Sunless Sea, and the inherent absurdity of the Lovecraft mythos.
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- Опубликовано: 20 май 2023
- My name is Thane Bishop, and I need to talk about Sunless Sea.
More specifically, I need to talk about the interesting way Sunless Sea, seems to be using the tones, themes, and ideas that have been built from and upon HP Lovecraft's original writings and ideologies.
This video was made with;
Financial Contribution from my Key Funders: Joshua Loewen, TheMustard Menace, and Wabbajacked.
With additional contribution from my Associate Funders: Frosty and WyBob.
They're doing good work over there, so consider lending them a hand: / thanebishop
Artwork from:
Sevenics: www.deviantart.com/sevenics/g...
Stu_DTS: www.pixiv.net/en/users/221183...
Titlecard and Thumbnail Elements from:
www.vecteezy.com/video/211890...
www.vecteezy.com/video/162522...
And Music from the Sunless Sea and Sunless Skies OST:
Sunless Sea - Opening Screen
Sunless Sea - Wolfstack Lights
Sunless Sea - Sunless Sea
Sunless Sea - Undulata
Sunless Skies - Albion London Lights
(All Songs in order of appearance) 
Развлечения
You really had me with the stuff about the Sunless Sea, you made it sound fun
And then your just like "Um, did you know, that like, Lovecraft was racist?" and then spent the next 20 odd minutes acting like it was obscure knowledge and not a thing anyone even mildly interested gets viciously and repeatedly beaten over the head about, like we're supposed to care about the ideological positions of a corpse, as if should we spend too much time enjoying his work or work derived from it, we'll be infected by his "eldritch truth" or some such nonsense
You said it yourself in the video, the man was so neuroticly paranoid that upon learning about air conditioning he wrote a story about it being used to keep a zombie in good condition. Thats not the behaviour of a man with an actual serious ideology, its the view point of someone so paranoid by the sight of anything more foreign than his own shadow that he'd sleep with a nightlight as an adult
Yeah, absurdly pitiful
Ignoring the fact that from the title, thumbnail, and first second of the video you should have been aware that Sunless Sea would not be the only thing discussed, you're right. I do go pretty hard on driving home who Lovecraft was, what his beliefs were, and how they influenced his works and the genre built on those foundations. Looking back almost a year later, I recognize now that there are elements that could have been condensed; that's one of the benefits of getting better at something, but I don't think I've had reduced it by much. I firmly believe in the message of this video, which is not that you cannot enjoy Lovecraft's work, or the Cosmic Horror genre, but rather, you should be aware of the themes and ideals that make up the genre.
There's a guy named Brian David Gilbert who used to do videos for Polygon, and in one of those videos he told a story about a junior high stage performance of Beauty and The Beast he was in. Some issue happened back stage so he and another child were doing some improv style stuff to keep the audience entertained, and one of the jokes he told ended with a punchline in the vibe of, 'I slept over at their place, but we didn't do much sleeping.' To Brian, he told a joke about staying up all night playing Halo. To the parents, grandparents, and general adults of the audience, they'd just watched a 14 year old tell a joke about how much he was fucking, which wasn't really the right vibe for the time and place.
Because Brian didn't understand what the actual theme of the joke was, or how the joke might be interpreted, he used it incorrectly, in an inappropriate setting.
Lovecraft's work was deeply inspired by his own bigoty, ignorance, and hate. Understanding that isn't about avoiding some infection of eldritch truth, it's about making sure we use those themes correctly, in appropriate places, when we use them. When Sunless Sea undercuts the horror of the deep dark with a sense of absurdity, it's about recognizing in some way that the basis of these themes, and the man who founded them, were equally absurd.
I aint reading allat, serpent 🧌
@@BigBrotherBrody Well its a good thing your not the intended audience, isn't it
Now shove off, you nosy prat
@@BigBrotherBrodyresponds to yapping allegations by yapping
Death is weird in Fallen London. You, as a zee captain, permanently die because the black lady or drownie king claims you. Those who die on land, outside of very specific circumstances, come back after a short boat trip down the stolen river so pretty much everyone from the fall is still there
i love the "i think there's cool things on the horizon" and then putting your patrons on the literal horizon
"Cancer cells don't mean to become cancer" Fuck, that's therapeutic for me.
Nonetheless, the poor things are still cancer. Their intent irrelevant in the face of their effect.
The idea of separating the art from the artist isn't supposed to imply that you refuse to acknowledge that life influences art. It's meant to say that you are able to enjoy art without allowing the artist's beliefs which are incongruous to yours from stopping your enjoyment of said art. An angle I often give is when people try to say my enjoyment of Wagner is a dogwhistle. My reply is that the major scale is not inherently superior to the minor scale. I then go back to listenin' to everything from Peste Noire to Penderecki, Mars Volta to Moondog, and not giving a flyin' f- at a rollin' donut about whether I agree w/ their Weltanschauung or spirituality. I just care whether it resulted in art which I enjoy.
Then again, I can enjoy art which fundamentally disagrees with my beliefs as an expression of someone else's. Art is there to make people feel, so I'd rather see something which makes me feel sick than see something which makes me feel nothing at all. YMMV.
Maybe it was coincidence, maybe people didn't know, maybe any of those possibilities you already mentioned were at play, but Lovecraft's art WAS separated from him. With every derivation, every borrowing, every nod, every reference, Lovecraftian horror became MORE than Lovecraft. His art outgrew him in the hands of the future generations of creatives that adopted it. It's almost exactly as you said. Cancer cells don't mean to become cancer, but they need to be removed anyway. The rough concepts and ideas behind his fiction were a healthy body. His hateful and prejudiced flavorings and specific tellings were the cancer.
Maybe we can't separate Lovecraft from his own personal works, but we most certainly can, and DID remove him from his art.
But that's just my own thoughts on it.
I’m not sure if you already have, but if you haven’t, I’d highly recommend hbomberguy’s video on adapting lovecraft in the 21st century. it engages with similar difficult questions brought up in your essay (questions worth asking!) in a really poignant way that i feel cuts to the heart of why cosmic horror as a genre has endured despite of how despicable lovecraft was as a person and how his work so often served evil purposes.
since i cant speak on hbomb’s behalf though, i’ll try to supply my own answer. as a closeted kid, i felt very alone and victimized by an uncaring universe, and lovecraft’s writing felt familiar in a peculiar way. to borrow from hbomb real quick, lovecraft’s work at its ‘best’ is when it doesn’t express the horror of the unknown or the vast, but rather when it grapples with feelings of *being* an outsider, of being in a strange and uncaring world, and as someone who grew up closeted and has matured into her own person, i related quite a lot to that. i had to have my own journey about lovecraft the man and how his writing serves evil purposes, and i definitely agree that we need to understand the original context, but i think there’s wheat to be separated from chaff with respect to cosmic horror as a genre which creators like the fallen london folks and others writing in the genre see. just as its important to remember lovecraft wrote in the service of evil, illogical ideas, that his work also touched on feelings and emotions familiar to a lot of people who the man himself would have despised. it’s an uncomfortable paradox to live with, but its one that a lot of beautiful and meaningful works have sprung from. for better or worse, lovecraft is foundational to a lot of horror media, and i think those of us who write or create in the genres that draw inspiration from his work need to be especially conscious of both their intentions with it and the consequences of doing so, but those that do can create some wonderful things.
anywho, i loved this video and i also really loved your video about cyberpunk and loving a world that hates you. keep up the good work, looking forward to seeing what comes next
I really appreciate you leaving your own sort of essay here, these are genuinely my favorite comments to see. Thank you for your support across multiple videos, that really means a lot to me.
To this day, my favourite horror film is still the original Alien, and my favourite horror game is Bloodborne. Both are cosmic horror tales that explores various themes relating to women and the violences inflicted upon them by men and patriarchal systems; domestic abuse, rape, childbirth, menstruation, you name it. As someone who's personally suffered a lot because of men and being sociolised as a man, same as most of my close friends, those are all very important themes to me, and I can't think of many non-cosmic horror works that explore them as well as Alien or Bloodborne. And most of those other ones are also horror games anyway, what a surprise
Though another thing that even I am a little surprised to say I relate to is Lovecraft himself, specifically at the end of his life. Very few people know it, but he actually had an epiphany one year before his death, and wrote to one of his gay best friends to tell him he now realised how foolish he'd been his whole life about everything, from discriminating against pretty much everyone else to being afraid of all knowledge and progress. He didn't get to do much to offset the bad things he'd done throughout his life, what with only dying one year later, but as someone who's done a lot of evil in my life, and struggled with guilt and remorse for a very long time, and had multiple redemption arcs of sorts, I can't help but appreciate that he at least tried to be better at the end. He may not have succeeded, but he genuinely tried, something that very few people actually do nowadays, whether they're that they've been terrible but don't put in the effort to change or are just lying through their teeth and don't think at all that they did any wrong. So yeah. At least Lovecraft tried. And I commend that
This is going to be waaaayyy too late, but this (and a recent writing challenge on identifying themes) put into perspective for me how much one of my longform (still unpublished, much to my partner's dismay) fictions is an exploration of my own fear of being other, but at the same time, not, of being asexual but sex positive. It's a weird place to balance and the weird vampiric lore that I built up in that fiction helped me to explore it in a safe place. Idk but your comment helped me cement something that I didn't realize I was putting into words already and I wanted to thank you for that realization ^^;
Holy crap that was probably the most engrossing video essay I’ve watched. That was some Jacob Geller level stuff
Honestly Jacob is a huge inspiration of mine; the comparison is a huge lift for me, thank you.
No joke dude. I love Jacob Geller, and this was so damn close, but with the bishop style
@@ThaneBishop that got me to subscribe so fast, I love his stuff so much
ngl wanted to hear more about the game
I don't think it's appropriate to ask whether or not it is "okay" to enjoy something. Enjoyment isn't something we choose: it is something that happens to us. We may be conscious of its causes and effects, and I think a willingness to examine those things is the very best we can do in this beautiful, ugly, absurd world. Nice video.
After realising what Shadows over Innsmouth is actually about, the ending becomes so funny. Because the great horror is basically a racist guy finding out he's mixed race
So what I'm hearing is that Sucker For Love is the perfect example of using Lovecraft's work while countering his ideas of racial purity
Once again hentai proves to be the ultimate artform
I think the hate that defined hp doesn't matter due to the fact that the fear of the unknown is universal and so it's sort of a baby with the bath water type of thing. We can acknowledge that hp was a shitter without casting aside his creation. The brightest lights have the darkest shadows.
He wasn't a shitter; he was honest about humanity's instinctive prejudice and accurately denounced the cancer of multiculturalism, migration, and societal pluralism.
@@mrbigglezworth42
As someone who lives in the city and observes the multiethnic, multireligious, migrant-fueled multiculturalism that Lovecraft saw in New York, I can personally attest that he wasn't wrong. Furthermore, history and psychology demonstrate that humans have innane tribal preferences. We generally prefer being around those who resemble us and who we recognize as our family, clan, tribe, race, nationality, etc. Today that's called "racism" by people who deny their instincts and H.P. Lovecraft just felt it more strongly than most. _THAT_ tendency was _NOT_ mental disorder, any more than you liking food and water. He was disturbed in other ways but, his prejudice was natural though, perhaps exaggerated by other conditions.
@@Mr.Ambrose_Dyer_Armitage_Esq.I don't really know why you are even bothering here; this channel isn't exactly subtle with its political tilt.
@@papapalps2415
Because I choose to; keeling over and giving up when faced with a disagreeable social consensus is the habit of females and eunuchs.
@@papapalps2415
Would you rather I just keel over and submit like a war bride?
As a fan of this kind of content, I'm really rooting for you!
I woke up at 5 30 to the dark morning, even though ı have no reason to and ı saw this video. I am really afraid of the dark and really love lovecraftian horror so thanks for this great content
Always happy to be helpful!
"Sunless Sea is kind of a game about being the only person in the office on the 18th floor who isn't a clown."
Man, I love words sometimes. Language is a gift
Okay I adore the Fallen London universe and its games, as well as lovecraftian horror. Also I love video essays. This is my video it was made for me.
Plus, the line "and it basically went downhill from there" describes Lovecraft's life SO WELL. In general, I am of the same opinion as you are. But also, I feel like many ideas have been carried so far and reinvented so much, that they have adressed the harm that these ideas carried but don't cause it anymore. I am happy that Sunless Sea and other interpretations exist. The absurd, the strange and the beauty of it all speaks to me.
I would almost argue that Fallen London and its accompanying video games are not actually Lovecraftian. They share a similar aesthetic, but it's entirely surface level. The core of Lovecraft is that fear of the unknown. Fallen London doesnt fear the unknown, it accepts it on its face and embraces it.
Ah, yes, Sunless sea. one of the most underrated games ever created.
"Is there a sea more sunless?"
This is fantastic work! Kudos.
This is the first video of yours I've come across, this is truly exceptional work. Your note about taking an anthropology class stood out to me among the wider focus of this essay, I'm an anthropology student myself and am truly in love with the field and believe it applies to every other field of study on the planet. Studying anthropology is hard, getting yourself to connect to the theoretical base can be extremely difficult. My best advice is to find an ethnography on a particular culture you find interesting and read it through- anthropology is the study of humanity, reading the framework won't really get you anywhere meaningful by itself, but understanding the structure of an ethnography will teach you what you really need to know.
I'm heading out the door to work now, so I don't have time to leave as in-depth of a comment as I'd like, but I want to say that your videos are just so so good. I watched your Cyberpunk video a couple weeks back when I was starting to get into it and fell in love with your ideas, delivery, and discussion. When I can afford it, I'll gladly support you on Patreon; for now, thank you for doing what you do.
Just watching and commenting with support already means so much to me, thank you!
I am honestly shocked at how small your channel is. The production value, the writing, presentation, and editing are top notch!!! You earned a new fan today!!
Really insightful look into Lovecraft and the Lovecraftian genre. Wonderful stuff.
EDIT: Now grow a big ole mustache and shoot Jacob Geller a DM about wanting to work with him. I think you're styles suit one another perfectly.
I really appreciate all of that! I was kind of anxious for this this video in particular because of the history and themes discussed, and it feels really rewarding to hear that people like it. Jacob is a huge inspiration though; I'll start working on the mustache and we'll see what happens at 10k subs maybe
Thank you for your work.
Just found your channel and loving all of your videos so far!
hey, I'm just here for boats
Edit: But I think the Death of the Author is *very* relevant to the Lovecraft mythos. His personal views and his hate is not the core of the genre, and it very clearly isn't part of later "lovecraftian" works.
I'll have to say, yes the views of the author are separable from the actual media, sometimes people are unaware and contradict themselves in their own stories, the notion just because Lovecraft was racist and this his stories are, it's a question about optics, how you interpret the actual work, imagine I just put a little red dot in a white canvas and said is "in reverence to indigenous people and acknowledging their extermination by the whites", it's still just a red dot.... Yes Lovecraft had a more "concrete" work, but the same still applies, the universe and things that are in it don't mean shit, the beholder gives them meaning
The first time I encountered this game was thanks to the departed Totalbiscuit and (I think) his WTF is series. I loved hearing your take on the game and the Lovecraft part of the video was enjoyable to listen to as well, even with the subject matter.
Came for cyberpunk and stayed for a game I’ve never heard from before. Cheers to you for making very engaging content.
That's the goal! Thanks for giving some of my other work some love!
I think something often overlooked in discussion about Lovecraft is that he was a prolific communicator with other writers. He had peers and correspondents like Robert Bloch and Robert E. Howard. These are people who were contributing to the Mythos and the genre. For better and worse people around him found something in his stories and were inspired by them to write stories they would share with him. He had his own set of inspirations arguably devoid of racial superiority (unless there's something about The Raven that I don't know) that informed his stories too. We often talk about him like he was a sheltered hermit who lived and died scared and alone. In some ways he was, in some ways he wasn't.
None of this diminishes his flaws, but I do think it's part of the story that should be recognized.
Edit: Well, turns out not so much the Raven, though apparently there are arguments for Poe. Reading his own chronicles of his inspirations, you can see where his racism colors his perspective of various histories and traditions. He is a horribly complicated man, being terrified of the outer world yet frequently travelling up and down New England, racist in traditional ways and in putting other races on a pedestal, highly influential yet he felt he was in the shadow of his inspirations, reactionary most his life but radicalized economically left by the Great Depression. A very complicated subject with no easy answer.
On another note, I think one of the most interesting things in the genre is walking into a town and feeling like everyone there is entirely alien to you and you are confused. The Sunless series does this incredibly well all over the place, you walk into a town and you feel astonished at arcane rituals and practices, you go into an island and you aren't quite sure if you are walking into a cannibal cult, a madmen's den, a kindly yet creepy old lady, or a bunch of squid-faced people all too human. I think there could be an argument that some of the old racism is in there, the idea that you walk into a civilization and marvel and how strange and violent they are. I think the best versions are those that show you that you don't know everything, you can't just sum these people up. Alternatively, the versions where it turns out that the people had good reasons to be strange. The stories where the arcane rituals do ward off terror, where the sacrifices do keep people happy, where it would be crazier to stay sane than to go mad.
I think the Sunless games really do get that idea. Somewhere that is odd and maybe dangerous but can lead to something truly magical like Visage. There's a whole other rabbit hole of the effects of eldritch beings on human sanity and the morality of treating those beings as an enemy, but I think I've poured my mind out enough. Everything else I'd have to say on whether people should engage with the racism you've already grappled with.
this video could have been two different discussions. Beginning was brilliant, and discussed the actual work in sunless sea. The polemic about contemporary pop politics and the issues of individual racism took me entirely outside of that headspace.
I strongly disagree with some of these points, but enjoyed the video.
Art is separate from the artist, from the moment it's released. They are connected, but at an ever-growing distance.
One extreme example, is the beautiful works of the skilled artist Adolf Hitler. They're amazing, look them up! I have no idea how any teacher with any art knowledge would have denied his talent. If someone was given an unlabeled binder of his art, and used that as inspiration for all their art, it would have zero ties or connections to the holocaust or the Third Reich.
The art does not carry the hate unless directly placed inside. Which, admittedly, many of H.P.Lovecraft's works have, and those have that hate. But, the inspiration then taken from that doesn't carry that hate UNLESS the hate is carried. If I wrote a story carrying his messages of racial purity, then it 100% has the hate in it. But if I wrote a book only carrying the eldritch entities and cosmic horror, unless some of that hate is carried through, then it is completely free of it unless someone deliberately tries to bridge that connection.
Another example would be the cross. It was a tool of torturous execution. But in modern times, it rarely even carries the imagery of the death of Christ unless the death is portrayed on the artform. It is most often seen as a symbol of His love, or a sign that this is connected to the Christianity movement. Wearing a cross necklace in no way endorses or carries the idea of execution those that go against Rome, even when stylized to be accurate to those execution devices. It has been transformed by a major event, and like the swastika, will remain transformed until it is overshadowed by another. You cannot wear a swastika for any original meaning of the symbol while you're in the western world. The original artists, the original ideas behind it, even the ones Hitler chose it to represent, are now completely severed from the art. And possibly unrepairable.
I could write so much about literally every sentence you say in the second part of the video but it is too much work, it just shows how amazing and engaging your content is. Please PLEASE keep making these videos
edit: I even found something to say about the OUTRO. This I will share, because I believe it is kinda cool. I got kind of sad when you started talking about deleting working files. Even though I personally would probably not take the time to do this, but the working files tell a story, about the work flow, and ultimately the person who makes the video. It kind of makes me sad to think that story will be lost forever, even if it doesn't have much value
I absolutely adore Failbetter and their Fallen London stuff. I'm always surprised when I see someone talking about it. This was an excellent look at the stuff around it I think.
This is making me reexamine how I use this genre and its themes, and I'll be better off for it. Tbh I've only read some of Lovecraft's work, though I have LOVED many inspired works like Bloodborne and such. I even was able to find themes and concepts through those inspired works to weave into my fictional world I write about, ones that helped express my own thoughts once I knew how to name them. When I started running this world as a homebrew campaign for irl friends and internet strangers, my perspective opened up a lot in seeing how other people interacted with the world and its struggles, which were of course proxies for my own interests and fears in retrospect. As my life changed within the last few years I can see how my world has changed with it, and the stories from it that capture me most have evolved over time.
One thing I like from Bloodborne is that it says to you as a player "The beast scourge is upon us, do as hunters do and all will become clear." The world is full of people who huddle in place and go mad, and conventional wisdom in that world led them there, sometimes safe but almost always losing a part of themselves. But the game rewards you for seeking to understand things and changing along with the world, revealing darker things to be excised and truths about the world that make it not so senseless anymore. My approach to cosmic horror right now is basically this; despair is a symptom not a cure, so find the darkest parts of the setting you're writing in and bring an ounce of hope to the characters there and watch how they transform. Show stillness and resignation to be the poison it really is, consuming others who will not take a risk. And for those who do take a risk, make their metamorphosis a frightening triumph, not a bleak end.
amazing analysis, i might buy the game when i finish dishonored
Glad to hear that! Getting started sailing the Unterzee can be a doozy, but it's a fun one.
I think that lovecrafts hate being forgotten is almost ironic. His genre based around his crippling fear & hate being used not to prescribe fear but foster understanding and growth through the unknown would probably make him roll in his grave. And thats the best part. While he may be a horrible person, the works have grown out of his control and persective the same way most other fantasies and genres grow. You mention that art as a basis is connected to the identity of the artist and what they stood for, yet i have to disagree that the theme is intrinsically based around that idea. In the same way souls-like became a genre in video games i think lovecraftian horror is a blanket term used for its iconicism, yet doesnt stand directly for his ideals. Its an interesting argument and i really enjoyed the vid! All vids so far have been great since meeting you at the cyberpunk one
He wasn't a horrible person, he was just honest with himself and his nature; we live in an age of horrible people, who invite the death of their communities and cultures in the name of _appearing_ compassionate and being lauded as "open-minded", "forward-thinking", and "egalitarian". Everyone's racist to some degree, but not everyone's willing to be true to themselves and admit their instinct. Howard Philips Lovecraft's only crime was being open about his prejudice in a world of two-faced world...
Hey! I subscribed to your channel around 3 days ago, and I'm sure that in a few months you'll blow up hard!
Keep doing it, its all a matter of time! Amazing video as always
Thank you so much! I really appreciate you sticking around.
true, c'mon algorithm, do your thing dammit
Here to spread the good word of Lovecraftian books Howard would hate: Ballad of Black Tom (a rewriting of the horror of red hood), and the book version of Lovecraft country
I don't believe in separating art from the artist, but thankfully artists can pick each other's work apart, get inspired by what works and throw the rest in the trashcan. Some of the lovecraft-inspired works like Sunless Sea are, imo, frankly better than the man's own writing.
I disagree that we are not able to separate art from artist, I think we accidentally separate art from artist all the time, and to a point it doesn’t really matter. You can sing an whistle along to pumped up kicks without contemplating mass murder. You can play the germans in a world war 2 videogame without believing nazi ideology. Even H.P. Lovecraft’s mythos isn’t centrally about the “monstrous nature of (insert racial group)” it’s about the looming horror of forces so radically far outside the realm of what we understand the their mere existence and our own knowledge of their existence is enough to break our entire world. Something we have no hope of understanding can change our lives in ways we can’t imagine. That existential fear of the unknown is nearly universal. To Lovecraft the unknown was other human cultures and poorly understood technology, but we have our own unknown, and it’s not far fetched to think the unknown is looking back at us, knows our fear.
The world is a big place and we can only see through our own eyes. Art can’t exist without the artist, but neither can it exist without the viewer. And unless you go to a panel and discuss it with them, the author usually can’t or won’t tell you what it meant to them. How much stock should we really put in that? Sure they wrote it, but you read it. You will create a voice, and image of these characters in your mind. Guided by the author, but not molded by them. The story that the book puts in your head is your own version. That’s what makes these discussions so fascinating.
Been binging your content lately, loved your dishonored and ODST videos, keep up the great work.
Visage sounds nice
"As I did research, it was a rare thing for anyone to talk about the content of Howards character. Maybe they didn't know." I think it's the opposite. It's such common knowledge these days that it's almost not worth mentioning. If you wanted to use McDonalds's as a metaphor and tried to explain it's characteristics to a stranger: cheap food, low wages, names their product Mc-Whatev- stop. They'd stop you mid-sentence. Everyone knows what McDonald's is, simply saying "McDonalds" in your metaphor will suffice, lets keep moving. Everyone knows HP was a weird racist. You certainly already knew! He was a weird racist even by the standards of his own time. But the fear of the unknown is something everyone has, and he felt that fear so deeply that he found a wholly unique way to communicate his terror. Writers can leverage Lovecraft's style to communicate that dread and paranoia that we all have hard-wired in our caveman brains, but the object of that fear and how characters react to it is so much more important to the ethics of a work than the character of the man who inspired the style that it eclipses it entirely.
As someone who both loves the works that he created as well as those that followed but diverted from his obvious ignorance, I think it’s important to remember so much of what led to his pseudo-creation of cosmic horror was that ignorance. I deeply doubt he’d have such an acute grasp on the fear of “the other” and the profoundly unfamiliar if he didn’t genuinely believe the practises of those he considered lesser were pathways to profoundly unfamiliar evil. A man who discovers fire only to purposefully burn his neighbours still discovered fire. He should be remembered for that but no one should ever forget or ignore the damage he did. Some people still feel the fallout of that damage.
Not a bad video at all, but I was hoping to get an essay on the absurdity and foibles of the themes of lovecraftian stories, rather than on the absurdity and foilsbles of lovecraft. "Lovecraft was racist and that's bad" is a meaningful take done well here, but it's also a fairly common one. If you wanted to expand on ideas like the fear of the unknown, personal and societal insignificance, the possibility of an immoral god, etc., I'd enjoy it a lot.
Any thoughts on a video about Tears of the kingdom? Seems like an absolutely perfect topic for your style. Keep it up man
Truthfully I'd have to figure out how to record from a Switch, but maybe I can make that a short term goal. Although I do have a spot in an upcoming script to talk about the world of Hyrule in BoTW and ToTK, specifically.
@@ThaneBishop you'll need a capture card made for the switch. Otherwise it's pretty simple, just takes a while to figure out the quirks (assuming you're using OBS, not sure what it's like otherwise). Either way I can't wait to see the result
I come to get a rare video essay on sunless seas. Now its about lovecraft. Now its a race opression admonishment. Huh....
I really appreciate Lovecraft's works and what it all birthed.
Sure, Howard was a difficult man in all senses, wrong and foolish, but he was still human with a fear that we all have to a different degree, he just had it potentially the worst, which also would absolutely explain his views as well, most if not all. And so, I don't personally see his writing as directly channeling his views, even though that what he himself probably thought at the moment, but rather this deep seated fear consuming him and making all about the great fear of unknown, something I personally relate to a lot, as someone who surfers with severe anxiety for most of my life.
I have no ill will towards H.P., he was dead for a hundred years, his followers evolved his works outside of his views, it doesn't really matter anymore, it's never even been truly tied to him, considering how open he was to allowing others build in top of his writing.
I genuinely think that, at this point, it's kind of silly still mulching on the topic of his racist purity views, as it only ever related to him alone, while what he wrote was always more than just that. And I'm saying this as someone who is all for "you gotta know the context in which this was written", but in Howard's case, well, I've already explained my point.
Everything passes, including meanings behind words and works. As some swears and taboo words stopped being such over time, so did the works of Lovecraft. Because times move on, and so do we, changing ourselves and things that we carry with us. And that's nice, and I'm happy that we made Howard's works get detached from his persona, for the most part.
But really, I feel like we all collectively should drop the topic, as the more we speak of it, the more power it retains, and if we manage to completely forget the origin of Lovecraftian Horror and even forget who Howard was, then there will be zero strings attached, cut off for good.
I wouldnt even go far as to say Sunless Sea is entirely lovecraftian, another key is at the beginning of the game for me; Joseph Conrad
Honestly, the clear answer to the Lovecraft racism dillema. Is to write a Lovecraft style story where a horrid inhuman monster invaded the earth, and seeing a true Other welds humanity together, making us all forget racism as a long running mistake, an embarrassing phase in our development as a species.
Also shooting Lovecraftean horrors with shotguns. Can't forget that.
I hear in your voice the same guilt that would take the heart of me. A day may come when men can discuss HP Lovecraft's works on their own merits without touching on his racism, but it is not this day. An hour of clarity and humbleness, when humanity can understand that even flawed men can make great things, and that no thing of beauty was ever made without great evil also in the world, but it is not this day.
On the contrary, I think Lovecraft is a perfect example of separating art from artist. Some of what he created has changed the world and deserves to be loved for all time (clearly not all of it, of course). He, however, rightfully deserves to be hated, despite what he contributed. Separating art from artist to me isn't the same as being able to look at a piece and not think about who created it, but being able to look at a piece, and realize that even though he's was a human sized pile of feces, that doesn't make the painting a canvas sized pile of feces.
That said though, it's weird- I don't actually disagree with anything you say about it.
Amazing Content Homie I hope you get your destined Success on RUclips
That was 37 fucking minutes??????????? This felt like a 6 hour essay bro.
I look forward to the day where videos like this won't be necessary. Absolutely no hate. Binging the hell out of this channel and loving it. But I look forward to a time when knowing the problematic history of a thing isn't necessary because that problematic thing is so culturally irrelevant.
Another core concept of lovecraft horror or cosmic horror, is a scientific mind trying and failing to make sense of that which is considered a god. That is where the horror comes from, more than just the unknown, but that which cant be known, but that which cannot be known, only rejected or accepted.
The tru question is not if it matter the ideology of an artist the true question is how you feel observing the arist work. Art, like philosophy, is immortal because we are and will be always human and we will react to certain thing invariably. What it matter is how the message resonate with us the positive and negative level, the fear and xenophobia of Lovecraft are reflection of pain and incapacity to comprend the world, can be wiew as cautionary but wen, if you loose yorself in the impossible question of can I enjoy something, closing yourself in a dogma a paradox because, eaven if you try the ammusing, twisted beauti, of the nigmare is alredy in you. Carefull to don't loose yourself in one of your own creation, because the fear of the incomprensible is simply itself and don't make distintion.
Hope is undestandable english is not my first lenguage and ususly don write enithing so articolate. Very nice video, tanks.
Whole lot of people missing the point of the "separate the art from the artist" discussion going on.
It's not about whether or not you should enjoy art by bad people (which itself is a ridiculously complicated discussion on its own) but whether you can ever completely divorce the themes of a piece of art from the beliefs of the person(s) who created it.
And the answer is, like it or not, you can't. At least not entirely.
All art is political in the sense that it's made by people who hold certain political beliefs, and those beliefs influence the art.
Even something as basic as "helping people good, murdering people bad" is political since it requires a person to assign value to certain actions and then justify that decision.
This doesn’t just apply to writing, either.
For example, Encyclopaedia Brittanica recently did a series of entries on the Impressionist movement, which is an interesting read. Pertinent to this discussion, however, is where they discuss the reason why the movement sprung up in the first place and why they chose to depict certain scenes in the way they did.
It wasn't just because they thought it would look pretty.
Bottom line, it's definitely possible to appreciate/enjoy art by people who held beliefs we disagree with or even find repugnant, but at the end of the day those same beliefs influenced the art in some form and it's up to us to decide how that affects the way we interact with the art.
It's Dutch, and it is zee. Yes with the "Z".
I personally don't know why there is such a big fuss about the artwork and the influence of its author. There is a rather reliable way of finding out whether a piece of art (or a genre in that matter) is contaminated by shallow ideology or the author's beliefs: Just look at the community consuming the art.
In my experience, people are rather good at sniffing BS, and will on their own extract and transform an art piece into something new. This happened with the Lovecraftian horror. People liked the cosmic horror, and took from the author what was really valuable, and over time the Lovecraftian horror manifested without the original author's philosophy.
Therefore I conclude that the cosmic (Lovecraftian) genre is pure and divorced from the horrible person that created it.
It is always the same with art. Once it is out in the public, it doesn't belong to the artist anymore, it belongs to everyone, and everyone can take part in shaping it.
26:06 ah say gex in its purest form
Art *is* separate from the artist, actually.
Late to the party, but I just wanted to say I loved this video, and this is the pinnacle of what Video Essays can be. You have true insight into something, and the ability to express those insights succinctly and poignantly. Its a rare talent in a sea of videos which ramble for the sake of run time and say nothing at all.
I don't think it's fair to compare HPL to a "normal" racist. "People" like the KKK hate minorities because they see themselves as superior and others as a threat to their power. Lovecraft hated anyone not just like him for the same reason a wild animal hates human contact, or like an arachnophobe hates spiders. Yes he absolutely held some morally and objectively atrocious views, but I think it's more likely they were the easiest, most publicly agreeable (for the time) way for him to express his panphobia, and I think it's very reductive to just call him a white supremacist.
Also, the art _can_ be separated from the artist, 100% unequivocally yes. If you're incapable of that, you're shutting yourself off from the vast majority of human creation.
I thought this was a remarkably well put together, and interesting video essay, about a game, and a genre I both love. I do however, have some thoughts to add of my own. I disagree on our inability to separate art from the artist. We can’t deny the inevitable connection between the emotions and perspectives of the artist and the work he creates. But I do not think this means we have to share in, be influenced by or even to know these factors in the creation of the art. What personal values we ascribe to art is often much more important, you’ll know this if you’ve ever listened to a particular song or read a particular book during a particular period of your life. Just like the art can shape you, you shape your perception of it and what it means to you separated from its creation and its creator. It’s important to note that not all art is created equal in this sense, the works of HP Lovecraft contain these ideas and ideals of its writer much more explicitly than many others do. But I think that simply providing this as a blanket statement would be a mistake and puts us at risk of ascribing values to other people we think to see in their art that may not have been there to begin with. I recognise this is a minor point in a 37 minute long video and maybe even a little self-indulgent, but I do think this is important, to me at least. I hope anyone who read this has a great day.
Fully explaining this idea would be ... well, beyond the scope of this comment. But as a college literature instructor, I feel compelled to tell you that you seem to have fundamentally misunderstood the idea of "death of the author." This misunderstanding, as well as your assumption that all work (and derivations of that work) inherently contain and convey the ideology of the creator, really undermines your ideas in this video. Work can align with, complicate, explore, ignore, or contradict the ideology of the creator--and any blanket assumption of universality here hinges on a huge intellectual leap.
Given that your thinking and your work are so consistently excellent, I'm just a bit saddened by some of the flawed understanding and reasoning in this particular video. If you want to discuss the actual ideas of "death of the author" and how fiction shapes individual and cultural beliefs, let me know. It's kind of the core of what I teach.
I disagree, at the moment a author dies the art hasn´t very much to do with him anymore. That Lovecraft a racist was is a far as I know very well known. I never met a person who didn´t knew when we talked about Lovecraftian Horror. But I would add, that I also read his work and I enjoyed most of it. Shure "He" or "The street" is some of the worst literature ever printed. But if he was just a white supremacist at the start of the 20th century than his work wouldn´t have been this influential.
He wrote masterpieces tokens of literature I can read at any given day and enjoy it. "The Colour from out of space" is one of the greatest works ever written in Science Fiction or Horror or Fantasy. But that´s the point. I don´t say Lovecraft was the greatest author ever. I say some of his works are great.
Now a small side trip. I´m from Germany and I don´t have to explain to you that we have a problematic history. But I´ll be frank if you can´t seperate the art from the author (at least after his death), than you have to destroy most of Germanys Literature, Art and even Philosophy. All of the great German philosophers were racists some more some less. Marx, Hegel, Kant you name it. Kant is probably one of the most important authors on ethics but on the other side held he lectures about Racial differences. One of our greatest musicians Wagner was extremly antisemetic. And let´s not start on German Writers...
And what do we do with that? We acknowledge their wrongdoings, we condem their beliefs. But we still enjoy their art. Because humans are dated beings but art is immortal. Honestly it´s not like we have much of choice in that regard if we wouldn´t use any art written by vocal racists there wouldn´t be much culture pre 1968 left. (Yes the war ended 1945 but the post war German Culture was still very racist and very antisemetic)
So we do our best with that: We enjoy the art and we are reflecting upon what this means. I think that´s the difference. I personaly don´t mind if someone enjoys Lovecrafts works as long as he reflects it but I really much think that creating a lovecraft themed movie without reflecting about what it means to use this author is something I really can´t support.
Its good to be thoughtful about the creative sides of our human lives, but it feels genuinely over-anxious to a very 'always online' degree to get so worried about 'supporting' the personal views of an author who's been dead for almost a century. He didnt start any organisations or political parties, there are genuinely no ways to encourage that racism just by reading the works or being inspired by it.
Its not like a living author like Rowing who actively and publicly funds abusive gay conversion camps with the money she gets every time sometime pays for her work
Tbh themes, aesthetics and ideas can be frustratingly complex things, mostly because they are abstract concepts which are defined by the way any given person subjectively understands them. We give things meaning.
Hence I think it is just as possible to see Lovecraftian themes as inherently linked to racism, as it is to completely divorce them from any supremacist thought.
While lovecraft himself used his themes with the intent to be racist, he does not own them and we shouldn’t allow him to do so. Ideas of fear of the unknown, cosmic indifference and even weird fish-monsters have been present way before lovecraft (particularly in mythology; if you look at the Odyssee or Virgil‘s Aeneid you find a large amount of these themes present) and we shouldn’t stop ourselves from using them because of him. Absurd science fiction writing also existed way before him as well (see Lucian of Samosata).
Also the way lovecraftian media and art looks aesthetically can be looked at quite separately from his work too. Most of his monsters are quite „indescribable“, so any depiction of them is necessarily a subjective departure. The green blue tint of most Lovecraftian art is not a given in his books.
If you look at post world war 2 art and poetry as well, you find a lot of abstract, industrial, post human horror which lovecraft had no influence on whatsoever, but which strike a very similar note, but obviously to achieve the polar opposite effect: this art was made victims of racist ideology.
Sure, lovecraft did unique things with his themes and ideas, and he has played a big role in defining them in the 21st century. but honestly, we shouldn’t let these universal ideas and aesthetics be tainted because one very broken person used them with malicious intent.
I love the vid up till the point of of saying art can't be separated from its artist, to seemingly any degree outside of spin offs and its so infuriating, why should I submit my mind, interpretation ect of a piece of art to its creator, it's fine to see it from its creators perspective however they have no right to my perception or reality and if I decide to find meaning in art that is not the creators intention then I will without doubt separate the art from the creator, a theft of the spiritual sense I suppose, I just don't understand how thane can submit his will and allow it to be corroded by a color not his own, I say rip out that color if you don't like it don't allow it to take away something you enjoy for no reason, it's not like having this negative tinge to your vision with regards to this art accomplishes anything but thwarting your enjoyment of the medium. Mmm well got that out I love the vids good work sorry for rambling lol
Man, I like your videos, but this is my least favorite. I’ve been watching videos talking about lovecraft for a long time, and I’m kinda just fed up with hit jobs like these. You didn’t even mention Lovecraft’s actual literary influences apart from Poe, like Blackwood or James or Dunsany or Burroughs or Chambers. Contrary to popular belief, he was inspired by more than just Poe and his own racism. You also didn’t mention that fact that he had diverse friend group, which would have helped you in underlining how absurd his beliefs were when he had plenty of friends that fit outside his narrow view of people.
Lovecraft wasn’t this 1 dimensional racist, he was complicated person in all regards, and essays like this just reduce him to the worst aspect of his character. It’d honestly be better if he was forgotten entirely, instead of being dragged out of his grave to be spit on, over and over again, ad infinitum.
Yeah, I've been binging his content recently and I enjoy most of it, but I agree with pretty much all of what you said here.
It feels like the bare minimum of research was done to decide that, "yeah Lovecraft was racist as hell." and then the script writing started. And I honestly feel like Sunless Sea is a terrible game to use for an exploration of Lovecraft's themes because of how dedicated the game is to making fun of them. It's like watching Spaceballs to critique George Lucas.
24:20 agreed, there are too many peopl who think simply ignoring the opinions of the artist will solve anything
I didn't know most of that about Lovecraft, and you condensed it nicely. Nonetheless, I think less of this video because you excoriate Lovecraft and refuse to follow the thread to its conclusion. Either people will make pale imitation after pale imitation until any of the original meaning and power is lost, or the wicked seed of a grieving boy's cthonic delusions will continue to propagate.
Tldr: in the words of a great mind, ya'll muthafuggas need Jesus.
Always nice to see you on a video. This is a difficult one, because I think we might just have different ideas about what the conclusion of Lovecraft and his ideology looks like. While some works might fall into the honest category of pale imitation, or spreading and justifying the wretchedness of the worst parts of Lovecraft, I think there's a valuable middle solution that more than a handful of stories fall in to, that being understanding the themes, and answering them appropriately. Obviously I think Sunless Sea falls into that category, but I would also place Darkest Dungeon in there, as well.
Darkest Dungeon is a game that does an incredible job tying in elements of cosmic horror, the crippling fear of the unknown, and the feeling of dread in a world that seeks to destroy you, but it answers those themes by telling us that the only thing to do with those themes is to drive them out, destroy them entirely. We do not join the horror, as the narrator does in 'Shadow Over Innsmouth', nor do we fall prey to it, as does the doctor in 'Cool Air.' Instead, our job can only be regarded as complete once we have scoured the land of it.
I do not think these stories are pale imitations, nor do I think that they're propagations of the Lovecraft's ideology. Rather, I feel like they live in the middle ground; understanding the themes, and refusing to bow to them.
Regardless, thank you for your continued support. I'm sorry to hear this one didn't feel complete for you, but I hope you'll enjoy the next one.
@@ThaneBishop Not a problem. I'd say the vanilla ending to Darkest Dungeon tends to reinforce the hopelessness rather than fortify the mind against it, but that's my reaction. Anyways, always a fan of your work.
Could you expound on your last statement? _"Either people will make pale imitation after pale imitation until any of the original meaning and power is lost, or the wicked seed of a grieving boy's cthonic delusions will continue to propagate."?_ A more intuitive man might instantly divine the meaning thereof but, I am not he yet remain intrigued. Thank you.
„That’s crazy“
*goes back to playing bloodborne*
I’m not sure I agree with some of what you said. I can enjoy an are even if it came from and evil person. Because deep down every has fundamental fears and evils. Love craft my fear “impure” blood lines but if I fear impure food ( food with poison, parasites, or disease) then isn’t that similar fears. If I fear the basement because there might be spiders and someone else fears the basement because of snakes. Isn’t that the same. You can take inspiration from bad people be do good with it. And the opposite is always true.
The main thing about separating art from the artist is that it can’t be done if the artist is still supported by you consuming their art
Lovecraftian horror can be consumed without supporting the ideals because the man holding those ideals won’t get money or recognition or power from people using or consuming his works
The same can not be said about JK Rowling and Harry Potter, because the works being spread and consumed directly give her wealth, recognition and in turn, power
The harmful ideals she holds and spreads are funded by people who may not support the ideals, but by consuming her art, they support her
No ethical consumption under capitalism also doesn’t apply to art, as it is more aimed towards the inherent pain caused by capitalistic production, and most people can’t choose products based on ethics, being forced to choose products on price first and foremost
Given the chance, most people would choose products made in accordance with human rights and fair compensation, but that’s not always an (affordable) option sadly
This just in - local man discovers that the world is complicated and disagrees with the only coping mechanism others have for dealing with it lmao. If I couldn't consume art without worrying about the creator's terrible beliefs, I doubt I could consume art *at all.* You *must* create some level of separation between art and artist, or you will find that the deeper you look the less enjoyment you find in any media.
"Saying an artpiece can be removed from the artist who created it is an inherent fallacy"
I agree!
BUT i think it's inevitable that viewers to art simply don't have enough in common with the artist to see the full artpiece, and produce a similar but thematically different artpiece in their mind.
Once a feeling is far removed enough, it ceases to be the original piece, but is nevertheless still an experience from it. One that hasn't been realized as its own project yet - if it ever does.
If you want an example of such an in-mind misinterpretation of an artpiece turning into its own valid story, look at dark souls.
That's how you seperate art from the artist. You pick out the parts that don't belong to the artist. The parts you made.
Rick james may have been a kidnapping torture fetishist with a fan for doing the r word, but he didn't make the part of "super freak" that defined a fond moment of your life as background music.
That emotional weight was made by you.
This is a interesting take on Lovecraft himself.
However i think the concept of "Cosmic Horror", previously labeled only as "Lovecraftian" has evolved past him.
Yes, H.P.Lovecraft was a horrible person, and his ideologies gave seeds to his writings.
However, as said in video and in counteles other essays, a lot of authors took his concepts and twisted and bent them, changing them into something else.
Personally i don't like Lovecraft books.
But i like modern adaptations that revise the core concept and modernize it into the "Cosmic Horror" concept i see more prevalent nowadays.
One video that, i personally identified myself a lot was HBbomberguy analysis of the genre and how it can be adapted to modern day.
Specially as a queer and being around queer spaces, i see that a lot of us, the queer community pretty much embraced "Lovecraftian Horror" and why the genre is so attractive to so many, specially those whom feel they are "outsiders" of the "normal" society.
So going back on your video about separating the Author from its work, i truly believe that with the correct lens, it can be done while modernizing it, while remembering that yeah, the Author is a piece of shit.
But, one important piece of it, is that the Author cannot still be the one on the wheels, for exemple it's impossible to separate Harry Potter from J.K, while she is still a influential figure using her fame, power and fortune to make Trans lives the worst possible.
That's not even entering the antismetic problems around her.
But maybe in 100 years? Maybe what she wrote will be reviewed by someone and something may be born from those books, with the knowledge of all the problems in it.
Based and author-death pilled
HP Lovecraft more like HP Basedcraft.
blud did NOT watch the video ‼️🗣️
Ooooh, a sunless sea video essay!
God, this game gives me mixed feelings. For better or worse, it's inspired by lovecraft's works and ideas.
On the one hand, it's absurdism is very much a bright light in the chaos that is both this game's setting and our world.
On the other, I can't think it's in any way a more balanced take on Lovecraft's ideas. The racism is still there - the clay men of polythreme an unsubtle take on slavery, in which enslaved brown people are literally dehumanized. The khanate, another continuation of orientalism's permanent rival - a vague distrustful version of 'the east'. The Empire of Hands, a continent far from London populated by ancient indigenous ruins and 'unsocialized primates' personally reminds me far too much of Latin America's impoverished state - combined, of course with an always justified always cruel blockade.
If there's a way to reconcile Lovecraft's themes with progressive ideals, Sunless Sea is presumably the farthest from that, instead replacing Lovecraft's caricatures with modern ones.
I've never really seen fallen London's setting as an allegory for real world social issues. (Eg: with the empire of hands I always viewed the joke to be the admiralty hating them for no stated reason, simply saying "they know what they did". The khanate meanwhile has a very good reason to be annoyed at and distrustful of London: it literally landed on top of and crushed their city during the Fall. Also this is London from the Victorian era, great powers distrust each other and compete in the great game. Take for instance the literal Great Game going on in London, where Europe nations also have spies in London.) That said, something to keep in mind when analyzing it through lens of progressive values is that the game's settings. It's set in the 1800s under Queen Victoria's reign, and doesn't have progressive values everywhere because of that. Though it does most certainly have progressive stuff (eg: sexism being practical non-existent compared to IRL 1899, and gender roles being far, far less strict.)
God, progs are so fucking unbearably pretentiously arrogant.
You had me until you devolved into credentialism.
I'm not gonna lie.
The vast and incomprehensible scale of cosmological objects and the universe compared to our insignificant size - is not scary.
Lmao so many angry people about your condemnation of racism, YOUR inner conflict about IF we can just kill an author. I tend to agree with you, especially with how overtly racist the actual content of lovecrafts work is (his writing, not his themes).
And the people here thinking you can just look past the racism only think that because they’re comfortable doing it in their daily lives as well, not just their media.
No, people look past it because they don't want to drink poison and sit there expecting racists to be hurt by it. The guys dead, and whether we like it not, his writings have contributed permanently to modern pop culture. If you don't like his work thats fine, but others are willing to take whats already there and use it to create works and arts that are free of the ugliness that came from the original creator. That isn't a bad thing, and they aren't bad people for doing so.
I mean fair that you think that. but I can’t help but be pessimistic when I see people disengaging from this video the second it criticizes racism in general. It absolutely plays a part in his writing, and to make sense of that conflict of enjoyment vs thematic content is valid analysis. But some people purely see it as meaningless virtue signalling because they just don’t want to talk about racism, not in their media, not really ever.
was enjoying this until it turned into a rant, oh well