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For Ganondorf, I’d say get rid of the super armor of neutral B, because it would actually prevent the Ganons from arguing this move isn’t absolutely awful.
Also knowing what has armor on it can only be found out when you try to hit them during it and often get hit by it because there's no way to know until you try to challenge it.
@@KRcanondaisa To be fair that is if you're throwing it out in neutral. If your opponent is mashing out of disadvantage or really predictable with their recovery you MIGHT be able to get away with using it as a pseudo counter.
My favorite part of this video is Mockrock nerfing Luigi to try and stop the 0-death as if Luigi players aren't going to come up with a new one half an hour after the theoretical nerf
Honestly, I think Luigi's problem move might be moreso Super Jump Punch than D-Air. Most of his combos finish with an Up B, and it's a great finisher because of how crazy strong it is. I guess you could fix that by decreasing base knockback but then having KBG go way up. And definately reduce knockback of aerial Up B
Mario has gotten so incredibly over tuned, he absolutely needs some nerfs. Fire ball is just so meta-defining. It makes certain matchups like Mario against Mario and Mario against Mario just completely unbearable.
Really happy that you took a characters whole design into account for this video! I know a lot of people who’d just nerf the annoying thing but I feel like this approach makes way more sense and was a lot more interesting.
Considering it's one of the few games where he has a kit that isn't just borrowed and tweaked from Mario, it makes so much more sense than just a standard grab.
I do agree that being a grappler is kinda cool especially considering how abysmal his horizontal mobility is, but I also do feel like _something_ about his grab game could be nerfed because it feels like a bit much right now.
I would say it makes sense, but I would personally like to see his design merging ideas from Luigi's Mansion and Mario & Luigi RPG (Gooigi supplementing Mario for bros attacks?) and I do not think an excellent standard grab would really fit that design. Luigi could absolutely have a cool grab-game with a vacuum command-grab though, and it might honestly make more sense than the plunger being the focus of his grab-game since the plunger is more of a secondary or even tertiary option in Luigi's Mansion 3.
Okay but I'm still holding my breath for a 3 hour comprehensive breakdown of every way you'd redesign each character's kits, that seems like a totally reasonable ask :)
More comprehensive rework videos are something that get requested a lot, I do have some ideas vaguely along those lines but no set schedule at this point
@@MockRockTalk If you do that, in my opinion, Kirby just need 1 thing, replace all his specials with the character he copies, that's all Kirby needs, no stats buff or change frame data in his attacks, just that and Kirby would be a good character without being "broken" and also fun to use bc yes
@@waffleman8053 i know, i just think that's what Kirby needs to be fully represented, relying in copy abilities, i don't want the developers to suffer lol
That's the sort of video you'd need to do some communication with the character communities for. As much as I like MockRock's takes, a full rework for each character would take an absurd amount of character knowledge. That being said, I'd love to see it happen
Barely into this video, but the nerf I'd personally give Samus' Charge Shot would be its priority. Compare Charge Shot to Ryu's Shakunetsu or Samus' Homing Missile. Shakunetsu and the missle lose to a surprising amount of moves (although timing that can be kinda hard), but then look at charge shot, which you can rarely ever beat out in the same way, and the reward for landing this move is higher than both of those moves most of the time. I think giving it much lower priority would still keep it a good move, as it could combo and kill like before, but it would no longer be the "dictate neutral for free" tool.
Priority doesn't exist beyond trascendency, clanking is only dependant on the damage attacks deal and Ryu's multihit Shakunetsu and Samus' Homing Missile naturally get destroyed easier than the 20% dealing Charge Shot. It's pretty much impossible to do without reworking how the clash system works in Smash
@@skarmcl Well the point is, the weaker charge shot ALSO is much harder to beat out, so modifying how that move behaves and making it easier to beat out would be good. You wouldn't need to rework how the entire clash system works, I don't think.
@@zernek9199 depends on how weak, the no charge charge shot gets demolished by any sort of aerial but the one that's charged halfway (the one that deals ~20%) is significantly harder if not impossible to destroy. You could make it so charge shot deals less damage but reaccomodate its knockback properties to keep similar power, that way you have a 15% dealing projectile at max charge that's still very powerful in terms of knockback and can still combo thanks to the added hitlag and low bkb but can be destroyed easier... but there are so many charge shots that share similar properties that it'd need a reformulation of it. Charge Shot isn't even the best Charge Shot, Shadow Ball is, but Samus' kit and weight is better suited to use one than the one Mewtwo has. If I'd nerf something of Samus it'd actually be her bomb, I feel like the bomb is the true evil of Samus. Charge Shot is good and helps her dictate neutral but it's just that, a powerful projectile. The bomb make her neutral harder to deal as it lays a zone limiting projectile that covers her while she charges up and allows her to more easily counteract the opponent's aggresive initiatives, assists in her disadvantage by adding a tool that instantly allows her to correct her drift and stall a bit too, making it safer to recover and land which makes getting inside Samus' zone less impactful. And the advantage applications are just obscene, she already has Charge Shot as a safe way to cover several ledge options on reaction with zero risk and now she has a tool that limits how much you can wait and cuts the one option she's unable to react to, as well as giving her some pretty free edgeguards on certain characters. It's not her mosr overcentralizing tool but it's one complementary tool that lets her do things that shouldn't be allowed for her archetype (Plus it's annoying af) Make it laggier and have a smaller hitbox, not much else needs to be done
@@MockRockTalk the werehog sounds much better and the move itself should stay that way. Probably should reduce the knockback on spin so it won’t kill and the combo potential will be more harder to get which will force more Spincharge. Reducing Sonic kill power and range only wants more campy Sonic and in this game it’s much less required than S4
It's a very loose interpretation and making him the Warehog for just that move is just poor design (honestly not much worse than how Sonic is designed already). Not to mention the actual lore of the warehog would be completely shattered.
@@wingedbluj1674 we have link with moves from 500 different incarnations of link and ganon as an old man who can’t move or deal with projectiles. I think giving sonic something that sonic has done in a sonic game would be fine.
For Simon and Richter, I’d change them so that only Simon can angle his aerial whip strikes and only Richter can change the trajectory on Axe and Cross. Simon being more proficient with the whip references how he could whip in different directions in Super Castlevania. Meanwhile, Richter having greater control of his specials can indirectly tie to the greater emphasis of sub weapons in Rondo of Blood courtesy of Richter’s signature Item Crash.
@@YounesLayachi angling cross alone already makes richter have a bigger threat bubble than Simon, I think this would be a great change for the both of them
I love the idea of wiff lag on kazuya. It’s pretty common in most fighting games where if you miss a move you get much more lag after, but connecting it with an opponent cuts down that lag so you can combo them. I feel like putting that specifically on electric wind god fist would give it a risk, while still having great reward.
Is this actually a common mechanic in fighting games outside of being able to special cancel / sometimes normal cancel? I haven't played a ton of different fighting games but in the ones I have played this is mostly a consequence of being able to cancel the endlag of normals into another move if they connect.
@@SSM24_ it's typically the case in most fighting games. You can whiff a move and be punished for it harshly. But it usually depends on the frame data if it's safe or not when just straight up whiffing and whiffing on block.
@@YounesLayachi I agree (looking at you, Falcons) but I feel like there's a better solution than universal whiff staling. Even if it would be "technically" good for the health of the meta, on a base level I think it would make the game feel worse (and make Melee fans complain for taking away their precious APM... those useless, useless actions)
33:15 I think if you were able to change Ness’ Up & Down Smashes together, but said that Sonic’s Side & Down Specials are too functionally different, you could do Mega Man’s Jab, F-Tilt, & N-Air together.
Honestly, I’d be interested in watching him go through what he’d do to update every character for a potential Smash 6 game. Think there’s a lot of potential there to have some fun content. Split the characters up so the video isn’t too long and you’d be good to go! Make it a new series. You’ve always got great ideas and insight, so it would be amazing to see.
Oh god, no. Most characters list their one good trick, Pikachu got literally one of its least significant tricks nerfed, and not even in a way that actually impacts it. Please release me from Smash 6
For Diddy, make banana peel like wonderwing, cap it at like 4 or 5 per stock so the player has to make intentional use instead of popping it whenever they get a chance to.
As a tradeoff Dropping the banana now creates a skinless banana that diddy can eat, or risks losing to the enemy if they use it in midair or can't stay for it
Feels like tripping moves should either be changed to not have trips, or have guaranteed trips at lower percents. Randomness isn’t fun to deal with, especially when it can dictate the entire flow of the match.
Honestly I really like that up air idea for a Falco nerf. I'm glad you didn't go the cop out route of "just nerf up tilt lol". If I had to choose something big to nerf, I'd probably remove forward air's landing hitbox. That move lets Falco get away with a lot more than he should sometimes.
Maybe it's an unfair criticism but I think landing hitboxes especially in online play are obnoxious. Punishing things online is already adding a tight timing window because of the extreme lag and allowing characters to cover their own landings is an added layer of frustration.
I don’t really agree with Richter f tilt being changed because “it’s a Simon move.” F tilt is used by literally EVERY Belmont that ever lived. So maybe up air would be a better candidate for additional startup, because Richter can’t whip up in his games, but Simon can is SCV4.
It's not true invincibility, if you look at her in training mode she won't turn blue, but her head hitbox is significantly disjointed so it's functionally largely the same thing
I'd love for Daisy to have more ground speed and less air speed, I think that would be an awesome change! You could also make her float last for way less time, but to compensate you could make her grounded moves faster and give her Peach's headbutt up-tilt from melee to make her more of a ground-based fighter. That's a bit off the topic of nerfing though LOL
@@pvzmariosonica8fan Instead of that, I would want Daisy's physical attributes (running speed, jump height, air acceleration, and physical attacks) increased as trade off for losing float. Any flower attacks would give the opponent a flower head
@@julienherard414 Having flower attacks put a flower on their head is a little _too_ overpowered, unless they were specifically nerfed a lot so the damage the opponent receives from the flower effect is about as substantial as Peach's regular up tilt damage.
@@lasercraft32 her magic attacks would be weaker oversll, and the flower duration would be low. The more flower attacks tacked on in quick succession can increase the flower's duration, however.
@@MockRockTalk another interpretation for this would be how to buff every character to be top tier. Not just buffing a si gle move significantly, but buffing enough stuff with enough synergy so the character is positively broken on the tier of Aegis or other top tiers
I agree with your analysis for Ness, the Yo-yo hitbox shouldn’t have either lower power or just no hitbox at all. He has no trouble doing ledgetraps or edgegaurds, with his kit. Most people say PK Fire needs a cooldown, but I think the Yo-yo is what needs to go more. Especially at top-level.
I know PK Fire is a move a lot of people find kind of annoying, but at the very least you need to actually use it like a proper projectile haha, yoyo breaks the standard waaaaay more
Random is to reliant on rng to be a functional character. So I propose random can now only pick Ganon, Mac and doc. This would make them waaaaay less annoying to fight
I think you made Steve actually work like Minecraft where you can only build blocks attached to other blocks, meaning you couldn’t build on thin air, he’d be a much worse and more balanced character, even if you changed literally nothing else about him
He is not strong to the extent where he would need one of his more iconic moves gutted to the point of uselessness to be 'balanced'. He is certainly on the higher end but I don't even think the case is rock solid that he is the strongest in the game. Minecart is a far more sensible thing to have a glance at nerfing. It is not a particularly fair move and changing it would bring him down a peg but not utterly destroy their purpose. Steve is a setup character, he is allowed to have a tool that enables setups.
It guts his absolutely degenerate combo game and cheesy block edguards while letting Steve still make a wall and mine in the corner. I for one would be all in on this change.
A thought on diddy: Though I'd hate to nerf this sweet monkey at all, I think a better candidate would be his down air. That shit is so cheesy, and there's confirms into spiking at ledge at obscene percents.
I kinda like this idea because there are definitely some characters defined by one move, and I think a lot of the time they prevent more interesting moves to replace them, like Charge shot being nothing like how it acts in Metroid, and if it was nerfed, then the possibility of replacing it with something more interesting like the ice beam isn’t as much of an impossibility… even if this video is just a “what if” thing.
Charge shot is a beautiful move once you leave the competitive mindset. When you are a newcomer, it instinctively shows you what this character is good at. Creating some bizarre negative edge charge shot will add unnecessary input ceiling for samus for "authenticity".
Big agree on Ike. Dash attack is definitely the move to hit if you had to nerf him. Last local I killed a ROB with rage dash sttack at like 50%. That move is heinous.
Rework ideas for the Echo Fighters that are still too similar to the base characters: - Dark Samus is a mass of corruptive energy that, aside from having claws, is probably extremely hazardous to even touch, much less get smacked in the face by. Maybe she could have greater emphasis on her normals, with certain moves inflicting the "poison" effect that only normally exists in Spirits, Assist Trophies, and as the reskinned "curse" for Joker's side B. - Daisy: In Super Mario Run, Daisy has no float and a midair jump to differentiate her from Peach. Give her a triple jump in Smash and retool her aerials to be usable while rising and falling. - Dark Pit: Dark Pit is much more aggressive and to-the-point than Pit, but his Silver Bow has stronger projectiles in exchange for weaker melee. I would remove his Orbitars' reflector property in exchange for having him shoot a few blasts from them on use. - Richter: As MockRock said, emphasize the moves that come from him and de-emphasize the moves that come from Simon. I would specifically try to make it so that he has a harder time keeping opponents at his ideal distance, but an easier time surviving when they get to theirs. Nerf his projectiles but give him a higher Uppercut, faster dash attack and down tilt, et cetera.
10:58 this is late, but in SSF2, Ness's up and down smash activate instantly regardless of holding the button or charge if the yo-yo dips below ledge. You still get the 2-frame, but there's a window of opportunity for the opponent to get back up.
In my experience as a Hero main, I rarely ever hit crit F-Smash because I never throw them out. The few times I crit is usually a double Down-Smash crit on a Kacrackle Slash frozen enemy or an Up-Smash crit on an enemy on a platform (and even then Up-Tilt with Oomph or Psych Up is usually safer). If I was going to nerf something about Hero that would impact higher levels of play, it would be not giving him the reduced mana restoration effect when he hits a shield, and just not restoring mana on shield. In casual play though, crits are totally busted
I think Pichu was honestly a "door in the face" that was used to make Pikachu's power level seem more reasonable and less in need of nerf, at least at first.
Neutral Air: Mario, Link, Pichu, Wario, Villager, Mii Brawler, Mii Gunner, Palutena, Pac-Man Down Tilt: Donkey Kong Neutral Special: Samus, Kirby, Bowser, Lucina, Olimar, Little Mac, Shulk, Ken, Ridley, King K. Rool, Sora Up Special: Dark Samus, Mr. Game and Watch, Toon Link, Bowser Jr., Cloud, Incineroar Back Air: Yoshi, Pit Side Special: Fox, Marth, Roy, Snake, Lucas, ROB, Ryu, Inkling, Piranha Plant, Terry, Steve Dash Attack: Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Dark Pit, Ike, Simon Down Air: Luigi, Mega Man, Pyra Up Smash: Ness, Captain Falcon, Sheik, Charizard, Wolf, Hero Down Smash: Ness, Isabelle, Hero Movement Speed- Ground: Peach Movement Speed- Air: Daisy Down Special: Ice Climbers, Zelda, Mewtwo, Meta Knight, Zero Suit Samus, Dedede, Wii Fit Trainer, Rosalina, Duck Hunt, Bayonetta, Banjo-Kazooie, Sephiroth Grab Speed: Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Robin Up Air: Falco, Ivysaur Forward Air: Young Link, Hero Forward Smash: Chrom, Diddy, Sonic, Lucario, Corrin, Min Min Forward Tilt: Squirtle, Richter Weight: Greninja Down Throw: Mii Swordfighter, Byleth Meter: Joker Dodge: Mythra Special Input: Kazuya
For Palutena I'd actually bring her airspeed down a bit. It could prevent her from chaining together Nairs constantly but doesn't take too much combo potential away for other moves
coming from a steve main, a minecart nerf makes sense, but i personally would increase the startup on diamond moves by a couple frames each. By making there a slight tradeoff to crafting diamonds, it creates more interesting questions about what tools to craft (and i like the idea of it being an inverse upgrade compared to gold). It may also encourage the crafting of iron tools more, to get that power without the lag, which should reduce the amount of anvils/carts a steve uses. also, by making diamond a bit less useful, it makes mining a little less incentivized and promotes healthier play imo. and as a nice bonus, it makes insane moves like diamond fsmash and bair just a little bit less crazy
The main thing I'd want to do to Steve would be to make him lose his materials when he dies. That's how it works in Minecraft. He shouldn't be able to spend a whole stock avoiding interaction for diamond only to come back to his next stock with immediate diamond tools if they're gonna be as strong as they are.
Cool video! I think everything was interesting and well-thought out, especially healthy nerfs to weaker characters. One thing about Duck Hunt! Each of the five gunmen that randomly pop out have a startup speed tied to them, so the startup is an RNG mechanic. I think this has a bit of intrigue since both players can use the different ones to their advantage.
44:10 one time I survived lucina final smash at high percent by charging plasma breath, it was an accident, kinda cool, but made me realise how weird this mechanic is
38:45 yeah, it's a recurring theme for sword zoners to have really good grabs or throws because they couldn't be balanced properly with other good tools
Honestly, Min Min’s arms should have hurtboxes on them. That way you could actually challenge her, and also make it easier to win neutral against her since it’s near impossible. I don’t understand why Piranha Plant and Mewtwo have unnecessarily huge hurtboxes that removes almost all disjoints, yet Min Min has none and you cannot hit her for preforming a move from far away
"Random trips" Sounds an awful lot like another infamous rng-based mechanic that dictates life or death in a game where everything is also already extremely chaotic.
I think taking away Wolf flash combos wouldn't be a great nerf because even though they're cheesey and kill early, the only way he survives is if a link, duck hunt, or snake bomb blows him up after, his opponent directly saves him, or he lands on a Pac-Man trampoline.
I like the idea for steve having his base minecraft just not like this overpowered move like it should have like a lag. In my opinion steve with wooden tools should not do a 70% just from 1 interaction like 35% or 47% is what the combo should be with wooden tools and with higher tools yeah keep the base damage.
That's a pretty reasonable direction to take it as well! Within the standards of this video it's not really the ideal in my eyes because getting stone tools is very easy, and I can't make a suggestion that would completely rework all of the materials' power, but as a more general idea I think it's solid. As for the top character, it's honestly very hard to say. My answer is always "whoever has the best overall weighted matchup spread" and tbh I think that might _still_ be Pikachu, but it's really tough.
I do agree that is who has the best matchup spread and pikachu just only has 2 losing matchups and steve i think has like 5 or 6 which is still good but not like pikachu. Steve is like GaW where he just invalids a lot of characters and has like amazing moves but because how he struggles with characters with really long range. like with the recent tournament with leo and acola it showed that steve really struggles with Byleth range.
On Hero, I think it could work if crits had a 0.7x knockback multiplier added so they didn't kill so early, but maybe slightly earlier than regular smash attacks. In RPGs criticals do more damage but usually don't have any reactions like knockback, so I think it would be fine reference-wise and would still keep him as the funny random character. And I never like to remove Special Zoom.
For Samus charge shot, I have a few ideas: Nerfs: 1) You could increase the startup lag on the charge and/or the shot to make it more reactable, thus making counterplay to the move possible from farther ranges (especially online). 2) You could make storing the charge laggier so that aerial approaches against poorly spaced charges are more effective, thus increasing the distance samus needs to put between her and her opponent in order to safely charge. This would also affect the risk-reward between storing and shooting, thus influencing Samus players to use stronger versions of charge shot less often. Reworks: 3) You could make it so that you could only store the charge when the shot is full charged, thus reducing samus's ability to get the fully charged shot and increasing faithfulness since only fully charging changes the attack's properties in metroid games. 3.1) If this goes too far, then you could reduce the power scaling for partially charged shots while keeping the power of the fully charged shot. This would also increase the combo potential of the move since it is weaker more often, thus allowing for follow ups at more charge amounts.
Very interesting concept for both ideas ! If I especially like the rework, however I still think that increasing the lag of charging animation (start) or stocking animation (end) is going to bring another problem to the table. As MockRock said, it will be preferable to not encourage Samus to camp, and the 2 nerfs you proposed don't match with this criterias because: 1) if the charge storing animation is longer, than there's less combo potential, AKA less close range fight, AKA more camping 2) if the startup lag is increased, as you say, the Samus would have to balance that with even more distance, and thus more camping Except for those points, I totally agree with your take, good analysis man :)
Genuinely an incredible ad because I spent the intro of the video going “Man I love how unkempt he’s getting over these videos” and then he just rips it all off for an ad. Touché good sir!
Personally I’d swap Pit and Dark Pit’s nerfs. I think making Pit the air-based fighter and Dark Pit the ground based one plays into the “Fallen Angel” thing Dark Pit has going on
While I think that Smash 4 tended to take things too far, I find it interesting how characters would find new gameplans and sometimes even come back to top tier relevancy after getting something they had gutted
57:47 I get that Sora is an unpopular character but an important thing people note is that Thundaga is a mediocre projectile, and it's probably the reason why the other 2 are allowed to be as good. It's very common to see Sora sets where Sora is stuck on Thundaga for very long periods of time compared to the other spells because it's just that much of a liability to try and get off the move. At 30 frames of startup it's totally reactable, and takes over a second to complete which means whiffing can either result in a loss of stage control or just outright a punish. at high enough percents you can react to the projectile about to hit you and DI out to make the multi-hit drop. The bolts are pretty slender and it's not uncommon for people to be able to simply shift around them. I personally don't too much of an issue with Sora as is but if I had to pick something. Sora's dair is supposed to be a mediocre landing option and it totally is so leaning into that by changing the auto cancel window to not let the move be +3-6 would be fine. Maybe reduce the shield damage on Freeze because it's already good at catching basically every ledge option with good timing and killing people offstage with how fairly easy it is to land. Or remove the Tapped vs Held F-tilt 50/50 on block so he's actually forced to space that move.
I do love these creative hypotheticals where you have to look at the character's entire kit. It really makes me want a video where you'd go through every character and replace one of their so-so moves with something more canonically accurate from their respective franchises. A _lot_ of characters have new/unexplored games that would add a lot of uniqueness to their tired old movesets. Mario, Samus, the Links, and Sonic are the obvious ones that come to mind, but I feel like everyone has some decent source material to pull from which would be fun to dig through if you look hard enough.
Buggest disagree from me was chrom. For me it's the true combo suicide kill. It kills at zero, it's able to be comboed into, and it doesn't even make it possible to tech a wall for some reason.
yoshi isn't as mobile as he is in his series with his air speed and i think he should be a fast character but not as fast as he is right now, and yoshi is also a heavyweight with busted killpower and fast
As a Ridley main, fun fact, the weak spot mechanic can actually be used for utility! It's very rare, but you can use it to survive an offstage kill move if the opponent can only throw out the one before recovering. Basically anything else is probably better, but it *can* be done and you can survive. It's a gimmick at best, but a neat one lol
For Duck Hunt, I honestly like the frame 1 can as a combo breaker. It's way more committal than Snake's grenades, considering their light weight, and it puts the duo in a much worse spot than Snake, whose considerable bulk offsets the damage taken. If I had to nerf them, what I'd do instead is make them a tad lighter in order to make can a riskier option as a combo breaker. Then again I can totally see why you'd want your proposed nerf instead, since it is dumb for a strategic zoner to get out of combos for free like this. Another change I'd like that isn't a nerf but it'd be cool for the Gunmen to come out in a specific order like Oli's Pikmin so Duck Hunt and the enemy know who's going to come out next, and both sides can take advantage of it better. This takes away dumb stuff like the Gunmen not shooting the can when you need to because they have a shorter range then you were expecting, or losing a cool setup because you got a Gunman who fires at the wrong time. I love Gunman stuff but the RNG aspect makes it much more difficult and inconsistent than it needs to be.
I think a fun idea for a Steve nerf would be locking specific materials from mining behind upgrading your tools. Right now there’s not really any incentive to craft until you either break your tools or find a diamond, so that’s basically all you’re doing. I think it would make more sense to actually make you progress and upgrade your tools, you start with wood and it can only mine dirt wood and stone. Once you get stone tools, only then do you unlock iron, which also means he’s not starting with the most powerful parts of his kit. Then obviously after stone you can craft iron tools, which unlocks gold redstone and diamonds. Also if you break your tool and are mining with your hands, you can only mine dirt and wood, not even stone, so you either have to save materials to craft new ones, or start all over again. It also makes early game tools more important since you actually have to use them to fight with. Instead of just ignoring the enemy to mine a diamond, you have to actually get the enemy off you with wood and stone so you have time to get better tools. And since you don’t start with iron, you can’t just cheese it with minecarts either, you do need to scrap a bit. Also this is less of a nerf but I think it would be cool that if you have both a diamond and a gold ingot you can choose to craft one or the other instead of defaulting to diamond. So basically after getting iron, you’re choosing between greater power or greater speed.
5:05 I'd make the move have more start up lag when it's uncharged, you never se Samus's players do the maxed charge shot and can't blame them, uncharged charge shot it's really oppresive
MockRock: "I don't wanna hurt Ice Climber's elaborate combos. That's what makes Ice Climbers, Ice Climbers" Also MockRock: "Let's increase the charge time of THE reason to play Samus"
I think ironically the Pit changes might make them a bit more alike by taking away Dark Pit's arrow->dash attack combos. On the other hand I suppose the changes themselves would be fairly severe Pit loses key kill confirms, while Dark Pit has a significantly weakened core neutral tool and punish tool.
I think if minecart became a projectile rather than a command grab, that would be huge. The fact that it can behave like flare blitz without the risk, a mixup on shield, a projectile command grab, can just drag you to the depths of hell, and forces you to mash is a bit much.
I do honestly like that it can scoop up opponents because that's a really interesting design for a move, I just wish it was a hitgrab instead of a proper command grab so it could still be shielded.
Any moves above a certain knockback threshold but that don't lift the opponent off the ground have a baseline 7% chance to trip, but certain moves have a higher chance. Inkling doesn't actually have any moves with a higher-than-normal tripping chance so you must've gotten that 7% chance.
I absolutely love these videos. I’m not even very good at Smash but I still find these videos to be very informative and entertaining. I think it‘s your voice - it’s very relaxing. I don’t know why but I just love watching these videos. Not even as background noise. Like, MockRock videos are some of the only videos I will give my full, undivided attention to. Keep up the good work.
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@@Ivy64_ Haircut was incoming anyways, the timing honestly worked out perfectly lol
@@MockRockTalk a true entrepreneur if ever I've seen one
I'm not buying Manscaped on principle, but that sponsored bit was pretty slick.
DUDE WHY GETTING YOUR INTRO THEME COST MONEY BROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
For Ganondorf, I’d say get rid of the super armor of neutral B, because it would actually prevent the Ganons from arguing this move isn’t absolutely awful.
Not gonna lie, I don't hate this
Also knowing what has armor on it can only be found out when you try to hit them during it and often get hit by it because there's no way to know until you try to challenge it.
Honestly the armour is really pointless, because he can still be grabbed and the move takes a whole 2 seconds to actually come out. Remove it lmao
@@KRcanondaisa A little more than a second, but still ultra reactable.
@@KRcanondaisa To be fair that is if you're throwing it out in neutral. If your opponent is mashing out of disadvantage or really predictable with their recovery you MIGHT be able to get away with using it as a pseudo counter.
My favorite part of this video is Mockrock nerfing Luigi to try and stop the 0-death as if Luigi players aren't going to come up with a new one half an hour after the theoretical nerf
Honestly, I think Luigi's problem move might be moreso Super Jump Punch than D-Air. Most of his combos finish with an Up B, and it's a great finisher because of how crazy strong it is. I guess you could fix that by decreasing base knockback but then having KBG go way up. And definately reduce knockback of aerial Up B
Every time someone makes a luigi zero to death comment it just applies way better to ice climbers.
I think a good nerf was if slightly more knockback was added to his down throw.
@@Succer ICs is just too incosistent to ever come up
@@BlisteringBlue42 your destroying the character they aren’t ever coming back from that
_As long as there's 2 characters in a fighting game... Someone's going to want someone nerfed._
Super Smash Brother. It’s just Mario.
@@XykonOverlord
Nerf cape
Nice reference
Mario has gotten so incredibly over tuned, he absolutely needs some nerfs. Fire ball is just so meta-defining. It makes certain matchups like Mario against Mario and Mario against Mario just completely unbearable.
Really happy that you took a characters whole design into account for this video! I know a lot of people who’d just nerf the annoying thing but I feel like this approach makes way more sense and was a lot more interesting.
'DuDe JuSt MaKe KaZuYa HaVe A nOrMaL aMoUnT oF mOvEs, ThAt WaY I DoNt GeT 0 - dEaThEd' - the people you know
hello Odyssey Central
I feel like odyssey and mock rock could make a good video together
New bowser city is a good track
Watch a darker side run
Luigi being a grappler actually makes a ton of sense in the context of the Luigi's Mansion games.
Considering it's one of the few games where he has a kit that isn't just borrowed and tweaked from Mario, it makes so much more sense than just a standard grab.
I do agree that being a grappler is kinda cool especially considering how abysmal his horizontal mobility is, but I also do feel like _something_ about his grab game could be nerfed because it feels like a bit much right now.
@@SSM24_y'know, I think his grab having alot more end lag wouldn't be too unfair on him considering its already a tether grab
I would say it makes sense, but I would personally like to see his design merging ideas from Luigi's Mansion and Mario & Luigi RPG (Gooigi supplementing Mario for bros attacks?) and I do not think an excellent standard grab would really fit that design.
Luigi could absolutely have a cool grab-game with a vacuum command-grab though, and it might honestly make more sense than the plunger being the focus of his grab-game since the plunger is more of a secondary or even tertiary option in Luigi's Mansion 3.
Okay but I'm still holding my breath for a 3 hour comprehensive breakdown of every way you'd redesign each character's kits, that seems like a totally reasonable ask :)
More comprehensive rework videos are something that get requested a lot, I do have some ideas vaguely along those lines but no set schedule at this point
@@MockRockTalk If you do that, in my opinion, Kirby just need 1 thing, replace all his specials with the character he copies, that's all Kirby needs, no stats buff or change frame data in his attacks, just that and Kirby would be a good character without being "broken" and also fun to use bc yes
@@pokerface7531 That would be WAY to much work for the development team.
@@waffleman8053 i know, i just think that's what Kirby needs to be fully represented, relying in copy abilities, i don't want the developers to suffer lol
That's the sort of video you'd need to do some communication with the character communities for. As much as I like MockRock's takes, a full rework for each character would take an absurd amount of character knowledge. That being said, I'd love to see it happen
Barely into this video, but the nerf I'd personally give Samus' Charge Shot would be its priority. Compare Charge Shot to Ryu's Shakunetsu or Samus' Homing Missile. Shakunetsu and the missle lose to a surprising amount of moves (although timing that can be kinda hard), but then look at charge shot, which you can rarely ever beat out in the same way, and the reward for landing this move is higher than both of those moves most of the time. I think giving it much lower priority would still keep it a good move, as it could combo and kill like before, but it would no longer be the "dictate neutral for free" tool.
I’d remove its combo ability, make it more of a kill move and not let it’s smaller shots combo
Priority doesn't exist beyond trascendency, clanking is only dependant on the damage attacks deal and Ryu's multihit Shakunetsu and Samus' Homing Missile naturally get destroyed easier than the 20% dealing Charge Shot. It's pretty much impossible to do without reworking how the clash system works in Smash
link nair would like to know your location
@@skarmcl Well the point is, the weaker charge shot ALSO is much harder to beat out, so modifying how that move behaves and making it easier to beat out would be good. You wouldn't need to rework how the entire clash system works, I don't think.
@@zernek9199 depends on how weak, the no charge charge shot gets demolished by any sort of aerial but the one that's charged halfway (the one that deals ~20%) is significantly harder if not impossible to destroy.
You could make it so charge shot deals less damage but reaccomodate its knockback properties to keep similar power, that way you have a 15% dealing projectile at max charge that's still very powerful in terms of knockback and can still combo thanks to the added hitlag and low bkb but can be destroyed easier... but there are so many charge shots that share similar properties that it'd need a reformulation of it. Charge Shot isn't even the best Charge Shot, Shadow Ball is, but Samus' kit and weight is better suited to use one than the one Mewtwo has.
If I'd nerf something of Samus it'd actually be her bomb, I feel like the bomb is the true evil of Samus. Charge Shot is good and helps her dictate neutral but it's just that, a powerful projectile. The bomb make her neutral harder to deal as it lays a zone limiting projectile that covers her while she charges up and allows her to more easily counteract the opponent's aggresive initiatives, assists in her disadvantage by adding a tool that instantly allows her to correct her drift and stall a bit too, making it safer to recover and land which makes getting inside Samus' zone less impactful.
And the advantage applications are just obscene, she already has Charge Shot as a safe way to cover several ledge options on reaction with zero risk and now she has a tool that limits how much you can wait and cuts the one option she's unable to react to, as well as giving her some pretty free edgeguards on certain characters. It's not her mosr overcentralizing tool but it's one complementary tool that lets her do things that shouldn't be allowed for her archetype
(Plus it's annoying af)
Make it laggier and have a smaller hitbox, not much else needs to be done
I like to think Sonic’s forward Smash is a reference to how the Warehog has super long stretchy arms in Unleashed.
Technically it's just a reference to the Wind-Up Punch from Sonic The Fighters, but I like your interpretation more lol
@@MockRockTalk the werehog sounds much better and the move itself should stay that way. Probably should reduce the knockback on spin so it won’t kill and the combo potential will be more harder to get which will force more Spincharge. Reducing Sonic kill power and range only wants more campy Sonic and in this game it’s much less required than S4
It'd be neat if he turned into the werehog during the punch. He could also get a sword movie and get his Black Knight design when using the move
It's a very loose interpretation and making him the Warehog for just that move is just poor design (honestly not much worse than how Sonic is designed already). Not to mention the actual lore of the warehog would be completely shattered.
@@wingedbluj1674 we have link with moves from 500 different incarnations of link and ganon as an old man who can’t move or deal with projectiles. I think giving sonic something that sonic has done in a sonic game would be fine.
For Simon and Richter, I’d change them so that only Simon can angle his aerial whip strikes and only Richter can change the trajectory on Axe and Cross. Simon being more proficient with the whip references how he could whip in different directions in Super Castlevania. Meanwhile, Richter having greater control of his specials can indirectly tie to the greater emphasis of sub weapons in Rondo of Blood courtesy of Richter’s signature Item Crash.
That would utterly destroy Richter but I'm not against it
@@YounesLayachi angling cross alone already makes richter have a bigger threat bubble than Simon, I think this would be a great change for the both of them
Excuse me, you can angle axe?
If you tilt the control stick in or out right before you throw the axe, it will be thrown at different trajectories.
That's such a harsh nerf for either of them given the scope of nerfs in this video lmao. Neither of them are even that good to begin with.
“Nerfing EVERY Ultimate character.”
K. Rool, Mac, Ganon, Piranha Plant: Why are we here? Just to suffer?
Yes.
k rool hasn't been bottom tier in years tho
& Doc's just sitting there, forgotten again.
Piranha plant ain't bad at all
There's actually a rather good video by Jacob Geller who hints on Ganon being in Smash specifically to suffer (and get ecstatic payback).
I love the idea of wiff lag on kazuya. It’s pretty common in most fighting games where if you miss a move you get much more lag after, but connecting it with an opponent cuts down that lag so you can combo them. I feel like putting that specifically on electric wind god fist would give it a risk, while still having great reward.
Is this actually a common mechanic in fighting games outside of being able to special cancel / sometimes normal cancel? I haven't played a ton of different fighting games but in the ones I have played this is mostly a consequence of being able to cancel the endlag of normals into another move if they connect.
@@SSM24_ it's typically the case in most fighting games. You can whiff a move and be punished for it harshly. But it usually depends on the frame data if it's safe or not when just straight up whiffing and whiffing on block.
@@marlinmurrell620 I think that's just called "blockstun" :p
I would add whiff staling to smash. To much swinging at ghosts in neutral in my opinion
@@YounesLayachi I agree (looking at you, Falcons) but I feel like there's a better solution than universal whiff staling. Even if it would be "technically" good for the health of the meta, on a base level I think it would make the game feel worse (and make Melee fans complain for taking away their precious APM... those useless, useless actions)
The two birds with one stone got me, even thwomp was like "That was awful, I'm out of here"
I think Steve should just lose all of his ressources when he dies, just like in Minecraft
33:15 I think if you were able to change Ness’ Up & Down Smashes together, but said that Sonic’s Side & Down Specials are too functionally different, you could do Mega Man’s Jab, F-Tilt, & N-Air together.
Honestly, I’d be interested in watching him go through what he’d do to update every character for a potential Smash 6 game. Think there’s a lot of potential there to have some fun content. Split the characters up so the video isn’t too long and you’d be good to go! Make it a new series. You’ve always got great ideas and insight, so it would be amazing to see.
one squirtle buff i'd love going into smash 6: bring shell shifting back
it was rad in brawl and i think they shouldn't've removed it
Oh god, no.
Most characters list their one good trick, Pikachu got literally one of its least significant tricks nerfed, and not even in a way that actually impacts it.
Please release me from Smash 6
Banjo: I'm going to ruin his most important tool
Steve: Let's barely touch minecart
BALANCE!
"Hero has crits because rpg!"
*Looks at Pokémon, Earthbound, Fire Emblem, Xenoblade, Final Fantasy, Persona and Kingdom Hearts reps*
For Diddy, make banana peel like wonderwing, cap it at like 4 or 5 per stock so the player has to make intentional use instead of popping it whenever they get a chance to.
Or you could just give it a cooldown. Similar to Wario's bike.
Both number or cooldown are interesting ways
As a tradeoff
Dropping the banana now creates a skinless banana that diddy can eat, or risks losing to the enemy if they use it in midair or can't stay for it
Feels like tripping moves should either be changed to not have trips, or have guaranteed trips at lower percents. Randomness isn’t fun to deal with, especially when it can dictate the entire flow of the match.
I fully agree with this and I do think it's a mechanic that should be removed entirely, but DK is definitely the poster child for it in my eyes
Items dropping is also random
*Laughs in Judge and Menu*
@@aprinnyonbreak1290 while judge is hilarious fishing a 9 usually isn’t on a gnw players plan tbf
I love the solution of giving the character with a terrible recovery, taking away half the recovery length lol
“Let’s just delete Dr. Mario’s up-b!”
I can listen to MockRock discuss Smash whenever and wherever, no matter what mood I’m in or the subject they talk.
Honestly I really like that up air idea for a Falco nerf. I'm glad you didn't go the cop out route of "just nerf up tilt lol".
If I had to choose something big to nerf, I'd probably remove forward air's landing hitbox. That move lets Falco get away with a lot more than he should sometimes.
Falco's landing fair hitbox might actually be my single least favorite hitbox in the game
I would remove all the multihit aerial landing hitboxes
Maybe it's an unfair criticism but I think landing hitboxes especially in online play are obnoxious. Punishing things online is already adding a tight timing window because of the extreme lag and allowing characters to cover their own landings is an added layer of frustration.
As a Falco main, that was exactly my thought :) This landing hitbox honestly makes us lazy sometimes.
Ikr,it's basically : "Oh shit,they didn't come into my Fair attack,I'm gonna get punishe
...SIKE! LANDING HITBOX SAVE THE DAY"
I don’t really agree with Richter f tilt being changed because “it’s a Simon move.” F tilt is used by literally EVERY Belmont that ever lived. So maybe up air would be a better candidate for additional startup, because Richter can’t whip up in his games, but Simon can is SCV4.
I'm a Jigglypuff player and I DIDN'T KNOW SHE HAD INVINCIBILITY ON HER DASH ATTACK
It's not true invincibility, if you look at her in training mode she won't turn blue, but her head hitbox is significantly disjointed so it's functionally largely the same thing
The thing with falcon up-smash is that it used to not work properly and they tried to fix it by making it bigger
So fun fact about the Corrin f smash on shield clip you used since that was me: I actually told the Yoshi player how to avoid/deal with it midset LOL
ganondorf: *nervous sweating*
I'd love for Daisy to have more ground speed and less air speed, I think that would be an awesome change! You could also make her float last for way less time, but to compensate you could make her grounded moves faster and give her Peach's headbutt up-tilt from melee to make her more of a ground-based fighter. That's a bit off the topic of nerfing though LOL
Maybe reduce the height of her double jump too? She had a double jump in _Super Mario Run_ but it didn't go very high
@@pvzmariosonica8fan Instead of that, I would want Daisy's physical attributes (running speed, jump height, air acceleration, and physical attacks) increased as trade off for losing float. Any flower attacks would give the opponent a flower head
I flip the other way.
Daisy floats half as long, but twice as fast.
Bad for stalling, hyper aggro
@@julienherard414 Having flower attacks put a flower on their head is a little _too_ overpowered, unless they were specifically nerfed a lot so the damage the opponent receives from the flower effect is about as substantial as Peach's regular up tilt damage.
@@lasercraft32 her magic attacks would be weaker oversll, and the flower duration would be low. The more flower attacks tacked on in quick succession can increase the flower's duration, however.
Oooooooooh interesting idea! I'll be interested to see a follow up if you do a buff version! :D
There likely will be, whether it's the next video I'm not sure yet but I'm aiming for weekly uploads throughout most of November/December
Imagine buffing every character to be busted. I’d be down for it lmao
@@MockRockTalk got to get into the habit for the Christmas adverts eh
@@MockRockTalk gotta respect that Q4 grindset
@@MockRockTalk another interpretation for this would be how to buff every character to be top tier. Not just buffing a si gle move significantly, but buffing enough stuff with enough synergy so the character is positively broken on the tier of Aegis or other top tiers
A simple, easy, and fair nerf to Steve's minecart would just be to make it like Isabelle's fishing rod, and can't catch people if they shield it.
The only thing I heard about Link’s Nair was outside the hitboxes, was the absurd priority it has against other moves
I feel like the only reason ZSS isn’t considered a keep away character is because of Marss
You can tell mocks been working on this video for a while lol. My boy looks like a crazy med student.
Fun fact about Fox in Beta Ultimate
He indeed suffered freefall after Side-Special
That sponsor transition was… just brilliant. Seriously where did that bag come from 😂
That's my girlfriend standing on her tiptoes just out of frame haha, she absolutely nailed the timing on that
@@MockRockTalk Kudos to your girlfriend, then!
I agree with your analysis for Ness, the Yo-yo hitbox shouldn’t have either lower power or just no hitbox at all. He has no trouble doing ledgetraps or edgegaurds, with his kit.
Most people say PK Fire needs a cooldown, but I think the Yo-yo is what needs to go more. Especially at top-level.
I know PK Fire is a move a lot of people find kind of annoying, but at the very least you need to actually use it like a proper projectile haha, yoyo breaks the standard waaaaay more
Random is to reliant on rng to be a functional character. So I propose random can now only pick Ganon, Mac and doc. This would make them waaaaay less annoying to fight
53:43 Steve's powered rails need both gold and redstone, he needs to mine redstone but it doesn't appear in the HUD icons/meter
I think you made Steve actually work like Minecraft where you can only build blocks attached to other blocks, meaning you couldn’t build on thin air, he’d be a much worse and more balanced character, even if you changed literally nothing else about him
i think the move would be straight up useless then
Your sacrificing the functionality of the character just for the sake of faithfulness.
He is not strong to the extent where he would need one of his more iconic moves gutted to the point of uselessness to be 'balanced'. He is certainly on the higher end but I don't even think the case is rock solid that he is the strongest in the game. Minecart is a far more sensible thing to have a glance at nerfing. It is not a particularly fair move and changing it would bring him down a peg but not utterly destroy their purpose. Steve is a setup character, he is allowed to have a tool that enables setups.
It guts his absolutely degenerate combo game and cheesy block edguards while letting Steve still make a wall and mine in the corner.
I for one would be all in on this change.
nah bro, that would make them esencially useless on top of chaging too much his playstile. It would be better to just nerf everithing else a bit
Nerfing Ganondorf would be like destroying a hospital
Ganondorf mains would still thank you, cause afterwards they can flex on their opponents harder xD
1:40
ah, Manscaped sponsorship. sorry to hear that. Hope things get better for you soon.
*"EVERYONE IS GRENINJA"*
A thought on diddy: Though I'd hate to nerf this sweet monkey at all, I think a better candidate would be his down air. That shit is so cheesy, and there's confirms into spiking at ledge at obscene percents.
I kinda like this idea because there are definitely some characters defined by one move, and I think a lot of the time they prevent more interesting moves to replace them, like Charge shot being nothing like how it acts in Metroid, and if it was nerfed, then the possibility of replacing it with something more interesting like the ice beam isn’t as much of an impossibility… even if this video is just a “what if” thing.
Charge shot is a beautiful move once you leave the competitive mindset. When you are a newcomer, it instinctively shows you what this character is good at. Creating some bizarre negative edge charge shot will add unnecessary input ceiling for samus for "authenticity".
Big agree on Ike. Dash attack is definitely the move to hit if you had to nerf him. Last local I killed a ROB with rage dash sttack at like 50%. That move is heinous.
Rework ideas for the Echo Fighters that are still too similar to the base characters:
- Dark Samus is a mass of corruptive energy that, aside from having claws, is probably extremely hazardous to even touch, much less get smacked in the face by. Maybe she could have greater emphasis on her normals, with certain moves inflicting the "poison" effect that only normally exists in Spirits, Assist Trophies, and as the reskinned "curse" for Joker's side B.
- Daisy: In Super Mario Run, Daisy has no float and a midair jump to differentiate her from Peach. Give her a triple jump in Smash and retool her aerials to be usable while rising and falling.
- Dark Pit: Dark Pit is much more aggressive and to-the-point than Pit, but his Silver Bow has stronger projectiles in exchange for weaker melee. I would remove his Orbitars' reflector property in exchange for having him shoot a few blasts from them on use.
- Richter: As MockRock said, emphasize the moves that come from him and de-emphasize the moves that come from Simon. I would specifically try to make it so that he has a harder time keeping opponents at his ideal distance, but an easier time surviving when they get to theirs. Nerf his projectiles but give him a higher Uppercut, faster dash attack and down tilt, et cetera.
10:58 this is late, but in SSF2, Ness's up and down smash activate instantly regardless of holding the button or charge if the yo-yo dips below ledge. You still get the 2-frame, but there's a window of opportunity for the opponent to get back up.
In my experience as a Hero main, I rarely ever hit crit F-Smash because I never throw them out. The few times I crit is usually a double Down-Smash crit on a Kacrackle Slash frozen enemy or an Up-Smash crit on an enemy on a platform (and even then Up-Tilt with Oomph or Psych Up is usually safer). If I was going to nerf something about Hero that would impact higher levels of play, it would be not giving him the reduced mana restoration effect when he hits a shield, and just not restoring mana on shield. In casual play though, crits are totally busted
I think Pichu was honestly a "door in the face" that was used to make Pikachu's power level seem more reasonable and less in need of nerf, at least at first.
Neutral Air: Mario, Link, Pichu, Wario, Villager, Mii Brawler, Mii Gunner, Palutena, Pac-Man
Down Tilt: Donkey Kong
Neutral Special: Samus, Kirby, Bowser, Lucina, Olimar, Little Mac, Shulk, Ken, Ridley, King K. Rool, Sora
Up Special: Dark Samus, Mr. Game and Watch, Toon Link, Bowser Jr., Cloud, Incineroar
Back Air: Yoshi, Pit
Side Special: Fox, Marth, Roy, Snake, Lucas, ROB, Ryu, Inkling, Piranha Plant, Terry, Steve
Dash Attack: Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Dark Pit, Ike, Simon
Down Air: Luigi, Mega Man, Pyra
Up Smash: Ness, Captain Falcon, Sheik, Charizard, Wolf, Hero
Down Smash: Ness, Isabelle, Hero
Movement Speed- Ground: Peach
Movement Speed- Air: Daisy
Down Special: Ice Climbers, Zelda, Mewtwo, Meta Knight, Zero Suit Samus, Dedede, Wii Fit Trainer, Rosalina, Duck Hunt, Bayonetta, Banjo-Kazooie, Sephiroth
Grab Speed: Dr. Mario, Ganondorf, Robin
Up Air: Falco, Ivysaur
Forward Air: Young Link, Hero
Forward Smash: Chrom, Diddy, Sonic, Lucario, Corrin, Min Min
Forward Tilt: Squirtle, Richter
Weight: Greninja
Down Throw: Mii Swordfighter, Byleth
Meter: Joker
Dodge: Mythra
Special Input: Kazuya
For Palutena I'd actually bring her airspeed down a bit. It could prevent her from chaining together Nairs constantly but doesn't take too much combo potential away for other moves
coming from a steve main, a minecart nerf makes sense, but i personally would increase the startup on diamond moves by a couple frames each. By making there a slight tradeoff to crafting diamonds, it creates more interesting questions about what tools to craft (and i like the idea of it being an inverse upgrade compared to gold). It may also encourage the crafting of iron tools more, to get that power without the lag, which should reduce the amount of anvils/carts a steve uses. also, by making diamond a bit less useful, it makes mining a little less incentivized and promotes healthier play imo. and as a nice bonus, it makes insane moves like diamond fsmash and bair just a little bit less crazy
Fun Fact despite the fact that Pac-Man is labeled as a zoner, every single one of his aerials starts in less than 10 frames.
Yeah that's not ok.
They're setup characters, not zoners. There's a difference.
Same with Snake and his non-Smash ground normals.
43:00 F for the CPU Snake
The main thing I'd want to do to Steve would be to make him lose his materials when he dies. That's how it works in Minecraft. He shouldn't be able to spend a whole stock avoiding interaction for diamond only to come back to his next stock with immediate diamond tools if they're gonna be as strong as they are.
0:56 did MockRock just morph into “Cloud” Little Z?
i won't unsee this now lol
Gonna hard disagree with the Fox one. Moves that only move sideways should *not* put you in special fall.
snake failing to recover at 43:04 is so funny
Cool video! I think everything was interesting and well-thought out, especially healthy nerfs to weaker characters. One thing about Duck Hunt! Each of the five gunmen that randomly pop out have a startup speed tied to them, so the startup is an RNG mechanic. I think this has a bit of intrigue since both players can use the different ones to their advantage.
44:10 one time I survived lucina final smash at high percent by charging plasma breath, it was an accident, kinda cool, but made me realise how weird this mechanic is
Holy shit it even works on final smashes too? That's actually hilarious.
38:45 yeah, it's a recurring theme for sword zoners to have really good grabs or throws because they couldn't be balanced properly with other good tools
Honestly, Min Min’s arms should have hurtboxes on them. That way you could actually challenge her, and also make it easier to win neutral against her since it’s near impossible. I don’t understand why Piranha Plant and Mewtwo have unnecessarily huge hurtboxes that removes almost all disjoints, yet Min Min has none and you cannot hit her for preforming a move from far away
"Random trips"
Sounds an awful lot like another infamous rng-based mechanic that dictates life or death in a game where everything is also already extremely chaotic.
One nerf to really nerf mario is just his back air landing lag. Easy nerf
and aerials too, such a wank character
@@Youzan808 True but people like to back air and follow up with something. So yeah nerfing back air only would be a very good solution
@@sipinosapa it's crazy that bair can combo into itself and has no lag
I think taking away Wolf flash combos wouldn't be a great nerf because even though they're cheesey and kill early, the only way he survives is if a link, duck hunt, or snake bomb blows him up after, his opponent directly saves him, or he lands on a Pac-Man trampoline.
Wolf is cheesy af
I like the idea for steve having his base minecraft just not like this overpowered move like it should have like a lag.
In my opinion steve with wooden tools should not do a 70% just from 1 interaction like 35% or 47% is what the combo should be with wooden tools and with higher tools yeah keep the base damage.
Also random question who do you think is the best character in smash at the moment?
That's a pretty reasonable direction to take it as well! Within the standards of this video it's not really the ideal in my eyes because getting stone tools is very easy, and I can't make a suggestion that would completely rework all of the materials' power, but as a more general idea I think it's solid. As for the top character, it's honestly very hard to say. My answer is always "whoever has the best overall weighted matchup spread" and tbh I think that might _still_ be Pikachu, but it's really tough.
I do agree that is who has the best matchup spread and pikachu just only has 2 losing matchups and steve i think has like 5 or 6 which is still good but not like pikachu.
Steve is like GaW where he just invalids a lot of characters and has like amazing moves but because how he struggles with characters with really long range. like with the recent tournament with leo and acola it showed that steve really struggles with Byleth range.
Now I want to see what you would buff about every single character
Ngl I actually really like the “scruffy” hair
On Hero, I think it could work if crits had a 0.7x knockback multiplier added so they didn't kill so early, but maybe slightly earlier than regular smash attacks. In RPGs criticals do more damage but usually don't have any reactions like knockback, so I think it would be fine reference-wise and would still keep him as the funny random character. And I never like to remove Special Zoom.
Yeah Zoom save you from being ko on Hero so don't remove zoom ok.
For Samus charge shot, I have a few ideas:
Nerfs:
1) You could increase the startup lag on the charge and/or the shot to make it more reactable, thus making counterplay to the move possible from farther ranges (especially online).
2) You could make storing the charge laggier so that aerial approaches against poorly spaced charges are more effective, thus increasing the distance samus needs to put between her and her opponent in order to safely charge. This would also affect the risk-reward between storing and shooting, thus influencing Samus players to use stronger versions of charge shot less often.
Reworks:
3) You could make it so that you could only store the charge when the shot is full charged, thus reducing samus's ability to get the fully charged shot and increasing faithfulness since only fully charging changes the attack's properties in metroid games.
3.1) If this goes too far, then you could reduce the power scaling for partially charged shots while keeping the power of the fully charged shot. This would also increase the combo potential of the move since it is weaker more often, thus allowing for follow ups at more charge amounts.
Agree with 3.1
Very interesting concept for both ideas !
If I especially like the rework, however I still think that increasing the lag of charging animation (start) or stocking animation (end) is going to bring another problem to the table.
As MockRock said, it will be preferable to not encourage Samus to camp, and the 2 nerfs you proposed don't match with this criterias because:
1) if the charge storing animation is longer, than there's less combo potential, AKA less close range fight, AKA more camping
2) if the startup lag is increased, as you say, the Samus would have to balance that with even more distance, and thus more camping
Except for those points, I totally agree with your take, good analysis man :)
Genuinely an incredible ad because I spent the intro of the video going “Man I love how unkempt he’s getting over these videos” and then he just rips it all off for an ad. Touché good sir!
Personally I’d swap Pit and Dark Pit’s nerfs. I think making Pit the air-based fighter and Dark Pit the ground based one plays into the “Fallen Angel” thing Dark Pit has going on
While I think that Smash 4 tended to take things too far, I find it interesting how characters would find new gameplans and sometimes even come back to top tier relevancy after getting something they had gutted
57:47
I get that Sora is an unpopular character but an important thing people note is that Thundaga is a mediocre projectile, and it's probably the reason why the other 2 are allowed to be as good.
It's very common to see Sora sets where Sora is stuck on Thundaga for very long periods of time compared to the other spells because it's just that much of a liability to try and get off the move.
At 30 frames of startup it's totally reactable, and takes over a second to complete which means whiffing can either result in a loss of stage control or just outright a punish.
at high enough percents you can react to the projectile about to hit you and DI out to make the multi-hit drop.
The bolts are pretty slender and it's not uncommon for people to be able to simply shift around them.
I personally don't too much of an issue with Sora as is but if I had to pick something. Sora's dair is supposed to be a mediocre landing option and it totally is so leaning into that by changing the auto cancel window to not let the move be +3-6 would be fine.
Maybe reduce the shield damage on Freeze because it's already good at catching basically every ledge option with good timing and killing people offstage with how fairly easy it is to land.
Or remove the Tapped vs Held F-tilt 50/50 on block so he's actually forced to space that move.
46:30 it's dumb because of the spike blastzone. It has to go. Spikes are already the most effective way to take stocks (due to gravity)
I do love these creative hypotheticals where you have to look at the character's entire kit. It really makes me want a video where you'd go through every character and replace one of their so-so moves with something more canonically accurate from their respective franchises. A _lot_ of characters have new/unexplored games that would add a lot of uniqueness to their tired old movesets. Mario, Samus, the Links, and Sonic are the obvious ones that come to mind, but I feel like everyone has some decent source material to pull from which would be fun to dig through if you look hard enough.
What if...and hear me out...what if Olimar took 3% recoil every time he plucked a Pikmin? Defeating Pikmins suddenly hurts him a lot more.
People would complain that it makes no sense
Keeping the same shirt pre and post haircut was awesome detail :)
I would love a baseball bat smash animation tier list from you - you're the only person on youtube who could pull it off!
Buggest disagree from me was chrom. For me it's the true combo suicide kill. It kills at zero, it's able to be comboed into, and it doesn't even make it possible to tech a wall for some reason.
Yoshi having 5 kill aerials is absurd
yoshi isn't as mobile as he is in his series with his air speed and i think he should be a fast character but not as fast as he is right now, and yoshi is also a heavyweight with busted killpower and fast
I like how Sonic agreed with you at 28:40
(In terms of range)
Sonic's forward smash = *Melee Marth's grab*
As a Ridley main, fun fact, the weak spot mechanic can actually be used for utility! It's very rare, but you can use it to survive an offstage kill move if the opponent can only throw out the one before recovering. Basically anything else is probably better, but it *can* be done and you can survive. It's a gimmick at best, but a neat one lol
The Greninja change was EXTREMELY fair.
For Duck Hunt, I honestly like the frame 1 can as a combo breaker. It's way more committal than Snake's grenades, considering their light weight, and it puts the duo in a much worse spot than Snake, whose considerable bulk offsets the damage taken. If I had to nerf them, what I'd do instead is make them a tad lighter in order to make can a riskier option as a combo breaker. Then again I can totally see why you'd want your proposed nerf instead, since it is dumb for a strategic zoner to get out of combos for free like this.
Another change I'd like that isn't a nerf but it'd be cool for the Gunmen to come out in a specific order like Oli's Pikmin so Duck Hunt and the enemy know who's going to come out next, and both sides can take advantage of it better. This takes away dumb stuff like the Gunmen not shooting the can when you need to because they have a shorter range then you were expecting, or losing a cool setup because you got a Gunman who fires at the wrong time. I love Gunman stuff but the RNG aspect makes it much more difficult and inconsistent than it needs to be.
I think a fun idea for a Steve nerf would be locking specific materials from mining behind upgrading your tools. Right now there’s not really any incentive to craft until you either break your tools or find a diamond, so that’s basically all you’re doing. I think it would make more sense to actually make you progress and upgrade your tools, you start with wood and it can only mine dirt wood and stone. Once you get stone tools, only then do you unlock iron, which also means he’s not starting with the most powerful parts of his kit. Then obviously after stone you can craft iron tools, which unlocks gold redstone and diamonds. Also if you break your tool and are mining with your hands, you can only mine dirt and wood, not even stone, so you either have to save materials to craft new ones, or start all over again.
It also makes early game tools more important since you actually have to use them to fight with. Instead of just ignoring the enemy to mine a diamond, you have to actually get the enemy off you with wood and stone so you have time to get better tools. And since you don’t start with iron, you can’t just cheese it with minecarts either, you do need to scrap a bit.
Also this is less of a nerf but I think it would be cool that if you have both a diamond and a gold ingot you can choose to craft one or the other instead of defaulting to diamond. So basically after getting iron, you’re choosing between greater power or greater speed.
How many people heard the nerds he would do to their main and thought “But they need it”
Funny enough, Hero exists
5:05 I'd make the move have more start up lag when it's uncharged, you never se Samus's players do the maxed charge shot and can't blame them, uncharged charge shot it's really oppresive
MockRock: "I don't wanna hurt Ice Climber's elaborate combos. That's what makes Ice Climbers, Ice Climbers"
Also MockRock: "Let's increase the charge time of THE reason to play Samus"
I don't think the Charge Shot _should_ be the reason to play Samus though, that's the big difference
I think ironically the Pit changes might make them a bit more alike by taking away Dark Pit's arrow->dash attack combos. On the other hand I suppose the changes themselves would be fairly severe Pit loses key kill confirms, while Dark Pit has a significantly weakened core neutral tool and punish tool.
For Steve, I don't think he should keep his diamond when he loses a stock. Isn't the whole point of dying in Minecraft that you lose your stuff?
I thought you looked actually really nice with the longer hair. It definitely fits your vibe better, but the one you have now is fine too ofc! ^^
For an alternative way to nerf everyone, just enable custom balancing.
Alternative Samus idea: lower charge shot range
I think if minecart became a projectile rather than a command grab, that would be huge. The fact that it can behave like flare blitz without the risk, a mixup on shield, a projectile command grab, can just drag you to the depths of hell, and forces you to mash is a bit much.
I do honestly like that it can scoop up opponents because that's a really interesting design for a move, I just wish it was a hitgrab instead of a proper command grab so it could still be shielded.
I thought every move had a chance to trip, I remember tripping others with Inkling's Forward air
There are other moves besides down tilts with random tripping chances, yes, they tend to have the highest odds though
@@MockRockTalk oh wowzers! I wonder which ones Inkling has (If they all can't trip)
Any moves above a certain knockback threshold but that don't lift the opponent off the ground have a baseline 7% chance to trip, but certain moves have a higher chance. Inkling doesn't actually have any moves with a higher-than-normal tripping chance so you must've gotten that 7% chance.
@@SSM24_ oh cool! and wowzers! That's amazing!
There is something deeply discomforting about calling Yoshi an "it".
I absolutely love these videos. I’m not even very good at Smash but I still find these videos to be very informative and entertaining. I think it‘s your voice - it’s very relaxing. I don’t know why but I just love watching these videos. Not even as background noise. Like, MockRock videos are some of the only videos I will give my full, undivided attention to. Keep up the good work.