Archetype Archive - The Boxer
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- Опубликовано: 27 сен 2024
- Today we cover a much more conceptual archetype than a gameplay one - The Boxer - an archetype that is much more grounded in the sport and the way the sport functions and its rules rather than grounded in fighting games and their logic and systems. I go over the interesting link between these characters and the sport - as well as the strengths they carry over into the game from real life.
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As a real boxer i almost always play this archetype because it’s similarto my actual fighting style and more comfortable to me, even in smash my main is lil mac
legitimately same I got pretty cracked at Mac in Ultimate even though he was pretty bad in the Newest Installment. So mad they nerfed him when stuff like Minecraft Steve Exists in Ultimate.
@@dr.dylansgame5583 It's less that they nerfed him, and more that while 4's gameplay was very grounded, high-end ultimate is all aboot air-combat, and he ain't no air-fighter.
Same! Hell Steve Fox is my favorite fighting game character of all of them
Same, brother
@@ATTBoxer13 Well your Correct on that but I remember they also changed his Moves from his Wii Counter Part. And it shows as if they kept his kit from back then it wouldn't be so bad. But his New Kit would even struggle grounded against quite a few characters. Don't remember what they changed. But I do remember it was a flat downgrade from his last kit.
I always find the boxers in fighting games so interesting. I mean, we have people that are going into a fight only using their fist, I find that very cool.
😊
never forget that dudley beat the hell out of the water/fire-bending leader of the actual illuminati just to get his car back (automatically the best character in the genre)
I love that he goes back to being a gentleman once the car is returned. Such a great arc for a character. I think "gentleman whose feathers have been ruffled" is such an underutilised trope.
I love the boxers that are very evasive and have multiple fast overwhelming punches; that's why my favorite boxers are Steve Fox (Tekken) and Vanessa (KOF).
Very interesting that Boxers and Tae-Kwon-Do fundamentals translate very well in fighting games.
I was considering including some footage of Vice too, but decided against it. But I think this close ranged oppressive pure-strike style is a ton of fun to play with. Although I lean much more to the outfighter style of play with Steve or Dudley.
One other aspect of Boxer type characters I feel needs mentioning is that they tend to have the fastest and strongest light jabs in their cast. Dudley, Makoto in Blazblue, Akihiko in P4A...
Thats true but can also be untrue, plus in a lot of games theyre tied for fastest jab speed with a lot of other characters. So its not the sort of thing i really consider for these vids even if its a good observation
@@DarumaFGCgood because Ed’s jab is SF6 is dogshit so good call man you were right !
I generally like Boxer characters because of how, usually, they are just the normal-ish characters in the game. Imagine a relatively normal guy defeating the God of martial arts, with just punches.
It's a good trope. Makes Johnny Cage and Jax feel more compelling as characters too. MK does a good job of fitting humans in the lore.
That was a really interesting take.
Could we define them as: "mid to close range fighters, with an enphasis on pressure with powerful normals, counter pocking moves and the ability to fish for counter hits and to delete you if they get one"
That makes sense to me and is a definition that doesn't limit to the character knowing boxing, that description fits Slayer well by the way xD
That's pretty much accurate. I think the sways and counters are necessary to fit the definition too. As well as relying almost purely on raw strike and not strike/throw high/low.
Wouldn't that also fit Leo as well? You have an auto block move a counter, a projectile that's only for approach and anti zoning and a playstyle that focuses on counter fishing and pressure. He also has a left right crossup but let's not mention that
@@mrblooper1994 if i had to categorize Leo, i would do it in two ways:
1) "All rounder" because he can play neutral fairly well on top of being a mixup machine.
2) "Stance" character who switches beetween a "Bully" in his normal mode and a "Mixup" character in his backturn mode.
Of course Leo can capitalize in counter pocking and frame traps, but he doesn't seem to have special moves specifically design to do that like with Dudleys "ducking", Slayers "Dandy Step", etc. A move that keeps them slippery while they fish for counter pokes ir counter hits.
At least that's my opinion, that's how i personally undestand it better.
@@mrblooper1994 some characters with far too many tools wind up kind of fitting into many archetypes. While stance characters are most often guilty of this, I actually think Leo isn't too dissimilar to a boss character in how he's designed. Boss characters since they're designed to eat credits, tend to abuse players that play using the games default mechanics. And be designed around making neutral really hard to play in any honest fashion. If you ask with almost any Leo tool, why does he have ____ you wind up at the answer to counter ____ and that's without even mentioning his crossup which of course punishes you immensely for Faultless defence. I think that also is a good way to look at why he still has his charge moves when he's in backturn, it's all to be a son of a ______, which was the whole philosophy behind boss characters for decades.
This also describes Nago a bit, you know, the samurai
I think that one character that fits the Boxer category really well that people dont talk about too much is Hit in Dragonball Fighterz. He's like a weird Boxer/Stance character but he definitely has alot of Boxer qualities (really good ambiguous pressure, frame traps, etc etc)
I wanted to be sure the video was accurate to him so the script was written with him in mind, but I couldn't fit him in in the editing room
@Daruma tbf fair you did talk about focusing on the characters who are ACTUAL sport boxers. Also we got plenty of Dudley footage, and the two surprisingly have similar toolkits so he's still there in spirit lol
As a fan of boxing in general, I tend to try to make this archetype work, when choosing mains.
Another detail I like about the design of these characters is that they tend to reflect the strengths and weaknesses of the character’s preferred type of boxing based on their move pools. You have outside boxers like Steve and Vanessa, inside fighters like Balrog, and counterpuncher/hybrid fighters like Dudley.
Its a very interesting, fun, and surprisingly versatile way to play when you get a proper grips of it. I really respond to how adaptive these characters are to both matchups and playstyles. They feel really malleable compared to a lot of characters.
Steve seems more of a jack of all trades kind of fighter.
Steve is a counterpuncher. That B-1 is godly.
Steve Fox made almost exclusively main the boxer in any game in general with the style. My older cousin came over one day and just weaved every attack I threw at him with Law and I just needed to master that style.
You gotta do a video on the Unga Bunga archetype.
I consider Unga Bunga/Gorilla to be much more of a playstyle than an Archetype, and you can see some more in depth reasoning as to why in my Brawler video, which is generally about the characters people refer to when they're calling someone a gorilla, but not always. I did say though eventually I will do videos on playstyles, seperate from archetypes and how to execute playstyles at a high level and influence your opponents way of thinking using them.
2:23 Dudley Is the exception to this rule. His entire gimmick is being THE high/low mixup king of 3rd strike thanks to his taunt and overheads
Yeah for some reason I tend to love the Boxers .. Killer Instinct TJ Combo was top 3 easily… Street Fighter 4 Balrog was my boi.. Street Fighter III New Generation is my favorite SF of all time .. my favorite Character was Dudley 🙌🏻
Every game they're in the succeed in feeling really cool. Love em to bits.
Little Mac form Smash Bros
New generation? Isn't it just the worse version of 3rd strike?
@@sonofaglitch7549 it can still be my favorite 🤷🏻♂️ maybe because I played it a lot when it came out and I found a bunch of the new characters awesome.. maybe because it was so different from the other SF games and other Fighting games at the time .. the first time I personally learned the combos in SF like Dudley and Ken .. those are kind of the basis and what made SF4,SFV and now SF6 …didn’t say it was the best ever .. just saying my personal favorite..
Long as it's not 2nd impact the choice is cool in my book
I think one aspect of Boxers is that the game has to be limited enough for their moveset to exist or they end up becoming other archetypes. Fundamentally they are CQC monsters, one of if not the best at pressure and counter hits, with high damage and looping situations to stay in when they get in. When given too many tools, they easily become brawlers, bullys, all rounders, etc. instead: Slayer, Sol, Marisa, Bison, these would be boxers end up getting tools boxers don't have even though they have everything a Boxer would.
This is a big issue in anime fighters where footsies are more limited, as Boxing is really all high risk cqc based footsies that extends into pressure, and so they need something else to compensate for not being able to abuse that when everyone in the cast does that to an extent.
Steve is the strongest Boxer ever, and while it's partly his stances, sways, safety, and pressure, more than anything it's about his movement. The Tekken 3D engine lets his cqc "footsies" shine the most as you can stay close and still dodge by using the 3D space. It's such a strong concept in 3D that they basically had to sacrifice his 50/50, range, and punishment to do let him keep doing it. That's why Boxing is the fundamental martial art in IRL 3D MMA as well.
I always felt Vanessa from KOF never got the recognition she deserves. She's so fun to play.
I remember learning how to transfer weight in boxing just by watching Steve on Tekken 4 when I was a kid. His move is so clean, it's so good to learn from him.
I first played Dudley in SSFIV because he wasn’t a charge character like Barlog and now I love Dudley. He is an amazing character who just loves tea and his garden. I mainly only play him in 3rd strike and not street fighter 4 anymore because he just more style in 3rd strike.
Gentleman fighters speak to me on a whole other level. I wonder if capcom think there's room for him and JP on the same roster, though in all honesty I fully expect that if Dudley returns, it will be as a genderbend.
@@DarumaFGC A dudley protege who's more a street rat who's trying to be more elegant and gentlemanly in a comedic way that shows in their design, animation and moveset would be my dream dudley 2.0
@@battousaix4263 I would bet any money that if we get a Dudley protege, it's a genderbend of him. I don't know if/when we're gonna see SF3 characters in sf6, my assumption is that if my story theory video is even somewhat correct, the world of sf6 would open up in scope at the end of the story, and allow for existing street fighter characters (or crossover ones) to come into sf6 from outside.
@@DarumaFGC I hope we see Dudley in SF6
@@HBRO_04 Hard to say, he shows up in some of the art, so at least they've acknowledged him!
I've always wanted some sort of in depth breakdown of how fighting game archetypes have changed over the years, become less absolute and more specific/complex. These videos are exactly what I had in mind! Thank you for making these!
One of my favorite boxers is from a more niche indie fighting game called Duels of Fortune, his name is Clyde Brightstar. He has a special running dash that can pass through enemies, allowing for quick cross-ups, and can also do a semi-commital 'fake-out' to try and bait punishes.
Almost exactly the idea behind them! I moreso wanted firm definitions for terms people throw around with no definition, or characters who get called stuff they quite clearly don't fit into. But I'm glad this is the kind of content you're looking for and I'm excited to make more.
@@DarumaFGC but isn't "boxer" an incredibly vague idea within the video? You sorta just imply that the main condition for a character being a boxer is to, well, be a boxer in the universe, from that sorta extrapolating whatever characteristics the various characters who fit that definition have in common, while sorta excluding characters such as Slayer from the mix due to his aesthetics.
I think that works well enough for a kind of "philosophy" - a vague concept that represents a very broad idea, but as a definition? I think it doesn't come close to the more traditional yet nuanced terms such as "trap character", "normals zoner" or "pixie".
I guess this in particular seems to be very vague as to the character's gameplans and tools, whereas those other definitions have more clearly defined identities that are rooted in those things? Idk, I think it's a bit too dependent on a specific aesthetic to be a workable definition.
@@thosebloodybadgers8499 I did go into definitions beyond aesthetics, needing a sway and a counter and an overall mass lack in lows, these characters rely almost purely on strike and not strike/throw high/low. So it does cut out characters who might be adjacent but wind up very effectively different, like say Akatsuki from Blitzkampf/UNICLR. The idea they should most likely be a boxer in universe, was a statement of exclusion, but not the definition in itself. I think there's a much stronger argument for someone like Naoto, who I showed at that point in the video to be allowed to be called a boxer, than there is for slayer. And while it might effectively work on him, and not qualitatively be wrong. Realistically archetypes shouldn't bother people to hear a character be called. And I think there are more edge cases than just slayer where you could call someone boxer and turn a lot of heads and annoy people by doing it.
"Really strong close range defense"
Cries in sf6 Ed
Finally! I've been waiting for this video forever. I think the character that really got me into this archetype is slayer, and he definitely represents the style really well while adding his own flavor. Things such as free flowing crazy pressure (with the right reads), feints, uppercuts, and very tricky movement make this character incredible. And not to mention his crazy good defense rounds him out particularly well.
It's interesting how often you actually see this playstyle all over fighting games and just how seperate it feels from other ones.
I really appreciate that you are this active in the comments
Your replies really feel like extra content
I do my best to get around to as much as I can! I don't get notified of everything sadly or some things slip by, but I do what I can with my time.
@@DarumaFGC I really like the discussion we have in the comments
@@sonofaglitch7549 cheers! It gives me more insight to both what my fans want and where their level of understanding is too. Plus the support is always appreciated!
played tekken 6 for fun until i discovered steve fox's moveset that makes me comfortable. from that day, i main steve whenever there's tekken gaming with friends.
He's very fun and very fluid. It's a shame there aren't more Steve's in pro. Revenge for him being broken in older games I suppose.
I loved playing Dudley as a kid! Hope he will come back eventually
I believe personally that some kind of major event in either SF6 or a second story added as dlc will open the world up to allow characters not involved in the plot directly to return. Really can't wait to see the 3S characters in RE engine
interestingly enough , Jules' ( the marduk player in the tekken clip vs GEN) brother, Pica is also a pro tekken player/coach and is one of the more complete steve players in our region + streams regularly
That is for sure a fun fact, Steve's surprisingly underrepresented competitively for how popular he is casually
Man there are so many cool boxers in fighting games bro. Mac, TJ and Akihiko come to mind immediately.
I wanted to include Jax in this video too, but couldn't fit him anywhere.
Made me laugh when Slayer popped up on screen with a Disclaimer! He is very similar in a lot of ways to what you said defines a Boxer but with a couple key difference due to the game he's from, he has amazing anti-airs and a down-right dastardly high-low-left-right okizeme game, making him an evolution of the archetype imo, one made to fit in the higher power of Guilty Gear.
It'll be interesting to see him in Strive if/when he finally arrives, with the focus on a simpler game, he might turn out to be a true Boxer in the end.
It's really hard for me to say what a strive slayer would look like, I think if he were to show up, he'd likely get a 70-80%~ do-over like ram did and likely shift archetype sideways. Too much that's important to him is either already accounted for, or would be way too good for strive, since there's no way that game could allow back dash invuln cancels, and Nagoryuki already has his exact dandy step into command throw or strike mix built into his kit. I'm not sure if it's copium but some members of the community seem dead set on the idea he's all-but confirmed though, and he is one of my favourite GG characters ever, so I'd happily accept his return even if he is vastly changed when he does.
@@DarumaFGC It's true that a lot of what he does would probably be too strong, he won't get in with BDC as it is that's for sure. However I don't really think that Slayer is as reliant on his command throw as Nagoriyuki is really. For Slayer, it's an option to keep your opponent aware of so that they can't just down back, whereas as Nagoriyuki, it's a common thing to constantly test your opponent with.
I do agree he will be quite different from his XRD and AC+R counterpart though, I really want him in because I want to hit a CH Pilebunker and watch them fly through the corner instantly haha. Also no character really fits the same feeling as Slayer imo, even Nagoriyuki who has some of his tools explicitly.
I think that clearly Devs in general are a lot more happy to let wallbounces fly and even be required nowadays. Testament actually got a patch to their juggle limits causing some corner bnbs to require them now, and for Goldlewis it's all about ragdolling the opponent all day every day. You're even seeing a few characters with them in SF6 too. If I had to guess who would have this sort of stuff and represent that sort of momentum based slugger style, I'm thinking a somewhat redesigned jam would be pretty likely to feel much more like a heavy-hitter than she has in the past.
@@techykati think slayer movement should be reworked like his EX version in GGACR. I think he will also be nerfed to high lows and grabs only (which is crazy considering S3 nago already has all of this). Im cool if they keep his old movesets while nerfing the movements. He’s one of the few members of the old guilty gear that I want to see redesigned along with ABA and Order Sol
I’ve practiced boxing for about 8 years and it’s always fun to play as one in these games irl it’s pretty unrealistic for a boxer to beat a fighter that is good at multiple martial arts 😭 that’s probably why it’s so fun In game
The fantasy of it's really cool but it does suck that boxing is pretty low on the martial arts totem pole
@@DarumaFGCit's definetly one of the most effective martial arts if you compare it to the others but it'll definetly lose against more well rounded pressure tested martial arts like mma or sambo.
0:41 yes, this soundtrack is perfect to introduce the boxers
IT’S THE THING I ASKED FOR!!
I really like boxers :D
This video articulates why really well.
Always good when I hear I've hit the nail on the head! Thanks bud
I'm a dedicated boxer character main. I had a blast watching this!
Happy to hear the target audience enjoys it!
Asuka from Strive has got me thinking about other characters that use cards, I can only think of Rose in SFV. Might be a cool video although I'm not sure if theres enough for it to be an archetype.
There are both characters who literally use cards, like Answer in Xrd, Gambit in MVC or Oswald in KOF. And characters who use these similar pseudo-random draw mechanics. Like Sins food buffs in strive for example. But this is maybe something for two separate Move type overviews and not full archetypes.
I’d love to see stance archtype characters like Steve from Tekken, Ivy from soul caliber, Gen, etc
Stance will probably be one of the huge ones down the road. Since there's so many types of stances, and say some characters are like, stance Zoners who have 2 different ways to zone, or others are a zoner in one stance, and a Rushdown in the other. Or lots of stuff like that. I'll put a lot of work into breaking them down properly.
There's one boxer I don't think I've ever seen in a fighting game. A Classic Foreman/Roberto Duran wrestle-boxer using very classic fundamentals. A shopping list, if you will.
Sells:
-A brutal bread and butter target combo that deals a lot of damage.
-Mid to long range normals with a degree of inside game. (Best at mid to long range normals, but can deal with infighting.)
-Doesn't have a strong high-low mixup, but has a very oppressive strike/throw mixup, ideally with a poorly damaging throw that can be fed into combos for easy tick throw combos, both in and out. (Paw at the guard to force openings. Classic Foreman did this quite a lot to tear a guard away from an opponent.)
-A very fast shove that doesn't need to damage, but does come out quick and can be used to enforce reads and open up combo opportunities. Must be dodged like a grab. Functions almost like a reverse shimmy where instead of you moving, you throw it out, force the opponent to move, and lock them in preferred distance.
Tradeoffs:
-Lacks a true fast normal outside of the shove.
-Honest to a rather absurd degree outside of his combo throw and shove.
-Limited move options. Has super armor, projectile parry, or a tatsu to get past projectiles, but it's worse than a Shoto on mobility.
-Little to no high-low mixups. Atrocious game in the air.
This is a kind of boxing that I'm surprised hasn't made itself out there more. Anyone else feel me here?
Its pretty strong, so maybe not exactly what youre thinking of, but Steve fox in tekken features a lot of these. He has options for both infighting and outfighting but in both styles which you gotta choose properly when to use he either has a good long range oppressive throw or non damaging clinching that sets up combos, while he has next to no low options and poor ways of punishing overheads or lows from the opponent.
In 2d, these grabs can be overly oppressive, for example, while dudley in 3rd strike is a strong outfighter with good health demolishing bnbs and a strong good range overhead, his throws are mediocre, while makoto, a karate focused rushdown, or jun, a rushdown too, both have extremely strong combo starting grabs
@@DarumaFGC It's gonna be a weird way to say it, but those characters are too fast for this kind of thing. Classic 70's era Foreman did not throw flurries or use fancy head movement. What defined his style back then was being able to pick and choose his engagements using really classic boxing techniques to frame and stifle his opponent building momentum. He'd paw at your guard, push your shoulders to stop your jabs and crosses before they could even begin, shove you back if you wanted to get in, stiff arm you, pull at your arms to put you off balance, and he'd be more than happy to push your head right into the path of one of his meaty hooks and uppercuts that felled giants. Steve is mobile and dodges your offense while not letting you get a fist in edgewise. Foreman forces the issue of his killer hooks and shoves you around if you want to try to avoid having to respect them.
Ever hear of the Modern Martial Artist? He's done really good breakdowns of classic boxers from the heyday of boxing. He's done some good videos on this. Foreman v. Frazier is a great showcase of the style, Foreman's use of leverage blocks to just keep Frazier from throwing his punches and to spin him around the ring is the endgoal, letting Foreman just read him all day long.
In more FGC terms... instead of a character who has a strong high-low mixup game, this is one who has a punch-throw mixup game with a dash of counter hit/parry game. Guard pawing throws are a thing, Fei Long and Yun's side switch throws that otherwise do no damage come to mind, and the ability to have an actual combo with a throw in it as opposed to a tick throw that forces oki seems like an interesting form of mixup pressure. The gameplan is more or less that of the Bully. Foreman gets to your midrange, he's going to start throwing power shots, and if you try to get away from that, the Bully says no. You will deal with killer hooks, you will deal with that reaching jab with really good frame data, you will have your guard pawed at, and the only way that's gonna stop is if you can deal with his bully options. Steve keeps his head away from you and wears you down with quick shots. Foreman keeps your head right where he wants it and forces you to eat a cinderblock if you screw up.
With that said, his weakness is the honesty. He has a game plan. You know what it is. It's all a matter of catching it and countering, ironically literally by trying to grab the frame traps and stiff arms away by countering those throws. He won't throw true lows, though he can and will grab you and stand you back up if you try being cheeky. He doesn't have a fireball. He doesn't have anything too wild. You can fireball spam him. Rush ins aren't impossible. You might need to play a perfect game to get in, but Foreman's got to play a perfect game to keep you where he wants you too. Thus the mind games.
I might be a bit aimless, but such is the nature of trying to translate an IRL fighter to a vidya game. I'm a fan of the classics, and ultra-fundamental boxing that just quashes offense with aggressive defenses just isn't quite something I think I've seen despite my years playing fighting games.
I love Dudley and his music 🎶
The vibes are immaculate
Its actually crazy you never used a single smug clip
It takes a long time to dredge up footage for these videos since I need to find specific rounds and matchups where a move or characters played in a certain way for examples sake, to show off what I'm talking about with a characters strengths/weaknesses. Smug probably would have wormed in if the video was longer, but I also had to cut some stuff with Jax from MK from the vid, so smug footage just never made it in.
"You ain't no air fighter, Mac!"-Doc Louise
First I thought "Damn really love seeing someone with so little subs just doing videos for fun!
But Damn you pull in MAD views props to you!
Just happy people are enjoying the content!
Wow, you really convinced me that boxers have their own archetype
Before I watched that I thought "what's next, the gunner archetype? The muay Thai archetype?"
It's a really unique situation. There is a possibility characters with guns will come down the line, reload/aiming mechanics or the unique brand of instantly fullscreen bullet projectiles are in all sorts of games and are pretty interesting. But they're so niche that it'll be a while before I get to them. A lot more important stuff to cover first.
@@DarumaFGC do you consider a character with strong moves limited by a unique resource an archetype?
Kinda yes, kinda no. There are ways to do this with every archetype. You can have Zoners with resource management, brawlers, shotos, Rushdown, etc. It's been done for most archetypes you could think of. It's moreso about facilitation, like I go over in my what is an archetype video. Some characters do literally nothing but manage a resource, like happy chaos in strive spends all his time making sure he has bullets and concentration, if he doesn't have them he tries to build them back. Or nagoryuki has to either up his defence or up his offence if his blood meter gets too high. If he doesn't land a blood grab or get a lot of sword normals to connect, he puts himself in danger. Meanwhile other resources can be managed a lot more off handedly, and are either a bonus or almost always in play. And act as a limiter on a strong toolkit, rather than a focal point of their tools.
I'd maybe do videos about types of resources. Ammo, gauges, one-time use, etc. But those are a ways away and are really big projects since even with something like ammo, there's so many different ways to do that in every game.
@@DarumaFGC great answer, I just wonder where does someone become a focal point and the main playstyle and when the move is just a bonus
Is a puppet character an archetype?
Puppet characters can vary in win condition but what set them apart is much more defined than a rushdown
Is a stance character an archetype?
Mastering the stances is the focal point of most characters like that, but every stance belongs to an already defined archetype
@@sonofaglitch7549 puppet characters absolutely are an archetype. They do a lot of funky setplay stuff but are really really weak without their puppet in play. Similarly there definitely is stance characters. Granted they're rarer now and they're moving in a different direction to where they used to be. Now stance characters either just have a couple moves per stance, or they have 2 archetypes they switch between. When it used to be common for characters to have anywhere between 3-5 stances and often they'd be the same archetype.
Hence my name, I main all personifications from a lot of the franchises.
I respect the hustle ✊
I always love boxers in fighting games, if i see one i would do my best to main them (unless they are charge type chars). my all time favorite is Dudley from SF, Vanessa and Nelson from KoF and (not fully sure she counts but) Zenia from arcana heart. i wish there was more in fighting games
Fingers crossed Tekken 8, SF6 and maybe even MK1 deliver some cool ones this year!
Thanks for the video, enjoy your break!!
Won't be long! Just taking a weekend where I don't think too hard and just enjoy the sf6 beta.
Been loving these videos man! Amazing!
Thanks a ton dude! Plenty more in future.
DeGrey in Fantasy Strike is described as a "frame trap character" by the game's tutorial video. I would love to see analysis of those characters and other lesser played titles like samsho or old arcade fighters
I would have to look up this character specifically cuz im not really versed in fantasy strike at all, but i have similar archetypes in mind to cover soon-ish. Cant guarantee how soon but footsies characters are on the way down the road. As for older games theres a few id love to pick apart but unfortunately while my channels so small, it just kinda kills my growth on the algorithm when i make a video from passion rather than for growth. So while i still make passion-lead videos, theyre mostly not on fighting games so i get a bit of a break from starin at em all day
@DarumaFGC Makes sense! De Grey is inspired from Slayer (pull back, then follow up with safe punch, heavy punch, or dragon punch, or nothing) follow up. Can cancel normals into an attack grab projectile that beats most other projectiles (Ghost puppet grabs). I don't know what I would call Slayer archetype wise but frame-trap is probably a decent one? Frametrap / counter-hit fishing?
@@quantumpotatoI think overall I put slayer in brawler, he has an easy time sticking to the opponent and closing distance too, but in reality once hes on you hes a simple strike throw character. Obviously his dash-cancel invulnerability just kinda makes him ridiculous but no other character I can think of does that, so I'm fine with not giving him a slayer-specific archetype haha
@@DarumaFGC makes sense! The idea of brawler fits with "looking for a counter hit" for me, conceptually (mappa punch CH GG).
Slayer's invlun dash is wacky, he is a weird character; I forget which FGRUclipsr pointed out that Slayer's lack of chain cancels thematically fit with him "holding back".
Im really hoping Dudley makes an appearance in SF6!
He pops up multiple times in art in the game! I think he might even be living in metro city, but could be wrong.
This is really interesting and informative. Thanks man 😊
Always welcome! Glad to help people out where I can.
I think when SF6 comes out, you should go through all the characters and decide what archetype they belong to.
I'll do something like that as soon as I can for the game since people are interested in seeing it
And sadly, no Akihiko Sanada footage. Easily one of the most unique takes on the archetype.
as a Dudley & Steve Fox main, I think this video was very nice, but Dudley has some of the best jump-ins in the game because his short jump arc and jump-ins on him are just super favoreble if you are good enought to react with duck under and supper cancel so you get the auto correct backwards, work wounders against tatsus & rinohorns aswell.
I did try fit in examples of Dudley's air to ground being decent in the section about dealing with their offense once they have momentum. I probably should have mentioned something about their anti air in general being meter reliant cause it's true for a few of these characters but sometimes things slip through the cracks.
Bald guy from fatal fury was axel hawk i believe
Finally some archetype studies
Glad you like the content!
We love LIL MAC!
He was my main in smash 4, fun how agile his style is
@@DarumaFGC same lol and his KO punch was so beefy felt like I was hitting them to the moon with it
Smash players only had Ruy and Ken from traditional fighting games. For a long time. So calling them shoto was natural that's what they are.
But then Terry come. He is a shot has well. Must be because of cancels auto turn around a motion imputs? Right.
Kazuya shows up. Auto turnaround, motion imputs. Yep that's a shoto.
I think they stopped calling them that. But I don't know what is the new words for thoses fighters.
Shotos are Ryu and Ken. We mostly refer to the whole umbrella of Shotos, Terry, and Kazuya as Fighting Game Characters (FGCs).
Ryu and Ken go about neutral very differently than the other two. So specifying the difference using Shotos or FGCs is needed
sometimes people even go further to say Traditional Fighting Game Characters
@@playme676 yeah I always said traditional fg cjaracters. But fgc's is way faster.
But yeah, archetypes in smash is really wierd. Like weirder than even tekken in my opinion.
@@captainphoton1693 It's only weird because both communities don't know what the archetypes are. Spacies was just a term for Falco and Fox because it's quicker than saying their name. It was used to describe tech vs them because they have the same weight and fall speed. Fox has always been a rushdown character. Ultimate is a bunch of kids that don't know anything and when they attempted to use shoto as a broad term they refused criticism until every major content creator told them they where stupid.
Super specific question, does anyone know what vegito blue from dbfz would be?
Hey, all the fusions are featured to some degree on my video on the Brawler archetype, it's something people threw around a lot but there wasn't a strict definition, so I came up with my own
Little Mac and duck hunt as my smash mains
Theyre too fun
Yo I love this series, please take a look at Ninjas as a video topic. It would be very cool to get your analysis and take on characters like Chipp, Ibuki, Kunimatsu, Kimberly, Zeku, ect. and all the other characters inbetween
While most ninja characters play very differently, I'm sure I'll do something about the aesthetic end of fighting game character design in future. I love most of those characters so they'll be on my radar in time.
finally, i can point to this video when my friend asks me what characters i like. dudley SF6 PLEASE
Hey he pops up in artwork multiple times throughout the game, its seemingly implied he might even work in metro city, so i think of any of the sf3 cast, hes probably most likely to return
@@DarumaFGC ill look at the picture everyday and send out vibes of hope
Steve mains are cute.
Awesome video!!
Cheers mate! 🍻
Tj combo got me in to boxers. As a kid, i couldn’t get into rog during sf2 at all because i was too dumb to figure out charging while fighting. Didn’t play any of the original sf3’s besides the one time my friend brought it over to play on my Dreamcast, and i was basically like “tf you doing? I have MvC2!” So i only played a couple matches and never picked anybody besides the shotos. In HS, I was a little smarter🤏🏼 and i finally got Rog and he was satisfying to play…. Until Dudley came out. At that time I just discovered Ippo and he had a lot of references. A bit harder to play for me but I was hooked! Then sf3O came out and and i finally went around the roster like “oh, this is where Dudley came from!?” And it was great. Then sfv rog was a beast! Tap tap taperoo was my joint! Ed sux.
Dudley really is the peak as far as 2D goes, really hope he comes back for sf6 but I'm honestly expecting a genderbend
I just want Dudley back...
Fingers well and truly crossed
This was a lot better than talking about Ky👌🏿
Thanks bud 🍻
you could do a sumo wrestler next, they usually play in really specific ways with their palm thrusts and grappling game
I'd love if there were more of these guys in fighting games. It's a bit low on priority because of how rare they are. But I will be covering Honda in SF6, so you'll at least see something about him soon.
Don't know if you're aware, but there is already an archetype archive series in youtube. Since I'm a fan of that and fighting games, guess yt pointed me here, but it might be messing up with your metrics? Hopefully for the better, but...
A few people have brought it up, but I can see what gets recommended to people and where from, it's only really people who watch both things anyway that see my vids on Yu-Gi-Oh vids recommendations
I can’t wait for the vid in spd.
Nice vídeo theme
Thank you! 🍻
I dont usually play Smash but the inclusion of Little Mac got me interested to try.
I had fun with him with what little I played of smash 4
My fav boxer is has to be Vanessa in KOF 2002 (on fightcade not steam)
I love how different every kof manages to be. I have some content including kof '01 on the way real soon. About Striker characters.
@@DarumaFGC i cant wait, will be sure to watch!
Love boxing
🍻
Yes
I like Dudley. Dudley is fun to me😊
EDIT: "Predicting accurately is a very difficult skill, and I'll cover it at a later date" Apologies for basically being obsessed with Parry characters, but, I'm sure that you're talking about parry characters there (mostly the skills required to play them well, really)
The people's champion, if he doesn't return in sf6 or he returns as a genderbend, I will riot.
@@DarumaFGC awesome idea, he needs a comeback with enough differentiation from Luke.
When I first touched fighting games, i instantly gravitated to Dudley in SF4 before i knew anything about how to play. I really want to revisit him so bad in the new games in some form, now that I learned how to do motion inputs xD.
Im kinda curious if you can do a video on an archetype thats focused on defense. Good content btw 😁
Parry characters is coming soon! It's likely charge characters will be a little after, look forward to it!
Balrog my main in SF5.
Tbf dudley does have some of the best antiairs and jumpins in thorsd strike
Kinda but you have to remember how much partying affects the strength of both tools. Empty jump parry is super important. And vice versa, it's not too hard to parry jump ins either.
Where's my boxer in 6 Capcom? Where's Duds? And no, Ed's not it.
Don't count Dee Jay? He's a bit different but he is styled around it
@@DarumaFGC he doesn't look like a boxer to me, he's much more like a shoto in my book. His fireball game is too important and I'm more like a Duds and Balrog type of boxer enjoyer.
I started playing boxers due to Smug's Dudley.
Smugs always entertaining to watch. Never seems to have an off-day
The best archetype unless it's in smash lol. I play all boxers in all fighting games but couldn't get down with little mac. Dudley is my favorite character of all time.
Fighting nitpick: Muay Thai (Moo-ee Tie) is the fighting style. Mai Tai (My Tie) is a delicious cocktail. You don't want the wrong one in the ring or near your mouth.
Just went by what I've heard, but wasn't really sure myself which was right
4:11 what song is this
Infinite azures theme from Tekken 7, I think it's called moonlighters 1st
This is less of an archetype and more of a unique tool, but characters with teleports?
I haven't quite decided when to do them or how to structure them, but move type overviews will be something I do down the line.
Yknow, i like this vid, but something i think bout is that steve in his normal stance has 1+2 and 2 break throw, but no one brings it up cuz steves either never grab, or only use his 1+2 grab for some reason
Regardless, punching :)
His grabs are kind of made bad by right of the way he plays, they don't have anything wrong with them in a vacuum, but with the specific way Tekken plays at a high level and the constant flicker canceling you need to do as Steve to make up good distance, getting in and using his normal grabs is a nightmare and trying to occupy that space will normally just blow you up. Hence why you typically only see the turtle up grab, or the restand.
@@DarumaFGC well to be fair, if were talking T7 steve specifically, all grabs got nerfed in 7, and yeah steve has way better things to do then use throws that have almost no big properties
Now i havent warched that much steve gameplay, but his players sometimes remind of marduk players, only using ff 1+2 throw even tho other ones exist, for different reasons but i still think its wack to watch
@@HELLRAISER02 it's often said Tekken is 2 different games at once, there's a huge seperation between a regular player just picking up the game and a higher tier player who is KBD-ing all over the place. The kind of overwhelming offence Steve allows at a low skill level of play is great fun to play and watch happen with friends, but sadly its forced to become a way more defensive and almost runaway style in competitive settings. If you want characters who play like low-skill Steve in competition though, I think Nina and Anna are super interesting to watch and offer that kind of dancing all over your opponent and blowing their defence to pieces style that Steve offers to players at the lower tier of play. Nina in particular has to really hard dedicate to her side rotations but gets huge payoffs for doing so.
@@DarumaFGC i never watched the assassin sisters, ive seen steve tho, tekkens just fun to watch
But my comments were mainly half serious/jokey, mainly cuz i often notice what kinds of throws n tools peeps use (cuz after jabs, i always be checking throws)
But yeah no, each skill lvl is like a different universe, if only i can get out of low ranks so i can fight less laggy laws
@@HELLRAISER02 you'll get a surprisingly high value amount of practice out of treasure battle, the sustained match-after-match formula as well as the ramping difficulty, modifiers and boss rounds mean you quite quickly scale in intensity and learn more about using your character in various scenarios. While it's never perfect to practice against AI there's a lot of value to be gained in the sort of test of stamina that kind of ladder is, you can improve a surprising amount very quickly that way.
No mention of Little Mac?
Sadly it took a lot of time to include all the recorded and edited footage of the characters that are in the video as is, and a few characters like Jax from MK got cut from the video. That on top of there being no easy way for me to record smash ultimate, meant it hit the cutting room floor
@@DarumaFGC Fair enough, but Mac is a pretty demonstrative extreme being the lightest and fastest example of a boxer while still feeling like one.
Am I allowed to ask about Little Mac on this subject, or....?
Feel free, archetypes work a little differently in smash because the expectations of what a character must be able to do are very different. But I have no prejudice against smash players, I just don't know about it intricately enough to say much beyond a surface level. I've only ever played it casually.
doesnt sf4 dudley kinda break your low part?
He only has 3 low attacks, his crouched kick inputs, he doesn't get lows from literally anything else
@@DarumaFGC legit every sf character does not a crouching punch(exclude elaina) that is a low i legit cant think of anything like that
@@DarumaFGChe legit has high low mixups something you said they dont have and said mixups build some of the most dizzy in the game
Matthew 13:18-23 18 Hear ye therefore the parable of the sower. 19 When any one heareth the word of the kingdom, and understandeth it not, then cometh the wicked one, and catcheth away that which was sown in his heart. This is he which received seed by the way side. 20 But he that received the seed into stony places, the same is he that heareth the word, and anon with joy receiveth it; 21 Yet hath he not root in himself, but dureth for a while: for when tribulation or persecution ariseth because of the word, by and by he is offended. 22 He also that received seed among the thorns is he that heareth the word; and the care of this world, and the deceitfulness of riches, choke the word, and he becometh unfruitful. 23 But he that received seed into the good ground is he that heareth the word, and understandeth it; which also beareth fruit, and bringeth forth, some an hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
No little Mac?!
Unfortunately not every boxing character made the cut, took a lot to get the footage I have of the 4 already in there
Awww no Akihiko?
Unfortunately there were way too many boxers for me to fit in this video, next in line was Jax from MK who had to be cut for time
@@DarumaFGC cool videos though can’t wait for the next one
Cheers! 🍻
You have a good video, but the fact that i saw the same clips from Balrog, Dudley, Ed and the dude from tekken over and over just bored me.
very sad not to see vanessa gameplay
She's super fun but I couldn't really fit in more characters into the runtime in the editing room
no Vanessa? sad
Unfortunately I couldn't fit segments from kof as well as DBFZ and a few other games into the editing, you get the picture though
I've heard people try to classify Dudley as not being a realistic depiction of boxing. That's nonsense, while nobody will throw flowers in the ring that doesn't mean that Dudley's style isn't realistic. Dudley is a counter boxer, who doesn't throw the first punch but counters it. Like how Balrog is a slugger, who cares less about countering and more about punishing.
There's a lot of great outfighters in boxing, who taunt and drain their opponent before going for deadly body shots when they're exhausted. It's a very common style in the sport.
I love Ed so much. And I also think "shootboxing" or "standing MMA" is close to the perfect combat sport
For me as much as I loved his playstyle on paper, I couldn't get past his terrible hair. But I think he's a great addition and I think Falke was too. She wound up being my main in SFV so I hope she returns for 6 down the road.
@@DarumaFGC speaking about falke
I wish there were more characters with button charge input for their special
I also want a forward charge then back or up charge then down input
I think part of the problem of motion input is that it became less of the interesting mechanic it use to be and more of a tradition the general don't know the alternative to
And I think part of the reason for this is that fighting games still use the same motion inputs for the same stuff with little to no variation
@@sonofaglitch7549 there's a speculative video about the "zonker" (funny name I picked because of Cody's zonk punch) and how to respond to or read what's going on when an opponent potentially has move storage. There's actually a lot more hold and release inputs than you'd probably think.
I'll do a video about it soon, maybe even this month, but move inputs really do have and need purposes, while you can have forward back charge inputs or up to down, and they have existed for certain games, since that's tied to walking forward or jumping, you limit yourself heavily to what you can design those moves with. I'll go into this soon, maybe within the month, but the "why" on motion inputs is a big deal, its core to a character to have them. It's why people were mortified about sf6 modern controls because 1 button specials are really hard to balance because you can't control what situations a player can use a move in. Like a full wheel input for a command grab can generally only be done while jumping or while dashing, otherwise you won't get the move out and your character will just jumping attack instead. Technically you can do standing 360s but only in the top 0.0001% of players. It means there's a controlled environment and Zangiefs grabs aren't in play 100% of the time. Same for a quarter circle forward, it's supposed to be input in a way that prevents you from blocking while it's input, so there's danger to even trying the move.
We've seen a lot more experimentation with this stuff lately. Happy chaos & Goldlewis have really standout and unique control schemes and KOF has ALWAYS been extremely playful with them. Pretzel inputs, command grab rekkas, double half circles, almost anything you can think of.
I think standing mma is just muay thai.
Shootboxing is really nice concept. Pity it is so rare nowadays. Adding headbutts to the mix and you cannot add anything more.
I’m really hoping Dudley is in SF6 season 2… till then I’m maiming deejay
I got my fingers crossed too bro🤞
Saw this just now, how's Ed sufficing? He's like a weird mix of every type of boxer so I think he's pretty cool. You playing him or someone else?
The fact that makoto from blazblue wasnt mentioned is a travesty
Unfortunately she didn't make the cut, since I had a lot of super specific examples to mention
Where is Jax from MK and TJ Combo from Killer Instinct
If I could record footage of every game I would, but believe me these guys were in mind when I wrote the script too.
As someone who is a little more of a boxer than a gamer, what I really liked is the archetypes and styles of popular boxing characters aren't just popular household name boxers like Tyson (infighter) , Ali (outboxer) , and Foreman (slugger).
Other than Balrog, Dudley and Little Mac are based on more niche personalities in the boxing community like the gracefully dangerous British champion Chris Eubank Sr and the tough-as-nails infighting legend Jake LaMotta.
I respect the nod it gives to the boxing community, and I hope they make more characters based on real life boxers with unique styles, such as "Prince" Naseem Hamed, the slick unorthodox and heavy handed counter puncher who would definitely belong in a fighting videogame.
I think thats the interesting part of these characters for me, how regardless of the style they emulate they still do follow what we think about when we think about boxing, and ground themselves in real world styles and techniques rather than just making up moves to excel in a fighting game
Saying things like "boxer characters are almost always terrible in the air" and NOT including a clip of Little Mac eating it in Smash Bros is a huge missed opportunity.
RIP little Mac gone but not forgotten
It's funny that you showed Oro as an example of a character a boxer player might migrate to because Balrog and Oro are my favorite characters in SF5.
In my experience, and from what I see throughout the community, boxers absolutely love feeling like they're putting in the work. It's why you might be less likely to play a character like Ken or Chun li who gets off many hits from a single button press.
Do you know you have the same title as an already established series that is eight years old? It’s a Yu-Gi-Oh! series.
Some comments have told me
The fact this could get confused with yugioh at all just kinda speaks to the sheer variety in yugioh archetypes, huh?
The bad air game is why Little Mac is low on Smash tier lists.
I talked about that in an older video.
I said that finding a character archetype could go really well with a little sentence. With 3 important things. What, How and with what Tool.
Here it really apply because most boxer play different but have the same type of tools and ideas.
The what is self explanatory, grab, keed distances, hit confirm, corner carry, knock down.
How is the way the get to that State. Mobility, long range, lingering hitbox, etc.
And what tool is what part of their kit is unique or important.
So potemkin is a grappler, he want to grab you by mixing you up on wakup with his plus on block special and long range normals.
Obviously in my example it's pretty mixed up. I put long range normal in tools for potemkin, becaus they are important, but I couldn't put the fact they are long range in how because wake up mix up is more important.
A boxer would be. "main archetype", he want to ... by avoiding and counter attack with his moving specials, feint and counters.
Zato is a puppeteer, he want mix you up the corner by forcing you to block and back up, with his independant puppet.
Ruy would be a shoto, want to make you jump by keeping you at dash distance, with projectiles, good kicks and invincible anti air.
A bit longer but not long enouth to lose someone new to a game but not new to the genre.
Also Idk if that what how tool really work that great. The first 2 are sometimes hard to find. But the concept is there.
Maybe you'd like my What is an Archetype video! In it I cover something a little similar to this What/how tool. I call it Facilitation. You look at a characters
Visuals
Range
Speed
Damage
Move attributes
And take all of that to get a complete picture of a character and see everything they do, where they win and where they lose. And use that to define a characters archetype.
It's a similar idea, I just tried fleshing it out as much as I could.
@@DarumaFGC yeah watched it already. I really meant an even shorter version. Basicly your but you already did the thinking to put the information together in a super short sentence.
Like you just want to get the character you are not yet interested in them for any reasons or anything. Like you invite a friend and he see a few cool character in this fighting game he never played. A'd you have to tell him what they do in a few words.
He does not have to figure out how this character play based on the infos. Its just there plai. And simple.
Just trying to put a bot of structure on what could easily spend a bit too much time.
The only thing missing is the range wich I think is really important. But exactly like the main archetype I feel like it's always the first thing you tell someone.
Just saying that Slayer is obsessed with Dandyism, and one of the Dandiest motherfuckers in fighting games is a Boxer
Very true, and hes basically entirely built on sways and straights. But theres a huge fanbase thats primarily there for funny hotel transylvania dad j.D and less so there because theyre dudley mains. Although i do agree theres enough overlap to include him as a boxer. Just that i dont wanna see my viewerbase become "that guy" in other peoples chats and comment sections. Theres situations where its useful to categorise him as such, and others where its not.