OK, Why I'm Voting Labour (Even If They Hate Me)
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- Опубликовано: 2 дек 2022
- So I get flak from two sides - all part of the job!: from Starmer ultra supporters who are all waaaaa leave our boy alone!!! and lefties baffled at why a socialist could vote for the modern Labour party. So here's my main reasons - and I'd love to know your thoughts so do leave them in the comments!
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@@jobloggs6947 So you must want the tories to remain in power, then!! Are you a closet tory supporter
If you won't vote LAbour then your giving the Tories a tick on the ballot paper the only way to win is to play tactically
Said it all along, get the Tories out first.
@@fredatlas4396 Saying Labour are the same is just pure madness. Tories out.
👍🏽👊🏽 a pragmatic pushback on stopping the country lurching further to the right in all areas. Don’t need to be a Starmer fan just vote for the party with more palatable policies and counter to the tories
This is what happened with New Labour. I was 21 when they got in, and I was naive. I thought they would be more radical, but they PFI stuff and Iraq War really disillusioned me. Socialists will not forget that experience. Nor the way, Corbyn was treated. The problems right now are so big they require root and branch solutions, not a sticking plaster, which is all Starmer has to offer.
We may need some radical reforms, but Labour will not get into power if their manifesto is too far left and frightens the centre electorate.
I think Corbyn appeared too extreme left. (He also did not look like a leader, certainly not charismatic.)
A sticking plaster is still better than tory salt/disease in the wound
@@paulwhite2162 I think that's right, and I have a lot of time for Owen's assessment later in the clip that left wingers will have more purchase over a Labour government than a Tory one. (And frankly, I can't stand another year under a Tory government). And we'll be rid of the shallow tory talent pool that keeps giving us people like Priti Patel and Suella Bravermen and have a few more human cabinet ministers!
I quit when the Witch-hunt started.
@@harrybarrow6222 did you know that the Labour Party is a Democratic Socialist Party?
I don't think I can vote for a Starmer led Labour Party. I voted for Starmer in the leadership election but he lied. We need transformation, not just slightly more competent management. I can't vote again for a Blair/Mandelson agenda.
Actually if you voted him in as leader I think you have somewhat of a responsibility to vote for Labour now so that the Tories don't get in again. Many people simply won't survive another Tory government, the NHS won't survive. We are where we are, vote Labour in and then lobby from the left I say.
@@powderandpaint14 You make a well reasoned point.
@@powderandpaint14 I agree that voting Labour is the pragmatic option. My concern is that we won't survive a Starmer government either.
I do not think that is fair. I think that comparing Blair and Starmer ignores some substantial policy differences, notably the idea of GB Energy (which the party recommitted to recently) and significant tax reform to plug loopholes in the tax system which Blair never touched (such as things like non-domicile tax status) and a broader use of that money to reform public services, along with renationalization of the railways and bus services, are just things that are quite inconsistent with Blair. Politics is about the art of what is possible and making progress and compromise to build consensus (at least if it is working well), not necessarily about what is ideal. I think Starmer is well aware of that, and I think that ultimately that puts him in a better position to govern Britain than many other politicians, even if it makes him a bit tepid at times.
@@heleng7832 I doubt that it would fare any worse. Politics is about what is possible. Even if you might like a policy idea, if it is too far outside the mainstream, it will either never be adopted or cost the party dearly in elections. This is something Starmer is well aware of. I think that is part of why his support in the parliamentary party is as strong as it is right now.
We need proportional representation! After the absolute disaster of the last 12 years I'm more anti-tory than anything else.
Shame that Starmer, in his Sir Saintly Starmer mode, has no interest in PR...
@@dambrooks7578 Labour's going to have to do something especially with Scotland doing it's own thing hopefully they have to do a deal with the liberals before the next Tory government and/or with House of Lords reform.
@@jstelzner unfortunately one of the first things the next government will have to do is renegotiation of the EU bill that helps with continuing any further trade... it makes me worry about why Sir Saintly Starmer has taken such an extreme right-wing attitude, especially involving all things Brexit.
edit:
I couldn't remember the name of it previously, but I was specifically talking about the customs union that needs renegotiation.
@@dambrooks7578 I think Kier is just trying to get more support in order to win the next election. If Labour doesn't win the next election they won't be able to do anything and PR will be the least of our worries when the tories remain in power. If Kier was to speak out against brexit that could backfire and lose more potential votes. Just look at the red wall voters who said they were previously Labour supporters but then voted for the con party because of get brexshit done
@@fredatlas4396 the only reason that the Tories won so passionately in 2019, something not helped by the party working against the leader entirely, even Rachel Reeves only interested in supporting safe labour seats instead of providing support outside of safe seats which, as she celebrated at the last conference meeting, she is happy to see a reduction in party members since Sir Saintly Starmer has taken power and worked on eradication of the left leaning MP's from the Labour party, which seems entirely what Kinnock did in not being elected to power because internal fighting doesn't win elections
"If you like to criticise Starmer so much, why don't you join the Tories?"
Now that's rich coming from the section of the party which spent THE WHOLE EFFIN' Corbyn years lambasting it in the media and sabotaging its electoral efforts...
I agree, now honestly I vote SNP and for many years now however I can say I was torn at the last election up until the day before the election on who to vote for, when talking to my local councillor we discussed this and as she said its a win win situation if you vote SNP because we will support Corbyn and we would have , Stammer I can't vote for because he's just no better than the tories care in Scotland
Honestly, I don't know why Starmer didn't just join the Tories. He seems to hate and despise everything Labour stands for. Why not just join a party that reflects his - xenophobic, anti protest, anti-union, anti-LGBTQ, anti-human rights - values?
Well said Ferdinand
I was about to say the same thing. I remember sitting at home listening to the radio and one after the other labour mp's/members called the radio show to smear him, basically calling him weak, crazy, delusional and a disaster for the country. Now look where we are.
@@firebyrd437 Yet not voting Labour will just get more of this Tory government. Starmer is bad, but claiming that he is the same as the Tories is silly.
as usual you are right Owen, as tony benn said the labour party is not a socialist party its a party with socialists in it in my opinion our job on the left is the same as always to get labour to help the people who need it most and push labour to be as left wing as possible in terms of policy and practice
With the caveat that I'll probably vote Labour for pragmatic reasons - does Labour still have any socialists in it?
Yes!!
Orrrrrrr you could vote for a left wing party.
@@jackcollins7061 thanks jack , never thought about it as deeply as that ;)
Completely agree.
You play the hand you're dealt.
Not voting Labour is as ineffective as not voting Democrat in the US.
The vote for the socialist party then they are a far more viable option
One could not vote for Joe Manchin or Kirsten Sinema though?!
If I choose NOT to vote for a Labour shill, that is effective in not compromising my own honesty and integrity.
My voting for Starmer or any Tory would reduce me to their level, a depth I'm not prepared to contemplate.
@@dolceanstar so do you want the tories to remain in power. And don't you care about all the millions of people here in the UK who have been & are suffering a lot under our tory government since 2010. Perhaps you should try thinking about all those people less fortunate than yourself, spare a thought for those less fortunate than yourself
I've only voted for Labour twice
Mr Corbyn was leader both times.
It's a bit rich for blue Labourites to sabotage a very popular leader,
and for Mandelson to brag he spent every day keeping Mr Corbyn out of No 10,
thus giving us the most toxic and lazy "governance" in UK history
Are we going to have an apology from blue Labour any time soon?
I so appreciate your astute logic as an old 76yr old lefty Labour lady who is not excited about Stramer and his approach. You are a very articulate and clever young man. X
PR voting system = RIP tories!
PR is far from perfect but far better. If we had PR then it would be likely that UKIP would have had quite a few seats but the Tories may not have held the Brexit vote.
You can stick pr voting where the sun doesn't shine. If I vote for a party that's my choice not an alternative party that might benefit from pr votes
@@geoffwright9570 I don't think you understand how PR works Geoff. Under a PR system, you can vote for who you like and your votes will definitely affect the outcome. No more if you live in a safe seat it doesn't really matter who you support, the majority party in that area will win. So you can actually choose the party with the best policies that you like, not the one that you think could win in your area even though there's a smaller party that you like better.
@@geoffwright9570 So mostly you won't have representation in parliament.
PR is long overdue and a necessary reform. It would mean Westminster more accurately reflects the views of the population. May mean a few more Greens, some UKIP types getting elected and fewer SNP MPs.
Nothing will change whilst we keep giving these people support
You can change nothing by not staying involved.
You vote for a local MP at the ballot box, get involved and make sure that your local MP supports what you want.
Well what are you going to do then??? Unless you are going to go out and protest just vote labour ffs. By not voting labour you are literally just enabling conservatism.
@@Powerof7even I'm voting Labour. I like the green party policies, but if I vote green party i will just be helping the tories to win in my constituency
Supporting or not supporting the entrenched system is not where change occurs.
I wonder--do you feel like a vote makes you complicit, or that it's a significant moral act? It's too rigged of a system for either of those to make much sense, isn't it?
There is no meaningful strategy in a vote strike. Therefore it has no moral value, other than being negligent of possible harm (likely to others, but eventually oneself).
Choose the conditions that support others, and pick your battles and battle grounds--that's at least a fragment of a strategy. Not enough, but a fragment is better than negatives.
The real point is we need to do more elsewhere, in any and every way we can. That's what's needed.
That’s why it’s essential to be a member of the party and at the very least bother voting
Is the aim to again make us think Starmer will change when elected? We fell for that with Blair and look where it got us!
Yes but still infinitely better than the previous and current Tory governments.
Calling Starmer stans Waitrose shoppers was actually the best possible insult. It stung because it exposed how utterly distant from the working class they are.
Thankfully i am in Scotland so we have our own fully scottish party to vote for, and let me just add that recently om May 2022 labour did back rooms deals with the tories to run councils, i will say that again, labour in Scotland did back room deals with the tories to stop the SNP running councils in Scotland, that is the utter contempt that labour have for Scotland and its voters, but it also explains why they are dead in Scotland like the tories.
Exactly.
Yes, you are absolutely correct. So glad we don't need to vote for Labour in Scotland: they are hopefully dead and buried for a long time to come.
@@MontyCantsin5 what is ironic and somewhat depressing is how many policy leads in charities and NGOs in Scotland are Scottish Labour members. The ones I am thinking of are both U.K charities with Scottish branches or solely Scottish. How ANY anti-poverty charity based in Scotland can harbour Scottish Labour is beyond me. Pro Brexit and pro union - yet anti-poverty?! It makes zero sense.
Yes we need an English National party too.
@@stephenholmes1036 yep, anything to escape Etonian Westminster rule and localise decisions.
I will not vote Labour after what they have done to people like myself, the mental impact of all this is ridiculous. I have principles which are to help the people who need help the most. Labour do no longer , if they ever did.
I feel like I've not got a better option at the minute, nice to hear your reasons
Thankfully I have the SNP and Scottish Greens to vote for instead of the red Tories
@@colinwishbone4437 you don't have to learn a new set of policies every few years.
Tbe Greens are a middle class party for the middle class.
@@stephenholmes1036 Why do you say this? The Green Party is the only party that have consistently supported workers rights and unions, wealth redistribution, nationalisation, and properly funding public services. And fighting for action on the climate crisis is most important for the poorest in our society as they will bare the brunt of it.
@Calmac MCC completely agree. And even if I wasn't in agreement, Scottish Labour isn't where I'd be wasting my vote.
@@h1pbs964 The RMT doesn't trust you or XR one bit your all middle class people preaching at us not talking too us. We don't need your patronising words of austerity because it's we who will suffer.
JSO ,XR do you think if they were working class people they'd be treated the same at protests?
They affect working class people most because you and the rest of you establishment guardian privately despise us all Brexit and support for mining and farming.
We want jobs not your imposed austerity on the poorest
You literally speak every word my head thinks about politics and Labour right now, keep up the amazing work Owen💪👍
Voting for this Labour Party and then watching it win as a result would send a clear message. That in order to win you have to follow in Starmer’s footsteps. That means more factionalism, more ridding of the left membership, more right wing politics, more lying to the electorate, more election rigging and the list goes on and on.
It’s a bitter pill to swallow as we badly need the Tories out, but this version of Labour winning would be the death knell to any possibility of genuine change in our lifetime. It’ll be blue Tories versus red Tories forever.
Identical to Democrats and Republicans, in which the Democrat voters are extremely let down.
The dutch angle all the way through the video is a very interesting cinematography choice.
He looks great in every angle.
@@jenxsj3902 Owen Jones stan
There will be no real change until we stop voting for the blue, red and yellow Tories. I would happily tolerate 5 more years of the Tories if resulted in Labour moving back to the left. That's why they won't get my vote next time.
This is the only way.
Conservatives just love people like you.
That's shockingly honest and succinct. I'm with you
genuinely one of the worst posts I've ever read and the perfect synopsis of why your kind is better off out of our party - it's all a game to you - you're fine with a tory govt - there are people to whom this is life and death. don't ever come back.
@@pierremartini2229 we'll win without people like that. they're not labour.
I’ve never voted for a centre right party in my life and i’ve resigned/cancelled my membership after 27 years, so i won’t vote for a centre right party now either just because it has a “Labour” name tag. This “Lesser of two evils” voting is short-termism and exactly what the neoliberal duopoly, red & blue, want you to do.
very normal to describe keir starmer, rachel reeves, david lammy and angela rayner as 'evil', hope your day gets better
The lesser of two evils is the only way to vote in a country using FPTP. Within the system, there is no alternative, and the neoliberal duopoly couldn't give a toss whether you choose to effectively abstain from voting by voting for neither (because a vote for any other party is, under late-stage FPTP like we have in England, an effective abstention).
The only answer for ending the two-party dictatorship is radical nonpartisan direct action - but that doesn't mean you should forgo voting to make sure we get the much less objectionable half of that dictatorship in power. Irrespective of whether you vote Labour, you're completely correct about the state of democracy in this country, and you should get in touch with groups who push for electoral reform if you aren't already.
@@sidevans1 Have you ever considered arguing from the point rather than fixating upon the semantics of a well-known and very old idiom that you - as a functioning adult in full grasp of their faculties - should well understand beyond the literal level?
@@sidevans1 Considering what Starmer has done to the left of the party, yes, he is evil.
@@sidevans1 It’s a well known and much used synonym. Now untwist your knickers and go read a book.
Not many people find a political party they totally align with. We vote with whichever comes closest or the one which will block the party we least want
With the STV voting system (a form of proportional representation) you rank the parties in order of preference and leave out the ones you don't like. That's probably one of the things I most like about it.
Which is why things don't change.
You vote for the trash which is better than the trash you already have. Then you find out he’s Trash too and the cycle continues.
You will never get change
In the of FPTP, whicher of the two available parties.
I went over to the SNP because they are more Labour than Labour and more serious about winning elections.
Still feel a bit guilty but, times change.
They’re making a mint to keep themselves in 6 figure jobs. A vote for the SNP is a wasted vote.
Why, no party is perfect but SNP are the only ones that actually care about Scotland. If we finally get independence, you can vote for whomever you like as they won't be controlled by Westminster.
@@Jesus420.69 and I have no idea what Labour will do. They change their mind so often most people just gave up.
No consistency and no long term thinking. Now pro Brexit and anti immigration. That's not my kind of thing.
I wouldn't feel any guilt; Scotland needs to vote for pro-independence parties. At least we have some hope compared to voters in England.
I'd vote SNP for you all. Don't now why they only run in Scotland, they could get more votes (Newcastle)
The SNP exceed all your expectations for the Labour Party
Yep.
Yeah but we're English lol
yeah, health and education are in a great state in scotland.
@@sidevans1 They are in better shape than anywhere else in the UK
@@Mikebloke You are welcome here anytime 👍
The unions were invisable under Blair on until recently when Jeremy was in charge.
I could never accept or believe any policies from Starmer, he has proved himself to be a liar, if he ever reaches government he will just disregard everything he promised
So live under the Tories, who of course have never been known to get their head round the truth
Secret Tory
I think that's harsh tbf. The way I see things is that Starmer said what he had to say at the time to become leader. Once he'd become leader he then started saying the things he has to say to become PM. The fact that those two sets of statements are at odds with each other are simply a reflection of the fact that the leadership vote took place within a party still heavily influenced by Corbyn, but that the election results (especially in Red Wall seats like mine) clearly showed that Corbyn style politics could never win the country - so a Corbyn friendly message to win the party, an anti Corbyn message to win the general election.
@@ianlayton6949 kinda the opposite of Liz Truss. She said what she needed to to win the leadership, then when she became leader, she governed as if she really meant it!
@@ianlayton6949 Or just 'say what will get you elected', which sums up Starmer 100%. Anyone who believes a word he says any more is a fool.
We have a Tory MP, and he’d get voted in if he was dead and rotting.. Labour don’t have a prayer of getting in, here.. will have to vote Liberal to have any chance of shifting him..
If unions withdrew all Labour support from the party they originally created and instead created a new party with a very strong leader, such as Mick Lynch or whoever, I’d vote for it in a heartbeat. It’s time for major change in the neoliberal political landscape - or as the saying goes, “enough is enough”
People have been saying this for a number of decades....yet nothing changes.
I have voted Labour all my life and even used to be a Labour member. But I won't vote for a centre-right party just because they aren't the Tories. My current seat is a Labour stronghold. So maybe Green? But honestly even they aren't great. Genuinely don't have a proper left wing party in England to support
What about the Reform Party? :P
Genuine question from someone who is not in the know. Do you think that the Labour party would improve (Move more to the left) if Angela Raynor was to be made leader ?
@@rorylyons1091 I think so yes, she definitely isn't as married to the status quo like Starmer is. She would definitely be more inspiring as well, plus she was born and raised next to my hometown, so it's great to see someone from such a working class background in leadership
Like Owen says, the REAL issue at the moment is the electoral system. I don't like Starmers stance towards the left of the party. However, there are active members of labour who I would like to support. I considered the green party myself but then asked myself would they be able to remove the Tories in the next general election, in my opinion no they would not. I didn't like Blair either as under his leadership "New Labour" just continued destructive Tory policies. Just ask yourself do you want to remove the Tories from power in the next election and will voting for ANYONE else BUT labour REALISTICALLY deliver that?. The despicable Tories need to be given a black eye AND a bloody nose.
@@MrTzimisces Thanks very much for the prompt reply. I will be voting labour at the next election, but I would be more enthusiastic about it if Angela was in charge. To be honest I don't really need to vote, I live in the safest Labour ward in the country, but it's the principle that counts.
Oh, and I also love your work, Owen. Also read your Guardian articles. You've every right and responsibility to criticise Labour when they deserve it. Labour are far from perfect.
Always preferred the term starmtrooper myself...
Starmerroids is my personal fave.
Irish viewer here. i don't envy you having to make this choice because of your voting system. I get the argument against voting Labour (if they can count on left wing votes because they're the only show in town, why would they ever change for the better? Withholding that vote is the only leverage you have to affect their platform. Voting 3rd party does that in a way that shows that you're an engaged voter who is there to be "won back". UKIP support pressured the Tories do Brexit etc etc)
The tricky part is it feels kind of privileged to be able to take that stance rather than voting for short term harm reduction. I'm not the kind of person who would suffer the most under a Tory government, and those who would mightn't thank me for not voting in their interests, even if Labour should be doing more.
Ultimately this is all academic for me but we get so much UK and US media here that I'm invited to think about FPTP voting more than I'd like. It's a pretty toxic dynamic.
Well said!
Owen, you have made me think more critically about Starmer. Like you, I want Labour to win because the Tories have gone totally rogue and Labour may be able to listen a bit more. I expect his eventual government to become a problem - just a bit less than the Tories as we members MIGHT have some ability to smooth the edges of his "Soft Toryism", voting reform and the economic/political stupidity over Brexit etc. Politics is the art of the possible and that is what I think you are saying by explaining why voting Labour with Starmer as leader still makes sense. I agree for what its worth!
If you vote labour and they win why complain about their policies? Voting Starmer Labour is akin to staying in a abusive relationship and hoping they will change their ways.
@Juanito Doe You have a point, except in your analogy you would have been forced into an arranged marriage due to lack of suitors. Despite the arranged nature, your groom once was handsome, devoted and would do almost anything to please you. Some time later he has become lazy and complacent. You want to leave but you stay because for the children. Not always easy to make some choices in our rigged political system. What would make a difference would be annual parliaments and instant sacking of all MPs if they fail to deliver on any manifesto pledge, or are proven to be implicated in criminal behaviour, including lobbying, sleaze, corruption or criminal offences.
In an election, a lot of people vote not necessarily FOR a party, but AGAINST what they perceive as a greater threat or evil. Elections in countries that don't have PR offer a very limited choice to voters to actually vote FOR what they really want, and make their vote count. How many people do you think agree with EVERYTHING that a political stands for?
If you accept that your ultimate objective lies outside of what the system allows for, then it becomes acceptable to strategically use the system where it benefits your cause.
@@pierremartini2229 fair enough but your own personal reasoning aside for your vote, its actually effect is to create a consensus or a mandate which allows the winning party to wield power as they see fit. So why complain about their usage of power when your reasoning for voting was not for any specific policy or set of ideas but instead was a protest vote against the other party.
@@juanitodoe3792 But it is not just a protest vote. Tactical voting is all too often all we have in our very limited democratic system. I will go on complaining precisely because there is no party that has the policies that I wish to vote for, so I am forced to settle for the lesser 'evil'. Democracy is not just about voting, but being able to complain, protest and agitate.
I've just joined the Labour Party today, as you have convinced me. What has finally made up my mind is my need to support recent Trade union fights. I'm already a trade union member, and I now feel that Labour is the only way we can remove this evil Tory government. I hope that I'm not wrong.
I wish the current leadership of the 'Labour' Party supported trade unions as much as you do.
You do realise that Labour doesn’t support strikers either .
@@Joe-zv3iu But Labour still has a link to the trade unions and there are still Labour mps who do support strikers. We have to remember that nasal voice lego man does not represent the whole party.
@@Joe-zv3iu Why concoct fantasy like that?
@@amanred9337 My union, Unison, back Labour to the hilt. Its a reciprocal respect.
Always appreciate your brutal honesty Owen - You da man 💚
Imagine voting for Keir Starmer's Labour - YIKES
Labour isn't one man.
Labour doesn't belong to Keir Starmer.
@@powderandpaint14 but Keir Starmer is in charge of and the top dog of the labour party.
You sound like the Tories saying 'the conservative party isn't one man; Boris Johnson does not/did not reflect the party and it's values'.
Yes I can because the alternative is a Tory Gvt .
@@bothi00 but Keir Starmer won't be leader forever.
I voted for Labor in Australia, they're supposed to be for unions, but now they dominate the government they're cracking down and threatening to disband unions and acting like conservatives.
I feel like the political climate has changed, do any of the parties support the common man anymore?
I was suspended but am now back in and even though I am devastated at what Starmer is doing to the Party I’m still going to vote Labour because I can’t bear the Tories and think that more Tory rule would be much worse. I do think the UK would be better under a Labour government
I like your take on this bro!
As a waitrose shopping centrist dad myself, I'd be considered a tory enabler myself, except I moved so far to the centre that I'm now going to vote lib dem. But I do so for a very specific reason. Labour and the Tories do not support PR and I'm fed up with our country being told there are only 2 options and anything else is a wasted vote. 🙄
Also, whilst I don't know if you were guilty of this but the whole thing about the middle accusing the left about wasting votes for not voting for starmer, I heard the exact same accusation flying the other way under Corbyn. It's time everyone was represented.
Your last paragraph is why the whole 'Tory enabler' thing coming from the saboteur wing who threw the Corbyn elections is so fcking ironic.
@@WatcherintheRye maybe but it doesn't excuse the left wing attitude now. This is why I gave up on Labour. They are too broad now and pulling themselves apart. Same with the Tories.
Had a word with a commenter on Michael Lambert's channel earlier where he descibe Michael and yourself owen as far-left when queried 'far-left' the reply went off on another tangent ..so no answer
I'm voting Socialist or Green Party , I refuse to vote for what I don't truly want and Kier's Labour is truly everything that's wrong with Labour moderate and right wing at best
Pleased to hear it Owen….It’s our only hope….
Love you Owen even if I criticise you haha
Agree hopes, especially of the young, may be dashed with a labour government. As you say Owen, that could help the left to grow and influence. But there’s also a risk of far right getting traction too, so we need to be alert to that
Why vote Labour if they don't represent you? The left should leave the party and make it look what it obviously is and that is Conservative light. How much did the tories change their policies when they were threatened by ukip?. The left should follow that example
Very interesting and helpful Owen, food for my thoughts, thank you.
Always liked you Owen! No way Jose! Not Labour unless they drastically change.
The Tories AND Labour - both the Starmerites and the Corbynites - can all DO ONE.
I want a representative parliament chosen by proportional representation and an end to the two party system. Neither of the two major parties any longer represents a cohesive political movement and they both need to split out their moderate and extreme wings. Then everybody can vote for whoever they really actually want without holding their nose, and politicians will no longer gain anything by lying about their intentions.
Best comment yet @Ralph Clark!
agreed the old con/labour lines do not fit what the electorate currently thinks and aligns with. Brexit made that very clear.
No chance of a labour vote until they earn it
Yay to the next tory win.
I can't vote Labour with that man in charge. Too many of my friends have been subjected to false charges of antisemitism and then weren't allowed to defend themselves. Then there's the small matter of all those broken pledges. I won't vote Tory, but I can't in all conscience vote for Starmer's Labour Party.
Anyone thinking Labour is now Tory lite is either deaf or still only listens to the same people we all shared a bubble with going into the 2019 GE and our upcoming revolution 😢
Owen I don't hate you and I'm a labour supporter who's centre and a bit to the left, your opinion is valid and most of the time you talk truth and sense 👍🏻
Just he act's as if he knows everything but to me personally people who follow Owen are not mature enough to make decisions,
I measure the achievements of any party and listen to the election campaign six months prior and decide who can deliver, and I believe sometimes the incomebant party delivery better than the new party.
Exactly where I am mate
I live in a conservative area, my best chances are LibDems as they are less socially conservative than labour. Starmer and most of the Labour Party laughs at the idea of drug legalisation for example, on drugs the LibDems are pretty progressive.
The third Tory light party who is dead in 3/4 of the UK. But English, therefore, automatically got a better chance than any other non-Tory / Labour.
Please do tell me how great the Lib Dems were when they were in power with the Tories. Oh, that's right, they were useless. Just go back to your kitchen sink and prepare for government...
@DoubtingThomas Starmer thinks anyone working class or northern is a stupid, bigoted Ukipper. He'll go to Blackpool for photo ops with black drag queens, then the next week insist that everyone north of Camden is a member of the EDL.
I have 100X more respect for Lib Dems than I do New Labour, and I have basically no respect for Lib Dems.
And you didn't even mention "The best of a bad bunch", that's why I keep voting Labour.
Voted Labour all my life. Even though I live in a Tory stronghold. Cannot stomach any other party. They are the only party that can defeat the Tories. End of story.
You weren't around in the 70's but they were halcyon days for us on the left [despite the turmoil] Now you just vote Labour because there is no alternative!
Move to Scotland and vote SNP instead.
I live in a constituency called Hazel Grove, Labour can't win here so I'll vote Lib Dem, we all have to do what we can to get the tories out, we might not get exactly what we want but surely anything is better than what we have.
Owen Jones is too kind to the Labour Party. They point blank refuse to support the democratically elected leader of the party when they come from the political Left-wing. But expect total support when the Leader comes from the Right-wing of the party.
i don't 'expect' your support at all. if you don't want to vote labour now, it's fine. it's literally your vote, your choice. i voted labour 2017 and 2019, I thought labour were in a shocking state - but i thought, i quite like my MP. have a nice day!
@@sidevans1 The Labour Party has no divine right to exist. If it cannot or will not fight for the stated aims of its own policies, we have the right/duty to find alternative strategies or choices. You have a nice day too.
@@paultrought267 go for it. again - i don't 'expect' you to do anything - your vote, your choice.
@@sidevans1 Likewise.
The enemy of my enemy who is also my enemy is asking for favours with empty promises to 'help people,' despite having lied and cheated to ensure I could never help people🤔
Still another 2 years at least. Time for Murdoch and the Tory press to bring back Johnson and get the working class to vote Tory again.
If in a safe seat, register a protest vote for the Greens, but in a marginal seat, tactical voting must be the order of the day. The Tories just have to go. But then the impetus must be to make sure the Tories never get another undeserved landslide ever again. PR must be on the agenda for the next parliament.
Your comments on how the Green Party doesn't have much of a following in working class areas was interesting as I think it alludes to a larger point about voting intention. Politics is about compromise, you're never going to have a candidate or party who agrees with every single point that you do, but you vote for the party which most closely aligns with your beliefs. Compromise is something that many low income, working class people have to live with on a daily basis, never more so than during this cost of living crisis. This compromise most likely isn't something that the middle class, wealthy members of the left have had to deal with in their personal lives and as such they struggle with this new phenomena when it comes to their voting intention.
I’d vote for a party that would nationalise Power generating and Transport, and probably Telecomms too
Longtime labour voter and still Union member but after brexit I’d had enough and I moved to Scotland, I now have a proper choice.
Waitrose is the Sainsbury's to the Lidl shopper.
I look forward to seeing the programme later.
I'm a former Labour member who shifted to the Greens. I'm supportive of elements of both parties and have chosen the party that most closely aligns with my preferences. Given his differences with the current Labour leadership, I'm interested in Owen's reasons for not supporting the Greens, and "not my brand of politics" sounds a bit fluffy. I'm genuinely interested in understanding more.
I think that you would look fantastic dipped in Blue and Grey glaze made into a wind chime hanging outside of Starmers office door.
I am not intending to vote Labour. They (the leadership) don't support PR and their 10 year health plan has no mention of pausing, let alone reversing the system of contracting-out NHS funded healthcare. Their starting position should be to dismantle the Accountable Care Organisations and contracting out. Worryingly the plan does talk about 'modernisation' so that could be more of the same, not the ripping-up of Tory reforms. I used to never want to hear a bad word against the Blair government, but became very disillusioned. The lack of support for the concept of the NHS as it was originally intended is the last straw for me.
Your idea that there can be a mass movement of the Left within Labour won't work. Starmer will control the leadership, much of the NEC and the important committees. He will have stopped many people from the Left from even getting onto constituency shortlists to stand as an MP. Most of the Labour MP's will back Starmer and it would be unsurprising to see the rules for leadership elections block candidates from the Left from standing. Remember that Miliband democratised the process, making it more dependent on the membership and remember how surprised the Labour establishment were when Corbyn outclassed every other candidate. All because some Labour MP's decided to nominate him for the sake of party democracy. That won't happen again.
So back to the PR thing. Labour is the biggest enabler of the Tories in this country, because they support first past the post voting and thereby support the status quo. In 122 years Labour has only formed 5 governments with a significant majority. Starmer will get in and maybe serve a second term, then some economic problem will sweep Labour away. The Tories will pick up where they left off and they will be able to do so all the more because Labour isn't going to rip up the likes of the 2012 Health and Social Care Act. They may well privatise Channel 4 next time, they may well reorganise the regulation of the media at the same time. So that would mean the Fox Newsification and further corporatisation of our media. They well make boundaries and voter suppression measures all the more worse for Labour. Labour will see this country turn into a country more resembling Singapore, both in terms of the economy and it's pseudo-democracy.
I can't vote for that, I have to take my vote away from Labour, so as to give support for a PR supporting party. I cannot support the continuation of two party politics that result from first past the post voting.
If you lived in a constituency where there was no threat of you “splitting the vote”, would you vote differently?
Well said Owen, plenty of sense. STV well overdue.
Well this aged well.
8:01 Now he's thrown his whole weight behind the Greens😂
I’m a Labour member but I am really struggling how I can vote for a Labour leader who doesn’t support trade unions. And that doesn’t even touch on his treatment of the left and Corbyn.
No point voting Labour in a safe seat.
Is there any such thing any more? I live in a 'safe seat' that used to have a very comfortable labour majority. In 2019 my MP only held his seat because both the Tories and UKIP fielded candidates and they split the right-wing vote. I'll probably hold my nose and vote for labour as I think a tory MP would be worse than a labour one, and it could be a very real contest in the next election, but I'll feel like a hypocrite.
Never vote! That's what I tell the young uns.
@@bwright227 based
At 3:20 mins Owen Jones says, " Schrödinger's Left". That's a new term to me. Like a take on "Schrödinger's Cat": dead and alive until observation collapses the wave function (Psi ^2), as i recall from a previous life, and Wikipedia. But in this context, what does it mean, anybody?
This aged well...
Nostalgia corner: a few concepts that have long since lost their mojo -
nuance;
integrity;
honour.
Labour were awful on Brexit under Corbyn. They’ve even worse under Starmer.
This election isn't going to be about Brexit though.
Loved this Owen. Thank you 😊
Agree with almost everything you’ve said, the idea that labour are the only party that elect left-wing MPs seems kind of questionable though when the SNP are the third biggest party in Westminster - the SNP surely has a greater percentage of left wing MPs than Labour rn and provide a lot more contrast politically to the Tory’s than Labour do
The opposition of the opposition is not the government; the enemy of your enemy is not your friend
you have to call it out as it is and stammer is reallly going central to right
Do you think you could get an interview with Keir Starmer? It would be interesting to see you put a lot of your points directly to him.
I would never vote for the Red Tories …… love 🏴
@@gsiicam We are we versed in the Red Tories ills . They jump into bed with the Blue Tories when ever they can
@DoubtingThomas In a UK engineered Parliament you are left with limited choices
@DoubtingThomas If you want to pass your budget you have compromise with a unionist party many who were not even voted in by the voters.
That’s was before the Greens arrived 😃
Thank you Owen 😊 I will not vote for Starmer I will vote green
So you choose the conservatives then.
@@bwright227 To thine own self be true Ben .
@@colinbrigham8253 surely a doctrine that is selfish and self-defeating when applied to voting in a first-past-the-post system!
@@bwright227 Yes Ben PR is the answer, Starmer will not give us it and voting for a man that expelled Ken Loach Is voting Conservative
No brainer, you always use the thinner side of the wedge to begin with 🙏 Thanks Owen :)
Very interesting. much to think about. Lots of moving parts, like in the real world. Many thanks.
Tony Blair could have introduced a democratic voting system. He didn't because he liked absolute power on a minority vote (just 35.2% in 2005), thereby condemning us to much longer periods of Tory rule. All the signs are that Keir Starmer will stick with the current undemocratic voting system for exactly the same reasons. A vote for Labour next time is effectively a deferred vote for unconstrained Conservative government in the future. Labour is part of the problem - not the solution.
Reluctantly puts X in Labour box.
What about system like the Australian preferencing system, so you have a vote that counts. If I remember rightly, you have a 1, 2, 3 preference on ballot paper. If your first preference gets eliminated early, your second and sometimes 3rd choice get some weighting towards the candidate. I'm not completely sure how it works. But so many people vote against a party rather than an active pro choice. Should enable changes. I tend to be an ABC voter. Now I'm too disillusioned with parliamentary system, I don't vote , because it's all a con. Nothing short of revolution will give power to ordinary people. Revolution comes from extreme and desperate circumstances. It's all very depressing
Australian voter here. Yes, you are right. We have a preferential voting system (in the US it's called rank choice voting). Voters can vote by ranking their choices on the ballot paper 1 ,2, 3, 4, 5 etc. putting your favourite first and your least favourite last. If no candidate in your constituency gets 50% of the vote the candidate with the least first votes gets knocked out, and the election workers look at who the loser's votes had put second, and those votes are added to that candidate, and so on until the victor is the one with the most preferred votes. Often the winner wins not by getting the most primary (first) votes but by getting more votes because they get more 2s than the other remaining candidate. Polls show that voters like this system. You can vote by degree rather than by all or nothing. For example, I can put Green 1 and Labor 2 and if Green gets knocked out my vote goes to Labor, which I would prefer to the Liberals (Conservatives) in Australia.
It makes perfect sense.
Our system is binary under FPTP. Whether you like or dislike the leader of the Labour party is secondary until we have proportional representation.
Unlike you, I am a Starmer fan. I was never a Corbyn fan, in fact, quite the opposite, but at election time, I campaigned for Labour. Before the election, I argued against Corbyn and I criticized Corbyn. When it came to the election, there was simply no question - I campaigned for people to vote Labour. I will do the same whoever is leader of the party at the next election.
We need to learn as a party to unite publicly when we vote because the system in binary. We can debate and argue within the party but in elections we need to vote as a block, and campaign for PR.
You went out doing leaflets and door knocking with Starmer before didn't you? Would be interested to know what you thought of him prior to when he upset you Owen.
you dont use chrome dark theme, a sure sign of a maniac
Agree almost whole heartedly with everything you say here, my only fear is we can't push through what needs to be pushed to stop the Tories just turning it back around in the following GE.
One thing Labour really needs to do is work hard on getting their vision over to the electorate without sounding like they are promising the unachievable i.e. free Wi-Fi for every household although costed and possible no one believed it.
It’s not that no one believed it, it’s that too many believed he was taking the piss.
To be quite blunt, if I struggled to pay the rent, or struggled to pay utilities bills, or struggled to pay for food, or any combination of the above, I wouldn’t see much appeal in free WiFi. I would think that the leftist leader making that one his flagship promise is an out of touch bourgeois with no idea what workings class priorities actually are.
I shop at Waitrose sometimes , calls himself a socialist (obviously joking)
The best thing anyone could do at this point is to elect the local MP opposition to the Tories that polls the strongest. The exception being that if an outspoken pro-PR candidate (whether Labour, Lib Dem or Green) in a 3+-way race polls third BUT is actually within a few point margin behind the leader, *VOTE. FOR. THAT. PRO. PR. CANDIDATE.*
What makes you think Labour will do something about Housing? They did nothing 97 to 2010. Nothing on Rent Control. Nothing on Land speculation. Nothing on abusive landlords.
I would be interested to see how you would feel about preferential voting as a patch on our current system…
If I was in a marginal I’d vote labour. Im in a safe labour seat with a boring centrist labour incumbent. I’ll be voting green as an indication that I want more radical, ecology conscious policies represented in parliament. Its not a complicated issue - if you’re in a marginal vote for labour. If you’re in a safe seat vote with your conscience. I support the unions and other campaign groups. Not all policies happens in Westminster.