Sigh, as if this whole membrane-universe wasn't complicated enough. It'll be interesting to see what they've actually done with their formula of ePTFE to make this happen. Maybe WL Gore has come up with some new innovation to get them back into the race. Great video as always, looking forward to more!
When you are wearing a jacket there is no pressure pushing the vapor out away from you. What you need is a real world test. Put the jackets on run a few laps on a humid day and see what jacket performs the best. I have owned some top of the line shells that claim the world but don't preform well. Need to do a test that actually showers that vapor going into the jacket and getting it away from your body. I think this is a great test showing how well the jacket performs if you add some pressure to it that's about it.
Craig - Great videos, thanks so much for putting them together! I have a question about your pump setup. Looks like you just turn the pump on and let it go? If so, then one can only compare fabrics within the same test, and not from test to test. You can see that in this video - When comparing GORE-TEX Pro to GORE-TEX Pro Shell, there is more air flow going through it than when comparing it to NeoShell. This would be because there is less resistance to air flow when both permeable fabrics are hooked up, and therefore more total flow and less air pressure on the fabric backside. Think of covering up half of the holes on a 4-hole hose sprayer - The other two holes will shoot out more water. That's basically what's happening with the comparison to old GORE-TEX Pro Shell. Would be great to actually set the pressure on the fabric backside and use the same pressure from test to test. Then they would all be directly comparable.
DeepGlue - you are correct. I only compare 2 fabrics at a time, side by side. I originally tested one fabric at a time, but I prefer the side by side approach because it visually allows you to see the performance difference between 2 competing solutions.
+ProLiteGear Ugh, I struggle with this :-) Does the same pump simply split its airflow to two hoses below the two fabrics? If so, basically this is a parallel circuit setup, meaning the more permeable fabric would 'steal away' pressure from the other one. (?) Also, when comparing this video to the older one where you test Gore Pro Shell vs. Active Shell vs. Event vs. Neoshell, the Pro Shell in this video seems more permeable. Have you upgraded the pump?
Craig, thanks for the reviewing the performance og the new Gore Tex membrane. I currently own a jacket with Pro Shell, which regularly gets very damp during my daily bicycle rides. So I am considering whether I should purchase a jacket with the new Gore Tex Pro or with the eVent membrane. How does these two membranes compare in your test? Best, Rikki
Can you do a test on Pertex Shield + ? A lot of jackets are using that now, so I think it's becoming relevant. I wonder how it stacks up to more expensive hard shell fabrics like Pro, eVent, or Neoshell, ito breathability. The Shield jackets seem to be marketed implicitly as more breathable, since they are often lighter pieces, usually in 2.5 layer summer rain gear pieces, but I don't know if the membrane itself is really very breathable or just tends to be used in lighter jackets (that said I have seen some 3 layer pieces). A "rain shell" or 2.5 layer fabric breathability test would be good - could also throw in Mtn Hardware Dry.Q Active, new Marmot NanoPro, and other proprietary membranes from leading manufacturers. Would also be nice to see the new gore active shell fabrics tested, like TNF Oroshi. I'm really happy you're doing these tests - bringing some objectivity to bear and holding manufacturers accountable for their claims (one of the wonders of the increased flow of information via the internet; more transparency). A couple of comments on the testing. It would be best, as you know, to insure the same pressure at each of the beakers, meaning two pumps, or one pump with a valve that splits the airflow equally. The way it is set up now, if one jacket is significantly less breathable, it will appear hardly or not at all breathable, even if overall breathability may be significant. In other words, this test is more of a measure of the breathability ratio between the two pieces rather than absolute breathability. It would also be best to make sure you are comparing jackets of similar construction. I have heard the face fabrics (the denier, and maybe even nylon vs poly) can have a large impact on breathability, as can application of glue used between fabric and membrane (i.e. little dots vs big schmears). So only test 30D jackets against 30D jackets, for example, and generally try to match the construction, otherwise you may be testing the jacket more than the membrane. It would be interesting to see the breathability comparison between a bomber and a lightweight jacket with the same membrane (but different face fabrics and maybe 2.5 layer vs 3 layer), to test this idea.
Do you know if gore tex still makes both the gore tex pro and gore tex pro shell? or has the newer gore tex "pro" taken over as their premier membrane that they make? like is the gore tex pro now known/referred to as the gore tex "pro shell"? or are they still two different membranes produced by gore tex just curious because im looking at getting a burton 3L hover jacket this winter (which is only a shell jacket) but it says it uses gore tex pro shell, so i dont know if the shell in the name is referring to the type of membrane or just the fact that its a shell jacket? and from what i can see none of burtons high end jackets use gortex "pro" but they have many gore tex pro shell products... so im wondering if the hover jacket i want to get, is gonna have the newer more breathable membrane or is burton still using the old technology for some reason? any info you may be able to give me would be greatly appreciated thanks a lot and great video
Tyson Hook Go with a different membrane, gore tex has been left in the dust and you'll be SO glad you tried the other ones out there, eVent is AMAZING. Never buying gore tex again.
I can't believe this is the first ACTUALLY "breathable" gore tex fabric, they have had the market cornered for a LONG time, and gore tex has been honestly crap the whole time, now that other companies are making amazing products in the market they finally make a move to advance, that's called dropping the ball, and after using eVent, oh yeah, I'm glad they did. Gore tex has overheated and soaked me in sweat long enough I don't care how different the new stuff is, I'll be supporting other companies indefinitely, if my casket needs waterproofing, I'll write in my will they better not use gore tex, that's how sick of it I am. Always soaked in sweat, always sopped in water, always overheated, never again. I don't think they can keep up. Good riddance.
What do you mean the Neoshell is “slightly more permeable”???? It is clearly twice a permeable from your machine. I’m fact I have been a devotee of gore Tex for nearly 40 years and have always bought it for their guarantee, which I have had to use once, 30 years ago. 5 years ago I thought I would try Neoshell, as the breathability was rated extremely high. I decided to by a day to day rain jacket and was VERY impressed by the dramatically better breathability and lack one condensation build up inside the jacket. In addition it did not leak and I was convinced that from now on I was going to switch to Neoshell, as it was more comfortable. However after about 4 years, I started noticing that the inside was getting wet and put it down to the breathability being compromised, and me having been sweating more than usual. However these damp patches on the insides of the shoulders became more and more regular until in one heavy storm I got soaked. There were no obvious tears in the fabric or erosion of the inner membrane however I was soaked and the jacket was leaking badly. I was very disappointed, having thought I had found a better gore Tex substitute. Sadly because of the membrane deteriorating after about four and a bit years, I have now lost confidence in the waterproofness of Neoshell, even though it’s breathability was superb. Sadly I have gone back to Gore-Tex and hope the pro version I recently bought, will breath annoys as well as Neoshell.
So now that this new Pro is more permeable, how does it differentiate from the Active now? Do you think they may have sacrificed durability/strength to get this done? I have 2012 model Arc'Teryx Beta AR with 150p and 80p that has done well for me, the newer lighter fabric seems like it won't last as long as previous versions.
Good questions, all of them we look forward to addressing in future videos. The GORE-TEX Pro fabric used on the jacket we are testing seems super durable. I "assume" the Active will be less durable in the interest of saving weight. This may have more to do with the face fabrics used than with the membrane, but these are all things I will look into.
Is there away to tell the difference by holding/seeing it? logo difference? i find when i go to most stores i ask them questions (not just jackets) and they don't know or make it seem like it doesn't matter? so just asking "is this new" they might just say yes not really knowing.
It is difficult to tell just by holding the material because what you are looking at and feeling is the face fabric, and the tricot liner, not the actual membrane. Branding does appear very slightly different( "Pro" vs. "Pro Shell" ), but it is confusing.
DryQ is the same technology as eVent (see link below). So basically, you are requesting the same comparison as I do: New Gore-Tex Pro vs. eVent. www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/Insane-in-the-Membrane.html
Jack McNeil That is an incorrect statement. Wind Resistance and Air Permeability are two completely different measurements, and use different tests. Modern membranes are 3 dimensional, and do not allow a direct path of "wind" to get through them, but they still allow air to migrate through them. As such, fabric can be wind resistant and still air permeable.
ProLiteGear I could be wrong, but I think the term breathability is referring to water vapor passing through the jacket. You do not want air or wind to go through your shell, but you do want to remove humidity. Putting a hard shell over a boiling cup of water and watching the steam come through by placing a piece of glass or plastic on top of the fabric would be a better test in my opinion.
Jack McNeil Hi Jack, we have discussed the term “breathability” at length on this channel. Please watch this video: ruclips.net/video/GtkeSiT2-x4/видео.html We talk about the different tests that can be used(saucer, inverted saucer, hot plate, sweaty mannequin), and why we don't "dumb this subject down." I also show you a moisture vapor transport test in that video using a commercial steam machine and a pint glass. I have performed all of these tests... and feel very strongly that "boiling cup of water" moisture vapor transport test (MVTR) is not as relevant of a test as an air permeability test. The air permeability test gives you the best indication of how the jacket will perform in the field, and how it will feel wearing it. The reason is that jackets that are more air permeable also do a better job on the moisture vapor transport tests (MVTR). Please also watch the video on Wind Resistance vs. Air Permeability to understand the difference between these two terms: ruclips.net/video/vnVBOMJPvQs/видео.html Hope this helps clear this up.
you haven't the slightest clue of what you're talking about or how to run a test, nor what the parameters are. This nonsense looks like something one sees at trade shows aimed at people who are science failures that became salespeople.
Just know if you're reading this before you're watching that the video title is a lie. The video shows how the new material is breathable ONLY. He does not at all show it's water-resistance.
Nice video. How does Active compare to the new Pro?
Sigh, as if this whole membrane-universe wasn't complicated enough. It'll be interesting to see what they've actually done with their formula of ePTFE to make this happen. Maybe WL Gore has come up with some new innovation to get them back into the race. Great video as always, looking forward to more!
When you are wearing a jacket there is no pressure pushing the vapor out away from you. What you need is a real world test. Put the jackets on run a few laps on a humid day and see what jacket performs the best. I have owned some top of the line shells that claim the world but don't preform well. Need to do a test that actually showers that vapor going into the jacket and getting it away from your body. I think this is a great test showing how well the jacket performs if you add some pressure to it that's about it.
Craig - Great videos, thanks so much for putting them together! I have a question about your pump setup. Looks like you just turn the pump on and let it go? If so, then one can only compare fabrics within the same test, and not from test to test. You can see that in this video - When comparing GORE-TEX Pro to GORE-TEX Pro Shell, there is more air flow going through it than when comparing it to NeoShell. This would be because there is less resistance to air flow when both permeable fabrics are hooked up, and therefore more total flow and less air pressure on the fabric backside. Think of covering up half of the holes on a 4-hole hose sprayer - The other two holes will shoot out more water. That's basically what's happening with the comparison to old GORE-TEX Pro Shell. Would be great to actually set the pressure on the fabric backside and use the same pressure from test to test. Then they would all be directly comparable.
DeepGlue - you are correct. I only compare 2 fabrics at a time, side by side. I originally tested one fabric at a time, but I prefer the side by side approach because it visually allows you to see the performance difference between 2 competing solutions.
+ProLiteGear Ugh, I struggle with this :-)
Does the same pump simply split its airflow to two hoses below the two fabrics? If so, basically this is a parallel circuit setup, meaning the more permeable fabric would 'steal away' pressure from the other one. (?)
Also, when comparing this video to the older one where you test Gore Pro Shell vs. Active Shell vs. Event vs. Neoshell, the Pro Shell in this video seems more permeable. Have you upgraded the pump?
Craig, thanks for the reviewing the performance og the new Gore Tex membrane. I currently own a jacket with Pro Shell, which regularly gets very damp during my daily bicycle rides. So I am considering whether I should purchase a jacket with the new Gore Tex Pro or with the eVent membrane. How does these two membranes compare in your test? Best, Rikki
Great Job! Thanks for the info!
Can you do a test on Pertex Shield + ? A lot of jackets are using that now, so I think it's becoming relevant. I wonder how it stacks up to more expensive hard shell fabrics like Pro, eVent, or Neoshell, ito breathability. The Shield jackets seem to be marketed implicitly as more breathable, since they are often lighter pieces, usually in 2.5 layer summer rain gear pieces, but I don't know if the membrane itself is really very breathable or just tends to be used in lighter jackets (that said I have seen some 3 layer pieces). A "rain shell" or 2.5 layer fabric breathability test would be good - could also throw in Mtn Hardware Dry.Q Active, new Marmot NanoPro, and other proprietary membranes from leading manufacturers. Would also be nice to see the new gore active shell fabrics tested, like TNF Oroshi.
I'm really happy you're doing these tests - bringing some objectivity to bear and holding manufacturers accountable for their claims (one of the wonders of the increased flow of information via the internet; more transparency). A couple of comments on the testing. It would be best, as you know, to insure the same pressure at each of the beakers, meaning two pumps, or one pump with a valve that splits the airflow equally. The way it is set up now, if one jacket is significantly less breathable, it will appear hardly or not at all breathable, even if overall breathability may be significant. In other words, this test is more of a measure of the breathability ratio between the two pieces rather than absolute breathability. It would also be best to make sure you are comparing jackets of similar construction. I have heard the face fabrics (the denier, and maybe even nylon vs poly) can have a large impact on breathability, as can application of glue used between fabric and membrane (i.e. little dots vs big schmears). So only test 30D jackets against 30D jackets, for example, and generally try to match the construction, otherwise you may be testing the jacket more than the membrane. It would be interesting to see the breathability comparison between a bomber and a lightweight jacket with the same membrane (but different face fabrics and maybe 2.5 layer vs 3 layer), to test this idea.
Do you know if gore tex still makes both the gore tex pro and gore tex pro shell?
or has the newer gore tex "pro" taken over as their premier membrane that they make? like is the gore tex pro now known/referred to as the gore tex "pro shell"? or are they still two different membranes produced by gore tex
just curious because im looking at getting a burton 3L hover jacket this winter (which is only a shell jacket) but it says it uses gore tex pro shell, so i dont know if the shell in the name is referring to the type of membrane or just the fact that its a shell jacket?
and from what i can see none of burtons high end jackets use gortex "pro" but they have many gore tex pro shell products...
so im wondering if the hover jacket i want to get, is gonna have the newer more breathable membrane or is burton still using the old technology for some reason? any info you may be able to give me would be greatly appreciated
thanks a lot and great video
Tyson Hook Go with a different membrane, gore tex has been left in the dust and you'll be SO glad you tried the other ones out there, eVent is AMAZING. Never buying gore tex again.
I can't believe this is the first ACTUALLY "breathable" gore tex fabric, they have had the market cornered for a LONG time, and gore tex has been honestly crap the whole time, now that other companies are making amazing products in the market they finally make a move to advance, that's called dropping the ball, and after using eVent, oh yeah, I'm glad they did. Gore tex has overheated and soaked me in sweat long enough I don't care how different the new stuff is, I'll be supporting other companies indefinitely, if my casket needs waterproofing, I'll write in my will they better not use gore tex, that's how sick of it I am. Always soaked in sweat, always sopped in water, always overheated, never again. I don't think they can keep up. Good riddance.
What do you mean the Neoshell is “slightly more permeable”????
It is clearly twice a permeable from your machine.
I’m fact I have been a devotee of gore Tex for nearly 40 years and have always bought it for their guarantee, which I have had to use once, 30 years ago.
5 years ago I thought I would try Neoshell, as the breathability was rated extremely high.
I decided to by a day to day rain jacket and was VERY impressed by the dramatically better breathability and lack one condensation build up inside the jacket.
In addition it did not leak and I was convinced that from now on I was going to switch to Neoshell, as it was more comfortable.
However after about 4 years, I started noticing that the inside was getting wet and put it down to the breathability being compromised, and me having been sweating more than usual.
However these damp patches on the insides of the shoulders became more and more regular until in one heavy storm I got soaked.
There were no obvious tears in the fabric or erosion of the inner membrane however I was soaked and the jacket was leaking badly.
I was very disappointed, having thought I had found a better gore Tex substitute.
Sadly because of the membrane deteriorating after about four and a bit years, I have now lost confidence in the waterproofness of Neoshell, even though it’s breathability was superb.
Sadly I have gone back to Gore-Tex and hope the pro version I recently bought, will breath annoys as well as Neoshell.
How mgr/ 24 h is the breathability of the oldеr version - Pro Shell ?
So now that this new Pro is more permeable, how does it differentiate from the Active now? Do you think they may have sacrificed durability/strength to get this done? I have 2012 model Arc'Teryx Beta AR with 150p and 80p that has done well for me, the newer lighter fabric seems like it won't last as long as previous versions.
Good questions, all of them we look forward to addressing in future videos. The GORE-TEX Pro fabric used on the jacket we are testing seems super durable. I "assume" the Active will be less durable in the interest of saving weight. This may have more to do with the face fabrics used than with the membrane, but these are all things I will look into.
Is there away to tell the difference by holding/seeing it? logo difference? i find when i go to most stores i ask them questions (not just jackets) and they don't know or make it seem like it doesn't matter? so just asking "is this new" they might just say yes not really knowing.
It is difficult to tell just by holding the material because what you are looking at and feeling is the face fabric, and the tricot liner, not the actual membrane. Branding does appear very slightly different( "Pro" vs. "Pro Shell" ), but it is confusing.
Please review the mountain hardwear DryQ Elite and DryQ Core against Gore-tex Pro
DryQ is the same technology as eVent (see link below). So basically, you are requesting the same comparison as I do: New Gore-Tex Pro vs. eVent.
www.outsideonline.com/outdoor-gear/Insane-in-the-Membrane.html
So how does the new Pro compare to the Active in terms of Air Permeability?
The bubbler test or air permeability test is only testing wind proofness
Jack McNeil That is an incorrect statement. Wind Resistance and Air Permeability are two completely different measurements, and use different tests. Modern membranes are 3 dimensional, and do not allow a direct path of "wind" to get through them, but they still allow air to migrate through them. As such, fabric can be wind resistant and still air permeable.
ProLiteGear I could be wrong, but I think the term breathability is referring to water vapor passing through the jacket. You do not want air or wind to go through your shell, but you do want to remove humidity. Putting a hard shell over a boiling cup of water and watching the steam come through by placing a piece of glass or plastic on top of the fabric would be a better test in my opinion.
Jack McNeil Hi Jack, we have discussed the term “breathability” at length on this channel. Please watch this video: ruclips.net/video/GtkeSiT2-x4/видео.html
We talk about the different tests that can be used(saucer, inverted saucer, hot plate, sweaty mannequin), and why we don't "dumb this subject down."
I also show you a moisture vapor transport test in that video using a commercial steam machine and a pint glass.
I have performed all of these tests... and feel very strongly that "boiling cup of water" moisture vapor transport test (MVTR) is not as relevant of a test as an air permeability test.
The air permeability test gives you the best indication of how the jacket will perform in the field, and how it will feel wearing it.
The reason is that jackets that are more air permeable also do a better job on the moisture vapor transport tests (MVTR).
Please also watch the video on Wind Resistance vs. Air Permeability to understand the difference between these two terms: ruclips.net/video/vnVBOMJPvQs/видео.html
Hope this helps clear this up.
you haven't the slightest clue of what you're talking about or how to run a test, nor what the parameters are. This nonsense looks like something one sees at trade shows aimed at people who are science failures that became salespeople.
1. State your credentials, what do you know about psychrometrics, physiology, performance textiles and the outdoor industry? 2. Design a better test.
How is this fair? The old one is, well, old.
Full three minutes, and you didn't pour water onto the jacket. man....
Just know if you're reading this before you're watching that the video title is a lie. The video shows how the new material is breathable ONLY. He does not at all show it's water-resistance.