The TOP 10 SMASH MOVES (That Used To Suck)
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- Опубликовано: 15 дек 2021
- If you're going to make a Smash Ultimate tier list today, you need to give it a lot of thought; the game is REALLY well-balanced overall, and a big part of that comes from taking so many previously terrible moves and giving them much-needed upgrades. Today, let's take a look at 10 of the greatest glow ups ever seen in the series!
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Thanks for watching everyone! As mentioned, there were easily enough move candidates to make a sequel video to this if the demand is there. Let me know what you thought, as well as other moves you'd like to see covered! Also need to issue a minor correction for Luigi's dash attack: I knew that it had the same flaw in Smash 64 as well, but some comments have mentioned _that_ was the game where the hitbox was actually coded in, my mistake!
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Clouds blade beam should’ve been on here. It’s a crime that it’s not on here
Yoshi f-tilt. I mean it's by no means a broken move in Ultimate, but considering how utterly pathetic it was in previous games I consider it to be on my list
Yoshi ftilt is kind of a weird case because it was pretty good in 64. Good damage, low ending lag, + on shield and it could lead into combos (which other ftilts could not). In Melee, the move largely suffered from the new engine, having less consistent combo potential overall, in addition to having less range and naturally being way worse on shield. The move got a range buff in Brawl but it suffered from having lower damage and being in an engine where it could not reliably combo. Then S4 took that ftilt and gave it less damage, less range and way more ending lag.
Wonder if there might be a main channel mockrock video concerning which move a character needs reworked, rebalanced, desperately upgraded, overly nerfed- kind of combining the top 10 moves that should be deleted and this one.
would love another video of this! as someone who only knows the other smash games casually, it's super interesting to hear about all these technical things and compare them to ultimate
Pokemon trainer has had the biggest glow up in smash history. In Brawl they were the one of the most gimmicky, messy and nonfunctional characters in the series, to one of the best and interesting characters in Ultimate. Definitely the most improved character in the series.
Tbh Pokemon Change itself could be on this list.
@@vaderwalks Ivysaur could've been in here alone, if you're wondering about the character, the channel Big Yellow did a great video about him
Palutena improved the most from first appearance to Ultimate. She went from low tier to Top 5
The only character I think contested them in literal brokeness is Melee Kirby.
Pichu went from an absolute joke, to making a joke of us all.
i feel like zelda's din's fire or phantom slash should be one, especially phantom slash. It went from one of the worst projectiles in the game that had low health, a cooldown, and wasn't even that dangerous to one if not her best neutral tool
yeah i agree...tho i think they over did it
She could still cover ledge with it. Din's Fire has been bad though
Agreed
Dins fire is still bad. It's only usable because of the limited air dodge mechanic. Phantom slash is definitely better than before but is just ok. It's kind of mediocre in neutral being slow, inconsistent, short ranged, and committal. It realistically works as a ledge trap to make your opponent panic. Once you get a good feel for the move, you probably shouldn't be getting hit by it that often.
@@gameboyn64 it has a nuke sized hit box i am a zelda main and phantom is busted especially with the reverse phantom where u place it infront of you
I wonder how many people will mistakenly think you were charging Ivysaur's upsmash
You mean at 11:43? I've played a lot of Brawl, but... was that his down smash?
@@shiffpup2529 no, its just upsmash was so laggy that the uncharged version looks charged
@@shiffpup2529 He swings a vine at both sides of him. Another pretty bad move and, unfortunately, still continues being kinda useless in ultimate lol.
Wait that wasn't charged. God, how did PT function in Brawl.
@@castform7 it didn't
Bowser as a character has just gone nowhere but Uphill since his debut and I for one am very proud of him!
Considering Melee Bowser was his beginning, there was nowhere to go *but* up.
@@castform7*Melee and Brawl Bowser
I am so glad they changed him so that he doesn't just use head, shell and claw attacks. His leg moves are now some of the most satisfying moves in the game.
I think all of Ivysaur's moves could fit in this list.
That’s why this list ain’t ordered bucko.
Some I'd mention:
DK Hand Slap (Down B)
Pac-man Down-Air
Pokemon Trainer's Down-B
Zelda's Phantom
Shulk Back-Slash (now a recovery mixup, also Ultimate doesn't automatically turn characters around upon being hit, so that's a shadow-buff to Back Slash)
Mario Up-Smash
I'll vote for Peach bomber.
Bowser jr neutral b
@@minimik75 Wait really? I find that attack to be a bit useless because of all of the startup lag it has. It has a lot of ending lag too allowing fast characters to take advantage of him. Reflectors would have a field day with him as well
Yeah, Zelda Phantom went from the worst projectile to one of the best
Phantom use to be Sheik, which is good.
Mario Up-Smash was only bad in brawl never again
now you've got me interested in the top 10 worst smash moves that used to be good..
Falco Laser, for sure.
Marth throws
@@jonathanlgill Falco laser is still a good enough projectile, just nowhere near as crazy as it was in Melee and Brawl
Unless you are talking about the smash 4 incarnation
Both shines (thank goodness for that though), Mach Tornado, Bayo as a whole… even some less extreme cases like Shoryuken or Cloud up air. There’s a good amount.
@@guacodile2528 "Crazy" to "good enough" is still a considerable drop.
Well, Ness players did press the B button, but the stick moved too.
Not really in melee he had no good specials
The best you had was up special but that’s due to its recovery and a glitch with down smash
@@jmurray1110 *up smash, if you're referring to the yo-yo/jacket glitch.
@@justafan9206 yah but specifically yo-yo jacket PK thunder
@@jmurray1110 I know.
The dash attack bug with Luigi is actually in Smash 64, the Melee devs likely thought it was intentional and left it in. Unless Melee also had the same bug present in which case that’s kinda funny
This is true, he says that the final hit was mistakenly not triggered for the move in melee, but actually that was the case in 64, and the melee devs didnt notice and never even coded in a final hitbox. Therefor, melee luigis dash attack is TECHNICALLY working as intended. It was just intended to suck.
Yeah, a few people have pointed this out, I did know 64 and Melee both had that functionality but got my wires crossed on the hitbox coding. Pinned a correction to the video, thanks!
What you call "melee" is just a 13 month upgrade for the original smash, they named it "deluxe" like mario kart 8 deluxe is to the original mk8.
That is to say, it is normal to have a lot of elements reused between the original game and the deluxe version.
@@YounesLayachi code has been reused in every smash game lmao but yeah Melee was rushed as hell. I wonder what it would be like if they had the time to properly "finish" it.
@@YounesLayachi I'm pretty sure Melee is the only game that did not share code with it's previous game, since the formats of the consoles were entirely different, the 64 code was unusable for the GameCube so they had to redo it on the fly.
I think Jrs. Cannon ball deserves a slight nod. That move went from AWFUL, slow, punishable, committal option to a threat offstage & shield breaker. If anyone ever tells you in that matchup “just shield the cannon” do not listen to them. It has a second hit box while falling meaning past 1/2 charge shield just gets eaten, or it pokes and shoots you into the air. Oh ya and like I said offstage threat it kills if it lands and really limits your options to avoid it
It wen’t from awful, slow, punishable to awful, slow, a little less punishable
It got better but so did every other projectile in the game. In fact the cannonball is lagging behind even more now
9:33 You forgot to mention what the most impactful change was, the endlag. All of Kirby's dash attacks have had really punishable end lag in the past, and if you shield it you can get a giant punish. Because dash attack in ult crosses-up shields and only has a bit of endlag (it's techniqually -31 on shield but between the massive distance you get and a few other factors it's pretty safe, especially compared to most dash attacks) you get a super good move. Also, if you time the startup properly, you can catch roll away with the weak hit, which can combo. So basically instead of a completely useless move that did literally nothing, now you have a move that kills if you get hit, is safe on shield, and covers retreats in a way that puts you in a really bad spot. The killpower is really only a small part of the upgrades to the move.
Honorable mention: Snake’s jump.
I know this isn’t technically a move change, but jesus, 9 FRAMES of startup in Brawl?
Not serious about this btw
You know how it's rumored that Snake used to be a heavy in Brawl but was scaled back at the last second due to the fact that his hitboxes barely seem to match his animations and the fact that he has the 3rd highest weight in the game? I think I finally understand why he may have had the slowest jump squat (not even as a tie) in that game.
No offense but what would he have to talk about this lmao. Literally the only thing they made was make it faster and that was the case for EVERY smash ultimate character (snake was just the most predominant example)
@@TheTrueBrawler Yeah Snake was a heavy with dumb disjoints, but having to wait 1/6th of a second to LEAVE THE GROUND kinda blows. I personally never played Snake, but any time I’ve tried him out in training, all 2 times I’ve done that, it’s felt like the most clunky thing in basically any smash game.
@@guacodile2528 Fuck I forgot to say I was joking.
Well I’d say he’s just end up going on a tyrade about down air again
And I’m up for it let’s hope it’s in the sequel
Why isn’t Lucas PK Freeze here? It went from literal garbage in brawl in Smash 4 into one of the most devastating edgeguarding tools in Ultimate!
^^^^^
Probably for redundancy because of how similar it is to PK Flash. Though I’d argue that PK Freeze has been buffed more
Maybe its because compared to PK Flash, it is a better edge guard move since it freezes the opponent. In PK Flash's case, it isnt Ness's reliable kill move so its just useless a lot of the time
PK Freeze was a viable move at least even before Ultimate, most especially compared to PK Flash. It's not a bad move since it has a really fast charge time, but the rewards makes the move feel niche. The best u can do out of PK Freeze is following up after the enemy is frozen, notably going for PK Thunder 2. So it did have some use, hence why it doesn't suck when compared to PK Flash. While it did get better in Ultimate, when compared to how PK Flash is now, PK Freeze still feels niche since the explosion is a lot smaller than PK Flash and it barely goes high, so it's easily avoidable unless ur character has legit bad recovery
Always a good day with a MockRock upload, great videos to just rewatch or listen to in the background.
Yes
So true. I have listened to some of his videos like 5 times
@@jakeoloughlin8381 Same
I genuinely feel that Ultimate did an amazing job with characters. Even with my minor complaints about the game and its decisions, Ultimate is easily one of my favorite Smash games
Omg, when he said "I know most of my audience hasn't played brawl" I had never felt like more of a boomer in my life
4:20 it was smash 64 where it was coded in but not present. Then the devs saw that glitch and thought it was intentional, so they made it like that in melee as well.
Exactly.
Links up b is so good now and can actually be considered a recovery instead of link extremely awful up b in smash 64 just a honorable mention that should been included, also Luigi's dash attack in smash 64 is even worse than melees version.
Link's up B has been one of the weirdest moves throughout the series.
In Smash 64 it went practically no where, it might as well have made him lose height.
In Melee it traveled much further as well as the grounded version being a solid KO option and even semi spiking with the tip of the sword. Only real issue is if someone shields it by ledge he could fall off the stage into free fall.
In Brawl it went back to being awful. It covers more distance in the air then it did in 64 but it still barely goes anywhere.
Sm4sh is where I'd argue the move was at its best cause even though it's pretty much identical in Ultimate Sm4sh Link could do Jab Jab Up B as a KO confirm.
@@Rat_the_Renegade are you sure link can't grab ledge from grounded up B ? DK and koopa can, iirc
@@YounesLayachi I dont know Melee well enough to say but any video I've seen of it happening he doesn't.
I've only played Melee a couple times so.
8:43 I was waiting for a bit to see this on the list, and imo you didn't really do this move justice, so here are some reasons why Kirby's dash attack is truly insane in this game:
-As you said, the kill power has been kicked up a notch, killing Mario at around 100 at fd ledge with decent di. This is better than his bair, fair and nair.
-Comes out on frame 9, which is as fast as sh bair
-Lingers for forever, both sweetspot and sourspot
-2 frames a decent amount of characters, which combined with the first 2 points makes it very good for hitting opponents at ledge
-The sweetspot can be a combo ender out of fair and nair, and the sourspot can combo at mid percents itself
-Seemingly very random on shield, sometimes it crosses up sometimes it doesn't, making your opponent have to play a guessing game at times
This is a move I really enjoy using, maybe because it's easy to piss people off with lol
Looking at just Ivysaur made me remember just how much of an absolute glow up the entire Pokemon Trainer team got in Ultimate. These guys struggled back in the day.
it's carzy how a game with 89 characters (could say more because miis) is one of if not the most well balanced fighting games especially in comparison to it's roster size
of course its going to be if the game limits what you can do
"Luigi can really scare his opponent."
My, how the tables turned!
To me I think little macs side b got a brilliant change over the change over with it still having flaws but not putting you into special flaw is brilliant
But not getting it back when you get hit sucks. If you get knocked off stage while using it, good luck making it back.
@@gameboyn64 terry and his side b is what little macs should have been honestly
@@doggo4078 Forward special or back special?
@@LloydTheZephyrian huh?
Correction about Luigi's dash attack: it was Smash 64 where it had a final hitbox programmed in, but said hitbox never came out (Samus's up air also had this same problem in the same game). For some reason, the Melee version still doesn't have a finisher, and it's often speculated that the devs thought Luigi's dash attack was supposed to be like that because of how it was in 64. Of course, we don't know that for sure, and it could just be something related to Melee's rushed development for all we know.
Pika back air from Melee to Sm4sh was always ok, but in Ultimate, it is insane. From one of the most nerfed moves to one of the best moves
This second channel is so good. Keep up the lists, excited to see the sequel
Honestly a major complaint I have about Project M is that it doesn't actually try to improve moves like these, rather replace them so that they're identical to moves other fighters have. Pikachu's Bair is a good example, going from a unique spinning multihit to yet another strong back kick. It just sucks away each fighter's individuality IMO, with Bowser's fire breath even being one of those affected. In Project Plus he got a fireball projectile which I would have understood...if they didn't replace Charizard's fire breath too. Now Bowser has a generic projectile which I don't understand why they didn't just buff fire breath like Ultimate did.
Yeah but also that's a whole hell of a lot of programing and would be difficult for them to do
@@jstar3382 Replacing a move seems like more work than just buffing it in many cases, but I'm not a game dev so I don't know what I'm talking about.
I have just watched a bunch of your videos bro and I have to say that you speak so so well. Keep up the great work!
11:30 is a fantastic speech. Mockrock really sounded angry there.
I'd love to see a "worst moves that used to be great" list, because I think there are a lot of really interesting cases of.moves just getting completely gutted inbetween games
Rest might be a contender.
It's still decent, but before Smash 4 it was the terror that defined puff.
Smash 4 onwards, it has the dubious honor of being a move that's usually disadvantageous on kill, and often barely functions as a suicide move.
Fox's shine post Melee. It's pretty hard to use it as well as in Melee.
@@aprinnyonbreak1290You could use it to air stall in Brawl by spamming it, so it was definitely useful there, even if it was knowhere near as good as in Melee
I did NOT know Ness could combo off of PK Flash now, that’s awesome as hell. That clip you showed gave me chills.
Luigi dash attack is also missing the hit box in 64
Awesome video. I hope to see more in the future!
9:09 dont forget that it didnt stop at ledge so if you used it you would just shoot off
Im honestly surprised pk freeze wasn't on the list, it bassically had all the same problems as ness' pk flash and then in ultimate, pk freeze became one of his best edge guarding tools
to an extent but pk thunder is more consistent, same for bair but yea pk freeze got hella buffed and actually can be used offstage and kill
I'm amazed Phantom didn't make it here
Was one of the worst projectiles in Sm4sh (along with Din's Fire which...she also had) that now had tons of utility added to it, from neutral to KO's to even a combo move thanks to the new delay on the full charge
I think it's bc in 2 games in a row, was just ''i'm so bad that i will turn into a better character''
this channel is super super underrated. I hope you grow soon
Soaring axe kick is another great example. I went from a mediocre up B to one of the best out of shield options in the game.
None of this makes sense
It’s a decent OOS option, but there are certainly many way better up-B’s for that
@@charKT-7461 I mean it's basically cloud's but it kills more consistently and reliably.
I think a tier list like this, but with characters would be really interesting. How the smash team handled some characters in one game to a next is mind-boggling to me.
Luigi's soundtrack from Strikers playing during his part of the video was a nice touch!
Mario Strikers Charged has one of the most randomly great OSTs ever released
Really shocked that Jigglypuff's Sing wasn't mentioned. That move's amazing in Ultimate
Casual players be like:
The best use for it is to ledge cancel it but in melee it was actually better for that method since you could infinitely keep putting them to sleep by continually ledge canceling it. That was patched out in later installments thankfully.
Also, don't forget that Melee Kirby DA ran off ledges.
I love the intro, I’m new here so this looks very promising!
Why is no one talking about Link's remote bomb? That move is now a really good tool with a lot of creative uses while it was mediocre or just bad in every other smash game.
Related to another comment about PT’s glowups from brawl - ult, I think making a list of biggest glow ups in smash would actually be super cool.
I always enjoy watching these types of videos will doing the ironing. Keep up the great work
Luigi's dash attack was broken since Smash 64, it lacked the last hitbox, most likely an oversight, and it was kept like that in Melee because again probably an oversight.
For a guy with only 15,000 subscribers, your intro is absolutely stunning
Lol, RUclips has been my full time job for a couple years now, this is actually my second channel and the intro is the same between both of them, appreciate it though!
Some other moves that I would put would be:
-Ike's Up B
-Pikachu's Back Air
-Samus Up Air
-Wario's Dash Attack
-Zelda Down B
Zelda's down-b doesn't count bc in 2 games was just ''oh you are winning, i'll turn into a better character''
@@kimotokirby1601 Yeah that's true. I was mostly referring to the phantom
@@Kirby18 I know, that shit was awful.
I'm sooo glad to have a tool like Bowsers' flamebreath on his Kit
Hej Mockrock! I see some nice instruments there behind you. I would love to see a video of yours related to ultimates amazing and absurdly vast soundtrack. Top 10 remixes or witch game has the best menu and theme music etc. As a smash and music lover I would love that. Good video as always thx!
Mii Gunner's Stealth Burst used to be depressingly slow, but now its really quite fast. If you want to edgeguard without doing anything, this is your move.
It also left you in free fall, which is just sad. The amount of times I used this rather than up special is sad.
This is a cool video! Only thing I have to say is no pichu on this list?
This is always a fun concept to discuss. I think another thing that would be fun to discuss is how someone would change a character if they could, because everyone would (usually) have very different answers, which is really interesting
Yeah I agree, in my case I don't like much how characters like puff and roy are in ultimate, but that's something many people can argue about
I love the Christmas lights behind you
When you look at moves that still suck pls look at ddd forward smash it’s still missing damage values on some of the soft spots which because of their priority it means if you get touched by the whole attack you still take 0% if you are hit by any of the soft spots.
An actual move of Pac-man's that also went from garbage to great is his Dair. It was the only move I actively avoided using in smash4 because you would get absolutely nothing out of it but a small amount of damage cause it was impossible to connect all 4 hits on somebody. Then going to Ultimate where it's one of the most oppressive moves to use offstage ledgeguarding and will actually connect all hits
I'm surprised you didn't put dark pits silver bow on here. Maybe it wasn't as much of an improvement as some of the others on the list but having less lag, more damage and being a consistent edgeguarding tool is very nice
I still feel like Bowser should have his Neutral-B changed to a fireball based on the "Fire Shot" custom move instead, because besides potentially being more useful it would also differentiate him more from Charizard who basically has a worse version of the same move and simultaneously add a reference to one of his most iconic moves. He's only breathed a solid stream of fire occasionally, but even as far back as the original Super Mario Bros. he's been shooting those fireballs. They could even let you adjust the height of it before it straightens out by tilting up or down during the start-up to let you cover characters with low crouches or the air respectively while referencing how in a lot of his older 2D appearances he'd shoot the fireballs at one of three set heights.
mewtwo side b in the air in sm4sh IS my favorite smash move in the series as flying through the air with a reflector is fun to me
Speaking of up bs that were bad… Link from smash 64 vs link in ultimate’s up b is insane.
Highkey I loved Ivysaur in brawl, she was one of my very best ones back then lol. Moreso in PM but in vanilla brawl too
I think Pac-Man's grab is the most interesting. Kind of a sum up of his buffs as a whole
I actually liked Kirbys old dash attack because I used to really love fast movement and you can kinda small jump into a nair if you time it
Kinda shocked that Bowser's down smash wasn't here but no move I see on this list I disagree with so whatever.
Maybe for Round 2 it'll pop up
Luigi's dash attack was missing the final hitbox in Smash 64 too, they made the same mistake twice
For some weird reason, even despite getting him into elite smash, I frequently have problems with Vine Whip missing the ledge despite obviously hitting it. I try to switch to the Zard to get back, but I hate having to do that.
Rivals of aether kirby is proof of concept of how creative kirb's moveset could be
Just sucks that vine whip just doesn't grab the ledge sometimes
Even though Robins Arcfire was buffed in an update, i believe it went from a underwhelming move to one of robins best moves in many situations and i find myself able to do alot with it now than ever before, especially shenanigans at ledge
and arcthunder went from a crazy confirm to basically useless
@@jstar3382 I miss the old Arcthunder
I genuinely can't believe how much that range buff on Arcfire in 6.0.0 improved the move. It's got a lot more application for covering your recovery or as a full stage neutral tool, on top of its absurd combo ability it's always had. Though it is still a really committal attack, especially now that you can just swat away the fireball unlike in Smash 4.
Just a shame it came at the cost of gutting Arcthunder. You can still get some stuff off it, but it's way stricter and requires very tight spacing so that you can chase after it, which is a far cry from basically being half of Robin's gameplan in 4, especially with his crazy Down Throw. At least its damage became absolutely monstrous and still a useful neutral tool, but even the buffs to Thoron really don't make up for losing one of Robin's best kill setups.
I thought switching pokemon (idk what its called) would show up tbh, if it were faster and in the air it wouldn't have helped ivysaur's up-b but it would've meant you didn't have to use it as much
If we are basing this on release ultimate then pichu's ftilt would be up there
Great video
If they wanted to give DK a dash kick, they could've just used the DK64 attack.
Great 👍 video. I have two on the top of my head Mega Man leaf shield from Smash 4 to ultimate back then very slow start up and shooting with it did barely any protection in ultimate yeah good luck getting around it faster start up anti air better protect and can get some combos another one Lucario down B even though it would be nice to give it something else, but back in Brawl - smash 4 it was slow to activate and when it did it would take a long time for the hit box to come out and even if the opponent used a laggy move they can still put a shield or jump out of the way. In ultimate it slowdowns the opponent the hitbox comes out faster and it can auto within a certain distance and same with projectiles
I'm surprised you didn't talk about Dark Pit's Silver Bow
Sonic’s Homing Attack could definitely be on here. Homing Attack was a pretty mediocre move in Brawl/Smash 4 that you saw only occasionally as a landing mix up or for edgeguarding, but it’s now a core tool in his kit.
Having its startup and endlag shaved off, combined with better lock on, more damage, and better KB growth allows it to be used as a combo starter, burst option, edgeguarding tool, ledge option, cross-up, and even straight up kill move.
I always knew snakes side b was bad in Brawl but I have the best memories making the rule that my friends and I could only use that move.
0:57 I always thought it was “PK Thrust” because it sounds like ness is saying PK Thrust
The coding error for Luigi's dash attack was in 64, not Melee. The final hitbox just doesn't exist at all in Melee, likely due to the devs thinking the 64 error was deliberate.
The first move that I thought of when watching the first minute of the video was sing (Jigglypuff). Can’t wait to see if it gets on!
7:27 i feel old now. My first smash game was melee
Bowser's command grab comes to mind
So excited for this
4:13 it was in Smash 64 too, they messed up this move, twice
Raptor boost could definitely be on this list, one of the most buffed moves in ultimate. It doesn't kill life before but its way faster and has a lot of combo potential now.
I never thought I’d see people use sing on puff but I love it
How do you usually find these clips of these specific situations like ness combos with pk flash or Luigi dash attack kill?
4:25 This was also the case in Smash 64.
I'm going in expecting Arm Rotor from this
Wrong
Not true on Luigi's dash attack: the coding issue was in 64 where if you change one piece of code the final hitbox appears; the lack of final hitbox was mistakenly believed to be intentional by some of the melee Dev team which is why it ended up how it did in melee, and then it was finally fixed in brawl
It's amusing to see how many buffs PM did first in almost the exact same way...but still better than ultimate. Like dk's da rolling off ledges.
Can you do an updated Best of EVERY Move post dlc video?
Man watching smash 4 knock out feel so slow now
Another move I think is an honourable mention is Sonic's Homing Attack. In Brawl and Smash 4, the move just straight-up sucked due to way too long start time (Plus _fixed_ start time) and unreliable targetting, plus an awkward amount of power leaving the move unable to start combos or kill, even at full charge. In Ultimate, the move got heavily buffed via being able to be released earlier and better tracking. The fully charged variant of the Homing Attack also gained a lot of kill power, making it a kill move, albeit a somewhat unreliable one, but for Sonic, who struggles to kill, that's still a welcome addition.
I think Pacman's grab definitely counts as a move. Grabs are part of your moveset after all.
You should make an competitive items tier list. Items that are from characters move sets I.e. diddy’s banana or Rob’s gyro
Iirc its smash 64 where the hitbox for luigi dash attack doesnt come out, melee just doesnt have one at all which could be the result of them seeing the final smash 64 version and just assuming that was how the move was intended to work
I'm all for a sequel, good stuff