Pietta1858 Remington - Conical VS Round
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- Опубликовано: 25 авг 2024
- Most Black Powder shooters agree that the round ball has better accuracy than conicals. (Least it's been that way till now). Thought I might see how much better by testing in my 1858 Remington replica by Pietta. The gun is a 2011 model with a 1-30 twist and shoots round balls very good.
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The reason bank robbers was such a common problem back in the day was that so many was addicted to shooting their gun and they needed money for gun powder and bullets.
Now that’s a revelation. Figures, the media and Hollywood has us thinking it was about whiskey or prostitution, not real addiction. O.R.
@@oldranger3044Right!
I think you are one of the best channels out there on the subject of the actual mechanics, accuracy testing and how to make that happen. Please, keep doing what you do.
Thank you sir.
Thanks Sir. Sounds like you’ll be interested in results from shooting three Walkers. Different twist rates, just need to take time to edit ; been busy trying my hand at duplicating a set trigger I purchased 30+ years ago at Friendship National BP shoot from a gentleman that was making them like the Southern rifles. Believe his name was Myron Carlson, and this was his Baxter Bean trigger. Thanks for the encouragement. Have a great Winter. O.R.
Watched your video and really got good information between the two bullets you tested !!! I'm starting to collect the cap & ball replicas from that era 1851- 1861 . I really enjoy shooting the ones I have and got into casting the different style bullets . Keep up the good work !
Dave Cook
Thanks Dave. I enjoy modern guns, but there's a fascination I have for the black powder ones that I can't really explain. Glad to hear that you are enjoying a new passion with old guns. O.R.
You ARE HOOKED!! Welcome! Now comes Ram Roding the Muskets and Rifles! I'm getting in Deep Too!
@@davefellhoelter1343 Yup. Hook, line, and sinker. Actually have done quite a bit with the smoke poles. Have build somewhere around 15 rifles and half dozen pistols. Need to get back to more of that. What I really need is to borrow some time from a few folks I know that spend too much of theirs doing not much. Glad to hear from you. O.R.
You got it. Excellent shooting as usual great shooting. As always well done
Even if I don't own what you are testing I still watch the video. Just to pick up on some aspect that I do not yet know. I do have Remington New Army. I like it but realize there is still a lot to learn. Thank You.
Good shootin.
Just a few observations. All conicals with lube groves should be lubed. The lube is the gas seal/bearing for the lead bullet which prevents gas cutting and lead fouling. Running a .448 bullet through a .450, .451, or. .452 lube sizer will not change the diameter. We cap round balls with grease or wax because they have no lube grooves. For those watching these videos to learn, keep your finger away from the trigger until you are ready to kill your target!
Thanks Dan, will work on that. O.R.
First off, I must say that's excellent shooting to achieve those groupings with a cap and ball revolver. I got into them several years ago, and found that I like my Pietta Remington NMA .44 the best of my collection. I started using Triple Seven powder, and I was able to achieve some outstanding velocities that many people would consider outside the capabilities of these arms. With the same 200 grain Lee conicals in front of 35 grains of fffg Triple Seven (slightly compressed to clear the face of the cylinder), I'm averaging 1135 fps, which is equivalent to 572 ft-lbs of energy at 4 yards. I do give up a little accuracy with that loading, but it's hitting about as hard as a moderate .357 mag or 10mm load. Off hand, the first cylinder groups about 3 - 4" at 15 yards with me shooting with that load. The groups open up a bit to about 4 - 6" if not cleaned, I presume due to leading from pushing the soft lead at those pressures and velocities. I quit using lube on the cylinders after experiencing a chain fire in spite of it. It seems that lubing the chamber mouths gives an opportunity for subsequent loadings to have grains stick to the cylinder walls and get crushed between the ball and the wall during loading, providing a pathway to the charge. After the first shot using hot Triple Seven loads, most of the grease gets blown out of the remaining chambers anyway. I haven't had a chain fire since stopping the cylinder face lube.
Thanks again Chris. I'm going to try some T-7 next summer, especially in the 36 cals. I have shot quite a bit of BlackMZ in them, and am starting to think that the powder does not work well with the light grain ball. It isn't black, but then it isn't exactly smokeless either. But, we know smokeless can vary when it comes to powders and bullet weights. So, maybe the T-7 will do better in the 36's (and GOEX ain't around anymore).
That's interesting about the chain fire. Someone, maybe you, said that a crushed grain or two can leave a trail, similar to a mini fuse. Since I heard (or read) that, which makes some sense, I've been more cautious and using a funnel as I usually load cylinder out of gun anyway.
That's super cool velocity for a conical. Has to make me wonder what it would do, and is it safe, in say a Walker, or Dragoon. It is said that the Walker was the most powerful handgun till the 44 Mag came along. Only heard that. Thanks again. O.R.
That most likely an issue with yer caps. Gun greese even a smeer. Keeps powder from igniting.
You have such a steady hand I though the video might have frozen until you pulled the trigger.
It’s only because my brain quits when it figures I died. 😎. O.R.
These lee molds use to be 20 - 25 bucks or so, it took me forever to find one and paid twice that. Its a nice round.
Yes, getting harder to find quite a bit of stuff. O.R.
The camera is catching the bullet in flight! So cool!
This backs up my round ball vs Eras Gone 'Colt cartridge works conical' accuracy tests with a Uberti .36 Remington new model navy. After trying lubed wads, lubed chamber mouths and dipped bullets and balls, I found the latter to be the most accurate and certainly less messy. My club doesn't appreciate lube splattered all over the shooting position walls. Dipped bullets & balls provide sufficient fouling softening for my 48 shot sessions. I'm in the UK with no local supplier of real black powder so I have to use Pyrodex P which proves more accurate than Hodgdon's 777. A .36 load of 21 grains works well with .38 cast balls and bullets.
Just wondering as I have never shot pyrodex that it may produce some less fouling than traditional black. Of course in "the day" most probably didn't have the longer shooting sessions we do now at the range, but possibly the powder then had some different characteristics than modern black and therefore fouling was not that much of an issue. (Good thing that my 8th grade English teacher can't see that last sentence). So, when my range thaws out next year, I will try some of them dipped and see if I find a difference. I think I shot some dipped ones, possibly "Eras Gone" a year ago and didn't have this good of luck. Anyway, going to give another try at it. I want one of those Remington's in 36, just need to loosen up wallet a bit (and then find a source). I ran out of the new GOEX that was in plastic, and had to resort to my stash that was from the 70's. Maybe (but I doubt) it has magic. Thanks for the interesting info. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 I've shot a lot of Pyrodex and it doesn't foul nearly as bad. However, Swiss runs great in my NMA especially after I filed grooves in the cylinder pin.
@@nonokodog622 👍O.R.
Mille Balls or conical use the groves for smithing out the shot and flattening the curve. That is why they group better than round balls.
Great video!
I recently started shooting these LEE 200 grain conicals and they are amazingly accurate in my Pietta Remington NMA as well. My Pietta is 1994 vintage. My revolver seems to have a little more room under the ram than yours and these bullets load perfectly on it. I’m using a 30 grain by volume of FFFg triple seven and lubed of course. I’m getting tiny group sizes all the way out to fifty yards. At fifty yards I’m getting all my shots inside a six inch circle from a rested position. I don’t use sand bag type rest I just support my shooting hand on a flat cushion on a table top. The reason I got this mold was to use this bullet and a full charge to hunt deer and to my pleasant surprise was just how tight the groups were. I’m planning to take my deer at forty yards or less but I did extensive shooting with this load at ten yard intervals out to fifty just to see how it performed.
It is a great bullet.
Thank you
I really enjoy your videos.
Thanks. I haven't shot as much as you with this bullet, but real happy to hear that others have similar results. I didn't expect this conical would do as well as the round ball. Six inches at 50 shows some real promise, especially only resting the arms. I would bet that the 30 grain of triple 7, well, lets just say that you can tell it went off. Stay safe. O.R.
Looks awesome wish my generation liked black powder weapons
Best shooting I've ever seen with C & B revolver. Impressive 👍
Holy Hannah! Either one looks good! Great shooting and video!
My Pietta 1858 Sheriff loves conicals. I've been shooting a mold from Tom's Accurate Molds that I really like. I also reamed the throat with the Brownell's tool. Cheers !
Nobody ever says what size of conicals they shoot, but they always say ".451", ".454", ".457".....thanks for being specific
Thanks for the comment, glad you liked the video. O.R.
Darn good info though. Me and my shooting buddy are gonna buy some bp revolvers. 1st time shooting em. We been shooting the rifles.
Seems you’re on the right trail, checking out ahead to get some ideas of what’s involved. Hard to do that when I first started. Books cost a fair amount and there was no way to know if it contained the wanted and helpful information needed until you owned it. No RUclips or forums then. Have fun and be careful. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 yeah, im 58 years old. We darn sure didnt have internet or any forums out there to check stuff out. Bit im sure thankful for the advise in the vids
Me m my shooting buddy use the .44 cal round balls, they do great
I too shoot mostly round. Lead supply holds out longer, and personally not taking game, but even if used, the soft round ball can be effective. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 yeah, we only shoot at steel targets with em ourselves. They are fun to shoot, but its alot of cleaning when we're done, lol.
Pleased to see how well the conicals do!
Hope this finds you in good health. I just got to drop you a quick note about my excitement about a completed quest. After many years of trying I have added the last desired cap n ball Remington to my collection. New in the box for years just sitting in someone's basement, a steel frame 12" model. Its gotta be on a next year deer hunt. I'm definitely going to reinvest in a chrono now, especially with the new bullets I'm trying and now 4 more inches too.
Thought I was going to freeze to the Iron Mule forwarder today, 4 degrees and a 25 MPH wind. Not sure, but don't think I've seen a Rem with that length barrel advertised. Is that why you have been on the look? That's an interesting test, to see how much more the 4 inches will do with speed. You now need a chrono !! How much powder do you usually use on the conicals? Sounds like you need to start a pool, betting on how much more speed it will pick up. One dollar a guess, and the winner gets a box of 100 454 Hornadys, which by the way, I see Midway USA has on sale. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 The 12" model was known as the "Buffalo Hunter". I picked up a used one and someone had made an ugly job of adding a detachable Henry buttstock. As a carbine length deer rifle, it will do the job out to 50-65 yards or so. My eyes aren't what they once were, so I try to keep it reasonable.
@@russbilzing5348 Sounds like an interesting find. I have access to a buffalo now that my cousin got a new one from MidWay (Traditions). Brass with adjustable sights. Will be interesting to Chronograph to see what the extra 4 inches will do to speeds. Also to check the adjustable sights because someone commented that they don’t adjust low enough. Will see. O.R.
Excellent job. I’ve had similar results with my Piettas and Ubertis at 25 yards. The bigger .456 bullets seem to work better in my guns. The .375 in my navy does well also. Note: this changes if I use something other than Crisco for lube. The lubed wads do not work as well.
T30, I didn't expect the conicals to do this well. Of course there is the chance it was just probability, therefore plan to do more checking in 2022. Lots of shooters use the wads. They are less of a hassle probably and not as messy as the lube. Even less hassle is nothing. Again, maybe just probability, but that too has been my experience with the wads. I have actually found them at the target backstop, and I believe sometimes adhere to the rear of the projectile. That can't do anything for accuracy if true. Many times when I think I have something figured out, one more target casts doubts on it. Anyway, thanks for the comment and safe shooting. O.R.
The lubed wads were terrible for me. I use toilet ring wax for my lube. I have noticed that the .456 works great for my Italian replicas but my genuine colt replicas like the smaller .451 if using the loading lever but if using a loading stand it doesn’t matter.
@@oldranger3044 This might not be an entirely applicable analogy to cap and ball revolvers, but I retrieved some of the projectiles when doing load development for my 45-100 sharps. I used either .030 or .060 card wads and on several rounds they were firmly attached to the base of the bullet. So they flew through 200yrds of air, went through 2 sheets of 3/4" plywood and 3-4 inches of books/paper material and still remained firmly attached to the base of the bullet. Remarkable.
My theory and observation, the pressure from ignition forces the wad firmly up against the base of the bullet, even deforming the base of the bullet to somewhat concave. Meanwhile, the lead on the rear driving band deforms as it engages the rifling, rolling over and forming a wire-edge of lead that further attaches the wad to the base of the bullet.
Your conclusion after finding wads at your backstop that they were getting stuck to the back of the bullets, especially conicals, at least in my observations, has validity.
@@chaecoco2 I think it relates. When I use wads I have found them by the target and I believe some made it into the sand. Also some were found stuck in the cardboard target backing. Possibly the ball made it but not the wad. Also noticed the wads have a definite concave on one side. This probably isn’t observed if only shooting steel or other objects. Thanks for your comment. O.R.
Yes I love the the way lee conicals handle in all my Remington new models. In bot peitta, uberti. .36 and
44 cal. I have and still do lube as you did on occasion, and melt my lube in a shallow tin and dip the bullets than set flat on wax paper to cool. By far my favorite way to lube is with a high concentration of beeswax cooled and cut into stick form than rub into the grooves. I choose this method mainly as it is convenient to lube what you as you need it, and I think less mess. With all that being said I found no decernable differance in accuracy between the 3 methods just as long as I'm not leaving lube on the base of the bullet. For me that's a no no as for me in my past it was a everyday tool that could be loaded for long periods of time. This is also one of the reasons I don't care for lubed wads. Side note on my 1866 uberti I tend to use ffg or equivalents for. Never put this to the test with a chrono, but in theory longer barrel slower rate of burn.
I still have test fired the lee real 250 grs yet out of the old army, but can tell you they loaded easily in the the revolver. I have also now have the 200 gr real bullet mould to test. Another side note I want with over the top lube for the first cylinder on the ruger with this bullet. I also shoot kaido bullets as well
That could be where I failed with conicals a year or so back. I might not have sliced off the lube on the bottom. I know I dipped them. I also suspect that lube in that area somehow effects the burn; at least the latter part of it. I remember when I shot some from just the cylinder that the speeds were only about 1/2 to 2/3's what they were with the barrel, telling us that the burn isn't over like it is in smokeless. I know the lube top of the bullet is messy, and once the fire from the barrel caught my towel on fire that I had been using to protect the bench. I thought, boy, that smoke is taking a long time to clear out! What is the diameter of that real mold?? Thanks for the info. O.R.
I bought the eras home .44 British Kerr mold. Casted about 200 of em. Have t had a chance to shoot ‘em yet. Hopefully they are reasonably accurate.
That Kerr is on “Honey Do List”. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 they mold up nice. I dipped the grooves in Lee liquid alox, let them dry then coated entire bullet with spray on wipe off carnuba car wax. They are almost too pretty to shoot.
I've started acquiring reloading supplies and equipment for modern day ammo and want to start casting my own bullets, thinking that starting with black powder would be less expensive and educational
Casting round ball for pistol or rifle involves less setup and expense than for modern. It is a good place to start to see how you like it. You of course have to take necessary precautions with black powder firearms, and there are definite No-No's, but with some homework it offers a good starting point. Best wishes, and I hope you enjoy the quest. O.R.
Great video, a lot of useful information 👍 Just got Uberti Remington 44. Thinking about getting some conicalls for it. This 450 200 seems to be the best option. I think pressing 452 with the lever attached to the revolver, would be slower and harder.
The Lee mold seems good because it has a smaller base so that way it is easier to start. O.R.
This man can shoot.
Them Remies are great shooters ..!
I was just wondering if you have shot the Johson and Dow conicals in any of your revolvers and if you have how they performed. I need to modify my loading lever stem before I can seat them without damaging the nose.
I have some 180gr round nose conicals made by Buffalo Bullet co., that shoot impressively well out of my Pietta. Unfortunately, the company has gone out of business. I have about 100 or so left over and when they are gone that's it. So glad you posted this video of your results with the lee conical. I might order the mold and give it a go.
I do have that mold but haven’t shot it enough to give an account for it. I’m thinking it shot well enough, but don’t remember much else. I mostly shoot round ball, I suppose because I heard or read that it is more accurate. No one ever seems to say by how much. We can say however that the round ball uses less lead, has less recoil, and will shoot lower which is a plus for colt style guns.
I think either the Dow or Lee are good choices, maybe someone has done a comparison. There’s a video project somewhere along that path.
That 180 conical sounds interesting because its not a heavy bullet. O.R.
Excellent shooting and information.
i think you need to up your charge to about 30 gr. Your point of impact will be lower
Will try, thanks 😊. O.R.
The groups are awesome,just a bit high
? Ever use corn meal over your powder charge to avoid chain fire and light on borebutter . I've had success in smaller caliber revolvers.
Yes. Use it when shooting reduced loads, especially in 44’s. Thought the reduced loads would be more accurate for paper punching. Needed it to be sure powder was compressed and it placed the ball closer to the forcing cone in the barrel. Then with lube, chain fires chance from that end is as close to zero as can be had. Thing is, I seem to “possibly “ be getting as good or better groups with medium power loads without the corn meal. I do then also use lube. Thanks for your comment. O.R.
I use 35g FFF (for deer hunting) in my Uberti 1858 Remington New Army and it shot low. I had to shave off about 1/8 inch from the top of the front siight to get the accuracy that I wanted at 20 yards.
@@davidbarnes7711 That’s exactly what I’ve discovered with mine. If both them and the colts are copied from originals (which is probably true), government must have tested them before contracts. Colts shoot high (some folks think the government wanted them on at 100yds), if that was the case, then how about Remingtons that would be 2 feet low at 100 ??? After all, aren’t these close range weapons? Thanks for your comment. O.R.
Nice video, good shooting
Good video, much enjoyed. Thumbs up Sir!~John
Nice groups. Glad you nailed that last pesky can. LoL
Yes, I was beginning to think I had gone to seed. Don't care to see the CAN boys win. Suppose we should call it a "draw". Pretty tricky of that #2 can to flip itself upside down so the hole was at the top, making me think I was shooting high. O.R.
Thanks for the info!
NICE Groups! I'd take it with a Big smile!
Mine likes .454 I "Think" it is an Uberti, but I built it about 45 yrs ago and my 12 yr old self did not like a brand on it so I removed before I blued.
I am working up a Johnson and Dow paper cartage, my own caps and powder recipe, it's the chase!
I see You must have Calipers on hand? I am trying to get a new 2nd cylinder. My existing cylinder is 2.005 front to rear gross. I ordered one that came in about .015 longer, I am guessing this was for a Pietta?
Would you have the time or desire to measure your Pietta cylinder gross front to rear?
Keep those Smoke tarins SMOKING!
Hi. My Pietta 1858 is around 2.021, so I think you are right. Hope this helps. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 Thank You SIR! Very Helpful.
I appreciate this video. Good on you!
Did you have to make any modification to shoot lee conical bullets? Thank you
I will check out several different guns this evening and get back to you. Also sounds like there could be enough interest to do a presentation on this and will send you a link if I do. Thanks. O.R.
Sorry I got busy. Planning to make video on the subject. Both Remingtons are ok, Pietta and Uberti. Same with the 1860’s. The Pietta1851 44 caliber would need some serious work. O.R.
Just posted video you might be interested in. ruclips.net/video/UtbWl1E_PNQ/видео.html
@@oldranger3044 Thank you very much!!! I really appreciate it. I bought the Pietta 1858 with hardened steel frame some days ago, but it was out of stock so I'm waiting and exited for it
@@gabrielwolf7534 Good choice I feel. That should have the faster twist and will handle the conicals, especially with the steel frame. Enjoy, and keep safe. O.R.
The difference between the 5 and 6 shot groups might be because you have one atypical chamber..... check them for consistency and roundness... I have found that small anomalies of this kind are not uncommon... easily fixed with careful use of a reamer... 🙂
I lube the Lee conicals with a 457" die which doesn't touch the bullets but does lube them... No need for lube up front then...saves the mess...
Your groups are about the same as mine.... the New Army Remington is an accurate pistol... like you I found the conicals are just a shade more accurate, but the difference is not enough to make a difference. I got a POI about 2" higher with the conicals...again not enough to be a problem for the purposes for which I use them.
My pistols are Ubertis.....
Will check, thanks. O.R.
How about in cartridges? I used 45 round balls in my 45 colt loadings quite a few times, I got a conical mold so that is what I use now.
This particular mold is billed as a .450, and the pure lead ones I cast were .448. Casting an alloy might get it to the .450 range. Even so, it could be small for the 45 colt that may need a .541 or larger. If your 45 round balls were for the revolvers, then they were probably .454, unless for a 45 cal muzzleloader which probably used a .440 which would have dropped into the case. Hope this helps, and thanks for the comments. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 yes i used .454 round balls and i think they shot better in my peacemaker
@@HircineDaWolf I powder coated some 451's I believe and had decent results also. I think the issue I had was they wanted to slide around inside the case. I didn't care for that much. Changing the space between powder and bullet can have a nasty effect on pressures, think that soured me on the process. But, I believe I was getting decent enough accuracy for what my intent was. Might want to keep an eye on yours to be sure they aren't creeping back (or forward) in the case. Sound like the conical mold took care of this. O.R.
Excellent shooting, and conclusive results for the conicals, are these the same as "Eras Gone" conicals ? Chris B.
I believe not. The Ears Gone are pretty much accurate copies of what was used in the 1800's. The ones here are Lee MFG, and are designed different. A interesting test would be to see how they compare. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 The only Eras Gone mould I have is the Conical Dragoon ,and that performs very well, I look forward to seeing you test the 1800 style mould, stay safe! Chris B.
Great job. Tnx
Those bullets are dropping undersize -- easily solved by running the mold a few tens of degrees hotter while casting. My Pietta (purchased from Cabella's in 2017) likes a .451 round ball and I wouldn't expect a .448 bullet to shave that critical ring of lead during loading. This makes two problems; first, you may only get a good seal to prevent chain fire in the (slightly tapered) chamber by seating the bullet deeper over a reduced powder charge; and second, the bullet will not fill the grooves and lead to reduced accuracy and increased fouling. I haven't watched the whole video yet, however; I'll be interested to see what you come up with, since I'd expect a correctly sized conical under about 225 grains to be more accurate than cast round ball (especially without considerable attention to center the sprue cut).
Edit: Well, your gun's chambers and bore are more undersize than your bullets, and a good fit for what you're dropping from your mold, and the results show it. I'd be happy with groups like that from my Dan Wesson Model 15 with modern .357 factory ammunition or my own handloads. Yet more evidence that cap and ball can do what's needed if the shooter does his or her part...
Dang, you had to mention Dan Wesson. Its won of those things I try to forget. I bought a pistol pack back in the 80’s (4 barrels, case, etc). In a not so intelligent move I got about $250 for it on a trade in the early 2000’s. 😫😫😫. That aside, thanks for your comment and information. I have fairly good luck with conicals in some guns, but so far the round ball seems to have a slight edge. Oh, I know it doesn’t make sense, but I don’t seem to get noticeable improvement loading sprue up, and I’ve done quite a few tests. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 I've only shot swaged round ball in my Pietta '58.
I got my first Dan Wesson from a pawn shop in 1981; it was stolen in a home break-in in Seattle in 1987, and I bought a replacement before police recovered the gun and eventually returned it to me -- but with a bent crane that caused it to shave lead. I eventually sold off the original (with the 4 inch barrel I'd gotten with the replacement frame -- I kept the 6 inch) to someone who I guess expected to repair it or part it out.
I find it impressive that a 165 year old design copied by an Italian knock-off maker can perform like a top-end 1970 revolver -- including similar power and versatility. Paper or hard cartridges give what amounts to a speed loader; a practiced shooter can reload a Colt or Remington (copy) with cartridges and caps almost as fast as reloading a gate-loaded single action.
@@SilntObsvr I can’t figure how they can shoot that well, beats the heck out of me, but I’m sure not complaining because I like the guns and my complements to the manufacturers. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 Everything in harmony, that's what does it.
Single actions are more likely to be correctly locked up at the moment of ignition, and less likely to be moving due to hand pressures, than shooting double action. If the chamber and barrel sizes match well, you'll get a good bore seal and rifling action; a bullet like the Lee 450-200 or Johnston & Dow, designed to load straight in a cap and ball revolver, gives the best chance of concentric spin, and enough lube to ensure fouling from the first cylinder doesn't destroy the accuracy of the second and third means you keep what you had in the clean gun.
Pietta repros are known to be hit and miss -- some are quite good, others shoot like crap. You apparently got a good one. Mine is good as well, so perhaps the reputation is undeserved, or perhaps Pietta has fixed their quality control, or maybe we just got good ones.
It is a Remington New Model Army. It was never referred to as an "1858" Remington.
Thanks David. Makes sense because at that time there probably weren’t other Remingtons, so references to the date wasn’t necessary. My history is not good in that area, possibility it was called the new model as it replaced an older one? Was the term Army used to differentiate it not being Navy model? O.R.
@@oldranger3044 yes, on all accounts. Remington patented an Army revolver in 1858, then modified the design and called it the New Model Army. Technically, if we were to use the date it would be an 1861 Remington Army. Back then the army required .44 caliber revolvers, and the Navy purchased .36’s.
Very nice video, I’m happy to have stumbled across it.
@@woodnbow Thanks, glad you found it interesting. O.R.
I have but not yet used my conical bullet. I will put the lube around the rings of the bullet: it's enough to prevent chainfire (I'm in trouble because this is less than .450 and my Remington using .454/.457 round bullets) or it needs to lube and cover completely the top of the chamber ??
Can you measure the conical? If it goes into a chamber without any force (drops in) or slides out, it’s not good to use. Putting lube will probably prevent chain fires (never a guarantee), but there are more issues. One would be accuracy because of the undersized bullet not filling the bore and spinning to stabilize. Another could be that unfired bullets might move forward in the chambers due to recoil. There may be others. This probably isn’t good news for your plan, but it’s wise to be giving this some thought as you are, before proceeding. Lee manufacturing does produce a good conical mold for the ROA at a reasonable price, and it is available from many sellers. Hope this helps. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 Excuse me Old Ranger at time 4:13 (I'm not very well in English) are you telling that is it difficult to load this kind of conical bullet in the chamber? In case of this kind of bullet is part of a papercartridge then it is not possible to incline the bullet? Your Remington is an original Pietta ?
@@ArgoPower I have not tried a paper cartridge, but I believe they might present problems. Perhaps someone with this experience can comment. The conical I used was produced from a Lee Manufacturing mold. It is probably not designed to be made into a paper cartridge. It can be slid into the chamber of a Pietta at a slight angle and then move the cylinder some for it to get under the loading lever. It just takes more adjusting and time than the round ball, but can be done I believe without modification to the frame. O. R.
Close only counts with horse shoes and hand grenades.
👍🏻 great shooting an teaching
Be interesting to see how those shoot in your fast twist 1858
Right. Pretty sure I haven't tried them in any of the faster twist Pietta's ( only have the laser engraved one), or the older1858 (2012) Uberti ( that also has the fast twist) where Pietta's of that age I believe still was 1-30. Anyway, with 4 inches of snow and temps in the 20's I'll pass on that till next summer. Thanks for a motivational idea. O.R.
Will a a 45 long colt Pietta will it stop at grizzly bear 1873 revolver
@@user-sh6ol6st3k I’d only be guessing or giving an opinion. Don’t know about you, but I’ve only been close to a mounted one. Man, they are huge ! If it were charging and pumped up with adrenaline, it would probably be smart to save a couple bullets for yourself and anybody else that’s with you. O.R.
how do i size downt he heel after casting while leaving the drive band lager?
sorry, I don’t have a suggestion for that, but you maybe could get some ideas by posting this on a forum like “cast bullets”. O.R.
Those are not bad for a pistol. I do a lot of precision shooting. The first thing I noticed that may have opened your groups up was that the target was moving a lot in the wind. So this easily could have been a tighter group if you eliminated that variable.
Thanks. Right don’t count out Mariah.
it makes material for the caps 😀
Recycle-recycle-recycle. I have 1K plus, various brands, but I think I like red best. Probably something from my childhood. O.R.
Nice shootin’, man!
Thanks, probably got lucky. O.R.
I almost started making homemade body armor from Pepsi cans after this.
Only good with the ones that use real sugar!
Wow, nice shootin' O.R.!
Nice 👍🏻 one sir.
In my experience with this particular weapon the heavier the bullet the higher it shoots
True with most. Heavier means more recoil which elevates the barrel more. The heavier slug is in the barrel slightly longer because of its slower speed, so the barrel is tipped a little higher when it exits than the faster lighter one. At least this makes sense to me, but maybe there is another explanation. Thanks for pointing this out. O.R.
Tack driver. Keep up the videos.
I shoot rounds and have thought about doing conicals for sake of accuracy. Not much improvement for the trouble as I see. I'm good with rounds from here on out. BTW, for the hell of it, I started carrying it as a carry arm. Few people know the difference. AND...In Missouri it is NOT a firearm! Laws are stupid. I can carry this anywhere and not my 1911?!?!
I’m certainly not the most experienced but even if the conicals do better in some guns and loads, it’s like the old nursery rhyme. When she was nice she was very very nice, but when she was bad she was horrible. I’ve seen that happen with 36 calibers, especially when they have slow twists. Right about a lot of stuff that makes little or no sense. O.R.
hey there new subscriber here, what primers do you prefer, or find to work best? thanks
Of the ones I've used, the Remington's #10 seem to fit best on the newer guns. These would be my first choice. CCI #11 would be next for these guns. Older guns from the 60's,70's,or 80's might need the #10 CCI's because of smaller nipples; most likely the #10 Remington's would be a bit large. Problem is, not much is available currently as you probably know. Hope this is helpful. O.R.
les ogives coulées avec 15% d étain sont très précises
Oui, mais assez cher O.R.
Good shooting but I would caution you on trigger discipline
excuse me again O.R., it means, if I use the same Lee conicals .450 bullets in my Pietta Remington 1858, is that safe? not chainfire? it means that this conical are good sealing the cylinder without problems? the only trouble is that are difficult to load in the Pietta Replica?
The 200 grain Lee conicals will give good protection from chain fires. Putting a lube (even pure crisco) over the bullet nose after it is seated in the cylinder chamber gives added protection. No one of course can guarantee that chain fire won’t happen, but I have never had one with the procedure. The Lee conicals will be able to load without removing the cylinder because they have a smaller section
at the base for starting, so you should be good to go. O. R.
@@oldranger3044 ❤ thank you!!
So a .450 conical should work if I do the same? I'm planning to get an 1858 myself
This was a conical cast from a Lee Black Powder Mold #90382 and is 200 grains. There may be issues with a conical designed for the 45 ACP or 45 long colt, even if sized to .450. The Lee has a special area at the base that helps to start the bullet in the cylinder, and has a larger section toward the nose, so yes, if you get the mold by Lee there should be no problems. O.R.
I don't think those connicals will work in my '51 navy (pietta). There isn't enough space in the loading groove. I could load them in the cylinder first with a bench loader I guess, then put it together.
Just checked and it almost goes. Hangs up on the bottom side (above the trigger guard). Looks like removing .050 in. would give clearance. I was surprised that they come that close, that recess is designed of course for a 36 conical. Figured this info might be useful if someone is considering conicals. I think however there could be strength issues if it is a brass frame shooting conicals with a large charge of powder, especially 777. O. R.
how did you divide 8.35 by 6 and get 2.06, I got 1.39.
I should have explained better about the averages. The day before I shot the round balls. I shot 4 targets, six shots per target. I measured both a six and five shot group size for each target. The average 6 shot group (4 targets) was 2.06. So, I had four group sizes, not six. Six is the number of shots in each of the four groups, so divide by four to get the average group size. It can be a bit confusing, and I didn’t take the time in the video to explain, sorry about that. Thanks for asking, and hope this helps. Any other questions I can try to explain. O. R.
What is the tag on the trigger guard?
HI. Just a note to myself about when and how the gun was last cleaned. Sometimes I include how it shoots as far as point of aim with a given load. O.R.
Is that a 44 cal. 1858? If so, how you want for it??
Right, it is a 44. It doesn't always shoot that good, or maybe it's me. I'm very impressed with the Pietta's in the 44, and of course also the Uberti's. This is a slower twist (about 1-30) as it is a 2011 I believe. The newer ones are faster and also shoot very well. I picked this one up at a gun show. Actually just bought it because if was priced right; never expected it to shoot like it does. Thanks for the positive comment. O.R.
What's your opinion on using semolina or cornmeal instead of a felt wadding?
Haven't tried semolina, but have used cornmeal. Since part of the reason for the lubed felt wads is to attempt to keep the fouling soft so it will be more or less pushed out by the next shot, the corn meal will not do that. Traditionally, it has been used so the charge of powder can be reduced (usually in target competition shooting), and the bullet will be closer to the barrel which is supposed to increase accuracy. That is my understanding.
In any case, if it is used, it will probably do a good job of reducing, or eliminating chain fire possibilities from the forward end of the chambers. Lube should be applied after the ball is in place to help with the fouling issue. I have tried a felt wad after the ball; pretty much forget that idea. I feel that the filler does less to affect powder burn and accuracy than a greasy wad on top of the powder. Just my opinions, hope they help answer the question. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 Thank you for your response! I like using semolina since unlike felt waddings, I've never seen it reach the target and make a hole. As for the lube, I always use plenty on top of any projectile, cap&ball or percussion cartridge. It just makes it so much easier to clean.
@@matic4175 Thats been my experience also. I put the barrel (along with the frame of course in the 1858's) and cylinder in water, and can tell because it doesn't get as black as with other methods of loading. O.R.
The problem is the pietta doesn’t load conicals easily out of the box. I’ve gotten good at it or good enough for me anyways. The other problem is while Ubertis are designed for conicals, the .450 conicals don’t fit. There too loose. If you load then you risk a chain fire. I’m waiting to buy a .452 .45LC mold which should fit fine. Anyways my point is don’t use the .450” mold bullets in an Uberti!!! You could use lube but why? I think I’d rather have a 250 grain bullet anyways. I have no doubt it would fit behind 40 grains in the 1858. When I load a 220 grain it has plenty of room.
I probably didn’t have the clearance issue because I believe I was loading the cylinder out of the Pietta. I’ve had the same problem with the Lee in Uberti’s. As you pointed out, it can cause issues, like when a cap failed to ignite powder, but sent the loose conical far enough ahead to keep the cylinder from rotating. Actually was lucky it didn’t make it into the barrel because we can all guess that would be bad. Just not sure what would sustain the worst damage; gun, shooter, or anyone on left or right. Thanks for bringing this fit issue so others are aware. O.R.
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The conical are more powerful right?
Yes Dan, believe so. They have more recoil (unless downloaded). The recoil is a good indicator of energy given to the bullet. In 44 caliber, fully loaded,, neither should be underestimated. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 thanks. i was told 225 grain conical makes it similar to 44 special? Normal round nose is 380. What about 45 conversion ? Sorry if I'm bombarding you with questions. Its just hard to find this info
@@DefendJesusCrown73 The conversion would be for low end 45 colt cartridges and I’m betting less energy than a full black powder conical.
A typical 44 spl load with a 200 gr slug will probably be going in the low 700 ft/ sec range. A 190 gr conical with 35 gr 4F (not recommended for other than ruger) can be in the high 700’s. A 250 gr 45 colt smokeless cartridge will be in the 550’s, typical for the conversions. Compare that with a 255 grain 45 black powder cartridge loading 37 gr 2F at 773 ft/ sec. Hopefully I’m close to correct and this helps. Sources are black powder loading manual and black powder handbook. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 thanks 👍
@@oldranger3044 So if I was to take a 200 grain conical. Load it with the max load of pyrodex 27 or 28 grains. Would that put me around a 40 caliber? Can I get away with loading it a little above the max load? I got 1860 snub nose
It looks like some of the conical bullets were keyholing
Interesting observation. I’ve sort of assumed that it was just the way the paper was tearing out., and I would expect larger size of the groups if that were the case, as this is 21 yds, so one would think that they would be start to widen some. You make a good point for having a backing on the targets. Sounds like a job my wife might be interested in. Thanks again for your comment. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 I have two,Ruger Old Army Stainless Steel revolvers.One is the 5 1/2” barrel with,fixed sights. The other is the 7 1/2” inch barrel with adjustable sights.Neither pistol has liked conical bullets.
@@jamesdavis8021 If I’m correct, those have a pretty fast twist which one would think is a good deal for a conical. Thats one of the things about the sport, the challenge of figuring out why things work (or don’t). I have a fast twist Uberti (1-16), it doesn’t care much for them either. That Pietta is an older model that has a 1-30, maybe the faster twist guns are stripping them, not being gain twist. Beats me. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 I would be content to use round balls exclusively.They group well but, think I might be able to improve it by reducing the ball size.When ramming a.457 ball, I have noticed a significant amount of lead being shaved off the balls.It’s never even.That has to affect the concentricity of the ball
@@jamesdavis8021 I don’t shoot the ROM that much but I should think a 454 should work. I m curious about how you load as far as lube, wads, ect.
Mr. Ranger, what do you use for lube? Did you say that you sized the conical? And one more, maybe stupid question: would filing down your front sight make it shoot even higher?
Yes James, taking down the front sight would not be a good thing, as it will shoot higher. I do not size the conicals (Lee) 450's, load and shoot as cast from pure lead. I mix my own as buying stuff like Bore butter can get expensive if one shoots a lot.
Beeswax and Crisco, mixed in the amounts that give the right texture you may want some sort of oil like olive oil to loosen it as the wax mikes it stiff. Lots of formula's online. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 Thanks buddy
not stabilized
Just gotta file down the front sight a smidge and it'll be dead on.
That's what I'm thinking Mike. Haven't shot this one much, so do want to shoot some more to be as sure as possible. Thanks for viewing. O.R.
Wouldn't that make it shoot higher?
My old army won't shoot a lot better.
Interesting. I know the Old Army's are good, but can't say that mine shoots better either. I like the Old Army, but I'd rather clean the Remington. O.R.
I have a Uberti Remington Army .44(2008 Vintage) and a Ruger Old Army (1973 vintage). I'd say one is as accurate as the other, although I personally get tighter groups from the Uberti Remington because the original-style sights of rear "V" and post front work better for my eyes over the target style sights of the Ruger. The Uberti has 1-in-19 inch twist rifling, while the Ruger has 1-in-16 inch twist rifling. Both shoot conical bullets into VERY tight groups. I prefer the conicals due to the grease grooves holding lube and making field loading very simple. I hot dip lube the conicals in a 2/3rd's beeswax, 1/3rd coconut oil homemade lube and it works great! From a solid bench rest, I've been able to head shoot (roughly 3" 6-shot groups) full-sized silhouette targets at 100 yards with the Uberti Remington, using the Lee 200 grain conical, and the 230 grain Era's Gone Kerr conical! These quality C&B revolvers are superbly ACCURATE and they hit hard. I've changed all the nipples to quality nipples having very tiny flash holes for minimal back pressure, which effectively limits cap jams. It also allows me to use Swiss 4Fg black powder, which shoots even harder than 777 3Fg! My starting charge is about 20-22 grains of 4Fg and I'll work up to about 30-35 grains. Best balance between tight groups and a hard hitting load is around 28 grains 4Fg normally (1.8 cc powder scoop level full). Let's just say the muzzle velocity is "around" 1000 fps, because most people won't believe the real velocity! These C&B revolvers are incredibly capable and reliable handguns, if you are willing to work with them a bit!
@@63DW89A Thanks, that's interesting.
Umm, get your finger away from the trigger!
Do conical fly higher due to higher breech pressure
Pressure is more, but generally the heavier bullet causes more upward barrel movement due to increased recoil. The bullet moving slower than the lighter ones is therefore launched at a more increased upward angle because it doesn’t leave the barrel at the lower angle, causing a higher shot. Hope that makes sense and that it is correct. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 thank you
Something i noticed that you do in many of your videos is not weigh your bullets. Your cast bullets are not consistent. It is critical that your bullets are without marring or frosting. Either of these are indications of improper heating of the mold or lead without fluxing the lead. This also causes the bullets you cast to vary to the degree that it effects accuracy. What many people don't get it that your bullet is moving forward and spinning on an axis. if That Axis is off center , the bullet whether it is a conical or round ball will wobble and be off bore sight due to displaced bullet weight along its axis.
I made a video years back, please check it out. Not trying to be a know it all, just trying to help you to understand why things are not the way you expect. Bullet weight is critical for accuracy. group your bullets by weight. Bullets that don't match re-cast.
I've been shooting BP guns since i as 11. I built my first BP pistol at age 14 (CVA Colonial pistol kit .45 cal. 6 inch, 1-56 twist Spanish barrel). I turned it into a pirate pistol by making and adding a brass butt plate and brass side plate. Carried it into my 20s. I could hit a bowling pin at 70 yards with a lee (short base) .45 Maxi-ball. 254grs. every time...
Here is my revolver video. ruclips.net/video/Xjy8-Yw_clo/видео.html . Also on my channel is an earlier video where i show how i load the CVA 1858.
Thanks. Checked out the video. Yes, I do not weigh bullets, In fact, seldom do I pay attention to where the flat cut off is, as I use enough lube to stop a flash from getting by in the event that the flat is on the side of the chamber. Sounds like you’re an excellent shot, can’t say I was ever that good. Keep up the good work, and stay safe. O. R.
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