Ranking EVERY Command Grab in Smash Ultimate
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2021
- Command grabs are often some of the more iconic attacks on Super Smash Bros. characters: Kirby and his Inhale, Ganondorf with Flame Choke, Bowser and Flying Slam, etc. They also tend to be very good, so a Command Grab Tier List that pits them all against each other should be...interesting, to say the least, and I'm sure everyone will agree with the list.
Enjoy!
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Thanks for watching!
#SuperSmashBros #Nintendo #SmashUltimate 
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Thanks for watching! A few clarifications/corrections:
1. Falcon Dive is actually the same startup frame as Dark Dive, in practice it tends to hit more attacks because of the sharper trajectory you can take but I got this wrong.
2. Another thing I got wrong: Byleth. That thing is definitely at least B tier and arguably A lol, took watching more Leo matches to become a true believer.
3. People on my Discord server and the comments here brought up Kazuya's Gates of Hell. Originally, I decided to exclude it from this list because I considered it to be more of an "extra grab" rather than a command grab, it uses the grab button which isn't standard for command grabs in Smash (they're generally triggered with the special button). However, the comments have made a good case for including it, so consider it to be an A tier thanks to its good damage output and excellent positioning, even working as an instant KO against some of the roster's weaker recoveries.
4. Ridley's Skewer was _technically_ changed in a balance patch to be coded as a hit grab, but this was most likely just a convenient way to stop Ridley teams from looping Skewer on opponents (hit grabs victims get the same short-term grab invulnerability as if they'd been grabbed normally). It clearly doesn't actually work like a grab.
5. I've seen a few comments asking about Little Mac's KO Punch, Ryu's charged Focus Attack, etc. Those are unblockable attacks, not command grabs, the concepts are somewhat similar but the opponent is never put into any kind of "grabbed" state.
These kinds of casual tier list videos that I can whip up in a couple days are fun to do, that's not all MockRockTalk is going to have on it but definitely expect more. Let me know what you thought of this one, as well as any future ones you'd be interested in seeing!
-Main channel: ruclips.net/user/mockrocktv
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Is this your main channel now
@@monkeyjosh339 No, why would you think that?
@@MrMockRock you said Mockrock was your second channel
@@monkeyjosh339 Oh, that was just a copy/paste error, fixed it, thanks!
@@MockRockTalk I love your other channel but this one is low key better
“COMMAND GRABS ARE BROKEN!” Screams my friend as I monkey flip across the stage for the 100th time in a row
switch monkey flip out with minecart and you have me vs my friends
Also my friend when I used Bowser side B a LOT
My brother calls it face fucking and warns everyone they will be face fucked at least once before the end of the game. Not inaccurate.
“I think we’re gonna put joker in F tier”
Words I never thought I’d hear
Fr
It also osnt even f teir, if you mess up the chain grab you can change it into this move and it is free damage even though you made a mistake. Yoshi's is A teir, I'm done with this shit bye. JK
I appreciate you putting in footage of all the moves as you talk about them. Too many tier list videos on youtube have me staring at these multicolored blocks for an hour.
That's because adding the footage makes these videos take like 5 times as long to produce haha! I agree that it improves them though, appreciate it.
He is not an average lazy youtuber
I’d like to see a tier list on out of shield options. I understand that this is a large umbrella of topics, so limiting the pool in some way would be necessary; maybe only talking about each character’s fastest or most effective oos option or only talking about up b or up smash oos. Any way you slice it, I’d like to hear your opinions on a lot of these options
Solid idea. You're right that a pure "out of shield tier list" video would be a huge pain even in this more casual format, but I do have a big Google doc of video ideas for this channel and one of them is for "The Top 10 Out Of Shield Options" or something similar. That one might actually show up reasonably quickly as a tie-in video for one of the MockRock entries I'm working on right now, no promises on that though.
K Rool Up B OOS is like S+ Tier for sure
gren oos f tier
If he didn’t limit it then he’d have to rank every up smash and up-b plus more 😂
G&W Up-B goes brrrrr
"You can really describe it like a lot of Incineroar's kit, right? It's a SUPER good move... but it's attached to Incineroar."
QFT
I have heard top players saying that if Incineroar was faster, hed be top tier. Him being my secondary, it would be a dream come true
@@alexanderwidmar2850 seems to be in teh same situation as zangief. devastating when he gets in range, but he has trouble getting in that range in the first place and is easily walled off
It's just like Melee DK, and Brawl and Smash 4 Ganondorf
After watching tons of fights from SkyJay, I personally think that Incineroar in the right hands is really a high tier character. His side B is only one of many great moves from his kit.
This aged well, and he didn’t even get buffed
After hearing you talk about “book”, I want a item tier list. Things like Jrs mech, diddys banana, peaches turnip pull (including bomb and Saturn), the bombs, book, and ~~the greatest projectile~~ peanut. (I mean I guess pacs items could count if you want too)
Good idea, added to the list I keep of potential videos!
Don’t forget Gyro
@@SeriousStriker I didn’t lol, just wanted to give some example of obvious and really vague ones (like peanut)
@@LilyWater84 I'll give you one more vague and rear, Sheik's granade
wario’s bike is always underrated and forgotten because it’s a heavy item, rly wish he still had tires tho
I would love to see a character items tier list. Stuff like rob’s gyro, or diddy’s banana.
What are all the options? Mega Man's blade, Peach's downB, Robin's sword/tomes, Banjo's grenade, Villager's tree, K. Rool's crown? I must be forgetting some but there aren't a ton.
@@BackpackBanjo Sword fighter Mii’s chakram, and possibly the belmont’s holy water? And also all of Pacman’s things, Snake’s grenade and box. All of the link’s bombs, wario’s bike
The S tier items are Links Bomb, diddys banana, Gyro, Galaxian and Bell from pacman, and apple, and key, the Hydrant, snakes grenade, anything i didn't list isn't necessarily bad, but i only listed S tier items
@@IIIISai I don’t think the hydrant is an item
@@matheustran8009 true
21:45 honestly, I agree with this placement for space pirate rush, though there's one extra thing you didn't bring up which contributes to that: if you do it in the air and then land during the aerial end lag animation, the game forces Ridley into the full grounded endlag animation on top of whatever endlag he already went through in the air. This generally makes it even more disadvantageous to whiff in a recovery scenario if you try to use it to get back on stage directly, even to the point that you can be forced into both the full aerial and grounded end lag at certain heights
I love Incineroar's Alolan Whip. It satisfies me in every possible way.
Nice name!
In... EVERY possible way?
Non' AchYourbusiness puuuuure satisfaction
@@nonachyourbusiness1164 Yes.
Gross
I’m so glad I waited to comment about misnaming falcon dive, I had everything typed and ready but wanted to wait just in case. Good catch, almost got me
👀
@@MockRockTalk you’re so fucking hot
Come on, man, don't undersell Nosferatu like that. There're a few details in its favor that got overlooked:
- Its hitbox is _huge_ and fully disjointed, making it harder to actively contest when it comes out. It actually has so much vertical reach that you can use it while you're below a platform and still catch people standing on them, keeping Robin out of range of getup attacks or other such options.
- The hitbox is active for 4 frames and Robin is fully intangible for those frames, making it even more reliable as a callout.
And the big one:
- The healing _scales_ if Robin has more damage than the opponent. You might get around 12% healed if the percents are even (or if Robin has less), but if Robin has, say, 100% more damage (like if they just took a stock), it heals 25% instead. And that's not even the cap--land it with a difference of 150% and it heals close to 40! Ever seen damage swings of 50 or more from a single move? Nos can do that.
All on a character whose projectiles and sword swings are very good at conditioning opponents to shield and leave themselves vulnerable to it. Or you can just confirm into it from Arcfire at any percent.
Sure, those are all valid points, but it's still ultimately inconsistent, and doesn't offer much advantage, both of which are traits I value really heavily for moves like this. Given the choice between a move that does 30% damage and sends the opponent nowhere, and one that does 5% and pops them into the air, I'd choose the latter almost every time, one good juggle sequence in a set can make up for that damage difference several times over. Robin's also a slow character who largely plays a keepaway game, not the archetype that gets the most use out of a command grab, and again, there's the lack of consistency, and consistency is a trait that I think is _super_ important. In the grand scheme of all Ultimate's moves, I'd still call Nosferatu pretty good, but idk how many other characters would choose to intentionally disable their command grab to get a book in their hand, whereas with a lot of Robin players that's a pretty established part of their gameplan.
Nos vs good mashers though. 0_0
@@ivrydice0954 Mashing actually doesn't help much against it! At lower percents it can get you out a little earlier, but if you have any significant amount of %, it's increasingly negligible.
@@Delzethin @ 0% you lose 5 frames of the grab's duration per input with a 155 frame duration
It takes 31 inputs to reduce that timer to zero. Which cuts down an 2 and a half second cutscene to about a 1/3 of a second. I think that counts as more than a little earlier, but what can really do about semantics.
At 120% it becomes impossible to mash out, but that also makes it heal less unless Robin is also at really high percents, so kind of a double edged sword.
yea
As a Byleth main i would argue (in all respect though) that its B tier
You can chain it into a down air, neutral air or up air (around 130% for a kill confirm)
And its a great jab lock follow-up
Agreed
Im pretty sure is S tier
Yeah there is no way king ddds suck is better than byleths tether. Even in context. It forces your opponent to avoid being above you in any context and it also has the longest recovery range of any other tether in the game. Kinda sounds like moth rock doesn’t play byleth
It's basically agreed as S tier now lol
Yeah fast forward a year, it's considered one of the best Up Bs in the game now lmao
I love Samus's tether grab. Ik its not a command grab, but it's utility when used as a pivot grab to counter a landing or how it rewards way better then it should
It’s a tether grab, which just means a regular grab with long range
18:56 looks like someone forgot the grappling hook's most important utility aspect- it can grab items! Definitely belongs in S tier. Great video apart from that!
Funi
@@HippityhoppityGnW thanks, I tried.
After summit everyone can agree Diddy’s monkey flip is a definite s tier
Or anyone who played other Smash games
Diddy Kong’s Monkey Flip is only bad before Brawl.
@ian is that because it didn’t exist
@@matthewbartlett3442 r/woooosh hype?
Something I'd mention is that minecart has not just armor, but also I frames on startup, making pinning down Steve incredibly hard, especially since running away to collect resources is so much of his gameplan
I feel like dedede's succ should be A tier. It's a REALLY strong tool looking at the content of his kit and you didn't mention (or maybe you didn't know, idk how many people know this) that it beats out most melee attacks. Because of this priority, it's a big tool in matchups with characters that have smaller hitboxes such as ken and fox and it's also a solid landing tool
I agree with you. I personalyl use succ and gordo almost together which heavily impacts the gameplay.
I feel like succ reflecting projectiles also needs to be taken into consideration. It makes it way harder to try to camp out dedede.
I gotta strongly disagree with you chief. It’s incredibly slow and committal due to the minimum amount of active frames, on top of already being on the kit of the big slow boi.
Ftilt and jab1 are far more consistent boxing options that are both faster and less committal (and can hit confirm into a kill for jab) against those kinds of matchups. It’s a far worse landing tool that the simple mixup of nair vs nothing, again, due to those minimum active frames.
Being able to contest huge projectiles (ie, kaboom, charge shot) is incredibly valuable for da D3, certainly, but it’s NOT that useful as a neutral option - or as a command grab, compared to some of these other behemoths.
@@drcreed6320
-"incredibly slow and committal" every command grab is either both of one of these
-"minimum amount of active frames" you saying this move doesn't last long???
-"Ftilt and jab1 are far more consistent boxing options" nobody's using their command grab to box, literally every command grab either has way too little range or is too slow to startup to be a boxing option, also attack normally beats grab anyway
-"far worse landing tool that the simple mixup of nair vs nothing" not true. it ignores shield, can be b reversed and again, beats most melee attacks, as opposed to nair which does none of those
-"Being able to contest huge projectiles (ie, kaboom, charge shot) is incredibly valuable for da D3, certainly, but it’s NOT that useful as a neutral option - or as a command grab, compared to some of these other behemoths." how the hell is a reflector that beats most melee attacks and invalidates shield not a good neutral option? Also i'm not even mentioning it's reflecting properties in my initial comment. I'm focusing a lot on the fact that it beats most melee attacks because this is a game where attack beats grab, but this grab beats many attacks, making it something a lotta characters have to really respect in a game where having a normal command grab is already really nice
@@waifu27 1) Bowser Slam is frame 6 and frame 52 on whiff; Wario Bite is frame 6 and ends frame 41 on whiff; D3 inhale is frame FOURTEEN, and frame SEVENTY-FOUR on whiff (if you don’t hold it AT ALL). Just to be clear, that means this move takes longer to end than Falcon Punch does to start, as a benchmark. If you do hold it, he gains an additional NINETEEN more frames of endlag on top of however long you hold it for.
2) Minimum amount of active frames refers to at what point you can end the move - to compare to Wario’s bite for example (you can hold down the button to extend the move, just like succ), this would be the minimum amount of time the move is active if you were to just tap the button for a single frame. D3’s comes out 8 frames slower and he is forced to remain in the move for MINIMUM 33 frames longer, given the exact same inputs for both characters. I don’t think there is a single character in the roster who is incapable of landing a solid punish within 33 frames.
3) Fair enough, I meant “spacing” instead of boxing - my B. But my point still stands. The whole POINT of a disjointed option is to beat out a hitbox - why would you go for a slow, committal (again, SEVENTY-FOUR minimum frames) option that is objectively worse than his other tools? Even if you are exclusively looking to beat out these contending melee hitboxes in the air, both fair and bair are both faster, stronger, and disjointed enough to be objectively superior as well. Given that succ is a poor spacing option, why do you keep bringing up its ability to contest with other melee attacks? Thats what a spacing option IS: an attack (typically either disjointed or very non-committal, and typically fast) that can contest space and apply pressure to your opponent. A SPACING tool. Succ is NOT a good spacing tool.
4) If you want to utilize a slow and reactable move as a landing option, be my guest. It’s not exactly a great movement option given his slow drift, so B-reversing/WB’ing isn’t too much of a factor here, though admittedly WB’ing it can shift him back enough that it can potentially be useful against someone trying to catch his landing. Personally, I prefer the standard landing mixup, as both nair-utilt->upair and dthrow-fair are great 50/50 strings that can frametrap most matchups at low/mid percents.
4) My point is that it’s INCREDIBLY slow on whiff - a good neutral option is literally defined by it’s level of punishability. You’ve mentioned that it “beats out attacks” - for a frame FOURTEEN move to beat out anything, it has to be a read. As a unique punish option that can catch like, a fox mashing stale DA, its fine; as a NEUTRAL option to pressure something like a ZSS zair or sheik ftilt, it is going to lose out every single time.
5) Just to round it off, NO character needs to respect D3 succ as a neutral option. It can be used as a surprise punish tool, or a defensive option in response to projectile pressure, but it will be punished handily if you throw it out while you are playing neutral.
I'd love for you to make one of these for chargeable specials. You know, moves that have varying size and power or even function depending on how long you charge them. Classics like Samus Charge Shot, Mewtwo Shadow Ball, Donkey Kong Giant Punch, as well as others like Mario FLUDD, PAC-MAN Bonus Fruit, and even including moves that can't hold their charge like Sephiroth Flare, Little Mac Straight Lunge, or King Dedede Jet Hammer. There might be a lot of these, so I understand if you don't want to, but I think it's worth a go.
Wish granted but only for projectiles
@@itsyaboychipsahoy.7989 I saw it. Makes sense to limit it to that. I'd like to see the physical variant some time.
R O L L O U T
Incin main here, glad he's S tier in SOMETHING
If his initial dash and run speed were even just average and he could chose whether or not to do the second part of up b (like Cloud) he would probably be high tier.
He's incredibly strong just absolutely crippled by his speed.
@@Saskaruto16 slowest ground speed in the game BAYBEEE (even tho he's actually a pretty fast pokemon faster than Pichu if you look at stats :/)
@@SuperSilver7591 It really doesn't make any sense.
It's like they tried to make Zangief but didn't understand why Zangief works in SF and that it won't work for Incineroar.
He needs to be just fast enough that with good positioning he can destroy you off of a neutral read with his command grab which forces you to keep moving and get hit by his attacks. Then it ends up with you retreating into bad positions he can punish or rushing him down which plays into his game.
That doesn't work if you just platform camp and run away because he's too slow to catch you for doing it.
I also don't get why they made him so small. He's supposed to be 5'11 (bigger than Charizard) and I get why they made Charizard larger but Incineroar would actually benefit from being larger because he's already combo food so the larger hitboxes would just be helpful.
With the online he would definitely be obnoxious if he got hella buffed, but offline he's useless and that's what they should be balancing for (because they should have put in rollback netcode to start with).
@@Saskaruto16 5 FOOT ELEVEN????? IM TALLER THAN THAT GUY AND I THOUGHT HE WAS LIKE 6 FOOT 6 OR SMTH
fun fact: incin alolan whip is BROKEN in amiibo. Incins trained to spam side B continuously win almost everytime, because the AI tends to not respond to the startup of the move properly and just stay there
Your intro is so satisfying to watch bro. You clearly spent many hours perfecting that sound effect timing
i really loved Lucarios air grab in PM cuz it sends you down which imo is more hype than a spike. I wish we could see more moves like that. Byleth has that and has great feel to it
you have been one of my favorites creators for since smash 4 and when I heard you were making another chanel I was super excited and it's been a bit I can definitely say this channel doesn't disappoint in the slightest
Thank you, it's been fun so far!
Enjoy these kinds of videos a lot but I'm also happy to hear about the best and worst of moves list, I was gonna ask if there'd be updates due to balance patches & DLC
Yeah he said he would do that on his Twitter a while ago
@@lemonlime8949 ah, I deleted my Twitter last month
great video! you're one of my favorite creators to just sit down and watch, and I often find myself rewatching old videos cuz they're so well made haha.
Also ranking comeback mechanics could be cool. I thought maybe a video on passives could be cool too, but what does and doesn’t count as passive gets tricky. Like I’d float a passive? Or an ability? Self damage? Foresight? Super Specials? Those are all very different and serve very different purposes
Hey Mockrock, I got a video Idea. How about the evolution of recoveries in smash history, and if it is healthier or not to have such good recoveries like we do in ultimate.
Anyways, great video!
They're too good in ultimate imo
I think even the evolution of moves, movesets, and moveset synergy would be an interesting, although extremely time intensive video, but it would be fun to expand on the power creep of newer characters and looking at simply the way moves have singularly increased in viability on there own from game to game and yet still are outclassed by what simply seems to be the other more viable moves due to having priority in some way or another.
Something I like to point to is Shiek Bouncing fish vs ZSS Flip jump, although being only separated in release by one game, they both show clear options for offense and defense yet Flip jump gets point to often as the better move if not one of the best moves.
More Ex
- Samus bombs/missles vs Snake C4/grenades
- Every Sonic B move vs Puff Rollout
- the entirety of the PT moveset vs the rest of the cast
- Sephiroths Nair vs Wario, Dedede, Incineroar nair
- Mythra Nair vs Cloud, Shulk, Hero, Ike Nair
- Minecraft Steve Block vs Pac Hydrant, Villager Tree,
Literally so many broken moves in this game, outright utility in some of these moves in comparison to some their older counterparts makes you wonder how every other character isn't top tier
@@morgydee You realise bouncing fish didn't exist until smash 4 right
I think a better example is Ike neutral b, which was meant to be a compromise on a projectile since sakurai thought giving a swordie a projectile would be unbalanced, compared to blade beam.
@@sheridan5175 I didnt explicitly mention it, but I guess it's necessary but I was kinda just talking about the characters in Ultimate seeing as some characters/moves where Revamped from their last iterations, or kept similar to their Sm4sh counterparts if not near identical, I know said the thing abt how from game to game newer characters gain priority, but in that case I was comparing the two due to similar moves and less so because one move came before the other, and more so because the newer characters move is generally regarded as more useful
@@morgydee I think that is too broad of a topic to get in a single video.
Wario’s Chomp should be S all the reasons you said and the fact eating certain projectiles reduces the timer for his waft(best move). Especially eating his bike, which he can spawn infinitely, also speeds up the charge on his waft.
25:13 I get that Robin's book isn't an amazing item, but it actually complements their kit pretty well. Book into thoron is a staple kill confirm for Robin mains which is both quick and can combo into moves/kill confirms up to super high percent
Another great utility is the physics of books
Compared to other characters' items they have a much higher bounce which allows for tome dribbling (short hop dthrow tome aerial) which can wall out opponents really well
Additionally the fact that they bounce off of shield allows for really powerful shield pressure that doesn't exist with items like turnip or gyro because they disappear on shield
I remember the books killing in tr4sh like 100% damage.
I honestly think this series is really interesting, hearing you explain many moves with a likeness is a lot more fun than it seems especially with your great explanation as to why they belong in their tiers. As usual very good content.
Since you've already covered anti Projectile moves, may I suggest projectile moves as a tierlist? I'm honestly really interested how'd you rank them.
WAAAAAAY TOO MANY you have no idea what this game considers a projectile
Stuff like "falco's up throw laser" should be on the list lmao
Yeah there are something like 200 moves with projectiles in this game. Even if you exclude some of the less "projectile-y" ones (like the stars that appear from Yoshi's down-B or really short-ranged ones in general), the video would still be like an hour if he spent only 20 seconds on each one.
tbh love to listen to this everyday
literally rewatch most of the tier lost vids
id love to see this as a podcast
really enjoyable video! i know you put a disclaimer about clearly not being able to label every move's use, but i feel like mentioning nosferatu's increased healing on a backwards opponent may have been able to bump it up, but that doesn't really matter. i'll keep looking forward to videos on both MockRock and MockRockTalk!
I'd love to see a Smash DLC preferences tier list, just to see your thoughts there.
Maybe after DLC winds down
@@MockRockTalk ah ok
Really cool video. I love the tier lists and love the way you break the moves down. One thing that would be really cool but would probably need to be broken down or something would be a tier list of every move based on how good it is for the game (probably more casually focused but also considering the viewer, competitive, pretty much any way smash is enjoyed). Maybe you good do how good each character is for the game including stuff like fun and balance
Love this new kind of content. Keep up the great work!
Good video as always.
My only change is swapping Blunderbuss & Nosferatu placements for reasons not explained.
-Blunderbuss has much more free aerial control and the ability to drop through platforms.
Combined with a normal shot Kannonball, it's an oddly decent mix-up to continue pressure in general advantage, along with plats, not just by the ledge.
The same can be said for its use as an off-stage edge-guarding tool/kamikaze tool. It has a strangely good utility that's only held back by needing a Kannonball out.
-Successfully hitting Nosferatu puts Robin in Free-Fall.
This was also the case in Sm4sh and is probably an oversight since Ult fixed this with every other non-recovery move with this property. But regardless, you're basically locked out of using this already niche move off-stage.
The Little Mac of command grabs.
I don't usually watch tier lists but yours are very well made and super entertaining. You really understand the game and I learn a lot !
Hey thanks, appreciate it! More coming, I don't want this to just be a tier list channel but they're fun to make and people seem to like them.
Great video. Solid ranking through and through, no arguments here really.
Kazuya’s rage command grab is easier to land because you can do the shoryuken input into it, allowing you to close the distance more safely on the ground. You can’t normally do that, since it would comes out as a different move.
Being forthcoming about your production schedule and cross promotion of videos makes me more engaged and likely to watch those. I like a transparent RUclipsr
MKLeo has recently shown how valuable Byleth Up B is for edgeguarding and kill setups, I'd say it's probably S tier or minimum A tier at this point. Like it literally invalidates so many characters' recoveries it's pretty insane. At the time this video was made I probably would've agreed with your placement though
Absolutely not. Byleth's Up-B is not S Tier.
I can agree that Byleth's Up-B is definitely not in the same tier as Nosferatu but that move is top of B Tier at max. Not everyone knows how to use Byleth's Up Special like arguably the best player in the world can and there's the fact that you have to factor in counterplay which there is plenty of for certain characters. That and I find it very hard to believe that Buster Wolf is in a lower tier than Sword of the Creator.
Alolan Whip, Bowser Bomb, Buster Wolf, Suplex, Confusion, etc are all better than Sword of the Creator.
Nice video, I think I would agree with all the placements.
It’s also really impressive how fluently you speak without a script. One thing you got kind of wrong was that opponents can mash out of space pirate rush for a long time. How it really works is if your percent is lower than ridleys, you can mash out easily, and if it’s higher than ridleys, you pretty much cannot mash out. I think this makes it more reliable at earlier percents and perhaps better than isabelles? Not that much though.
I demand a tier list that has never been done but everyone craves it...they just don't know it yet. A tier list of smash characters crawling animations and a tier list of all the get up attacks/ledge attacks!
I didn't know you could shield Isabelle's fishing rod. That's nice to know lol
The part where you can "reflect" projectiles was left out of the Kirby inhale section, although I don't blame you. Only around 8 projectiles in the game can be shot back out after being sucked up, lol
The projectiles that can do really good damage and cover a lot of range when spat back out, though, which can make it a situationally good option
There's also the minor HP heal, both rather negligible, great vid regardless
Late fun fact about brawler: I don't know if this has been patched but there was a glitch where if you suicide with suplex against lucina or bayonetta in a very specific way the brawler will lose 2 stocks. I have no idea how it works I just know you do it by grabbing them off the ledge or right after they release or soemthing.
i am once again attempting to give your videos an algorithm boost because you deserve it
As a brawler main, I agree completely with your placement of the brawler grabs. There is a reason why almost no one runs counter throw at high level.
I'd bump Falcon's up to S. The hitbox is absolutely massive, it can be reversed and catch grounded opponents while landing, kills center stage fairly early for a command grab, and his air/fall speed and hurtbox shift makes it surprisingly hard to actually punish on whiff since he can mix up his movement while falling so easily. For reference, Diddy's monkey flip grab doesn't kill most characters until around 150% at the very edge of the stage, and some even survive that. I've been killed as a middle weight by Falcon up B center stage at like 140%. Similar to Diddy, Falcon is a character that can pressure you into holding shield with just his threatening speed and combo potential, so having an option like that is insanely strong, especially at kill % where he can kill you with stray aerials just as easily (which Diddy also cannot).
I'm pretty sure that when Wario uses his chomp out also charges his waft a little bit
It definitely does that for projectiles
Edit: I was right about everything and I gotta response from Mr mockrock himself. I am a God x3
Yeah, Wario’s Chomp extends his lead in three different ways: damaging the opponent, healing himself, and charging his waft.
It doesn’t do an excessive amount of any of those, but the fact that they *all* happen together makes it very worthwhile to land.
@@johnjekyllson28 True, I'm deliberately not trying to cover every tiny detail of every move in this more casual format, and I realistically don't know if Chomp usually adds enough to the Waft charge over the course of a match to be _that_ impactful, but worth noting.
@@MockRockTalk I'm kinda glad I was right and I didn't make a fool outta myself cuz imo that's a really cool mechanic so I thought you'd mention it. (I also feel so much joy getting responses from the creators of the videos I watch so thank you for my daily serotonin)
In connection with the zoner video I'd be interested in seeing how the projectiles stack up against each other :D
Perhaps a tier list for spikes? Not sure if that's a "creative" tier list, since a good amount of the cast just does the typical two leg stomp, but there are some weird ones like King K. Rool's Back Air, some Specials, and even Luigi's Taunt that can be considered. Also, great video overall!
fun fact about dark dive: In a location with walls or with an opponent that is good at techs and wants to end you with something flashy instead of effective, you can repeatedly chain the dark dive into another dark dive if you can catch them in the right place. Did that as a stage recovery from nearly off the screen and made it back up to the omega platform that way. The other guy never learned until he failed to tech off the stage. Definitely not something common though.
17:48
personally i LOVE the animation for Mii Brawlers Suplex!
Since its supposed to be based off a traditional wrestling suplex AND its purposely simple(considering its on a Mii Fighter), obviously its not going to be AS flashy as other wrestling command grabs.
but its just screams "Yep. You're comin wit me."
I like how they kind of float in the air right before just SOARING into the ground/blastzone
This is a weird request but I think Zairs are a really cool unique attack that would make an interesting tier list. Since there aren't many of them it would be easier to rank than some other broader topics but ultimately it is just a cool group of moves that I don't think get enough attention.
Love how specific your intros are
Byleths up b makes her nearly impossible to challenge her making a low recovery, and it's the best tether recovery in the game. Feel like at least C. Mad about Ridley too but you make a good point that it's much more situational than the other command grabs.
I agree that Byleth probably has the best overall tether recovery, but all tether recoveries are inherently exploitable to some degree, generally speaking if I were choosing a recovery style for my character I wouldn't opt for one. Also, did you mean "at least B?" Because C is where I already put it haha
@@MockRockTalk Yeah, i gotta say, great list overall, but i'd also put Byleths Up-B into atleast B-Tier. It may not be a "true" command grab, since it can be shielded, but it's still pretty good. Probably one of Byleths best moves, if not the best. It's a long tether recovery, an OOS option, can be used as anti-air tool, to start or extend combos, and it can kill at higher %, since it becomes not only a strong spike, but if i'm not completely mistaken, an untechable one at that. So i'd put it atleast in B. But still a good list, love your videos, especially the rankings. Great work, MockRock! 👍
@@Lucifer-hq5pe I agree, I think it's one of Byleth's best moves. A little weird and different from conventional solid moves like Nair, but still very useful and strong. I think tether recoveries can be good, since you can play around with tether cancel and mix up the timing; also it makes it just dangerous enough to go edgeguard Byleth when they're recovering low so that not everyone will try their luck. B tier for me
@@Rhaemos Agree. I've had games where someone tried to edgeguard me and got pulled to his doom by the Up-B instead. Definitely a good move.
As a K Rool main I disagree with the placement in F. It’s an integral part of K Rool’s ledge trapping game as you can maintain it for a long time and drop through the platform to react to the enemy’s getup option. It also kills at like 120 off the ledge.
I think Kazuya's rage drive (100%+ Command grab) does help to scare your opponents. It probably not as effective against top players but a little helps.
Also I would be interested if you focus on custom moves for a video. 👀
Bruh wtf. I literally remembered your chann and decided to check and saw you hadn't uploaded seconds before you did. What are the odds lol
On Incineroar, ya left out how in the air or on platforms, the back body drop on his forward special can also be use as a kill move as it can take advantage of the vertical blast zone. It may not be as strong as his standard up throw, but it's another option for platforms if a normal grab wouldn't reach and for the sake of mix ups. Plus, if you're above and/or away from the platform or high up in an Omega stage, you then have an aerial grab option. Just another reason why his Irish Whip is such a fantastic move.
This video and the one on counters is so refreshing since I can see a Smash Vid where Incineroar is actually on S tier lol
What also makes Inciniroar's Alolan Whip great is the 11.99% heavy armour during some frames. The move will just heavy armour through moves that deals less than 11.99%, which makes it great for grabbing through attacks or edgeguards
23:12 doesn't Wario get waft faster when he eats projectiles?
Yeah I don't know he knew but it's a pretty small amount of time
Yes but it's almost unnoticeable
He does.
It cuts a second & a half off.
@@MrGameguyC per bite?
Also works on players and bike, which is dangerous as heck of you let him keep getting away with Chomp. He'll get more wafts out which means less stocks for you...
You could do casual character discussions where you look at gameplay and placings from good players and talk about their place in the meta
id be super interest in a tier list of the biggest buffed or nerfed moves from previous games coming into ultimate
This was great. Please make more
i'd love to see a tether recovery tier list
every command grab that works in the air is automatically better than any grounded ones because you can play offensive RPS on landing. this is an extremely strong ability, especially in platform fighters
Joker up b is really good lol
It kills off the top and resets juggle scenarios instantly, which is joker's game plan without arsene.
Idk if this would make much difference in the tier placing, but Lucario's best kill confirm is into his command grab out of aura sphere charge and it kills REALLY early if you have enough aura. It takes practice, but you instant charge cancel aura sphere and immediately side-b. It takes practice to get the timing, but a good lucario player can get it consistently
By instant charge cancel, do you mean dropping shield and then using side-B? Because I’m pretty sure that’s not a true kill confirm. If you’re talking about double jumping cancelling, then yeah you’re right.
@@jonathangough5331 sort of. If you tap the shield button for 4 frames or less, you can cancel a move without the shield ever actually coming out. A lot harder to do on gamecube controllers bc of the analog buttons
Thanks for the great video!
id like to see a tier list of what moves feel the most dlc
(ewgf sss tier lol)
Bowser side b is literally the only reason my bowser is in elit smash
Can you do a recovery tier list for all fighters?
Already in my ideas document. Does that mean I know if/when it'll actually get made? No, but on the table for sure.
I pretty much agree with most of the placements, except for the Byleth and Joker ones that imo should both be bumped up a tier
What I like about being a Robin main is that every time I see one of these videos I make a bet with myself to see how low people put him
You can stop after shooting the cannon ball out for krool, put the blunderbuss away entirely and pull it back out for several frames and only have the vacuum. And it's very consistent
One thing I do with with krool blunderbuss is shoot the cannon bal and follow it. If the opponent is shielding just jump and suck( so the cannon ball can despawn) and in most cases grab them. Very effective against certain situations. Off stage while I'm edgegaurding I'll use it to try to grab opponents as they fall with me, like d3 and Kirby.
It's always a good day when MockRock uploads.
An underrated factor about inhale is how good it is on defense. I can’t tell you how many times I’ve caught moves like Falcon Kick lacking. If a move doesn’t have a disjointed hitbox, Inhale will most likely beat it.
Oh this is *such* an awesome idea!
Minecart lets Steve recover from the below of the screen, instant S tier.
rewatching bc mockrock is fun to relisten to in the background, but honestly i feel like snakes c4 should be included as a command grab: it beat shield and works in a lot of the same contexts a command grab would, allowing for an aggressive landing or platform pressure
I would honestly put Byleth's command grab over literally every one of the moves you put in B tier.
I think it's really busted. It builds percent, can kill confirm, edgeguards, anti-edgeguards, lets Byleth hang out offstage edgeguarding longer by latching onto the stage itself...
I would honestly like to hear you talk about ledge trumping as a mechanic. How it compares to edge hogging or sm4sh's ledge trumping, whether it is good or bad game design, ways in which it could be polished, etc.
I understand that this is a very subjective and sort of "abstract" topic to make a video about, certainly less concise than plain old tier list. However, nobody, and I mean absolutely nobody who ever talks about smash design mentions ledge trumping. It is always defaulted to having edge hogging or not, when imo trumping by itself is quite an interesting mechanic to explore.
Only thing about monkey flip is if you act too early, the kick will come out and might screw your recovery. Or if you grab someone midair, you cant recover after.
Thanks for making this kind of video.
I dun recall if you mentioned in throughout your video anywhere, but judging based on your ranking of command grabs, you don't consider all competitive formats right? Just Singles? It's a given if so, and that's fine of course. It's just that, when you do consider both Singles and Doubles, then command grabs become just as crucial as regular directional throws as well. But some of them are extra-spicy.
For example, Ganon not having intangible frames during a successful Flame Choke would usually make it terrible in Doubles because Doubles-reasons, but possessing an armor window does make it better than a vulnerable command grab. AKA, its crowd-control ability is manageable. In other words, their defensive utility are either very safe or very unsafe depending on which command grab it is.
Though, for Lucario and Yoshi, I'd like to note:
~Lucario~
-Force Palm's grab alone is subpar. The flame if grab whiffs is there to be a spotdodge-buster, but even then.. it can be shielded with the right timing to avoid the grab with the same spotdodge, and that finishes your high note for Lucario. Though, I'd say that it's better than the middle.
-The jostle change buffing its succession makes it much more respectable now. You can input SideB while airborne upon landing and can get notable cross-ups in very tight situations that otherwise warrant fear factor while holding shield. And even though it is possible to mash out of it on paper, it requires inhuman mash speed to escape, and impossible to mash after ~50% for both parties. The ability to mash out of command grabs imo warrant how effective they are in a tier list.
-Force Palm grab at very early percents is seen as terrible, but it actually possesses combo trees. You can buffer instant dash attacks or well-timed dash attacks to net damage and stage control all the same. That, or dash-in short hop Forward air which will grab pyramid combos for you. A FPG combo at 0%---while yes it is 0%---but you can net either ~20% with Dash Attack finisher, or ~30% with Forward Airs into Neutral Air finisher. So overall, it seems terrible and useless at low Aura, but you have some combo potential at early %. That automatically boosts its merit.
-After mid percents, Lucario doesn't get any combo ability from even UThrow--so throws will just grant stage control and damage. But just with Base Aura---Force Palm grab deals ~16.3% which is fine\good. But we all know it's a delete button with Rage+Aura accumulated at ledge--or even middle stage pre-80%.
-And lastly, I definitely wanna hear your thoughts on the matter of these command grabs in a Doubles environment. Anything to mention at all is fine. I personally was interested to hear what you thought about the flame attack that transpires while Lucario's FPG is successful. Mostly because in Doubles, when I get a successful FPG, the opponent who isn't grabbed can't approach my grab-flame attack due to it being an active hitbox and being safe on-block. FPG's flame grab attack on top of FPG's ending lag being so quick makes it solid in Doubles for crowd-control. And is definitely a plus in helping its merit.
~Yoshi~
-You gave Egg Lay a lot of justice, and I'm happy about that. Thank you. While it's true that Yoshi himself carries the command grab due to his parameters being so good--it just.. it's just good man. Solid A imo. Egg Lay causes situations to reverse in Yoshi's momentum and favor. It's applicable in the air, and is very terrifying to use near ledge like all command grabs can be. But also that Yoshi himself is so intimidating off-stage on top of the fact that you can use a 4f active grabbox. So it's terrifying for anyone who's 2-framed grabbing a ledge. Mediocre mash speed and reacting to the fact that you just got put in an egg prison off-stage needs to be respected. B-Reversing or just pivoting the move is just so busted on Yoshi. So usable.
-Noting this, but upon succession, what do you think about Egg Lay in the air and how that varies on the matchup? All characters have different gravity and air physics, so it's actually not as universally useful on all characters, which can hold it back some from being better.
-But I also wanted to hear about how safe it is in a Doubles format. Heck, even in singles, that intangible window Yoshi gets when you succeed is just so massive. So safe with so much i-frames (23 i-frames) makes it very dependable to use in a situation that you know a normal directional throw could drop the ball. Or that you could merely get traded with for said throw. Very useful, and so much so, that you can avoid 2v1 scenarios that a standard throw could lack handling with. You sacrifice offensive crowd-control ability that a command grab could have, but you're rewarded with high defensive/safe coverage. And that's also very good.
Always love that theme song of yours
Great content as usual
you can get some nice drag down combos with jokers. feel like it could he bumped up a bit for that
Just for clarification, how easy Ridley's side b is to break out of is not about the opponent's percent, but the difference between their percent and Ridley's. If they have 30 percent more damage than Ridley they can't break out, if they have 20% and a decent amount of ground to cover, they can break out if they're good at mashing. So if Ridley is at 0% and the opponent is at 30%, Ridley can take them from one side of the stage to the other without them escaping, dealing a ton of damage.
If they are equal percent, Ridley can take them a short distance, maybe a quarter of battlefield, before they can escape. While if Ridley has just taken a stock and has a much higher percent than his opponent, it's super easy for the opponent to escape out of.
Using the criteria you used for this video, would the last hit of Kazuya's 10-hit combo be a command grab? And if so, what tier would it be in?
No, it's an unblockable attack but nothing about it acts like a grab, the same applies to Ryu's charged Focus Attack, for example.
Thanks for saving the best for last
Dedede inhale should be A or S tier it's range for a command grab is massive and beats out attacks sometimes. Spitting them out also give dedede great positional advantage to set up into a f-air or a gordo setup. And he can do command grab into up-tilt sometimes which is a cool kill confirm. Also it's a good landing mixup for dedede when the opponent thinks they're going to land with a n-air or b-air
25:12. You should do a tier list for characters' items, if you haven't already
I liked this. I hop you do one for items (links bomb botw arrow, turnips banana etc ....
Ok, but sometimes I intentionally use ridley's command grab knowing my opponent will mash out. Because they tend to always do the same thing each time they mash out of it, and I can frequently land a forward smash on them, or at least get a hit that leads into a good combo.
I always SD when I mash out of something. Its like I always get a side b or up b.
I don't know if K.Rool blunderbuss belongs in F. KirbyKid uses it consistently to condition surprise kills. Yes you can wait, but that makes it a mixup. It covers both normal getup and roll, even attack if the range is short. Being able to cover 2/3 getup options allows it to be an effective conditioning tool
It also covers jump
Ganon side b basically taught me how to get basic reads which is just so useful