If you’re ever injured in an accident, you can check out Morgan & Morgan. To start your claim in 8 clicks or less without leaving your couch, visit ForThePeople.com/MockRock Thanks for watching everyone! Ganondorf can be a contentious character in the Smash series on both sides, what did you think of this moveset concept? *Patreon:* www.patreon.com/mockrock *Second channel:* ruclips.net/user/mockrocktalk *Twitter:* twitter.com/MrMockRock *Twitch:* www.twitch.tv/mockrocktwitch *Teespring:* teespring.com/stores/mockrock *TimeBolt affiliate link* (excellent software I use to speed up editing on my videos, use code "MOCKROCK" for a discount): mockrock--timebolt.thrivecart.com/order-page/
Mockrock, We've talked about this before, don't die during a recording. That includes wearing something that makes you sweat enough to deliquesce. No one here wants to see you die. Well, except Kevin. But honestly, F%$k you Kevin. Other than that, this video was simply top-notch. I can tell how much research and planning went into creating this character, and the end result is a genuinely amazing sounding character, and a very entertaining watch. Honestly, if I went detail about everything I liked here, I'd just sound like a fanboy.
Ganondorf and Sonic are perfect examples of how being last minute additions in one game can ruin how they are represented in future games because the devs refuse to change movesets too drastically unless you're Pit
It's a shame really, ganon being a clone and for 17 years they kept him on how he was. Sonic moves.... is just very boring and campy. Hopefully they change him in the future games with frontiers moveset.
@@Mahdi12 they also need to nerf sonic’s speed. He should still be the fastest character obviously, but the gap between him and the second fastest character is comparable to the gap between the second fastest character and the slowest character. That’s a little excessive. Nerf it from 3.85 to around 3 or so in the next game. It’ll make him less campy.
This is actually an incredibly common misconception on Sonic. Most of it has nothing to do with Sonic being the last new character added but rather Sakurai basing it so closely on the older games where the only way Sonic damaged enemies was in ball form
I honestly didn't have that in mind at all haha, but I get it. There's actually not a single genuinely new thing in that move other than the final slash, but it's a bunch of familiar stuff recombined in a way that I'm actually a bit surprised we haven't seen before
The incorporation of Dead Man's Volley in so many different moves, and letting it include all projectiles, is such a brilliant idea. It's hard to say, but I feel like that would add a lot of fun variety to projectile counterplay, for both people present. An insanely clean presentation on a topic I hear talked about a lot, but never given as much depth as it deserves until now. Loved the vid, amazing work
I'm not a fan of adding Dead Man's Volley through a few random moves instead of as a dedicated special move. But, I do love the idea of him reflecting any projectile to turn that into a back-and-forth volley too. I never thought of that before, and it's not a mechanic that Smash has really taken advantage of.
Not just "Bad Captain Falcon". In every game since Brawl, he's been wholly outclassed as a slow, heavy damage dealer, the very role he's supposed to be good at. First, by Snake and King DeDeDe; then, by Bowser and DK; and now, by Incineroar, Byleth, and especially Kazuya.
For me he is the better captain falcon. Ik it sounds crazy but I play a lot better with ganondorf than captain falcon. Offstage KOs and combos are just easier with ganondorf for me.
This was great! After the Link moveset I was a little afraid that you’d try to put too much into Gannondorf, but all you really did that was crazy was adding a dead man’s volley mechanic that acts as a very useful tool for his overall design, and acts an iconic reference! And everything else was just some solid moves that sold him as a cunning, sword swinging, powerful, sorcerer! Your moveset hit it right on the mark.
Appreciate it! Yeah, the Link mechanics were specifically meant to invoke some of the puzzle-solving aspect of the Zelda series, I think if Ganondorf comes across a dungeon puzzle he's just gonna blow it up lol
@@MrMockRockYou forgot one thing though (Bad, maybe mid, joke incoming); For his F-Smash, he has to yell "DORIYAH!" In all seriousness, I LOVE this moveset. It's a bit more complex than he is now, but it's as complex as he should be. Also, Ganondorf's existing moveset should be slapped onto Black Shadow, as you said. Any modders would have a great time implementing this and you Link moveset
I feel like we should either give his old moveset to Black Shadow or make another, more accurate Ganondorf and just have both coexist. Kinda like they did with the three separate Links or with Sheik & Zelda.
@@linkonedgell894 Giving Toon Ganon the old moveset would be a bad idea. Toon Ganondorf could have a unique moveset. Giving the old moves to Black Shadow is a much better idea.
I'm down with most of these ideas, though I'd argue the more accurate Ganondorf should instead be blue pig Ganon to link (no pun intended) back to the classic games (since he was there first release-wise) and make the 2 stand out more from each other.
If they do ever give Ganondorf a full overhaul like this, they need to also add Black Shadow and give him the old Ganondorf moveset because a lot of fans including myself would miss that old moveset.
Building off that, one idea I had was that since Incineroar likely won't make the next Smash game, maybe some moves could be taken from him as well. Black Shadow Ganondorf with some Revenge equivalent sounds FUN.
@@Dante...I mean, they cut Mewtwo, and almost did it twice, and Mewtwo is way more popular than incin, I wouldn't say any Pokémon except Pikachu and Jiggs are a lock
After seeing the success of ultimate. If I were in Nintendo's shoes. THERE IS NO WAY ON EARTH IM CUTTING ANYONE EVER AGAIN! I AM ADDING MORE CHARACTERS AND REMOVING NONE!
Holy crap; this is the best ganondorf concept I’ve seen. I love the idea of reflecting attacks and throwing projectiles being normals; as if it’s just something normal for ganondorf.
I really like this design, it feels a lot more cohesive than the Link one. I'm not always a fan of "grab bag" style movesets where it feels like every attack is made of shoehorned-in references, but this does a great job of avoiding that problem while still pulling from a huge range of his source material. Very cool stuff.
This is so good!! Amazing work. I have a few notes/questions: I feel like Ganondorf’s TOTK costumes should use his full haired, secret stone, powered up form. Otherwise it looks like he’s holding back in a way that doesn’t hold for his other six outfits. With regard to his energy tennis, I think a better UI system would be that the first reflect that Ganondorf does puts it into that special state, it becomes unstable if the opponent hits it back, and on the third hit by Ganondorf, the projectile is removed from that state entirely, so it can no longer be hit back. And for the up smash and up airs that need to be reflected an even number of times for Ganondorf to have the last laugh, I’d make it two instead of four. It starts out in that energy tennis state, on first hit becomes unstable, and then on the second hit it exits that state and becomes a regular energy projectile. For the down smash, how much of that 60 second startup happens before you get the chance to charge it? In other words, how much “snake f smash” vibes does this give off? Finally, every DLC character comes with a stage. This wasn’t as big a deal for Link, but I want to point it out here because we have STILL never gotten a proper Villain’s Lair style stage in Smash. No Bowser’s castle, no Ganondorf’s castle. A stage that suits Ganondorf is almost as sorely needed as a proper Ganondorf himself, AND it opens us up to TOTK music in smash.
So just to clarify, for the Dead Man's Volley moves, when it splinters, it is removed from that state. I considered 2 instead of 4 for the latter, but that's not _nearly_ enough energy tennis for me, I wanted to strike a middle ground between every projectile stalling the game and still being able to feel like you're playing with the Zelda mechanic. No Snake fsmash vibes here, I'd need to do more research to give you the exact frame but you still need to time it perfectly. Stage design is a whole different can of worms, I agree a Castle or Tower stage would be awesome but that's a different video in my mind
@@MrMockRockfor ganon's down-smash, i feel a light windbox pulling other fighters into ganon if they're near him (think volcano kick windbox) could enhance it's use potential and also give other players the feeling of "oh shit, i need to run as fast as i can."
Fun fact: there are villain lair stages, just hidden as part of transformations. Bowser’s castle is part of the Paper Mario stage, and Dream Land GB goes to Mt Dedede. Having a proper one would be nice though. Fountain of Dreams, Halberd, Reset Bomb Forest, and Shadow Moses Island only count if you really squint.
It’s about time someone has done this, and if I had to pick a specific person it would definitely be mockrock. The mix of design knowledge and respect for the source material makes for an excellent video
Ganondorf seriously needs a huge overhaul on his move set due to two reasons: His moves look like captain falcon’s fighting moves, and there’s a lot of source material that allows Nintendo to reference since Ganondorf has a lot of moves from legend of Zelda
Maybe the reason for why Ganondorf ended up with a bizarre cloned moveset instead of either planning him from the very start as a unique character in Melee or saving him for Brawl is that, at the time, Ganondorf was only in one game (Ocarina of Time), and in that game, pretty sure all he did was float around, throw a big ball projectile, and show some vague darkness effects, and most of the other possible source moves in the series were actually done by Ganon (without the “dorf”), and yet so many fans wanted him anyway, so he was put in last-minute Now as for why he didn’t at least get that projectile in later games is something I cannot even begin to answer, but at the time, I guess making him a clone somewhat made sense??? (but at the same time, why not also reference stuff from his Ganon form in older games as well)
I’ve been looking forward too this so much as you do remake character videos like no other. Edit: watched the video. Fantastic editing and you did a great job conveying to the viewer what your intentions are for each moveslot. In terms of things that can be improved upon, I recommend giving forward air a landing hitbox just to sell the power of the move a bit more and making it so you can’t use neutral b if you’ve already grabbed the ledge previously (mostly to avoid stalling). Outside of that everything seems fine outside of nitpicks that aren’t really worth mentioning. I look forward to seeing Zelda, assuming you plan on doing it at some point.
Appreciate it! For forward air and forward smash, I actually did originally have shockwave hitboxes on them. I decided to remove them because a) nobody's mistaking those moves as weak to begin with haha, and b) it leaves room for moves that have shockwaves as a more intrinsic part of their identity to stand out more. As far as neutral special stalling goes, I'm not worried about it, Ultimate's one-time invincibility and regrab limit should prevent any serious issues. He can probably plank a little bit between Warlock's Defiance and uair, but eh, that's alright, a lot of characters can. For Zelda, we'll see. Completing the Triforce would be cool for sure, but I don't have a footage archive for some of her most important games and also suspect she'd be by far the least in-demand of the trio. Possibly though, if I can make it work at some point I will.
Being a last Minute Addition in melee really hurt Ganondorf. I wish he got a better Moveset. His Incarnation in TOTK would be such an AWESOME approach. This is gonna be a great watch!
I wouldn't even say that's the issue. The issue is the team absolutely refuses to make meaningful changes to him. Even if things were last minute, that doesn't excuse keeping so much the same two decades later. Things aren't "last minute" anymore. I understand the team wants to keep veterans the same for fear of alienating said characters player base, but that isn't an excuse when his entire player base would unanimously like them changed.
@@DarkAura19Except this ISN’T a unanimous decision. A lot of people REALLY enjoy Ganon as he is now. The Black Shadow approach is the only way to satisfy everyone, but at least it’s an option
@@DarkAura19 To kirbyx's point though, if Ganondorf hadn't been a last minute addition he wouldn't have been rushed in the first place. Also sorry but incorrect about things not being "last minute" anymore. Devs are still forced to crunch and make last minute decisions and calls due ot time.
I LOVE the idea for Side Special. Flame Choke is such a sick move that it's really hard to match that hype (even with the Up Special somewhat carrying on its legacy), but the charging boar and fire bat silhouettes are so cool. Specials that are different moves depending on if you are on the ground or in the air are something I'd really like to see more of in Smash 6, and you pulled it off excellently.
TOTK Ganondorf provides the most moveset potential imo, He could have a down special where he switches weapons, from a club, spear, and katana, and the actions of his normals or aerials (maybe his down aerial) His neutral special can be the Demon King Bow, pretty much like Link's bow except it is multi-shot (at most 3 based on his boss fight in totk), but like Byleth's failnaught it can't be cancelled once fully charged His side b could be the lunge he does in totk, but what he does depends on the weapon he has Up B, i have no idea, but probably that spin he does with his katana in totk
As someone who made a fan made interpretation of Ganondorf for Rivals of Aether that leaned towards more of a middle ground (retaining aspects of Smash Ganondorf I and my collaborater VVizard liked while also adding in tools that represented him in the rest of the series better), I am curious to see just how far Mockrock takes this design
I've seen that one! I get the approach and liked it for what it was, but I prefer to tackle these with a total scorched earth approach haha, very different philosophy
@MrMockRock after watching through the entire video, I really like the moveset you created! There are a lot of inspired ideas here that feel very fitting to the character, particularly the ways Dead Man's Volley was included in the moveset. Really enjoyed it.
I cannot stress how happy I am that you are making more of these. Through your content you've shown you've got some fantastic insights into character designs and those insights truly shine when tackling different ways these characters could be depicted in future games. Loved Link's, loved this one, hope to see many more in the future!
I love the concept for the up-taunt being a maniacal laugh. It would never happen during an actual battle, of course, but I'd love if it did the entire 30-second laugh from Wind Waker if left uninterrupted. Best taunt in the game, right there.
While I personally am more on the side of keeping just a few of his normal smash moves and would have gone for a more warlock-esc feel with sparcer weapon appearances, I really liked this. I particularly LOVED that back throw that thing sounds so raw, and I love how you incorperated the fire bats. Up tilt was another stand out move, I love the crossing blades. The animations for them also did feel pretty in line with Ganon's body language which I think is an important aspect of representation that tons of fan movesets tend to ignore. I loved pretty much all of his normals but while I did find a couple of the specials to be a bit bland and I think Float could easily just be inputted the same way as Peach's to free up Neutral B, I very much enjoyed this as a whole. As an idea, if you continue doing these specifically based on if the character got in as DLC, you could start covering stages and music as well. I imagine itd be a lot of extra work but your editing and ideas are so high quality that I think it could really round out these videos. (Also the fact we still dont have a Bowsers Castle or Ganons Tower is downright depressing)
You actually put the words right in my mouth! Body language is important! I'm a moveset designer myself. Not only idle stances, taunts and all that are important, but the posing during certain attacks, and the specific gestures and movements. Some characters will be frantic while others will be more direct and controlled. If that's what you were thinking about too, then it's definitely right.
imo since his float would be omnidirectional I think its better attached to the b button instead of holding down on the analog stick. That's what they did with Metwo in P+ and it feels super unintuitive - like, it definitely works, but it takes some time getting used to
I love how you gave all the moves such cool names. A completely unnecessary addition in the grand scheme of things but it adds so much imagery to the moves power and shows how much effort you put into the small details
I find myself enjoying this rework of Ganondorf's moveset and agree with your points about heavies in Smash. That being said, I thought of some ideas for a new mechanic for a future Smash game that could possibly put heavies at less of a disadvantage: Overwhelm The mechanic is based primarily on both characters' weight stats, and it affects things like grabbing another character, grabbing the ledge, tripping, bury times, and armor. Basically, when a heavyweight character is fighting a lightweight character, depending on the weight difference, the heavy character may be able to avoid getting ledge trumped, maintain a grab for longer, be able to mash out of a grab more easily or even smack away a light enough character just for trying to grab them, have a chance of being able to cancel a trip entirely, mash out of bury easier, and armor through more powerful attacks. It's not really a solution to them being combo food, but it gives them more options to turn the tables on lightweights that would originally run rings around them.
This looks awesome MockRock! The moveset is very cool, it plays very nicely with Ganondorf's traits, his power, his intimidation factor, his capability for burst movement despite being generally slow, and his ability to twist a bit the rules in order to win, I love the fact taht the Up Smash and Air can be used as projectiles, it's something that he can use to fight at longer range, but considering how unusual it's to use (and the fact that you have to commit to a slower move to use it) makes it a lot less spammable than a typical projectil, for Ganondorf is not an truly defensive campy option, it's essentially a flex to force people to play his evil tennis game. Also the float is always cool.
honestly hoping these kinds of videos become a regular series, while i don't necessarily agree with the concepts others come up with sometimes, it's always fun to see what people come up with regardless
Agreed bigtime, Im usually more open minded with these so its rare I dont like at least something from them so theres always somethings I can take away from these
I'd like.to.see.a.version of 'Dorf with a moveset balanced around having Bowser's tough-guy armor. Maybe not as strong as turtle-dad's or his hyper during warlock punch, but weak attacks shouldn't even phase him during certain actions
Great video overall! I did have a similar idea for his neutral special, but it combined the float, reflector, and dead man's volley together, though this was when I was picturing only one move being reworked rather than his entire kit. It would be cool if maybe Ganondorf still got a unique move or two in his float state, but I still think this was a great moveset!
So, first off, great video! I love most of your reasoning and references in his moveset. However, while I think it is a good character concept for a new character, I think a bit more could be used for the new DLC character concept. I have no complaints with your Link moveset, but your Ganondorf moveset was a bit underwhelming when it came to more complex gimmicks. So, if you don't mind, I'm just gonna list off some ideas I cooked up over these 4 weeks the video has been out. Side special - Just replace the flaming bat with the gloom dragon seen at 39:45. Just makes more sense to me. Up special - Rise of the Demon - Ganondorf pulls out his trident and starts spinning it above his head. He floats up slowly for a moment before disappearing and reappearing some distance above where he was when he vanished. It's basically a fancier teleport with (what I think is) a good reference. Down special - Phantom Ganondorf (the biggest one) - When the move is used, it spawns a phantom of Ganondorf where he is standing. The appearance depends on the alt used. This phantom will use the last move that was used by Ganondorf after spawning, in 1 second intervals. It does not matter whether the phantom is airbourne or not, meaning it can use grounded attacks in the air or aerials on the ground. These phantoms will not move (meaning they will float midair), but if the last move used was a movement option, it will function normally and after the phantom will teleport back to it's original position. There will be a cooldown of 10 seconds along with a limit of 2 phantoms. The phantoms will disappear in one attack and have weaker attacks. And y'know what? Screw it, they will also use the final smash when Ganondorf activates it. So... waddya think everyone?
I am a Ganondorf main, and I love his moveset, despite having so many weaknesses. However, I would love to see this well thought out moveset in the current state of the game. If there is another smash title (lol), this would be it! Make ganon at least a mid tier please ^^
If they wanted an evil, heavyweight echo fighter for Captain Falcon, why not transplant Ganon's moveset onto F-Zero's own Black Shadow? It'd be a perfect fit, from where I'm standing.
@@kevingriffith6011 Problem is, who actually cares that much about Black Shadow? There's a reason Capt. Falcon is the only F-Zero rep, the series is basically dead and wasn't even that popular when it was alive. Considering all of the well-known characters that haven't even made a smash game, there's just no room for him.
@@blazefactor6849 The same could be said about Plant, or a handful of the fire emblem characters, or Richter. There are a lot of "almost no-one cares" characters in smash already.
@@kevingriffith6011 Those are still from franchises that actually exist in the modern era. The last mainline F-Zero game to be released came out almost two decades ago.
I don't have a problem with Ganondorf being in introduced to the series as a clone to Falcon. He was a last-minute addition, the melee team was already killing themselves with the 2 year development time and it's not like Melee didn't already have a bunch of clones. What I DO have a problem with is keeping him that way for the series moving forward.
these types of videos made me do something similar of my own volition. i made a document a while ago, to sort give a take of sonic being updated as a frontiers moveset. obviously i didn't make it public, just shared it with a few friends, and i didn't make nearly the same details you did. however i am still relatively proud of myself, and i have to thank you for the inspiration (still have the document if anyone wants to see)
Have you seen the Ganondorf on Rivals of Aether Workshop by Artist of Seer and VVizard? They basically took some elements of Smash Ganondorf but made it a lot more inspired and gave him a trident and allowed him to hover.
I mean ..for your intro, being added in brawl works since melee he was only a clone due to being a literal last minute addition. If it was decided "next game" and they had more time to make him, hed be fine
I think making him a weapon master would also future proof his moveset to some extend. If the next Zelda comes out there is a good chance he'll wield a weapon that is already part of this moveset and thus they wouldn't need big changes to make his next design work.
These videos are a real double edged sword. The movesets you've come up with look amazing and like they'd be really fun to play, but sadly there'll never be that opportunity. Hoping you make one of these for Kirby one day ❤
23:10 wait a minute.... why's Ganondorf doing the spirit bomb?? Side note: I'm watching this video and the Link video back to back and I'm honestly super impressed that you put all of this together yourself, you're truly inspirational MockRock!! (Especially for me as I'm hoping to design games myself, hence why I love watching these video!!)
Im really conflicted with smash ganon.on one hand along with bowser he is Nintendos most iconic vilain(and one of the most iconic villain of gaming in general) so he absolutely deserves a canon accurate moveset but on the other hand he is my most favourite character to play and i dont think there is any way to make him more fun
I've heard many people (I think including MockRock) offer solutions to preserve the current Ganondorf moveset in Smash, by moving it to a different character, the one I remember being another character from F-ZERO (forgive me, I don't remember their name)
This would be so cool, I love the "mind games" aspect and how you gave him two reflectors/teleports/projectiles instead of just one of each. I'm especially a fan of the teleports, I love using Dimensional Cape to mess with people : )
This is actually a phenomenal take on the character that I think would actually get me to play him. I love that you don't sacrifice the "heft" of his Smash current incarnation, but he's not completely basic either.
This has to be one of if, not the most anticipated video your followers (including me) wanted to see. I recall that Twitter post you made on September 14 where Ganondorf was one of four characters you want to see overhauled in the next Smash Bros installment. Do you plan on doing the other three for this series on your channel? Keep up the phenomenal work, good sir!
i know why you didn’t do it, but i think it woulda been REALLY funny if you replaced the ganondorf warlock punch in the intro with the new neutral special
I hate to be that guy because someone always brings it up, but if you really want to keep a stronger, slower version of Captain Falcon's moveset with black magic motifs on a slightly larger character who's also a villain, you have Black Shadow right there. You could even make his taunts those stupid dance moves / arm flailing he does in GX's cutscenes. Final Smash is the Black Bull flattening you into the ground as opposed to the Blue Falcon knocking you away. It's a really great idea. Wait, wait, hold on. Did you just make his Aerial Side-B a Wing Smash? Fast flying bat tackle that can be angled slightly. Hmmm. And you yourself brought up Black Shadow. Cool
I absolutely love this moveset. I feel like it perfectly encapsulates how it would feel to be Ganondorf on the battlefield. I particularly love how all of his special moves are burst movement options - Ganondorf in the Zelda games is a formidable opponent because he takes calculated risks to surge towards or away from opponents, allowing him to effectively skip neutral if done precisely. He's a strategist, and this moveset seems to reflect that very well.
Not sure if you read comments after the first few weeks, but in case you do: It’d be really cool if you talked about some ideas you had back when you wanted to create your own platform fighter. Even if it was a casual MockRockTalk deal, I just like hearing you talk about your game design ideas. Plus while I’m pretty awful with fighting games and would never be able to design one, having ideas for them has always been fun. A more traditional Danganrompa-inspired fighter about a group of college students being forced to kill each other by a demon using weapons it provides them, and a platform fighter about an anime tournament arc where allies and enemies alike fight for a wish. There’s plenty of cool creative setups and potential characters for fighting games that are fun to hear about.
I do read them haha, I know there's an audience for that idea but it's probably quite a small one tbh, I've tended to sneak bits and pieces of my old ideas into videos where I can instead
I remember watching a Duke of Dorks video a while ago where he suggested that Ganon have a 2 hit jab; A trident swing followed by a stab. If it didn’t connect that would be all, but if the stab connected it would skewer the foe and act as a command grab, at which point Ganon would raise the trident up at a 30 degree angle and punch the foe so hard they flew off the trident. That idea alone was so cool and perfect for the character that I’d dissatisfied if it never happens. However, this idea of a backhand for the jab/Nair is also so good that now I’d love a backhand into stab combo as his jab with the same reflector effect on the first hit, which also makes it more difficult for Ganon to spam a reflector
i'm glad people are coming around to how utterly lacking zelda representation is in smash. zelda has 6 characters, 3 are clones of each other, two were originally designed as one character, and one is worse captain falcon.
Bro RUclips has been on some low grade crack lately, I love this kind of video and yet zero indication of your uploads in my home or sub feeds smh. At least I can watch it now though. RUclips, please do better.
Great vid as always but a few ideas and alterations I’d make Down special: Phantom ganon, ganondorf summons a phantom behind him holding either a sword, spear or club/ great sword which can be changed by angling the move, the sword would be the middle ground good coverage and moderate kill power, spear would have most range and club/great sword would obviously hit like a tank. I think it could parallel quite nicely to Zelda as I’d rework hers to be less oppressive but spawn in front of Zelda to provide additional protection Neutral special: dead man’s volley, low level charge would function like the one in oot which can be reflected, mid level would be a small flurry of lighting/mallace balls that have unimpressive kill power but great damage, and a final charge where he punches the ground in a shockwave also found in oot functioning sort of a big dumb powerful kill move but would still be useful and attached to a move slot with some great strengths Up smash: basically his current one just with his club or respective sword Down smash: An attack where ganondorf where he drives his respective club or great sword into the ground similar to ike’s eruption but with coverage behind him, taking inspiration from one of his attacks in totk Side b: probably keep it flame choke just to keep some of the old ganon as it’s one of his only moves that feels fitting in his current incarnation and is still a cool, sinister, damaging and evil move, just remove the free fall thing Those are just some of my ideas but hopefully didn’t try to undermine any of your suggestions, great ideas all in all
There is one thing that is kinda off for me in this move set, and it relates to the Up Smash, Up Air, and Neutral Special. I feel dead man’s volley should be mapped to the neutral special, not as a weird up smash/air. The Uair version specifically doesn’t seem to have much use, as it just stalls Ganondorf in the air for longer, making it easier to hit him with his awful movement. Giving Ganondorf more traditional and powerful Up smash/air and having Dead man’s volley be his neutral special makes more sense to me, as you can then use it whenever. As for his current Neutral special you have him, the float can just be an additional movement option like Peach or Daisy’s float, though maybe a bit different
Absolutely love your rework, from the visuals to the moveset and mechanics. Sounds like he'd be even more violent and vicious than Ridley, and I love that.
While watching the video I was thinking of ways to implement gloom's passive effect, because I've always found it's ability to temporarily remove hearts to be a really cool idea. That being said it doesn’t really work with smash percentages. So the idea i though of was having it temporarily lock the opponents special moves instead. Each time ganon lands certain moves it locks a special move for 10 seconds in order of nuetral special, down special, side special, and finally, most damning of all up special. It would give a really uniquely oppressive bonus effect to Ganondorf's moves while making up for some of his short comings. You don't need to worry about a zone if their zoning moves are turned off and you don’t need amazing gimps if they can't use their recovery. It would also give added element of risk to his deadman's volley as if he loses the volley, his specials get locked instead. Perhaps it'd be a bit too much with the moveset sketched up here but it would be really cool if nothing else. This kind of sealing off moves could also be a really cool gimmick on a rework of Zelda.
Bit of a stretch to make that Smash's version of Gloom; HOWEVER, that does remind me a lot of a different Zelda mechanic, JInxing. The thing in Classic Zelda, Majora's Mask, and Wind Waker, where Link gets in bubble poison and he can't use his sword, or in WInd Waker any moves.
I've been a Ganon main since Melee and I was mad that Ganon wasn't the OG Smash 64 back in the day. I would be totally fine with Ganon's current moveset being given to Black Shadow if it meant Ganon had all this. I've been dying to play energy tennis. 3:
I really love that Warlock's Defiance is his neutral special, because it means that's what kirby gets from his copy. I love imagining Kirby levitating in the air, with his arms crossed, acting all tough.
Here's how I would handle this: I want them to make a trailer for a new fighter for the next game. The trailer opens with the artwork of villains from the K rool trailer, and the new fighter is revealed to be Black Shadow from F-Zero, and we get footage of him battling Captain Falcon. But fans will notice all of his moves are exactly like Smash 4 Ganondorf. The trailer will end with Link and Zelda looking at Black Shadow with confusion, before getting suprised by Totk Ganondorf looming behind them. They battle and now Ganondorf's new moveset is revealed. Essentially while officially Black Shadow will be the new character, he'll really just be old Ganon, and Ganondorf will be the real new character. I think this is perfect because everyone will be happy and it will feel nice to give F-Zero fans a treat
if this is going to become a series, i would be interested in seeing Ike in one of these, the two main reasons are: 1. while his gameplay doesn't have as much miss potential as Link and Ganondorf, he could still have a good amount of changes to make him feel like the heavy hitting beast of the Fire Emblem roster. 2. i would like to see your dream archetype fully detailed, the heavy sword fighter with a projectile.
This and your Link reworks were some of the best Smash moveset reworks I've ever seen. I really appreciate the names as well. You'd better do Zelda next and complete the Triforce.
I think having a similar property as Zelda's final smash, pass a certain %, Ganondorf's final smash should straight up kill. (Unless you had in mind a crazy launch that already kills early)
17:40 No, I think a trident wouldn't have fit him in TOTK. He had only Japanese (or japanese-looking) weapons. A Katana, a Naginata, an Oni club, because he's a real demon, and a giant bow fit for a warlord.
I have an issue with the side special. Flame choke is a direct reference to how he killed the sage of water in Twilight Princess during his botched execution. Realistically, Nintendo would keep this move as side special even on a completely new Ganondorf as they specifically chose to reference it.
The premise of this video is not "Nintendo would choose to keep X" though, there's nothing to keep, Ganondorf doesn't exist. Killing the Sage is represented in this moveset (which itself isn't a hard necessity), but there's nothing dictating that it has to be through Side Special.
Eh... Mixing the Dead Man's Volley into multiple moves, which now require a fiddly directional prompt at the end of an up-smash or NAir? To quote MockRock at 28:40 "a bit fiddly for Ganondorf; he's here to hit stuff". The Dead Man's Volley should just take the neutral B slot. That's more straightforward. I personally see no reason why a 3rd jump float tech is a bad idea. Ganondorf is a heavyweight with slower attacks and more knockback than Peach, so his combo potential with a float tech is not that big of a deal. The floating should at least appear in the run animation. MR wants to slow Ganondorf's run speed even further, but doesn't mention changing the the run animations, which is even less imposing. At least if he's floating there's the implication that he chooses NOT to run, and would rather just float at you menacingly. Love the idea of making the jab a reflector though. That's cool.
A couple of months have passed since the release of this video, I don't know if you're still reading comments, but I'll share my thoughts anyways. I decided to give it a rewatch; I still like your concept a lot; simple, yet hard to master. A playstyle faithful to his character, that pushes the players to constantly think on strategies while also keeping a fast pased game. I loved your rework on the side B, full of cheese; and your take on dead man's volley is brilliant, honestly. I find the frame data kind of problematic though. Why making him slower? I mean, yea, he has more range now, but for how you depicted it, his moves also are laggier and will require of more precise spacing to be effective. If you wanted Ganondorf to be a powerhouse, then, I find this excesive. You could solve this by letting him keep a float cancel; Ganon doesn't have the same tools that Peach has, or the same speed; he couldn't rush you as well and combos shouldn't be an issue imo. This also applies to his projectiles. How is he supposed to setup his projectile mind games when playing against a brawler? If they take half a second to come out, you ain't going to hit anyone. Great video anyways. I've never seen this amount of effort put on a fan moveset. Wish for the lords of Nintendo to hear our prayers!
Now that I'm hearing it from you, I kind of feel the same way, too. Of course he's going to be a heavyweight, and make that same heavyweight trade-off, but he doesn't need to be the ULTIMATE POWER CHARACTER in order to be Ganondorf. I'd lean more into that "gotcha" feel rather than make him a heavyweight among heavyweights.
This is the BEST Ganondorf moveset I've ever seen. Two things to add that was directly inspired by the footage you used in your final smash: 1) the minions summoned during during the final smash should just be from whichever games the used skin is from (SUPER DLC TREATMENT) 2) if the game ends with the final smash, the animation should zoom into a close-up of Ganondorf and STAY THERE for the victory screen (also SORRY DLC TREATMENT). The character of Ganondorf deserves top DLC treatment after all this time
I actually think the next Smash game *should* start the roster from scratch anyway. There's nowhere to really go from Ultimate that's both more of the same and interesting/worth the trouble. A clean break with minimal attachments to previous entries and a smaller, more focused roster built from the ground up (both in terms of character selection and move set) is what I think the series needs in order to make a new installment worth getting into. I say minimal attachments, because I think there are a handful of iconic things that ought to carry over, but I could be persuaded to go about as minimal as "literally just Falcon Knee" there.
As soon as you mentioned phantom ganon I imagined him doing a projection move where you have to attack the real ganon or get punished and you can press B to swap places with the fake
Fantastic video, only thing I would change would be the name of the final smash. Instead of tri force corruption maybe something like “Behold, The Demon King!” Or “Calamity of the Demon King”, something more foreboding that matches his King/Leader status considering he sends his army after the caught opponent, as well as something that uses his title proper
Hey Mockrock. I'm having some trouble reading the side text on Mobile due to the font size. It's not a super big deal and it gets much kore legible in full screen, but I thought I'd let you know.
I knew that may be a bit of an issue, but it is what it is, there's nothing in there that I'm not saying out loud and I don't think it'd be worth the extra screen space to make the text a lot bigger.
![Link Really Needs A New Smash Moveset. [No Tears of the Kingdom Spoilers]](http://i.ytimg.com/vi/CRzflRd6Ia4/mqdefault.jpg)
![Link Really Needs A New Smash Moveset. [No Tears of the Kingdom Spoilers]](/img/tr.png)
If you’re ever injured in an accident, you can check out Morgan & Morgan. To start your claim in 8 clicks or less without leaving your couch, visit ForThePeople.com/MockRock
Thanks for watching everyone! Ganondorf can be a contentious character in the Smash series on both sides, what did you think of this moveset concept?
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Mockrock, We've talked about this before, don't die during a recording. That includes wearing something that makes you sweat enough to deliquesce. No one here wants to see you die. Well, except Kevin. But honestly, F%$k you Kevin.
Other than that, this video was simply top-notch. I can tell how much research and planning went into creating this character, and the end result is a genuinely amazing sounding character, and a very entertaining watch. Honestly, if I went detail about everything I liked here, I'd just sound like a fanboy.
How did u get sponsored by a law firm lmaooo?? Seems so random for smash content but glad ur getting ur $$
@@beanmr9904GETTHATBAGGETTHATCASHGETTHATDOUGH
This is the absolute most unexpected sponsor for this channel honestly
Hi im Saul Goodman. Did you know you have rights? The constitution says you do.
Ganondorf and Sonic are perfect examples of how being last minute additions in one game can ruin how they are represented in future games because the devs refuse to change movesets too drastically unless you're Pit
It's a shame really, ganon being a clone and for 17 years they kept him on how he was. Sonic moves.... is just very boring and campy. Hopefully they change him in the future games with frontiers moveset.
@@Mahdi12 They're not. They've had over 20 years to change Ganondorf and 15 to change Sonic, but they refused to.
@@Mahdi12 they also need to nerf sonic’s speed. He should still be the fastest character obviously, but the gap between him and the second fastest character is comparable to the gap between the second fastest character and the slowest character. That’s a little excessive. Nerf it from 3.85 to around 3 or so in the next game. It’ll make him less campy.
This is actually an incredibly common misconception on Sonic. Most of it has nothing to do with Sonic being the last new character added but rather Sakurai basing it so closely on the older games where the only way Sonic damaged enemies was in ball form
@@christianshark6678 It's also because animating him in a ball for most of his attacks saves time as well as pulling animations from other characters.
MOM WAKE UP, MOCKROCK IS COMPLAINING ABOUT GANON AGAIN!
What’s new
@@Pennsylvaniapride-it’s constructive criticism this time
This is the content I subscribed for
@@serspritztomb damn you got me there
You must be waking up your mom A LOT
"Here he's portrayed as a bit grimmer, and more sinister.", he says as he pulls up the goofiest looking shot of Ganondorf in the entire video.
Fr
I do like that Ganondorf's Up special seems like a mix of Link and Zelda's Up Specials
I honestly didn't have that in mind at all haha, but I get it. There's actually not a single genuinely new thing in that move other than the final slash, but it's a bunch of familiar stuff recombined in a way that I'm actually a bit surprised we haven't seen before
Thats actually such a cool detail I didnt think about, its like hes trying to one up them
@@MrMockRockif it ain't broke dont fix it
@@Saben.C-SpoonKeyword : Trying
The incorporation of Dead Man's Volley in so many different moves, and letting it include all projectiles, is such a brilliant idea. It's hard to say, but I feel like that would add a lot of fun variety to projectile counterplay, for both people present. An insanely clean presentation on a topic I hear talked about a lot, but never given as much depth as it deserves until now. Loved the vid, amazing work
I'm not a fan of adding Dead Man's Volley through a few random moves instead of as a dedicated special move. But, I do love the idea of him reflecting any projectile to turn that into a back-and-forth volley too. I never thought of that before, and it's not a mechanic that Smash has really taken advantage of.
I just hate how Ganon was done so dirty for four games now still to this day being "Bad Captain Falcon"
same!!!!😭💔
Agree. He's my Favorite Villain and he was done so dirty.
Not just "Bad Captain Falcon". In every game since Brawl, he's been wholly outclassed as a slow, heavy damage dealer, the very role he's supposed to be good at. First, by Snake and King DeDeDe; then, by Bowser and DK; and now, by Incineroar, Byleth, and especially Kazuya.
For me he is the better captain falcon. Ik it sounds crazy but I play a lot better with ganondorf than captain falcon. Offstage KOs and combos are just easier with ganondorf for me.
@Leeloo_the_foxthis is EXACTLY what i've been telling ppl
This was great! After the Link moveset I was a little afraid that you’d try to put too much into Gannondorf, but all you really did that was crazy was adding a dead man’s volley mechanic that acts as a very useful tool for his overall design, and acts an iconic reference! And everything else was just some solid moves that sold him as a cunning, sword swinging, powerful, sorcerer! Your moveset hit it right on the mark.
Appreciate it! Yeah, the Link mechanics were specifically meant to invoke some of the puzzle-solving aspect of the Zelda series, I think if Ganondorf comes across a dungeon puzzle he's just gonna blow it up lol
@@MrMockRockYou forgot one thing though (Bad, maybe mid, joke incoming);
For his F-Smash, he has to yell "DORIYAH!"
In all seriousness, I LOVE this moveset. It's a bit more complex than he is now, but it's as complex as he should be. Also, Ganondorf's existing moveset should be slapped onto Black Shadow, as you said. Any modders would have a great time implementing this and you Link moveset
Do sonic next
I feel like we should either give his old moveset to Black Shadow or make another, more accurate Ganondorf and just have both coexist. Kinda like they did with the three separate Links or with Sheik & Zelda.
Put his current moveset on toon Ganon, then give us this one as the real thing.
@@linkonedgell894Twilight Princess’s Ganondorf would fit more with less necessary changes, since he only uses a single sword rather than two.
@@linkonedgell894 Giving Toon Ganon the old moveset would be a bad idea. Toon Ganondorf could have a unique moveset. Giving the old moves to Black Shadow is a much better idea.
I’d be cool to just let the Moveset Cease to be Entirely
I'm down with most of these ideas, though I'd argue the more accurate Ganondorf should instead be blue pig Ganon to link (no pun intended) back to the classic games (since he was there first release-wise) and make the 2 stand out more from each other.
If they do ever give Ganondorf a full overhaul like this, they need to also add Black Shadow and give him the old Ganondorf moveset because a lot of fans including myself would miss that old moveset.
Building off that, one idea I had was that since Incineroar likely won't make the next Smash game, maybe some moves could be taken from him as well. Black Shadow Ganondorf with some Revenge equivalent sounds FUN.
@@pottedplant7460 While that does sound fun, I don't think they'll cut Incineroar. The only Pokemon I could see them cutting is Pichu.
@@Dante...I mean, they cut Mewtwo, and almost did it twice, and Mewtwo is way more popular than incin, I wouldn't say any Pokémon except Pikachu and Jiggs are a lock
@@Helios2737charizard def wont get cut
After seeing the success of ultimate. If I were in Nintendo's shoes. THERE IS NO WAY ON EARTH IM CUTTING ANYONE EVER AGAIN! I AM ADDING MORE CHARACTERS AND REMOVING NONE!
Holy crap; this is the best ganondorf concept I’ve seen. I love the idea of reflecting attacks and throwing projectiles being normals; as if it’s just something normal for ganondorf.
the ganon up tilt in your intro hit just a little different this time
I really like this design, it feels a lot more cohesive than the Link one. I'm not always a fan of "grab bag" style movesets where it feels like every attack is made of shoehorned-in references, but this does a great job of avoiding that problem while still pulling from a huge range of his source material. Very cool stuff.
This is so good!! Amazing work. I have a few notes/questions:
I feel like Ganondorf’s TOTK costumes should use his full haired, secret stone, powered up form. Otherwise it looks like he’s holding back in a way that doesn’t hold for his other six outfits.
With regard to his energy tennis, I think a better UI system would be that the first reflect that Ganondorf does puts it into that special state, it becomes unstable if the opponent hits it back, and on the third hit by Ganondorf, the projectile is removed from that state entirely, so it can no longer be hit back. And for the up smash and up airs that need to be reflected an even number of times for Ganondorf to have the last laugh, I’d make it two instead of four. It starts out in that energy tennis state, on first hit becomes unstable, and then on the second hit it exits that state and becomes a regular energy projectile.
For the down smash, how much of that 60 second startup happens before you get the chance to charge it? In other words, how much “snake f smash” vibes does this give off?
Finally, every DLC character comes with a stage. This wasn’t as big a deal for Link, but I want to point it out here because we have STILL never gotten a proper Villain’s Lair style stage in Smash. No Bowser’s castle, no Ganondorf’s castle. A stage that suits Ganondorf is almost as sorely needed as a proper Ganondorf himself, AND it opens us up to TOTK music in smash.
So just to clarify, for the Dead Man's Volley moves, when it splinters, it is removed from that state. I considered 2 instead of 4 for the latter, but that's not _nearly_ enough energy tennis for me, I wanted to strike a middle ground between every projectile stalling the game and still being able to feel like you're playing with the Zelda mechanic.
No Snake fsmash vibes here, I'd need to do more research to give you the exact frame but you still need to time it perfectly.
Stage design is a whole different can of worms, I agree a Castle or Tower stage would be awesome but that's a different video in my mind
@@MrMockRockfor ganon's down-smash, i feel a light windbox pulling other fighters into ganon if they're near him (think volcano kick windbox) could enhance it's use potential and also give other players the feeling of "oh shit, i need to run as fast as i can."
@@buttery_gooch6100% agree
Fun fact: there are villain lair stages, just hidden as part of transformations. Bowser’s castle is part of the Paper Mario stage, and Dream Land GB goes to Mt Dedede.
Having a proper one would be nice though. Fountain of Dreams, Halberd, Reset Bomb Forest, and Shadow Moses Island only count if you really squint.
It’s about time someone has done this, and if I had to pick a specific person it would definitely be mockrock. The mix of design knowledge and respect for the source material makes for an excellent video
One MockRock issue with Ultimate handled in a PHENOMENAL video! Now time for the next MockRock vid, “The Pits’ Nairs NEED New Hitboxes”
Ganondorf seriously needs a huge overhaul on his move set due to two reasons: His moves look like captain falcon’s fighting moves, and there’s a lot of source material that allows Nintendo to reference since Ganondorf has a lot of moves from legend of Zelda
Maybe the reason for why Ganondorf ended up with a bizarre cloned moveset instead of either planning him from the very start as a unique character in Melee or saving him for Brawl is that, at the time, Ganondorf was only in one game (Ocarina of Time), and in that game, pretty sure all he did was float around, throw a big ball projectile, and show some vague darkness effects, and most of the other possible source moves in the series were actually done by Ganon (without the “dorf”), and yet so many fans wanted him anyway, so he was put in last-minute
Now as for why he didn’t at least get that projectile in later games is something I cannot even begin to answer, but at the time, I guess making him a clone somewhat made sense??? (but at the same time, why not also reference stuff from his Ganon form in older games as well)
I’ve been looking forward too this so much as you do remake character videos like no other.
Edit: watched the video. Fantastic editing and you did a great job conveying to the viewer what your intentions are for each moveslot.
In terms of things that can be improved upon, I recommend giving forward air a landing hitbox just to sell the power of the move a bit more and making it so you can’t use neutral b if you’ve already grabbed the ledge previously (mostly to avoid stalling). Outside of that everything seems fine outside of nitpicks that aren’t really worth mentioning.
I look forward to seeing Zelda, assuming you plan on doing it at some point.
Appreciate it! For forward air and forward smash, I actually did originally have shockwave hitboxes on them. I decided to remove them because a) nobody's mistaking those moves as weak to begin with haha, and b) it leaves room for moves that have shockwaves as a more intrinsic part of their identity to stand out more. As far as neutral special stalling goes, I'm not worried about it, Ultimate's one-time invincibility and regrab limit should prevent any serious issues. He can probably plank a little bit between Warlock's Defiance and uair, but eh, that's alright, a lot of characters can.
For Zelda, we'll see. Completing the Triforce would be cool for sure, but I don't have a footage archive for some of her most important games and also suspect she'd be by far the least in-demand of the trio. Possibly though, if I can make it work at some point I will.
@MrMockRock I'm totally down for Zelda, but there's a lot of characters left that I think should be in front of her in line.
Being a last Minute Addition in melee really hurt Ganondorf. I wish he got a better Moveset. His Incarnation in TOTK would be such an AWESOME approach. This is gonna be a great watch!
I wouldn't even say that's the issue. The issue is the team absolutely refuses to make meaningful changes to him. Even if things were last minute, that doesn't excuse keeping so much the same two decades later. Things aren't "last minute" anymore.
I understand the team wants to keep veterans the same for fear of alienating said characters player base, but that isn't an excuse when his entire player base would unanimously like them changed.
@@DarkAura19Except this ISN’T a unanimous decision. A lot of people REALLY enjoy Ganon as he is now. The Black Shadow approach is the only way to satisfy everyone, but at least it’s an option
@@chordalharmonyif black shadow does get old ganon/Ganondorf moveset no complaining 😭
@@DarkAura19 To kirbyx's point though, if Ganondorf hadn't been a last minute addition he wouldn't have been rushed in the first place.
Also sorry but incorrect about things not being "last minute" anymore. Devs are still forced to crunch and make last minute decisions and calls due ot time.
I LOVE the idea for Side Special. Flame Choke is such a sick move that it's really hard to match that hype (even with the Up Special somewhat carrying on its legacy), but the charging boar and fire bat silhouettes are so cool. Specials that are different moves depending on if you are on the ground or in the air are something I'd really like to see more of in Smash 6, and you pulled it off excellently.
Hi Gubsy
TOTK Ganondorf provides the most moveset potential imo,
He could have a down special where he switches weapons, from a club, spear, and katana, and the actions of his normals or aerials (maybe his down aerial)
His neutral special can be the Demon King Bow, pretty much like Link's bow except it is multi-shot (at most 3 based on his boss fight in totk), but like Byleth's failnaught it can't be cancelled once fully charged
His side b could be the lunge he does in totk, but what he does depends on the weapon he has
Up B, i have no idea, but probably that spin he does with his katana in totk
"he plays an organ to his victory theme"
Damn it
I NEED this!
Brilliant.
As someone who made a fan made interpretation of Ganondorf for Rivals of Aether that leaned towards more of a middle ground (retaining aspects of Smash Ganondorf I and my collaborater VVizard liked while also adding in tools that represented him in the rest of the series better), I am curious to see just how far Mockrock takes this design
I've seen that one! I get the approach and liked it for what it was, but I prefer to tackle these with a total scorched earth approach haha, very different philosophy
@MrMockRock after watching through the entire video, I really like the moveset you created! There are a lot of inspired ideas here that feel very fitting to the character, particularly the ways Dead Man's Volley was included in the moveset. Really enjoyed it.
I have yet to play it, but that's probably my favorite Ganondorf fan moveset I've seen.
I cannot stress how happy I am that you are making more of these. Through your content you've shown you've got some fantastic insights into character designs and those insights truly shine when tackling different ways these characters could be depicted in future games. Loved Link's, loved this one, hope to see many more in the future!
I love the concept for the up-taunt being a maniacal laugh. It would never happen during an actual battle, of course, but I'd love if it did the entire 30-second laugh from Wind Waker if left uninterrupted. Best taunt in the game, right there.
While I personally am more on the side of keeping just a few of his normal smash moves and would have gone for a more warlock-esc feel with sparcer weapon appearances, I really liked this. I particularly LOVED that back throw that thing sounds so raw, and I love how you incorperated the fire bats. Up tilt was another stand out move, I love the crossing blades. The animations for them also did feel pretty in line with Ganon's body language which I think is an important aspect of representation that tons of fan movesets tend to ignore. I loved pretty much all of his normals but while I did find a couple of the specials to be a bit bland and I think Float could easily just be inputted the same way as Peach's to free up Neutral B, I very much enjoyed this as a whole. As an idea, if you continue doing these specifically based on if the character got in as DLC, you could start covering stages and music as well. I imagine itd be a lot of extra work but your editing and ideas are so high quality that I think it could really round out these videos. (Also the fact we still dont have a Bowsers Castle or Ganons Tower is downright depressing)
You actually put the words right in my mouth! Body language is important! I'm a moveset designer myself. Not only idle stances, taunts and all that are important, but the posing during certain attacks, and the specific gestures and movements. Some characters will be frantic while others will be more direct and controlled. If that's what you were thinking about too, then it's definitely right.
imo since his float would be omnidirectional I think its better attached to the b button instead of holding down on the analog stick. That's what they did with Metwo in P+ and it feels super unintuitive - like, it definitely works, but it takes some time getting used to
This should just be Ganondorf’s moveset going forward
You've done Link, Ganondorf, now you GOTTA tackle my main Zelda
to be fair, unlike those two, zelda isnt actually that poorly represented in smash
I love how you gave all the moves such cool names. A completely unnecessary addition in the grand scheme of things but it adds so much imagery to the moves power and shows how much effort you put into the small details
I find myself enjoying this rework of Ganondorf's moveset and agree with your points about heavies in Smash. That being said, I thought of some ideas for a new mechanic for a future Smash game that could possibly put heavies at less of a disadvantage: Overwhelm
The mechanic is based primarily on both characters' weight stats, and it affects things like grabbing another character, grabbing the ledge, tripping, bury times, and armor. Basically, when a heavyweight character is fighting a lightweight character, depending on the weight difference, the heavy character may be able to avoid getting ledge trumped, maintain a grab for longer, be able to mash out of a grab more easily or even smack away a light enough character just for trying to grab them, have a chance of being able to cancel a trip entirely, mash out of bury easier, and armor through more powerful attacks. It's not really a solution to them being combo food, but it gives them more options to turn the tables on lightweights that would originally run rings around them.
This looks awesome MockRock! The moveset is very cool, it plays very nicely with Ganondorf's traits, his power, his intimidation factor, his capability for burst movement despite being generally slow, and his ability to twist a bit the rules in order to win, I love the fact taht the Up Smash and Air can be used as projectiles, it's something that he can use to fight at longer range, but considering how unusual it's to use (and the fact that you have to commit to a slower move to use it) makes it a lot less spammable than a typical projectil, for Ganondorf is not an truly defensive campy option, it's essentially a flex to force people to play his evil tennis game.
Also the float is always cool.
10:04 THAT WOULD BE THE COOLEST VICTORY ANIMATION EVER
I'd actually just main this Ganondorf. This feels like everything I want in a Smash character.
honestly hoping these kinds of videos become a regular series, while i don't necessarily agree with the concepts others come up with sometimes, it's always fun to see what people come up with regardless
Agreed bigtime, Im usually more open minded with these so its rare I dont like at least something from them so theres always somethings I can take away from these
I'd like.to.see.a.version of 'Dorf with a moveset balanced around having Bowser's tough-guy armor. Maybe not as strong as turtle-dad's or his hyper during warlock punch, but weak attacks shouldn't even phase him during certain actions
Great video overall! I did have a similar idea for his neutral special, but it combined the float, reflector, and dead man's volley together, though this was when I was picturing only one move being reworked rather than his entire kit. It would be cool if maybe Ganondorf still got a unique move or two in his float state, but I still think this was a great moveset!
So, first off, great video! I love most of your reasoning and references in his moveset. However, while I think it is a good character concept for a new character, I think a bit more could be used for the new DLC character concept. I have no complaints with your Link moveset, but your Ganondorf moveset was a bit underwhelming when it came to more complex gimmicks. So, if you don't mind, I'm just gonna list off some ideas I cooked up over these 4 weeks the video has been out.
Side special - Just replace the flaming bat with the gloom dragon seen at 39:45. Just makes more sense to me.
Up special - Rise of the Demon - Ganondorf pulls out his trident and starts spinning it above his head. He floats up slowly for a moment before disappearing and reappearing some distance above where he was when he vanished. It's basically a fancier teleport with (what I think is) a good reference.
Down special - Phantom Ganondorf (the biggest one) - When the move is used, it spawns a phantom of Ganondorf where he is standing. The appearance depends on the alt used. This phantom will use the last move that was used by Ganondorf after spawning, in 1 second intervals. It does not matter whether the phantom is airbourne or not, meaning it can use grounded attacks in the air or aerials on the ground. These phantoms will not move (meaning they will float midair), but if the last move used was a movement option, it will function normally and after the phantom will teleport back to it's original position. There will be a cooldown of 10 seconds along with a limit of 2 phantoms. The phantoms will disappear in one attack and have weaker attacks. And y'know what? Screw it, they will also use the final smash when Ganondorf activates it.
So... waddya think everyone?
My only concern is that ganondorf would lose out on dead man's volley matchups too much.
The fact that they made a Ganon moveset without ANY way to play Dead Man's Volley is the biggest indictment of Ganon in Smash.
I am a Ganondorf main, and I love his moveset, despite having so many weaknesses. However, I would love to see this well thought out moveset in the current state of the game. If there is another smash title (lol), this would be it! Make ganon at least a mid tier please ^^
nah at least to B tier 😭
If they wanted an evil, heavyweight echo fighter for Captain Falcon, why not transplant Ganon's moveset onto F-Zero's own Black Shadow? It'd be a perfect fit, from where I'm standing.
@@kevingriffith6011 Problem is, who actually cares that much about Black Shadow? There's a reason Capt. Falcon is the only F-Zero rep, the series is basically dead and wasn't even that popular when it was alive. Considering all of the well-known characters that haven't even made a smash game, there's just no room for him.
@@blazefactor6849 The same could be said about Plant, or a handful of the fire emblem characters, or Richter. There are a lot of "almost no-one cares" characters in smash already.
@@kevingriffith6011 Those are still from franchises that actually exist in the modern era. The last mainline F-Zero game to be released came out almost two decades ago.
This entire video can be summed up by " so THAT'S why MockRock's favourite archetype is heavyweight projectile swordfighter."
I don't have a problem with Ganondorf being in introduced to the series as a clone to Falcon. He was a last-minute addition, the melee team was already killing themselves with the 2 year development time and it's not like Melee didn't already have a bunch of clones. What I DO have a problem with is keeping him that way for the series moving forward.
these types of videos made me do something similar of my own volition. i made a document a while ago, to sort give a take of sonic being updated as a frontiers moveset. obviously i didn't make it public, just shared it with a few friends, and i didn't make nearly the same details you did. however i am still relatively proud of myself, and i have to thank you for the inspiration (still have the document if anyone wants to see)
That corrupted triforce would be such a cool idea for a final smash.
Have you seen the Ganondorf on Rivals of Aether Workshop by Artist of Seer and VVizard? They basically took some elements of Smash Ganondorf but made it a lot more inspired and gave him a trident and allowed him to hover.
I find it hilarious that a video about the king of evil is sponsored by lawyers
I mean ..for your intro, being added in brawl works since melee he was only a clone due to being a literal last minute addition.
If it was decided "next game" and they had more time to make him, hed be fine
I think making him a weapon master would also future proof his moveset to some extend. If the next Zelda comes out there is a good chance he'll wield a weapon that is already part of this moveset and thus they wouldn't need big changes to make his next design work.
These videos are a real double edged sword. The movesets you've come up with look amazing and like they'd be really fun to play, but sadly there'll never be that opportunity. Hoping you make one of these for Kirby one day ❤
It feels like Christmas morning whenever I see MockRock on my home page. Minus the whole “unwrapping” part.
23:10 wait a minute.... why's Ganondorf doing the spirit bomb??
Side note: I'm watching this video and the Link video back to back and I'm honestly super impressed that you put all of this together yourself, you're truly inspirational MockRock!! (Especially for me as I'm hoping to design games myself, hence why I love watching these video!!)
Im really conflicted with smash ganon.on one hand along with bowser he is Nintendos most iconic vilain(and one of the most iconic villain of gaming in general) so he absolutely deserves a canon accurate moveset but on the other hand he is my most favourite character to play and i dont think there is any way to make him more fun
I've heard many people (I think including MockRock) offer solutions to preserve the current Ganondorf moveset in Smash, by moving it to a different character, the one I remember being another character from F-ZERO (forgive me, I don't remember their name)
@@landlighterfirestar5550Black Shadow or Blood Falcon
@@MegaPokefan97 correct have a 🍪
@@niteriemcfarlane5285can i have a 🍪 too
Absolutely can't believe someone would make a Ganon moveset without flame choke like that's 80% of what makes him fun
This would be so cool, I love the "mind games" aspect and how you gave him two reflectors/teleports/projectiles instead of just one of each. I'm especially a fan of the teleports, I love using Dimensional Cape to mess with people : )
This is actually a phenomenal take on the character that I think would actually get me to play him.
I love that you don't sacrifice the "heft" of his Smash current incarnation, but he's not completely basic either.
2 more hours, and PJiggles will miraculously post a tangentially related video about ganondorfs move set… you just wait
This has to be one of if, not the most anticipated video your followers (including me) wanted to see.
I recall that Twitter post you made on September 14 where Ganondorf was one of four characters you want to see overhauled in the next Smash Bros installment. Do you plan on doing the other three for this series on your channel?
Keep up the phenomenal work, good sir!
i know why you didn’t do it, but i think it woulda been REALLY funny if you replaced the ganondorf warlock punch in the intro with the new neutral special
I hate to be that guy because someone always brings it up, but if you really want to keep a stronger, slower version of Captain Falcon's moveset with black magic motifs on a slightly larger character who's also a villain, you have Black Shadow right there. You could even make his taunts those stupid dance moves / arm flailing he does in GX's cutscenes. Final Smash is the Black Bull flattening you into the ground as opposed to the Blue Falcon knocking you away. It's a really great idea.
Wait, wait, hold on. Did you just make his Aerial Side-B a Wing Smash? Fast flying bat tackle that can be angled slightly. Hmmm.
And you yourself brought up Black Shadow. Cool
I absolutely love this moveset. I feel like it perfectly encapsulates how it would feel to be Ganondorf on the battlefield. I particularly love how all of his special moves are burst movement options - Ganondorf in the Zelda games is a formidable opponent because he takes calculated risks to surge towards or away from opponents, allowing him to effectively skip neutral if done precisely. He's a strategist, and this moveset seems to reflect that very well.
really do wish ganondorf was a later entry to the series so they could actually give him a non derivative moveset
Not sure if you read comments after the first few weeks, but in case you do: It’d be really cool if you talked about some ideas you had back when you wanted to create your own platform fighter. Even if it was a casual MockRockTalk deal, I just like hearing you talk about your game design ideas.
Plus while I’m pretty awful with fighting games and would never be able to design one, having ideas for them has always been fun. A more traditional Danganrompa-inspired fighter about a group of college students being forced to kill each other by a demon using weapons it provides them, and a platform fighter about an anime tournament arc where allies and enemies alike fight for a wish. There’s plenty of cool creative setups and potential characters for fighting games that are fun to hear about.
I do read them haha, I know there's an audience for that idea but it's probably quite a small one tbh, I've tended to sneak bits and pieces of my old ideas into videos where I can instead
@@MrMockRock I suppose that’s fair enough.
I remember watching a Duke of Dorks video a while ago where he suggested that Ganon have a 2 hit jab; A trident swing followed by a stab. If it didn’t connect that would be all, but if the stab connected it would skewer the foe and act as a command grab, at which point Ganon would raise the trident up at a 30 degree angle and punch the foe so hard they flew off the trident. That idea alone was so cool and perfect for the character that I’d dissatisfied if it never happens. However, this idea of a backhand for the jab/Nair is also so good that now I’d love a backhand into stab combo as his jab with the same reflector effect on the first hit, which also makes it more difficult for Ganon to spam a reflector
You should've made his down throw kinda act like ultimate's side special.
They should also make calamity ganon playable.
i'm glad people are coming around to how utterly lacking zelda representation is in smash. zelda has 6 characters, 3 are clones of each other, two were originally designed as one character, and one is worse captain falcon.
Bro RUclips has been on some low grade crack lately, I love this kind of video and yet zero indication of your uploads in my home or sub feeds smh. At least I can watch it now though. RUclips, please do better.
Petition to have this as ganondorf’s move set in smash 6.
👇🏻
Great vid as always but a few ideas and alterations I’d make
Down special: Phantom ganon, ganondorf summons a phantom behind him holding either a sword, spear or club/ great sword which can be changed by angling the move, the sword would be the middle ground good coverage and moderate kill power, spear would have most range and club/great sword would obviously hit like a tank. I think it could parallel quite nicely to Zelda as I’d rework hers to be less oppressive but spawn in front of Zelda to provide additional protection
Neutral special: dead man’s volley, low level charge would function like the one in oot which can be reflected, mid level would be a small flurry of lighting/mallace balls that have unimpressive kill power but great damage, and a final charge where he punches the ground in a shockwave also found in oot functioning sort of a big dumb powerful kill move but would still be useful and attached to a move slot with some great strengths
Up smash: basically his current one just with his club or respective sword
Down smash: An attack where ganondorf where he drives his respective club or great sword into the ground similar to ike’s eruption but with coverage behind him, taking inspiration from one of his attacks in totk
Side b: probably keep it flame choke just to keep some of the old ganon as it’s one of his only moves that feels fitting in his current incarnation and is still a cool, sinister, damaging and evil move, just remove the free fall thing
Those are just some of my ideas but hopefully didn’t try to undermine any of your suggestions, great ideas all in all
I wish someone would make a smash fan game that is a collaborative effort with many creators to make the characters
That mention of that LttP/Pig Ganon moveset does sound super interesting lmao
Mockrock: Up b off the ledge kill you first--that's just how ultimate works.
Ike: Not if you fight for you friends.
Patiently have I waited for THE GREAT RECKONING OF GANONDORF'S MOVESET! LET THE JUDGEMENTS COME!
i LOVE the way you describe the events of the final smash like a short story; you have a flair for descriptive writing
There is one thing that is kinda off for me in this move set, and it relates to the Up Smash, Up Air, and Neutral Special. I feel dead man’s volley should be mapped to the neutral special, not as a weird up smash/air. The Uair version specifically doesn’t seem to have much use, as it just stalls Ganondorf in the air for longer, making it easier to hit him with his awful movement. Giving Ganondorf more traditional and powerful Up smash/air and having Dead man’s volley be his neutral special makes more sense to me, as you can then use it whenever.
As for his current Neutral special you have him, the float can just be an additional movement option like Peach or Daisy’s float, though maybe a bit different
Absolutely love your rework, from the visuals to the moveset and mechanics. Sounds like he'd be even more violent and vicious than Ridley, and I love that.
While watching the video I was thinking of ways to implement gloom's passive effect, because I've always found it's ability to temporarily remove hearts to be a really cool idea. That being said it doesn’t really work with smash percentages. So the idea i though of was having it temporarily lock the opponents special moves instead. Each time ganon lands certain moves it locks a special move for 10 seconds in order of nuetral special, down special, side special, and finally, most damning of all up special. It would give a really uniquely oppressive bonus effect to Ganondorf's moves while making up for some of his short comings. You don't need to worry about a zone if their zoning moves are turned off and you don’t need amazing gimps if they can't use their recovery. It would also give added element of risk to his deadman's volley as if he loses the volley, his specials get locked instead. Perhaps it'd be a bit too much with the moveset sketched up here but it would be really cool if nothing else. This kind of sealing off moves could also be a really cool gimmick on a rework of Zelda.
Bit of a stretch to make that Smash's version of Gloom; HOWEVER, that does remind me a lot of a different Zelda mechanic, JInxing.
The thing in Classic Zelda, Majora's Mask, and Wind Waker, where Link gets in bubble poison and he can't use his sword, or in WInd Waker any moves.
gotta be honest, weird to still have Volcano Kick in your intro for that particular episode 😂
I've been a Ganon main since Melee and I was mad that Ganon wasn't the OG Smash 64 back in the day. I would be totally fine with Ganon's current moveset being given to Black Shadow if it meant Ganon had all this. I've been dying to play energy tennis. 3:
Bro if this became a real thing I can already see the title from VARSIII: Why everyone plays ganondorf
Reflector jab probably my favorite idea. Saves his special moves for more potential magic
I really love that Warlock's Defiance is his neutral special, because it means that's what kirby gets from his copy. I love imagining Kirby levitating in the air, with his arms crossed, acting all tough.
Here's how I would handle this: I want them to make a trailer for a new fighter for the next game. The trailer opens with the artwork of villains from the K rool trailer, and the new fighter is revealed to be Black Shadow from F-Zero, and we get footage of him battling Captain Falcon. But fans will notice all of his moves are exactly like Smash 4 Ganondorf. The trailer will end with Link and Zelda looking at Black Shadow with confusion, before getting suprised by Totk Ganondorf looming behind them. They battle and now Ganondorf's new moveset is revealed.
Essentially while officially Black Shadow will be the new character, he'll really just be old Ganon, and Ganondorf will be the real new character. I think this is perfect because everyone will be happy and it will feel nice to give F-Zero fans a treat
if this is going to become a series, i would be interested in seeing Ike in one of these, the two main reasons are:
1. while his gameplay doesn't have as much miss potential as Link and Ganondorf, he could still have a good amount of changes to make him feel like the heavy hitting beast of the Fire Emblem roster.
2. i would like to see your dream archetype fully detailed, the heavy sword fighter with a projectile.
This and your Link reworks were some of the best Smash moveset reworks I've ever seen. I really appreciate the names as well.
You'd better do Zelda next and complete the Triforce.
I think having a similar property as Zelda's final smash, pass a certain %, Ganondorf's final smash should straight up kill. (Unless you had in mind a crazy launch that already kills early)
17:40 No, I think a trident wouldn't have fit him in TOTK. He had only Japanese (or japanese-looking) weapons. A Katana, a Naginata, an Oni club, because he's a real demon, and a giant bow fit for a warlord.
I think a Hyrule warriors design would be cool it’s my favorite design for gannondorf
I'm really curious on how a Ganon moveset would look like, and what similitudes with Ganondorf would he have (if any).
I have an issue with the side special. Flame choke is a direct reference to how he killed the sage of water in Twilight Princess during his botched execution. Realistically, Nintendo would keep this move as side special even on a completely new Ganondorf as they specifically chose to reference it.
The premise of this video is not "Nintendo would choose to keep X" though, there's nothing to keep, Ganondorf doesn't exist. Killing the Sage is represented in this moveset (which itself isn't a hard necessity), but there's nothing dictating that it has to be through Side Special.
Eh... Mixing the Dead Man's Volley into multiple moves, which now require a fiddly directional prompt at the end of an up-smash or NAir? To quote MockRock at 28:40 "a bit fiddly for Ganondorf; he's here to hit stuff". The Dead Man's Volley should just take the neutral B slot. That's more straightforward. I personally see no reason why a 3rd jump float tech is a bad idea. Ganondorf is a heavyweight with slower attacks and more knockback than Peach, so his combo potential with a float tech is not that big of a deal.
The floating should at least appear in the run animation. MR wants to slow Ganondorf's run speed even further, but doesn't mention changing the the run animations, which is even less imposing. At least if he's floating there's the implication that he chooses NOT to run, and would rather just float at you menacingly.
Love the idea of making the jab a reflector though. That's cool.
That final smash..... Chilling.
A couple of months have passed since the release of this video, I don't know if you're still reading comments, but I'll share my thoughts anyways.
I decided to give it a rewatch; I still like your concept a lot; simple, yet hard to master. A playstyle faithful to his character, that pushes the players to constantly think on strategies while also keeping a fast pased game. I loved your rework on the side B, full of cheese; and your take on dead man's volley is brilliant, honestly.
I find the frame data kind of problematic though. Why making him slower? I mean, yea, he has more range now, but for how you depicted it, his moves also are laggier and will require of more precise spacing to be effective. If you wanted Ganondorf to be a powerhouse, then, I find this excesive. You could solve this by letting him keep a float cancel; Ganon doesn't have the same tools that Peach has, or the same speed; he couldn't rush you as well and combos shouldn't be an issue imo.
This also applies to his projectiles. How is he supposed to setup his projectile mind games when playing against a brawler? If they take half a second to come out, you ain't going to hit anyone.
Great video anyways. I've never seen this amount of effort put on a fan moveset. Wish for the lords of Nintendo to hear our prayers!
Now that I'm hearing it from you, I kind of feel the same way, too. Of course he's going to be a heavyweight, and make that same heavyweight trade-off, but he doesn't need to be the ULTIMATE POWER CHARACTER in order to be Ganondorf. I'd lean more into that "gotcha" feel rather than make him a heavyweight among heavyweights.
40:26
This is exactly what I think they should do & was about to comment it when this part of the video played.
Adding a gloom effect to some of his moves that does gradual damage like Joker’s eiha would be cool too
This is the BEST Ganondorf moveset I've ever seen. Two things to add that was directly inspired by the footage you used in your final smash:
1) the minions summoned during during the final smash should just be from whichever games the used skin is from (SUPER DLC TREATMENT)
2) if the game ends with the final smash, the animation should zoom into a close-up of Ganondorf and STAY THERE for the victory screen (also SORRY DLC TREATMENT).
The character of Ganondorf deserves top DLC treatment after all this time
I actually think the next Smash game *should* start the roster from scratch anyway. There's nowhere to really go from Ultimate that's both more of the same and interesting/worth the trouble. A clean break with minimal attachments to previous entries and a smaller, more focused roster built from the ground up (both in terms of character selection and move set) is what I think the series needs in order to make a new installment worth getting into.
I say minimal attachments, because I think there are a handful of iconic things that ought to carry over, but I could be persuaded to go about as minimal as "literally just Falcon Knee" there.
As soon as you mentioned phantom ganon I imagined him doing a projection move where you have to attack the real ganon or get punished and you can press B to swap places with the fake
Fantastic video, only thing I would change would be the name of the final smash. Instead of tri force corruption maybe something like “Behold, The Demon King!” Or “Calamity of the Demon King”, something more foreboding that matches his King/Leader status considering he sends his army after the caught opponent, as well as something that uses his title proper
Hey Mockrock. I'm having some trouble reading the side text on Mobile due to the font size. It's not a super big deal and it gets much kore legible in full screen, but I thought I'd let you know.
I knew that may be a bit of an issue, but it is what it is, there's nothing in there that I'm not saying out loud and I don't think it'd be worth the extra screen space to make the text a lot bigger.
@@MrMockRock That's entire fair
I love being able to imagine a timeline where accidentally inputting an up-tilt doesn't get you killed