Thanks for watching everyone! This was a fun format that I'll probably do at least a couple more times at some point, let me know what you thought of it as well as what your list looks like! Correction: Ryu's change to special cancelling only applies to aerials, which actually does make his projectile buffs his most significant change. -Main channel: ruclips.net/user/mockrocktv -Twitter: twitter.com/MrMockRock -Twitch: www.twitch.tv/mockrocktwitch -Patreon: www.patreon.com/mockrock -Teespring: teespring.com/stores/mockrock -TimeBolt affiliate link (excellent software I use to speed up editing on my videos, use code "MOCKROCK" for a discount): mockrock--timebolt.thrivecart.com/order-page/
IMO, Pokémon Trainer's biggest change isn't JUST faster swapping. It's actually a 2-way-tie between faster switching and Pokémon no longer getting tired from prolonged usage.
@@WhiteKnuckleRide512 I legitimately think the opposite on what made him interesting. I love that he is branching out his content if he is tired of constantly making Smash videos. Plus I never thought he was cringe.
I actually thought the "meteor of death" was kinda funny, I think stuff like that is fine to have every once in a while just don't do it all the time, then it will get cringe
Your old delivery sounds like you're a morning dj doing ad reads and the sponsor asked you to "punch up your energy" between every take. Needless to say, the progress you've made since then in terms of sounding natural is inspiring.
Just in general i think pit is the most improved in ssbu, he and dark pit went from a super generic character to a character with a pretty amazing advantage state, orbitars is probably *the* best reflector move in the game thanks to it functioning similar to a shield, uppercut/electroshock are great kill moves and yeah they're still shite but pit's airells got so much better, i mean sour dair combos arenuts
@@honathan2135 They are stuck in shieldstun of the attack that lands and Pit is +4 at worst from the move, which gives enough time to buffer DSmash. I have buffered Electrpshock out of a Smash Attack breaking my shield so you can be like +22, it's really insane.
It’s kind of weird how a few years ago your voice was more upbeat and yes, cringy, but more recently you’ve taken a more calm approach. It really does coincide with how analytical and in depth your videos have become Edit: I still smile at the “Kirby the Pink Beyblade or KIRBY, METEOR OF DEATH!!!” It’s funny what can I say?
Really? I agree that it's higher energy but I don't think it's to the point of being obnoxious. For the tone he was going for at the time I think the delivery was perfectly fine.
I agree. I discovered this channel recently and like it, but can't listen to some of the older videos. This guy definitely is best suited to interesting, mature and informative content, rather than wacky and over-the-top. Not everyone needs to be Little Z, Coney or Alpharad.
@@guythatdosethingssometimes2651 Well cringy isn’t necessarily bad tbh. It’s just a weird phase that’s entertaining to go through but does leave some embarrassment or second hand embarrassment if you’re not the one doing the cringe. I will say tho, even in his early videos MockRock made them high quality and they still stand today.
@@Jackaljkljkl I feel like everyone goes through a certain “phase” where like their content feels too sophisticated or like saturated with the same stuff. It’s hard to see it when it’s happening right now, but when you look back you can tell when something definitely happened. Like Cringe Phase and then Boom I’m a professional
Corrin is interesting because they definitely were a straight up nerfed version of their Smash 4 incarnation at first, but then their uair and bair got ridiculous knockback buffs and both kill absurdly early. Being able to cancel pin adds more variance still, while uair and bair already killed reasonably early because of where you tend to go for them, so it's hard to say which is more impactful for me.
33:35 Ryu gained the ability to cancel his AERIALS into specials in this game, he has always been able to cancel most normals into specials. Nothing about this has changed through patches. This ultimately did not change much for Ryu or Ken, kinda just allows them to kill with up air into Shoryuken. Ryu's Fireballs have been insanely buffed from Smash 4 > Ultimate and is no doubt the winner. His entire playstyle now revolves around his projectile play especially thanks to the last Ultimate patch where they increased the damage of both fireballs.
@@Schrodingers_douchebag I think the point of the changes was what is different from Smash 4 to base Ultimate, but I could be wrong. Also down smash cancelling did not change very much for Ryu and it minorly buffed Ken's combo damage and shield pressure.
4:10 Going to say - while ftilt turning into a combo tool for Yoshi is a big change, I'd actually argue bair being a combo starter (into ftilt or bair), kill confirm (fsmash, usmash, uair), or a kill move itself is actually one of his best changes, moreso than ftilt. This is also noting that the hitbox is actually pretty disjointed for what it is, notably the last hit, the one that turns it into a legitimate kill move.
I did think about back air, but the thing is, the drag down stuff is a universal change (it's enabled by reduced landing lag), so those aspects of it aren't eligible for the list.
@@MockRockTalk Ah, right, I forgot about your criteria - though I'd still elect bair simply because it's now an aerial disjointed kill move, something that he only had with uair previously.
Bair is a great neutral tool too because of that last part. It really helps yoshi get a bit of range because the only other range he has is egg throw, none of his melee attacks are very disjointed.
@@MockRockTalkThat’s true, if you filtered it with the criteria. It would be a run of the mill disjoined kill move, which is good, but not as good as f tilt.
Lucas has a number of changes that I could list as important. Dtilt having much better launch angles & better combo ability. Pk thunder getting its endlag of 70 reduced down to 44, making it one of the best offstage pressure tools in the game & a annoying tool to ensnare landings with. Ftilt getting a hitbox increase. Increased knockback on it with the angled version receiving equal knockback to the non-angled version. Uair having much less endlag, making it a combo juggle tool and kill confirms with uair > bair/dair Nair's hits 1-3 being combo starters from a fastfall from a shorthop ( which I believed they weren't in s4). & The whole move getting less hitstun, which makes reacting to sdi a frame 7 move harder. Pk freeze not being completely pointless, lingering for 1 frame (it's 4 now), & being one of the safest projectiles on a shield. With the uncharged version being -15 & freeze having 23 frames of endlag. Freeze actually has utility as a landing punish, a tool to use during ledgetrapping, or as a tool to force people to stall or telegraph recovery/ledge options Zair being able to be double jump cancelled, giving him one of the best disjoints because it clanks 17.3% worth of projectile damage & leads into fair, his buffed dash attack, dair, irar bair, dash grab, or fsmash with a micro-dash. & The move is -5 on shield with a faf of 21 if executed perfectly and around 25-30 with some delay. I'll take grab followups being removed if Lucas became a character with a functional moveset, which he did.
While I 100% agree that getting a functional grab is Pac-Man's best change, I think the fact that they *halved* bonus fruit's charge time is also very important and could've got a special mention
I only really got into smash last year and I’m getting….decent. But the knowledge and effort of good players is so intense. An analysis like this is so beyond me.
You don't really need to worry too much about stuff like tier lists and discussions about competitive viability unless you're actually looking to compete at a high level. There's a reason Ganondorf is the most common character to reach Elite Smash despite being widely considered one of the worst characters in the game :p
The best way to get better at understanding this stuff is to simply expose yourself to more of it. I also recommend IzawSmash’s “Art of Smash Ultimate” series.
While you have improved a considerable amount in terms of writing and whatnot, I actually kind of liked the old delivery. It’s bouncy and energetic, like Smash itself.
Also, Alpharad has a specific sort of humor that is irreplicable. Basically, he always comes off as if his life is shitposting. No one can just do that even as a persona.
12:23 Pichu's ultimate compared to his melee's fair has gone from litteraly hurting him more then anything to actually being an, if not great, usable move . Where as bair wasn't really that useful in melee (you could basically just use nair instead), and even if it got pretty buffed I think what move to pick for the video is still debatable .
I would argue that Nikita being the best change is a result of Ultimate’s universal mechanics. Yes the buffs on it were crazy and it is still debatably the best change but the lack of infinite airdodges is what really makes Nikita one of the best edgeguarding tools in the game.
For Robin I'd actually give it to the addition of Levin Nair. Taking a alright move in Bronze Nair in 4 and making it debatably the characters best move while keeping everything it did before at the only real cost of not being able to switch to Bronze Sword without landing is way more important than making a niche move better but still niche.
I can't wait to see every character's best move post DLC! Will back specials and diagonal tilts be included or will those be attached to character specific gimmicks?
It's strange that considering your statement in 0:40 you still use ESAM as a reference in the "best of" vídeo. Anyways, i love your content! Keep the hard work
Arcfire's a lot better now (as long as you don't try to zone with it; it's not designed for that), but honestly I think two other things could work for Robin's best change in Ultimate: - All four Thunder spells are useful and have their own roles to play now. Thunder is a low-commitment poke with a few combo routes based on positioning, Elthunder is a conventional zoning move that can also snipe offstage, Arcthunder changed from a setup tool to a hard hitting, shield shredding, safe on block anti-rushdown cluster of pain, and Thoron got its knockback values changed to where it can kill super early offstage or at the ledge while still being a full screen punish and zone breaker that destroys weaker projectiles on contact and keeps going. In Smash 4, Arcthunder was the only spell worth using 80% of the time. In Ultimate, all four are worth using (though Thoron is more situational than the others). - Robin's neutral air gained a Levin Sword version, and it is a _war crime_ in motion. While it's not a quick pressure breaker or combo starter like most nairs are, instead it's secretly one of the best spacing tools in the entire game. Not only does it outrange every other neutral air in the game aside from Mega Man's, it outranges almost every _forward and back air_ in the game! Did I mention it's Frame 7 and its knockback angle sends people straight horizontally, making it as useful for stage control and edgeguarding as Smash 4 Cloud's nair was while being on a character who can safely go way further offstage than Cloud ever could?
Pokémon Trainer's best change is actually a 2-way tie between faster swapping and Pokémon no longer getting exhausted mid battle. As for individual 'Mons, Ivysaur's aerials are now monstrous, with Up Air and Down Air being more infamous than the others.
Squirtile probably just landing lag changes but his upsmash probably (he was the best in brawl and loosing type effectiveness was actually quite bad for him give he had a fire resistance, Ivesaur was the best since he was by far the worst character in brawl, I’d say probably up special it doesn’t get trumped not put him into free fall but it’s basically another pichu situation Charizard more mixed lacking rock smash isn’t great, probably back air but I’m not particularly familiar with his shady 4 kit (hell I’m basically unfamiliar with every games kit outside of occasional mentions in videos
A really good aspect of Ike's Aether is that being a kill move makes it closer than what it is in Fire Emblem, where Aether is one of the stronger skills and deals insane damage.
Rosa players (and by that I mean Dabuz) use Rosa’s attack cancels a lot still. If you’re seeing luma get a weird dash foreword, it’s likely attack cancel nair. Granted, it’s mostly just dash attack cancel aerial, but still nice
YES YES YES! This is the content I found your channel in, this is exactly the itch I've been having! Thank you so much! Edit: after having watched the video, this is even MORE the kind of content I was hoping for. Seeing the game be transformed by balance patches was exciting, since Ultimate's cycle was my first time being present in the greater community with an active interest, and having this summary that goes over those changes is a bit like recapturing that magic.
i love this content, he never acts as though hes the be all and end all but also brings enough info and facts to the table to make you think twice about even the things you thought were set in stone
26:15 Would this be more considered an engine change? That looks like a really good combo angle, and without such extreme hitstun cancelling in Ult it would probably be a comparable move.
Kinda wish you did best changes for each Pokemon of the trainer trio it's hard to say exactly what are the best changes considering how bad PT was in brawl
I absolutely love your content, but man, I'd be lying if I said I didn't kinda miss your earlier, funnier style of videos just a little bit. Real good video though!
yo you know what would be dope? An item pull tier list. Some characters have item pulls in their moveset (eg. Rob's Gyro, Bowser Jr. Mechakoopa, Peach's turnips, etc). it would be cool to rank them against each other. great video as always!
Ummmm, I forgot that wario up tilt was nerfed. I almost never played wario until recently when I’ve been trying to get all elite smash characters, and I kept wondering why it wasn’t as insane as I heard it was.
I actually rewatched the video a month ago and was taken aback from the different tone compared to now. I definitely think your more mellow? (I don't know what word to use) voice is better for the channel.
For Yoshi, a semi-significant change is that B-Air kills better. In Sm4sh, B-Air was a strange move where each hit had a ton of hitlag, making it seem like a powerful move, but its damage was average and it basically never killed. In Ultimate, it actually kills now!
7:55 Well would you look at that, Bass has been hitting *hella* rests since summit lol. He didn’t take long at all to make this take outdated but I don’t blame you because it wasn’t until very, very recently Bass started to go for more rests.
I'm kind of super late, but I have to add this: The best change for Marth and Lucina comes not from a move change but an engine one. Pivot cancels basically help patch out one of if not the biggest weakness in the duo in a lack of burst options that would often mean giving up an advantageous position in Smash 4 if you pushed the opponent too far to the side. Nowadays drifting away vs them is incredibly risky because they can just slide into you with this gigantic swing that covers air and ground and that for Marth forces tech chases with the sourspots at mid %s and kills pretty early with the tipper, specially if it catches you retreating into ledge which is a common way to circumvent being juggled for a lot of characters in Ultimate. Plus it enables certain new routes like sour Fair > PC F Tilt to kill confirm in certain spots and greatly improved their tech chasing capabilities compared to Smash's 4 limited tools to foxtrot F Smash, Dancing Blade and Dolphin Slash out of run. The reason I just wouldn't give it to Dancing Blade to Marth is that while Forward 4 became a monstruosity of a move killing sub 50 with rage easily and Up 4 also being great in its own right, trading the situational vertical kill you'd use in Smash 4 for a very awkward juggle position and a tool that can force platform tech chases early for Marth which synergizes amazingly with his kit, the trade off is that now the down finisher is just. Worthless. 70 FAF means it's one of the unsafest moves on shield at -50 which removes one of the utility uses it had in Smash 4 as a safer mix up on shield if spaced, while also entirely removing the tech chase situation it used to force in Smash 4. Not to mention being easily escapable with SDI up which will also lead into a heavy punish due to its 1 second of endlag (WHYYYYY) and the reward just being 18% at best thanks to the nature of Dancing Blade's individual swings registering on the staling queue making DBD4 NEVER hit for its fresh damage. That paired up with the small tipper size of Down 4 and the lack of reliable set ups that can lead to all 5 hits tippering (mind you this still sucks cuz it's easier to SDI up than sours), it just doesn't bring the same amount of versatility it had in Smash 4 (although still a better move nonetheless)
Whoa I always wanted an update! And dw if you think past you might have been cringey or tryhard or whatever the kids say- without a doubt, you are the clearest and most engaging speaker on RUclips. Great voice (I'm nb and go femme a lot but would kill for that voice), clear diction, and a nice tidal tone of voice that beautifully weaves in and out of whatever the conversation is. And everything you say sounds both off the cuff and scripted bc of spontaneous little inputs and clear concise both info and essay section. Medical stuff has made my voice kinda clunky and diction embarrassing but you speak like how I want others to read my writing someday. Lotta odd compliments ik but you could only embarrass yourself with how you've grown from a strong start!
Ok Bayonetta's up tilt connecting reliably is a much better change than her jab imo. Her up up tilt can now combo into her specials on it's own (rather than NEEDING to hit the top hitbox, which was usually done by other moves. It still has the use of being used after other moves as well) AND it can lead into a kill confirm with sweet spot back air. That and it scoops grounded opponents rather than sending them outward and getting basically nothing off of it in the past.
I can’t wait to see the best of every move post dlc! I do want to say that something I think you overlooked was that if the moves are in a vacuum then bigger hit boxes should be given more consideration.
I think Jr’s best change by far is jab Almost useless in smash 4 and didn’t work a lot Now one of the best jabs in the game and kills at like 100 at the ledge
4:49 Kirby the pink beyblade was funny, but yeah, I actually prefer Kirby's new dash attack since it doesn't feel slow af, it feels like he keeps momentum now
I don't know why, but I remember some of the lines from that video pretty well. Maybe the over the top delivery kinda did that, but that video stuck in my memory extremely well for some reason
You're too harsh on your old self. The video pretty much holds up. I think Marth/Lucina's Side-B is the one take that I disagree with: MkLeo in Smash4 got a lot of use out of Side-B. I don't think it's changed that much.
It's still crazy to me that there are no more patches for Ultimate. I keep expecting to hear about a new dlc character being added during Nintendo directs.
Bowser main here I basically agree with the comment you wrote to Tierzoo back in the older vid about his dsmash (which basically means I would kinda disagree with what you said in this video, emphasis on the "kinda", though), mainly because, while fire breath became much better as well, it already had some really good uses in smash 4, whereas his dsmash went from completely outclassed to filling somewhat of a unique role in his kit: a great way to callout spotdodges, a super strong punish against people regrabbing the ledge, it can cover techs in place pretty nicely... You know, stuff that no other move in his kit does quite as well
For Yoshi I might go with the changes to his shield? In Smash 4 his shield came out frame 2 rather than frame 1, and his vastly reduced traction also gives him a much better OOS game. Another good candidate would be Egg Throw bouncing on the ground, giving it extra utility in neutral (and it also has more hitlag making followups a lot more viable, including setups into fair spike)
Shield falls under the “universal” category. I think traction does too since most of the cast has similar or vastly better traction compared to previous iterations
I get that pickings are INCREDIBLY slim for bayo since pretty much nothing about her was buffed, but jab being a kill move doesn't really matter since in pretty much every scenario you're better off going for a forward throw. I'd say her best change is PROBABLY the bigger hitbox on witch time, which can let her deal with projectiles more, which is something she struggles with, but that doesn't make up for that move being nerfed from being the best counter in the smash history to just an honestly not good move so idk. Also, for mii brawler, his best change might be up air, considering it can now combo into itself, into other moves, ladder with platforms, and also true combo from rising into thrust uppercut for a kill confirm which is honestly busted.
God, I am so glad MockRock changed his delivery style. The resulting juxtaposition from having both the old and new in these types of videos makes the older delivery style even more jarring.
@@erikhepp4144 he has moves that interact with each other and stage control through that, that's how I see rivals character design. It's not Rivals heavy character design otherwise he would have mobility through some of his options, maybe having super jump be a charge input that has more air speed, or a hammer spin when Gordow is out. Replacing side special, or jet hammer making him rush forward when charging that can also hit gordow for a heavier launch.
I used spirits to make him as fast as possible with the combo: super sonic spirit (a three slot spirit with speed up) and three speed up secondarys, then gave the enemy equal power spirits and he feels amazing to play
@@dextra_24703 yeah that makes sense. Gordo sticking to stage, having different angles, interacting with his inhale, and being able to catch it all feels rivals-esque. That stronger gordo throw idea is really cool and would be great for mixups. Also yeah replacing jet hammer with some sort of burst option would amazing but the big guy's still a blast to play.
8:57 I would still say down smash is a good choice. I haven't watched a lot of tourney footage lately so I don't know how it is at top level but I main Bowser, and it kills by the ledge barely later than forward smash while having barely half the startup. It's my go to when someone leaves themselves open while they're cornered. It also gives him a very devastating parry punish against moves where forward smash would still be too slow even with a parry.
Just a heads up, you counted the universal change to jumpsquats as snake's best change; almost everyone got that treatment, including most heavyweights.
It is a little confusing, but I'm pretty sure the implication was that he was keeping Nikita as his "official" answer for the best change, and the jumpsquat mention was more because it was just so impactful that he had to at least mention it. (The section was at 20:21 if you wanted to rewatch it.)
As an ex meta knight main mach tornado was more useful in smash 4 cause it did an insane amount of damage (23% fresh) especially for him so dash attack nado put you in dash attack ladder range. Where in ultimate its just another Nair to kill offstage and he lost a lot of his damage. I think his best buff is down b going further
For Rosa, if you say for anything for Rosa herself in her moveset, I say her nair got better. It's lag got changed a bit to be have faster end lag, has good combo potential and potential kill with Fair and Up Smash.
I'm not quite sure what to think of nair, I know a lot of prominent Rosalina players were really unhappy with it earlier on. After being buffed and having more time to develop, I'm not sure if that's still the general consensus, but I'd have to think it's at least a big tradeoff rather than a strict improvement like Luma spawning faster.
That’s technically an engine change, but since Lucas is the only character to legitimately benefit from it (Ness and Mewtwo can double jump cancel item toss thanks to the same physics changes but that’s very niche), I’d still credit it as a buff to specifically him. I’d definitely consider Ftilt’s buffs more important though Ftilt went from being extremely meh to a solid contender for the best Ftilt in the game, while Zair went from a core aspect of Lucas’ neutral to a core aspect of Lucas’ neutral that’s used differently as a neutral tool and also extends combos
A lot of "I watch my old content!" vids come off as lazy content recycling, but as usual MR turns it into a valuable way to discuss the game and analyze the changes over the course of the patch cycle/meta...while still cringing at his old content XD
For corrin, corrin I really don’t think is at this point nerfed from their smash 4 version due to buff dates, I just think they are balanced different now
I don't get the Mario one. The knockback on up B wasn't increased at all, neither was the angle changed. In fact, technically the knockback was LOWERED slightly, but it's such a small difference that it doesn't really matter. I think what you mean is Mario has an easier time carrying opponents up near the blast zone to begin with, because up B itself wasn't buffed.
Thanks for watching everyone! This was a fun format that I'll probably do at least a couple more times at some point, let me know what you thought of it as well as what your list looks like!
Correction: Ryu's change to special cancelling only applies to aerials, which actually does make his projectile buffs his most significant change.
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Man I was watching your old videos and recent AMA and was thinking “I wonder what he will do next” and then I got this video woo
I'm just gonna go ahead and assume the Biggest Nerf counterpart to this video is in the pipeline.
Why do people undersell Megaman Bair?
Hey MockRock, when are you gonna do the jack of all trades archetype video?
IMO, Pokémon Trainer's biggest change isn't JUST faster swapping. It's actually a 2-way-tie between faster switching and Pokémon no longer getting tired from prolonged usage.
Commenting just to say that I still like the phrase "KIRBY, METEOR OF DEATH" a few years later.
It pops into my head every few months, so this was a nice revisit
That line is amazing
*KORBY
I scream that as a Kirby main when i get a kill with Dash Attack lmao
@@sylvicx3437 I main Kirby so I can do this
“If you look back at your past self and cringe, it only means you’ve improved” -Alpharad
@@WhiteKnuckleRide512 Why?
@@WhiteKnuckleRide512 I legitimately think the opposite on what made him interesting. I love that he is branching out his content if he is tired of constantly making Smash videos. Plus I never thought he was cringe.
I kind of miss the old mockrock. This new one is just bland and monotone
@@Benjawin6671 I think he has more chilled out rather than being more bland and monotone.
@@fr0stdr4ke95 Nah I think "depressed" is the better word
I quite like this format. It's a nice nostalgia trip and provides more insight into the minutiae of the game that I still don't really understand lol
I actually thought the "meteor of death" was kinda funny, I think stuff like that is fine to have every once in a while just don't do it all the time, then it will get cringe
10:18 I think you just described everyone’s quarantine experience in 5 seconds
for real it feels like its been 1 year since covid started
Your old delivery sounds like you're a morning dj doing ad reads and the sponsor asked you to "punch up your energy" between every take.
Needless to say, the progress you've made since then in terms of sounding natural is inspiring.
If this is less work than a normal revamped video, which seems like the case, I'd love to see more
It's so much less work, you have no idea lol
Definitely think that Pit Down B deserves a mention.
Being + on that move breaking is insane.
Plus, his new rapid jab is one of his best changes in the transition, good lord
Just in general i think pit is the most improved in ssbu, he and dark pit went from a super generic character to a character with a pretty amazing advantage state, orbitars is probably *the* best reflector move in the game thanks to it functioning similar to a shield, uppercut/electroshock are great kill moves and yeah they're still shite but pit's airells got so much better, i mean sour dair combos arenuts
How + is he?
@@honathan2135 They are stuck in shieldstun of the attack that lands and Pit is +4 at worst from the move, which gives enough time to buffer DSmash. I have buffered Electrpshock out of a Smash Attack breaking my shield so you can be like +22, it's really insane.
@@MakoShiruba bruh
I think Mario's actual best change is fludd being stronger tbh. It's actually useful outside of just gimping people
Though to be fair it was already used to disturb movement in smash 4.
It’s still not as strong as squirtle water gun and has a longer charge time which just makes me confused.
It’s kind of weird how a few years ago your voice was more upbeat and yes, cringy, but more recently you’ve taken a more calm approach. It really does coincide with how analytical and in depth your videos have become
Edit: I still smile at the “Kirby the Pink Beyblade or KIRBY, METEOR OF DEATH!!!” It’s funny what can I say?
Really? I agree that it's higher energy but I don't think it's to the point of being obnoxious. For the tone he was going for at the time I think the delivery was perfectly fine.
I agree.
I discovered this channel recently and like it, but can't listen to some of the older videos.
This guy definitely is best suited to interesting, mature and informative content, rather than wacky and over-the-top.
Not everyone needs to be Little Z, Coney or Alpharad.
@@guythatdosethingssometimes2651 Well cringy isn’t necessarily bad tbh. It’s just a weird phase that’s entertaining to go through but does leave some embarrassment or second hand embarrassment if you’re not the one doing the cringe.
I will say tho, even in his early videos MockRock made them high quality and they still stand today.
@@Jackaljkljkl I feel like everyone goes through a certain “phase” where like their content feels too sophisticated or like saturated with the same stuff. It’s hard to see it when it’s happening right now, but when you look back you can tell when something definitely happened. Like Cringe Phase and then Boom I’m a professional
Corrin is interesting because they definitely were a straight up nerfed version of their Smash 4 incarnation at first, but then their uair and bair got ridiculous knockback buffs and both kill absurdly early. Being able to cancel pin adds more variance still, while uair and bair already killed reasonably early because of where you tend to go for them, so it's hard to say which is more impactful for me.
INSTAPIN INSTAWIN
Cancelling pin is for betas.
Real men pin-kick onto a shield from miles away, and get UpSmashed.
It really is insane just how much time passed since ultimate came out, it still feels like it came out yesterday.
It did come out yesterday, what do you mean? Life is good here in December 2019. It does kind of feel like time has stopped, though...
@@Icemario87ultimate came out in December 2018…
Are you okay?
@@pavlox8099 No, you're right. It came out a year ago...
The sheer commitment put into *"KIRBY, METEOR OF DEATH"* was absolutely hilarious, the style sure changed overtime.
33:35 Ryu gained the ability to cancel his AERIALS into specials in this game, he has always been able to cancel most normals into specials. Nothing about this has changed through patches. This ultimately did not change much for Ryu or Ken, kinda just allows them to kill with up air into Shoryuken.
Ryu's Fireballs have been insanely buffed from Smash 4 > Ultimate and is no doubt the winner. His entire playstyle now revolves around his projectile play especially thanks to the last Ultimate patch where they increased the damage of both fireballs.
This is a good catch, I've issued a correction in the pinned comment, thank you!
Actually he did get a buff to those cancels, he has the ability to cancel down smash of all things into specials
@@Schrodingers_douchebag I think the point of the changes was what is different from Smash 4 to base Ultimate, but I could be wrong. Also down smash cancelling did not change very much for Ryu and it minorly buffed Ken's combo damage and shield pressure.
@@shanerpressley Yknow what? I actually dunno if your right. I don’t fuckin play those two often.
4:10 Going to say - while ftilt turning into a combo tool for Yoshi is a big change, I'd actually argue bair being a combo starter (into ftilt or bair), kill confirm (fsmash, usmash, uair), or a kill move itself is actually one of his best changes, moreso than ftilt.
This is also noting that the hitbox is actually pretty disjointed for what it is, notably the last hit, the one that turns it into a legitimate kill move.
I did think about back air, but the thing is, the drag down stuff is a universal change (it's enabled by reduced landing lag), so those aspects of it aren't eligible for the list.
@@MockRockTalk Ah, right, I forgot about your criteria - though I'd still elect bair simply because it's now an aerial disjointed kill move, something that he only had with uair previously.
Bair is a great neutral tool too because of that last part. It really helps yoshi get a bit of range because the only other range he has is egg throw, none of his melee attacks are very disjointed.
@@MockRockTalkThat’s true, if you filtered it with the criteria. It would be a run of the mill disjoined kill move, which is good, but not as good as f tilt.
Lucas has a number of changes that I could list as important.
Dtilt having much better launch angles & better combo ability.
Pk thunder getting its endlag of 70 reduced down to 44, making it one of the best offstage pressure tools in the game & a annoying tool to ensnare landings with.
Ftilt getting a hitbox increase. Increased knockback on it with the angled version receiving equal knockback to the non-angled version.
Uair having much less endlag, making it a combo juggle tool and kill confirms with uair > bair/dair
Nair's hits 1-3 being combo starters from a fastfall from a shorthop ( which I believed they weren't in s4). & The whole move getting less hitstun, which makes reacting to sdi a frame 7 move harder.
Pk freeze not being completely pointless, lingering for 1 frame (it's 4 now), & being one of the safest projectiles on a shield. With the uncharged version being -15 & freeze having 23 frames of endlag. Freeze actually has utility as a landing punish, a tool to use during ledgetrapping, or as a tool to force people to stall or telegraph recovery/ledge options
Zair being able to be double jump cancelled, giving him one of the best disjoints because it clanks 17.3% worth of projectile damage & leads into fair, his buffed dash attack, dair, irar bair, dash grab, or fsmash with a micro-dash. & The move is -5 on shield with a faf of 21 if executed perfectly and around 25-30 with some delay.
I'll take grab followups being removed if Lucas became a character with a functional moveset, which he did.
While I 100% agree that getting a functional grab is Pac-Man's best change, I think the fact that they *halved* bonus fruit's charge time is also very important and could've got a special mention
Eh. They were still good in smash 4 vs grab which never gets used
The whole “oh good I didn’t choose it :) …wait I DID choose it!” part about PK Freeze is very funny to me
I only really got into smash last year and I’m getting….decent. But the knowledge and effort of good players is so intense. An analysis like this is so beyond me.
You don't really need to worry too much about stuff like tier lists and discussions about competitive viability unless you're actually looking to compete at a high level. There's a reason Ganondorf is the most common character to reach Elite Smash despite being widely considered one of the worst characters in the game :p
The best way to get better at understanding this stuff is to simply expose yourself to more of it. I also recommend IzawSmash’s “Art of Smash Ultimate” series.
honestly, even though i prefer new mockrock, i do miss the loud mockrock lol.
While you have improved a considerable amount in terms of writing and whatnot, I actually kind of liked the old delivery. It’s bouncy and energetic, like Smash itself.
Hard disagree.
He has grown into himself as an interesting analytical creator, rather than a wacky Alpharad knockoff.
When Alpharad made smash videos 😔
(Yes I know he made a smash video pretty recently but I doubt he’ll frequently make them)
Also, Alpharad has a specific sort of humor that is irreplicable. Basically, he always comes off as if his life is shitposting. No one can just do that even as a persona.
@Jackaljkljkl he wasn't a knockoff and he still made analytical very well. Now he's just any other boring analysis channel
12:23 Pichu's ultimate compared to his melee's fair has gone from litteraly hurting him more then anything to actually being an, if not great, usable move .
Where as bair wasn't really that useful in melee (you could basically just use nair instead), and even if it got pretty buffed I think what move to pick for the video is still debatable .
also Pichu's melee _grab_ (especially dash grab) was awful and now he has a really fast grab with decent range?
I would argue that Nikita being the best change is a result of Ultimate’s universal mechanics. Yes the buffs on it were crazy and it is still debatably the best change but the lack of infinite airdodges is what really makes Nikita one of the best edgeguarding tools in the game.
Yeah it’s part of it (sane with his good air fishing was in brawl) but at the same times it’s still insane so it’s a bit of column A bit of column B
I really like the older vids
liked them when they came out still like them today
bit I can't deny how much you've improved
For Robin I'd actually give it to the addition of Levin Nair. Taking a alright move in Bronze Nair in 4 and making it debatably the characters best move while keeping everything it did before at the only real cost of not being able to switch to Bronze Sword without landing is way more important than making a niche move better but still niche.
4:51 what are you talking about? KIRBY METEOR OF DEATH was charming and funny!
I can't wait to see every character's best move post DLC! Will back specials and diagonal tilts be included or will those be attached to character specific gimmicks?
It's strange that considering your statement in 0:40 you still use ESAM as a reference in the "best of" vídeo. Anyways, i love your content! Keep the hard work
As much as i prefer your new presentation style, i do still find "KIRBY, METEOR OF DEATH" rather charming even 3 years later
Arcfire's a lot better now (as long as you don't try to zone with it; it's not designed for that), but honestly I think two other things could work for Robin's best change in Ultimate:
- All four Thunder spells are useful and have their own roles to play now. Thunder is a low-commitment poke with a few combo routes based on positioning, Elthunder is a conventional zoning move that can also snipe offstage, Arcthunder changed from a setup tool to a hard hitting, shield shredding, safe on block anti-rushdown cluster of pain, and Thoron got its knockback values changed to where it can kill super early offstage or at the ledge while still being a full screen punish and zone breaker that destroys weaker projectiles on contact and keeps going. In Smash 4, Arcthunder was the only spell worth using 80% of the time. In Ultimate, all four are worth using (though Thoron is more situational than the others).
- Robin's neutral air gained a Levin Sword version, and it is a _war crime_ in motion. While it's not a quick pressure breaker or combo starter like most nairs are, instead it's secretly one of the best spacing tools in the entire game. Not only does it outrange every other neutral air in the game aside from Mega Man's, it outranges almost every _forward and back air_ in the game! Did I mention it's Frame 7 and its knockback angle sends people straight horizontally, making it as useful for stage control and edgeguarding as Smash 4 Cloud's nair was while being on a character who can safely go way further offstage than Cloud ever could?
You mentioned Pokemon Change as being PT's most improved move overall--what would you say for the Pokemon themselves individually?
Pokémon Trainer's best change is actually a 2-way tie between faster swapping and Pokémon no longer getting exhausted mid battle.
As for individual 'Mons, Ivysaur's aerials are now monstrous, with Up Air and Down Air being more infamous than the others.
Squirtile probably just landing lag changes but his upsmash probably (he was the best in brawl and loosing type effectiveness was actually quite bad for him give he had a fire resistance,
Ivesaur was the best since he was by far the worst character in brawl, I’d say probably up special it doesn’t get trumped not put him into free fall but it’s basically another pichu situation
Charizard more mixed lacking rock smash isn’t great, probably back air but I’m not particularly familiar with his shady 4 kit (hell I’m basically unfamiliar with every games kit outside of occasional mentions in videos
Also type match upd
@@jmurray1110 Vine Whip is super slept on. It tethers from a pretty reasonable distance, it kills, it hits under PS2 and kills that way...
I still think Wario's dash attack is his best move easily. Very fast, very strong, and just one of the most perfect moves to kill with.
A really good aspect of Ike's Aether is that being a kill move makes it closer than what it is in Fire Emblem, where Aether is one of the stronger skills and deals insane damage.
Rosa players (and by that I mean Dabuz) use Rosa’s attack cancels a lot still. If you’re seeing luma get a weird dash foreword, it’s likely attack cancel nair. Granted, it’s mostly just dash attack cancel aerial, but still nice
YES YES YES! This is the content I found your channel in, this is exactly the itch I've been having! Thank you so much!
Edit: after having watched the video, this is even MORE the kind of content I was hoping for. Seeing the game be transformed by balance patches was exciting, since Ultimate's cycle was my first time being present in the greater community with an active interest, and having this summary that goes over those changes is a bit like recapturing that magic.
KIRBY, METEOR OF DEATH
Your commentary has definitely improved a lot over the years but I sometimes do still miss stuff like that tbh lmao
Kirby: meteor of death is a classic, I think that Mock Rock studios should really be working on a sequel
Been looking forward to this since I watched the original! Also looking forward to the "best of" moves as well. Keep up the good content!
i love this content, he never acts as though hes the be all and end all but also brings enough info and facts to the table to make you think twice about even the things you thought were set in stone
26:15 Would this be more considered an engine change? That looks like a really good combo angle, and without such extreme hitstun cancelling in Ult it would probably be a comparable move.
I think you should rank all the stalling-falls in the game. It would be a really interesting list.
That one's already on my idea document, it'll get made at some point!
@@MockRockTalk Ah, I see. Can you make a competitive tier list for all smash characters? I love your content man👍
Kinda wish you did best changes for each Pokemon of the trainer trio
it's hard to say exactly what are the best changes considering how bad PT was in brawl
This was a good format. It was interesting to look back at how much some characters have changed.
I absolutely love your content, but man, I'd be lying if I said I didn't kinda miss your earlier, funnier style of videos just a little bit. Real good video though!
yo you know what would be dope? An item pull tier list. Some characters have item pulls in their moveset (eg. Rob's Gyro, Bowser Jr. Mechakoopa, Peach's turnips, etc). it would be cool to rank them against each other. great video as always!
The change in audio quality is fantastic and really shows your growth over the years :)
Ummmm, I forgot that wario up tilt was nerfed. I almost never played wario until recently when I’ve been trying to get all elite smash characters, and I kept wondering why it wasn’t as insane as I heard it was.
I actually rewatched the video a month ago and was taken aback from the different tone compared to now. I definitely think your more mellow? (I don't know what word to use) voice is better for the channel.
Personally, I really liked the more schlock-y tone of voice you had in your earlier videos. I thought it suited you pretty well.
For Yoshi, a semi-significant change is that B-Air kills better. In Sm4sh, B-Air was a strange move where each hit had a ton of hitlag, making it seem like a powerful move, but its damage was average and it basically never killed. In Ultimate, it actually kills now!
Super Late Edit: It’s definitely Up-B, the eggs go farther and it’s a better actual recovery move, not sure how I forgot about that
fun video! I like the format and your comments are insightful as always.
Yeah, your delivery has way improved over three years!
So happy this is post dlc. Really makes a difference
"She's used her vegetables all the time."
I wonder if that could be some kind of innuendo... lol
Good video as always! Great insights and points.
Honestly old you still sounds good! "KIRBY, METEOR OF DEATH" still got a good chuckle outta me.
7:55
Well would you look at that, Bass has been hitting *hella* rests since summit lol. He didn’t take long at all to make this take outdated but I don’t blame you because it wasn’t until very, very recently Bass started to go for more rests.
Fun fact: in smash 4 theres a custom move for ness that gets rid of psi magnet for just a hitbox instead of an absorbing move.
Did it function anything like Ultimate PSI Magnet?
@@shanerpressley i’m not sure, I haven’t unlocked it yet.
I'm kind of super late, but I have to add this:
The best change for Marth and Lucina comes not from a move change but an engine one.
Pivot cancels basically help patch out one of if not the biggest weakness in the duo in a lack of burst options that would often mean giving up an advantageous position in Smash 4 if you pushed the opponent too far to the side.
Nowadays drifting away vs them is incredibly risky because they can just slide into you with this gigantic swing that covers air and ground and that for Marth forces tech chases with the sourspots at mid %s and kills pretty early with the tipper, specially if it catches you retreating into ledge which is a common way to circumvent being juggled for a lot of characters in Ultimate.
Plus it enables certain new routes like sour Fair > PC F Tilt to kill confirm in certain spots and greatly improved their tech chasing capabilities compared to Smash's 4 limited tools to foxtrot F Smash, Dancing Blade and Dolphin Slash out of run.
The reason I just wouldn't give it to Dancing Blade to Marth is that while Forward 4 became a monstruosity of a move killing sub 50 with rage easily and Up 4 also being great in its own right, trading the situational vertical kill you'd use in Smash 4 for a very awkward juggle position and a tool that can force platform tech chases early for Marth which synergizes amazingly with his kit, the trade off is that now the down finisher is just. Worthless.
70 FAF means it's one of the unsafest moves on shield at -50 which removes one of the utility uses it had in Smash 4 as a safer mix up on shield if spaced, while also entirely removing the tech chase situation it used to force in Smash 4. Not to mention being easily escapable with SDI up which will also lead into a heavy punish due to its 1 second of endlag (WHYYYYY) and the reward just being 18% at best thanks to the nature of Dancing Blade's individual swings registering on the staling queue making DBD4 NEVER hit for its fresh damage. That paired up with the small tipper size of Down 4 and the lack of reliable set ups that can lead to all 5 hits tippering (mind you this still sucks cuz it's easier to SDI up than sours), it just doesn't bring the same amount of versatility it had in Smash 4 (although still a better move nonetheless)
Whoa I always wanted an update! And dw if you think past you might have been cringey or tryhard or whatever the kids say- without a doubt, you are the clearest and most engaging speaker on RUclips. Great voice (I'm nb and go femme a lot but would kill for that voice), clear diction, and a nice tidal tone of voice that beautifully weaves in and out of whatever the conversation is. And everything you say sounds both off the cuff and scripted bc of spontaneous little inputs and clear concise both info and essay section. Medical stuff has made my voice kinda clunky and diction embarrassing but you speak like how I want others to read my writing someday. Lotta odd compliments ik but you could only embarrass yourself with how you've grown from a strong start!
Ok Bayonetta's up tilt connecting reliably is a much better change than her jab imo. Her up up tilt can now combo into her specials on it's own (rather than NEEDING to hit the top hitbox, which was usually done by other moves. It still has the use of being used after other moves as well) AND it can lead into a kill confirm with sweet spot back air. That and it scoops grounded opponents rather than sending them outward and getting basically nothing off of it in the past.
YES BEST OF EVERY MOVE RETURNS, I have watched the OG ones like 6 times
the growth in this video is insane you’ve come so far
I can’t wait to see the best of every move post dlc! I do want to say that something I think you overlooked was that if the moves are in a vacuum then bigger hit boxes should be given more consideration.
I think Jr’s best change by far is jab
Almost useless in smash 4 and didn’t work a lot
Now one of the best jabs in the game and kills at like 100 at the ledge
That's a universal change to the way rapid jabs work, Bowser Jr was one of the big winners of that change but it's not eligible for the list
@@MockRockTalk oh I see I didn’t realize it was universal
I'm eager to see the retrospective for worst change, because that's equally interesting and I remember being highly amused by some of it.
Past MockRock sounds so much more alive, not gonna lie.
4:49 Kirby the pink beyblade was funny, but yeah, I actually prefer Kirby's new dash attack since it doesn't feel slow af, it feels like he keeps momentum now
Kirby meteor of death was funny
KIRBY! METEOR OF DEATH! is to this day one of my favorite quotes from all of youtubeland.
I don't know why, but I remember some of the lines from that video pretty well. Maybe the over the top delivery kinda did that, but that video stuck in my memory extremely well for some reason
You're too harsh on your old self. The video pretty much holds up. I think Marth/Lucina's Side-B is the one take that I disagree with: MkLeo in Smash4 got a lot of use out of Side-B. I don't think it's changed that much.
It's still crazy to me that there are no more patches for Ultimate. I keep expecting to hear about a new dlc character being added during Nintendo directs.
There's also a ton of questionable balance/broken moves left in the game
@@shanerpressley not a "ton" just some
I'd say Falcon is definitely still up B because tech checking was removed.
Bowser main here
I basically agree with the comment you wrote to Tierzoo back in the older vid about his dsmash (which basically means I would kinda disagree with what you said in this video, emphasis on the "kinda", though), mainly because, while fire breath became much better as well, it already had some really good uses in smash 4, whereas his dsmash went from completely outclassed to filling somewhat of a unique role in his kit: a great way to callout spotdodges, a super strong punish against people regrabbing the ledge, it can cover techs in place pretty nicely... You know, stuff that no other move in his kit does quite as well
i think i agree with jrs damage zones being his best change in ult..... however that last patch made spinout into a warcrime
In my region we have a Morton that massacres with spinout long before the patch. It's scary that he's one of our strongest players lol
Hearing the difference between the old "announcer" voice and the "I don't drink coffee anymore" voice keeps making me laugh 😂
For Yoshi I might go with the changes to his shield? In Smash 4 his shield came out frame 2 rather than frame 1, and his vastly reduced traction also gives him a much better OOS game. Another good candidate would be Egg Throw bouncing on the ground, giving it extra utility in neutral (and it also has more hitlag making followups a lot more viable, including setups into fair spike)
Shield falls under the “universal” category. I think traction does too since most of the cast has similar or vastly better traction compared to previous iterations
@@chordalharmony True about traction, but the shield was a character-specific change.
@@Antimony96 Weren’t they universally changed to frame 1?
Always look forward to a new mock rock video :)
I get that pickings are INCREDIBLY slim for bayo since pretty much nothing about her was buffed, but jab being a kill move doesn't really matter since in pretty much every scenario you're better off going for a forward throw. I'd say her best change is PROBABLY the bigger hitbox on witch time, which can let her deal with projectiles more, which is something she struggles with, but that doesn't make up for that move being nerfed from being the best counter in the smash history to just an honestly not good move so idk. Also, for mii brawler, his best change might be up air, considering it can now combo into itself, into other moves, ladder with platforms, and also true combo from rising into thrust uppercut for a kill confirm which is honestly busted.
Man the nostalgia….
Other than your old "announcer voice" the video legit holds up really well. 10/10
God, I am so glad MockRock changed his delivery style.
The resulting juxtaposition from having both the old and new in these types of videos makes the older delivery style even more jarring.
I wish he used a medium between both because the other one has a ton of personality and makes him sound cooler, just toned down a bit lol
Pyra gets a down air with 5 hit boxes that all spike with equal power.
Steve gets a command grab that moves.
Pit still can’t get N-air to work right.
And Mythra's nair works well with a landing hitbox. :p
@@mathunit1 And Byleth’s
Dedede feels like a Rivals of aether character, but without the mobility.
How so? Not disagreeing, I just also play Dedede and rivals so I'm curious.
@@erikhepp4144 he has moves that interact with each other and stage control through that, that's how I see rivals character design.
It's not Rivals heavy character design otherwise he would have mobility through some of his options, maybe having super jump be a charge input that has more air speed, or a hammer spin when Gordow is out. Replacing side special, or jet hammer making him rush forward when charging that can also hit gordow for a heavier launch.
I used spirits to make him as fast as possible with the combo: super sonic spirit (a three slot spirit with speed up) and three speed up secondarys, then gave the enemy equal power spirits and he feels amazing to play
Just thought I would say that so you could add that mobility to him
@@dextra_24703 yeah that makes sense. Gordo sticking to stage, having different angles, interacting with his inhale, and being able to catch it all feels rivals-esque. That stronger gordo throw idea is really cool and would be great for mixups. Also yeah replacing jet hammer with some sort of burst option would amazing but the big guy's still a blast to play.
I still enjoy the way old MockRock talks!
Pretty funny to see Modern MockRock react to Classic MockRock. When is MockRock Generations coming out?
To be fair, Mewtwo f-tilt also got buffed recently
12:00
"I know where this is going" - The person who created the video he's currently watching
8:57 I would still say down smash is a good choice. I haven't watched a lot of tourney footage lately so I don't know how it is at top level but I main Bowser, and it kills by the ledge barely later than forward smash while having barely half the startup. It's my go to when someone leaves themselves open while they're cornered. It also gives him a very devastating parry punish against moves where forward smash would still be too slow even with a parry.
I quite enjoyed this. Was cool to see what characters benefitted from Ultimate
Just a heads up, you counted the universal change to jumpsquats as snake's best change; almost everyone got that treatment, including most heavyweights.
It is a little confusing, but I'm pretty sure the implication was that he was keeping Nikita as his "official" answer for the best change, and the jumpsquat mention was more because it was just so impactful that he had to at least mention it. (The section was at 20:21 if you wanted to rewatch it.)
As an ex meta knight main mach tornado was more useful in smash 4 cause it did an insane amount of damage (23% fresh) especially for him so dash attack nado put you in dash attack ladder range.
Where in ultimate its just another Nair to kill offstage and he lost a lot of his damage.
I think his best buff is down b going further
For Rosa, if you say for anything for Rosa herself in her moveset, I say her nair got better. It's lag got changed a bit to be have faster end lag, has good combo potential and potential kill with Fair and Up Smash.
I'm not quite sure what to think of nair, I know a lot of prominent Rosalina players were really unhappy with it earlier on. After being buffed and having more time to develop, I'm not sure if that's still the general consensus, but I'd have to think it's at least a big tradeoff rather than a strict improvement like Luma spawning faster.
Ryu had special cancelling in Smash 4, right? Ryu wasn't able to special cancel aerials, but he still had special cancelling
I don’t know if this counts as an ultimate engine thing, but double jump cancel zair (DJCZ) for Lucas was huge and probably beats out forward tilt
That’s technically an engine change, but since Lucas is the only character to legitimately benefit from it (Ness and Mewtwo can double jump cancel item toss thanks to the same physics changes but that’s very niche), I’d still credit it as a buff to specifically him. I’d definitely consider Ftilt’s buffs more important though
Ftilt went from being extremely meh to a solid contender for the best Ftilt in the game, while Zair went from a core aspect of Lucas’ neutral to a core aspect of Lucas’ neutral that’s used differently as a neutral tool and also extends combos
A lot of "I watch my old content!" vids come off as lazy content recycling, but as usual MR turns it into a valuable way to discuss the game and analyze the changes over the course of the patch cycle/meta...while still cringing at his old content XD
For corrin, corrin I really don’t think is at this point nerfed from their smash 4 version due to buff dates, I just think they are balanced different now
I don't get the Mario one. The knockback on up B wasn't increased at all, neither was the angle changed. In fact, technically the knockback was LOWERED slightly, but it's such a small difference that it doesn't really matter. I think what you mean is Mario has an easier time carrying opponents up near the blast zone to begin with, because up B itself wasn't buffed.
Nah I think it was
Loved the vid, if you kept doing stuff like this I think it could really work with the format.