Thanks for the sub and comment. Every now and then my brain clicks on something. Will try to keep things that I think might have interest or value. While on that page, would you be interested in my thoughts about why I feel the 51 navy in the Cody Museum in Wyoming actually belonged to Wild Bill Hickok?
the original Colt instructions were to load this way. But remember it was 6 shots and either go home and clean and reload, or you next of kin took the gun home and cleaned and reloaded. If you needed more than six shots you would pull out a second revolver.
I've been experimenting with different powder loads, cast & swaged round ball, Lee and Eras Gone cast conicals, lubed felt wads, fibre wads, lube over the projectile, between the wad & projectile and nothing at all in my .36 Uberti Remington New Model Navy. I found most of these either inaccurate and/or messy. The final experiment proved the most successful = 21 grains of Pyrodex P (I can't source real BP) under Lee .380 (not .375) cast round balls dipped in a molten 50/50 mix of Beeswax and Lamb Tallow. Allow to set with the flat sprue resting on greaseproof paper. This doesn't blast lube all over the club range dividing walls, is quick and easy to load and gives the best accuracy I've ever achieved with this revolver. What's more, the bore fouling remained soft even after 48 continuous shots without wiping.
You've been busy. I never thought of dipping the round balls, but that would seem to be an excellent idea to get some lube on the powder side without using something like a grease cookie. Also, for quite awhile Ive been suspicious that the 36 calibers with the 1-30 twist, my Pietta is 1-30, and I believe someone said Uterti is also, which would go against their 51's and 61's, have issues as far as stability if the ball doesn't take the twist.. Don't want to be quoted on this, yet. One in 30 is the same as their 44's and shouldn't smaller need faster?? All I used to shoot was the 36's, and always seemed to have flyer problems. Was amazed when I started with the 44's that seemed not to be the issue. That you could shoot that many without cleaning tells us that it is working and something I would like to try. I would guess that setting them the way you did will add extra lube where it is needed. Thanks. O.R.
That sounds great, I'm going to try that. The greaseproof paper is just wax paper? And your barrel length is 7 1/2"? I use grease cookies mainly (about 1/8" thick) and when I'm done shooting there are always two vertical black lines or BP crud and lube alongside the range walls... I usually load 21 grains too, with a .380 RB in my 2nd Gen Colt Navy.
@@oldranger3044 My .36 Uberti has a 1 in 32 inch twist rate and a 7 3/8" barrel....or it HAD, before I shortened it to 6" for better balance and dovetailed for a .5" tall Skinner front sight filed to fine tune the aim and striking point. Other mods - slightly chamfering the chamber mouths to prevent lead shaving off, checking the cylinder - barrel alignment and polishing the forcing cone as it was rough. I bought the revolver new in 2013 and was disappointed with accuracy for a long time, despite trying every tip and trick in the book. There were times I came close to selling or trading before relenting until frustration calmed down. One day last year I was dipping cast .45/70 bullets in the pan when the idea about dipping .36 balls sprung to mind. The theory is the powder melts the lube at the back which follows the ball down the bore gliding on lube at the front while leaving a film for the next shot and lubing the cylinder pin. As you'll know, Remington cylinder pins soon foul making the pin difficult to remove. My remedy is to half withdraw the pin and add a few drops of vegetable oil every 12 or 18 shots. One observation when testing the dipped bullets is the first cylinder load aren't as accurate. I use these as fouling shots prior to getting down to business. Certainly give it a try, there's no guarantee it will work with your Piettas and .45s. Whatever, experimenting is fun in itself.
@@Prowbar Yes, wax paper, I'm in the UK, we call it greaseproof 🙂. My barrel length was 7 3/8" before I reduced to 6" for better balance. The extra meat of the .36 adds a lot of frontal weight. Please read my reply to the Old Ranger for more details and other mods. I tried 1/8 " grease cookies, felt wads dipped in lube and every other method under the sun, even softened lube between a cork wad and the ball. By far the best accuracy my Uberti's given since purchasing in 2013 is with dipped balls and 21 grains of Pyrodex P. I'd try real black powder but a special licence and storage facility is required and the the gun shops in my area don't stock it due to low local demand.
@@85waspnest Just got to reading this. That's the same thoughts I've had about my 36's in 2nd gen. About 1-32 twist. I even butchered a couple of cylinders trying to ream them to .375, 30 years ago with a $28 drill press. I then shot 380's, and it was even worse, especially from the chambers that the drill went "off center". Couldn't sell them, so I ordered couple replacement cylinders from Colt. A person could sure mess things up easier then without the internet. I plan to try the "dippy" thing this summer. Do you just use tweezers, or are you doing this somewhere in zero gravity and getting a perfect coating? How about cooling them, or freezing. Seems that would give extra coating, but then the loading lever end could get pretty messy? As you say, experimenting; lots of fun, and lots of work to do in Texas. O.R.
I've recovered balls that still had the lube on them..so I stopped using lube , just lube the Arbor now..dont get get flyers when I found the sweet spot for powder charge..plus now I dr
Best comments with OR actively participating! Like the best teacher that learns from the students while teaching them to learn and think on their feet. Whew! Where is my grammar teacher now!???! Hoho
Something of a consensus on the 1858remington forum, before it went down, was that humidity in the air at the time would have an effect on the rate of fouling buildup. I believe also that it was Elmer Keith who noted that if you blew down the bore after every six shots you'd keep the gun shooting accurately. The reason is that the moisture softens the fouling. Anyway, I use a lot of lube in my loads, including grease groove bullets and a lube cookie (card, lube pill, card), and that way you can shoot all day and not worry about fouling building up in the bore. I see zero utility in wasting chamber space with felt, when it cold be a pure lube pill instead. Chainfires are a total non issue if your chambers are in proper shape and your projectiles fit right, so I don't see any reason to mention them except to say that you'd better fix your cylinder or use better projectiles if you ever have one. I've fired these guns for decades now, having been through multiple 50 pound orders of lead, in addition to the factory round ball and conicals I've put down range, using all manner of loading methods, with and without wads, and never once had a chainfire.
Agree with first two paragraphs. Can also add (not that we can trust movies) that’s what Davy Crockett did with his flinter. Should mention that is a dangerous habit. I saw a fellow do that as a reflex. He though his rifle had fired, put his mouth to the barrel, but only the cap had fired, not the main charge. I was in your camp with many rounds, many years, and many empty tins of caps; no chain fires. So, reluctantly I have to take issue with thinking it won’t happen if the front (open end) of the cylinder is properly sealed, because I had two events within one week. I was using some DIY caps and believe I was sloppy in my manufacturing technique. Zero quality control on my part. Thanks again for your comment. O.R.
I only use wads with short charges to take up space when needed. I don't care about fouling that much and with my guns as long as I have the sprue away from the side of the cylinder on a good oversize ball chain fires don't seem to be a concern.
I use Vaseline for lube. works fantastic. NO wads or other filler. Havent had a chain fire in 35 years. I never use black powder any more since the new substitutes came out. I like shooting my gun....not standing around cleaning it. I use Goex and triple 7 It washes right off with warm water. It gives me good accuracy .
Oh I pray you are ok with a question. I’m just getting into BP. Have pcp airguns. Got bored with modern weapons. Blah blah. When you clean your pistol after the range… how much do you take down of the weapon? Can I just take the cylinder out and loading arm and such or do I need to really take it down? I have 30 grain equivalent pellets because I read they are easier to clean. Much like what was already said
I have a Pietta 1858 Remington and I have only shot .454 store bought Lead balls. I have not had a hard time ramming my .454 lead balls into the cylinders using the gun's loading lever.
Nice video ... I shoot two 1851 Navy Colt Pietta reissues. .36 cal. and I use 20 brains with just the ball, no lube. Accuracy is good at 30 yrds shooting off hand until about 25-30 rounds then the gun starts gunking up and the barrel fouls out causing spray patterns and inaccurate. I sometimes shoot lubed wads and tried filling the chamber ends but was time consuming so I opt for the lubed wads. With the lubed wads I get about 60 to 70 shots before fouling causes issue so it does make a difference lubed for me anyways with the 1851 Navy in .36 so I cant speak for anything else. I mainly use either Goex FFFg or Pyrodex P and haven't noticed much of a difference with regard to fouling. The Goex has better burn in my opinion. My experience is three years and shooting them most every weekend. We shoot every weekend anyway with the modern firearms but I shoot the black powder often. Again I enjoy your videos.
Thanks for your comment and added information. I’ll never shot much without some attempt at lubing. Started with Keith’s felt wad method, but couldn’t get groups without flyers. Used crisco around the outside edge of the ball when shooting competition which was better. Most modern shooters, and probably as originally used, don’t shoot enough in succession for fouling to be an issue. It’s also possible that they aren’t concerned, or can’t detect, flyers. So, was interested to hear your experience which pretty much duplicates mine. You may have seen the video of mine using the miniature grease gun to dispense lubricant, but if you can get 60+ with the wads, then that seems good enough. After that many for myself, there would be other issues anyway. Again, thanks for your comment. O.R.
I like seeing the Video even if I disagree with some of the approaches. In this case, the Pietta Manual (new, do not have an older one) recommends .454 balls. I have gone with the original loading they did and believe the band that is formed seals off the Powder on the bullet end and I don't believe chain fire occurs off the cone end (they are hard enough to fire at times with a cap going off and the powder too packed from my over pressure or so I believe). I do think you need to check that a band shows up (1/4 inch on my old ASP and the Piettan NMA). I am shooting some conical and checked to make sure that bullet also has a band in both. The old ASP does not shave lead but forms the band, those chambers are tapered. The Pietta shaves lead. Currently I am using .457 though I am going to try the .454. I am using lubed wads to see if it helps keep the guns cleaner. .451 would be where the chain fire can start as its too small and in that case wads and lubes are mandatory.
The .451 will shave lead in my Pietta,s. They have.466-.477 chambers As you correctly state, their chambers have no taper, so it shaves rather than compress. The issue can be if the shooter is casting them, and the sprue cutter cuts below the tangent line, which seems to be the case with Lee molds. If these are loaded with the cutoff on the chambers side, there is not a perfect seal. A chance for a KaBoom if no wad or lube. Lubed wads will help some, but not as much as a good lube that has the right viscosity. Your caps firing without igniting the main charge is puzzling. Thanks for your comments. O.R.
I agree with some other comments on here in that I think lube is the go if you want to shoot multiple cylinders during a day, hopefully at targets. Makes the shooting more enjoyable. Colts original advice didnt include lube but I figure they thought 6 shots was going to be it for the day one way or another. Given the firearms capacities of the day, 5 or 6 shots was a lot.
Yes, reloading from horseback, or in the heat of a battle or "shoot-out" wasn't the intent, practical, or often done. Not being there, that makes the most sense. Use today is in that way, much different. There is a book written around 1940 by Ned Roberts where he makes a comment that it is best to use "moist burning powder" so that "wiping" is not necessary. That sort of reenforces my thoughts that possibly some of the manufactured powder burned differently then that that of today. Think I read in some muzzleloading information that the charcoal used was different depending on what wood it came from. Possibly what is used today is more "pure", of different somehow. Just a thought. Thanks for the comment. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 now your on a subject dear to my heart lol, fast growing woods are better charcoal for our purposes than hardwoods according to the research I have done. Willow is a favourite, Im currently playing with grape vine. Apparently the British military spent a great deal of time and money researching this and they, I have heard, decided that Buckthorn Alder was the ultimate. Cant find an example of that species in my part of the world tho. I have definitely experienced "wet" and "dry" powder residues. Our locally made powder seems to be a bit wetter than say goex. Ned Roberts book is on my wish list :-)
@@35southkiwi16 Very interesting, then my memory is correct t that there were different woods that the charcoal was made from. Would be interesting to know what the GOEX used. Also, to what extent it was pure without containing some other elements or compounds. Robert's book is available, and not badly priced, unless it is a collector's ed. Usually $20-25, Ebay or Amazon. Lots on info in it's 300 pages. I especially enjoyed finding out about the "choke bored" rifles. Hope you enjoy it if you get a copy. O.R.
That was a surprising result, the mystery is what is causing the flyers? I note that on third group it was the first 3 shots that went wild, then the next dropped into one very tight group, I see the seated ball was at least 1/2" back from the end of the chamber, do you think that could be making a difference, although with the others going into such a very tight group I can hardly see that was causing a problem, but to get such tight groups with a fouled barrel after that many shots is amazing, was the fouling soft after that many shots? Chris B.
Hard as a rock. I have shot some groups using wads, in an attempt to see if they would work without flyers. So far, and that means so far, I get similar results with the wads as without anything, in that there seemed to be some that were tight were I expected them, and then what appears to by flyers. Actually this might be expected if the lube wad isn't really doing much. One thing it seemed to do for me was to cause some erratic shots, almost like squibs. I need to run some more, but I've been having fun with the lube accuracy. I maybe said that I am suspicious that maybe the powder in the past was somewhat different. In Ned Roberts book he claims that guns can shoot without wiping if the powder selected is moist burning. "Very interesting". O.R. P.S. Plan to repeat test, and you can bet, knowing the gremlins that live in the can of BP, that the results will be completely different.
@@oldranger3044 I think the hard fouling must cause a great deal of deformation, and therefore flyers, but the mystery is your flyers came early ,before the excellent group, I can well see that a lubed wad over the powder could cause erratic burn, as there is little chance of getting the same pressure on every chamber, and for that reason I do not put any contaminants under the bullet, but the lube coated ball looks a good idea, I always use a carton disc over my BPC loadings, that could be something to try, but we are loading a round ball down onto the powder, so do not have the flat base the go up against the wad, as you say, lots more work to do! Chris B.
@@453421abcdefg12345 True about the compression varying. The lube I used had the consistency of Crisco, so maybe pressure could force some out. I've often wondered about the burn not being the same because it first can compress the wad (maybe) and act somewhat like powder that is not compressed-even when we think it is. Yes, lots of fun stuff to work on. It might not have a lot to do as my brother would say with "the price of corn" but I'n not planning on spending much time making video's showing my shooting ability with one hand either. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 I noticed today, while driving a ball through the barrel of my .36 that had been loaded into the .38" chamber, (I was doing this to see if it completely filled the grooves), that the ball rotted slightly, enough to show light through the bore, if that were to happen when being fired, the ball would probably veer off to one side, have had high pressure gas bypassing the ball, another reason to have chambers the correct size! I wish I lived closer, we could get more work done on this! Chris B.
@@453421abcdefg12345 Hi Chris. That caused me to check my 44 Pietta 1860, which has chambers .446, bore .440. To be sure, I took a .454 with loading lever down the chamber and punched it back out, and yes, .446. Interesting how some ring was cut off, but some stayed on the ball, and there was a noticeable ridge where lead was pushed to the front. Anyway, then pushed it into the muzzle and looked against the light. It was not filled to the groves, just as I had seen with the 36's. I took a pretty good photo of it. Unless it bumps up, gas is going by on all sides. How it can be accurate is beyond me. But it works. A while back I tried on the 36's to use reamed chambers at .375 with a 380 to fill things up, but it didn't seem to shoot much, or any better. I don't think these things follow smokeless rules. Maybe they make their own on demand. When I saw the "damage" that was done to the 454 in putting it in the .446 chamber, I suspect maybe that is why I get good results with the 451, possibly better than the 454. O.R.
Back in the early 70's we were told to use filler in the cylinders to help keep the ball close to the opening of the cylinder. A common filler was bird seed. The big problem with it was how dirty and gritty it became after the revolver was fired. After shooting 2 or 3 full cylinders, the gun would seize up from the crud. It was also difficult to pull the cylinder for cleaning, after a few loadings. It made shooting the revolver a not so pleasant event.
That’s interesting. I also got that programming somewhere. Believe it was for a couple of reasons. Ball would be closer to the forcing cone which would increase accuracy. The other was that target shooters used a reduced load to make the gun more “manageable “, and needed filler so the powder would get compressed, and possibly again more accurate. I remember a comment that after a couple cylinders the barrel looked like someone had fried a chicken in it. I haven’t been using it much lately (corn meal) unless I am shooting a real wimp load. Still seem to be getting good accuracy and not fighting with my wife over corn starch. O.R.
My opinion on question #1 is yes. If we’re talking Pietta, if you pay over $350, then you’re probably just getting a fancier looking piece. Exception would be their shooters model ($900+) or one with target sights. If it’s a Uberti, then it’s going to be $50-100 more than Pietta. There are plenty of videos that compare guns from the two companies. Should be from $300-375 for steel frame Piettas, depending on models. About $50 less for brass frames. At these prices for new, I would be caution new shooters about buying used. Question 2, is easy, no, they don’t come with everything, at least I’ve never seen it. I’m sure sometimes at at a gun shop or wherever they might include extras, but there are no factory complete kits that I know of. Not throwing water on the 🔥, but compared to modern cartridge guns, the black powder shooting can involve “extra stuff “, including cleaning and dissembling, that is easily overlooked. It’s a different world than modern firearms, and probably that’s one reason it’s popular with some shooters. Hope this helps. O.R.
When I started blackpowder revolver (many years ago) I bought a Centaur made Colt 1861. (Centaur is Belgium but made on original Colt machinery) At that time I read an article: a youg guy became German champion. Everybody was asking what lube, which wad etc. He said I use none... A standard match in the Netherlands is 13 shots, of which the best 10 count. So no lube or wads needed I think. (I did it any way)
That’s interesting data. I have tried the “nothing” plan. It wasn’t bad for the first cylinder. If I remember correctly the cylinder became progressively more difficult to turn. Started to get flyers and group size opened up. Cleaning was much more difficult due to the fouling build up. So, there seems to be a contradiction here, and it’s not the first time the loading with nothing has been mentioned in comments. It wouldn’t hurt me to go through this a second time. Have folks that back the “nothing “ approach any knowledge about shooting black powder cartridges like the 45/70, or at least read publications like those by Paul Matthews? Are they aware of the “grease cookie”, and how important it is to accuracy and why. Also the information by Ned Roberts he talks about how in the 1800’s the importance of “moist burning black powder”? Probably not. What if (just a theory) modern commercial black powder ain’t the same when it comes to fouling? This could explain why lube is now used in the attempt to keep fouling soft so that things work better. There’s also the possibility that tests and experience I have are incorrect. There are many things we don’t know, like the powder the young German was using. I believe this lube, or no lube subject could use more study. Thanks again for your comment and information. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 I don't know his powder also, most use swiss for matches. I do know my sharps 45-70 reacts to "cheap" blackpowder. I lube my cast bullets with homemade lube. Mix of Peanut oil, fat for french fries and beeswax. With cheap powder (non Swiss) three round go into the 10 ring at hundred meter distance but then they start to drop hard. Lots of hard powder residue in the barrel, no lead fouling however. Now I wipe with a moist patch after three shots. With Swiss powder 120 $ a kilo no problems.
@@pietkoster1935 Thanks, that’s very interesting. I have some Swiss, but have never tried it without lube. A comparison of it with GOEX would make an interesting test. Also, I have a 15 lb can of what was called “orange rifle powder” that was never opened and I believe was from the late 1800’s. Maybe its time to check out some theories. O.R.
If im doing a lot of shooting in a day I'll do an over powder wad (either felt or even a 3d printed plastic disc of the right diameter), put a small dab of beeswax-olive oil grease over that, then ram in a ball. Keeps everything soft. Or i sometimes will just run paper cartridges dipped in the same lube mix.
I was just thinking of making some cartridges and brushing them lightly with Vaseline but at time of loading I don't want greasy fingers lolol gloves right
Doesn't the Pietta manual suggest using .454 round ball for their 1858 Remington? Why are you using .451 lead balls in your testing? I have heard some say the most important thing that prevents a chainfire jump across the cylinder openings is getting a uniform circle of lead cut off the ball after you ram it home.
Could be the chambers of the older guns don't have much of a bevel to start the ball, and the 451 pushes down hard enough so that another three thousands would just make that more difficult. And yes, the more lead shaved off, the better seal, and possibly better grip to the rifling. There will probably be more distortion of the ball however. I use plenty of lube, and try to be sure that the edges of the ball are sealed against the flash by this lube. So, I guess I use the 451 because it has been working for me, and I haven't seen better accuracy yet with the 454. Chambers on the Pietta are about .446, so I am shaving lead, exception would be if thee is a flat spot where the ball was cut off from the mold, and that happens to end up on the side, then my lube better do part of it's job. Thanks for the comment. O.R.
I shoot a brass frame sheriff 44 that's been snub nosed 30 grain pyrodex pellets .454 balls no lube never have any problems my velocities are in the low 900s
I use a .457 ball and a Triple Seven 25gn charge. I put ball directly on the powder and then grease the edges of the top of the ball in the cylinder. It's shooting ball on ball at 20 yds with my 1858 New Army Pietta.
Sounds like a happy day. I’ve never shot 777 in handguns that I can remember. Don’t know if it was made when I first started, but I’ve heard it works well. I also used to lube just around the edges in the 80’s and would get occasional flyers in the 36 calibers. Was using GOEX and I think maybe it wasn’t enough lube, because doing better now using more. Also it was pure crisco. Thanks for your comment. O.R.
Bore Butter works fine, but I would go through probably a tube per day, and shooting sometimes 4-5 days a week - well, I felt I wanted something less costly. Have not used 3 an 1, mostly because of those that claim petroleum based products don’t go well with black powder shooting. Thanks for sharing this info. O.R.
Fascinating. I imagine for competition or a day of target shooting one ought to use lube and spray down with moose milk between stages and quick cleaning when time allows. However, I have always been skeptical that the working man in the old west would walk around all day or all week with melted lube on the cylinder in hot weather. It would seem to be a real mess. It would be interesting to research the extent literature and manufactures instructions from the time period.
I have heard that original instructions were pretty much to load this way. No doubt they were not all done this way, but our reasons today are different for shooting the guns, with different techniques. Old information is hard to come by, just like finding information on how fires were started. Everyone did it so there probably wasn't a feeling that it should be documented. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 Yep, done some extensive research into this and concluded that in wartime paper cartridges were mainly used as issued, some were dipped in lube, some not. Accuracy probably didn't suffer as the men weren't the best revolver shots and they only shot 6 before switching to another weapon. No reloads in combat unless in a defensive position probably. Elmer Keith mentions some preferring the roundball over the conical for deadlyness. Colts and even Cooper revolver loading instructions never mentioned lube, it probably was not used much. However, dripping molten candle wax around the caps and loaded chambers was done to waterproof the loads. This probably aided in a little lubrication, but that was a secondary cause.
Yup, that’s why rifles were made with patch boxes. Sure, can use saliva in a pinch, it will help sliding down the barrel, but won’t do much to keep fouling soft once it dries. O.R.
According to what I’ve read, many of the Southern Mountain “poor boy “ rifles had a “grease hole” in the stock. Less work and metal for the builder. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 Your 2 videos PROVED that grease is a necessity for blackpowder shooting. The improved cleanup alone is worth it, but just a chance that it improved accuracy really clenches the deal. Minus at least 2 flyers per target, that’s major.
Groundhog. Can google it. Weight about 10 lbs or 4-5 Kg. Not dangerous (unless provoked to protect themselves). Eat mostly grass and vegetables, especially found of whatever grows in the garden, exception is potatoes. O.R.
I love my new army 44 black powder and I always place a dab of grease over the ball after it’s pressed down and loaded. Not much just a tad to keep the following soft. don’t think I’ll ever let this gun go. It will be passed down to my son.
@@wizbang16 I also used it in the 80’s, but too sparse because I thought its extra weight would affect things. Actually it would have, but for the better, because there needs to be enough to keep the fouling soft. I did a recent test of it against my mixture and it did well, but without the wax, it had a loose “ball movement” in the hot weather. Other than that, it worked fine. O.R.
I shot like 100 times without any lub... And i got chainfire only one time. And well... I just lost a bullet and some powder. Nothing more. Not a big deal really
1858s are the very worst for fouling.. sure as far as cap jams it's pretty good but after the first cylinder it's so fouled it doesn't want to fire another cylinder or it's very hard. It gets too gunked up you can't even pull out the cylinder rod..
"Does size matter?" "To lube or not to lube" I subbed just for the clever use of the clickbait titled videos". great channel my man
Thanks for the sub and comment. Every now and then my brain clicks on something. Will try to keep things that I think might have interest or value. While on that page, would you be interested in my thoughts about why I feel the 51 navy in the Cody Museum in Wyoming actually belonged to Wild Bill Hickok?
the original Colt instructions were to load this way. But remember it was 6 shots and either go home and clean and reload, or you next of kin took the gun home and cleaned and reloaded. If you needed more than six shots you would pull out a second revolver.
Yup, and a chain fire was probably only a minor thing, if it happened, not much to worry about compared to what was going on. O.R.
Well that's got me thinking. I'll check the second video later.
I've been experimenting with different powder loads, cast & swaged round ball, Lee and Eras Gone cast conicals, lubed felt wads, fibre wads, lube over the projectile, between the wad & projectile and nothing at all in my .36 Uberti Remington New Model Navy. I found most of these either inaccurate and/or messy. The final experiment proved the most successful = 21 grains of Pyrodex P (I can't source real BP) under Lee .380 (not .375) cast round balls dipped in a molten 50/50 mix of Beeswax and Lamb Tallow. Allow to set with the flat sprue resting on greaseproof paper. This doesn't blast lube all over the club range dividing walls, is quick and easy to load and gives the best accuracy I've ever achieved with this revolver. What's more, the bore fouling remained soft even after 48 continuous shots without wiping.
You've been busy. I never thought of dipping the round balls, but that would seem to be an excellent idea to get some lube on the powder side without using something like a grease cookie.
Also, for quite awhile Ive been suspicious that the 36 calibers with the 1-30 twist, my Pietta is 1-30, and I believe someone said Uterti is also, which would go against their 51's and 61's, have issues as far as stability if the ball doesn't take the twist.. Don't want to be quoted on this, yet. One in 30 is the same as their 44's and shouldn't smaller need faster?? All I used to shoot was the 36's, and always seemed to have flyer problems. Was amazed when I started with the 44's that seemed not to be the issue.
That you could shoot that many without cleaning tells us that it is working and something I would like to try. I would guess that setting them the way you did will add extra lube where it is needed. Thanks. O.R.
That sounds great, I'm going to try that. The greaseproof paper is just wax paper? And your barrel length is 7 1/2"? I use grease cookies mainly (about 1/8" thick) and when I'm done shooting there are always two vertical black lines or BP crud and lube alongside the range walls... I usually load 21 grains too, with a .380 RB in my 2nd Gen Colt Navy.
@@oldranger3044 My .36 Uberti has a 1 in 32 inch twist rate and a 7 3/8" barrel....or it HAD, before I shortened it to 6" for better balance and dovetailed for a .5" tall Skinner front sight filed to fine tune the aim and striking point. Other mods - slightly chamfering the chamber mouths to prevent lead shaving off, checking the cylinder - barrel alignment and polishing the forcing cone as it was rough.
I bought the revolver new in 2013 and was disappointed with accuracy for a long time, despite trying every tip and trick in the book. There were times I came close to selling or trading before relenting until frustration calmed down. One day last year I was dipping cast .45/70 bullets in the pan when the idea about dipping .36 balls sprung to mind. The theory is the powder melts the lube at the back which follows the ball down the bore gliding on lube at the front while leaving a film for the next shot and lubing the cylinder pin. As you'll know, Remington cylinder pins soon foul making the pin difficult to remove. My remedy is to half withdraw the pin and add a few drops of vegetable oil every 12 or 18 shots. One observation when testing the dipped bullets is the first cylinder load aren't as accurate. I use these as fouling shots prior to getting down to business. Certainly give it a try, there's no guarantee it will work with your Piettas and .45s. Whatever, experimenting is fun in itself.
@@Prowbar Yes, wax paper, I'm in the UK, we call it greaseproof 🙂. My barrel length was 7 3/8" before I reduced to 6" for better balance. The extra meat of the .36 adds a lot of frontal weight. Please read my reply to the Old Ranger for more details and other mods.
I tried 1/8 " grease cookies, felt wads dipped in lube and every other method under the sun, even softened lube between a cork wad and the ball. By far the best accuracy my Uberti's given since purchasing in 2013 is with dipped balls and 21 grains of Pyrodex P. I'd try real black powder but a special licence and storage facility is required and the the gun shops in my area don't stock it due to low local demand.
@@85waspnest Just got to reading this. That's the same thoughts I've had about my 36's in 2nd gen. About 1-32 twist. I even butchered a couple of cylinders trying to ream them to .375, 30 years ago with a $28 drill press. I then shot 380's, and it was even worse, especially from the chambers that the drill went "off center". Couldn't sell them, so I ordered couple replacement cylinders from Colt. A person could sure mess things up easier then without the internet.
I plan to try the "dippy" thing this summer. Do you just use tweezers, or are you doing this somewhere in zero gravity and getting a perfect coating? How about cooling them, or freezing. Seems that would give extra coating, but then the loading lever end could get pretty messy? As you say, experimenting; lots of fun, and lots of work to do in Texas. O.R.
I've recovered balls that still had the lube on them..so I stopped using lube , just lube the Arbor now..dont get get flyers when I found the sweet spot for powder charge..plus now I dr
Best comments with OR actively participating! Like the best teacher that learns from the students while teaching them to learn and think on their feet. Whew! Where is my grammar teacher now!???! Hoho
Something of a consensus on the 1858remington forum, before it went down, was that humidity in the air at the time would have an effect on the rate of fouling buildup. I believe also that it was Elmer Keith who noted that if you blew down the bore after every six shots you'd keep the gun shooting accurately. The reason is that the moisture softens the fouling.
Anyway, I use a lot of lube in my loads, including grease groove bullets and a lube cookie (card, lube pill, card), and that way you can shoot all day and not worry about fouling building up in the bore. I see zero utility in wasting chamber space with felt, when it cold be a pure lube pill instead.
Chainfires are a total non issue if your chambers are in proper shape and your projectiles fit right, so I don't see any reason to mention them except to say that you'd better fix your cylinder or use better projectiles if you ever have one. I've fired these guns for decades now, having been through multiple 50 pound orders of lead, in addition to the factory round ball and conicals I've put down range, using all manner of loading methods, with and without wads, and never once had a chainfire.
Agree with first two paragraphs. Can also add (not that we can trust movies) that’s what Davy Crockett did with his flinter. Should mention that is a dangerous habit. I saw a fellow do that as a reflex. He though his rifle had fired, put his mouth to the barrel, but only the cap had fired, not the main charge.
I was in your camp with many rounds, many years, and many empty tins of caps; no chain fires. So, reluctantly I have to take issue with thinking it won’t happen if the front (open end) of the cylinder is properly sealed, because I had two events within one week. I was using some DIY caps and believe I was sloppy in my manufacturing technique. Zero quality control on my part. Thanks again for your comment. O.R.
I only use wads with short charges to take up space when needed. I don't care about fouling that much and with my guns as long as I have the sprue away from the side of the cylinder on a good oversize ball chain fires don't seem to be a concern.
Excellent video Sir!
Thanks, and glad you enjoyed it. O.R.
I use Vaseline for lube. works fantastic. NO wads or other filler. Havent had a chain fire in 35 years. I never use black powder any more since the new substitutes came out. I like shooting my gun....not standing around cleaning it. I use Goex and triple 7
It washes right off with warm water. It gives me good accuracy .
Oh I pray you are ok with a question.
I’m just getting into BP. Have pcp airguns. Got bored with modern weapons.
Blah blah. When you clean your pistol after the range… how much do you take down of the weapon?
Can I just take the cylinder out and loading arm and such or do I need to really take it down? I have 30 grain equivalent pellets because I read they are easier to clean. Much like what was already said
I have a Pietta 1858 Remington and I have only shot .454 store bought Lead balls.
I have not had a hard time ramming my .454 lead balls into the cylinders using the
gun's loading lever.
Sounds like it is working for you, and no need to change what works. O.R.
That old army is a keeper 👍🏼
Chain fire only happens when loose primers are backed off the nipples during firing . Balls seal the chambers an lube helps with fouling of barrel.
Nice video ... I shoot two 1851 Navy Colt Pietta reissues. .36 cal. and I use 20 brains with just the ball, no lube. Accuracy is good at 30 yrds shooting off hand until about 25-30 rounds then the gun starts gunking up and the barrel fouls out causing spray patterns and inaccurate.
I sometimes shoot lubed wads and tried filling the chamber ends but was time consuming so I opt for the lubed wads. With the lubed wads I get about 60 to 70 shots before fouling causes issue so it does make a difference lubed for me anyways with the 1851 Navy in .36 so I cant speak for anything else.
I mainly use either Goex FFFg or Pyrodex P and haven't noticed much of a difference with regard to fouling. The Goex has better burn in my opinion.
My experience is three years and shooting them most every weekend. We shoot every weekend anyway with the modern firearms but I shoot the black powder often.
Again I enjoy your videos.
Thanks for your comment and added information. I’ll never shot much without some attempt at lubing. Started with Keith’s felt wad method, but couldn’t get groups without flyers. Used crisco around the outside edge of the ball when shooting competition which was better. Most modern shooters, and probably as originally used, don’t shoot enough in succession for fouling to be an issue. It’s also possible that they aren’t concerned, or can’t detect, flyers. So, was interested to hear your experience which pretty much duplicates mine.
You may have seen the video of mine using the miniature grease gun to dispense lubricant, but if you can get 60+ with the wads, then that seems good enough. After that many for myself, there would be other issues anyway. Again, thanks for your comment. O.R.
I like seeing the Video even if I disagree with some of the approaches. In this case, the Pietta Manual (new, do not have an older one) recommends .454 balls. I have gone with the original loading they did and believe the band that is formed seals off the Powder on the bullet end and I don't believe chain fire occurs off the cone end (they are hard enough to fire at times with a cap going off and the powder too packed from my over pressure or so I believe). I do think you need to check that a band shows up (1/4 inch on my old ASP and the Piettan NMA). I am shooting some conical and checked to make sure that bullet also has a band in both. The old ASP does not shave lead but forms the band, those chambers are tapered. The Pietta shaves lead. Currently I am using .457 though I am going to try the .454. I am using lubed wads to see if it helps keep the guns cleaner. .451 would be where the chain fire can start as its too small and in that case wads and lubes are mandatory.
The .451 will shave lead in my Pietta,s. They have.466-.477 chambers As you correctly state, their chambers have no taper, so it shaves rather than compress. The issue can be if the shooter is casting them, and the sprue cutter cuts below the tangent line, which seems to be the case with Lee molds. If these are loaded with the cutoff on the chambers side, there is not a perfect seal. A chance for a KaBoom if no wad or lube. Lubed wads will help some, but not as much as a good lube that has the right viscosity. Your caps firing without igniting the main charge is puzzling. Thanks for your comments. O.R.
The process is relevant to the conclusion. There be no jumping forward for me
Thank you for sharing.
I use powder coated bullets. No leading after 50 shots. Very happy with the results
I agree with some other comments on here in that I think lube is the go if you want to shoot multiple cylinders during a day, hopefully at targets. Makes the shooting more enjoyable. Colts original advice didnt include lube but I figure they thought 6 shots was going to be it for the day one way or another. Given the firearms capacities of the day, 5 or 6 shots was a lot.
Yes, reloading from horseback, or in the heat of a battle or "shoot-out" wasn't the intent, practical, or often done. Not being there, that makes the most sense. Use today is in that way, much different.
There is a book written around 1940 by Ned Roberts where he makes a comment that it is best to use "moist burning powder" so that "wiping" is not necessary. That sort of reenforces my thoughts that possibly some of the manufactured powder burned differently then that that of today. Think I read in some muzzleloading information that the charcoal used was different depending on what wood it came from. Possibly what is used today is more "pure", of different somehow. Just a thought. Thanks for the comment. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 now your on a subject dear to my heart lol, fast growing woods are better charcoal for our purposes than hardwoods according to the research I have done. Willow is a favourite, Im currently playing with grape vine. Apparently the British military spent a great deal of time and money researching this and they, I have heard, decided that Buckthorn Alder was the ultimate. Cant find an example of that species in my part of the world tho. I have definitely experienced "wet" and "dry" powder residues. Our locally made powder seems to be a bit wetter than say goex. Ned Roberts book is on my wish list :-)
@@35southkiwi16 Very interesting, then my memory is correct t that there were different woods that the charcoal was made from. Would be interesting to know what the GOEX used. Also, to what extent it was pure without containing some other elements or compounds.
Robert's book is available, and not badly priced, unless it is a collector's ed. Usually $20-25, Ebay or Amazon. Lots on info in it's 300 pages. I especially enjoyed finding out about the "choke bored" rifles. Hope you enjoy it if you get a copy. O.R.
That was a surprising result, the mystery is what is causing the flyers? I note that on third group it was the first 3 shots that went wild, then the next dropped into one very tight group, I see the seated ball was at least 1/2" back from the end of the chamber, do you think that could be making a difference, although with the others going into such a very tight group I can hardly see that was causing a problem, but to get such tight groups with a fouled barrel after that many shots is amazing, was the fouling soft after that many shots? Chris B.
Hard as a rock. I have shot some groups using wads, in an attempt to see if they would work without flyers. So far, and that means so far, I get similar results with the wads as without anything, in that there seemed to be some that were tight were I expected them, and then what appears to by flyers. Actually this might be expected if the lube wad isn't really doing much. One thing it seemed to do for me was to cause some erratic shots, almost like squibs. I need to run some more, but I've been having fun with the lube accuracy. I maybe said that I am suspicious that maybe the powder in the past was somewhat different. In Ned Roberts book he claims that guns can shoot without wiping if the powder selected is moist burning. "Very interesting". O.R.
P.S. Plan to repeat test, and you can bet, knowing the gremlins that live in the can of BP, that the results will be completely different.
@@oldranger3044 I think the hard fouling must cause a great deal of deformation, and therefore flyers, but the mystery is your flyers came early ,before the excellent group, I can well see that a lubed wad over the powder could cause erratic burn, as there is little chance of getting the same pressure on every chamber, and for that reason I do not put any contaminants under the bullet, but the lube coated ball looks a good idea, I always use a carton disc over my BPC loadings, that could be something to try, but we are loading a round ball down onto the powder, so do not have the flat base the go up against the wad, as you say, lots more work to do! Chris B.
@@453421abcdefg12345 True about the compression varying. The lube I used had the consistency of Crisco, so maybe pressure could force some out. I've often wondered about the burn not being the same because it first can compress the wad (maybe) and act somewhat like powder that is not compressed-even when we think it is. Yes, lots of fun stuff to work on. It might not have a lot to do as my brother would say with "the price of corn" but I'n not planning on spending much time making video's showing my shooting ability with one hand either. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 I noticed today, while driving a ball through the barrel of my .36 that had been loaded into the .38" chamber, (I was doing this to see if it completely filled the grooves), that the ball rotted slightly, enough to show light through the bore, if that were to happen when being fired, the ball would probably veer off to one side, have had high pressure gas bypassing the ball, another reason to have chambers the correct size! I wish I lived closer, we could get more work done on this! Chris B.
@@453421abcdefg12345 Hi Chris. That caused me to check my 44 Pietta 1860, which has chambers .446, bore .440. To be sure, I took a .454 with loading lever down the chamber and punched it back out, and yes, .446. Interesting how some ring was cut off, but some stayed on the ball, and there was a noticeable ridge where lead was pushed to the front. Anyway, then pushed it into the muzzle and looked against the light. It was not filled to the groves, just as I had seen with the 36's. I took a pretty good photo of it. Unless it bumps up, gas is going by on all sides. How it can be accurate is beyond me. But it works. A while back I tried on the 36's to use reamed chambers at .375 with a 380 to fill things up, but it didn't seem to shoot much, or any better. I don't think these things follow smokeless rules. Maybe they make their own on demand.
When I saw the "damage" that was done to the 454 in putting it in the .446 chamber, I suspect maybe that is why I get good results with the 451, possibly better than the 454. O.R.
Back in the early 70's we were told to use filler in the cylinders to help keep the ball close to the opening of the cylinder.
A common filler was bird seed. The big problem with it was how dirty and gritty it became after the revolver was fired.
After shooting 2 or 3 full cylinders, the gun would seize up from the crud. It was also difficult to pull the cylinder for cleaning, after a few loadings. It made shooting the revolver a not so pleasant event.
That’s interesting. I also got that programming somewhere. Believe it was for a couple of reasons. Ball would be closer to the forcing cone which would increase accuracy. The other was that target shooters used a reduced load to make the gun more “manageable “, and needed filler so the powder would get compressed, and possibly again more accurate. I remember a comment that after a couple cylinders the barrel looked like someone had fried a chicken in it. I haven’t been using it much lately (corn meal) unless I am shooting a real wimp load. Still seem to be getting good accuracy and not fighting with my wife over corn starch. O.R.
Is there anything in the $300.00 price range worth buying and would it come with everything or is powder,caps and balls always separate?
My opinion on question #1 is yes. If we’re talking Pietta, if you pay over $350, then you’re probably just getting a fancier looking piece. Exception would be their shooters model ($900+) or one with target sights. If it’s a Uberti, then it’s going to be $50-100 more than Pietta. There are plenty of videos that compare guns from the two companies. Should be from $300-375 for steel frame Piettas, depending on models. About $50 less for brass frames. At these prices for new, I would be caution new shooters about buying used.
Question 2, is easy, no, they don’t come with everything, at least I’ve never seen it. I’m sure sometimes at at a gun shop or wherever they might include extras, but there are no factory complete kits that I know of.
Not throwing water on the 🔥, but compared to modern cartridge guns, the black powder shooting can involve “extra stuff “, including cleaning and dissembling, that is easily overlooked. It’s a different world than modern firearms, and probably that’s one reason it’s popular with some shooters. Hope this helps. O.R.
You probably know by now. After you shoot black powder the soot in the barrel clogs
the rifling. When you get a lot of flyers. Got to clean the bore
Just wondering if you use wads, lube, or nothing? O.R.
When I started blackpowder revolver (many years ago) I bought a Centaur made Colt 1861. (Centaur is Belgium but made on original Colt machinery) At that time I read an article: a youg guy became German champion. Everybody was asking what lube, which wad etc. He said I use none... A standard match in the Netherlands is 13 shots, of which the best 10 count. So no lube or wads needed I think. (I did it any way)
That’s interesting data. I have tried the “nothing” plan. It wasn’t bad for the first cylinder. If I remember correctly the cylinder became progressively more difficult to turn. Started to get flyers and group size opened up. Cleaning was much more difficult due to the fouling build up. So, there seems to be a contradiction here, and it’s not the first time the loading with nothing has been mentioned in comments. It wouldn’t hurt me to go through this a second time. Have folks that back the “nothing “ approach any knowledge about shooting black powder cartridges like the 45/70, or at least read publications like those by Paul Matthews? Are they aware of the “grease cookie”, and how important it is to accuracy and why. Also the information by Ned Roberts he talks about how in the 1800’s the importance of “moist burning black powder”? Probably not. What if (just a theory) modern commercial black powder ain’t the same when it comes to fouling? This could explain why lube is now used in the attempt to keep fouling soft so that things work better. There’s also the possibility that tests and experience I have are incorrect. There are many things we don’t know, like the powder the young German was using. I believe this lube, or no lube subject could use more study. Thanks again for your comment and information. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 I don't know his powder also, most use swiss for matches. I do know my sharps 45-70 reacts to "cheap" blackpowder. I lube my cast bullets with homemade lube. Mix of Peanut oil, fat for french fries and beeswax. With cheap powder (non Swiss) three round go into the 10 ring at hundred meter distance but then they start to drop hard. Lots of hard powder residue in the barrel, no lead fouling however. Now I wipe with a moist patch after three shots. With Swiss powder 120 $ a kilo no problems.
@@pietkoster1935 Thanks, that’s very interesting. I have some Swiss, but have never tried it without lube. A comparison of it with GOEX would make an interesting test. Also, I have a 15 lb can of what was called “orange rifle powder” that was never opened and I believe was from the late 1800’s. Maybe its time to check out some theories. O.R.
If im doing a lot of shooting in a day I'll do an over powder wad (either felt or even a 3d printed plastic disc of the right diameter), put a small dab of beeswax-olive oil grease over that, then ram in a ball. Keeps everything soft.
Or i sometimes will just run paper cartridges dipped in the same lube mix.
I was just thinking of making some cartridges and brushing them lightly with Vaseline but at time of loading I don't want greasy fingers lolol gloves right
Doesn't the Pietta manual suggest using .454 round ball for their 1858 Remington?
Why are you using .451 lead balls in your testing?
I have heard some say the most important thing that prevents a chainfire jump across
the cylinder openings is getting a uniform circle of lead cut off the ball after you ram it home.
Could be the chambers of the older guns don't have much of a bevel to start the ball, and the 451 pushes down hard enough so that another three thousands would just make that more difficult. And yes, the more lead shaved off, the better seal, and possibly better grip to the rifling. There will probably be more distortion of the ball however. I use plenty of lube, and try to be sure that the edges of the ball are sealed against the flash by this lube. So, I guess I use the 451 because it has been working for me, and I haven't seen better accuracy yet with the 454. Chambers on the Pietta are about .446, so I am shaving lead, exception would be if thee is a flat spot where the ball was cut off from the mold, and that happens to end up on the side, then my lube better do part of it's job. Thanks for the comment. O.R.
I use and have been using .451 , it leaves a ring. Never had chain fire but I do put some lube on outside of ball after seated.
Use corn meal over your powder charge . An old gundealer started me using it . ain't blowed up yet.
Never had a chain fire, never used lube. No need for it.
I agree been shooting black powder for 10 years no lube no problems
@@SouthernAppalachian.44 amen
I shoot a brass frame sheriff 44 that's been snub nosed 30 grain pyrodex pellets .454 balls no lube never have any problems my velocities are in the low 900s
I use a .457 ball and a Triple Seven 25gn charge. I put ball directly on the powder and then grease the edges of the top of the ball in the cylinder. It's shooting ball on ball at 20 yds with my 1858 New Army Pietta.
Sounds like a happy day. I’ve never shot 777 in handguns that I can remember. Don’t know if it was made when I first started, but I’ve heard it works well. I also used to lube just around the edges in the 80’s and would get occasional flyers in the 36 calibers. Was using GOEX and I think maybe it wasn’t enough lube, because doing better now using more. Also it was pure crisco. Thanks for your comment. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 love your vids man. Keep them up.
@@Adam-upnorth Thanks Adam, and also for your loading data. Keep safe. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 you are very welcome. Thank you and same to you. Stay safe and shoot straight.
I use Bore Butter and 3-in-! oil, generously.
Bore Butter works fine, but I would go through probably a tube per day, and shooting sometimes 4-5 days a week - well, I felt I wanted something less costly. Have not used 3 an 1, mostly because of those that claim petroleum based products don’t go well with black powder shooting. Thanks for sharing this info. O.R.
Fascinating. I imagine for competition or a day of target shooting one ought to use lube and spray down with moose milk between stages and quick cleaning when time allows. However, I have always been skeptical that the working man in the old west would walk around all day or all week with melted lube on the cylinder in hot weather. It would seem to be a real mess. It would be interesting to research the extent literature and manufactures instructions from the time period.
I have heard that original instructions were pretty much to load this way. No doubt they were not all done this way, but our reasons today are different for shooting the guns, with different techniques. Old information is hard to come by, just like finding information on how fires were started. Everyone did it so there probably wasn't a feeling that it should be documented. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 Yep, range work or hunting are a whole different thing than EDC.
@@oldranger3044 Yep, done some extensive research into this and concluded that in wartime paper cartridges were mainly used as issued, some were dipped in lube, some not. Accuracy probably didn't suffer as the men weren't the best revolver shots and they only shot 6 before switching to another weapon. No reloads in combat unless in a defensive position probably. Elmer Keith mentions some preferring the roundball over the conical for deadlyness. Colts and even Cooper revolver loading instructions never mentioned lube, it probably was not used much. However, dripping molten candle wax around the caps and loaded chambers was done to waterproof the loads. This probably aided in a little lubrication, but that was a secondary cause.
Now you know, folks. Lube that cylinder end. Lube those rifle patches too. It’s not a wasted motion or resources.
Yup, that’s why rifles were made with patch boxes. Sure, can use saliva in a pinch, it will help sliding down the barrel, but won’t do much to keep fouling soft once it dries. O.R.
According to what I’ve read, many of the Southern Mountain “poor boy “ rifles had a “grease hole” in the stock. Less work and metal for the builder. O.R.
@@oldranger3044 Your 2 videos PROVED that grease is a necessity for blackpowder shooting. The improved cleanup alone is worth it, but just a chance that it improved accuracy really clenches the deal. Minus at least 2 flyers per target, that’s major.
wHATS THAT ANIMAL?
Groundhog. Can google it. Weight about 10 lbs or 4-5 Kg. Not dangerous (unless provoked to protect themselves). Eat mostly grass and vegetables, especially found of whatever grows in the garden, exception is potatoes. O.R.
I don't find your presentation the least bit of a bore.....
I love my new army 44 black powder and I always place a dab of grease over the ball after it’s pressed down and loaded. Not much just a tad to keep the following soft. don’t think I’ll ever let this gun go. It will be passed down to my son.
Ive used Criso for years. Easier cleaning in my opinion.
@@wizbang16 I also used it in the 80’s, but too sparse because I thought its extra weight would affect things. Actually it would have, but for the better, because there needs to be enough to keep the fouling soft. I did a recent test of it against my mixture and it did well, but without the wax, it had a loose “ball movement” in the hot weather. Other than that, it worked fine. O.R.
I shot like 100 times without any lub...
And i got chainfire only one time. And well... I just lost a bullet and some powder. Nothing more.
Not a big deal really
1858s are the very worst for fouling.. sure as far as cap jams it's pretty good but after the first cylinder it's so fouled it doesn't want to fire another cylinder or it's very hard. It gets too gunked up you can't even pull out the cylinder rod..
.451 is to small!
Lube for me I think , we will see 👍
Clint would out shoot you. Bench rest it mine is a tack driver target version
You babble too much.