If you’re going to make him really good at long range, he should at least be really weak at close range.
@@Geebanger0 here’s the thing, most of the time they do. unlike what frag montages lead you to believe, it’s way more common for a sniper to be killed by a flanking scout than the flanking scout to be killed by a sniper. while I do agree some balancing is needed, unless you’re fighting a human aimbot (or just a regular aimbot in casual lmao) sniper can usually be dealt with, albeit you do have to go out of you way to do it
it's like the part in manns guide for the beggars where Soundsmith goes on this whole speal about tf2's emphasis on accuracy before the beggars slowly moves into frame
there are so many excellent factors that make this video amazing, but i gotta point out that at 39:07 the tomislav shooting sounds matching the song was mesmerizing. please continue your work, we will always be there.
I can't imagine the nightmare of finding the correct era footage for each section of this video. Great video, brought back a lot of memories and balance change history I had forgotten about
I will never forget how annoying it was fighting against heavies when they were at their peak power. I can't believe they let you drop the sandwich for an instant 150 health, what the fuck were they thinking
I really think an unlock for Heavy's primary slot that synergizes with shotguns would be a welcome addition. Perhaps a tactical vest with a shotgun damage buff, an option of explosive or incendiary shells, either a small health boost or damage resistances like Demo's shields, and an overall small movement speed boost now that you're not lugging a minigun around. TL;DR, I want Fat Scout to be an official subclass.
i think i saw something like this on tf2 classic it was something like a belt, it lowered your health a bit to 250 and gave a faster movement speed, only by 10% and I think 50% extra secondary ammo making fat scout, something really cool tbh
I think a backpack would work better for this. If you look at the other unlocks that increase a class' max health/resistances, like the Fists of Steel, the Booties/Bootlegger and shields for Demo, the Engi's Gunslinger, Sniper's Razorback, Danger Shield and Cozy Camper, the Battalion's Backup, and even overheal and the Vaccinator's buffs, they're all easily visible at a glance to inform the opposing players that you'll be harder to kill.
@@anonecki Agreed, readability would be extremely important in a case like this. The image I have in my head would be a bulky and stylized vest that would change the Heavy’s bullet sash to shells; maybe in a similar position to Demo’s pipes on his body. There could also be an obvious and unique emblem on the back to signal what kind of shell the Heavy’s carrying. I see a backpack being hard to see from the front, and also being less thematically fitting. I just wish I had the artistic ability to put my ideas down on paper. :,)
@@thatguysteve It could be something like the Scout's backpack along with a shotgun shell bandolier on the front, bulky enough to be readable at a glance just from the silhouette alone.
Heavy is a perfect example of how a single line of text can make or break a class. I still wish his guns had a bit more variety but he’s in a pretty great spot now imo
not really natascha and huo long are bad and need a complete rework, brass beast needs its downsides softened and old damage resistance back, dalokohs needs its healing increased to 150, steak needs so many buffs, like uncapping the speed, warriors spirits damage vulnerability should be replaced with honorbound, eviction notice needs its damage increased and health drain replaced with a small damage vulnerability, and heavy should be able to switch weapons while unrevving (this bug was supposedly fixed in 2015 but still remains)
@@Dr_Dan_ just because you CAN kill someone with a weapon doesn't automatically make it good, weapons like the bison are really bad but it is still possible to kill people with it, same with most of heavy's weapons, you can kill people with them but they are still pretty bad
@@caoistico669 Dr Enforcicle was the nickname for Dead Ringer/Enforcer/Icicle knife. At the time, DR could still pick up cloak from ammo, so it was trivial to fill it up to tank damage for another surprise attack. Enforcer had more damage when undisguised IIRC, so you could just fight people. Icicle + DR made it extremely difficult for Pyros to find you.
Nearly a year late but a lot of different game communities used to do this but it pretty much fell off when people stopped treating it like exclusive clubs. It generally confused new players and not much else
Worth Mentioning- Initially, when the Huo Long Heater was released, it was bugged- Shooting while rev'd did not cause an additional ammo drain, it was the same as being rev'd without shooting. This was fixed pretty quickly!
I think that Heavy’s greatest strength is that he has the luxury that is time. Specifically, the time to aim and think about his next move. His massive health pool allows him to have just a bit more time to do things that the other classes have only a split second to consider.
Explaining Heavy's intended weaknesses, and they balance him out, at the beginning really helps illuminate just how stupid the Tommy Gruvich load-out was.
It's nice seeing my favorite and main class getting some love! Great video as always, and like you said heavy's biggest weakness is his own positioning. It's a hard thing to learn that can only be done with practice, like learning how to weave unpredictably while shooting and what optimum positions provide ample cover (like the payload) because heavy does shoot out of his face. He is most effective as a team player, but the second banana seriously does open up the solo heavy playstyle if desired (and it is very fun). If positioned right, heavy can be a menace, but if done so poorly, he may as well be the fifth spy on your team. Another thing I'd like to add is that although the tomislav is silent rev, there is a very distinct sound after immediately pressing M2 so jump revving constantly with it may give away your position as quickly as the minigun anyway, but it definitely is a great sidegrade. Also yes the GRU are in a great state that reward intelligent play, and the speed is so beneficial I actually run it way more than the FOS unless it's a very open map and the engie is keeping teleporters up.
as a former heavy main (now pyro) i have to say that the reduced damage when you start spinning completely ruins the experience. i recently tried getting into playing heavy again and i shit you not, i got more done just going fat scout, using the shotgun for burst damage and the GRU for running in and fishing for random melee crits. the miniguns are absolute garbage when your team isn't already winning. i do agree with you on the GRU, i love how the GRU play now, great counter for vaccinator medics and FOS heavies when you can catch them off guard, much better than the old ones which were completely useless in combat.
I played TF2 very actively from roughly 2010-2013 and recently came back to the game. These videos are a great way to get up to speed with the game and to find out what happened in the years I haven't played
That was really well researched video, I too remember when Heavy was a beast to fight and fight as. I hope you look at Sniper next as he does seem to be the "most powerful" class at this time.
The fact Sniper never needs to reload makes him over powered And no, him manually ejecting a spent cartridge is NOT reloading; that's just how bolt-action rifles work
@@Chud_Bud_Supreme i don’t believe he’s ovepowered in general because he can be beaten by proper team communication but in pubs a dude will get shot in the face and tell no one
As someone who tries to give callouts in pubs, it is often difficult to describe a sniper's sightline and position, especially if the sniper is aware enough to reposition like an awper. Though yelling at the heavy to not cross the sightline always works
I loved this video! I've been playing since Summer 2010 and this video made me so nostalgic! It's a shame that the Huo Long was the last Heavy primary to be released, but if there ever is a Heavy update, a new primary would be at the top of my list! Maybe one that allows you to jump while revved for a penalty, or one that removes the ability to hold rev with alt-fire in exchange for a buff or new utility mapped to alt-fire?
@@themantherealone I wouldn't say top 3, for me that'd be Mario, Pac Man, and Steve. But definitely top 5 PC gaming icons and probably top 10/15 gaming icons in general.
What a well-written, comprehensive, and insightful lens into game balance once again. I feel like this video would change a lot of minds of people that perceive Heavy as a very simple and dumbed-down class balance-wise.
The moment he started talking about how the miniguns core weakness of being slow to start up was what kept the class balanced, I literally said out loud "....let me guess. Then the tomislav was added?"
I've been playing TF2 since 2012 and the only good things we had were Tomislav, GRU and the Second Banana (ironically), which made Heavy more viable (but just as suffering) alone. It's still a class that depends a bit too much of Medic and other players to be powerful with the easiest counterplay of the game, you can only go so far with gamesense.
@@glitchieslk4224 he said he was playing tf2 since 2012 and he is saying that the the only things that were good to heavy were the GRU the banana and the tomislav
I got sent this my way after a friend saw a video of mine was used. So uh thanks for using it as an example of the Natascha in the 2014-15 era :V This is a well made video and your voice is easy to listen to. I'm sure it must have taken a long time to sift through the different years of updates. I even forgot some of these changes, like the fact the Love & War minigun change had the damage/spread reset after you stopped firing. What a time :V
Jungle inferno gave heavy a rival to the sandvich, now imagine if heavy got his own update instead of pyro The heavy meta would be turned inside out and flipped on it's head
@@Dr_Dan_ The thing is, all the new pyro weapons were mediocre. I know everyone voted for pyro so he could finally be fixed, but they said that his bugs would've been fixed either way.
@@Dr_Dan_ dragon fury was the only good one, thermal thruster was cool but buggy, hot hand is a joke item, and gas passer is only good on mvm. in all honesty, second banana was the best item out of the update.
These videos are so fun and interesting, I especially love how good of a grasp you have on the game's balance, it really adds a lot of context behind all of the changes. Keep it up!
The ironic thing about calling the kgb a “straight upgrade” is the fact that someone who has a “gotta get my moneys worth” mindset like myself would try to get melee kills in ridiculous situations, and end up being killed way more often than if they just had the stock fists.
18:13 I think I remember that during the first couple days of Dalokosh Bar being released it could actually increase overheal to 500, but they quickly removed that feature and capped it at 450.
This is not a video, this is a full historic documental film! Your work is insanely good, i can't remember any TF2 related videos like yours. Keep it up, you are doing god's work!
I haven't been there around the time there wasn't a 1 second damage penalty on the miniguns, but I feel like they should remove it completely. Like, you are already open to attacks when not revved up, making sure you have little to no chance is just miserable to experience.
yeah, the ramp ups took me a while to not only articulate why they were added, but also my own thoughts of them. ultimately i decided to not comment on the decision to keep them in jungle inferno and only noted how they were drastically improved, but personally i think having some sort of ramp up is better than not. the accuracy ramp up is what irks me though, because it takes control away from you. maybe they could increase the damage penalty even more but make accuracy start out higher? so that if you get ambushed, you have the potential to dish out that 500+ DPS, but ONLY if you have god-like tracking skills
It just makes running away, the first and easiest strategy against Heavy, a no-brainer. Heavy is just really powerful with a Medic, no need to make him weak when fighting alone.
man that plok boss music at the end with the natascha was amazing 🤣 this was quite a ride, thank you so much for the hard work, this was an amazing video!
man, I LOVED the Tough Break Eviction Notice. Playing mainly pubs, the GRU's Marked for Death would come back to bite you even more often with a random Scout or Spy appearing as you're walking towards the front lines. The Eviction Notice let you escape that, plus it worked as a decent way to escape from Pyros, Spies, or even some Scouts who got up close when you didn't have a rev ready. Just bap 'em once and fly away towards your team. And then they slaughtered it, treating it just as a mini GRU and shoving the same health-decreasing penalty on it, but halved. Being TF2, however, it was bugged so that it took something like 2 times longer to return to a full 300 max HP than the GRU did, which effectively meant that not only did the GRU get you places faster, its downside faded faster. But that's Jungle Inferno for you.
Hell yeah Plok! Boss theme. I remember playing TF2 shortly before Love and War I had 10 years back then and now 20. It's always how you portrait the events of the updates with footage of back in the days, I didn't know a lot heavy before unlike the Pyro video. Good work👍
During the Very Scary Halloween Special, Heavy got the FrankenHeavy set, which, when equipped, made all of Heavy’s stock taunts the FrankenHeavy taunt. People would pair this with a lunchbox item since the FrankenHeavy taunt was faster than the eating taunt. (This eventually got fixed)
I played this game long enough to see all these updates happen, and still laughed out loud when I saw the original tomislav spinup time again. I had completely forgotten how ridiculously broken it used to be
I love how there’s just an era where every class is ridiculously OP, heavy with the ridiculous weapons, engie with the wrangler and gunslinger, spy with the dead ringer and enforcer, etc
@@turkishjanitor3666 yes, and 30000 hour sniper players still suck to fight. “oh just stay out of the sightlines” dude it’s literally a third of the map. “oh just flank him and get close” he already either quickscoped me or jarate-bushwacka’d me before you finished your sentence. any class that can use hitscan to - with almost zero exceptions - one shot *anybody* at *any distance* is overpowered. sniper is only balanced by someone being bad at playing sniper.
I never played the game but I really enjoy you "evolution" series. Reminds me when I played WoW a long time ago and was outraged by every single balancing patch released XD
Oh, i didn't thought that the class with a pretty simple concept of a tank would have pretty big history of balance changes. Great job! Maybe i'm a little too fast asking about this, but did you already have any thoughts about what class is going to be reviewed next? Would be pretty cool if it's Sniper, because TF2 has one of the most interesting and complicated realization of this very trivial concept in a whole game industry. And he's gone throught many changes that made him more of a support class (jarate, sydney sleeper), more agressive (huntsman, bazaar bargain) or more casual to play (DDS, bodyshot machines, bushwacka). Don't think that i'm forcing you to do this, it's just suggestion
39:06 Don't think I didn't notice you picking a song that had the same bpm as the tomislav's rof. Very neat, and I loved it (I legit replayed that part a few times)
Thorought this video, i hear the echoes of the modern era, "heavy needs a rework!" Yet he used to have things SO much worse x_x This was awesome! Could you do an Evolution of Scout? I think the nerfs and buffs of his weapons play into that evolution
The update history of the heavy is the definition of a mixed bag, with an almost equal amount of positive and negative changes spread out through many years (which can be said about tf2 updates in general, Funny that heavy even embodys the update side of the game he represents) but I wholeheartedly believe that the chain ended on a highnote thanks to jungle inferno's minigun buffs and the second banana. I hope we see a dedicated heavy exclusive update someday but even if we don't I think heavy is in a okay spot as he is
“We’re very wary of keeping a class’s weaknesses” And then the Bushwhacka was born, removing the concept of “Weakens with proximity” by letting you deal full fucking crits for free to people who you’re supposed to have a hard time with. People complain about Kukri random crits but it’s like if that had a 100% crit rate when he throws a jar of piss or uses his cleaner’s carbine.
This is a incredibly well made video!! I love listening about the history of tf2 updates. I only started playing 2016 so I missed out the majority of the updates. I hope you make one about Soldier someday, thats my favorite class :) A great watch as usual, thanks.
As someone with 1k+ in game Pyro hours, I wish heavy won the vote... The update was overall a nerf for higher skill combo pyros and it killed airblast in so many ways
holy crap 2 hour of edited video and commentary about the beloved team based first person shooter gaben newell team for tress 2 weapon heavy guy??? this is amazing!!!
Its weird to imagine a time when gamers had to come up with strategies themselves instead of just watching a simple RUclips guide, its weird but also cool.
I prefer it that way, since it meant that founding out the meta wasn’t as quick or easy, and you didn’t see meta loadouts as often, both in TF2 and other shooters.
Most skilled players still do. A guide can only teach you mechanics and tools, they almost never can teach you how to mix someone up or get into their head. Adapt to someones tutorial stat and they won't know what to do.
This video is amazing. The music fits perfectly with what you are saying. Also the Huo-Long Heater is pronounced as Hua Long Heater. I hope you keep uploading these types of videos as they are interesting and informative.
I love these videos. For me it's a trip down memory lane, as I started playing in March 2008. A lot of the things you mentioned I had completely forgot about until you brought it back up again. Do consider doing Scout, although take all the time you need. I just have a personal bias towards Scout given I played him since 2010 as a main.
Really really good video, hope to see more of these really longform history videos of the other classes, though not every class may have as much going on as heavy and spy
From the quality of this video and the previous TF2 character history videos, you're definitely going to become an extremely popular youtuber for sure. Good luck and keep the amazing quality up
It's really interesting to watch the back-and-forth balancing of the Heavy since he's arguably the class most affected by the state of the game. I do think that makes it difficult to introduce new weapons to his playstyles which are already pretty niche. Still, I think it would be interesting if Valve introduced some other viable playstyle compared to needing a medic 24/7 or being a quick-switch in comp. I genuinely wouldn't know how to balance a new minigun but for secondaries, something like a new shotgun that ramped-up in damage and/or speed if you landed shots could require more skill to use while giving enemies some extra time to react compared to jump-revs which are annoying enough to face, especially with the heavy's movement tools like the GRU as you mentioned in the video. It would still reward your tracking skills which a good Heavy needs, and this could open up alternatives for miniguns that are more supportive, either for yourself or your team to make up for the lack of a portable medkit. It could also mean the creation of a primary more mobility-based (more so than the Tomislav) that needs to be paired with the shotgun to be properly useful. Definitely not a dev but there's such a weird line in balancing this class and you did an awesome job showcasing that. Looking forward to the future videos :)
If you make one of these for every class, i pray for you, because that is a LOT of time spent on research, script writing, voice-over, and holy hell the editing. I am honestly surprised you managed to get something with this quality out just 6 months after the first one.
I was half-asleep and didn't notice that the video was one hour and 40 minutes long. I started watching it with the presupposition that it's a 10-20 minute video, but ended up watching the entire thing and only after finishing it and seeing that it's dark outside did I realize that I was captivated all throughout the long runtime and didn't even notice it.
In my opinion as someone with decent hours on spy the flames wont help if your fighting you wont hear the hit sound (if you have one) because if your fighting the other team you will assume the hit sound came from them
![The Evolution of Engineer [TF2]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/2K3q-YznZCI/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Evolution of Engineer [TF2]](/img/tr.png)
![The Evolution of Demoknight [TF2]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/eGPXG_tTnKI/mqdefault.jpg)
![The Evolution of Scout [TF2]](/img/1.gif)
6:06 i meant to say "with the passive healing of the MEDIGUN" but speaking is 2hard
speaking is very hard
@@Ziggylata indeed.
6:06 I meant to state “with the automatic passive health giving the class Heavy from Us Defense squad twice make him powerfully significantly powerful granting an upper hand into the controller of the Heavy character from Us Defense Squad Twice”🤓
as the tf2 medic i call it mini gun half of the time
I mean, a minigun that gives slow healing while revved would be an interesting idea. Maybe it'd have an ammo cost like the Huo-Long Heater.
This videos should be preserved forever as documentaries of TF2 life cycle.
The amount of info and footage material is just impressive. It sures worth all the time you need to create them.
Congratulations and well done.
Agree
Now I’m curious. What if tf2 had the all best version of the item, there would still be nerfs but it would be the least harsh version of it. Just curious
sir yes sir
@@Ttegegg 2010 Natasha 💀
@@Ttegegg actually nvm imagine the og dead ringer
As a new player, the tomislav with 75% faster spin up looked fucking terrifying
looks like a 10x server
I kinda wish that 75% stayed, but with a reduction in pellets. It was more accurate but only shot 2 pellets
It was
Tomislav jumpscare
This was before the ramp up nerf. So yeah I recall how horrifying it was.
I look forward to the evolution of sniper, should be an entertaining 30 seconds as you explain how he hasn’t changed since the game released
And out of all classes, he really needs to be changed entirely. Gotta obliterate quick scoping and give him a counter that isn't himself. Spies aren't really counters due to the difficulty of getting to the sniper, and the sniper's ability to have an advantage against the spy in melee in most cases.
If I’m not mistaken, sniper also has the only gun (gun, not weapon in general) that hasn’t been changed once in the history of the game. The Machina.
@@archmagemc3561 imo forcing sniper to prioritize targets and not allowing him to control entire sightlines is good, but dont remove quick scoping entirely, if someone quick scopes a scout who flanks them before the scout can kill them they deserve to live
@@coocato you could also argue that if a scout is able to put in the time and effort to travel all the way around a flank route, avoiding the entire enemy team and probably dodging most of the snipers shots from well outside his own effective range, then he deserves the kill rather than being quickscoped at point blank range.
Valve needs to increase the time it takes to scope in, so that if a sniper wants to attempt a quick scope at close range there’s less chance (but still a chance) that it succeeds. If you’re going to make him really good at long range, he should at least be really weak at close range.
@@Geebanger0 here’s the thing, most of the time they do. unlike what frag montages lead you to believe, it’s way more common for a sniper to be killed by a flanking scout than the flanking scout to be killed by a sniper. while I do agree some balancing is needed, unless you’re fighting a human aimbot (or just a regular aimbot in casual lmao) sniper can usually be dealt with, albeit you do have to go out of you way to do it
throughout the entire bit about heavy's balance resting on the minigun's rev up time i could just feel what was coming next
it's like the part in manns guide for the beggars where Soundsmith goes on this whole speal about tf2's emphasis on accuracy before the beggars slowly moves into frame
there are so many excellent factors that make this video amazing, but i gotta point out that at 39:07 the tomislav shooting sounds matching the song was mesmerizing. please continue your work, we will always be there.
PLEASES anyone make this a mod.
@@李杜欸搞笑 X10
I can't imagine the nightmare of finding the correct era footage for each section of this video. Great video, brought back a lot of memories and balance change history I had forgotten about
I will never forget how annoying it was fighting against heavies when they were at their peak power. I can't believe they let you drop the sandwich for an instant 150 health, what the fuck were they thinking
I don't want to be that guy but seeing cybershell with 3 likes just seems off. I mean come on, it's cybershell
lmao heavy has always been a joke class even at his most powerful. nothing compared to soldier scout or demo
sure hope somebody got fired for that blunder, huh?
probably just dev lazyness
@@ganglandsublimity this has got to be the weirdest tf2 take ive read
please explain what you mean this comment's giving me brain damage
lister you’re truly underrated, making high quality long length videos.
truu
fr this video is a hour
@@hellcatanalian almost 2 hours
But it's too much long
@@amirryousuff6549 there never such thing as too long
I really think an unlock for Heavy's primary slot that synergizes with shotguns would be a welcome addition. Perhaps a tactical vest with a shotgun damage buff, an option of explosive or incendiary shells, either a small health boost or damage resistances like Demo's shields, and an overall small movement speed boost now that you're not lugging a minigun around.
TL;DR, I want Fat Scout to be an official subclass.
so the brass beast considering the shotgun is probably one of the better secondarys to use before getting into position?
i think i saw something like this on tf2 classic
it was something like a belt, it lowered your health a bit to 250 and gave a faster movement speed, only by 10% and I think 50% extra secondary ammo
making fat scout, something really cool tbh
I think a backpack would work better for this. If you look at the other unlocks that increase a class' max health/resistances, like the Fists of Steel, the Booties/Bootlegger and shields for Demo, the Engi's Gunslinger, Sniper's Razorback, Danger Shield and Cozy Camper, the Battalion's Backup, and even overheal and the Vaccinator's buffs, they're all easily visible at a glance to inform the opposing players that you'll be harder to kill.
@@anonecki Agreed, readability would be extremely important in a case like this. The image I have in my head would be a bulky and stylized vest that would change the Heavy’s bullet sash to shells; maybe in a similar position to Demo’s pipes on his body. There could also be an obvious and unique emblem on the back to signal what kind of shell the Heavy’s carrying.
I see a backpack being hard to see from the front, and also being less thematically fitting.
I just wish I had the artistic ability to put my ideas down on paper. :,)
@@thatguysteve It could be something like the Scout's backpack along with a shotgun shell bandolier on the front, bulky enough to be readable at a glance just from the silhouette alone.
Heavy is a perfect example of how a single line of text can make or break a class. I still wish his guns had a bit more variety but he’s in a pretty great spot now imo
not really
natascha and huo long are bad and need a complete rework, brass beast needs its downsides softened and old damage resistance back, dalokohs needs its healing increased to 150, steak needs so many buffs, like uncapping the speed, warriors spirits damage vulnerability should be replaced with honorbound, eviction notice needs its damage increased and health drain replaced with a small damage vulnerability, and heavy should be able to switch weapons while unrevving (this bug was supposedly fixed in 2015 but still remains)
@@dkskcjfjswwwwwws413 better underpowered than overpowered, + you still can do just fine with any of those unlocks
@@Dr_Dan_ just because you CAN kill someone with a weapon doesn't automatically make it good, weapons like the bison are really bad but it is still possible to kill people with it, same with most of heavy's weapons, you can kill people with them but they are still pretty bad
@@TheZombieTurkey??? Where did i mentioned the goodnes of weapons? I said that it better be underpowered than overpowered
@@Dr_Dan_ then don't use it as a point lol
The Team Fabulous 2 speed hacking heavy got me 😂
Doo yooh rhemnmmembhur vodka?
@@davidhong1934 sandvich
*1:13*
@@twistedkarma9574 let this be lesson for you!
Team Fabulous 2 should be some kind of mod that makes TF2 look better
This is absurdly good. The research and what's on screen is top tier.
I can’t believe it! ruclips.net/video/OpERSk1tEWU/видео.html
As a newer person playing tf2 I wish people still named a combo of items like "Dr enforicle" and "Tommy gruvich" its just so interesting
I dont remember os seeing that, but i also dont play casual ora any kind of only method, only off line, but i... Dont know :)
Those nicknames are from before even quickplay
@@caoistico669 Dr Enforcicle was the nickname for Dead Ringer/Enforcer/Icicle knife. At the time, DR could still pick up cloak from ammo, so it was trivial to fill it up to tank damage for another surprise attack. Enforcer had more damage when undisguised IIRC, so you could just fight people. Icicle + DR made it extremely difficult for Pyros to find you.
@@Appletank8 get it, cool and thx
Nearly a year late but a lot of different game communities used to do this but it pretty much fell off when people stopped treating it like exclusive clubs. It generally confused new players and not much else
Worth Mentioning-
Initially, when the Huo Long Heater was released, it was bugged-
Shooting while rev'd did not cause an additional ammo drain, it was the same as being rev'd without shooting.
This was fixed pretty quickly!
Thanks for mentioning
I think that Heavy’s greatest strength is that he has the luxury that is time. Specifically, the time to aim and think about his next move. His massive health pool allows him to have just a bit more time to do things that the other classes have only a split second to consider.
I havent watched the video yet but im so glad there is a new episode. So far this series is killer! It's fun to listen to these small facts.
The accuracy buff on the tomislav is basically a double edged sword, it’s a buff for longer ranges but a nerf to close ranges
Holy Hell, how do you output so much high quality content, fantastic job, 10/10
Explaining Heavy's intended weaknesses, and they balance him out, at the beginning really helps illuminate just how stupid the Tommy Gruvich load-out was.
It's nice seeing my favorite and main class getting some love! Great video as always, and like you said heavy's biggest weakness is his own positioning. It's a hard thing to learn that can only be done with practice, like learning how to weave unpredictably while shooting and what optimum positions provide ample cover (like the payload) because heavy does shoot out of his face. He is most effective as a team player, but the second banana seriously does open up the solo heavy playstyle if desired (and it is very fun). If positioned right, heavy can be a menace, but if done so poorly, he may as well be the fifth spy on your team.
Another thing I'd like to add is that although the tomislav is silent rev, there is a very distinct sound after immediately pressing M2 so jump revving constantly with it may give away your position as quickly as the minigun anyway, but it definitely is a great sidegrade. Also yes the GRU are in a great state that reward intelligent play, and the speed is so beneficial I actually run it way more than the FOS unless it's a very open map and the engie is keeping teleporters up.
you literally said that for me i was about to comment that myself lol
yooo heres another heavy main 😊
as a former heavy main (now pyro) i have to say that the reduced damage when you start spinning completely ruins the experience.
i recently tried getting into playing heavy again and i shit you not, i got more done just going fat scout, using the shotgun for burst damage and the GRU for running in and fishing for random melee crits.
the miniguns are absolute garbage when your team isn't already winning.
i do agree with you on the GRU, i love how the GRU play now, great counter for vaccinator medics and FOS heavies when you can catch them off guard, much better than the old ones which were completely useless in combat.
I played TF2 very actively from roughly 2010-2013 and recently came back to the game. These videos are a great way to get up to speed with the game and to find out what happened in the years I haven't played
That was really well researched video, I too remember when Heavy was a beast to fight and fight as.
I hope you look at Sniper next as he does seem to be the "most powerful" class at this time.
Not only the most "powerful" but also the most used by bots as they are a automatically critting/mini-critting on headshot with just 1 bullet
The fact Sniper never needs to reload makes him over powered
And no, him manually ejecting a spent cartridge is NOT reloading; that's just how bolt-action rifles work
holy fuck its whomobile.
@@Chud_Bud_Supreme i don’t believe he’s ovepowered in general because he can be beaten by proper team communication but in pubs a dude will get shot in the face and tell no one
As someone who tries to give callouts in pubs, it is often difficult to describe a sniper's sightline and position, especially if the sniper is aware enough to reposition like an awper. Though yelling at the heavy to not cross the sightline always works
I loved this video! I've been playing since Summer 2010 and this video made me so nostalgic! It's a shame that the Huo Long was the last Heavy primary to be released, but if there ever is a Heavy update, a new primary would be at the top of my list! Maybe one that allows you to jump while revved for a penalty, or one that removes the ability to hold rev with alt-fire in exchange for a buff or new utility mapped to alt-fire?
Ah Heavy, The face of TF2, and all the other mercs
As a paid mercenary, I can confirm everyone thinks of me as the heavy
Heavy is definitely top 3 most ironic and iconic gaming characters
@@themantherealone ah yes he is more popular than sonic mario and pac-man
@@themantherealone I wouldn't say top 3, for me that'd be Mario, Pac Man, and Steve. But definitely top 5 PC gaming icons and probably top 10/15 gaming icons in general.
@@themantherealone Ah yes, the most ironic gaming character
PLEASE DO MORE OF THESE
They are so entertaining and so high quality, I really enjoyed the spy one. Keep up the good work, man!
What a well-written, comprehensive, and insightful lens into game balance once again.
I feel like this video would change a lot of minds of people that perceive Heavy as a very simple and dumbed-down class balance-wise.
People who think heavy is dumb are mostly sniper mains who think twitch aiming is the only expression of skill in gaming.
@@Skullhawk13Both classes revolves around Mouse2 + Mouse1, funnily enough.
The moment he started talking about how the miniguns core weakness of being slow to start up was what kept the class balanced, I literally said out loud "....let me guess. Then the tomislav was added?"
It’s so interesting to see how this game evolves and changes from 2007-now thanks for giving a good perspective in these videos!
I've been playing TF2 since 2012 and the only good things we had were Tomislav, GRU and the Second Banana (ironically), which made Heavy more viable (but just as suffering) alone. It's still a class that depends a bit too much of Medic and other players to be powerful with the easiest counterplay of the game, you can only go so far with gamesense.
Wasn't the Second Banana added in 2017?
@@glitchieslk4224 he said he was playing tf2 since 2012 and he is saying that the the only things that were good to heavy were the GRU the banana and the tomislav
@@albinskywalker Sandvich was always great, and the Family Bussiness, while the best shotgun of the game is far less relevant for Heavy.
i stomped a game as brass beast fat scout, the superior way to play heavy.
so your name is Tommy Gru II ?
I can assure you all 7.4 heavy mains faces were giddy with excitement when this video was released
*Don't ask me where the .4 comes from*
Poor billy, he was a f2p, stepped on a landmine
@@LMC764 This would've been a dark joke...
...but it got really bright for a half of second.
@@NotAGingerISwear THINK FAST CHUCKLENUTS
Heavys second mains, this is where the .4 come from
the .4 is just big joey equating to 1.4 heavy main
the amount of detail put into this virtual character is insane and awesome man
I think it would be fun to give him another primary option, of like a giant chainsaw that gives you a big speed boost holding it
TF2C?
@@feinky8489 is that a thing in there?
@@thehoodedteddy1335 yea
Playing Dead By Daylight in TF2
"Don't run, baby! Wood do no run!"
I got sent this my way after a friend saw a video of mine was used. So uh thanks for using it as an example of the Natascha in the 2014-15 era :V This is a well made video and your voice is easy to listen to. I'm sure it must have taken a long time to sift through the different years of updates. I even forgot some of these changes, like the fact the Love & War minigun change had the damage/spread reset after you stopped firing. What a time :V
Yay new Lister video! I know I'll have some PTSD when you cover the spin up nerf that happened back in the day and made it harder to turn corners.
Jungle inferno gave heavy a rival to the sandvich, now imagine if heavy got his own update instead of pyro
The heavy meta would be turned inside out and flipped on it's head
They give heavy a jet pack💀
pyro deserved the update way more, lets be real
@@Dr_Dan_ The thing is, all the new pyro weapons were mediocre. I know everyone voted for pyro so he could finally be fixed, but they said that his bugs would've been fixed either way.
@@seva7500 his weapons where bussin as fuck
@@Dr_Dan_ dragon fury was the only good one, thermal thruster was cool but buggy, hot hand is a joke item, and gas passer is only good on mvm. in all honesty, second banana was the best item out of the update.
I genuinely cannot imagine any other class being the mascot.
soldier
soldier
Scout n' soldier
spy and scout have felt mascotty (is that a word?)
Tfw all your characters are so iconic they all could be considered as the mascot of your game.
These videos are so fun and interesting, I especially love how good of a grasp you have on the game's balance, it really adds a lot of context behind all of the changes. Keep it up!
The ironic thing about calling the kgb a “straight upgrade” is the fact that someone who has a “gotta get my moneys worth” mindset like myself would try to get melee kills in ridiculous situations, and end up being killed way more often than if they just had the stock fists.
I love how you used old music that was relevent back in each year you talked about
18:13 I think I remember that during the first couple days of Dalokosh Bar being released it could actually increase overheal to 500, but they quickly removed that feature and capped it at 450.
I too remember that you were able to eat it multiple times (at some point) but that was also a massive waste of time.
This is not a video, this is a full historic documental film! Your work is insanely good, i can't remember any TF2 related videos like yours. Keep it up, you are doing god's work!
I haven't been there around the time there wasn't a 1 second damage penalty on the miniguns, but I feel like they should remove it completely.
Like, you are already open to attacks when not revved up, making sure you have little to no chance is just miserable to experience.
yeah, the ramp ups took me a while to not only articulate why they were added, but also my own thoughts of them. ultimately i decided to not comment on the decision to keep them in jungle inferno and only noted how they were drastically improved, but personally i think having some sort of ramp up is better than not. the accuracy ramp up is what irks me though, because it takes control away from you. maybe they could increase the damage penalty even more but make accuracy start out higher? so that if you get ambushed, you have the potential to dish out that 500+ DPS, but ONLY if you have god-like tracking skills
It just makes running away, the first and easiest strategy against Heavy, a no-brainer. Heavy is just really powerful with a Medic, no need to make him weak when fighting alone.
man that plok boss music at the end with the natascha was amazing 🤣 this was quite a ride, thank you so much for the hard work, this was an amazing video!
Lister!! You’re back and with another banger I see. Love your content and editing!
man, I LOVED the Tough Break Eviction Notice. Playing mainly pubs, the GRU's Marked for Death would come back to bite you even more often with a random Scout or Spy appearing as you're walking towards the front lines. The Eviction Notice let you escape that, plus it worked as a decent way to escape from Pyros, Spies, or even some Scouts who got up close when you didn't have a rev ready. Just bap 'em once and fly away towards your team.
And then they slaughtered it, treating it just as a mini GRU and shoving the same health-decreasing penalty on it, but halved. Being TF2, however, it was bugged so that it took something like 2 times longer to return to a full 300 max HP than the GRU did, which effectively meant that not only did the GRU get you places faster, its downside faded faster. But that's Jungle Inferno for you.
I LOVE how the music is synced with the Tomislav shooting at the “Reveal of the Tomislav” part
God seeing the old airblast, sandman and other old weapons brings back amazing memories.
Hell yeah Plok! Boss theme.
I remember playing TF2 shortly before Love and War I had 10 years back then and now 20.
It's always how you portrait the events of the updates with footage of back in the days, I didn't know a lot heavy before unlike the Pyro video.
Good work👍
During the Very Scary Halloween Special, Heavy got the FrankenHeavy set, which, when equipped, made all of Heavy’s stock taunts the FrankenHeavy taunt. People would pair this with a lunchbox item since the FrankenHeavy taunt was faster than the eating taunt.
(This eventually got fixed)
I remember this I also had some fun using the choklate with it.
I played this game long enough to see all these updates happen, and still laughed out loud when I saw the original tomislav spinup time again. I had completely forgotten how ridiculously broken it used to be
one ticket for « Heavy: The rise of Gru » please
That's so damn smart I love it
@@-Womp_Womp-jf4qeagreed
these videos just keep getting longer and longer! nice job man keep up the good work
I love how there’s just an era where every class is ridiculously OP, heavy with the ridiculous weapons, engie with the wrangler and gunslinger, spy with the dead ringer and enforcer, etc
and then sniper, whose era has lasted from 2007 to current time
@@themilkman6969 ever tried playing on a community server that's actually moderated and thus free of bots?
@@turkishjanitor3666
yes, and 30000 hour sniper players still suck to fight. “oh just stay out of the sightlines” dude it’s literally a third of the map. “oh just flank him and get close” he already either quickscoped me or jarate-bushwacka’d me before you finished your sentence. any class that can use hitscan to - with almost zero exceptions - one shot *anybody* at *any distance* is overpowered. sniper is only balanced by someone being bad at playing sniper.
I never played the game but I really enjoy you "evolution" series. Reminds me when I played WoW a long time ago and was outraged by every single balancing patch released XD
Oh, i didn't thought that the class with a pretty simple concept of a tank would have pretty big history of balance changes. Great job! Maybe i'm a little too fast asking about this, but did you already have any thoughts about what class is going to be reviewed next? Would be pretty cool if it's Sniper, because TF2 has one of the most interesting and complicated realization of this very trivial concept in a whole game industry. And he's gone throught many changes that made him more of a support class (jarate, sydney sleeper), more agressive (huntsman, bazaar bargain) or more casual to play (DDS, bodyshot machines, bushwacka). Don't think that i'm forcing you to do this, it's just suggestion
1 hour and 40 minutes tf2 video in 2022, this is a dream! Thanks for the quality and entertainment!
1:13 what a lovely reference
The best contact creator in the i’ve ever seen talking that much detail in tf2
39:06 Don't think I didn't notice you picking a song that had the same bpm as the tomislav's rof. Very neat, and I loved it (I legit replayed that part a few times)
i cheated and sped up the tomislav slightly but dont tell anyone
@@listertf2 honestly I couldn't really tell
Yoo I've spent a few months trying to find a video like this. Thank you mate
Thorought this video, i hear the echoes of the modern era, "heavy needs a rework!" Yet he used to have things SO much worse x_x
This was awesome! Could you do an Evolution of Scout? I think the nerfs and buffs of his weapons play into that evolution
i cant believe i watched a movies length of someone talking about heavy
The update history of the heavy is the definition of a mixed bag, with an almost equal amount of positive and negative changes spread out through many years (which can be said about tf2 updates in general, Funny that heavy even embodys the update side of the game he represents) but I wholeheartedly believe that the chain ended on a highnote thanks to jungle inferno's minigun buffs and the second banana. I hope we see a dedicated heavy exclusive update someday but even if we don't I think heavy is in a okay spot as he is
The clip at 6:17 is so funny to me. The heavy just goes *Boing* around the corner from the demo's own stickies.
It's kinda worth mentioning that even though Brass Beast is decent in Pubs, It's common to see in MVM Matches a meta minigun, Or even stock
“We’re very wary of keeping a class’s weaknesses”
And then the Bushwhacka was born, removing the concept of “Weakens with proximity” by letting you deal full fucking crits for free to people who you’re supposed to have a hard time with. People complain about Kukri random crits but it’s like if that had a 100% crit rate when he throws a jar of piss or uses his cleaner’s carbine.
Seeing how many changes and updates Heavy got is honestly incredible. Thank you for showing this.
super impressive how high quality this video is! great job and thanks for the massive effort!
I like playing Heavy on Payload maps. Just glue myself to the cart for unlimmited ammo/heal and don't stop pressing the m1 button.
This is a incredibly well made video!! I love listening about the history of tf2 updates. I only started playing 2016 so I missed out the majority of the updates. I hope you make one about Soldier someday, thats my favorite class :)
A great watch as usual, thanks.
As someone with 1k+ in game Pyro hours, I wish heavy won the vote... The update was overall a nerf for higher skill combo pyros and it killed airblast in so many ways
Maybe... but the Pyro fixes were needed even if he is still is pretty bad. Though I would argue that he is definetly NOT as bad as post Tough Break
holy crap 2 hour of edited video and commentary about the beloved team based first person shooter gaben newell team for tress 2 weapon heavy guy??? this is amazing!!!
Its weird to imagine a time when gamers had to come up with strategies themselves instead of just watching a simple RUclips guide, its weird but also cool.
I prefer it that way, since it meant that founding out the meta wasn’t as quick or easy, and you didn’t see meta loadouts as often, both in TF2 and other shooters.
Most skilled players still do. A guide can only teach you mechanics and tools, they almost never can teach you how to mix someone up or get into their head. Adapt to someones tutorial stat and they won't know what to do.
it is good day to be not dead:edit: right from the beginning i was just waiting for the dalokohs bar glitch or exploit
I find it weird that heavy was clearly balanced around being slow, but tanky and strong, so they came up with unlocks to negate all of his downsides.
Funny how the GRU in MVM still give the Heavy robots marked for death stats
This video is amazing. The music fits perfectly with what you are saying. Also the Huo-Long Heater is pronounced as Hua Long Heater. I hope you keep uploading these types of videos as they are interesting and informative.
Hate to be the pronunciation police, but “Huo” means “fire” in Chinese and is very much not pronounced “Who”, lister gets it right in the video
@@liamcristello2591 I think we are both wrong because I tried to see it’s pronunciation in google translate and it’s Hua.
I love these videos. For me it's a trip down memory lane, as I started playing in March 2008. A lot of the things you mentioned I had completely forgot about until you brought it back up again. Do consider doing Scout, although take all the time you need. I just have a personal bias towards Scout given I played him since 2010 as a main.
The only solution is adding a mini heavy
Really really good video, hope to see more of these really longform history videos of the other classes, though not every class may have as much going on as heavy and spy
Heavy needs to be balanced
not because he is broken, only because he is underpower
From the quality of this video and the previous TF2 character history videos, you're definitely going to become an extremely popular youtuber for sure. Good luck and keep the amazing quality up
It's really interesting to watch the back-and-forth balancing of the Heavy since he's arguably the class most affected by the state of the game. I do think that makes it difficult to introduce new weapons to his playstyles which are already pretty niche. Still, I think it would be interesting if Valve introduced some other viable playstyle compared to needing a medic 24/7 or being a quick-switch in comp. I genuinely wouldn't know how to balance a new minigun but for secondaries, something like a new shotgun that ramped-up in damage and/or speed if you landed shots could require more skill to use while giving enemies some extra time to react compared to jump-revs which are annoying enough to face, especially with the heavy's movement tools like the GRU as you mentioned in the video. It would still reward your tracking skills which a good Heavy needs, and this could open up alternatives for miniguns that are more supportive, either for yourself or your team to make up for the lack of a portable medkit. It could also mean the creation of a primary more mobility-based (more so than the Tomislav) that needs to be paired with the shotgun to be properly useful. Definitely not a dev but there's such a weird line in balancing this class and you did an awesome job showcasing that. Looking forward to the future videos :)
The classic minigun viewmodel... I miss it so much...
Pyro wins vote: gets nerfed, heavy gets buffed
Its so funny that the spy at 20:10 litterly died that his corpse was a literary on the ground
first
Darn
Heavy gaming
sex
I've been waiting for this video to come out, Heavy had such an interesting development over other characters.
Amazing video.
despicable gru 2
3:05 All of these sound like they remain true to this day, though.
This series will be as good as how it feels series. keep up the work my man. love it
(please make the other classes)
10:23 the perfectly cut crit.
Truly an underated and amazing done video. Amazing work, you deserve more for making such well edited and fun videos
i‘ve never played or watched anything about tf2 but this kept me watching for almost 2 hours
1:13 Love the Team Fabulous 2 reference
Awesome video, your channel deserves A LOT more subscribers. You earned my subscription!
If you make one of these for every class, i pray for you, because that is a LOT of time spent on research, script writing, voice-over, and holy hell the editing. I am honestly surprised you managed to get something with this quality out just 6 months after the first one.
I was half-asleep and didn't notice that the video was one hour and 40 minutes long.
I started watching it with the presupposition that it's a 10-20 minute video, but ended up watching the entire thing and only after finishing it and seeing that it's dark outside did I realize that I was captivated all throughout the long runtime and didn't even notice it.
The heat maker is my favorite mini gun. Once I killed a sneaky spy because I used a teleporter while reved up.
In my opinion as someone with decent hours on spy the flames wont help if your fighting you wont hear the hit sound (if you have one) because if your fighting the other team you will assume the hit sound came from them