Really impressive work. This definitely took some time. It's funny, because Digital Devil Saga 2 doesn't have an alignment choice, but it has extremely clear cut law and chaos goals. Probably my favorite versions of it as well.
I personally would like to see YHVH portrayed as a benevolent force who wishes the best for all humanity, angels and demons. He still might force them to obey his command, but not in the way we saw in most games (aka doing it by force).
Hey tony, I don't know if you're interested but if you play strange journey, 4 and 4 apocalypse on citra you can download the hd sprite pack for the games from the citra's official community forum. I think it is specially handy when making videos when you have the higher quality sprites and also text.
Severing gods from human life is not that bad or sad. If all of those gods and demons only interaction with humans is to fuck with their life’s then I say good riddance.
I think a big aspect of why SMT struggles so much with Law endings is that there is a strong underpinning that Law knows what's best for the world, and this often contradicts the central thesis behind having a choice at all. So you end up in this very narrow writing space, where you can't make Law too appealing to kill all choices either. Often, then, where Law endings best succeed is an appeal to the greater good, but at a sacrifice (so long as this sacrifice is not so great as to be unreasonable), so that Chaos endings that don't appeal to that greater good aren't unreasonable either. By contrast, then, the Law endings that are bad either fail because either the sacrifice is completely unreasonable or there is no reasonable appeal to the greater good.
Maruki was the perfect law rep. More SMT games need to have a Makuki, not another "hurr durr free will bad god good" plot like of what we've seen in the majority of games.
Yeah, Law by its nature is just too polarizing. It's either objectively the best or objectively the worst, with almost middle ground. Edit: I mean this on an ideological level as well. Law requires a central, all-powerful authority to function. If this leader is perfect (ex Jesus), then you get all of the benefits and almost none of the caveats. If the leader is imperfect, even if still well meaning, then everything's screwed. And even a perfect leader won't save you from his successors. Just an extended explanation.
Summed it up perfectly.In order to make law bad,they force EVERYTHING good about it down the drain to make its reps and demons(specifically big G) the most horrific beings imaginable next to chaos and neutral. Its almost comical how good law would be if they stopped going the "they're all genocidal" route for 5 minutes like they did in 5.
Law routes could be infinitely more colorful and interesting if they just brought back the idea of having other deities ally with the YHVH squad in the game’s conflict, like Vishnu being an ally in the SMT1 Law route iirc. They kind of revisited this idea with the Bethel leaders but obviously didn’t really stick with it.
Yeah like the force of god and Hinduism team together to deal with other gods that they see other gods as warmongers and wanting peace and harmony for humans(and there kingdoms).
@@starmaker75 I think the Zoroastrian pantheon-the Ahura Mazda side specifically-should all be dedicated followers of Law as well. perhaps they could make it so that the three principal deities of each pantheon-Ahura Mazda, Brahman the Creator, and of course Yod Heh Vav Heh-are each three sides of a singular lawful entity, embodying different aspects of Law?
Since the good gods as law and evil gods as chaos is too clicke, how about the current religions gods as law and ancient religions as chaos, with some of both as neutral
It’s really hard to pretend that the alignments are all viable when Law is almost always run by the series’s main villain. Sure, they may claim that YHVH is corrupted by some greater wrong, but since only his side is apparently corrupted that way, it still basically results in severe imbalance rather than any meaningful philosophical decision-making.
I remember hearing about all of this stuff of YHVH being corrupted by something greater... But I get the massive feeling that this whole thing was completely discarded... Or it was a straight up lie from the beginning.
Yep, that reached peak ridiculousness in Apocalypse, when YHVH is "revealed" to be responsible for literally everything, and I mean LITERALLY everything.
Look at Law in actuality though, for the people of Germany they had to follow a horrible man as that was Lawful at the time. This is what Law is, not a right/wrong rather following someone else without freedom. Sure you could theoretically follow someone good through Lawful actions... but when a single bad person gains power you end up Lawfully following the bad. Following Law ends up with corruption and trapped in the corruption.
@@Buglin_Burger7878 Did you pay attention to the game because the first SMT uses a Japanee fascist expy for its chaos rep. Fascism's romantic nationalism argues for survival of the fittest and a resistance to some globalizing force which is why Hitler and Mussolini hated the Church. Obviously there are Christian Fascists, but the most popular iteration is anti communist and anti clerical in favor of the nation. Also homegrown fascism in Japan would not be YHWH worship as opposed to Shinto or Buddhist extremism. You'd have to think every country is Spain or America for that assertion to be true. Law in SMT represents an odd mixture of Communism and YHWH worship as it was two things Japan feared taking over, hence why Law has a robot alien theme too. If you went with Stalin though I'd have relented.
I remember having a discussion of how to take the alignments of SMT in more interesting directions, especially Law. This would be more work, but splitting the alignments into smaller factions to allow for a spectrum of beliefs would make in game decisions feel far more natural and less of what you stated was the main problem with endings like 4’s Law: the disparity between the small decisions and the big finale. For Law specifically the framework is already there. Have YHVH be largely ambiguous, a voice who comes in throughout the game, but like his biblical depictions relies on his servants and prophets to carry out His will. However, what if His voice vanished for whatever reason (kinda like the set up of 5’s plot but not obvious)? The Upper and Lower choirs would have differing opinions on how to handle humanity. The Upper Choirs (led by the Seraphim) tasked with maintaining the laws of the universe, would come to the conclusion that sinful humans are destroying God’s perfect world. With him no longer giving them orders, they would default to their own thoughts: God’s perfect world above all. They would seek to either destroy or change humanity into something they’re not: effectively making them entirely new beings. No free will, no sin, but perfect harmony with all. However the Lower Choir (led by the Archangels) would oppose this. They serve God by interacting directly with humanity and know that despite their Fall, He still loves them and wishes for them to accept salvation freely, maintaining what makes them human and images of God himself. As God’s messengers, they would know the best way of finding YHVH’s guidance and lead humanity down a path according to his words, not his established laws. Chaos of course would be divided into alignments like Mem Aleph’s return to the primeval, or Lucifer’s freedom of beliefs like SMT 2. And finally for Neutral you can do either Yakumo’s “human’s alone” mentality (but in a way that matches your actions in game) or do the “bonds” ending from 4 apocalypse or New Chaos in Redux: a world where demons and humans work together.
So like Shin Megami Tensei Nine did it? With Dark-Law, True Law, Light-Law, Neutral-Dark, True Neutral, Neutral-Light, Dark-Chaos, True Chaos and Light-chaos?
That Law setup honestly sounds really cool, and even manages to work in that sort of underdog layer that Chaos and Neutral routes get a lot, with the whole lower vs upper thing. And it’d be a neat way to give Law players their own boss fight against Mettatron or Satan. The idea of adding to the stakes by having faction infighting that needs to be settled for you to have a chance of taking on the opposing forces is a really cool setup for a series that’s all about ideological conflicts.
@@P23P119 If you wanted to feel extra bad, it’d be easy to work in a “kill all the demons who helped humanity survive” part of the humanity only faction ending, kill Lucifer who just wanted to offer freedom of choice over primal urges in the Chaos route, and of course in Law: the Seraphim decreeing the angels wishing to preserve humanity are fallen and corrupt them before sending them to hell. Yes this would be a bit biased against the “pure” routes, but you can have their endings be more conclusive in their efforts, while the milder factions still leave the possibility of strife and conflict open in the future. The temptation of sin will persist, demons could attack humans if their alliance ever broke, and freedom of belief would give rise to extreme groups that seek to dominate over all others.
SMT V seemed like the first law route where I at least didn't feel like crap for siding with. God's last act was to protect Tokyo as long as he could, all you are doing is maintaining that last act in his stead. It's my preferred ending in that game because creating a new pantheon is stupid, making humans fend off demons by themselves is stupid, and killing Aogami is stupid.
Law ending is the most rewarding for me personally as well, aside from the strange representation throughout the game proper. YHVH was not there so his actions spoke for him, and yeah his last act being to preserve humanity said more positively about him than any portrayal in the game could have
Usually I'm a Chaos guy but yeah Law is absolutely the best ending in V. You revive everyone, you don't kill demons unfairly, and Nahobino is happy ans won't be as bad as YHVH was as God. They tried to shoehorn a "butt fRee wILL?!" But it doesn't work as the ending says humans don't need to think for themselves, not that they can't.
Idk I dissagree, I saw absolutely no reason to side law. They treat you like shit after you help them and then they try to kill you for being a nahobino, absolutely no reason to side with them. The only good ending is secret neutral. No gods or demons just a world for humans
Yeah you all are right but... I love gods. So I was more under that reason choosing my ending in this game. I love the "A constellation of myriad gods will illuminate a free horizon" quote said by Tsukuyomi. I never was a chaos guy in other games but this time "Politheistic route" was my most personal-linked ending. Or neutral maybe. Law and "True Neutral" are fine but as I said, I don't like the idea of eliminate demons. I'd rather keep humans struggling with it like in other neutral endings, I and IV ones to be precise. Nevertheless, in "secret neutral ending" even if I vanished demons from the land, we got more knowledge about the function of the Universe, and its Mandala system. And at the very end the narrator clarified "only cosmos/the great will knows how much this world without demons will last" letting the door opened. I think every single ending was interesting and well done.
@@TheMidnightChannel sure bethel is mean to you, but in terms of getting what you want, which narratively the only thing the MC seems to want is to rescue his home, law is the easiest way to do that since it just keeps the status quo. The secret ending is such a betrayal to Aogami who has done nothing but love and protect you. It's like pulling the trigger on Old Yeller and in this case he didn't even have hydrophobia.
One thing i'd like to say is that in the Law Redux segment, YHVH wasn't made into an evil character, Shekinah's only a fragment of his power that took form and wanted to rule absolute. He appears on his true form on the EX Mission Demiurge battle where you battle another fragment of his power, Demiurge, and starts to reconstruct his form. The game does say that he is arrogant but, even with his arrogance, he promises to guard humanity as long as humanity promises to obey and follow the holy spirit. There's nothing more than this for his real appearance, because in the game lore he is "dead" and fragmented in multiple forms that want his power for themselves.
I think the series' problem is that it keeps fighting strawmen and surface level teenager philosophy. Strange Journey seemed to finally evolve these ideas more to steelman area giving more compelling reason for all of them but V seemed to still return back to weak positions.
Hard agree, Strange Journey peaked in the believability of LAW to most people then SMT5 regressed back worse than any of the games. It shouldn't be this difficult to justify the importance of law and order even after the apocalypse, SMT 1 did it
I think SMT endings could be helped a lot by leaning on the other alignment chart that they rarely actually touch, light/neutral/dark. Say there’s a law side that wants to destroy all it sees as evil and there’s also a law side that wants to uplift humanity to what it sees as the best path. Being able to have multiple flavours of law and chaos endings in one game would do wonders for easing the objective good and bad of certain alignment endings
There are only 2 games that use the Light/Neutral/Dark variations to their endings. Majin Tensei 2 Spiral Nemesis and SMT NINE. The former has a full translation ready, but it NEVER comes up in conversation. And the later doesnt even have a proper full translation. And its also a plagued by pretty dull gameplay.
I wish light chaos can be more touches uppon: a world where no gods chain US, where strong and weak are and work as equally for The betterment of The world, where everyone lives inbfreedom and harmony and able to Chase their dreams and purpouse in life with those You call friends
I actually find the strange journey neutral endings incredibly bleak, especially in today's day and age; basically arguing that humanity is incapable of learning from their mistakes to make any meaningful change, and that the only way they'll survive is through permanent outside help (the fact that space marine's role in protecting them causes him to lose his humanity is really pointed there too - he is forced to be an outsider to society for protecting us.) It's a really strange and hopeless take on a neutral ending for the game whose whole scenario is a direct allusion to the effects of climate change
Even if we learn to manage resources better, this doesn't change the fact that we so quickly forget the moral lessons learned at the cost of many. How many times are we going to try to implement communism before we finally realize that it isn't feasible? Humanity will probably attempt to implement it endlessly using the explanation that "it'll be different this time." Regardless of how many millions are killed in the process. Because humans don't learn. They struggle to accept that utopia doesn't exist. That the majority of their problems stem from their own hearts, and not from an outside force. They lack the foresight to be able to tell when their attempts to fix a problem will result in making it worse. So quickly we forget that materialism leads to unhappiness. So quickly we lose our tempers and act rashly. So quickly we forget the importance of responsibility and become consumed with licentiousness. Human wisdom is not passed down cleanly from one Generation to the next. It diminishes. Until it is completely forgotten. And then when catastrophe strikes, we relearn the lessons, tech it to the next generation, and it's forgotten not soon after. We exist in a perpetual state of decay. Never able to overcome the mistakes our ancestors have made. We are bound to them. Doomed to repeat the past for as long as we walk the earth.
All the original endings are bleak honestly Law makes everyone mindless drones, the second most extreme of all Law endings in the series, losing only to SMT2's straight up genocideal ending Chaos dooms humanity to extinction, since demons have a huge advantage over humans in terms of brute power and mem aleph removed the only advantage humanity had over some demons: wits and rationality. And Neutral is downright bleak and depressing as you already described
Alignments are in desperate need of a shake up. While I understand mainline is all about the more cosmic aspect and as such should reflect that I think a more down to earth approach would do wonders for the system and will lead to more nuance and complexity the story could have.
No, they just need to be more subtle and less biased, no need to another #5282829 "down to earth" ending. The cosmic aspect is part of the appeal for smt and appealing to people outside the target audience is just plain stupid
I feel like they were initally on this track but after the 2018 overhaul that got sidelined. I mean, they were intending to make the game more focused on social issues and such, right? That is still present somewhat with the Sahori thing and the sidequest alignments but it doesn't go that far...
law doesn't deserve any nuance. If it had nuance it wouldn't be law. Law is literally just about maintaining a terrible status quo that sucks for anyone not at the very top of the law pyramid scheme.
Leave it purely for anecdotal and reaserch reasons, but try reading or learning about some of the more eastern deities and demons. Not because I really want to see a video on one but also since our mythos is sometimes straight up wild. Want an example? Everyone knows Shiva right? Most popular Indian deity and destroyer of worlds. In one event he gifted a demon the power to destroy anything he touched with his right hand, which the demon decided to test on Shiva, this led to Shiva being chased by the demon all across his home Mount Kailash. Finally Vishnu intervenes by transforming himself into a dancing woman and tricking the demon into touching his own head and destroying himself. This one story is easily my favorite.
Shiva is really cool. I remember hearing about this one story where some hunters went out hunting and when they came back they found Shiva dancing with their wives. In anger, they cursed at Shiva and this for some reason caused his penis to fall off, which then began to melt through the earth because it was so hot. This would eventually be stopped when one of the gods put a bowl of water under it. Not sure how accurate my recollection of the story is, but I remember watching a series of lectures on Shiva somewhere on youtube where the professor (or maybe he was a priest, I can't remember) recounted the story. I haven't been able to find it since, so if anyone knows what I'm talking about please send me the link because I would really like to watch it again.
@@magusthethricegreat7412 That's some amazing dong he got there bruh. No wonder Parvati got a fierce aspect of Kali of Durga. One must be able to handle their partner after all.
Devil Survivor Overclocked probably has the best ethos for endings of the series. You're presented with problems which you have obvious interest in, ending the lock down, saving your friends, becoming the King of Bel, and then it asks you in which way do you want to solve them. There's obvious chaos and law courses with Naoya and Amane, but it doesn't beat you over the head with alignments instead asking what exactly you want to motivate you while making all options reasonable. Serve God, as even in this ordeal he's been merciful, or screw him cause what give him the right to throw you into an ordeal anyway? Control the demons for proper use and bring the world a cohabitation with the occult powers, or send them all back to the expanse and be done with it? And as always with Best Girl, bail, cause this sucks and I don't wanna be here. There's been some ending throughout the series that kind of do the same open endedness to it, SMTIV neutral ending has you want to protect Tokyo but not at the cost of Mikado. Good goal, kinda falls apart with how difficult it is to get that fucking ending.
@@kuraux56s59 Devil survivor 1 nailed the different paths as they all have there postoperative and negative parts and you can feel good no matter what part you pick.
@@4wheal Fucking yeah. Outside of Atsuro's ending, and the original version of Yuzu's ending. All of the other paths in Devil Survivor feel like they are valid options! And NOT stupid "SURPRISE!!! We are going to do bad stuff anyway!"-bait and switchs!
agreed for SMT IV neutral route. WHO THE FUCK THOUGHT IT WAS A GOOD IDEA TO MAKE LIKE 15-20 SIDEQUESTS MANDATORY TO ADVANCE THROUGH THE STORY?! Not only did it destroy the story pacing of the neutral route, but most of the side quest felt pretty pointless and didn't feel like they were contributing to the main story.
It would be cool if they meshed the traditional alignments with something like Nocturne's Reasons. Maybe have the divine leaders represent the Dark sides of Law and Chaos, while the human representatives err towards the Light. That way, you could pursue the alignment you want and either go all in on some twisted extremist world-view, or rebel against your own faction with the help of a friend to make it better.
I actually have an idea for an SMT game where the moral axis is divided along Light/Humanity/Dark lines rather than L/C/N. the idea itself is essentially "how can I make an SMT game as compelling as possible while maintaining moral ambiguity and creating a massive middle finger directed at the actual creators?"
@@WakkaMadeInYevon SMT has already done this actually, sorta , SMT: NINE was even named after this idea. Where the 3 alignments were separated into 9 different branches, each alignment getting a Light-Neutral-Dark. I think the Devil Survivor games dappled into this aswell, though I’m not exactly sure. I think it’s pretty unlikely that SMT would risk re exploring this idea in the mainline games, considering how poorly SMT: NINE did.
Absolutely amazing work Tony. Like I already had a chance to read your early script, but also getting to hear your final thoughts as a whole, on top of the incredible breakdown of every mainline ending, was all such a treat (and very easy to grasp) as someone who has yet to play all the SMT games. And once again, thanks so much for giving me this opportunity to join you for this video! Really glad this project turned out so well! 😄
I am explaining a bit more in my own comment, but I will say that your part in this video was indeed great, and I think Japan's history with Christianity and the fact that Ieyasu Tokugawa and the other Great Unifiers were Buddhist does drive home not just this series' apparent anti-Yahveh bias, but also the very Buddhist vibes that I always got from Nahobino and Aogami ever since the game's reveal. It just all comes together in a very interesting way.
The Light v. Dark alignment is incredibly underutilized (it’s used in what, two games?), but it’d be exactly what we need to fix the alignment system. Kind of like IV’s alignment grading system, but a lot more specific events will put you in a concrete alignment. So you could be a vigilante in a Light-Chaos route, a violent dictator in a Dark-Law route, selfishly remake the world in your image in Dark-Neutral, and so on. That way you could include more complex philosophies on top of fixing the “least awful route” problem some games have
Moral ambiguity is what makes this games interesting. The Idea that God is a dictator and a totalitarian, however all his promisses about salvation and eternal life are true makes a more complex and interesting situation. This is far more though provoking than "God evil".
issue the main lines keep coming out uninteresting, i haven't enjoyed main line since SMT3, 4 had lots of issues, 5 down right boring to get into, its chore to play first main line i ended dropping in few hours how slow it is
Cool video. Thanks to Lady Vergilia for the history lesson on Christianity in japan. I had read but a bit on it here and there, so I knew where this video was going, but I learnt new things too.
Nocturne's "reasons" seems like a right path for this. You won't be bound too much by the concept of alignments, yet you may be able to vaguely guess what alignments does the said reason possess. Not to mention, it was driven by human choice as well. My biggest gripe with mainline alignments is because other than neutral, law and chaos feels like a choice that you definitely need to choose and not because of the will of those involved. They made it impossible to 'stay human' when you chose law or chaos which is pretty weird considering neutral is pretty much turning the MC godlike yet still retaining his humanity.
i actually think the other way around. yeah, going for law is meant to shred your humanity to ascend into a "higher being", while chaos is the opposite, its shreding your humanity in order to become a beast of instinct. in other words, law would be to become an angel, and chaos to become a demon.
Agree. Even if I would honestly argue the reasons are all pretty fucking awful. I do think doing something different every now and then is a good idea.
The cultural bias explains a lot, but I think the best explanation is that they are simply taking things as givens and don't ask any questions. Like why is YHVH the strongest and why anyone would follow him before he was the undisputed victor? Further, maybe the gods of old deserved to have their divinity stripped from them for being massive jerks themselves. The fact he didn't destroy them when that was apparently on the table meant he understood they spoke to something essential, so instead he just put them in their place. And given the cosmic scale of events, there really needs to be a character to challenge the Japanese gods for being so petty and provincial as they seem content to let the universe burn as long as Japan is fine. As for satisfying endings, I think it was Alfred Hitchcock who said characters are how you get away with telling the same story over and over. So the alignment ends could end on an ambiguous note as far as the larger struggle, but by resolving character arcs the player could get some satisfaction. Just some thoughts.
I feel like depicting the japanese god in a somewhat bad light would take actually setting a game in another country, which i think even if they did they d only do so in a spinoff. Not saying it's a bad thing mind you but both persona and shin megami tensei have largely maintained themselves as pretty japanese(strange journey happen in the poles, but well the poles are more of a neutral space)
I think the dichotomy between the two neutral endings in SMT5 are reflected on a comment that Aogami makes around the middle of the story, in which he states that demon summoners who are too heavily involved with the matters of demons eventually lose sight of the issues of real people. Ironically the ending where you do the most quests with demons is the one where you can choose to erase the demons in favor of protecting humanity as a whole. Though I think it is important that you can also choose the normal neutral ending after doing all the quests, which points to this being a crossroads where the Nahobino is identified to have become attached to the demons or not. I guess they chose to present the choice this way with the factor of the Nahobino already being heavily involved with several demons' issues because it makes the choice to still choose humanity more impactful. It's also important to say that Aogami is probably biased when he first explains this, since in the secret neutral ending, he explains that it is the path he would have chosen (presumably if he wasn't fused with the kid already). Of course, most players glossed past this because it was explained fairly innocuously earlier in the story (a problem with the story in general) and because most people who got the true neutral ending (me included) simply chose it because they wanted to see the "true ending", ignoring the second choice between both neutral endings as "just some extra thing", so the overall feeling is just "why did I have to do the quests to get this ending?". Regardless I still appreciate that at least with this dynamic that there is not necessarily a better ending. I remember getting the secret neutral ending and really debating with myself if it really was a better outcome than the normal neutral ending.
I feel like mainline is just too stuck on the idea of the alignments always having to be the same themes. I wish we could get more outcomes of Chaos learning the strong can lead the weak without bloodshed and anarchy (Like SJR and Overclocked did), Law learns it doesn't need absolute control and brainwashing to teach people to be good to one another (Also like SJR/Overclocked) and Neutral learns to fully accept everyone has good and bad points and one should be free to do things however they wish instead of "I reject you all, now go home." And you can still have the villains just be extreme sides of the conflict who are going too far and have to be stopped. It's also REALLY hard to want to side with Law when they're always portrayed as completely pompous jerks on a power trip and God is shown as the biggest, worst jerk in each game. I'm not religious in any way but do we always have to make God out to be bad by default? We can't just have an angel that's a little too zealous in their goals and God says "Hey can you maybe get him to cut that out?" or something? I realize Lucifer is kinda like that but I mean more of a Mastema but crazier kinda thing. I also really really dislike how being nice and kind is always seen as Lawful, being a jerk is always chaos and being indifferent and apathetic is Neutral. Like you can't have it any other way.
On your last point, I really wish there were more characters like Dahn from Raidou 2. He at first, appears like a stereotypical Chaos hero. Brash, hot-headed, not giving a damn about societal norms... But he completely lacks the "THE STRONG SHALL THRIVE!!!"-mentality. And all of his actions are for the sake of saving his sister from a horrible fate, and when his plans end up failing big time. And end up causing a lot of unintended casualties... He ABSOLUTELY REGRETS it. Instead of rebeling in it.
Screw Law, Chaos and Neutral are 95% of the time the way to go. Humans have created God(s) and demons; they do not exist to be subjugated by one or the other! Rebellion will forevermore flow through human veins. YHVH is a self-righteous prick anyway, both biblically and in SMT.
I feel like you want all alignments to be absolutely good, from the examples you gave each alignment is good and there is no difference in choosing between them, I think the purpose of these alignments is that not one of them is all good or all bad they're always a mixture, Lawful is teaching people to be kind and nice to each other by brainwashing them and taking their free will, Chaos is survival of the strongest, and so on, the alignments being more gray than black and white and sort of hard to choose between them is I think purposeful.
@@alenezi989a3 but they aren't grey. with the exception of Neutrality, the alignments appear designed to be as unappealing as possible. heck, my personal headcanon is that the alignments are designed by the Great Will to be unappealing in order for humanity to herd themselves like sheep along the path that the Great Will has laid out for them.
My favourite Law Ending is probably Amanes Day 8 Ending in Devil Survivor Overclocked , since it's one of the endings where pretty much everyone is happy. It also helps that that DeSu is one of the few SMT's that doesen't portray YHVH as straight up evil.
Everyone is happy? Under OLD Testament YHVH? If that isn't the biggest farce of an ending I don't know what is. I enjoy the tearing apart of this ending that the other endings achieved, as I'm not a fan of the peace and equality bullshit.
@@haruhirogrimgar6047 YHVH gives humans a chance of proving themselves in 7 days, thats more than what he does in mainline. Also during the entire game, Remiel is there to help you and your group solve the lockdown. Remiel is one of the few angels in the franchise that actually help you solve the situation, he doesnt even mind you refusing to using Bel's power.
But it does. The throne is the prize and it's wills pit against each other. Dazai siding with Abdiel was because he had nothing and was convinced by her, he can be a force for change. Ren (or whatever his name was) is very pointless because he has no arc; he affiliates with Bethel because of his sister and has no growth beyond that. Tao was the chosen one to lead the Nahobino to rebuild the world. They fight you because your goals are different. You stand against Bethel if sided with Abdiel, against God if with them, against both if you mean to destroy the throne or demons themselves. It misses the tragic aspect of IV because you didn't bond with these people as much as you did with Walter, Jonathan and Isabeau.
I like Reasons in _Nocturne_ and the large variety of alignments in the _Devil Survivor_ games. Always felt that was the direction mainline games should've pursued. If the writers want to stick to Law-Neutral-Chaos, they should make all options equally appealing. But they rarely are. I think a lot of problems would be resolved by taking the _SMT Nine_ approach of fragmenting the alignments.
What I love about Nocturne's Freedom ending is the fact that it completely flips what Kagutsuchi claims at the beginning on its head. He claims that you have "not even a hint of Reason". But by refusing everyone's own desire to shape the world in their image and choosing to restore it, you prove him wrong in a sense. You not having a Reason fits with the idea of humanity as a whole, because many people don't have major ideologies or purpose either. So many people are just trying their best with the cards they were dealt and the lives they've carved for themselves. Giving Kagutsuchi the finger and effectively telling both him and Lucifer to piss off and leave the world to be shaped by human hands is perfect. No one person should be able to dictate the future of billions.
Weak though it was, I think you miss some of the points of V's routes for Law and Chaos. In many ways, they were similar to SJR's New Law and New Chaos ends. Abdiel and Dazai knew they would be defying the order set in place by YHVH, just as Zelenin does in New Law, but they make the sacrifice of being sinners to offer the world salvation. The Chaos route is in many ways the same outcome as New Chaos, the extra-normal beings dictated as "demons" by YHVH's order allowed to reclaim their position as the gods of old.
Yes I understand the slight nuance to Abdiel's decision, it just falls flat since she dies almost immediately and accomplishes close to nothing after coming to that decision. Chaos is more understandable in this game thought like I said the actual ending itself is disappointing
@@Tony4You While it is kind of...funny in a sad way how Abdiel dies immediately on the Law ending, I feel like the point hits harder on the other endings, where they display a willingness to break the taboo in order to have the power to stand against you.
Amazing video. Something that I've been thinking about regarding quote on quote "alignment" endings even in games outside of SMT is just how some options may seem biased towards is just how up to interpretation or open ended the ending can be; it's why I think OG Strange Journey endings don't have that sense of bias compared to the others since there's some degree of uncertainty in each ending.
Absolutely agree, a lot of endings diverge from characterization and story. Strange Journey will remain one of the few RPGs with almost perfect decision making
As a newcomer to SMT, I found your catalogue of the mainline games' endings to be very helpful. I will say that I do think that the endings in SMTV are hit or miss (at least in my opinion). I honestly really like the True Neutral ending. I think the Chaos one is okay, but Law and normal Neutral are pretty bad (especially the latter). I will admit my stance on the True Neutral ending has been in large part shaped by the biases of SMTV's story, which I really wish wasn't as strong. The other alignment reps could've been so much better in my opinion. Especially Law. Edit: also, I found the Freedom ending of SMTIII badass. It’s has a lot of the undertones that made me like the True Neutral ending of SMTV, but better executed if you ask me.
I'm curious what you don't like about Law. For most of the game, Law and True Neutral have the same motivations: Lahmu shows up, reveals how powerful Nahobinos are, kills a bunch of humans, and you barely stop him. For the rest of the game, both Law protagonist and True Neutral protagonist are trying to stop the rest of Bethel from turning into Nahobinos and plunging Earth into never-ending war. Chaos by contrast is perfectly fine with a new age of Nahobino as long as the player gets to be the strongest one, and that just sounds really evil and bleak to me
@@TheRoboKitty Yeah, but the angelic choirs treat you like trash for the entire game, saying that your existence as a Nahobino is a blasphemous one regardless of the fact that you're on their side. And they go out of their way to state in some dialogue that if humans have fallen pray to the monsters, they should just be killed on sight like they tried to do with Sahori during the demon raid on Tokyo. Plus there's the idea of humanity not needing to think for themselves, only show devotion through their faith. That doesn't sit right with me. I just see it as humans' individuality being completely erased in the name of security. Also, fair point about the Chaos route. That's something I never really considered when ranking the r rings. My main ire with the Chaos ending is the idea that "multiple gods are better than one" take made by the reps. YHVH is bad enough in my book, but multiple selfish gods waging war is equally absurd to me as a Neutral sympathizer.
@@jj_grabes Definitely some fair points on your end too. The part about the mercy kill never really phased me because the angels aren't so douche-y they actually want to do it. No, they understand that saving humans is the best result, and only advocate euthanasia if rescue is impossible (which in the case of Lahmu, it was impossible). But them treating the player like dirt? Yeah that does tie into Law's one genuine character flaw in this game: the angels are stuck in the past. Everyone else knows it's time for moving on. Even Law protagonist knows it's time to move on from the unsustainable truce of Bethel and reevaluate what it means to keep the peace
notice how he describes Strange Journey as something good, and blames Redux for painting it as evil... when the ORIGINAL version of game itself already shows how creepy and extreme the outcome is. Tony is lying to you, both Chaos and Law are Bad Endings in the classic original version of Strange Journey
one small gripe I've had with smt as a whole is the characterization of the main four angels. aside from a few minor differences and appearances their characters are basically just "holy holy worship god or things are gonna get gory!" here's how I would personally portray them. Michael: I'd say give him a bit or a tired war veteran vibe. years upon years of unending conflict leaves him tired, the losses he's seen snuffed out by the forces of chaos and order and his own hands makes crave for this war to finally end, and if they do succeed, he wishes for a world of no conflict. A world where no man slaughter one another, and for that he continues to fight for his god see that world realized. Gabriel: I'd probably give her sort of a mother and daughter dynamic with Maria. Fighting to see a world where Maria can know peace, where she can rest easy and live her life with her. guarding her from others and seeing that chaos does not succeed, and that God may create that world of peace and tranquility. Raphael: tldr: "we're angels we're meant to be expendable." "not to me." Uriel: I'm not fully sure what you could do with him, but perhapse incorperate the banishment of Adam and Eve into it in some way?
That's an interesting take, ngl. That also reminds me that we kinda got some individual characterization with at least Gabriel in SMT2. She was the only one of the Archangels who found out about the fake YHVH and was the only one of the four still alive at the end of the Law ending. She acknowledges that what YHVH was doing was wrong, then leaves. It's not a lot, but I found it interesting that she went off on her own. I want to say that I think she was also the only one who seems apprehensive about making a Messiah.
I personally view Uriel as the "youngest" of the Four Archangels, and imagine him as someone who seeks to prove his worth to God and his fellow angels.
I’m holding out hope for an SMT V deluxe/revision that expands on the story to fix pacing, and to explore chaos+neutral (perhaps by employing Tao or Miyazu better in the story to do so)
I wish they were utilized more in SMTV. I love Miyazu so much, and I feel she could have had more input in the Secret Ending considering her role in the Khonsu sidequest. And then the whole thing with Tao could have also been better. Like...maybe incorporating her better in one of the endings (maybe Law since she's technically Law aligned for some reason?).
Thank you for including a section regarding Japan and Christianity. It's very interesting how Law in SMT and the strongest characters in the series are associated with Abrahamic religions. The alignment system has so much potential for more depth, I would love to see more moral ambiguity in the different endings.
The problem is that a lot of them basically break down to: Law: “there are some situations where free will and freedom are bad” (objectively bad take) Chaos: “killing is fun and sticking it to the man rules” (objectively unhinged take) Neutral: “this is either the best parts of both of the other two philosophies…..or the worst parts” (either painfully obvious that it’s the ideal option, or it’s even worse than the prior two somehow)
The neutral case is even worse when you get a strange journey redux case that makes the neutral path seems completely pointless, as humanity never seems to learn their lesson, I'd much rather have it left up in the air, as in "We don't know if humanity will learn form their mistakes, but there is still hope..."
Thanks for the video man, I've been waiting for this! I'm personally aligned to Law but it seems very dirty how they write it in many of the alignments. It was a great video and the guest appearance from Lady Virginia was a freak addition I did not expected but welcome highly. I hope to see more from you in the future, and to a better Law representative in the next SMT
Fantastic video to both Tony and Virgilia. I was very into SMT V upon release, but after the honeymoon phase with the game I realized how shoddy the story was. Maybe it was the influence from other reviews I watched, like Marsh and Simply Dad’s. You seemed to note yourself how unfinished some characters’ arcs were in V’s story. Do you think they really told the story they wanted to in the final release? I can’t help but feel like coronavirus and the international release hampered the team’s ability to create what they had in mind. After watching breakdowns of SMT V’s development and story, I’ve also better framed my love for the game in terms of music and demon design. I just can’t help but feel like we lost the story we were meant to get somewhere in development hell.
Some interviews make it pretty clear that V's development was not smooth. Biggest example I can think of is how Hayatoro, the doggo demon that its meant to be a japanese counterpart to Cerberus. Was meant to have a much bigger role in the story.
Smt 5 has really good concepts but doesnt really execute them well. I feel the story ended being fine but with alot of wasted potential you can tell it had developement hell
Thanks for watching and enjoying! I completely agree with SMTV's story, it seems half finished at most. It was a honeymoon for me bigtime as it was the first game I got early for the channel and while I didn't sing it's praises publicly too much, I personally had a falling out of love with the game over the following months. It isn't a bad game by any means, just disappointing. Narrative wasn't their main priority, maybe not even their secondary or tertiary priority lol
@@kuraux56s59 Hayataro could have been an early concept, not necessarily cut content. I think Amanozako role in the story is the best example to use in this situation: her role in the story was expanded and changed when they were already recording the English voice acting, which usually happens at the end of the development of a game.
I think SMTV's Neutral and Secret should have been swapped. Something like this: Neutral: I destroy all demons, thinking it the only way to reject both God's Order and Tsukuyomi's anarchy. Secret: I learned through my quests that there is good in demons as well. In order to give everyone freedom, I opt to destroy the Throne.
An ending that deals directly with the demon invasion might be cool Law: offers protection/sanctuary from demons Chaos: seeks to live amongst and control demons Neutral: seeks to banish/destroy demons outright
Great video! Would love more nuanced alignments especially with Law in future games, though I admit I loved the Strange Journey Redux take where the new Law ending is a humanity-law focused alignment instead of going the same route other Law alignments do with the same God rules all focus. More options in games would always be great and it'd be nice to get to actually consider what ending I want without gravitating to neutral every time because the others are just so insane or off putting.
Wonderful video again! I always get anxious when I see SMT/Persona videos of this length but again you prove to be the cream of the crop and gave a very satisfying video. Wish I could have more. Having this play on my phone while playing elden ring was a comfy mood.
Thanks so much! I try to be as straight forward as possible in my videos, but this was the first video in a long time that was almost fully my opinions. I'm so happy people are enjoying it and hope to make more in this style
YHVH is not ruthless cause he "hates humanity" but more like one who is "ruthlessly and extremely lawful". They just removed his "benevolent" moniker which is actually fitting. Other than that not considering SMT IV gray ending and considering SMT III reasons "lawful" did increase the number of "bad endings" assigned to law.
Honestly, as much as I appreciate the idea of not portraying God as wholly good (Mainly due to the West being very apprehensive to ever paint God in a different light), I do actually agree that making him wholly totalitarian is sad. I want an SMT game where God genuinely is a good entity, one looking out for humanity and trying to help people in the way he believes best. I don't believe God would kill people for simply not believing in him, or even worse yet, for simply existing somewhere. Imagine SMT4 but instead of Merkabah straight up killing everyone, they work to 'cleanse' the filth away from Tokyo. Flynn and Jonathan work to spread the idea of mercy and togetherness. They work to stop anarchistic demons from outwardly causing havoc, all the while still emphasizing the idea of a holy kingdom which would still drive Walter away due to his biases born from an unjust caste system. Eventually it would end with Mikado and Tokyo merging together and following the Order of God in ways that benefit others. Imagine SMT4A where you go to fight God and instead of threatening you incessantly and throwing empty words at you, he genuinely attempts to make you understand his position and only fights back because you are actively attacking him. It can still end with his defeat, but with an emphasis on his forgiveness of your folly, of his love for you despite your wrongdoings and that if mankind shows it cannot handle the burden of a universe all its own, he would return to help guide them once again. Im not saying Law needs to be overwhelmingly great comparatively, but I do think we should have some semblance of good feelings when going the Law route.
I know this won't happen, but I would love if SMT 6 went real hard on alignment routes and make a lock like 25% in and the rest of the game be drastically different depending on your alignment. I'm also really fucking sick of these games having an ending that has more content than others.
While this sounds like a cool idea on paper, if you actually had to code such a game you'd quickly find it a herculean task. Imagine for a moment essentially making 3 entirely different games for a single release. It would be a logistical nightmare.
I think locking chaos/neutral/law at 25% and then having the rest of the game being what kind of chaos/neutrality/law you want is a pretty interesting idea. If you go this route if you could you end up fighting people from your own alignment who's ideal form of chaos/neutrality/law differs.
The Neutral Bias for SMT IV is so bad that the plot of SMT IV Apocalypse is the idea that your interference as Nanashi by him basically becoming what is seen as in SMT V as Nahobino is what causes there to *not* be a Neutral ending. So the Flynn of that timeline would've done the Neutral Ending if you didn't interfere and work with either Vishnu or Dagda.
This was a great analysis and I mostly agree with everything said here though I do disagree in some areas, SMT3 Neutral Freedom: I don't really consider it going against God considering that as Kagutsuchi himself notes, its the option The Great Will himself chose before and the choice still is part of the cycle of rebirth, albeit a reset. SMTSJ Law: While I do also dislike the new ending, especially making Mastema a enemy, (though to be fair Chaos did reveal he wasn't really on Heaven's side and was instead motivated by a desire to achieve a form higher than the other angels) I disagree with everything said about YHVH. Sheinkah while a fellow avatar, is not YHVH and instead usurped his position so she could rule. You can do a sidequest in new game plus where you can either free YHVH who in this game has been split into Metatron and Demiurge or reseal him under the command of a mysterious female voice. (who could be either Mem Aleph or Sheinkah) If freed this version of YHVH is the one of his rare benevolent incarnations and actively joins you if Law (allowing you to have a YHVH vs Sheinkah fight) or just says he'll protect humanity if Neutral. SMTIV Law: I'm honestly confused as I saw almost none of this from my playthourgh of Law. (though I do agree that the Law choices don't sync up with the alignment lock, going from moral and life persevering to the lock's Utilitarianism) The angels did not create the caste system (It was Aquila) and once freed do away with it the first chance they get, with the support of the majority of the population (who are neither brainwashed nor fearful) of Mikado. (the exception being a few Luxors who don't want to lose their power and are dealt with when they try to rebel) Along with a plan to bring up some tech from Tokyo, (which succeeds if you do the side quest) originally there was a plan to save some people from Tokyo according to Merkabath but Walter under the command of Lilith opened the Expanse, causing the already demon infested Tokyo hit critical mass, which if not taken care of quickly would break into the completely demon free Mikado. Flynn and Merkabah allow themselves to be killed because of the genocide they recently committed, while the rest of the angels depart Mikado to allow humans to rule themselves, with the ending outright showing a everlasting actual utopia, unlike SMT1's hope for a better future or SJ's required brainwashing. On a side note, a another criticism I personally have with Law is that group as a whole is based around Utilitarianism, which not only has no connection with Christianity, seems to be the main cause of the majority of problems everyone has with the Law alignment.
Woah, I didn't know about that sidequest, and I was planning to do a Law NG+ playthrough of SJR later this year. What's the quest called? Also, I think the utilitarianism is based on Old Testament stories like Noah's Arc, where God literally wiped out almost all of humanity.
@@ltb1345 (From the Wiki) False god in chains Availability: After completing EX Mission The mother goddess' gravestone, Metatron will issue this EX Mission. How to complete: Find and destroy Demiurge in Grus B4F. You need Enemy Search C to be able to fight him. Reward: Chakra Elixir and Demiurge fusion; if in Law path, possibility to let a Demiurge join you The mother goddess' gravestone Availability: On Grus' Sanctum A, a door is guarded by a Power. On a New Game+, the Power will be gone and a Strike Team member will be in his place. After completing Jack's Squad Pacification mission, talk to him. How to complete: Find and destroy Alilat in Grus 1F, by heading through the doorway the crewman is standing by. You need Unlock E to even open the door and begin exploring. Reward: Nabatea Stone forma (creates Scanning Zero or Columbus Sub-App) and unlocks Alilat fusion I hope you have fun!
My issue with law is always the Christian-theming. The only time I have been tempted towards law is Devil Survivor 2 with Ronaldo making a utilitarian argument completely unrelated to christianity. Generally I am a utilitarian "losing negative freedoms is worth gaining positive freedoms" type of guy. But fck Yaweh and anything related to him.
I think the connection between Christianity and utilitarianism is clear. If God really is all knowing, all powerful, and knows the exact solution to any possible problem, then the only surefire way get ultimate peace and prosperity in the most efficient way would be to follow God's word to a T. Essentially giving up any choices you could have made to God. It's just the logical outcome to a perfect leader that knows the answer to literally everything.
that bit about how "the Law choices don't sync up with the alignment lock, going from moral and life persevering to the lock's Utilitarianism" is something that's always stood out to me in the series as a whole, like when you make decisions the kind, merciful, and peaceful options almost always give you points towards Law, but then when you get to the endgame it's all genocide and mind control. It's like the games abruptly swap from "God according to Sunday School" to "God according to r/atheism"
There's a lot to unpack here, but one thing I find interesting re: Lady's section. The Japanese loanword for Christianity when it was first introduced was "kirishitan", written in kanji as 吉利支丹 (luck-benefit-support-red earth (?) not sure on the last one). Once the Shogunate persecuted it, it started being written as 鬼理死丹 ("oni ideology death earth") or 切死丹 ("sever death earth"). Kanji languages have this unique way to add bias to words that you don't get in western languages, I've heard of other examples such as certain Chinese tribes having their names written with the "dog" radical at one point in history. Alignments are interesting in theory but often are dragged down by the writers' biases. But in general I find that every individual has such different views of what "Law" and "Chaos" actually are that it's impossible to write for them well as bias will ALWAYS get in the way. I can even see this in the comments with how differently people here view Law and Chaos. For me personally, they can be summed up as "Put the needs of others over yourself" vs "Emphasise personal freedom over the needs of others.", with their extremes devolving into something resembling Communism and Fascism respectively, but that's not how a lot of people see it given how much Law is equated with Fascism and Chaos with "pure freedom with no downsides." I don't know how much of this is due to my upbringing, as I've heard Australian culture is considered to value egalitarianism and is not as staunchly freedom-focused as the US (we're definitely western and individualistic, but not very anti-authoritarian).
@@kuraux56s59 There's quite a long history of it too. I find it interesting as someone who's studied language, and also very sad of course. Western languages have slurs but they're often their own words. While with Kanji, you can turn something into a slur and still have it pronounced the same way through character choice.
@@BigKlingy Indeed. And its pretty twisted, seriously. Whoever came up with the idea of using Kanjis in such a mocking manner... I hope they got their just desserts in whatever afterlife they are in.
The thing that strikes a chord with me about even some of SMT's more critical portrayals of the law alignment isn't just "religion=bad", which may seem to be the core idea of many entries, but that can also be a surface-level interpretation of something deeper. The series has stated a few times that the gods and demons seen in the games arise from mankind's many facets and desires, which is why many of the most powerful figures can never seem to be defeated once and for all. Thus, the incarnations of YHVH seen in SMT are also beings that reflect an aspect of humanity. I view the games in which the big man Himself is simply not present-or not in a way that's obvious-as some of the most compelling for this reason. In SMTIV, the archangels and their order are definitely shown to be comically hostile and merciless, but this works when they only CLAIM to serve the interests of God, who remains suspiciously absent. God is alluded to, but is never seen or confirmed to be in His true form with the player's own eyes. In the chaos and neutral endings, you don't have the honor of fighting Him, but rather, a messenger of dubious nature. For that reason, I see IV's depiction of law as a great showcase of the dangers of fundamentalism, which can lead to mere mortals developing their own god complexes. Then I have plenty of issues with Apocalypse's story, and of course "you're cool dude who gets to face off with THE God this time!" is undeniably fan service, but even that doesn't come off as too cheesy to me. Nanashi and Flynn are plainly referred to as Messiahs, who are sent by none other than the Great Will to overthrow the doctrine implied to be a reflection of some humans' desires. So that manages to continue at least some of the concepts found in the original IV, albeit with much more spectacle than elegance. Persona 3 may take the role as the most obvious "Christian video game", but the subtext can certainly be found in mainline SMT as well, which many fans may not be ready to really see when the series has garnered such a reputation for some seemingly superficial edge.
SMT V does have another interesting take on Law or Chaos early on in the game. You have the choice between Apsara who's stated goal is to protect weaker demons but stunts their ability to grow. Or Leanan, who's stated goal is to build up weaker demons into something that can function in the world on their own. They claim each other are bad for the demons under their care so it's up to the player to decide which they value more. Security or independance.
"I'm not implying that the Abrahamic God of real life and YHVH of SMT are interchangeable. Of course they aren't, this is a video game with it's own lore." Thank you for that, I agree.
YHVH, ywhach, god of Christianity, islam, and Judaism are all the same thing, the bible is the same just modified slightly between the three religions.
@@gejamugamlatsoomanam7716 They are not the same. Christianity is an extension of Judaism, but modern day Judaism rejects Christianity by rejecting anything that happened in the New Testament. Islam is Muhammad's twisting of Biblical stories he heard when he visited Israel, saw how powerful Christianity was at gaining followers, and wanted that same power for himself.
@@DRYstudios1994 It depends. The implementation of the god figure in the three Abrahamic religions differs, but as they all go off the Torah/Old Testament as an origin the described personality traits of the supreme being are identical. The NT does not really change this interpretation, it simply makes God more 'inaccessible' and focuses more on Jesus and (to a lesser extent) prophets. Overall, he is fairly consistent (omni and scriptural contradictions aside).
Great video. It really sheds a light on why the law alignment in SMT is always portrayed the way that it is. It also helps with understanding why they went with the themes of polytheism vs. monotheism for SMT V, as it is a more interesting topic in a region where Christianity isn't the de facto religion. The story is still deeply unsatisfying, but the endings do give people with a mix of different opinions at least one ending they'll be satisfied with.
Associating YHVH with the law route is a bad idea to begin with. It makes sense on paper, god being the embodiment of law in Abrahamic religions, but it results in all kinds of contradictions unless you make law the default 'good' ending. I've always figured the routes have nothing to do with good or evil, rather: Law = total order at the cost of individualism; Choas = ultimate freedom at the cost of empathy; Neutral = The middle road, or humanity at its core. With all flaws and beauty kept as is. I love this breakdown, and it's really nice to get a bit of context with the Japanese history. It seems I view the series as a whole in a completely different way, which has made me look back at some of it in a new light. This could be an amazing discussion in a lot of ways. Thanks!
I have always had a Chaos bias despite the issues present in it (such as the survival of the fittest, easy means to suppress humans, etc). One game I actually like this in is IV, not because Lucifer himself is necessarily appealing, but because I felt Chaos Akira had a better chance at creating a truly equal and fair world for everyone than Law Akira or the Neutral route. It just felt like a world where, sure, there may be a great deal of chaos and uncertainty for a while, but such freedom also grants the potential for an individual who will truly unite and work toward a world of peace to exist someday. And when it comes to ideal worlds, you have to think beyond your scope.
Issues... More like reasons why Chaos will always be better than Law. Only the foolish believe that they can change the world. Survival of the fittest is merely an objective feature of humanity. I refuse to bow down to any god, nor would I coexist with idealistic fools like Akira. I'd rather focus on myself and my own freedom than bother saving a fleshbag.
I loved all the routes on SMTIV and I'd even go as far to say it's my second favorite in the series after SMTII. It helped that the story, music, demon designs, etc were all great. SMTIV was the reason I purchased a 3DS and I didn't regret that purchase. I probably put around 800 hours in that game and a solid 500 in Apocalypse. I enjoyed SMTIII as well but I'd say SMTII is my favorite followed by SMTIV, and then SMTIII as my top three.
Great video. I myself have a bias against law because of how Yahweh and the biblical teachings was portrayed to me in my Catholic/Christian upbringing and found it deplorable. Interesting to see how culture plays a role in how religions are portrayed in media.
Most law endings bring Heaven on Earth. I, at first, was like you in that regard, but my favorite political ideologies became fascism and monarchy. Overall, at this point God is executing judgement on those who did not receive Him. God has three aspects to Him: Judgement, Mercy, and Grace. The grace and mercy period has passed, and now final judgement shall pour upon those who did not accept Him. Overall, The Most High governs over all thing and He is King.
@@jasonenns5076 Then you should know you worship a jewish god within a zionist religion, created to control us. We HAVE to return to our roots spiritually.
Don't worry about it man, Modern Catholics and Christians don't even know what they are saying anyways, Due to how much they have corrupted the bible to fit their own twisted narratives and hatred towards anything they don't like
Another great video. You made some great points about all of the games. I think SMT V's hidden ending is my favorite. Beating back the demons and angels to protect humanity is one of my favorite parts about the series. Creating a world for humans, and nothing more, without gods and deities getting in the way. I do think it is weird how the requirement for the ending where you wipe out all demons and gods was doing the side quests that involve helping the nicer demons though (except for Shiva)
How weird it is to get it aside, I can totally see why someone would like it. Like I said in the video it has the most finality and closure to it which is very rewarding
@@Tony4You I felt that the weirdness in how to get that ending is was neglected. For example, you have to do Amanozako's questline. After that, you decide to kill her to create the world for humans. You also help Miyazu and Khonsu find demon-human love, just to kill him too. I think that the consequences for the hidden ending should have these parties beg for their lives, which would add some hesitation to that final decision. Imagine Amanozako crying and begging for her life. Imagine Miyazu crying and begging for Khonsu's life. Choosing that ending would be a MUCH more difficult decision with input from the demons who don't wish to die. Imagine their arguments: committing demon genocide in order to create the world for humans only. Honestly, I'd probably prefer a different ending if the game did this.
There's one thing about SMT 1 that still bothers me to this day. Considering God's interpretations throughout all of the SMT series, the intro to the first one always baffles me. After naming your character and dividing up your stat points God gives you a very clear objective: "Beyond this door, both those chosen by God that follow the path of Law and Order, and those that rely on their own power that follow the path of competition and Chaos await you. Be careful not to tip the balance between the two as you proceed..." I don't know if its due to the English translation of the game or what, but its such a clear contradiction of the way he's portrayed in later titles. Hell its a contradiction to his characterization in Megami Tensei 2 as well. Why would the head of the Law faction encourage you down the Neutral path? Maybe that's not God talking to you? Despite being depicted like him in every other game, the game never does specify if that's God or not. I don't know if I'm missing something or I'm overthinking it, but this has always bugged me.
Very interesting. It's hard to understand why, but I never thought the voice in the beginning was God. I always thought it was a proto great will (developer voice) speaking to you. If it is God it's a very understanding God lol
@@beanieboi7743 If it is the great will, then I find it interesting that it would bare a likeness to God in SMT. Or is it potentially, the other way around?
That dream sequence in general was never explained lol, why was heroine about to be sacrificed and why was law hero on the cross and chaos hero with a demon
I really like how Neutral works in both SMTIV and SMT Strange Journey. Neutrality could come from different points of view. Either you don't care (White Ending), you do not understand the conflict enough or aren't trully sure of what to choose (Isabeau as a Character, and Demon Ending on SMT3) or total willingles to keep figthing by yourself, in a battle that you don't even know that when or even, can be won (Freedom Ending in SMT3, and how ambigous the SMTIV neutral ending is).
I've seen arguments that Nyx and Izanami from Personas 3 and 4 are examples of 'bad neutral', since they're representations of apathy and wilful ignorance respectively
I played P3 long ago so I dont remember much of the motivation on Nyx. But I would put Izanami more on a law term. I think her approach is pretty similar to Yaldabaoth (this one way more on the end of the spectrum tho), although applied in a different way. I.e. a greater force/deity forcing "humanity desire" into people, apart from conflict and problems, basically to live peaceful here-and-after (via apathy and via alienation respectively).
@@hikarikyuubi3906 Nyx is essentially a force of nature that accepts the darkest desires of humanity (nihilism), and thus aims to fulfill those desires - and Ryoji/Death is the catalyst for this
@@ltb1345 I personally love the Jank. It gives it a certain surreal atmosphere, that could never be replicated with modern videogames with barely any limitations present. The "arealism" of most places just being very low detail wallpapers pasted over and over makes it feel somewhat dreamlike.
I disagree with SMT4's chaos ending being a bait and switch. it was pretty heavily foreshadowed with blasted tokyo/infernal tokyo how law and chaos both start out as hopeful ideologies (with each version of tokyo's respective akira genuinely wishing to better the world through either law or chaos as a reaction to what alignment destroyed tokyo), but that they have pretty grim outcomes when taken to their extremes. We see this progression in both the law and chaos routes. Law starts out being about preserving the peace of mikado, and ends with genocide of tokyo to get rid of god's enemies. Chaos starts out being about judging people through merit and fighting oppression, and ends with the eternal power struggle of anarcho monarchism. While it may seem sudden (since the route split is so late in the game), i feel as though the ending presented in the chaos route is simply the logical extreme of that ideology. SMT4 as a whole i feel makes a pretty powerful statement about the dangers of ideological extremes, with three out of the four endings being pretty objectively bad endings. This comes at the cost of a more interesting alignment choice though, i agree.
This was an amazing video, Tony! Great job and well worth the wait! The alignment system in SMT (both mainline and spin-off) are one of my favorite aspects of the games. You get to decide how the world should change based on your beliefs and the people that you ally yourself with in order to achieve that change. Yet I agree with you, sadly many of the endings in the main SMT games have heavy biases that end up taking away from that type of choice. Like, realistically if I were in these situations, I would end up siding with the Law alignment because ultimately I want people to be safe and to live in peace. Many people do not deserve to suffer, and it makes me sad to see that the worst suffering comes from other people and especially the people who are supposed to keep us safe. So to see me making choices in these games that I think will protect even the most helpless, only to get jebaited when it turns out the God who's supposed to bring that salvation is a tyrant who wants nothing but subservience and the destruction of his detractors in exchange for that peace just does not sit right with me at all. Chaos sometimes appeals to me when it allows people to have freedom without having to completely dissolve into a horrific "might makes right" mentality, but several ends (especially IV's Chaos ending) just kinda leaves me with a bad taste as well. It's for those reasons that I tend to prefer Neutral, but even I can see how short-sighted some of the endings can seem. Also, I loved LadyVirgilia's segment on Christianity in Japan. Christianity in Japan is such an interesting topic because how differently the introduction of Christianity ended up playing out. I'll admit, I didn't know a whole lot about this topic save for the little I found out when researching Amakusa Shiro Tokisada (which btw Tony you should make a video on as this pertains to what LadyVirgilia had talked about in this video's segment), and also because I have a largely Western look on Christianity. I grew up in a Mexican Catholic family and currently live in Utah, who's major religion is Mormonism (and boy howdy do I hate so much about the LDS church...it is not pleasant....), so my view on Christianity is influenced a lot by that upbringing and where I currently live. I've seen and heard about how Religion was used to subjugate native peoples by suppressing their own religion without truly understanding their culture, or how religious laws can often oppress others who do not follow that particular religion. It's a part of that history that is hard to process sometimes, but shouldn't be ignored. Hearing a scenario where that didn't play out, but unfortunately also ended up badly for the people who practiced that religion is pretty eye opening. Religion and its relationships to both the cultures it originated it and the cultures it was introduced in is a very complicated subject, but it's one that I think many people need to understand. Especially in SMT's case when it straight up uses the names of various deities and the Abrahamic God. I hope that maybe one day the writers for SMT6 or whatever can maybe get the input from an outside perspective on alignments, especially Law. It would definitely give a lot of nuance to all alignment endings and hopefully make it feel like you could realistically choose any ending that won't completely go against your ideals. Law without complete subservience, Chaos without the survival and subjugation, and Neutral where you truly can feel like humanity can be autonomous. All with compelling characterization for the characters representing those alignments; human and demon alike.... A person could dream............
I doubt Atlus will give Law any more respect than V, considering the collectivist society that they live in. Realistically all routes have flaws, though Chaos/Neutral are simply the representations of human nature meanwhile Law pertains to this belief that humans are all equal: they're not. There is no such thing as peace and equality among beings such as gods. YAHVH himself proves this
I'm glad someone else actually likes the normal neutral ending in smt 5 besides me, just feels like no one cares about mainly because true neutral exist and is harder to get. I like it more then true neutral because just erasing the demon problem and reverting back to how things where does not seem to give more room for humanity to grow compared to humanity trying to find it's way despite the demons and now no longer having a threat of a god taking the throne and shaping the world (while I do wish you got another boss fight like the other 3 endings, if they really don't want you to destroy the throne they should make a better attempt at actually stopping you) Law always being bad is really annoying as they usually are either kill everyone or brainwash everyone or a combination of the 2 so it's kind of predictable. The actual ending to law in smt 5 I think was better then chaos but yeah the story is all over the place, law is at its best when it's as far removed from yhvh as possible. I think the only law route in smt game I chose as my ending was devil survivor 1 it was one of my first smt games and is still one of my favorites
Chaos/Neutral is merely the acceptance of human nature. Law believes in farces like equality and peace, although humans, demons, even angels themselves weren't created equal. And never WILL be. Humans must accept the world as is, although they may change paradigms, methods and ideals. It seems the ideology of Chaos/Neutral are more suited towards individuals rather than authority, which I enjoy more than any future ideals Law has to offer
@@anayos6726I don't think a chance to develop humanity's "potential" is worth an eternity of suffering and conflict. I don't like Law as much as I seem to, but I vastly prefer it over the alternative. Chaos is barbaric and modern Neutral is the epitome of self-worship, which leads to pride, arrogance, and the exact same series of events that led to God's intervention in the first place.
At the same time you could potentially argue that the plan to kill all of the below Tokyo is an act of God's mercy due to realizing how miserable everyone is. Though this is a heavily devils advocate position.
One major point I wanted to respond to: The very nomenclature of the "YHVH alignment" as "law" indicates authoritarianism, at least in some sense, as its focus. I don't find a bias towards or against authoritarianism to be surprising or necessarily reflective of a bias for/against any particular religion, in which case maybe the problem you're identifying isn't that law is commonly the worst alignment - it's the persistent depiction of the Abrahamic God as the focal point of law/authoritarianism, in which case that might be an artifact of the mythos' choice to adopt Abrahamic religion as the dominant religious backdrop in most of the games (at least, the one standing above other religions in power). The SMT3 analysis is particularly interesting in this regard - you identified Musubi as the "truest essence of law" with everyone becoming their own creator, when I think others might see that as the "truest essence of chaos/freedom" - everyone getting to live in their own world with absolute freedom. In contrast to Shijima, it does not have the authoritarian note of coercing uniformity, and it's unusual to call it "law" since while everyone can form their own rules in their own worlds, those are not really "law" - there are no true beings in those worlds to be bound by such "law" except the world's creator, who is not bound.
I lover Law in SMTV, but like I said only the ending proper really hits home for me lol. Still a great interpretation, sad that only after YHVH is dead is he portrayed well
@@Tony4You I want YHVH to come back and reclaim His throne. He is the only one I would follow in SMT. I went Law in SMT1 from the very beginning and had angels in my team, so I am proud of myself.
I'd love a follow up video where you dissect some of the spinoffs where you feel alignments were done better. If only because the world needs more Devil Survivor praise.
I'm honestly okay with this. It also separated the 'real' Law ending from the Law FACTION, and you still fight Dazai and Abdiel even on the New Law route.
The one thing I liked about SMTV's Law is the denialism showed by Abdiel, the "YHVH's totally not dead! He will eventually solve all of this! This huge problem you're all so afraid of totally isn't real!" It perfectly encapsulates the same mentality you see many modern religious nuts use in the face of big crises like the pandemic and climate change. Issue is in terms of appeal, it really doesn't help persuade you to side with Law at all. Since it shows how ignorant and irresponsible the Law faction is without any real merits to back it up. Dazai's character being based around "hey someone please make all the decisions for me!" doesn't make it any more convincing either. Not to mention as exactly as shown in SMTV, you literally cannot keep such kind of character viable into the end game, where it became undeniable that YHVH's dead and Abdiel and Dazai *has to make a decision for themselves,* especially when that decision comes in the form of them breaking YHVH's own law. It shows that Law is hypocritical and the rules are only to be followed when it suits them.
Personally, I like the chaos ending in SMTV, just because it points out the downsides of your choice well. Having and ending where you feel both fulfilled, but know that doing what you did caused something else, is something that I think is important. It makes you really think whether what your doing is worth the endless warring or removal of free will etc.
I can understand liking chaos in SMTV, most of my friends picked that ending. Having the pros and cons explained makes it feel more realistic and as you say fulfilling.
I don't find Chaos' cons to be all that damning compared to Law, I'd prefer endless warring over these pompous douchebags because at least you can do what you want.
This video pretty much sums up why I almost never choose the Law routes. The question of "Is losing free will and all potential for human advancement in exchange for eternal peace worth it?" Is an interesting one...but my answer is No, so that basically nullifies any interest in picking most Law routes. Shouldn't Law strive to restore the status quo? Return to the old world with no demons and with YHVH watching over humanity? And even as a Chaos advocate, this video made me realize that Lucifer generally just seems to be against YHVH and in favor of freedom for all...so why do Chaos endings always end in death and destruction? It's kind of disappointing that at this point when I boot up an SMT game, I'm already telling myself that I'm going for Chaos first, then Neutral and then Law just for completion sake because I just already know Law will be the least appealing option to me.
Yea the alignment and rep kinda messes with the worth of the alignment system. With chaos almost always ending as destruction kinda goes against lucifer who in most games champions freedom, which is why their should be variations on each alignment showing the potential ways it can go as chaos can depending how things go can create a great prosperous world but with the threat of potentially falling due to the grand freedom. Law could even go for a angle of potentially having no complete peace but great peace and freedom but laws keep people in check but laws are more flexible and isnt just about punishment. Really i think main issue is the way the routes are framed
I kind of see why Law is almost always depicted in a negative way in SMT, how Christianity co-oped icons of local mythologies and smaller religions and turns them into demons or servants of the lord. There's the old testament where God was quite brutal. And as said in the video missionaries converted some of the population as a prelude to invasion. And finally, the crunch and its members can be quite corrupt and abusive with their power.
In smt lore, god is a jerk, he banished lilith just because she wanted equality with adam, banished adam and eve just because they gained knowledge and stopped being mindless drones like all the angels (except lucifer), brought the flood to kill all humans except noah and select few just because he could.
This is apt, Christianity has stolen things from all over the world in the past. It has justified killing in the name of god and simply no believing in the god can get you sent to hell. Things like the book of Job show how it relies on Christians not knowing the truth. Had Job known the truth about Satan being given Permission from God to be tortured to prove to Satan Job was faithful... Job would've lost his faith.
I'm largely a Chaos player when it comes to SMT so I tend to have a strong bias toward those endings, but some of the other endings can be interesting as well. On that note, I have a very different take on the Chaos ending from SMT V and I think it is the only positive ending in the game. Here is a comment I had written previously on the ending that had been pretty well-received, so I'll share it again in case anyone would like an alternate interpretation of it: "This is the only ending in the game that I like. The conflict that comes immediately is not something that will necessarily go on for eternity. The world created in this ending is one where the potential for things to get better exists, but it is up to those participating in it to make that potential manifest. Under God's world of an imposed artificial order, that order came at the price of the potential for growth for humans, demons, and gods. While the birth of the world of potential may seem messy, it also provides the opportunity for all beings to grow and become something better if they can find a way to reduce that conflict and learn to live with each other. Even if that chance isn't the greatest while gods are in conflict with one another, it is at least possible in this world while it was impossible within God's world. That potential all depends on whether gods, demons, and humans are willing to grow up. If they don't, then they don't deserve the potential that is possible for them to have. Why I think this is better than the 'true neutral' ending is that this ending provides the opportunity for gods to be reunited with their Knowledge and that provides them with the resources to potentially have the perspective to guide humans and demons toward growth. Humans alone lack that information on the nature of reality and their growth would be much more slow as a result. This of course then puts the burden of the actualization of that potential upon the gods. If the Nahobino found a way to end the Mandala System, then that would at least reduce the incentive in one way in which gods compete with one another for power. Should the gods that desire progress unite against those who want to act like barbarian warlords, then the possibility for reaching that potential will greatly increase. They should ideally also learn what not to do from God's example and realize imposing an artificial order for the sake of order will also remove the potential for growth for all things and will require authoritarianism to uphold that order. So even if the chances for true growth seem small, at least they are a possibility in this ending. It would likely take a great deal of time for things to get better, but at least it remains as a possibility. After all, it was partially through the huge blow to the infrastructure upholding the order of the Middle Ages caused by the Black Plague that allowed for the innovations of the Renaissance to be possible and the process of revolution generally comes in the form of struggle. As Nietzsche said in Thus Spoke Zarathustra 'I say unto you: one must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. I say unto you: you still have chaos in yourselves.' Lucifer seemed to understand this very well."
while I admire the effort and dedication needed to type this whole thing out twice in a row, as someone who vehemently disagrees with Nietzsche and has zero faith in mankind's potential let alone that of the false gods, I can't help but disagree.
I chime in with the simple fact that, the result of the True Neutral ending is what’s actually the reality of the world outside the game. There are no gods and monsters in existence. Yet humans still have beliefs, conflicts, progress and detriments. I do think the existence of awesome being would be neat, but humans lacking understanding of reality is the very reason why they strive to achieve progress. In only a few centuries, humans have grown massively from what they were before. Even now the existence of devices like these came wholly into being in the blink of an eye. Slow? Perhaps in the zoomed out view. Then again, humans have been progressing since they first emerged on the evolutionary cycle. Plus, you - the Nahobino - still exist separately from your mortal self in the True Neutral ending. The Mandala System interrupted and altered by your interference. Except, it can’t fulfill your creation since to do that, it would have to write itself of existence and basically retcon the universe from Point Zero. All you’re doing in the TN is preserving mankind so they may live in safety and freedom until things break once more by the System. (That said, while I got TN first, I think Chaos just in general sounds cool since all the gods get to be real and tangible presences).
@@cyndronix6785 I would say that saying that humans have been constantly progressing is an overly optimistic view. Humans have gone through social and technological regression many times throughout history, just look at how the classical West was killed by the forces that brought about the Dark Ages. There is technology from the ancient world that was advanced to the point where modern humans can't understand how it works or come close to replicating it. The True Neutral Ending is the most bleak ending in the game. The Nahobino betrays his allies and commits genocide only to provide a brief break from conflict only to leave humans ignorant and weak for when the inevitable conflict comes. There are many worlds and universes in the SMT cosmos and it is only a matter of time before demons and gods make their way into the Nahobino's world again. So his effort will not only not achieve what he sought to do, but it will make things much worse in the future. He has probably actually doomed humanity to extinction in the future without realizing it. The Nahobino's actions in this ending goes back to my earlier statement about social and technological regression. In SMT, having demons and gods around is part of the natural state of things and they also possess knowledge and abilities that humans lack but could potentially benefit from. This brings a huge potential for progress and this is the kind of reality that Lucifer had been fighting to bring back throughout the SMT series. That is why he always stressed bringing about a world of potential, so all living things have the potential to grow, thrive, and progress. In the Chaos ending of SMT V, the Nahobino continues Lucifer's plan and returns things to their natural state. The conflict that happens is the conflict that will inevitably happen in any of the endings, but in this ending it is addressed head on so that things can improve after that conflict. Some might think different gods, demons, and humans finding a way to work together for mutual benefit and find a way to peacefully exist for the most part is impossible in SMT, but this actually happens in the Chaos ending of SMT II, which is the most postive, morally good, and happy ending in the entire series. So the conflict that comes is to remove those who would be obstacles to that goal much like God had to be removed because he was the main obstacle to creating such a world because it would not allow him to have absolute power. So this is one of the reasons why the Chaos ending of SMT V is the only one in which a much better future has a real chance of becoming a reality. While I do think it is unfortunate that the True Neutral ending will probably be considered the canon ending of SMT V, it would leave an interesting possibility for the Nahobino to show up in future SMT games as a tragic figure who is cursed with immortality and must forever live with the guilt of what he had done as well as how he doomed the very humans he was attempting to save. Maybe he could go insane from this or perhaps attempt to help another SMT protagonist to make sure that character doesn't make the same mistakes that he did.
@@ophidianmind333 Thinking humans constantly progressing is optimistic is completely wrong. It's a nice perspective that you think so - which if you don't mind, I believe is telling you're a good and cautious person - but it isn't at all optimistic. Humans choosing to destroy technological and social progress doesn't mean they're regressing as humans. They're still advancing because unlike before, they have a new ground level to start from. By that I mean, the starting line isn't at sticks and stones. Progress is and will always be progress. Whether the steps are minuscule or grand. I never said the Chaos ending was bad or not a happy ending, since I think it is. It just isn't the most pragmatic long-term solution. In order for other deities to breach Earth, they'd need to circumvent the new laws of reality and the Creator God, Nahobino protecting humanity. Given the Nahobino's power+their dominion over their universe, they're pretty unstoppable. Likely that, if killed, Nahobino's law would revert and all the gods and monsters would return to existence just like how Nahobino restrictions were lifted once the previous god fell. Meanwhile the Law ending would basically be a repeat of the game if not a quick destruction and the Chaos ending would lack that Reality Bock. However, it would have an entire planet to use as an army that's already coexisting. Basically, to me at least it's like this in terms of results: Chaos=TN>Neutral>Law. I agree that having Nahobino show up in a later SMT game as either the tragic Creator God or as lore scraps after their death attempting to guide the next protagonist to better results would be sick though. I'd absolutely play that. In the end though, Mandala System rules them.
Being honest from a perspective of having no bias towards any alignment, it doesn't feel like law is portrayed in a negative light like you say. It feels like one game focused on law(1), one chaos(2), one neutral (4), while the rest took an equal opportunity stance (5 strange, nocture). Even towards 5's secret ending I didn't see it as that bleak but more of a separation of worlds as opposed to full non existence due to the nature that the mc as a nahobino exists still, especially since yhwh couldn't erase the other gods only put them down. Just like real life we don't know if there's something beyond because a spiritual sense comes from each individual so saying that it takes away doesn't feel right considering a normal person in universe wouldn't know the difference of having real demons or not. As for yhwh any times he was portrayed as "obviously evil" usually had the other reps also portrayed as extremes unless the game was favoring them from the get go (2 immediately comes to mind in comparison to 4 for instance). And with how society functions today with parroting topics in order to fit in, the irony of law reps usually having a "hive mind" doesn't really strike me as overtly negative or vice versa with chaos reps social darwinism because again elements can be found in irl lives. Needless to say I agree that many wouldn't choose these option in the games but usually the portrayal of these reps are associated with games where they are extremes ie smt4
@@Tony4You As a Christian, it is appreciated to see these issues tackled. SMT is a great series, but to see that it has some thought provoking philosophies makes me appreciate the series even more. 😍
I think the Neutral (secret) one is the best ending. And it is not even hard to understand why: There is nothing which splits humanity, therefore it's the best outcome. Removing the supernatural saves every human and allows the mc to live a normal live with his friends without grandiose delusions of supernatural beings. The side quests of the demons show precisely how in a world with massive amounts of "superpower-freedom" it is impossible to live happily. They are betraying/killing/enslaving each other because of their powers all the time.
i personally couldnt get behind smt1 and 2 gameplay, but hearing them described here makes me desperately want them to be remade so i could enjoy the great story without dealing with the outdated gameplay
Law Alignment feat: A SMT mainline where YHVH needs to be revived through His Son taking his place. That's right, calling out J.C. for this one. New Testament ass whooping.
God in SMT is based on Gnosticism Demiurge, a powerful figure who beleieved hinself as a supreme deity, so that's why he's a bad guy in SMT. It was very clear in SMT Nine, in that game a figure called "Sophia" have a big roll in Natural ending.
Ideal situation: Law: Using control to enforce meaningful peace onto the world. It is important that this ending be absolute without wiggle room. To grant everlasting finality. Chaos: Value personal freedom over all else. You do not guarantee anyone's safety or happiness, but you create a playing field where people can be rewarded for their merit. Neutral: Unlike law and chaos, neutral should not offer as sound a solution to the games core conflict as either of them. Neutral is to stave off the issues for now or trade away an immediate problem for one a little more longterm. It's to hope, hope for something better. Even with no clear evidence that it'll ever get better. Law is for angels, pure and complete. Chaos is for demons, ambitious and varied. So it is fitting that neutral is for humans. It's the least powerful, the least definitive, the most risky, the hardest to achieve. It solves nothing, only kicking the can down the road, hoping humans might have a better solution one day. What could be more human than to struggle and hope?
SMT5 could have worked better if they 1) had characters travel with you through the areas. Yuzuru travels with you in area 1 when you meet up, there's no reason to split up. Area 2 Dazai comes with you to make up for failing to protect the school which builds on him going to Abdiel and law for strength, Yuzuru comes because he's worried about his sister and desires power to protect her and others leading to chaos, and Tao to save her friend. Tao dies and Dazai and Yuzuru are unable to protect her which push them further to law or chaos. Area 3 Dazai and Yuzuru travel with you, further in their ideals and beating the demon king the split happens and you pick a side 2) made the alignment lock before the fourth area, so then you could travel through it collecting the keys with your rep, allowing more development of the characters and ideologies. 3) made Dazai's turn make more sense by having him being manipulated/controlled/influenced by Abdiel like Sahori was by Lahmu. 4) had Miyazu be the neutral or true/hidden neutral rep. She wants to save people as a doctor, wants to be stronger and do more after having been kidnapped and failed to help Sahori. Teams up with Khonsu and goddess Tao. Also means they should have done more with Yakumo since he's so underused for an alignment rep
Honestly, I kind of feel the entire law vs chaos thing is kind of a holdover from the first SMT game where the entire point was mostly just that extremes are bad and neutral is the only sensible choice. Like, yeah, you aren't wrong that the messiahs aren't that evil in the first game... until you remember that the god they worship is the very reason why all of society got nuked in the first place. What with him using Thor to control America and getting them to nuke Japan (SMT 1 is weird). Which still basically turns the law ending into a pretty unambiguous "evil wins!" kind of deal. With that said though, I do think some games handled it better than others. Strange Journey and Nocturne are both basically the same as SMT 1 insofar that neutral is really the only sensible choice (Though in both cases the updated rereleases significantly muddle things), but both do so in very different ways. Especially Strange Journey's highly ambiguous Lorax "Unless" ending. Devil survivors is also a great example, though obviously not a mainline game. It helps that the unambiguously worst ending in that game is technically neutral, or at least not law and chaos. So, in my opinion, I would honestly say the main point to be made here is to focus on different themes. Law bad, and to a lesser extent chaos bad, has pretty much been done already. I'm not saying you have to do away with the sides entirely, but putting a new twist on them is kind of a necessity to not just make your game a repeat of SMT1 with even less ambiguity. At worst you end up with SMT4, where being really nice to everybody ends up with you killing anything. Which is a... somewhat questionable story direction.
My biggest problem with alignments in smt is representation For as much as this series wants to present each route as a viable option and none of the three are explicitly good or evil.....they seem to loooooooooooove making the law route the most evil one Kaneko's interviews about how he doesnt think he represented god as a villain.....literally most games in the series portray law as the genocidal evil option and make it so neutral and chaos are the two best routes to take.I get that Japan doesnt exactly like abrahamic religions and considering history some of it is justified........but its been a huge overgeneralization when it comes to how law is portrayed Only devil survivor 1 seemed to have given law a fair shot as a route and even then it does fall into few of the same trappings as tje other games You'd think this would be obvious but,not every christian is a genocidal crusader and christianity isnt the only abrahamic religion. There is Judaism and Islam but Atlus mostly seem to take from the christian side of abrahamic history
100% agree with you :D. And one thing was funny to me when they explained Abdiels name in SMTV "Abdiel means Slave of God" or something. I think they refrence names like "Abdullah" which means Servant of God. Servants and Slaves have different definitions I would say. But they clearly overgeneralize abrahamic religion like you said :D Still love the games tho.
@@semiherdogan9862 smt is my favorite franchise which is why i expect more from a franchise that tries to portray itself with moral greyness All I ask from Atlus is to at the very least do their due dilligence of research,while the percentage of abrahamic believers in Japan are low they still can try and consult muslim,christian and jewish people and experts just within Tokyo itself and it can make a world of difference As a muslim myself i can tell you right now that we do live in peace with people of other beliefs and non religious people alike Sure every religion has its extremists but those are the exception not the rule,and a government's exploit of a religion to further its power does not reflect how the religion operates either Id love for a mainline smt game where law is either portrayed from its believers side and ask why their faith in God is as strong as it is and how they seek peace,rather than just confine the portrayal to the higher powers only and what the tyrants of history used it for,or at the very least present a different view of God that isnt the same genocidal view nearly every game had.
the segment with virgilia was really profound and insightful. with japanese media im interested in how the aspects of japanese attitudes translate into writing decisions(because japan is an... interesting country, for better or for worse) so im glad virgilia covered the japanese relationship with mythology here
I know a lot of people feel like SMT V's secret ending has a theme disconnected from some of its side quest requirements, but I rather like that. You have to see all these different sides of demons from the benevolent Fionn Mac Cumhail, to Khonsu's empathy for a human leading him to foolish pursuit and the Egyptian pantheon's concern for him, to Shiva's desire to destroy everything to recreate the world. And after see all this you still get to decide if recreating the world without demons or not is the way you want to go. It gives that choice more weight than if you did not have those experiences.
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Really impressive work. This definitely took some time.
It's funny, because Digital Devil Saga 2 doesn't have an alignment choice, but it has extremely clear cut law and chaos goals. Probably my favorite versions of it as well.
I personally would like to see YHVH portrayed as a benevolent force who wishes the best for all humanity, angels and demons.
He still might force them to obey his command, but not in the way we saw in most games (aka doing it by force).
Eh, I like when YHVH/god is portrayed as generally a dick because that seems to be the case 🤷♀️
From what I understand btw is that SMT also very heavily leans into Gnosticism, which is a very complicated matter
Hey tony, I don't know if you're interested but if you play strange journey, 4 and 4 apocalypse on citra you can download the hd sprite pack for the games from the citra's official community forum.
I think it is specially handy when making videos when you have the higher quality sprites and also text.
Law: God is pretty cool dudes, we should all follow his totalitarian laws
Chaos: Murder is badass
Neutral: I'm right and everyone else is wrong
Chaos obvi best choice. Gotta have the chance to kill to choose not killing, right, bruh?
*philosophy student big brain intensifies*
SMT in a nutshell
Severing gods from human life is not that bad or sad. If all of those gods and demons only interaction with humans is to fuck with their life’s then I say good riddance.
Neutral is more like, "ya'll are both fucked up, leave me outta this shit".
Neutral ftw if you give me the possibility to change something I'll do it my way, not someone else's
I think a big aspect of why SMT struggles so much with Law endings is that there is a strong underpinning that Law knows what's best for the world, and this often contradicts the central thesis behind having a choice at all. So you end up in this very narrow writing space, where you can't make Law too appealing to kill all choices either. Often, then, where Law endings best succeed is an appeal to the greater good, but at a sacrifice (so long as this sacrifice is not so great as to be unreasonable), so that Chaos endings that don't appeal to that greater good aren't unreasonable either.
By contrast, then, the Law endings that are bad either fail because either the sacrifice is completely unreasonable or there is no reasonable appeal to the greater good.
Maruki was the perfect law rep. More SMT games need to have a Makuki, not another "hurr durr free will bad god good" plot like of what we've seen in the majority of games.
@@krimsonkatt the law rep of smt 2 is probably the best
Yeah, Law by its nature is just too polarizing. It's either objectively the best or objectively the worst, with almost middle ground.
Edit: I mean this on an ideological level as well. Law requires a central, all-powerful authority to function. If this leader is perfect (ex Jesus), then you get all of the benefits and almost none of the caveats. If the leader is imperfect, even if still well meaning, then everything's screwed. And even a perfect leader won't save you from his successors. Just an extended explanation.
Summed it up perfectly.In order to make law bad,they force EVERYTHING good about it down the drain to make its reps and demons(specifically big G) the most horrific beings imaginable next to chaos and neutral.
Its almost comical how good law would be if they stopped going the "they're all genocidal" route for 5 minutes like they did in 5.
@@ofilosofoouumfumante5655 satan is garbage. Hail YHVH!
Law routes could be infinitely more colorful and interesting if they just brought back the idea of having other deities ally with the YHVH squad in the game’s conflict, like Vishnu being an ally in the SMT1 Law route iirc. They kind of revisited this idea with the Bethel leaders but obviously didn’t really stick with it.
Yeah like the force of god and Hinduism team together to deal with other gods that they see other gods as warmongers and wanting peace and harmony for humans(and there kingdoms).
Interesting idea! A group of demons aside from the angels supporting YHVH could be very interesting narratively
@@starmaker75 I think the Zoroastrian pantheon-the Ahura Mazda side specifically-should all be dedicated followers of Law as well. perhaps they could make it so that the three principal deities of each pantheon-Ahura Mazda, Brahman the Creator, and of course Yod Heh Vav Heh-are each three sides of a singular lawful entity, embodying different aspects of Law?
Since the good gods as law and evil gods as chaos is too clicke, how about the current religions gods as law and ancient religions as chaos, with some of both as neutral
@@luigiye6243 God would be the definition of a True Neutral character. I can get behind this.
It’s really hard to pretend that the alignments are all viable when Law is almost always run by the series’s main villain. Sure, they may claim that YHVH is corrupted by some greater wrong, but since only his side is apparently corrupted that way, it still basically results in severe imbalance rather than any meaningful philosophical decision-making.
I remember hearing about all of this stuff of YHVH being corrupted by something greater... But I get the massive feeling that this whole thing was completely discarded... Or it was a straight up lie from the beginning.
Yep, that reached peak ridiculousness in Apocalypse, when YHVH is "revealed" to be responsible for literally everything, and I mean LITERALLY everything.
Look at Law in actuality though, for the people of Germany they had to follow a horrible man as that was Lawful at the time.
This is what Law is, not a right/wrong rather following someone else without freedom.
Sure you could theoretically follow someone good through Lawful actions... but when a single bad person gains power you end up Lawfully following the bad. Following Law ends up with corruption and trapped in the corruption.
@@Buglin_Burger7878 Did you pay attention to the game because the first SMT uses a Japanee fascist expy for its chaos rep. Fascism's romantic nationalism argues for survival of the fittest and a resistance to some globalizing force which is why Hitler and Mussolini hated the Church. Obviously there are Christian Fascists, but the most popular iteration is anti communist and anti clerical in favor of the nation.
Also homegrown fascism in Japan would not be YHWH worship as opposed to Shinto or Buddhist extremism. You'd have to think every country is Spain or America for that assertion to be true. Law in SMT represents an odd mixture of Communism and YHWH worship as it was two things Japan feared taking over, hence why Law has a robot alien theme too.
If you went with Stalin though I'd have relented.
They ALL seem to skew that way, mainline and Persona. Like, we get it. Siding with the devil is rock n roll an all that but cmon
I remember having a discussion of how to take the alignments of SMT in more interesting directions, especially Law. This would be more work, but splitting the alignments into smaller factions to allow for a spectrum of beliefs would make in game decisions feel far more natural and less of what you stated was the main problem with endings like 4’s Law: the disparity between the small decisions and the big finale.
For Law specifically the framework is already there. Have YHVH be largely ambiguous, a voice who comes in throughout the game, but like his biblical depictions relies on his servants and prophets to carry out His will. However, what if His voice vanished for whatever reason (kinda like the set up of 5’s plot but not obvious)? The Upper and Lower choirs would have differing opinions on how to handle humanity.
The Upper Choirs (led by the Seraphim) tasked with maintaining the laws of the universe, would come to the conclusion that sinful humans are destroying God’s perfect world. With him no longer giving them orders, they would default to their own thoughts: God’s perfect world above all. They would seek to either destroy or change humanity into something they’re not: effectively making them entirely new beings. No free will, no sin, but perfect harmony with all.
However the Lower Choir (led by the Archangels) would oppose this. They serve God by interacting directly with humanity and know that despite their Fall, He still loves them and wishes for them to accept salvation freely, maintaining what makes them human and images of God himself. As God’s messengers, they would know the best way of finding YHVH’s guidance and lead humanity down a path according to his words, not his established laws.
Chaos of course would be divided into alignments like Mem Aleph’s return to the primeval, or Lucifer’s freedom of beliefs like SMT 2.
And finally for Neutral you can do either Yakumo’s “human’s alone” mentality (but in a way that matches your actions in game) or do the “bonds” ending from 4 apocalypse or New Chaos in Redux: a world where demons and humans work together.
So like Shin Megami Tensei Nine did it? With Dark-Law, True Law, Light-Law, Neutral-Dark, True Neutral, Neutral-Light, Dark-Chaos, True Chaos and Light-chaos?
I like that! I also had an idea for each alignment (including neutral) having a meanie/Radical and nice/Moderate subfaction
That Law setup honestly sounds really cool, and even manages to work in that sort of underdog layer that Chaos and Neutral routes get a lot, with the whole lower vs upper thing. And it’d be a neat way to give Law players their own boss fight against Mettatron or Satan. The idea of adding to the stakes by having faction infighting that needs to be settled for you to have a chance of taking on the opposing forces is a really cool setup for a series that’s all about ideological conflicts.
@@P23P119 If you wanted to feel extra bad, it’d be easy to work in a “kill all the demons who helped humanity survive” part of the humanity only faction ending, kill Lucifer who just wanted to offer freedom of choice over primal urges in the Chaos route, and of course in Law: the Seraphim decreeing the angels wishing to preserve humanity are fallen and corrupt them before sending them to hell. Yes this would be a bit biased against the “pure” routes, but you can have their endings be more conclusive in their efforts, while the milder factions still leave the possibility of strife and conflict open in the future. The temptation of sin will persist, demons could attack humans if their alliance ever broke, and freedom of belief would give rise to extreme groups that seek to dominate over all others.
That's exactly what they should do.
SMT V seemed like the first law route where I at least didn't feel like crap for siding with. God's last act was to protect Tokyo as long as he could, all you are doing is maintaining that last act in his stead. It's my preferred ending in that game because creating a new pantheon is stupid, making humans fend off demons by themselves is stupid, and killing Aogami is stupid.
Law ending is the most rewarding for me personally as well, aside from the strange representation throughout the game proper. YHVH was not there so his actions spoke for him, and yeah his last act being to preserve humanity said more positively about him than any portrayal in the game could have
Usually I'm a Chaos guy but yeah Law is absolutely the best ending in V. You revive everyone, you don't kill demons unfairly, and Nahobino is happy ans won't be as bad as YHVH was as God. They tried to shoehorn a "butt fRee wILL?!" But it doesn't work as the ending says humans don't need to think for themselves, not that they can't.
Idk I dissagree, I saw absolutely no reason to side law. They treat you like shit after you help them and then they try to kill you for being a nahobino, absolutely no reason to side with them. The only good ending is secret neutral. No gods or demons just a world for humans
Yeah you all are right but... I love gods. So I was more under that reason choosing my ending in this game. I love the "A constellation of myriad gods will illuminate a free horizon" quote said by Tsukuyomi. I never was a chaos guy in other games but this time "Politheistic route" was my most personal-linked ending. Or neutral maybe. Law and "True Neutral" are fine but as I said, I don't like the idea of eliminate demons. I'd rather keep humans struggling with it like in other neutral endings, I and IV ones to be precise. Nevertheless, in "secret neutral ending" even if I vanished demons from the land, we got more knowledge about the function of the Universe, and its Mandala system. And at the very end the narrator clarified "only cosmos/the great will knows how much this world without demons will last" letting the door opened. I think every single ending was interesting and well done.
@@TheMidnightChannel sure bethel is mean to you, but in terms of getting what you want, which narratively the only thing the MC seems to want is to rescue his home, law is the easiest way to do that since it just keeps the status quo. The secret ending is such a betrayal to Aogami who has done nothing but love and protect you. It's like pulling the trigger on Old Yeller and in this case he didn't even have hydrophobia.
One thing i'd like to say is that in the Law Redux segment, YHVH wasn't made into an evil character, Shekinah's only a fragment of his power that took form and wanted to rule absolute. He appears on his true form on the EX Mission Demiurge battle where you battle another fragment of his power, Demiurge, and starts to reconstruct his form. The game does say that he is arrogant but, even with his arrogance, he promises to guard humanity as long as humanity promises to obey and follow the holy spirit.
There's nothing more than this for his real appearance, because in the game lore he is "dead" and fragmented in multiple forms that want his power for themselves.
I think the series' problem is that it keeps fighting strawmen and surface level teenager philosophy. Strange Journey seemed to finally evolve these ideas more to steelman area giving more compelling reason for all of them but V seemed to still return back to weak positions.
Hard agree, Strange Journey peaked in the believability of LAW to most people then SMT5 regressed back worse than any of the games. It shouldn't be this difficult to justify the importance of law and order even after the apocalypse, SMT 1 did it
I really want a deep strange journey remake but get rid of the tedious map design.
@@louistim10689if you don't like basic first person dungeon crawling then you should look for another game
@@thirdeye440 Actually no, I finished the game many times. But would be happy if it get a remake.
@@louistim10689 It did. It wasn't great.
I think SMT endings could be helped a lot by leaning on the other alignment chart that they rarely actually touch, light/neutral/dark. Say there’s a law side that wants to destroy all it sees as evil and there’s also a law side that wants to uplift humanity to what it sees as the best path. Being able to have multiple flavours of law and chaos endings in one game would do wonders for easing the objective good and bad of certain alignment endings
There are only 2 games that use the Light/Neutral/Dark variations to their endings. Majin Tensei 2 Spiral Nemesis and SMT NINE.
The former has a full translation ready, but it NEVER comes up in conversation. And the later doesnt even have a proper full translation. And its also a plagued by pretty dull gameplay.
Then look no further than SMT NINE baby(it is an unfinished but cool mess of a game, also untranslated stuck on the OG Xbox)
@@kuraux56s59 Spiral Nemesis is the peak of MajTen from what I heard
@@walkingglasses6264 I did hear similar things about Majin Tensei 2. That the story absolutely rocks but the gameplay is a bit slow-paced.
I wish light chaos can be more touches uppon: a world where no gods chain US, where strong and weak are and work as equally for The betterment of The world, where everyone lives inbfreedom and harmony and able to Chase their dreams and purpouse in life with those You call friends
I actually find the strange journey neutral endings incredibly bleak, especially in today's day and age; basically arguing that humanity is incapable of learning from their mistakes to make any meaningful change, and that the only way they'll survive is through permanent outside help (the fact that space marine's role in protecting them causes him to lose his humanity is really pointed there too - he is forced to be an outsider to society for protecting us.) It's a really strange and hopeless take on a neutral ending for the game whose whole scenario is a direct allusion to the effects of climate change
I think that humanity being unable is change is pretty based and true
@@krs1297 Yep, I mean that's why New Chaos is based, after all.
@BitterOrange Well the original Strange Journey did come out in 2010 ( maybe 2009 in Japan).
Even if we learn to manage resources better, this doesn't change the fact that we so quickly forget the moral lessons learned at the cost of many. How many times are we going to try to implement communism before we finally realize that it isn't feasible? Humanity will probably attempt to implement it endlessly using the explanation that "it'll be different this time." Regardless of how many millions are killed in the process. Because humans don't learn. They struggle to accept that utopia doesn't exist. That the majority of their problems stem from their own hearts, and not from an outside force. They lack the foresight to be able to tell when their attempts to fix a problem will result in making it worse. So quickly we forget that materialism leads to unhappiness. So quickly we lose our tempers and act rashly. So quickly we forget the importance of responsibility and become consumed with licentiousness. Human wisdom is not passed down cleanly from one Generation to the next. It diminishes. Until it is completely forgotten. And then when catastrophe strikes, we relearn the lessons, tech it to the next generation, and it's forgotten not soon after. We exist in a perpetual state of decay. Never able to overcome the mistakes our ancestors have made. We are bound to them. Doomed to repeat the past for as long as we walk the earth.
All the original endings are bleak honestly
Law makes everyone mindless drones, the second most extreme of all Law endings in the series, losing only to SMT2's straight up genocideal ending
Chaos dooms humanity to extinction, since demons have a huge advantage over humans in terms of brute power and mem aleph removed the only advantage humanity had over some demons: wits and rationality.
And Neutral is downright bleak and depressing as you already described
Alignments are in desperate need of a shake up. While I understand mainline is all about the more cosmic aspect and as such should reflect that I think a more down to earth approach would do wonders for the system and will lead to more nuance and complexity the story could have.
Really all that is needed is add nuance to the already existing alignments like in none having variations on each.
All they need to do is revive the reasons
No, they just need to be more subtle and less biased, no need to another #5282829 "down to earth" ending.
The cosmic aspect is part of the appeal for smt and appealing to people outside the target audience is just plain stupid
I feel like they were initally on this track but after the 2018 overhaul that got sidelined. I mean, they were intending to make the game more focused on social issues and such, right? That is still present somewhat with the Sahori thing and the sidequest alignments but it doesn't go that far...
law doesn't deserve any nuance. If it had nuance it wouldn't be law. Law is literally just about maintaining a terrible status quo that sucks for anyone not at the very top of the law pyramid scheme.
Leave it purely for anecdotal and reaserch reasons, but try reading or learning about some of the more eastern deities and demons. Not because I really want to see a video on one but also since our mythos is sometimes straight up wild. Want an example?
Everyone knows Shiva right? Most popular Indian deity and destroyer of worlds. In one event he gifted a demon the power to destroy anything he touched with his right hand, which the demon decided to test on Shiva, this led to Shiva being chased by the demon all across his home Mount Kailash. Finally Vishnu intervenes by transforming himself into a dancing woman and tricking the demon into touching his own head and destroying himself.
This one story is easily my favorite.
oh Shiva. [sitcom laugh track]
Shiva is really cool. I remember hearing about this one story where some hunters went out hunting and when they came back they found Shiva dancing with their wives. In anger, they cursed at Shiva and this for some reason caused his penis to fall off, which then began to melt through the earth because it was so hot. This would eventually be stopped when one of the gods put a bowl of water under it. Not sure how accurate my recollection of the story is, but I remember watching a series of lectures on Shiva somewhere on youtube where the professor (or maybe he was a priest, I can't remember) recounted the story. I haven't been able to find it since, so if anyone knows what I'm talking about please send me the link because I would really like to watch it again.
I plan to cover more religions and mythos in the future absolutely! Thanks for watching
@@magusthethricegreat7412 holy shit that is a cursed amount of descriptive.
@@magusthethricegreat7412 That's some amazing dong he got there bruh. No wonder Parvati got a fierce aspect of Kali of Durga. One must be able to handle their partner after all.
Devil Survivor Overclocked probably has the best ethos for endings of the series. You're presented with problems which you have obvious interest in, ending the lock down, saving your friends, becoming the King of Bel, and then it asks you in which way do you want to solve them. There's obvious chaos and law courses with Naoya and Amane, but it doesn't beat you over the head with alignments instead asking what exactly you want to motivate you while making all options reasonable. Serve God, as even in this ordeal he's been merciful, or screw him cause what give him the right to throw you into an ordeal anyway? Control the demons for proper use and bring the world a cohabitation with the occult powers, or send them all back to the expanse and be done with it? And as always with Best Girl, bail, cause this sucks and I don't wanna be here. There's been some ending throughout the series that kind of do the same open endedness to it, SMTIV neutral ending has you want to protect Tokyo but not at the cost of Mikado. Good goal, kinda falls apart with how difficult it is to get that fucking ending.
I still really want another Law path like the one in Devil Survivor 1....
@@kuraux56s59 Devil survivor 1 nailed the different paths as they all have there postoperative and negative parts and you can feel good no matter what part you pick.
@@4wheal Fucking yeah. Outside of Atsuro's ending, and the original version of Yuzu's ending.
All of the other paths in Devil Survivor feel like they are valid options! And NOT stupid "SURPRISE!!! We are going to do bad stuff anyway!"-bait and switchs!
@@kuraux56s59 new law ending in strange journey redux is pretty good
agreed for SMT IV neutral route. WHO THE FUCK THOUGHT IT WAS A GOOD IDEA TO MAKE LIKE 15-20 SIDEQUESTS MANDATORY TO ADVANCE THROUGH THE STORY?!
Not only did it destroy the story pacing of the neutral route, but most of the side quest felt pretty pointless and didn't feel like they were contributing to the main story.
Sometimes I wonder what it'd be like if they explored the Light and Dark axis more instead of pushing it under the rug
It would be cool if they meshed the traditional alignments with something like Nocturne's Reasons. Maybe have the divine leaders represent the Dark sides of Law and Chaos, while the human representatives err towards the Light.
That way, you could pursue the alignment you want and either go all in on some twisted extremist world-view, or rebel against your own faction with the help of a friend to make it better.
I actually have an idea for an SMT game where the moral axis is divided along Light/Humanity/Dark lines rather than L/C/N.
the idea itself is essentially "how can I make an SMT game as compelling as possible while maintaining moral ambiguity and creating a massive middle finger directed at the actual creators?"
@@WakkaMadeInYevon SMT has already done this actually, sorta , SMT: NINE was even named after this idea. Where the 3 alignments were separated into 9 different branches, each alignment getting a Light-Neutral-Dark. I think the Devil Survivor games dappled into this aswell, though I’m not exactly sure. I think it’s pretty unlikely that SMT would risk re exploring this idea in the mainline games, considering how poorly SMT: NINE did.
@@keiviroque5666 the X box is at fault for that one
Absolutely amazing work Tony. Like I already had a chance to read your early script, but also getting to hear your final thoughts as a whole, on top of the incredible breakdown of every mainline ending, was all such a treat (and very easy to grasp) as someone who has yet to play all the SMT games.
And once again, thanks so much for giving me this opportunity to join you for this video! Really glad this project turned out so well! 😄
Thank you for providing some context on the cultural influence behind SMT's bias towards law! I actually feel more educated by it, so again thank you.
I am explaining a bit more in my own comment, but I will say that your part in this video was indeed great, and I think Japan's history with Christianity and the fact that Ieyasu Tokugawa and the other Great Unifiers were Buddhist does drive home not just this series' apparent anti-Yahveh bias, but also the very Buddhist vibes that I always got from Nahobino and Aogami ever since the game's reveal. It just all comes together in a very interesting way.
U were great too!:D
Your input was well appreciated as I never knew how deep that rabbit hole went.
The Light v. Dark alignment is incredibly underutilized (it’s used in what, two games?), but it’d be exactly what we need to fix the alignment system. Kind of like IV’s alignment grading system, but a lot more specific events will put you in a concrete alignment. So you could be a vigilante in a Light-Chaos route, a violent dictator in a Dark-Law route, selfishly remake the world in your image in Dark-Neutral, and so on. That way you could include more complex philosophies on top of fixing the “least awful route” problem some games have
Moral ambiguity is what makes this games interesting. The Idea that God is a dictator and a totalitarian, however all his promisses about salvation and eternal life are true makes a more complex and interesting situation. This is far more though provoking than "God evil".
I only care if I can obey YHVH and if He wins in the end. If not, then game is worthless.
issue the main lines keep coming out uninteresting, i haven't enjoyed main line since SMT3, 4 had lots of issues, 5 down right boring to get into, its chore to play first main line i ended dropping in few hours how slow it is
SMT V really could’ve done a better job with the Neutral and Law alignments.
And the chaos alignments... And the characters...
If anything chaos needs the most revision. Yuzuru was nonexistent
Law was the only developed one Chaos was so awfully done I was so confused when it happend it was so out of no where with no build up
To me i think smt 5 had good ideas for the alignmnets showing the good and bad and not making one super stupid
Idk Law was solid, but Atlus really tried to paint both Abdiel and Dazai as evil with their transformations.
Cool video. Thanks to Lady Vergilia for the history lesson on Christianity in japan. I had read but a bit on it here and there, so I knew where this video was going, but I learnt new things too.
Yeah she did a great job with the summarization and I hope people learned a lot from it
@@Tony4You I learned a lot.
Nocturne's "reasons" seems like a right path for this. You won't be bound too much by the concept of alignments, yet you may be able to vaguely guess what alignments does the said reason possess. Not to mention, it was driven by human choice as well. My biggest gripe with mainline alignments is because other than neutral, law and chaos feels like a choice that you definitely need to choose and not because of the will of those involved. They made it impossible to 'stay human' when you chose law or chaos which is pretty weird considering neutral is pretty much turning the MC godlike yet still retaining his humanity.
i actually think the other way around. yeah, going for law is meant to shred your humanity to ascend into a "higher being", while chaos is the opposite, its shreding your humanity in order to become a beast of instinct. in other words, law would be to become an angel, and chaos to become a demon.
Agree. Even if I would honestly argue the reasons are all pretty fucking awful. I do think doing something different every now and then is a good idea.
The problem is that all the standard reasons were stupid other than maybe Musubi.
The problem is, in the end the Reasons are mainly just the same thing as Law vs Dark but renamed
The cultural bias explains a lot, but I think the best explanation is that they are simply taking things as givens and don't ask any questions. Like why is YHVH the strongest and why anyone would follow him before he was the undisputed victor?
Further, maybe the gods of old deserved to have their divinity stripped from them for being massive jerks themselves. The fact he didn't destroy them when that was apparently on the table meant he understood they spoke to something essential, so instead he just put them in their place.
And given the cosmic scale of events, there really needs to be a character to challenge the Japanese gods for being so petty and provincial as they seem content to let the universe burn as long as Japan is fine.
As for satisfying endings, I think it was Alfred Hitchcock who said characters are how you get away with telling the same story over and over. So the alignment ends could end on an ambiguous note as far as the larger struggle, but by resolving character arcs the player could get some satisfaction. Just some thoughts.
I feel like depicting the japanese god in a somewhat bad light would take actually setting a game in another country, which i think even if they did they d only do so in a spinoff. Not saying it's a bad thing mind you but both persona and shin megami tensei have largely maintained themselves as pretty japanese(strange journey happen in the poles, but well the poles are more of a neutral space)
I think the dichotomy between the two neutral endings in SMT5 are reflected on a comment that Aogami makes around the middle of the story, in which he states that demon summoners who are too heavily involved with the matters of demons eventually lose sight of the issues of real people. Ironically the ending where you do the most quests with demons is the one where you can choose to erase the demons in favor of protecting humanity as a whole. Though I think it is important that you can also choose the normal neutral ending after doing all the quests, which points to this being a crossroads where the Nahobino is identified to have become attached to the demons or not. I guess they chose to present the choice this way with the factor of the Nahobino already being heavily involved with several demons' issues because it makes the choice to still choose humanity more impactful. It's also important to say that Aogami is probably biased when he first explains this, since in the secret neutral ending, he explains that it is the path he would have chosen (presumably if he wasn't fused with the kid already).
Of course, most players glossed past this because it was explained fairly innocuously earlier in the story (a problem with the story in general) and because most people who got the true neutral ending (me included) simply chose it because they wanted to see the "true ending", ignoring the second choice between both neutral endings as "just some extra thing", so the overall feeling is just "why did I have to do the quests to get this ending?".
Regardless I still appreciate that at least with this dynamic that there is not necessarily a better ending. I remember getting the secret neutral ending and really debating with myself if it really was a better outcome than the normal neutral ending.
honestly i think the endings should have been reversed and the normal ending should have been expanded on
I feel like mainline is just too stuck on the idea of the alignments always having to be the same themes. I wish we could get more outcomes of Chaos learning the strong can lead the weak without bloodshed and anarchy (Like SJR and Overclocked did), Law learns it doesn't need absolute control and brainwashing to teach people to be good to one another (Also like SJR/Overclocked) and Neutral learns to fully accept everyone has good and bad points and one should be free to do things however they wish instead of "I reject you all, now go home." And you can still have the villains just be extreme sides of the conflict who are going too far and have to be stopped.
It's also REALLY hard to want to side with Law when they're always portrayed as completely pompous jerks on a power trip and God is shown as the biggest, worst jerk in each game. I'm not religious in any way but do we always have to make God out to be bad by default? We can't just have an angel that's a little too zealous in their goals and God says "Hey can you maybe get him to cut that out?" or something? I realize Lucifer is kinda like that but I mean more of a Mastema but crazier kinda thing.
I also really really dislike how being nice and kind is always seen as Lawful, being a jerk is always chaos and being indifferent and apathetic is Neutral. Like you can't have it any other way.
On your last point, I really wish there were more characters like Dahn from Raidou 2.
He at first, appears like a stereotypical Chaos hero. Brash, hot-headed, not giving a damn about societal norms... But he completely lacks the "THE STRONG SHALL THRIVE!!!"-mentality.
And all of his actions are for the sake of saving his sister from a horrible fate, and when his plans end up failing big time. And end up causing a lot of unintended casualties... He ABSOLUTELY REGRETS it. Instead of rebeling in it.
This is a based opinion
Screw Law, Chaos and Neutral are 95% of the time the way to go. Humans have created God(s) and demons; they do not exist to be subjugated by one or the other! Rebellion will forevermore flow through human veins.
YHVH is a self-righteous prick anyway, both biblically and in SMT.
I feel like you want all alignments to be absolutely good, from the examples you gave each alignment is good and there is no difference in choosing between them, I think the purpose of these alignments is that not one of them is all good or all bad they're always a mixture, Lawful is teaching people to be kind and nice to each other by brainwashing them and taking their free will, Chaos is survival of the strongest, and so on, the alignments being more gray than black and white and sort of hard to choose between them is I think purposeful.
@@alenezi989a3 but they aren't grey. with the exception of Neutrality, the alignments appear designed to be as unappealing as possible.
heck, my personal headcanon is that the alignments are designed by the Great Will to be unappealing in order for humanity to herd themselves like sheep along the path that the Great Will has laid out for them.
My favourite Law Ending is probably Amanes Day 8 Ending in Devil Survivor Overclocked , since it's one of the endings where pretty much everyone is happy. It also helps that that DeSu is one of the few SMT's that doesen't portray YHVH as straight up evil.
Same!
They still portray him as a douche though. Playing through the game twice I don't see where people have found things to like about Yhvh in it.
Everyone is happy? Under OLD Testament YHVH? If that isn't the biggest farce of an ending I don't know what is.
I enjoy the tearing apart of this ending that the other endings achieved, as I'm not a fan of the peace and equality bullshit.
@@haruhirogrimgar6047 YHVH gives humans a chance of proving themselves in 7 days, thats more than what he does in mainline.
Also during the entire game, Remiel is there to help you and your group solve the lockdown. Remiel is one of the few angels in the franchise that actually help you solve the situation, he doesnt even mind you refusing to using Bel's power.
@@alsaiduq4363 Oh boy how generous of him to "give" humanity 7 whole days rather than just go through with his plan to f'ck us over altogether.
Man SMTV's story at the end where every representative dies and you fulfill their will couldve been cool if they made it actually make sense ;-;
But it does.
The throne is the prize and it's wills pit against each other.
Dazai siding with Abdiel was because he had nothing and was convinced by her, he can be a force for change. Ren (or whatever his name was) is very pointless because he has no arc; he affiliates with Bethel because of his sister and has no growth beyond that. Tao was the chosen one to lead the Nahobino to rebuild the world.
They fight you because your goals are different. You stand against Bethel if sided with Abdiel, against God if with them, against both if you mean to destroy the throne or demons themselves.
It misses the tragic aspect of IV because you didn't bond with these people as much as you did with Walter, Jonathan and Isabeau.
I like Reasons in _Nocturne_ and the large variety of alignments in the _Devil Survivor_ games. Always felt that was the direction mainline games should've pursued.
If the writers want to stick to Law-Neutral-Chaos, they should make all options equally appealing. But they rarely are.
I think a lot of problems would be resolved by taking the _SMT Nine_ approach of fragmenting the alignments.
What I love about Nocturne's Freedom ending is the fact that it completely flips what Kagutsuchi claims at the beginning on its head. He claims that you have "not even a hint of Reason". But by refusing everyone's own desire to shape the world in their image and choosing to restore it, you prove him wrong in a sense. You not having a Reason fits with the idea of humanity as a whole, because many people don't have major ideologies or purpose either. So many people are just trying their best with the cards they were dealt and the lives they've carved for themselves. Giving Kagutsuchi the finger and effectively telling both him and Lucifer to piss off and leave the world to be shaped by human hands is perfect. No one person should be able to dictate the future of billions.
The funny thing is that this is a staple for many JRPGs where you end up fighting some God in the end that wants to rule all of humanity
Weak though it was, I think you miss some of the points of V's routes for Law and Chaos. In many ways, they were similar to SJR's New Law and New Chaos ends. Abdiel and Dazai knew they would be defying the order set in place by YHVH, just as Zelenin does in New Law, but they make the sacrifice of being sinners to offer the world salvation.
The Chaos route is in many ways the same outcome as New Chaos, the extra-normal beings dictated as "demons" by YHVH's order allowed to reclaim their position as the gods of old.
Yes I understand the slight nuance to Abdiel's decision, it just falls flat since she dies almost immediately and accomplishes close to nothing after coming to that decision. Chaos is more understandable in this game thought like I said the actual ending itself is disappointing
@@Tony4You While it is kind of...funny in a sad way how Abdiel dies immediately on the Law ending, I feel like the point hits harder on the other endings, where they display a willingness to break the taboo in order to have the power to stand against you.
Amazing video. Something that I've been thinking about regarding quote on quote "alignment" endings even in games outside of SMT is just how some options may seem biased towards is just how up to interpretation or open ended the ending can be; it's why I think OG Strange Journey endings don't have that sense of bias compared to the others since there's some degree of uncertainty in each ending.
Absolutely agree, a lot of endings diverge from characterization and story. Strange Journey will remain one of the few RPGs with almost perfect decision making
I get happy every time a new Tony4You video drops, and god damn, this was a wonderful one.
It really shows how much work went into making this.
That means a lot, thank you! This was a real passion project and has been in the works for a while
As a newcomer to SMT, I found your catalogue of the mainline games' endings to be very helpful.
I will say that I do think that the endings in SMTV are hit or miss (at least in my opinion). I honestly really like the True Neutral ending. I think the Chaos one is okay, but Law and normal Neutral are pretty bad (especially the latter).
I will admit my stance on the True Neutral ending has been in large part shaped by the biases of SMTV's story, which I really wish wasn't as strong. The other alignment reps could've been so much better in my opinion. Especially Law.
Edit: also, I found the Freedom ending of SMTIII badass. It’s has a lot of the undertones that made me like the True Neutral ending of SMTV, but better executed if you ask me.
I'm curious what you don't like about Law. For most of the game, Law and True Neutral have the same motivations:
Lahmu shows up, reveals how powerful Nahobinos are, kills a bunch of humans, and you barely stop him. For the rest of the game, both Law protagonist and True Neutral protagonist are trying to stop the rest of Bethel from turning into Nahobinos and plunging Earth into never-ending war. Chaos by contrast is perfectly fine with a new age of Nahobino as long as the player gets to be the strongest one, and that just sounds really evil and bleak to me
@@TheRoboKitty Yeah, but the angelic choirs treat you like trash for the entire game, saying that your existence as a Nahobino is a blasphemous one regardless of the fact that you're on their side. And they go out of their way to state in some dialogue that if humans have fallen pray to the monsters, they should just be killed on sight like they tried to do with Sahori during the demon raid on Tokyo.
Plus there's the idea of humanity not needing to think for themselves, only show devotion through their faith. That doesn't sit right with me. I just see it as humans' individuality being completely erased in the name of security.
Also, fair point about the Chaos route. That's something I never really considered when ranking the r rings. My main ire with the Chaos ending is the idea that "multiple gods are better than one" take made by the reps. YHVH is bad enough in my book, but multiple selfish gods waging war is equally absurd to me as a Neutral sympathizer.
@@jj_grabes Definitely some fair points on your end too. The part about the mercy kill never really phased me because the angels aren't so douche-y they actually want to do it. No, they understand that saving humans is the best result, and only advocate euthanasia if rescue is impossible (which in the case of Lahmu, it was impossible). But them treating the player like dirt? Yeah that does tie into Law's one genuine character flaw in this game: the angels are stuck in the past. Everyone else knows it's time for moving on. Even Law protagonist knows it's time to move on from the unsustainable truce of Bethel and reevaluate what it means to keep the peace
notice how he describes Strange Journey as something good, and blames Redux for painting it as evil... when the ORIGINAL version of game itself already shows how creepy and extreme the outcome is.
Tony is lying to you, both Chaos and Law are Bad Endings in the classic original version of Strange Journey
@@akiradkcn I gotta agree with this. Flooding the world only for a select few to survive is just insane.
one small gripe I've had with smt as a whole is the characterization of the main four angels. aside from a few minor differences and appearances their characters are basically just "holy holy worship god or things are gonna get gory!"
here's how I would personally portray them.
Michael: I'd say give him a bit or a tired war veteran vibe. years upon years of unending conflict leaves him tired, the losses he's seen snuffed out by the forces of chaos and order and his own hands makes crave for this war to finally end, and if they do succeed, he wishes for a world of no conflict. A world where no man slaughter one another, and for that he continues to fight for his god see that world realized.
Gabriel: I'd probably give her sort of a mother and daughter dynamic with Maria. Fighting to see a world where Maria can know peace, where she can rest easy and live her life with her. guarding her from others and seeing that chaos does not succeed, and that God may create that world of peace and tranquility.
Raphael: tldr: "we're angels we're meant to be expendable." "not to me."
Uriel: I'm not fully sure what you could do with him, but perhapse incorperate the banishment of Adam and Eve into it in some way?
That's an interesting take, ngl.
That also reminds me that we kinda got some individual characterization with at least Gabriel in SMT2. She was the only one of the Archangels who found out about the fake YHVH and was the only one of the four still alive at the end of the Law ending. She acknowledges that what YHVH was doing was wrong, then leaves.
It's not a lot, but I found it interesting that she went off on her own.
I want to say that I think she was also the only one who seems apprehensive about making a Messiah.
Is Raphael the one saying “not to me” or is that is the player?
@@AlecEburhard Raphael
I personally view Uriel as the "youngest" of the Four Archangels, and imagine him as someone who seeks to prove his worth to God and his fellow angels.
@@christopherbravo1813 Seems right to me.
I’m holding out hope for an SMT V deluxe/revision that expands on the story to fix pacing, and to explore chaos+neutral (perhaps by employing Tao or Miyazu better in the story to do so)
Forgot miyazu even existed until i went for secret ending
I wish they were utilized more in SMTV. I love Miyazu so much, and I feel she could have had more input in the Secret Ending considering her role in the Khonsu sidequest.
And then the whole thing with Tao could have also been better. Like...maybe incorporating her better in one of the endings (maybe Law since she's technically Law aligned for some reason?).
Better be a free update. SMTV was my first SMT game the the story is shit, Alignment system is weak af. I was expecting better
@@Kallen50000 Shouldn't have come into a mainline SMT game expecting a good story or characters, that was your first mistake lol.
Well, in two months we will see how much it will improve
Devil Survivor has been the best way to tackle the endings in the series and it's criminal they haven't replicated it since.
Thank you for including a section regarding Japan and Christianity. It's very interesting how Law in SMT and the strongest characters in the series are associated with Abrahamic religions. The alignment system has so much potential for more depth, I would love to see more moral ambiguity in the different endings.
Lady Virgilia did a fantastic job eh? Glad you enjoyed the video!
One of the best Tony4You I've ever seen tbh. The LadyVirgilia explanation was great too!
Thanks so much, this was a big departure from my usual content so I hope people enjoy it!
The problem is that a lot of them basically break down to:
Law: “there are some situations where free will and freedom are bad” (objectively bad take)
Chaos: “killing is fun and sticking it to the man rules” (objectively unhinged take)
Neutral: “this is either the best parts of both of the other two philosophies…..or the worst parts” (either painfully obvious that it’s the ideal option, or it’s even worse than the prior two somehow)
The neutral case is even worse when you get a strange journey redux case that makes the neutral path seems completely pointless, as humanity never seems to learn their lesson, I'd much rather have it left up in the air, as in "We don't know if humanity will learn form their mistakes, but there is still hope..."
Thanks for the video man, I've been waiting for this!
I'm personally aligned to Law but it seems very dirty how they write it in many of the alignments. It was a great video and the guest appearance from Lady Virginia was a freak addition I did not expected but welcome highly. I hope to see more from you in the future, and to a better Law representative in the next SMT
Fantastic video to both Tony and Virgilia. I was very into SMT V upon release, but after the honeymoon phase with the game I realized how shoddy the story was. Maybe it was the influence from other reviews I watched, like Marsh and Simply Dad’s. You seemed to note yourself how unfinished some characters’ arcs were in V’s story. Do you think they really told the story they wanted to in the final release? I can’t help but feel like coronavirus and the international release hampered the team’s ability to create what they had in mind. After watching breakdowns of SMT V’s development and story, I’ve also better framed my love for the game in terms of music and demon design. I just can’t help but feel like we lost the story we were meant to get somewhere in development hell.
Some interviews make it pretty clear that V's development was not smooth.
Biggest example I can think of is how Hayatoro, the doggo demon that its meant to be a japanese counterpart to Cerberus. Was meant to have a much bigger role in the story.
Smt 5 has really good concepts but doesnt really execute them well. I feel the story ended being fine but with alot of wasted potential you can tell it had developement hell
Thanks for watching and enjoying! I completely agree with SMTV's story, it seems half finished at most. It was a honeymoon for me bigtime as it was the first game I got early for the channel and while I didn't sing it's praises publicly too much, I personally had a falling out of love with the game over the following months. It isn't a bad game by any means, just disappointing. Narrative wasn't their main priority, maybe not even their secondary or tertiary priority lol
@@kuraux56s59 Hayataro could have been an early concept, not necessarily cut content.
I think Amanozako role in the story is the best example to use in this situation: her role in the story was expanded and changed when they were already recording the English voice acting, which usually happens at the end of the development of a game.
@@strell3639 This is the first time I heard that about Amanozako.
I think SMTV's Neutral and Secret should have been swapped. Something like this:
Neutral: I destroy all demons, thinking it the only way to reject both God's Order and Tsukuyomi's anarchy.
Secret: I learned through my quests that there is good in demons as well. In order to give everyone freedom, I opt to destroy the Throne.
That sounds way better.
Agreed. The Secret Ending feels like Genocide... because it is.
An ending that deals directly with the demon invasion might be cool
Law: offers protection/sanctuary from demons
Chaos: seeks to live amongst and control demons
Neutral: seeks to banish/destroy demons outright
Great video! Would love more nuanced alignments especially with Law in future games, though I admit I loved the Strange Journey Redux take where the new Law ending is a humanity-law focused alignment instead of going the same route other Law alignments do with the same God rules all focus. More options in games would always be great and it'd be nice to get to actually consider what ending I want without gravitating to neutral every time because the others are just so insane or off putting.
nearly an hour of tony4me, I MEAN tony4you? It's going to be a good day
Wonderful video again! I always get anxious when I see SMT/Persona videos of this length but again you prove to be the cream of the crop and gave a very satisfying video. Wish I could have more. Having this play on my phone while playing elden ring was a comfy mood.
Thanks so much! I try to be as straight forward as possible in my videos, but this was the first video in a long time that was almost fully my opinions. I'm so happy people are enjoying it and hope to make more in this style
YHVH is not ruthless cause he "hates humanity" but more like one who is "ruthlessly and extremely lawful". They just removed his "benevolent" moniker which is actually fitting.
Other than that not considering SMT IV gray ending and considering SMT III reasons "lawful" did increase the number of "bad endings" assigned to law.
Honestly, as much as I appreciate the idea of not portraying God as wholly good (Mainly due to the West being very apprehensive to ever paint God in a different light), I do actually agree that making him wholly totalitarian is sad. I want an SMT game where God genuinely is a good entity, one looking out for humanity and trying to help people in the way he believes best. I don't believe God would kill people for simply not believing in him, or even worse yet, for simply existing somewhere.
Imagine SMT4 but instead of Merkabah straight up killing everyone, they work to 'cleanse' the filth away from Tokyo. Flynn and Jonathan work to spread the idea of mercy and togetherness. They work to stop anarchistic demons from outwardly causing havoc, all the while still emphasizing the idea of a holy kingdom which would still drive Walter away due to his biases born from an unjust caste system. Eventually it would end with Mikado and Tokyo merging together and following the Order of God in ways that benefit others.
Imagine SMT4A where you go to fight God and instead of threatening you incessantly and throwing empty words at you, he genuinely attempts to make you understand his position and only fights back because you are actively attacking him. It can still end with his defeat, but with an emphasis on his forgiveness of your folly, of his love for you despite your wrongdoings and that if mankind shows it cannot handle the burden of a universe all its own, he would return to help guide them once again.
Im not saying Law needs to be overwhelmingly great comparatively, but I do think we should have some semblance of good feelings when going the Law route.
To be fair SMT IV chaos route is about as bad as the law one
the sad thing is there is a very logical explanation for his actions but its like they try to make it hard for people to understand
I know this won't happen, but I would love if SMT 6 went real hard on alignment routes and make a lock like 25% in and the rest of the game be drastically different depending on your alignment.
I'm also really fucking sick of these games having an ending that has more content than others.
Unfortunately Atlus seems to be going in the exact opposite direction, lol. Now only like, the last 5% of the game is after the alignment lock.
While this sounds like a cool idea on paper, if you actually had to code such a game you'd quickly find it a herculean task. Imagine for a moment essentially making 3 entirely different games for a single release. It would be a logistical nightmare.
I think locking chaos/neutral/law at 25% and then having the rest of the game being what kind of chaos/neutrality/law you want is a pretty interesting idea. If you go this route if you could you end up fighting people from your own alignment who's ideal form of chaos/neutrality/law differs.
@@HunterStiles651 I'd settle for something akin to Three Houses. that game is basically SMT done better.
@@HunterStiles651 Basically asking to create a visual novel with the gameplay quality of AAA game
It could work but it will be pain to create
The Neutral Bias for SMT IV is so bad that the plot of SMT IV Apocalypse is the idea that your interference as Nanashi by him basically becoming what is seen as in SMT V as Nahobino is what causes there to *not* be a Neutral ending. So the Flynn of that timeline would've done the Neutral Ending if you didn't interfere and work with either Vishnu or Dagda.
44 MINUTES OF TONY GOODNESS?!?!?!?
OH MAN, THIS WILL BE AN ABSOLUTE W OF A VIDEO LET'S GOOOO!!!!
Love your content tony!
Definitely the most well-made video I've seen on SMT's alignments, period. You've absolutely outdone yourself here
Wow thanks a lot! I'm glad this super long video payed off lol
This was a great analysis and I mostly agree with everything said here though I do disagree in some areas,
SMT3 Neutral Freedom: I don't really consider it going against God considering that as Kagutsuchi himself notes, its the option The Great Will himself chose before and the choice still is part of the cycle of rebirth, albeit a reset.
SMTSJ Law: While I do also dislike the new ending, especially making Mastema a enemy, (though to be fair Chaos did reveal he wasn't really on Heaven's side and was instead motivated by a desire to achieve a form higher than the other angels) I disagree with everything said about YHVH. Sheinkah while a fellow avatar, is not YHVH and instead usurped his position so she could rule. You can do a sidequest in new game plus where you can either free YHVH who in this game has been split into Metatron and Demiurge or reseal him under the command of a mysterious female voice. (who could be either Mem Aleph or Sheinkah) If freed this version of YHVH is the one of his rare benevolent incarnations and actively joins you if Law (allowing you to have a YHVH vs Sheinkah fight) or just says he'll protect humanity if Neutral.
SMTIV Law: I'm honestly confused as I saw almost none of this from my playthourgh of Law. (though I do agree that the Law choices don't sync up with the alignment lock, going from moral and life persevering to the lock's Utilitarianism) The angels did not create the caste system (It was Aquila) and once freed do away with it the first chance they get, with the support of the majority of the population (who are neither brainwashed nor fearful) of Mikado. (the exception being a few Luxors who don't want to lose their power and are dealt with when they try to rebel) Along with a plan to bring up some tech from Tokyo, (which succeeds if you do the side quest) originally there was a plan to save some people from Tokyo according to Merkabath but Walter under the command of Lilith opened the Expanse, causing the already demon infested Tokyo hit critical mass, which if not taken care of quickly would break into the completely demon free Mikado. Flynn and Merkabah allow themselves to be killed because of the genocide they recently committed, while the rest of the angels depart Mikado to allow humans to rule themselves, with the ending outright showing a everlasting actual utopia, unlike SMT1's hope for a better future or SJ's required brainwashing.
On a side note, a another criticism I personally have with Law is that group as a whole is based around Utilitarianism, which not only has no connection with Christianity, seems to be the main cause of the majority of problems everyone has with the Law alignment.
Woah, I didn't know about that sidequest, and I was planning to do a Law NG+ playthrough of SJR later this year. What's the quest called?
Also, I think the utilitarianism is based on Old Testament stories like Noah's Arc, where God literally wiped out almost all of humanity.
@@ltb1345
(From the Wiki) False god in chains
Availability: After completing EX Mission The mother goddess' gravestone, Metatron will issue this EX Mission.
How to complete: Find and destroy Demiurge in Grus B4F. You need Enemy Search C to be able to fight him.
Reward: Chakra Elixir and Demiurge fusion; if in Law path, possibility to let a Demiurge join you
The mother goddess' gravestone
Availability: On Grus' Sanctum A, a door is guarded by a Power. On a New Game+, the Power will be gone and a Strike Team member will be in his place. After completing Jack's Squad Pacification mission, talk to him.
How to complete: Find and destroy Alilat in Grus 1F, by heading through the doorway the crewman is standing by. You need Unlock E to even open the door and begin exploring.
Reward: Nabatea Stone forma (creates Scanning Zero or Columbus Sub-App) and unlocks Alilat fusion
I hope you have fun!
My issue with law is always the Christian-theming. The only time I have been tempted towards law is Devil Survivor 2 with Ronaldo making a utilitarian argument completely unrelated to christianity.
Generally I am a utilitarian "losing negative freedoms is worth gaining positive freedoms" type of guy. But fck Yaweh and anything related to him.
I think the connection between Christianity and utilitarianism is clear. If God really is all knowing, all powerful, and knows the exact solution to any possible problem, then the only surefire way get ultimate peace and prosperity in the most efficient way would be to follow God's word to a T. Essentially giving up any choices you could have made to God. It's just the logical outcome to a perfect leader that knows the answer to literally everything.
that bit about how "the Law choices don't sync up with the alignment lock, going from moral and life persevering to the lock's Utilitarianism" is something that's always stood out to me in the series as a whole, like when you make decisions the kind, merciful, and peaceful options almost always give you points towards Law, but then when you get to the endgame it's all genocide and mind control. It's like the games abruptly swap from "God according to Sunday School" to "God according to r/atheism"
There's a lot to unpack here, but one thing I find interesting re: Lady's section. The Japanese loanword for Christianity when it was first introduced was "kirishitan", written in kanji as 吉利支丹 (luck-benefit-support-red earth (?) not sure on the last one). Once the Shogunate persecuted it, it started being written as 鬼理死丹 ("oni ideology death earth") or 切死丹 ("sever death earth"). Kanji languages have this unique way to add bias to words that you don't get in western languages, I've heard of other examples such as certain Chinese tribes having their names written with the "dog" radical at one point in history.
Alignments are interesting in theory but often are dragged down by the writers' biases. But in general I find that every individual has such different views of what "Law" and "Chaos" actually are that it's impossible to write for them well as bias will ALWAYS get in the way. I can even see this in the comments with how differently people here view Law and Chaos.
For me personally, they can be summed up as "Put the needs of others over yourself" vs "Emphasise personal freedom over the needs of others.", with their extremes devolving into something resembling Communism and Fascism respectively, but that's not how a lot of people see it given how much Law is equated with Fascism and Chaos with "pure freedom with no downsides." I don't know how much of this is due to my upbringing, as I've heard Australian culture is considered to value egalitarianism and is not as staunchly freedom-focused as the US (we're definitely western and individualistic, but not very anti-authoritarian).
...Its kind of scary how the nuances and double meanings in writing kanji can be used for a racist mentality.
@@kuraux56s59 There's quite a long history of it too. I find it interesting as someone who's studied language, and also very sad of course. Western languages have slurs but they're often their own words. While with Kanji, you can turn something into a slur and still have it pronounced the same way through character choice.
@@BigKlingy Indeed. And its pretty twisted, seriously. Whoever came up with the idea of using Kanjis in such a mocking manner... I hope they got their just desserts in whatever afterlife they are in.
The thing that strikes a chord with me about even some of SMT's more critical portrayals of the law alignment isn't just "religion=bad", which may seem to be the core idea of many entries, but that can also be a surface-level interpretation of something deeper. The series has stated a few times that the gods and demons seen in the games arise from mankind's many facets and desires, which is why many of the most powerful figures can never seem to be defeated once and for all. Thus, the incarnations of YHVH seen in SMT are also beings that reflect an aspect of humanity. I view the games in which the big man Himself is simply not present-or not in a way that's obvious-as some of the most compelling for this reason.
In SMTIV, the archangels and their order are definitely shown to be comically hostile and merciless, but this works when they only CLAIM to serve the interests of God, who remains suspiciously absent. God is alluded to, but is never seen or confirmed to be in His true form with the player's own eyes. In the chaos and neutral endings, you don't have the honor of fighting Him, but rather, a messenger of dubious nature. For that reason, I see IV's depiction of law as a great showcase of the dangers of fundamentalism, which can lead to mere mortals developing their own god complexes.
Then I have plenty of issues with Apocalypse's story, and of course "you're cool dude who gets to face off with THE God this time!" is undeniably fan service, but even that doesn't come off as too cheesy to me. Nanashi and Flynn are plainly referred to as Messiahs, who are sent by none other than the Great Will to overthrow the doctrine implied to be a reflection of some humans' desires. So that manages to continue at least some of the concepts found in the original IV, albeit with much more spectacle than elegance. Persona 3 may take the role as the most obvious "Christian video game", but the subtext can certainly be found in mainline SMT as well, which many fans may not be ready to really see when the series has garnered such a reputation for some seemingly superficial edge.
SMT V does have another interesting take on Law or Chaos early on in the game. You have the choice between Apsara who's stated goal is to protect weaker demons but stunts their ability to grow. Or Leanan, who's stated goal is to build up weaker demons into something that can function in the world on their own. They claim each other are bad for the demons under their care so it's up to the player to decide which they value more. Security or independance.
Yeah, I sided with Leanan Sidhe there.
"I'm not implying that the Abrahamic God of real life and YHVH of SMT are interchangeable. Of course they aren't, this is a video game with it's own lore."
Thank you for that, I agree.
LOL yeah I had to put that in incase people thought I was going crazy. After this video though maybe I am
YHVH, ywhach, god of Christianity, islam, and Judaism are all the same thing, the bible is the same just modified slightly between the three religions.
@@gejamugamlatsoomanam7716 Not really. While the Tora and Bible are similar, the Q'Ran is basically Mohamades fanfiction.
@@gejamugamlatsoomanam7716 They are not the same. Christianity is an extension of Judaism, but modern day Judaism rejects Christianity by rejecting anything that happened in the New Testament. Islam is Muhammad's twisting of Biblical stories he heard when he visited Israel, saw how powerful Christianity was at gaining followers, and wanted that same power for himself.
@@DRYstudios1994 It depends. The implementation of the god figure in the three Abrahamic religions differs, but as they all go off the Torah/Old Testament as an origin the described personality traits of the supreme being are identical. The NT does not really change this interpretation, it simply makes God more 'inaccessible' and focuses more on Jesus and (to a lesser extent) prophets. Overall, he is fairly consistent (omni and scriptural contradictions aside).
Great video. It really sheds a light on why the law alignment in SMT is always portrayed the way that it is. It also helps with understanding why they went with the themes of polytheism vs. monotheism for SMT V, as it is a more interesting topic in a region where Christianity isn't the de facto religion. The story is still deeply unsatisfying, but the endings do give people with a mix of different opinions at least one ending they'll be satisfied with.
Loved the insight into each games bias. Wasn’t expecting the history lesson at the end but it was actually very interesting
Associating YHVH with the law route is a bad idea to begin with. It makes sense on paper, god being the embodiment of law in Abrahamic religions, but it results in all kinds of contradictions unless you make law the default 'good' ending.
I've always figured the routes have nothing to do with good or evil, rather:
Law = total order at the cost of individualism;
Choas = ultimate freedom at the cost of empathy;
Neutral = The middle road, or humanity at its core. With all flaws and beauty kept as is.
I love this breakdown, and it's really nice to get a bit of context with the Japanese history. It seems I view the series as a whole in a completely different way, which has made me look back at some of it in a new light. This could be an amazing discussion in a lot of ways. Thanks!
I have always had a Chaos bias despite the issues present in it (such as the survival of the fittest, easy means to suppress humans, etc). One game I actually like this in is IV, not because Lucifer himself is necessarily appealing, but because I felt Chaos Akira had a better chance at creating a truly equal and fair world for everyone than Law Akira or the Neutral route. It just felt like a world where, sure, there may be a great deal of chaos and uncertainty for a while, but such freedom also grants the potential for an individual who will truly unite and work toward a world of peace to exist someday. And when it comes to ideal worlds, you have to think beyond your scope.
Issues... More like reasons why Chaos will always be better than Law.
Only the foolish believe that they can change the world. Survival of the fittest is merely an objective feature of humanity. I refuse to bow down to any god, nor would I coexist with idealistic fools like Akira. I'd rather focus on myself and my own freedom than bother saving a fleshbag.
@@anayos6726 But what if you get mortally wounded, and the nearest guy would also rather focus on himself and his own freedom than saving a fleshbag?
I loved all the routes on SMTIV and I'd even go as far to say it's my second favorite in the series after SMTII. It helped that the story, music, demon designs, etc were all great. SMTIV was the reason I purchased a 3DS and I didn't regret that purchase. I probably put around 800 hours in that game and a solid 500 in Apocalypse. I enjoyed SMTIII as well but I'd say SMTII is my favorite followed by SMTIV, and then SMTIII as my top three.
Still crazy how the only good law ending is SJ Redux
Great video. I myself have a bias against law because of how Yahweh and the biblical teachings was portrayed to me in my Catholic/Christian upbringing and found it deplorable. Interesting to see how culture plays a role in how religions are portrayed in media.
Most law endings bring Heaven on Earth. I, at first, was like you in that regard, but my favorite political ideologies became fascism and monarchy. Overall, at this point God is executing judgement on those who did not receive Him. God has three aspects to Him: Judgement, Mercy, and Grace. The grace and mercy period has passed, and now final judgement shall pour upon those who did not accept Him. Overall, The Most High governs over all thing and He is King.
@@jasonenns5076 😬
@@jasonenns5076 Then you should know you worship a jewish god within a zionist religion, created to control us. We HAVE to return to our roots spiritually.
@@georgelincolnrockwell6248 Stop it, wignat (wigger nationalist). I dispise paganism.
Don't worry about it man, Modern Catholics and Christians don't even know what they are saying anyways, Due to how much they have corrupted the bible to fit their own twisted narratives and hatred towards anything they don't like
Another great video. You made some great points about all of the games. I think SMT V's hidden ending is my favorite. Beating back the demons and angels to protect humanity is one of my favorite parts about the series. Creating a world for humans, and nothing more, without gods and deities getting in the way. I do think it is weird how the requirement for the ending where you wipe out all demons and gods was doing the side quests that involve helping the nicer demons though (except for Shiva)
How weird it is to get it aside, I can totally see why someone would like it. Like I said in the video it has the most finality and closure to it which is very rewarding
@@Tony4You I felt that the weirdness in how to get that ending is was neglected. For example, you have to do Amanozako's questline. After that, you decide to kill her to create the world for humans. You also help Miyazu and Khonsu find demon-human love, just to kill him too. I think that the consequences for the hidden ending should have these parties beg for their lives, which would add some hesitation to that final decision. Imagine Amanozako crying and begging for her life. Imagine Miyazu crying and begging for Khonsu's life. Choosing that ending would be a MUCH more difficult decision with input from the demons who don't wish to die. Imagine their arguments: committing demon genocide in order to create the world for humans only. Honestly, I'd probably prefer a different ending if the game did this.
@@Tony4You Well I hate it. Feels like Genocide.
There's one thing about SMT 1 that still bothers me to this day. Considering God's interpretations throughout all of the SMT series, the intro to the first one always baffles me. After naming your character and dividing up your stat points God gives you a very clear objective:
"Beyond this door, both those chosen by God that follow the path of Law and Order, and those that rely on their own power that follow the path of competition and Chaos await you. Be careful not to tip the balance between the two as you proceed..."
I don't know if its due to the English translation of the game or what, but its such a clear contradiction of the way he's portrayed in later titles. Hell its a contradiction to his characterization in Megami Tensei 2 as well. Why would the head of the Law faction encourage you down the Neutral path? Maybe that's not God talking to you? Despite being depicted like him in every other game, the game never does specify if that's God or not. I don't know if I'm missing something or I'm overthinking it, but this has always bugged me.
Very interesting. It's hard to understand why, but I never thought the voice in the beginning was God. I always thought it was a proto great will (developer voice) speaking to you. If it is God it's a very understanding God lol
@@Tony4You yea im pretty sure its the great will and nit God
@@beanieboi7743 If it is the great will, then I find it interesting that it would bare a likeness to God in SMT. Or is it potentially, the other way around?
That dream sequence in general was never explained lol, why was heroine about to be sacrificed and why was law hero on the cross and chaos hero with a demon
@@FlynnMegaTensei law hero was on the cross as he was a new "messiah" and was sacraficed much like jesus, chaos is a demon due to fusing with one
I really like how Neutral works in both SMTIV and SMT Strange Journey.
Neutrality could come from different points of view. Either you don't care (White Ending), you do not understand the conflict enough or aren't trully sure of what to choose (Isabeau as a Character, and Demon Ending on SMT3) or total willingles to keep figthing by yourself, in a battle that you don't even know that when or even, can be won (Freedom Ending in SMT3, and how ambigous the SMTIV neutral ending is).
I've seen arguments that Nyx and Izanami from Personas 3 and 4 are examples of 'bad neutral', since they're representations of apathy and wilful ignorance respectively
I played P3 long ago so I dont remember much of the motivation on Nyx. But I would put Izanami more on a law term. I think her approach is pretty similar to Yaldabaoth (this one way more on the end of the spectrum tho), although applied in a different way. I.e. a greater force/deity forcing "humanity desire" into people, apart from conflict and problems, basically to live peaceful here-and-after (via apathy and via alienation respectively).
@@hikarikyuubi3906 Nyx is essentially a force of nature that accepts the darkest desires of humanity (nihilism), and thus aims to fulfill those desires - and Ryoji/Death is the catalyst for this
Law ending in SMT I is super underrated. Then again, SMT I is underrated in general
I did Law ending in 1 with angels in my team. Best choice ever.
Unfortunately I found SMT I miserable to play. I'd love a remake.
@@ltb1345 I personally love the Jank. It gives it a certain surreal atmosphere, that could never be replicated with modern videogames with barely any limitations present.
The "arealism" of most places just being very low detail wallpapers pasted over and over makes it feel somewhat dreamlike.
I disagree with SMT4's chaos ending being a bait and switch. it was pretty heavily foreshadowed with blasted tokyo/infernal tokyo how law and chaos both start out as hopeful ideologies (with each version of tokyo's respective akira genuinely wishing to better the world through either law or chaos as a reaction to what alignment destroyed tokyo), but that they have pretty grim outcomes when taken to their extremes. We see this progression in both the law and chaos routes. Law starts out being about preserving the peace of mikado, and ends with genocide of tokyo to get rid of god's enemies. Chaos starts out being about judging people through merit and fighting oppression, and ends with the eternal power struggle of anarcho monarchism. While it may seem sudden (since the route split is so late in the game), i feel as though the ending presented in the chaos route is simply the logical extreme of that ideology. SMT4 as a whole i feel makes a pretty powerful statement about the dangers of ideological extremes, with three out of the four endings being pretty objectively bad endings. This comes at the cost of a more interesting alignment choice though, i agree.
This was an amazing video, Tony! Great job and well worth the wait!
The alignment system in SMT (both mainline and spin-off) are one of my favorite aspects of the games. You get to decide how the world should change based on your beliefs and the people that you ally yourself with in order to achieve that change. Yet I agree with you, sadly many of the endings in the main SMT games have heavy biases that end up taking away from that type of choice.
Like, realistically if I were in these situations, I would end up siding with the Law alignment because ultimately I want people to be safe and to live in peace. Many people do not deserve to suffer, and it makes me sad to see that the worst suffering comes from other people and especially the people who are supposed to keep us safe. So to see me making choices in these games that I think will protect even the most helpless, only to get jebaited when it turns out the God who's supposed to bring that salvation is a tyrant who wants nothing but subservience and the destruction of his detractors in exchange for that peace just does not sit right with me at all. Chaos sometimes appeals to me when it allows people to have freedom without having to completely dissolve into a horrific "might makes right" mentality, but several ends (especially IV's Chaos ending) just kinda leaves me with a bad taste as well. It's for those reasons that I tend to prefer Neutral, but even I can see how short-sighted some of the endings can seem.
Also, I loved LadyVirgilia's segment on Christianity in Japan. Christianity in Japan is such an interesting topic because how differently the introduction of Christianity ended up playing out. I'll admit, I didn't know a whole lot about this topic save for the little I found out when researching Amakusa Shiro Tokisada (which btw Tony you should make a video on as this pertains to what LadyVirgilia had talked about in this video's segment), and also because I have a largely Western look on Christianity. I grew up in a Mexican Catholic family and currently live in Utah, who's major religion is Mormonism (and boy howdy do I hate so much about the LDS church...it is not pleasant....), so my view on Christianity is influenced a lot by that upbringing and where I currently live. I've seen and heard about how Religion was used to subjugate native peoples by suppressing their own religion without truly understanding their culture, or how religious laws can often oppress others who do not follow that particular religion. It's a part of that history that is hard to process sometimes, but shouldn't be ignored. Hearing a scenario where that didn't play out, but unfortunately also ended up badly for the people who practiced that religion is pretty eye opening. Religion and its relationships to both the cultures it originated it and the cultures it was introduced in is a very complicated subject, but it's one that I think many people need to understand. Especially in SMT's case when it straight up uses the names of various deities and the Abrahamic God.
I hope that maybe one day the writers for SMT6 or whatever can maybe get the input from an outside perspective on alignments, especially Law. It would definitely give a lot of nuance to all alignment endings and hopefully make it feel like you could realistically choose any ending that won't completely go against your ideals. Law without complete subservience, Chaos without the survival and subjugation, and Neutral where you truly can feel like humanity can be autonomous. All with compelling characterization for the characters representing those alignments; human and demon alike....
A person could dream............
I doubt Atlus will give Law any more respect than V, considering the collectivist society that they live in. Realistically all routes have flaws, though Chaos/Neutral are simply the representations of human nature meanwhile Law pertains to this belief that humans are all equal: they're not. There is no such thing as peace and equality among beings such as gods. YAHVH himself proves this
I'm glad someone else actually likes the normal neutral ending in smt 5 besides me, just feels like no one cares about mainly because true neutral exist and is harder to get. I like it more then true neutral because just erasing the demon problem and reverting back to how things where does not seem to give more room for humanity to grow compared to humanity trying to find it's way despite the demons and now no longer having a threat of a god taking the throne and shaping the world (while I do wish you got another boss fight like the other 3 endings, if they really don't want you to destroy the throne they should make a better attempt at actually stopping you)
Law always being bad is really annoying as they usually are either kill everyone or brainwash everyone or a combination of the 2 so it's kind of predictable. The actual ending to law in smt 5 I think was better then chaos but yeah the story is all over the place, law is at its best when it's as far removed from yhvh as possible. I think the only law route in smt game I chose as my ending was devil survivor 1 it was one of my first smt games and is still one of my favorites
Chaos/Neutral is merely the acceptance of human nature.
Law believes in farces like equality and peace, although humans, demons, even angels themselves weren't created equal. And never WILL be. Humans must accept the world as is, although they may change paradigms, methods and ideals.
It seems the ideology of Chaos/Neutral are more suited towards individuals rather than authority, which I enjoy more than any future ideals Law has to offer
@@anayos6726I don't think a chance to develop humanity's "potential" is worth an eternity of suffering and conflict.
I don't like Law as much as I seem to, but I vastly prefer it over the alternative.
Chaos is barbaric and modern Neutral is the epitome of self-worship, which leads to pride, arrogance, and the exact same series of events that led to God's intervention in the first place.
i like how in smt iv to get the law ending you have to be a good person the whole game, then the moment you get locked, boom, genocide
At the same time you could potentially argue that the plan to kill all of the below Tokyo is an act of God's mercy due to realizing how miserable everyone is.
Though this is a heavily devils advocate position.
I think it’s hilarious how you tend to have to play Devils Advocate for many Law Endings.
Please talk about all the endings in the spin off games too! Devil survivor, persona etc. I’d love to hear your takes
One major point I wanted to respond to:
The very nomenclature of the "YHVH alignment" as "law" indicates authoritarianism, at least in some sense, as its focus. I don't find a bias towards or against authoritarianism to be surprising or necessarily reflective of a bias for/against any particular religion, in which case maybe the problem you're identifying isn't that law is commonly the worst alignment - it's the persistent depiction of the Abrahamic God as the focal point of law/authoritarianism, in which case that might be an artifact of the mythos' choice to adopt Abrahamic religion as the dominant religious backdrop in most of the games (at least, the one standing above other religions in power).
The SMT3 analysis is particularly interesting in this regard - you identified Musubi as the "truest essence of law" with everyone becoming their own creator, when I think others might see that as the "truest essence of chaos/freedom" - everyone getting to live in their own world with absolute freedom. In contrast to Shijima, it does not have the authoritarian note of coercing uniformity, and it's unusual to call it "law" since while everyone can form their own rules in their own worlds, those are not really "law" - there are no true beings in those worlds to be bound by such "law" except the world's creator, who is not bound.
I thought that was weird too. Musubi just SCREAMS chaos.
Smt5 is one of the only mainline games, where i think law is the best ending for me. YHVH wasn't potraid like a villain in it.
I lover Law in SMTV, but like I said only the ending proper really hits home for me lol. Still a great interpretation, sad that only after YHVH is dead is he portrayed well
@@Tony4You I want YHVH to come back and reclaim His throne. He is the only one I would follow in SMT. I went Law in SMT1 from the very beginning and had angels in my team, so I am proud of myself.
@@TangensROH Profile pic checks out.
Probably because he's dead to begin with. He can't be a villain in a way if he's already fucking dead.
I'd love a follow up video where you dissect some of the spinoffs where you feel alignments were done better. If only because the world needs more Devil Survivor praise.
Always appreciate long-form content.
Keep up the good work Tony Forces of Good and Evil.
Thanks a lot for watching and enjoying. Longer videos are always nerve racking to release so I'm glad people like it
SPOILERS for Smt VV
So SMT5 Vengeance has an interesting solution to this by just cutting out the middle man and removing Neutral
I'm honestly okay with this. It also separated the 'real' Law ending from the Law FACTION, and you still fight Dazai and Abdiel even on the New Law route.
I really liked the new law ending in canon of vengeance
Considering What the Rep in Neutral is like in that game... Probably for the best to be honest.
@@BigKlingy Yep, and you ally with Tsukuyomi, while Nuwa is unceremoniously killed because, apparently, she forgot how to teleport.
@@georgemeyers7172We could have gotten a new neutral rep
Drink everytime Tony says *"LAW"*
You'll literally meet YHVH by the end.
Uh oh, because they drive places?
@@kertchu, exactly because of that my brother in Christ
The one thing I liked about SMTV's Law is the denialism showed by Abdiel, the "YHVH's totally not dead! He will eventually solve all of this! This huge problem you're all so afraid of totally isn't real!" It perfectly encapsulates the same mentality you see many modern religious nuts use in the face of big crises like the pandemic and climate change.
Issue is in terms of appeal, it really doesn't help persuade you to side with Law at all. Since it shows how ignorant and irresponsible the Law faction is without any real merits to back it up. Dazai's character being based around "hey someone please make all the decisions for me!" doesn't make it any more convincing either.
Not to mention as exactly as shown in SMTV, you literally cannot keep such kind of character viable into the end game, where it became undeniable that YHVH's dead and Abdiel and Dazai *has to make a decision for themselves,* especially when that decision comes in the form of them breaking YHVH's own law. It shows that Law is hypocritical and the rules are only to be followed when it suits them.
Okay to be fair in smt V
God is dead ded
So they have to do something
Personally, I like the chaos ending in SMTV, just because it points out the downsides of your choice well. Having and ending where you feel both fulfilled, but know that doing what you did caused something else, is something that I think is important. It makes you really think whether what your doing is worth the endless warring or removal of free will etc.
I can understand liking chaos in SMTV, most of my friends picked that ending. Having the pros and cons explained makes it feel more realistic and as you say fulfilling.
I don't find Chaos' cons to be all that damning compared to Law, I'd prefer endless warring over these pompous douchebags because at least you can do what you want.
This video pretty much sums up why I almost never choose the Law routes. The question of "Is losing free will and all potential for human advancement in exchange for eternal peace worth it?" Is an interesting one...but my answer is No, so that basically nullifies any interest in picking most Law routes. Shouldn't Law strive to restore the status quo? Return to the old world with no demons and with YHVH watching over humanity? And even as a Chaos advocate, this video made me realize that Lucifer generally just seems to be against YHVH and in favor of freedom for all...so why do Chaos endings always end in death and destruction? It's kind of disappointing that at this point when I boot up an SMT game, I'm already telling myself that I'm going for Chaos first, then Neutral and then Law just for completion sake because I just already know Law will be the least appealing option to me.
Yea the alignment and rep kinda messes with the worth of the alignment system. With chaos almost always ending as destruction kinda goes against lucifer who in most games champions freedom, which is why their should be variations on each alignment showing the potential ways it can go as chaos can depending how things go can create a great prosperous world but with the threat of potentially falling due to the grand freedom. Law could even go for a angle of potentially having no complete peace but great peace and freedom but laws keep people in check but laws are more flexible and isnt just about punishment. Really i think main issue is the way the routes are framed
This is a very good video, I enjoyed it a lot. This was a great look into the alignments and their real life contexts.
I kind of see why Law is almost always depicted in a negative way in SMT, how Christianity co-oped icons of local mythologies and smaller religions and turns them into demons or servants of the lord. There's the old testament where God was quite brutal. And as said in the video missionaries converted some of the population as a prelude to invasion. And finally, the crunch and its members can be quite corrupt and abusive with their power.
In smt lore, god is a jerk, he banished lilith just because she wanted equality with adam, banished adam and eve just because they gained knowledge and stopped being mindless drones like all the angels (except lucifer), brought the flood to kill all humans except noah and select few just because he could.
This is apt, Christianity has stolen things from all over the world in the past. It has justified killing in the name of god and simply no believing in the god can get you sent to hell.
Things like the book of Job show how it relies on Christians not knowing the truth.
Had Job known the truth about Satan being given Permission from God to be tortured to prove to Satan Job was faithful... Job would've lost his faith.
@@gejamugamlatsoomanam7716 That's not 'SMT lore', those are actual myths from the bible. SMT didn't create those stories.
@@Ergeniz This is not true, Lilith did *not* come from the Bible
Let me grab some snacks first cause this is about to get good
I'm largely a Chaos player when it comes to SMT so I tend to have a strong bias toward those endings, but some of the other endings can be interesting as well. On that note, I have a very different take on the Chaos ending from SMT V and I think it is the only positive ending in the game. Here is a comment I had written previously on the ending that had been pretty well-received, so I'll share it again in case anyone would like an alternate interpretation of it:
"This is the only ending in the game that I like. The conflict that comes immediately is not something that will necessarily go on for eternity. The world created in this ending is one where the potential for things to get better exists, but it is up to those participating in it to make that potential manifest. Under God's world of an imposed artificial order, that order came at the price of the potential for growth for humans, demons, and gods.
While the birth of the world of potential may seem messy, it also provides the opportunity for all beings to grow and become something better if they can find a way to reduce that conflict and learn to live with each other. Even if that chance isn't the greatest while gods are in conflict with one another, it is at least possible in this world while it was impossible within God's world.
That potential all depends on whether gods, demons, and humans are willing to grow up. If they don't, then they don't deserve the potential that is possible for them to have. Why I think this is better than the 'true neutral' ending is that this ending provides the opportunity for gods to be reunited with their Knowledge and that provides them with the resources to potentially have the perspective to guide humans and demons toward growth. Humans alone lack that information on the nature of reality and their growth would be much more slow as a result.
This of course then puts the burden of the actualization of that potential upon the gods. If the Nahobino found a way to end the Mandala System, then that would at least reduce the incentive in one way in which gods compete with one another for power. Should the gods that desire progress unite against those who want to act like barbarian warlords, then the possibility for reaching that potential will greatly increase. They should ideally also learn what not to do from God's example and realize imposing an artificial order for the sake of order will also remove the potential for growth for all things and will require authoritarianism to uphold that order.
So even if the chances for true growth seem small, at least they are a possibility in this ending. It would likely take a great deal of time for things to get better, but at least it remains as a possibility. After all, it was partially through the huge blow to the infrastructure upholding the order of the Middle Ages caused by the Black Plague that allowed for the innovations of the Renaissance to be possible and the process of revolution generally comes in the form of struggle. As Nietzsche said in Thus Spoke Zarathustra 'I say unto you: one must still have chaos in oneself to be able to give birth to a dancing star. I say unto you: you still have chaos in yourselves.' Lucifer seemed to understand this very well."
while I admire the effort and dedication needed to type this whole thing out twice in a row, as someone who vehemently disagrees with Nietzsche and has zero faith in mankind's potential let alone that of the false gods, I can't help but disagree.
I chime in with the simple fact that, the result of the True Neutral ending is what’s actually the reality of the world outside the game. There are no gods and monsters in existence. Yet humans still have beliefs, conflicts, progress and detriments.
I do think the existence of awesome being would be neat, but humans lacking understanding of reality is the very reason why they strive to achieve progress. In only a few centuries, humans have grown massively from what they were before. Even now the existence of devices like these came wholly into being in the blink of an eye. Slow? Perhaps in the zoomed out view.
Then again, humans have been progressing since they first emerged on the evolutionary cycle.
Plus, you - the Nahobino - still exist separately from your mortal self in the True Neutral ending. The Mandala System interrupted and altered by your interference. Except, it can’t fulfill your creation since to do that, it would have to write itself of existence and basically retcon the universe from Point Zero. All you’re doing in the TN is preserving mankind so they may live in safety and freedom until things break once more by the System.
(That said, while I got TN first, I think Chaos just in general sounds cool since all the gods get to be real and tangible presences).
@@cyndronix6785 I would say that saying that humans have been constantly progressing is an overly optimistic view. Humans have gone through social and technological regression many times throughout history, just look at how the classical West was killed by the forces that brought about the Dark Ages. There is technology from the ancient world that was advanced to the point where modern humans can't understand how it works or come close to replicating it.
The True Neutral Ending is the most bleak ending in the game. The Nahobino betrays his allies and commits genocide only to provide a brief break from conflict only to leave humans ignorant and weak for when the inevitable conflict comes. There are many worlds and universes in the SMT cosmos and it is only a matter of time before demons and gods make their way into the Nahobino's world again. So his effort will not only not achieve what he sought to do, but it will make things much worse in the future. He has probably actually doomed humanity to extinction in the future without realizing it.
The Nahobino's actions in this ending goes back to my earlier statement about social and technological regression. In SMT, having demons and gods around is part of the natural state of things and they also possess knowledge and abilities that humans lack but could potentially benefit from. This brings a huge potential for progress and this is the kind of reality that Lucifer had been fighting to bring back throughout the SMT series. That is why he always stressed bringing about a world of potential, so all living things have the potential to grow, thrive, and progress.
In the Chaos ending of SMT V, the Nahobino continues Lucifer's plan and returns things to their natural state. The conflict that happens is the conflict that will inevitably happen in any of the endings, but in this ending it is addressed head on so that things can improve after that conflict. Some might think different gods, demons, and humans finding a way to work together for mutual benefit and find a way to peacefully exist for the most part is impossible in SMT, but this actually happens in the Chaos ending of SMT II, which is the most postive, morally good, and happy ending in the entire series.
So the conflict that comes is to remove those who would be obstacles to that goal much like God had to be removed because he was the main obstacle to creating such a world because it would not allow him to have absolute power. So this is one of the reasons why the Chaos ending of SMT V is the only one in which a much better future has a real chance of becoming a reality.
While I do think it is unfortunate that the True Neutral ending will probably be considered the canon ending of SMT V, it would leave an interesting possibility for the Nahobino to show up in future SMT games as a tragic figure who is cursed with immortality and must forever live with the guilt of what he had done as well as how he doomed the very humans he was attempting to save. Maybe he could go insane from this or perhaps attempt to help another SMT protagonist to make sure that character doesn't make the same mistakes that he did.
@@ophidianmind333 Thinking humans constantly progressing is optimistic is completely wrong. It's a nice perspective that you think so - which if you don't mind, I believe is telling you're a good and cautious person - but it isn't at all optimistic.
Humans choosing to destroy technological and social progress doesn't mean they're regressing as humans. They're still advancing because unlike before, they have a new ground level to start from. By that I mean, the starting line isn't at sticks and stones. Progress is and will always be progress. Whether the steps are minuscule or grand.
I never said the Chaos ending was bad or not a happy ending, since I think it is. It just isn't the most pragmatic long-term solution. In order for other deities to breach Earth, they'd need to circumvent the new laws of reality and the Creator God, Nahobino protecting humanity.
Given the Nahobino's power+their dominion over their universe, they're pretty unstoppable. Likely that, if killed, Nahobino's law would revert and all the gods and monsters would return to existence just like how Nahobino restrictions were lifted once the previous god fell.
Meanwhile the Law ending would basically be a repeat of the game if not a quick destruction and the Chaos ending would lack that Reality Bock. However, it would have an entire planet to use as an army that's already coexisting. Basically, to me at least it's like this in terms of results: Chaos=TN>Neutral>Law.
I agree that having Nahobino show up in a later SMT game as either the tragic Creator God or as lore scraps after their death attempting to guide the next protagonist to better results would be sick though. I'd absolutely play that.
In the end though, Mandala System rules them.
This video got pretty preachy at the end, no pun intended.
Being honest from a perspective of having no bias towards any alignment, it doesn't feel like law is portrayed in a negative light like you say. It feels like one game focused on law(1), one chaos(2), one neutral (4), while the rest took an equal opportunity stance (5 strange, nocture). Even towards 5's secret ending I didn't see it as that bleak but more of a separation of worlds as opposed to full non existence due to the nature that the mc as a nahobino exists still, especially since yhwh couldn't erase the other gods only put them down. Just like real life we don't know if there's something beyond because a spiritual sense comes from each individual so saying that it takes away doesn't feel right considering a normal person in universe wouldn't know the difference of having real demons or not. As for yhwh any times he was portrayed as "obviously evil" usually had the other reps also portrayed as extremes unless the game was favoring them from the get go (2 immediately comes to mind in comparison to 4 for instance). And with how society functions today with parroting topics in order to fit in, the irony of law reps usually having a "hive mind" doesn't really strike me as overtly negative or vice versa with chaos reps social darwinism because again elements can be found in irl lives. Needless to say I agree that many wouldn't choose these option in the games but usually the portrayal of these reps are associated with games where they are extremes ie smt4
One of the most compelling video from you. The alignment bias is also nicely summed up too in a thought-provoking way... :)
I appreciate it, this was a video I sunk too much time into lol
@@Tony4You As a Christian, it is appreciated to see these issues tackled. SMT is a great series, but to see that it has some thought provoking philosophies makes me appreciate the series even more. 😍
I think the Neutral (secret) one is the best ending. And it is not even hard to understand why: There is nothing which splits humanity, therefore it's the best outcome. Removing the supernatural saves every human and allows the mc to live a normal live with his friends without grandiose delusions of supernatural beings. The side quests of the demons show precisely how in a world with massive amounts of "superpower-freedom" it is impossible to live happily. They are betraying/killing/enslaving each other because of their powers all the time.
i personally couldnt get behind smt1 and 2 gameplay, but hearing them described here makes me desperately want them to be remade so i could enjoy the great story without dealing with the outdated gameplay
Law Alignment feat:
A SMT mainline where YHVH needs to be revived through His Son taking his place.
That's right, calling out J.C. for this one. New Testament ass whooping.
No Gods, no masters!! Great video, I also was surprised by the bait and switch on SMT IV
CHAOS REIGNS! Thanks for watching!
God in SMT is based on Gnosticism Demiurge, a powerful figure who beleieved hinself as a supreme deity, so that's why he's a bad guy in SMT.
It was very clear in SMT Nine, in that game a figure called "Sophia" have a big roll in Natural ending.
gnosticism sucks and it's a heresy.
Ideal situation:
Law: Using control to enforce meaningful peace onto the world. It is important that this ending be absolute without wiggle room. To grant everlasting finality.
Chaos: Value personal freedom over all else. You do not guarantee anyone's safety or happiness, but you create a playing field where people can be rewarded for their merit.
Neutral: Unlike law and chaos, neutral should not offer as sound a solution to the games core conflict as either of them. Neutral is to stave off the issues for now or trade away an immediate problem for one a little more longterm. It's to hope, hope for something better. Even with no clear evidence that it'll ever get better. Law is for angels, pure and complete. Chaos is for demons, ambitious and varied. So it is fitting that neutral is for humans. It's the least powerful, the least definitive, the most risky, the hardest to achieve. It solves nothing, only kicking the can down the road, hoping humans might have a better solution one day. What could be more human than to struggle and hope?
SMT5 could have worked better if they 1) had characters travel with you through the areas. Yuzuru travels with you in area 1 when you meet up, there's no reason to split up. Area 2 Dazai comes with you to make up for failing to protect the school which builds on him going to Abdiel and law for strength, Yuzuru comes because he's worried about his sister and desires power to protect her and others leading to chaos, and Tao to save her friend. Tao dies and Dazai and Yuzuru are unable to protect her which push them further to law or chaos. Area 3 Dazai and Yuzuru travel with you, further in their ideals and beating the demon king the split happens and you pick a side 2) made the alignment lock before the fourth area, so then you could travel through it collecting the keys with your rep, allowing more development of the characters and ideologies. 3) made Dazai's turn make more sense by having him being manipulated/controlled/influenced by Abdiel like Sahori was by Lahmu. 4) had Miyazu be the neutral or true/hidden neutral rep. She wants to save people as a doctor, wants to be stronger and do more after having been kidnapped and failed to help Sahori. Teams up with Khonsu and goddess Tao. Also means they should have done more with Yakumo since he's so underused for an alignment rep
Honestly, I kind of feel the entire law vs chaos thing is kind of a holdover from the first SMT game where the entire point was mostly just that extremes are bad and neutral is the only sensible choice. Like, yeah, you aren't wrong that the messiahs aren't that evil in the first game... until you remember that the god they worship is the very reason why all of society got nuked in the first place. What with him using Thor to control America and getting them to nuke Japan (SMT 1 is weird). Which still basically turns the law ending into a pretty unambiguous "evil wins!" kind of deal.
With that said though, I do think some games handled it better than others. Strange Journey and Nocturne are both basically the same as SMT 1 insofar that neutral is really the only sensible choice (Though in both cases the updated rereleases significantly muddle things), but both do so in very different ways. Especially Strange Journey's highly ambiguous Lorax "Unless" ending. Devil survivors is also a great example, though obviously not a mainline game. It helps that the unambiguously worst ending in that game is technically neutral, or at least not law and chaos.
So, in my opinion, I would honestly say the main point to be made here is to focus on different themes. Law bad, and to a lesser extent chaos bad, has pretty much been done already. I'm not saying you have to do away with the sides entirely, but putting a new twist on them is kind of a necessity to not just make your game a repeat of SMT1 with even less ambiguity. At worst you end up with SMT4, where being really nice to everybody ends up with you killing anything. Which is a... somewhat questionable story direction.
My biggest problem with alignments in smt is representation
For as much as this series wants to present each route as a viable option and none of the three are explicitly good or evil.....they seem to loooooooooooove making the law route the most evil one
Kaneko's interviews about how he doesnt think he represented god as a villain.....literally most games in the series portray law as the genocidal evil option and make it so neutral and chaos are the two best routes to take.I get that Japan doesnt exactly like abrahamic religions and considering history some of it is justified........but its been a huge overgeneralization when it comes to how law is portrayed
Only devil survivor 1 seemed to have given law a fair shot as a route and even then it does fall into few of the same trappings as tje other games
You'd think this would be obvious but,not every christian is a genocidal crusader and christianity isnt the only abrahamic religion.
There is Judaism and Islam but Atlus mostly seem to take from the christian side of abrahamic history
100% agree with you :D. And one thing was funny to me when they explained Abdiels name in SMTV "Abdiel means Slave of God" or something. I think they refrence names like "Abdullah" which means Servant of God. Servants and Slaves have different definitions I would say. But they clearly overgeneralize abrahamic religion like you said :D Still love the games tho.
@@semiherdogan9862 smt is my favorite franchise which is why i expect more from a franchise that tries to portray itself with moral greyness
All I ask from Atlus is to at the very least do their due dilligence of research,while the percentage of abrahamic believers in Japan are low they still can try and consult muslim,christian and jewish people and experts just within Tokyo itself and it can make a world of difference
As a muslim myself i can tell you right now that we do live in peace with people of other beliefs and non religious people alike
Sure every religion has its extremists but those are the exception not the rule,and a government's exploit of a religion to further its power does not reflect how the religion operates either
Id love for a mainline smt game where law is either portrayed from its believers side and ask why their faith in God is as strong as it is and how they seek peace,rather than just confine the portrayal to the higher powers only and what the tyrants of history used it for,or at the very least present a different view of God that isnt the same genocidal view nearly every game had.
Hit the nail on the head YHVH is evil is starting to get very tiring. Spin-offs do a much better job of alignments oddly enough
@@GanonAutumn777 same :D found out about smt games about 4 years ago with persona 4 since then my view on quality of video games has changed
@@Tony4You I legitimately hate God though, so I'm fine with his portrayal. I love how Chaos/Neutral are far more preferable than this peace garbage.
the segment with virgilia was really profound and insightful. with japanese media im interested in how the aspects of japanese attitudes translate into writing decisions(because japan is an... interesting country, for better or for worse) so im glad virgilia covered the japanese relationship with mythology here
strange journey is peak SMT
Very true, top tier SMT and RPG in general
I know a lot of people feel like SMT V's secret ending has a theme disconnected from some of its side quest requirements, but I rather like that. You have to see all these different sides of demons from the benevolent Fionn Mac Cumhail, to Khonsu's empathy for a human leading him to foolish pursuit and the Egyptian pantheon's concern for him, to Shiva's desire to destroy everything to recreate the world. And after see all this you still get to decide if recreating the world without demons or not is the way you want to go. It gives that choice more weight than if you did not have those experiences.