You only had to wait and pay for a rerelease after a beta version was forced to come out. Unlike something like Og Persona 5 where the game was finished and the Royal added more stuff, Vengeance was just a big apology to OG SMT V
@@ajzn97 it wasn’t an apology stop spreading a lie. This was mostly for next gen consoles and for the Japanese fanbase and people who loved the game on release. Maybe leave the internet echo chamber?
Yeah, he had more realistic approaches towards his alignment path as a character. (I'm just glad we had Green scarf girl with more depth to her to speak.)
27:00 In the Canon of Vengeance Dazai doesn't want to claim the throne at all. He's just trying to dispose of all Nahobinos and doesn't want to become one himself
The reason why you only fought Lucifer in CoV is because theres a separate True Humanity ending that you get by doing a specific sidequest line, in that one you get to fight Lucifer in all his forms
The option to fight Lucifer’s harder form from vanilla’s Secret Neutral Route is contingent on you having unlocked Fionn, Zaou-Gongen and Shiva for fusion in the CoV. They basically just reused those flags for getting the Secret Neutral Route in Vanilla/CoC
@@nathan7031 If I understand that right then the trigger to get the additional option to lock into the secret ending is not having these side quest completed but having these fusions unlocked which only means you will have had to do it at some point before, probably that same playthrough. Is that assertion correct? That would mean that if I start with CoV and unlock all these I can continue on that new game plus cycle and then just go for the secret ending without having to do any side quests at all.
@@billyboleson2830 I love SJ's endings, especially the neutral one. You save the world from the sharzwelt and prevent the Earth from being consumed entirely by law or chaos. Through pure determination, effort and the will to survive, humanity despite its flaws is given another chance. Their future is unclear but whether they will or not, it's up to humanity to right their wrongs and strive to become better after that near world ending incident. The alignment exclusive image that you get and the end with the message "Mission Accomplished" afterwards felt super satisfying as well.
@@billyboleson2830 Bruh what? SJR is great and actually gave us a reasonable Law ending, you know - what we SHOULD be doing IRL. Zelenin choosing not to be a piece of shit Russian and doing good by removing peoples' desire to do violence, and instead be real adults and DIPLOMIZE, is one of the greatest beginnings in the canon of SMT, dude.
On top of that, she goes even more based by doing a Satan and nuking the White God, the root of universal evil. It doesn't get better than that (other than Maruki but that's in the little kids' department of Atlus)
That's pretty much just Strange Journey Redux and Devil Survivor, arguably Persona 5 Royal with accepting or not Maruki's reality Those are the only good alligment choices in the whole series, every other game boils down to one ending being way better than another and the others being just stupid decisions or extremism Nocturne arguably has people who support Freedom and Shijima but most people take TDE because of the content itself and because TDE is objectively better within the SMT universe.
12:37 I thought Yoko was just making Tao understand how Sahori feels in this scene but maybe that’s just me. I think it worked though based on how Tao acts afterward Also I like being able to pass and not lose press turns, idk what you mean by exploitable I think it only makes combat more flexible
@@t_bone2145is it not using the yoshitsune gaining 2 full press turns + dodge >avenger/gogmagog > optimize passive > strategize > ~14 turns of giga Damage?
@@ironrex6979 The majority of games from the core series had been on Nintendo consoles. 1, 2, if, SJ, 4, 4A. The only SMT game that was unique to Sony was SMT 3. The older Megaten fan base used to get the games in whatever console they came out. Most of the old guard weren't limited by being console fanboys like a little of the newer fans tend to be.
I miss the SMT IV/IVA days of not being so open world, and i know that V/VV compacts the standard open world so that its open area world, but still, the whole running around felt like filler when its too much sand landscapes....great for the illusion of open world...but you know in VV when they added Sky View, had they played it out more like that, and only makes some areas open worldly...like save the running area for the city like areas and i guess some sand areas but had they minimized those parts, we could have gotta a good version to the O.G. V.
Great video, You really put into words what i liked about the vengence endings, like they're inspired by their law and chaos routes but not domianted by them while also being understandable. Also, hit the nail on the head with the the game expects you to have played canon of creation to understand its lore
14:55 Good video for the most part but I WHOLEHEARTEDLY DISAGREE with this take. Especially when you've stated you only used 2 Magastuhi skills: Critical and Succession. That means you truly don't understand how broken these skills are. I'd argue they are tied or even more broken than theurgies. Mainly because Nahobino has a ton of miracles and Evergreen Dance, that just fills it up for you. By the end of one turn, you can fill your shit up by half the bar by just guarding, using evergreen dance, and ending your turn. And the payoff? I've seen people beat the SUPERBOSSES of this game in ONE TURN because of skills like Strategize. Hell, my favorite that just tears through the game is Imaplers Glory + Magastuhi Charge + Luminescence Mirage + Parasalene Blur. That shit shreds through everything in the game. Even on Godborn hard mode. The only reason I could even assume you would have that take that it's NOT as broken as theurgies aside from only using critical, is because unlike Magastuhi skills, Theugies don't require set up. Magastuhi skills do.
I dont get folks who actively play SMT over other rpgs and then want the endings to be...more like generic good or bad endings that said RPGs they chose not to play all have? I can understand a burnout to the implementation but God don't dilute SMT to just a good or bad ending with no actual choices along the way. Thats how we got 4A and CoC, the worst stories in mainline. Theres no need to honogenize SMT, you can just be tired of it and play other things.
really really loved hearing your thoughts on this, vengeance caused V to change from being a mid-tier smt game to honestly one of my recent favorites! like you said yourself, with the way they weren't afraid to try new things with vengeance, i'm pretty excited to see what this means for the future of the series :)
I've never articulated this before but you hit the nail on the head with alignments taking the satisfaction out of an ending. When the ending you strived for is just "your ideology was good in theory but the world got messed up because you had to follow an asshole to bring it about" no matter what you do it's a huge downer. Interesting, SMT1's take on alignment is probably the best in hindsight, because Law and Chaos were less true routes and more PUNISHMENTS for letting your meter swing too far in either direction. Unlike most other games, if you're too far into Law or Chaos when their reps give you their "sales pitches", you're FORCED to side with them and will refuse to hear the other side of the story. And the Neutral route is more about keeping the extremists on both sides in check and stopping a power imbalance, rather than rejecting both ideologies outright. Also, Law and Chaos were heavily grounded in Japanese sociopolitical context (American military interventionism vs Japanese ultranationalists) and and that hasn't been done since. I feel Devil Survivor works because the core question of the story was ALWAYS "how do we deal with the demon problem?" and the buildup to every faction's solution is naturally worked into the plot. I also like Digital Devil Saga 2, where Margot Cuvier and Angel have plans vaguely resembling SMT Law and Chaos respectively, but it's a linear story with the party opposes both. "Sonic Adventure phase". Oh, so something that used to be hated now being praised? Wait... you mean the opposite? I thought people generally praised SA1 and 2 now, or at least admit they were great concepts and want a game with their level design but the tighter modern controls. The other gods like Zeus and Odin were my biggest frustration with the original. TRAILERS hyped them up as being big players in the plot. They... aren't. They're glorified midbosses for the final Da'at region and that's it. They don't even show up until it's time for Bethel to fall apart, making it very hard to care about any "betrayal". And that's not even going into Miyazu's whole deal with Khonsu, her only plot relevance in Creation, being an optional lategame sidequest. One thing I will say though. I think Abdiel is the only character who's SLIGHTLY better on Creation. Only slightly, but in Vengeance she's just a typical asshole Angel you fight a few times. While she's not great on Creation, I appreciate that they at least TRIED to make a more nuanced Angel, though that's not saying much. The fact that LUCIFER is the one who ultimately encourages her to go for the throne is also interesting. It's absolutely not worth giving up the rest of Vengeance's vast improvements just for that, though. (e.g I care about Koshimizu SO MUCH MORE thanks to Vengeance, to the point where I don't ever want to side against him in Creation)
I also got killed by the Cherubs in Shakan, lol. But on gameplay: most of the mechanics here are the same as the original, just with the level-based damage scaling gone or toned down (Put it this way, I was able to beat enemies 10 levels above me with the right team comp and strategy. This was virtually impossible in the original SMTV) and some new Demons. But the original's gameplay was so good it doesn't matter. As someone who hates open worlds, I never minded this one. The sidequests were always logically laid out in the area you'd do them, the exploration wasn't too bad and the Da'at regions felt more like big dungeons than open worlds. I will say though, I wish there was more variety in biomes than just city ruins. Shinjuku in Canon of Vengeance was a step forward... but it devolves back into ruins halfway through. The Magatsuhi Skills are weird. A decent number of them ARE very good in the right situations: Charge is great, I hear some swear by Accursed Poison (Debilitate + gives the enemy an Ailment they aren't immune to), and... I think it's the Tyrant one that doubles damage but also doubles MP consumption? That's REALLY fun. The problem is Critical is so practical in most situations that you're not incentivized to use the others. I've seen two-turn Demi Fiend setups that rely on underrated Magatsuhi skills, but casually Critical will get you through most of the game. This was also true of vanilla V, and I wish Critical got nerfed to encourage more variety. There's also new Demon-specific Magatsuhi skills (the Jacks, Slime and Black Ooze, etc) but I never used any. Sakuya's one seems good in NG+ but I haven't seen the others used.
"One thing I will say though. I think Abdiel is the only character who's SLIGHTLY better on Creation. Only slightly, but in Vengeance she's just a typical asshole Angel you fight a few times. While she's not great on Creation, I appreciate that they at least TRIED to make a more nuanced Angel, though that's not saying much. " To be honest, I'd argue that you aren't giving her enough credit and that Abdiel actually was a pretty decent character in CoC, even going as far as to name her one of the better non-human Law representatives in the series (this applies to Dazai, also - these two had the most development out of anyone in Creation). She's nowhere near as good as Mastema in SJ or SMT II's Satan, obviously, but she isn't SMT IV's Merkabah either. Abdiel is willing to allow Nahobino's heretical existence just because a relatively important teenage girl made a somewhat convincing argument (unlike, say, Camael, who just attacks on sight), actually treats you relatively nice in the few rare interactions you get to have with her in Acts II and III and clearly doesn't want to fight the protagonist during the Bethel Summit, but is pretty much forced to do it as a last-ditched attempt to save face in front of the other gods, who call her out on being completely useless (there is even a great shot of her silently staring into the sky, contemplating her actions, before deciding to attack). Not to mention the whole "fall from grace" thing, which makes her stand out from every other similar character in the series. Overall, Abdiel in vanilla was a relatively reasonable Law representative that put on an "iron maiden" facade during business meetings and important decisions, but was actually pretty weak and vulnerable inside, which makes sense if you consider her biblical origins (her name literally means "servant", and she is basically a beta-type personality forced into a leadership role she doesn't want and doesn't know how to handle). This also explains Abdiel's close relationship with Dazai - besides him being her Knowledge, of course - that was simultaneously work partners, ideological brethren, mentor/student and at certain points even mother/son, all at once. Vengeance, though, doesn't show or explore *any* of that and just makes both of them stupidly evil for the sake of giving the spotlight to Mastema - who is, coincidentally, also stupidly evil in this game.
@@charlottewiltshire6076 I actually agree with you. Tbh, I had to downplay my thoughts on Creation Abdiel as saying anything nice about SMT Law reps on the internet gets you slaughtered. (Unless they're Amane and sometimes Zelenin) I'm annoyed Vengeance made her "I smite you in the name of the Lord lol" evil too. Mastema I do feel is more interesting. He's an asshole, but his motives and allegiances are very hard to pin down and he's more that love-to-hate "magnificent bastard" type.
@@charlottewiltshire6076at the very least, the new hat scene is actually believable because of Mastema's prior history with Law-aligned blondes and the fact that it happens during a major story beat instead of right the hell out of nowhere. As soon as Mastema salted Dazai, that was it. Poor guy went the way of Zelenin. I'm actually kinda shocked there doesn't seem to be outfit swap fanart of the two.
@@BigKlingy "Mastema I do feel is more interesting. He's an asshole, but his motives and allegiances are very hard to pin down and he's more that love-to-hate "magnificent bastard" type." Yes, this is true, and I do absolutely adore Mastema, but he's also was kinda unneeded in Vengeance. In Strange Journey, Mastema was a great Law rep that subverted many expectations, in being both very subtle and manipulative in his actions (rather than the standard "I must immediately smite all evil" guy) and also kinda the only alignment representative in the series who does what he does for mostly selfish reasons and doesn't actually care all that much about the grand ideological conflict. In SMT IV, he served to show a positive and relatively nuanced sidel of Law compared to the much more radical Archangels. In SMT V:V, though..? Sure, the guy completely steals the spotlight whenever he's on screen, but considering that this is still his least interesting portrayal in the series and it was also done to the great detriment of Dazai's and Abdiel's characters, I wonder if it was ultimately worth it to include him here.
The thing that’s made me realise the gripes with endings in this series was the CoC true neutral ending. Literally “everyone is fucking miserable, but you’re still stuck in your ways. Congrats :)” Easily the most egregious example, especially considering all the extra stuff you gotta do to get it
It's also weird in being unlocked by doing a bunch of sidequests for Demons, and yet the ending treats erasing or forever separating Demons from humans is a good thing. CoC didn't give much indication that Demons were threats to humanity (CoV leans a lot more on that angle) so it felt jarring. That ending would've worked in Devil Survivor, but not SMTV.
@@BigKlingyyou mean kidnapping and assaulting them for their knowledge wasn’t a threat? You ignored half of the game or didn’t speak to the npcs or did any side quests? It was always in canon of creation.
@@ironrex6979 I hope I don't sound pretentious here, but a major rule of storytelling is "show, don't tell". Yes, some NPC dialogue mentions Demons hunting Humans for their Knowledge. But we never SEE this happening outside of Lahmu's attack, and within the context of this game it feels like an isolated incident rather than a pattern. I did talk to human NPCs were possible, but Creation overall did a terrible job of making you care about any human characters, making a human-centric ending strange. Meanwhile, what do we actually SEE in Creation? The Fairy Forest Demons taking in humans and healing them. Fionn's devotion to protecting people. Amanozako's bond with the protagonist as a parent figure. Aogami being a constant source of support. Koshimizu's drive to save Tokyo and make a world for demons AND humans. Demeter ultimately relenting on her darker plans thanks to the protagonist's influence. And of course Khonsu's care for Miyazu. Heck, even Lucifer killed the Creator for the benefit of Humanity. There's also that quest in Shinagawa, where some Lilims just want to meet humans in Tokyo, and the only ones voicing opposition are typical asshole SMT Law angels who most players will side against. If you let the Lilims go, you don't receive any indication they hurt humans. Which makes it all the more jarring that the ending where you separate humans and Demons forever requires doing most of these quests.
I find True Neutral pretty good but the requirements suck It's essentially about taking Neutral and making an extremist ending for it for once Neutral is all about "Humanity can thrive by themselves" so it's an ending about exterminating demons and allowing mankind to go their own way, the issue is that you befriend demons to achieve that it would have made more sense if to achieve this ending you had to do quests of demons doing terrible things to your friends/humans and you having to save them showing how demons can overpower people. True Neutral would've been great in a game like SMT IV because it would make every ending be about a different type of extremism instead of having an objectively good ending Law = Ending justifies the means, People are happy and under God's protection but by the sacrifice of Tokyo's residents and now under God's Authoritarism Chaos = Anarchy Darwinistic Ending Neutral = Humans supremacy Would it be satisfying? Honestly not much, but at least it would make every ending be kinda dark in their own way and harder to choose which one is the least harmful ideology In V, every endings had valid solutions, now in Vengeance i have no idea of why someone would rather choose Yoko instead of Tao's ending.
@@renren47618 Eh, I actually prefer the non "true" Destroy the Throne ending as an extremist Neutral option. You destroy the Throne so no-one can ever have that kind of power again. Humanity is left to fend for themselves against the angels and demons, but they eventually win the war at great cost. Only thing that sucks is you not fighting Lucifer, like the developers were saying this ending didn't matter. I thought it was a decent option alongside vanilla Law and Chaos.
You really should play Strange Journey and the Raidou games. Their stories, characters, presentation, and music are absolutely superb. Strange Journey and Raidou 2 are some of the best entries. I do agree of the main entries SMTIII peaked then SMTIV dropped, though for me it was mostly due to system limitations, lack of polish, and the blow of Kaneko not being involved, and SMTV brought it back up. I disagree with one of your points, I do believe the characters are deep in SMTIII since the growth of them embodying their reasons is a part of their character. I also don’t think the alignments are bad I do believe they should be spiced up again (more like Nine and Nocturne never like SMTIVF). I also like how honest the endings in SMT are. It is also the ideal way of handling video game multiple endings. They are all canon, they each have their good and bad, and are honest about the consequences. Which is one of the reasons I love them it’s a series that does handle consequences superbly.
21:40 THANK YOU!! Aogami’s revival completely invalidates almost everything in the second half. Tsukuyomi’s character growth, the emotional loss and need for vengeance, and overall making the new Nahobino form pointless. Had they killed off Tsukuyomi after Tiamat appeared then the plot wouldn’t have changed much. Personally, Aogami should have stayed dead. I loved how the demon haunts had a depressing atomsphere as you and Tsukuyomi talk about your loss comrades. My boy Tsukuyomi was done absolutely dirty
Saying it invalidates everything is an exaggeration, maybe? Jesus, calm down, I didn't like it either but it doesn't change the point of the game or anything important.
"Had they killed off Tsukuyomi after Tiamat appeared then the plot wouldn’t have changed much." I don't really understand what you mean by this. If Aogami is dead and they killed off Tsukuyomi, then the MC would basically just be left to give up without a Nahobino form, unless you meant something else. If what you meant is that they should have just kept Aogami alive and killed off Tsukuyomi, then that would significantly weaken the impact of Tiamat and the running theme of "vengeance" in the story.
@@coldsteeledge6248 what I mean is that if Aogami stayed alive and Tsukuyomi was killed off then the plot wouldn’t have changed at all since it the end it’s Aogami that defeats Tiamat anyway. If what you meant is that should have just kept Aogami alive and killed of Tsukuyomi, then that would significantly weaken Tiamat and diminish the theme of “vengeance in the story” You are absolutely right. Aogami should have stayed dead but if they were gonna kill him off just to bring him back then they might as well shouldn’t have bothered. If it were up to me though Aogami would stay dead. Tsukuyomi’s character growth was fucking stellar
@@peterparker1683 But again, that brings us back to what I said at the end of my comment. That would significantly weaken the impact of Tiamat's revival and the running theme of "vengeance". In my opinion, the framework for this arc of the game's story is great for that exact reason; it makes a lot of sense that a being as powerful as Tiamat would be able to separate Aogami from the protagonist, and Tsukuyomi's fusion eventually allows him to achieve vengeance by fighting Tiamat. Even if MC technically deals the final blow with Aogami, he was only able to get that far to begin with thanks to Tsukuyomi. I will admit that the latter half of this game's story has a lot of issues, but in my opinion, this isn't one of them.
I never understood what was uniquely bad about SMT4's endings though (aside from neutral). They're the most by the books definitions on what the endpoints of what law and chaos ideologies are, I think just reducing it to only 'genocide' is a bit reductive. And the White Ending is quite different from most other alignment endings and directly tackles the hopelessness of finding a proper resolution to how society should function.
@@therealjaystone2344 I'm not sure I fully understood that last part there, but I agree that SMT endings are pretty stagnant when it comes to variety. A good shake up would be to build alignments around characters, rather than the other way around, like Devil Survivor. There's no reason for characters to be this bland in an RPG, and 'its SMT so it's fine' is a bad excuse
@@ktli5648 I mean the choices throughout the game when it doesn’t matter much until you reach the endgame to make a choice and that’s the problem for Megaten games becoming too soft.
@@therealjaystone2344 Wdym in SMT4 you gain and lose alignment points from quests and dialogue choices all the time. I don't remember making a permanent decision outside the late game in SMT1 or 2
The fact Atlus is actually acknowledging Digital Devil Saga's 20th anniversary(w/ sound track and a store) makes me think that maybe we are getting an HD remaster or at least a direct port.
I dunno but I often prefer the non mainline games of SMT. I feel like everything I like of SMT is there but in a fresh coat of paint. That's why strange journey is my favourite mainline, it has a completely different setting, demon co opt system (even if I like press turn more) and interesting all adult cast. Which is kind of. Ashame cause other mainlines feel a bit too similar
I actually think now i understand why i got so burnt out, it was due to the allignments. I love the idea of multiple endings, but the issue lies in that they all for me take a entire game to get, like once you are stuck on your chosen path it feels like i have 2 hours left to discover what the means, and after it most of the time i felt empty. I found myself playing SMT4A a lot, and realized that i like it's story because it may have two endings but it wasn't like i was forced to go down one path if i went with how i would've responded in those situations, Strange Journey is the only game i will say i enjoyed alignments because those chocies mattered and changed up the story, not by like a lot, but having choosing whether to do something peacefully or violently just felt better then always having some type of middle option. Here's hoping in the future Atlus does something to spice up the formula
Strange Journey also altered the gameplay by alignments. Since Co-Op Attacks are the only important pay-offs of hitting a weakness and them being tied to alignments you're nudged to use demons that align with you. I find it also interesting how your alignment changes before lock in and therefore alters dialogue and offers you different unlockables
having played the original, vengeance feels somewhat feld back by the it. Don't get me wrong, Vengeance is great, especially the new stuff, but I wish they took things in different directions a little more. Dazai and Yuzuru are developed waaay better than in the original story, but their end destination is largely the same. It's not bad, but I was kind of hoping to see them end up more different. Also the endings and lucifer fight and such seem tacked on just to match the original game as well. Obviously this game kind of inherently has limited scope, as it's based on an existing game and by the nature of being a re-release it probably won't sell all that well. It makes me really excited for what Atlus will do next, without being held back by the trainwreck that the original smt v is.
my setup with tehom personally was having a party that nulled most elements like you, hitting all its weaknesses with the strongest skills one by one, and then when it charged its magatsuhi skill i put all my party into stock then used lumiscent mirage on nahobino to guarantee no one would get hit, really fun and unique boss
@@bubbletea_ the tsukuyomi essences are pretty cool and unique, i like the lunation flux skill, its just a slight mp restore but it consumes no press turns, so it could basically act as a completely free pass its awesome
I feel bubbletea’s struggle with prioritizing stuff you have to do, I struggle with that a lot, a good way to fix it is almost always make a list of items you need to complete in how important they are at the beginning of a week or if you can do it daily then at the beginning of a day
When I bought the vanilla SMTV I actually did have a lot of fun playing it. What’s hilarious is that I loved Abdiel lol but with Vengeance Tsukiyomi got more characterization and I loved him as well now. But yeah I think the game was in development hell here and there and when 2020 happened it messed everything up. The game probably be a lot different if it didn’t happened.
I can relate 100% with this video. Vengeance and Strange Journey brought me back to this series after being jaded on it for a while and I liked the new alignments quite a bit for once. I’ve always found the actual alignments in these games to be kinda mid. They are like a worse version of factions from elder scrolls or fallout.
I’m surprised you didn’t comment on the buff debuff rework for the adjustment phase. I feel that this change in specific is what makes V different compared to the rest of mainline and would really throw off returning players
Lucifer is fought on all but one route and thats because the True Neutral ending is locked behind several unrelated side quests that give you the feeling Atlus ran out of time when makeing the orignal game and is actually the most unsatisfying ending in the game as you spend several hours befriending the demons only to wipe them from existence
i really like vengeance and the overall moody and uncanny feel of its game world and it made me realize not only that I don't care about endings, unless the path to getting that ending is significantly different from other endings, but that i don't even think video game endings have ever been satisfying? whether it's a single video, a set of end panel afterthoughts about what yr actions lead to or a highly divergent ending that gives the story multiple simultaneous endings which have to be gathered into a single dragon break for the next game in the series, i don't care at all. the draw of a game is its scenario, its systems, its art and music, not how it concludes imho. (but I like Strange Journey even better)
Regarding that final bit, a big reason for why Nocturne had such an impact was exactly cause it was different from everything that came before. The Atlus of old experimented constantly to see what could be done. From what I hear, Nocturne's alignments were actually an attempt to break out of the series mold as they were seen as creative dead ends. But sadly, with the departure of the old guard, the new people handling the series just took the wrong lessons from the past games, trying to copy them rather than understanding what made them special.
I do have the odd gripe with the game. Like how you can still attempt to recruit demons with a full party. Oh sure, keep that life stone, 500 macca and half my HP, I guess. 🙄
BUT demons cannot run off or betray you at the end anymore like they did in basically any other mainline game. Where they just attacked you again or ran off with all your stuff. Here it is more your fault because YOU have a full party. And idk if you knew this but if you empty your party and recruit one of the demons again they remember and it's far easier. Atleast when the demons are overleveled.
Yeah, your resources aren't wasted if you do this. The next time you see the Demon with an open slot, they'll join for free. (And some have hilarious lines like "WELL IF IT ISN'T THE DUMBASS WITH TOO MANY FRIENDS!") This also happens if you successfully negotiate with a Demon above your level. They'll join the next time you talk to them at the right level.
Your a huge SMT and Persona fan. What would your thoughts be on a Persona game being based around being a hardboiled detective in a big city ? 😅 I think it would be an amazing change from the highschool setting.
I kinda like the ideas in the canon of creation the whole nahobino bring the knowledge of gods given to humans via the forbidden fruit thing is pretty interesting to me but i can agree the the characters just aren't good lol. I just wanted to play it first so i do not get demotivated playing an arguably worse (in case someone actually like it more, who knows) storyline as i wanted to play both.
@@BigKlingyBlame the pandemic for that also the problem of I heard a rumor a good chunk of the writing staff left because they were angry they weren't working on Persona which gets all the attention from the majority of gamers.
Why aren’t the characters good? I think the opposite. It wasn’t as expository as SMTIV but I did care for them and what they represented regardless of the little screen time. I thought they were pretty impactful. Vengeance did make me a full Tao supporter though I’ll give you that.
It's good when devs realise their shortcomings and improve on their products instead of just leaving them to die, although it was a full price DLC. Safe to say, everybody on the project absolutely cooked, especially Kozuka.
Downsides still exist in the new endings for V. Why do they not hamper the experience like in past games for you? It seems really weird to not explain, or perhaps you missed them, which is odd to me. A consistent issue brought up is that your rule could fall like past throne rulers (cyclicality is a downside you bring up in 4's neutral ending), and in the other one, you commit genocide (a downside you bring up in SMT 2's law ending). Also, how is 4's neutral ending equally bad as the other endings (8:02)? The least amount of people die, and it's definitely presented as the best one, which you even reference later as being the case for neutral endings (20:54). These are contradictory statements, unless you were speaking of a hypothetical game with all bad endings, but the way the video is structured, it seems like you are talking about 4. I don't think that was the case, but I want to be charitable, perhaps you just misspoke. The vibe I get is that you seem more bothered by other people's opinions than the games themselves, and since this game is too new to have a lot of those, you have a more positive reaction. The downside of the new law is the same as neutral in 4; the only different thing you present is fan reaction. A constant thing brought up is fan opinions.
I'm sorry but that summary of what happens for SMT4's Law Ending is completely wrong. Only the surviving residents of Tokyo and the army of demons are wiped out, the surviving angels leave and Mikado is left as a eternal prosperous human led kingdom. (which is confirmed via narration instead of a biased source) The issue the Law Ending is the cost you have to pay for the utopia it makes. Like did you just turn off your DS and assume there was nothing after pushing the button?
SMT5V is an amazing game that I really enjoyed playing but I absolutely hated its open world and endings (except true neutral in CoC). It feels like a very bad mix of linear and non linear progression and your experience is heavily influenced by how much grinding (or paying for DLCs) you're willing to do. The side quests although great for giving the demons personalities, get really exhausting. After beating it I just wish we could see an SMT3 remake with all QOL changes made for Vengeance, I think it'd easily be the best SMT to date.
Not really since the first one was mostly praised. I am grateful Atlus sticked to canon of creation and left it as is. While vengeance is a complementary piece. Both are outstanding.
@@labeilleautiste6318 it is one of the best selling and scored highly even by fans older fans like me. However you are correct in RUclips at least there is a small vocal minority. It’s sort of a reverse SMTIV. In RUclips is praised but on it’s release and among older fans it’s considered the weakest main entry. Heck even in the outside world I’ve never met anyone defend it unless it was their first. Eh I guess take everything from the internet as a grain of salt. I’m just grateful SMTV is getting so much love and extra content. It was worth it for me.
@@LegendaryOverfiend Maybe it's because the fanbase is full of idiots who simplify everything into oblivion and don't bother to try and look beyond the surface level aspects of the story. Like how SMT IV's theme was fractals within fractals, and how Law and Chaos were ultimately the same in the end.
SMTV played in the Switch emulator. It crashed after randomly starting battles though. So it was not the ideal way to play it. Not every battle, but like once every thirty minutes.
Thanks for acknowledging the gem that is the Hindu Vore Fetish Duology. But you and Tony keep reminding me Atlus chose to release an unfinished piece of shit and then deny us og backers a free upgrade instead of going back to the good crack that is DDS or Persona 2 EP, or hell actually getting fresh and making a new identity in the franchise (eg Lost Odyssey), (or releasing a real Zelda game like Nintendo's FINALLY doing), but... Le sigh u.u
You know what sounds pretentious, boring and dumb as shit? Losing interest on Smt just because "my aligments sucks" dude, aligments have never once mattered. All that matter is the sick gameplay, the great music, the nice fucking art and of course killing everything in your path oh and I guess picking the ending depending on what bosses look cooler or which one has more content cough TDE nocturne cough, so don't give us that crap about being "Pretentious" I quite happy with current megaten so yeah I hope they don't change much, just high quality turn base ass kicking system oh and You didn't get the True Neutral Ending or Power Up Lucifer, you fought his discount weak ass form The real Lucifer has 3 phases. Soul hackers 2 sucked, and Persona 5 tactica....meh
I have a similiar feeling towards alligments with the mainline series, they are the main reason why i got interest on it but also the worst part of it and the reason why i'm kind of losing interest in these games' story and find the spin offs even better, Persona 5 Royal did this better with Maruki than the entirety of mainline together. In SMT most of the time there is no nuance or hard choice at all, every ending but one sucks and it's normally Neutral, Nocturne actually had three endings that were kind of valid: Freedom, Shijima and TDE but most people go for TDE because it's the best one content wise, it tells a better story and makes more sense in universe, and it's also canon since whatever Demi Fiend appears in other games it's TDE Demi Fiend even if Amala Multiverse, for SMT 2 is Law but more because of the content itself and Satan and every ending is just k1lling God at the end. SMT has very shallow characters mostly, SMT IV and SJR actually had good characters tho but in the other games they are just embodiments of their ideologies or people for you to fight against At the end of the day Smt's philosophy discourse is mostly the same thing over and over again and Atlus SMT writters don't know how to write nuance because they want to spread an specific message instead of allowing the player to follow an ideology. Vengeance still this issue and ironically that's one thing V did well in CoC CoC's endings were all valid in some way their execution that was bad even True Neutral which i see as an extreme vision of the neutral ideology, but in order for this ending to work they should've made it be achieved with quests where Nahobino had to help humans who were getting in trouble due to demons of law and chaos clashing with each other instead of befriending them Now in Vengeance i see NO REASON why MC would join with Yoko considering what she does in the story and her ideology is so flawed and her ending is so unsatisfying compared to Tao's ending both in terms of execution and gameplay that i think that Chaos was an afterthought. Vengeance's final arc pretty much made me gave up on mainline stories, now i pretty much will only hype Persona when it comes to story or if they bring back DeSu/DDS.
“Shin Megami Tensei is back with a Vengeance” 🔥✍️
🗣️🗣️🗣️🗣️
the mac got extended
It already did with the original SMTV. SMTIV was the drop in quality.
You only had to wait and pay for a rerelease after a beta version was forced to come out. Unlike something like Og Persona 5 where the game was finished and the Royal added more stuff, Vengeance was just a big apology to OG SMT V
@@ajzn97 it wasn’t an apology stop spreading a lie. This was mostly for next gen consoles and for the Japanese fanbase and people who loved the game on release. Maybe leave the internet echo chamber?
The canon of vengeance did Yuzuru and tao justice, Yuzuru was probably my favourite character in the vengeance path
Tao was the best Yuzuru was alright but sometimes the things she say where sooo dumb like the car part she’s a lolcow
I thought he was handled a bit better in Creation. He was still really cool in Vengeance. Also Tao is best girl!
Yeah, he had more realistic approaches towards his alignment path as a character. (I'm just glad we had Green scarf girl with more depth to her to speak.)
19:41 "there's no single solution" impaler's animus + hassou tobi begs to differ
27:00 In the Canon of Vengeance Dazai doesn't want to claim the throne at all. He's just trying to dispose of all Nahobinos and doesn't want to become one himself
dinner is saved
The reason why you only fought Lucifer in CoV is because theres a separate True Humanity ending that you get by doing a specific sidequest line, in that one you get to fight Lucifer in all his forms
If my memory serves well, said sidequest line was also the CoC's True Neutral requirements.
I beaten Lucifer at my first CoC route before going for CoV to have the option whether I can take on him
The option to fight Lucifer’s harder form from vanilla’s Secret Neutral Route is contingent on you having unlocked Fionn, Zaou-Gongen and Shiva for fusion in the CoV. They basically just reused those flags for getting the Secret Neutral Route in Vanilla/CoC
@@nathan7031 If I understand that right then the trigger to get the additional option to lock into the secret ending is not having these side quest completed but having these fusions unlocked which only means you will have had to do it at some point before, probably that same playthrough. Is that assertion correct?
That would mean that if I start with CoV and unlock all these I can continue on that new game plus cycle and then just go for the secret ending without having to do any side quests at all.
@@giratina6665 it should work like that yes - its how it worked for the secret neutral route on the CoC after all.
i love this game soley because yoko looks exactly like me irl LMAO
@@lucymorrison who's Yoko?
That means youre pretty hot irl
"I don't like alignments they suck."
Thats an odd take but alright
*Proceeds to say he hasnt played any of the games that do it well*
I see...
Anyone saying SJ has amazing endings lied to him lol. They fit the game but they are everything people Criticize these games for being
@@billyboleson2830 I love SJ's endings, especially the neutral one.
You save the world from the sharzwelt and prevent the Earth from being consumed entirely by law or chaos.
Through pure determination, effort and the will to survive, humanity despite its flaws is given another chance.
Their future is unclear but whether they will or not, it's up to humanity to right their wrongs and strive to become better after that near world ending incident.
The alignment exclusive image that you get and the end with the message "Mission Accomplished" afterwards felt super satisfying as well.
@@billyboleson2830 Bruh what? SJR is great and actually gave us a reasonable Law ending, you know - what we SHOULD be doing IRL. Zelenin choosing not to be a piece of shit Russian and doing good by removing peoples' desire to do violence, and instead be real adults and DIPLOMIZE, is one of the greatest beginnings in the canon of SMT, dude.
On top of that, she goes even more based by doing a Satan and nuking the White God, the root of universal evil. It doesn't get better than that (other than Maruki but that's in the little kids' department of Atlus)
That's pretty much just Strange Journey Redux and Devil Survivor, arguably Persona 5 Royal with accepting or not Maruki's reality
Those are the only good alligment choices in the whole series, every other game boils down to one ending being way better than another and the others being just stupid decisions or extremism
Nocturne arguably has people who support Freedom and Shijima but most people take TDE because of the content itself and because TDE is objectively better within the SMT universe.
17:08 Everybody is gonna ignore the transition where Yakumo charged up his magatsuhi meter only to stab Nuwa in the chest? That cracked me up lmao.
"I'd like to Shin Megami Sensei V: Vengeance you from behind"
🗣️🔥
12:37 I thought Yoko was just making Tao understand how Sahori feels in this scene but maybe that’s just me. I think it worked though based on how Tao acts afterward
Also I like being able to pass and not lose press turns, idk what you mean by exploitable I think it only makes combat more flexible
Omagatoki Strategize is op, someone beat Satan in one turn with actually not much setup.
@@leixalkvinay2729 I think that was using a glitch
@@t_bone2145is it not using the yoshitsune gaining 2 full press turns + dodge >avenger/gogmagog > optimize passive > strategize > ~14 turns of giga Damage?
Soon as i got introduced to yoko i knew atlus was cooking with cov, and boy did they
Vengeance saved SMT, genuinely
You mean SMTV did Vengeance simply allowed all of the fanbase to play it due to it coming back to Sony.
@@ironrex6979 The majority of games from the core series had been on Nintendo consoles. 1, 2, if, SJ, 4, 4A. The only SMT game that was unique to Sony was SMT 3.
The older Megaten fan base used to get the games in whatever console they came out. Most of the old guard weren't limited by being console fanboys like a little of the newer fans tend to be.
I miss the SMT IV/IVA days of not being so open world, and i know that V/VV compacts the standard open world so that its open area world, but still, the whole running around felt like filler when its too much sand landscapes....great for the illusion of open world...but you know in VV when they added Sky View, had they played it out more like that, and only makes some areas open worldly...like save the running area for the city like areas and i guess some sand areas but had they minimized those parts, we could have gotta a good version to the O.G. V.
Great video,
You really put into words what i liked about the vengence endings, like they're inspired by their law and chaos routes but not domianted by them while also being understandable.
Also, hit the nail on the head with the the game expects you to have played canon of creation to understand its lore
14:55 Good video for the most part but I WHOLEHEARTEDLY DISAGREE with this take. Especially when you've stated you only used 2 Magastuhi skills: Critical and Succession. That means you truly don't understand how broken these skills are. I'd argue they are tied or even more broken than theurgies. Mainly because Nahobino has a ton of miracles and Evergreen Dance, that just fills it up for you. By the end of one turn, you can fill your shit up by half the bar by just guarding, using evergreen dance, and ending your turn. And the payoff? I've seen people beat the SUPERBOSSES of this game in ONE TURN because of skills like Strategize. Hell, my favorite that just tears through the game is Imaplers Glory + Magastuhi Charge + Luminescence Mirage + Parasalene Blur. That shit shreds through everything in the game. Even on Godborn hard mode. The only reason I could even assume you would have that take that it's NOT as broken as theurgies aside from only using critical, is because unlike Magastuhi skills, Theugies don't require set up. Magastuhi skills do.
I dont get folks who actively play SMT over other rpgs and then want the endings to be...more like generic good or bad endings that said RPGs they chose not to play all have?
I can understand a burnout to the implementation but God don't dilute SMT to just a good or bad ending with no actual choices along the way. Thats how we got 4A and CoC, the worst stories in mainline. Theres no need to honogenize SMT, you can just be tired of it and play other things.
really really loved hearing your thoughts on this, vengeance caused V to change from being a mid-tier smt game to honestly one of my recent favorites! like you said yourself, with the way they weren't afraid to try new things with vengeance, i'm pretty excited to see what this means for the future of the series :)
I am curious as well, hope to see more SMT and non-Persona Megaten games.
Good video, glad you went and played through the old canon too for comparison so thanks for that
oh yeah, it’s bubble time!
I've never articulated this before but you hit the nail on the head with alignments taking the satisfaction out of an ending. When the ending you strived for is just "your ideology was good in theory but the world got messed up because you had to follow an asshole to bring it about" no matter what you do it's a huge downer. Interesting, SMT1's take on alignment is probably the best in hindsight, because Law and Chaos were less true routes and more PUNISHMENTS for letting your meter swing too far in either direction. Unlike most other games, if you're too far into Law or Chaos when their reps give you their "sales pitches", you're FORCED to side with them and will refuse to hear the other side of the story. And the Neutral route is more about keeping the extremists on both sides in check and stopping a power imbalance, rather than rejecting both ideologies outright. Also, Law and Chaos were heavily grounded in Japanese sociopolitical context (American military interventionism vs Japanese ultranationalists) and and that hasn't been done since.
I feel Devil Survivor works because the core question of the story was ALWAYS "how do we deal with the demon problem?" and the buildup to every faction's solution is naturally worked into the plot. I also like Digital Devil Saga 2, where Margot Cuvier and Angel have plans vaguely resembling SMT Law and Chaos respectively, but it's a linear story with the party opposes both.
"Sonic Adventure phase". Oh, so something that used to be hated now being praised? Wait... you mean the opposite? I thought people generally praised SA1 and 2 now, or at least admit they were great concepts and want a game with their level design but the tighter modern controls.
The other gods like Zeus and Odin were my biggest frustration with the original. TRAILERS hyped them up as being big players in the plot. They... aren't. They're glorified midbosses for the final Da'at region and that's it. They don't even show up until it's time for Bethel to fall apart, making it very hard to care about any "betrayal". And that's not even going into Miyazu's whole deal with Khonsu, her only plot relevance in Creation, being an optional lategame sidequest.
One thing I will say though. I think Abdiel is the only character who's SLIGHTLY better on Creation. Only slightly, but in Vengeance she's just a typical asshole Angel you fight a few times. While she's not great on Creation, I appreciate that they at least TRIED to make a more nuanced Angel, though that's not saying much. The fact that LUCIFER is the one who ultimately encourages her to go for the throne is also interesting. It's absolutely not worth giving up the rest of Vengeance's vast improvements just for that, though. (e.g I care about Koshimizu SO MUCH MORE thanks to Vengeance, to the point where I don't ever want to side against him in Creation)
I also got killed by the Cherubs in Shakan, lol. But on gameplay: most of the mechanics here are the same as the original, just with the level-based damage scaling gone or toned down (Put it this way, I was able to beat enemies 10 levels above me with the right team comp and strategy. This was virtually impossible in the original SMTV) and some new Demons. But the original's gameplay was so good it doesn't matter.
As someone who hates open worlds, I never minded this one. The sidequests were always logically laid out in the area you'd do them, the exploration wasn't too bad and the Da'at regions felt more like big dungeons than open worlds. I will say though, I wish there was more variety in biomes than just city ruins. Shinjuku in Canon of Vengeance was a step forward... but it devolves back into ruins halfway through.
The Magatsuhi Skills are weird. A decent number of them ARE very good in the right situations: Charge is great, I hear some swear by Accursed Poison (Debilitate + gives the enemy an Ailment they aren't immune to), and... I think it's the Tyrant one that doubles damage but also doubles MP consumption? That's REALLY fun. The problem is Critical is so practical in most situations that you're not incentivized to use the others. I've seen two-turn Demi Fiend setups that rely on underrated Magatsuhi skills, but casually Critical will get you through most of the game. This was also true of vanilla V, and I wish Critical got nerfed to encourage more variety. There's also new Demon-specific Magatsuhi skills (the Jacks, Slime and Black Ooze, etc) but I never used any. Sakuya's one seems good in NG+ but I haven't seen the others used.
"One thing I will say though. I think Abdiel is the only character who's SLIGHTLY better on Creation. Only slightly, but in Vengeance she's just a typical asshole Angel you fight a few times. While she's not great on Creation, I appreciate that they at least TRIED to make a more nuanced Angel, though that's not saying much. "
To be honest, I'd argue that you aren't giving her enough credit and that Abdiel actually was a pretty decent character in CoC, even going as far as to name her one of the better non-human Law representatives in the series (this applies to Dazai, also - these two had the most development out of anyone in Creation). She's nowhere near as good as Mastema in SJ or SMT II's Satan, obviously, but she isn't SMT IV's Merkabah either.
Abdiel is willing to allow Nahobino's heretical existence just because a relatively important teenage girl made a somewhat convincing argument (unlike, say, Camael, who just attacks on sight), actually treats you relatively nice in the few rare interactions you get to have with her in Acts II and III and clearly doesn't want to fight the protagonist during the Bethel Summit, but is pretty much forced to do it as a last-ditched attempt to save face in front of the other gods, who call her out on being completely useless (there is even a great shot of her silently staring into the sky, contemplating her actions, before deciding to attack). Not to mention the whole "fall from grace" thing, which makes her stand out from every other similar character in the series.
Overall, Abdiel in vanilla was a relatively reasonable Law representative that put on an "iron maiden" facade during business meetings and important decisions, but was actually pretty weak and vulnerable inside, which makes sense if you consider her biblical origins (her name literally means "servant", and she is basically a beta-type personality forced into a leadership role she doesn't want and doesn't know how to handle). This also explains Abdiel's close relationship with Dazai - besides him being her Knowledge, of course - that was simultaneously work partners, ideological brethren, mentor/student and at certain points even mother/son, all at once. Vengeance, though, doesn't show or explore *any* of that and just makes both of them stupidly evil for the sake of giving the spotlight to Mastema - who is, coincidentally, also stupidly evil in this game.
@@charlottewiltshire6076 I actually agree with you. Tbh, I had to downplay my thoughts on Creation Abdiel as saying anything nice about SMT Law reps on the internet gets you slaughtered. (Unless they're Amane and sometimes Zelenin)
I'm annoyed Vengeance made her "I smite you in the name of the Lord lol" evil too.
Mastema I do feel is more interesting. He's an asshole, but his motives and allegiances are very hard to pin down and he's more that love-to-hate "magnificent bastard" type.
@@charlottewiltshire6076at the very least, the new hat scene is actually believable because of Mastema's prior history with Law-aligned blondes and the fact that it happens during a major story beat instead of right the hell out of nowhere.
As soon as Mastema salted Dazai, that was it. Poor guy went the way of Zelenin. I'm actually kinda shocked there doesn't seem to be outfit swap fanart of the two.
@@BigKlingy "Mastema I do feel is more interesting. He's an asshole, but his motives and allegiances are very hard to pin down and he's more that love-to-hate "magnificent bastard" type."
Yes, this is true, and I do absolutely adore Mastema, but he's also was kinda unneeded in Vengeance. In Strange Journey, Mastema was a great Law rep that subverted many expectations, in being both very subtle and manipulative in his actions (rather than the standard "I must immediately smite all evil" guy) and also kinda the only alignment representative in the series who does what he does for mostly selfish reasons and doesn't actually care all that much about the grand ideological conflict. In SMT IV, he served to show a positive and relatively nuanced sidel of Law compared to the much more radical Archangels. In SMT V:V, though..? Sure, the guy completely steals the spotlight whenever he's on screen, but considering that this is still his least interesting portrayal in the series and it was also done to the great detriment of Dazai's and Abdiel's characters, I wonder if it was ultimately worth it to include him here.
The perfect video title doesn't exi-
Many of the problems the original had are finally fix thanks to Vengeance. I double dip on this game but I don't regret it
Damn. I honestly couldn't imagine being a fan of japanese games and not having a Switch.
The thing that’s made me realise the gripes with endings in this series was the CoC true neutral ending. Literally “everyone is fucking miserable, but you’re still stuck in your ways. Congrats :)”
Easily the most egregious example, especially considering all the extra stuff you gotta do to get it
It's also weird in being unlocked by doing a bunch of sidequests for Demons, and yet the ending treats erasing or forever separating Demons from humans is a good thing. CoC didn't give much indication that Demons were threats to humanity (CoV leans a lot more on that angle) so it felt jarring. That ending would've worked in Devil Survivor, but not SMTV.
@@BigKlingyyou mean kidnapping and assaulting them for their knowledge wasn’t a threat? You ignored half of the game or didn’t speak to the npcs or did any side quests? It was always in canon of creation.
@@ironrex6979 I hope I don't sound pretentious here, but a major rule of storytelling is "show, don't tell".
Yes, some NPC dialogue mentions Demons hunting Humans for their Knowledge. But we never SEE this happening outside of Lahmu's attack, and within the context of this game it feels like an isolated incident rather than a pattern. I did talk to human NPCs were possible, but Creation overall did a terrible job of making you care about any human characters, making a human-centric ending strange.
Meanwhile, what do we actually SEE in Creation? The Fairy Forest Demons taking in humans and healing them. Fionn's devotion to protecting people. Amanozako's bond with the protagonist as a parent figure. Aogami being a constant source of support. Koshimizu's drive to save Tokyo and make a world for demons AND humans. Demeter ultimately relenting on her darker plans thanks to the protagonist's influence. And of course Khonsu's care for Miyazu. Heck, even Lucifer killed the Creator for the benefit of Humanity.
There's also that quest in Shinagawa, where some Lilims just want to meet humans in Tokyo, and the only ones voicing opposition are typical asshole SMT Law angels who most players will side against. If you let the Lilims go, you don't receive any indication they hurt humans.
Which makes it all the more jarring that the ending where you separate humans and Demons forever requires doing most of these quests.
I find True Neutral pretty good but the requirements suck
It's essentially about taking Neutral and making an extremist ending for it for once
Neutral is all about "Humanity can thrive by themselves" so it's an ending about exterminating demons and allowing mankind to go their own way, the issue is that you befriend demons to achieve that it would have made more sense if to achieve this ending you had to do quests of demons doing terrible things to your friends/humans and you having to save them showing how demons can overpower people.
True Neutral would've been great in a game like SMT IV because it would make every ending be about a different type of extremism instead of having an objectively good ending
Law = Ending justifies the means, People are happy and under God's protection but by the sacrifice of Tokyo's residents and now under God's Authoritarism
Chaos = Anarchy Darwinistic Ending
Neutral = Humans supremacy
Would it be satisfying? Honestly not much, but at least it would make every ending be kinda dark in their own way and harder to choose which one is the least harmful ideology
In V, every endings had valid solutions, now in Vengeance i have no idea of why someone would rather choose Yoko instead of Tao's ending.
@@renren47618 Eh, I actually prefer the non "true" Destroy the Throne ending as an extremist Neutral option.
You destroy the Throne so no-one can ever have that kind of power again. Humanity is left to fend for themselves against the angels and demons, but they eventually win the war at great cost.
Only thing that sucks is you not fighting Lucifer, like the developers were saying this ending didn't matter. I thought it was a decent option alongside vanilla Law and Chaos.
You really should play Strange Journey and the Raidou games. Their stories, characters, presentation, and music are absolutely superb. Strange Journey and Raidou 2 are some of the best entries. I do agree of the main entries SMTIII peaked then SMTIV dropped, though for me it was mostly due to system limitations, lack of polish, and the blow of Kaneko not being involved, and SMTV brought it back up. I disagree with one of your points, I do believe the characters are deep in SMTIII since the growth of them embodying their reasons is a part of their character. I also don’t think the alignments are bad I do believe they should be spiced up again (more like Nine and Nocturne never like SMTIVF). I also like how honest the endings in SMT are. It is also the ideal way of handling video game multiple endings. They are all canon, they each have their good and bad, and are honest about the consequences. Which is one of the reasons I love them it’s a series that does handle consequences superbly.
21:40 THANK YOU!! Aogami’s revival completely invalidates almost everything in the second half. Tsukuyomi’s character growth, the emotional loss and need for vengeance, and overall making the new Nahobino form pointless. Had they killed off Tsukuyomi after Tiamat appeared then the plot wouldn’t have changed much. Personally, Aogami should have stayed dead. I loved how the demon haunts had a depressing atomsphere as you and Tsukuyomi talk about your loss comrades. My boy Tsukuyomi was done absolutely dirty
Saying it invalidates everything is an exaggeration, maybe? Jesus, calm down, I didn't like it either but it doesn't change the point of the game or anything important.
"Had they killed off Tsukuyomi after Tiamat appeared then the plot wouldn’t have changed much." I don't really understand what you mean by this. If Aogami is dead and they killed off Tsukuyomi, then the MC would basically just be left to give up without a Nahobino form, unless you meant something else. If what you meant is that they should have just kept Aogami alive and killed off Tsukuyomi, then that would significantly weaken the impact of Tiamat and the running theme of "vengeance" in the story.
@@coldsteeledge6248 what I mean is that if Aogami stayed alive and Tsukuyomi was killed off then the plot wouldn’t have changed at all since it the end it’s Aogami that defeats Tiamat anyway.
If what you meant is that should have just kept Aogami alive and killed of Tsukuyomi, then that would significantly weaken Tiamat and diminish the theme of “vengeance in the story”
You are absolutely right. Aogami should have stayed dead but if they were gonna kill him off just to bring him back then they might as well shouldn’t have bothered. If it were up to me though Aogami would stay dead. Tsukuyomi’s character growth was fucking stellar
@@peterparker1683 But again, that brings us back to what I said at the end of my comment. That would significantly weaken the impact of Tiamat's revival and the running theme of "vengeance". In my opinion, the framework for this arc of the game's story is great for that exact reason; it makes a lot of sense that a being as powerful as Tiamat would be able to separate Aogami from the protagonist, and Tsukuyomi's fusion eventually allows him to achieve vengeance by fighting Tiamat. Even if MC technically deals the final blow with Aogami, he was only able to get that far to begin with thanks to Tsukuyomi. I will admit that the latter half of this game's story has a lot of issues, but in my opinion, this isn't one of them.
@@Edo_has_a_marvelous_persona you didn’t read what I said. I said it invalidates ALMOST everything in the SECOND half.
I never understood what was uniquely bad about SMT4's endings though (aside from neutral). They're the most by the books definitions on what the endpoints of what law and chaos ideologies are, I think just reducing it to only 'genocide' is a bit reductive. And the White Ending is quite different from most other alignment endings and directly tackles the hopelessness of finding a proper resolution to how society should function.
The storyline is great but the identity on Megaten games since 3 became a slow downward meaningless on choices before the ending
@@therealjaystone2344 I'm not sure I fully understood that last part there, but I agree that SMT endings are pretty stagnant when it comes to variety. A good shake up would be to build alignments around characters, rather than the other way around, like Devil Survivor. There's no reason for characters to be this bland in an RPG, and 'its SMT so it's fine' is a bad excuse
@@ktli5648 I mean the choices throughout the game when it doesn’t matter much until you reach the endgame to make a choice and that’s the problem for Megaten games becoming too soft.
@@therealjaystone2344 Wdym in SMT4 you gain and lose alignment points from quests and dialogue choices all the time. I don't remember making a permanent decision outside the late game in SMT1 or 2
@@ktli5648 that’s why I said choices becoming meaningless at later Megaten games (which each games made it worse)
The fact Atlus is actually acknowledging Digital Devil Saga's 20th anniversary(w/ sound track and a store) makes me think that maybe we are getting an HD remaster or at least a direct port.
I dunno but I often prefer the non mainline games of SMT. I feel like everything I like of SMT is there but in a fresh coat of paint. That's why strange journey is my favourite mainline, it has a completely different setting, demon co opt system (even if I like press turn more) and interesting all adult cast. Which is kind of. Ashame cause other mainlines feel a bit too similar
Too bad they haven’t made a good SMT spin off in like 13 years
Funny thing is that I and many others thought it was mainline for years but apparently SJ isn’t mainline at all
I wish they were making more SMT, SMT spinoff, and non-Persona Megaten games.
I actually think now i understand why i got so burnt out, it was due to the allignments.
I love the idea of multiple endings, but the issue lies in that they all for me take a entire game to get, like once you are stuck on your chosen path it feels like i have 2 hours left to discover what the means, and after it most of the time i felt empty.
I found myself playing SMT4A a lot, and realized that i like it's story because it may have two endings but it wasn't like i was forced to go down one path if i went with how i would've responded in those situations, Strange Journey is the only game i will say i enjoyed alignments because those chocies mattered and changed up the story, not by like a lot, but having choosing whether to do something peacefully or violently just felt better then always having some type of middle option.
Here's hoping in the future Atlus does something to spice up the formula
Strange Journey also altered the gameplay by alignments. Since Co-Op Attacks are the only important pay-offs of hitting a weakness and them being tied to alignments you're nudged to use demons that align with you. I find it also interesting how your alignment changes before lock in and therefore alters dialogue and offers you different unlockables
having played the original, vengeance feels somewhat feld back by the it. Don't get me wrong, Vengeance is great, especially the new stuff, but I wish they took things in different directions a little more. Dazai and Yuzuru are developed waaay better than in the original story, but their end destination is largely the same. It's not bad, but I was kind of hoping to see them end up more different. Also the endings and lucifer fight and such seem tacked on just to match the original game as well. Obviously this game kind of inherently has limited scope, as it's based on an existing game and by the nature of being a re-release it probably won't sell all that well. It makes me really excited for what Atlus will do next, without being held back by the trainwreck that the original smt v is.
my setup with tehom personally was having a party that nulled most elements like you, hitting all its weaknesses with the strongest skills one by one, and then when it charged its magatsuhi skill
i put all my party into stock then used lumiscent mirage on nahobino to guarantee no one would get hit, really fun and unique boss
@@subb9011 i didn’t know about the tsukuyomi essences until after i beat the game, but that is a pretty creative workaround.
@@bubbletea_ the tsukuyomi essences are pretty cool and unique, i like the lunation flux skill, its just a slight mp restore but it consumes no press turns, so it could basically act as a completely free pass its awesome
@@subb9011 i did pick them up afterwards. they're interesting. tsukyomi skills are kinda suited for agility builds which is interesting.
I feel bubbletea’s struggle with prioritizing stuff you have to do, I struggle with that a lot, a good way to fix it is almost always make a list of items you need to complete in how important they are at the beginning of a week or if you can do it daily then at the beginning of a day
Out of all the SMT games Devil survivors 1 2 on the ds and then there remake for the 3ds are my favorite.
When I bought the vanilla SMTV I actually did have a lot of fun playing it. What’s hilarious is that I loved Abdiel lol but with Vengeance Tsukiyomi got more characterization and I loved him as well now. But yeah I think the game was in development hell here and there and when 2020 happened it messed everything up. The game probably be a lot different if it didn’t happened.
Banger music
I hope we get future DLC that gives characters from other Megaten games(DDS1+2, Soul Hackers 1+2, past SMT, etc.) to get as optional bosses/allies.
I can relate 100% with this video. Vengeance and Strange Journey brought me back to this series after being jaded on it for a while and I liked the new alignments quite a bit for once. I’ve always found the actual alignments in these games to be kinda mid. They are like a worse version of factions from elder scrolls or fallout.
Let's goooooo
I’m surprised you didn’t comment on the buff debuff rework for the adjustment phase. I feel that this change in specific is what makes V different compared to the rest of mainline and would really throw off returning players
Lucifer is fought on all but one route and thats because the True Neutral ending is locked behind several unrelated side quests that give you the feeling Atlus ran out of time when makeing the orignal game and is actually the most unsatisfying ending in the game as you spend several hours befriending the demons only to wipe them from existence
i really like vengeance and the overall moody and uncanny feel of its game world and it made me realize not only that I don't care about endings, unless the path to getting that ending is significantly different from other endings, but that i don't even think video game endings have ever been satisfying? whether it's a single video, a set of end panel afterthoughts about what yr actions lead to or a highly divergent ending that gives the story multiple simultaneous endings which have to be gathered into a single dragon break for the next game in the series, i don't care at all. the draw of a game is its scenario, its systems, its art and music, not how it concludes imho.
(but I like Strange Journey even better)
Regarding that final bit, a big reason for why Nocturne had such an impact was exactly cause it was different from everything that came before. The Atlus of old experimented constantly to see what could be done. From what I hear, Nocturne's alignments were actually an attempt to break out of the series mold as they were seen as creative dead ends.
But sadly, with the departure of the old guard, the new people handling the series just took the wrong lessons from the past games, trying to copy them rather than understanding what made them special.
I do have the odd gripe with the game. Like how you can still attempt to recruit demons with a full party. Oh sure, keep that life stone, 500 macca and half my HP, I guess. 🙄
BUT demons cannot run off or betray you at the end anymore like they did in basically any other mainline game.
Where they just attacked you again or ran off with all your stuff.
Here it is more your fault because YOU have a full party.
And idk if you knew this but if you empty your party and recruit one of the demons again they remember and it's far easier.
Atleast when the demons are overleveled.
Yeah, your resources aren't wasted if you do this. The next time you see the Demon with an open slot, they'll join for free. (And some have hilarious lines like "WELL IF IT ISN'T THE DUMBASS WITH TOO MANY FRIENDS!") This also happens if you successfully negotiate with a Demon above your level. They'll join the next time you talk to them at the right level.
@@BigKlingy Wow, that's the kind of anti-frustraition feature I've been trained out of expecting from modern videogames.
Your a huge SMT and Persona fan.
What would your thoughts be on a Persona game being based around being a hardboiled detective in a big city ? 😅
I think it would be an amazing change from the highschool setting.
It's called Devil Summoner. Specifically the original or the Raidou Kuzunoha duology. Persona 2 Eternal Punishment also sort of did that.
@@backupschmliff1156 I would LOVE to see it explored more but
Valid comment 🤣
Kamen Persona W
@@ZephyrAeon1337 YES !! 🤣😭
Strange journey needs to be your next game.
I kinda like the ideas in the canon of creation the whole nahobino bring the knowledge of gods given to humans via the forbidden fruit thing is pretty interesting to me but i can agree the the characters just aren't good lol.
I just wanted to play it first so i do not get demotivated playing an arguably worse (in case someone actually like it more, who knows) storyline as i wanted to play both.
Creation was an interesting idea, it just needed more baking.
@@BigKlingyBlame the pandemic for that also the problem of I heard a rumor a good chunk of the writing staff left because they were angry they weren't working on Persona which gets all the attention from the majority of gamers.
Why aren’t the characters good? I think the opposite. It wasn’t as expository as SMTIV but I did care for them and what they represented regardless of the little screen time. I thought they were pretty impactful. Vengeance did make me a full Tao supporter though I’ll give you that.
apoc is better than 4 combat wise.
> he fought the weaker Lucifer
oh man you missed how they gave his harder 3-phase form way more teeth than back in vanilla lol
It's good when devs realise their shortcomings and improve on their products instead of just leaving them to die, although it was a full price DLC.
Safe to say, everybody on the project absolutely cooked, especially Kozuka.
Downsides still exist in the new endings for V. Why do they not hamper the experience like in past games for you? It seems really weird to not explain, or perhaps you missed them, which is odd to me. A consistent issue brought up is that your rule could fall like past throne rulers (cyclicality is a downside you bring up in 4's neutral ending), and in the other one, you commit genocide (a downside you bring up in SMT 2's law ending).
Also, how is 4's neutral ending equally bad as the other endings (8:02)? The least amount of people die, and it's definitely presented as the best one, which you even reference later as being the case for neutral endings (20:54). These are contradictory statements, unless you were speaking of a hypothetical game with all bad endings, but the way the video is structured, it seems like you are talking about 4. I don't think that was the case, but I want to be charitable, perhaps you just misspoke.
The vibe I get is that you seem more bothered by other people's opinions than the games themselves, and since this game is too new to have a lot of those, you have a more positive reaction. The downside of the new law is the same as neutral in 4; the only different thing you present is fan reaction. A constant thing brought up is fan opinions.
i bot it on prime day for 40 bucks o.o right on time lol
If I wanna get into smt after persona, what game should I start with?
III, IV, or V Vengeance
i'd also say Digital Devil Saga 1 & 2 are also a good starting point, tho they're not mainline games.
@@bubbletea_ thanks!
I'm sorry but that summary of what happens for SMT4's Law Ending is completely wrong. Only the surviving residents of Tokyo and the army of demons are wiped out, the surviving angels leave and Mikado is left as a eternal prosperous human led kingdom. (which is confirmed via narration instead of a biased source) The issue the Law Ending is the cost you have to pay for the utopia it makes. Like did you just turn off your DS and assume there was nothing after pushing the button?
Personally I was hyped for aogami to return at the end , prob since I played the original release tho
SMT5V is an amazing game that I really enjoyed playing but I absolutely hated its open world and endings (except true neutral in CoC). It feels like a very bad mix of linear and non linear progression and your experience is heavily influenced by how much grinding (or paying for DLCs) you're willing to do. The side quests although great for giving the demons personalities, get really exhausting.
After beating it I just wish we could see an SMT3 remake with all QOL changes made for Vengeance, I think it'd easily be the best SMT to date.
I am on my 4th play through.
23:46 I'm sorry, I *CAN'T*. "Naho-binary" rofl
Maybe the Vengeance is what the game got after bad critics of the first release
Not really since the first one was mostly praised. I am grateful Atlus sticked to canon of creation and left it as is. While vengeance is a complementary piece. Both are outstanding.
@@ironrex6979 i did not know it was praise i often observed the opposite 😮
@@labeilleautiste6318 it is one of the best selling and scored highly even by fans older fans like me. However you are correct in RUclips at least there is a small vocal minority. It’s sort of a reverse SMTIV. In RUclips is praised but on it’s release and among older fans it’s considered the weakest main entry. Heck even in the outside world I’ve never met anyone defend it unless it was their first. Eh I guess take everything from the internet as a grain of salt. I’m just grateful SMTV is getting so much love and extra content. It was worth it for me.
I don't think an SMT fan has the right to call anybody a nerd C:
peak
Imagine not liking Alignments. Actually a dumb take.
Wasn't the whole point that the _implementation_ of alignments was the problem?
In most mainline games the alignments don't have a lot of nuance or bring much to the table.
They're especialy bad in IV and V.
@@alsaiduq4363 alignments are good in 4 …. Until the alignment lock happens then the quality goes does the fucking cliff
He’s right tho, smt isn’t as nuance as the fanbase thinks it is
@@LegendaryOverfiend Maybe it's because the fanbase is full of idiots who simplify everything into oblivion and don't bother to try and look beyond the surface level aspects of the story. Like how SMT IV's theme was fractals within fractals, and how Law and Chaos were ultimately the same in the end.
SMTV played in the Switch emulator. It crashed after randomly starting battles though. So it was not the ideal way to play it. Not every battle, but like once every thirty minutes.
Thanks for acknowledging the gem that is the Hindu Vore Fetish Duology.
But you and Tony keep reminding me Atlus chose to release an unfinished piece of shit and then deny us og backers a free upgrade instead of going back to the good crack that is DDS or Persona 2 EP, or hell actually getting fresh and making a new identity in the franchise (eg Lost Odyssey), (or releasing a real Zelda game like Nintendo's FINALLY doing), but...
Le sigh u.u
You know what sounds pretentious, boring and dumb as shit? Losing interest on Smt just because "my aligments sucks" dude, aligments have never once mattered.
All that matter is the sick gameplay, the great music, the nice fucking art and of course killing everything in your path oh and I guess picking the ending depending on what bosses look cooler or which one has more content cough TDE nocturne cough, so don't give us that crap about being "Pretentious"
I quite happy with current megaten so yeah I hope they don't change much, just high quality turn base ass kicking system
oh and You didn't get the True Neutral Ending or Power Up Lucifer, you fought his discount weak ass form
The real Lucifer has 3 phases.
Soul hackers 2 sucked, and Persona 5 tactica....meh
I just prefer my atlus games without calendar systems, and SMT is the only series left thanks hashino
Smt alignments are basically a poor man’s version of the factions of fallout nv
If soul hackers 2 had a definitive edition in a year from now, then it would be like with vegenance
Lol SMT V and vengeance have a garbage story.
@@NamTran-xc2ip vengeance still got best new atlus story since p5r kinda sad
I have a similiar feeling towards alligments with the mainline series, they are the main reason why i got interest on it but also the worst part of it and the reason why i'm kind of losing interest in these games' story and find the spin offs even better, Persona 5 Royal did this better with Maruki than the entirety of mainline together.
In SMT most of the time there is no nuance or hard choice at all, every ending but one sucks and it's normally Neutral, Nocturne actually had three endings that were kind of valid: Freedom, Shijima and TDE but most people go for TDE because it's the best one content wise, it tells a better story and makes more sense in universe, and it's also canon since whatever Demi Fiend appears in other games it's TDE Demi Fiend even if Amala Multiverse, for SMT 2 is Law but more because of the content itself and Satan and every ending is just k1lling God at the end.
SMT has very shallow characters mostly, SMT IV and SJR actually had good characters tho but in the other games they are just embodiments of their ideologies or people for you to fight against
At the end of the day Smt's philosophy discourse is mostly the same thing over and over again and Atlus SMT writters don't know how to write nuance because they want to spread an specific message instead of allowing the player to follow an ideology.
Vengeance still this issue and ironically that's one thing V did well in CoC
CoC's endings were all valid in some way their execution that was bad even True Neutral which i see as an extreme vision of the neutral ideology, but in order for this ending to work they should've made it be achieved with quests where Nahobino had to help humans who were getting in trouble due to demons of law and chaos clashing with each other instead of befriending them
Now in Vengeance i see NO REASON why MC would join with Yoko considering what she does in the story and her ideology is so flawed and her ending is so unsatisfying compared to Tao's ending both in terms of execution and gameplay that i think that Chaos was an afterthought.
Vengeance's final arc pretty much made me gave up on mainline stories, now i pretty much will only hype Persona when it comes to story or if they bring back DeSu/DDS.
Hopefully there will be modders that add Biden or Trump route to the story.
Slop Megamid Tensei V
Les go baby