If you’re ever injured in an accident, you can check out Morgan & Morgan. To start your claim in 8 clicks or less without leaving your couch, visit ForThePeople.com/MockRockTalk Edit: As I mentioned in the outro, I'll use this pinned comment to respond to some common remarks. First off, I KNOW I CALLED IT BLAZING END THANK YOU XENOBLADE FANS IT HAS BEEN NOTED LOL. "Why is Ike's Quickdraw not on here when Mii Swordfighter's Gale Stab is?" If Ike connects Quickdraw on an opponent, he can act out of it. I guess this isn't all that common knowledge considering how many times I've gotten this comment. "King Dedede can survive the shield break setup if he cancels up B near the ledge." I thought that there were character and percent bands where this wasn't possible, but I've been told otherwise. I think maintaining its same rating is actually warranted though. "The rating for -Blazing End- Prominence Revolt is too high." I actually agree, I didn't catch this one during my review at the end, it should've gone down a tier. "What about Bowser's Whirling Fortress?" I originally had a section in the video explaining this and clearly shouldn't have cut it. Whirling Fortress generally sends opponents back towards the stage when you try and use it like DK's Spinning Kong, and it's not great at killing off the top either. "X character can survive if they start out with an explosive in their hand." Sure, but I'm not looking at the use cases where they start out with an explosive in their hand. *Main channel:* ruclips.net/user/mockrocktv *Twitter:* twitter.com/MrMockRock *Patreon:* www.patreon.com/mockrock *Twitch:* www.twitch.tv/mockrocktwitch *Teespring:* teespring.com/stores/mockrock
I think there were some omissions like the stunt moves: Offstage Falcon Punch, Warlock Punck, Flame Nova, Hatchet Man, Kazapple, Lightning Buster, Amir, and GigaFlare. They could be F tier, but landing one does stock trade and doing any of those to your opponent does irl mental damage so the reward goes crazy.
This man could have easily just done a quick list of the obvious ones, Kamikaze, Flame Choke, Bowser Bomb, call it a day. But he went all out with a 55 minute all inclusive video. This is why I love MockRock
To be fair, that wouldn't have made for a very interesting video. I mean, I'm only 3 minutes in, so this might be a boring video, but given that this is mockrock we're talking about, I doubt it.
"They've led to some of the most exciting, dramatic smash plays you can find". (Flashbacks to Chudat spending the entire match on the ledge as kirby just to swallowcide his opponent 3 times).
The semantics discussed in the intro has made me realize that only in Smash Bros can you make a tier list about the efficacy of killing yourself where you have to ask, "But what really _counts_ as killing yourself?"
The fact that MockRock always uses the home stage for the character getting showcased just shows the amount of effort and care he puts into his videos. Keep up the great work!
Blazing End is Pyra's side special. What you've been calling Blazing End is Pyra's Prominance Revolt. Normally I don't care that much, but this is a weird mistake to make considering that Pyra is one of those characters that announces what attack she's using when she's using it. Mythra too.
Making another case for Shulk’s Back Slash, while the sweetspot doesn’t apply often when throwing yourself off-stage for it, it applies a lot more if you hurl yourself towards stage instead of away, where characters recovering low will generally face ledge and have their backs turned away from you. Because the hitbox lingers, it’s unironically a strong 2-framing option, and with Smash Art, hitting the sweetspot, which now becomes reasonable to do, causes untechable stage spikes that start happening as early as 80% for a good chunk of middleweights. Even on stages where you won’t send opponents downwards with stage spiking like Kalos or Yoshi’s, the knockback on Smash Art sweetspot Back Slash is still strong enough where the untechable still kills off the side reliably. Because of where you need to position Back Slash for this to work, you can position yourself to intercept high recoveries with a fair or Air Slash while quickly covering low recoveries with a kamikaze Back Slash
@@gamingwithpikachu9297 His point was that when people recover they usually face the stage so if you do side B toward the stage you get them in the back, and now that you hit the sweetspot with smash arts it is untechable quite early, as far as untechables go.
The way you can mash out of Ganon’s side b but not bowser’s is still just wild to me. Like… why? Kaclang having a hitbox is still so funny to me, loved watching tcnick try to get a kill with it online. I love joke moves like it. The way nosferatu puts in special fall is still so hilarious to me, and I’ve definitely killed myself with it by accident…
They removed the weird special fall from other moves that had it for no reason like zelda side b, pk flash, and dk punch but somehow the command grab that doesnt even do that much dmg or kill and has a resource management aspect to it kept it. Almost feels like an oversight
@@mario-nk7be IKR 😭the only reason I can think of is because they think people'd go for kirby suck dragdowns with it but be able to live??? Which like idk anymore
Ridley's side b works well as a self destruct tool when you are trying to recover. If you side b towards the ledge, and there is and opponent standing on the edge, then ridley will connect side b and drag them all the way down. Landing the move this way is actually pretty common, at least on elite smash
I remember when I was playing Bowser against my friend using Ridley, when he used side b to recover, the position launched my Bowser to the blast zone, while Ridley was able to hang on the ledge. It was pretty funny
I'll try to argue that Bayo's Down Air can still qualify for this list, specifically because there were a few other entries on here that had a little * next to them as well. Using it raw makes it easy for her to come back to stage, like you showed. However, a more efficient way to connect the spike is to actually combo it out of her 2nd Up B. And since you need to burn both of your Up Bs for that, this makes this a proper self-destruct. Bayos do use this strat in tournament often enough to cheese some stocks very early as this combo works best from early to mid % during edge guarding or, more fun, off stage reversal situations. :)
I mean realistically Bayo has a lot of practical all-in combos that can function as kamikazes. If at any point she expends her jump and her ABK, she’s as good as dead and is betting it all that she’ll take her opponent down with her
44:52 Yes, Mii Swordfighter usually has Chakram, but if they have Gale Stab, they don't have Chakram because the two moves occupy the same special-move slot. So, you're only looking at Gale Strike and Shuriken of Light for projectile assistance, and Gale Strike knocks your opponent up, at which point they can reliably go over you (not to mention how slow Gale Strike is). Shuriken of Light is a little better, but its travel area is basically the same as a raw Gale Stab, meaning you have to use your double jump to line up Gale Stab properly after landing one. It's not unusable though, and you can throw a shuriken before jumping offstage, which is probably the best way to use it. It can force your opponent to use a jump or their airdodge to avoid it, which does help you in lining up Gale Stab. Bear in mind, I don't have any practical experience with this (I rarely play Ultimate); I just wanted to point that out.
Something important to mention with Sephiroth Dair... You do say that the move gets better with One Wing, which is absolutely true, but something incredibly important about that fact is that the absolute best time TO use this move IS when you have One Wing: When you are already high percent, a kamikaze move isn't as big of a risk, but it's still potentially a huge reward.
Hey, just wanted to say as a ridley main, that sometimes i use Side b at high % vs opponents at lowers, usually just to drop them down the stage and then recover. But sometimes, if i go down enough, if they mash outa and we are both near the blast zone, the opponent dies first for some reason. Just to put it out there.
I think it's worth mentioning that Ganon Up Air's late hit (especially the really late hit) links pretty well into Flame Choke if you're falling with it. So it can make it an interesting choice to go for if they end up behind Ganon when you go for the strong hit edgeguard
A couple notes for mii brawler: brawler can control the suplex trajectory it just doesn't change very much, but it does allow him to pick whether or not to do it from ledge and from some positions. His flip kick his also a suicide move that kills very early off the side is easy to line up and can be comboed into (nair or up air).
Whenever I can't sleep, I just put a MockRock analysis video on. Your voice is so soothing, and Smash content has a way of clearing the brain of noise. Teetering on the edge of asmr honestly
Something related to your rules is that there are many cases (including the shield break set up you mentioned) in which Super DDD Jump can be canceled after hitting the opponent in time to grab the ledge, so it doesn't really need to be a suicide. Although maybe that applies to both inhales (and cargo throw) too, where you can spit under stage or wait for the mashout and jump on top of the opponent... yeah, up to interpretation, but I felt like pointing out.
the hardest part of playing aegis is that you have to turn off the voices in the sound menu so you don’t have to listen to the girls screaming their move names
Another thing with the links spin attack, primarily young link and toon link, if you time it right then you can have a bomb you are holding then you can take yourself out of special fall and potentially recover.
Something to keep in mind about space pirate rush is that its best used when your opponent is shielding at ledge while your recovering, which is practical since Ridley has alot of moves to pressure opponents while he’s recovering
As a pt main I’m happy you put waterfall in s tier. You can do a slightly untrue combo with down throw, dair, fair/uair, up b and it kills at 0% as long as the combo works and if it’s at the edge of the stage. Of course, this is a suicide doing this.
Note about spr, but of someone mashes out of it close to the blastzone, the lag of the grab release will guarantee their death, and when ridley manually releases the grab, he ends up slightly above opponents which perfectly sets up for other moves to kamikaze.
With Diddys Monkey Flip it's a pretty weird situation because with its footstool, the same thing that makes you more likely to survive also makes them more likely to die. Since this move gets arguably worse at killing by doing the kamikaze variant, I'd say it probably shouldn't even be on this list, being an example of "Anything can SD if you go hard enough" Either that, or an F-Tier because it actively disincentivizes SDing instead of just living.
Thing about suplex: you cant mash out of it ever and it never auto releases, but the opponent will actually have a grab release pop up sort of move, which if the opponent delays their djump, can make it less effective than other suicide command grabs. Also in training mode, for some reason the opponent can most often phantom footstool off brawler, which afaik isnt humanly replicatable. There wre exceptions, one of which i think is mario who just instantlg double jumps
Little thing about Ganon’s side b, you can usually also up b out of it which can set up for a nasty edge guard if lined up towards the blast zone. Even if you’re facing towards the stage, you can up b and since it’s lower down the stage can put your opponent into an awkward position even if etched, meaning you can still get back to the stage and with your opponent being under Ganon can allow for other edge guards too
You can only up b out of it if you LAND the grab. I honestly don't see that being worth it most of the time unless you wanna try to attempt a reverse ko.
@@crazfamily6931 true, but the grab tends to be relatively generous and usually grabs your opponent due to the position you and you’re opponent are put in
Dedede doesn’t have to die from either of his suicide moves shown, especially the up b shield break 0% kill. You can simply cancel after the spike and drift over to the ledge. Inhale is good for spitting out right away and then recovering faster than the other character.
22:53 some things to note, 1. the spike has fixed knockback, and on stages like battlefield will not outright kill the opponent if done at or above ledge, however on stages like town and city it will 2. Brawler pretty much always dies second if the kill is guaranteed
33:02 I'm surprised you didn't really mention the fact that it grabs off of ledge, which makes it really useful! And the fact you can throw them against the bottom if the stage is great too
19:24 id say kamikaze should be just A bc iirc you can airdodge it pretty reliably if you know the timing and you're not doing anything since it has a slowdown
I'd argue that king Dedede's up special isn't a kamikaze move because most of the time you see it used, it gets cancelled once Dedede hits his opponent, allowing him to drift back to ledge. That applies to the shield break set up as well. If you do it right, you can cancel the up-b after the hit and drift back to ledge.
Great video! My only critique is that K Rools blunderbust should have totally been on the list. I have used this move against my opponents many times in stock trade situations and it works very well!
Good point, but there are many characters that can also theoretically get back to stage on this list like Kirby and Dedede. It is also difficult to recover sometimes.
16:44 flying slam is very, VERY stage and matchup department... but it's always hilarious when the opponent can't do anything about it. (Extra fun fact, if Bowser and the opponent have the same percentage, Bowser will still have a tiny bit more influence than the opponent)
for the links, their up b's are actually recoverable in most circumstances. theyre still SD moves, but if you drift in before the final swing their drift can take them back to ledge. its actually shown in the RaZe clip you used, he drifts back in and wouldve lived it. just figured i should say it, obviously they cant go any higher than S.
I would’ve put Pyra’s Prominence Revolt (which is the actual name of the move - Blazing End is the side special. I’ve never understood how people mix up the moves when she screams their name every other time their used, but this is coming from someone who played Xenoblade 2) in C tier. As a a semi-competent Aegis main, I _never_ see my myself going for it. The downward hitbox is so weak it can hardly be considered a spike, and the only way you’ll really get a stock with it is if you gimp a recovery, which could be accomplished in plenty of other, less self-destructive ways.
30:15 Fun fact: given enough setup time you can save a down air. Z drop a bomb that is about to explode and regrab it with your down air. The explosion will force you out of the commitment after the spike.
Fun fact, Jrs hammer swing is active for 1 frame, on each hitbox. Frame 6 and frame 8. So next time you get hit by "a gimmick", remember, it's quite literally frame perfect 🥰
Right, but notice that I never showed her facing the stage while she did her down air, like a genius! (I didn't actually know that but it would still be eligible)
@MockRockTalk Sorry if that came off rude. I just wanted to point that out. I wasn't trying to suggest how you should make your videos. I enjoy them however you want to make them because it's your channel. I think the misunderstanding here is that I was trying to share a cool fact I know, and maybe the way I put it sounded like I was trying to criticize you, so I'm sorry.
@@aqua_serene You're not rude haha, it's a valid point, but it's not really a problem since I'd just count the forward-facing variant even if I knew that going in
I know it's not relevant to this list, but a lot of the "go up and then down with a spike" type moves get a lot better when you grab ledge with them, I get way more cheesy low percent kills with kirby up b grabbing ledge then I really should
Technically banjo can still recover from his down air. All he needs to do is downair at ledge, up-b, grenade, pickup with Bair, double x2, up-b. So banjos dair shouldn't be on the list just like how sonics isn't. But if your including it because he takes damage or you didn't know.
Lucas’s up b actually has another niece use!! you can actually kill someone super early with it if you start it at the ledge, like if you get an early shieldbreak you can push them to the ledge and then launch yourself to the blastzone taking them with you. you can also do some kind of pk thunder trap at ledge for a kamikaze ledge trap, which doesnt happen often but when it hits the opponent usually dies. probably still not better than ness’s tho lol
Again Mock Rock giving an incredibly in depth tier list of very niche moves. And again I love it. DDD's up B can spike and be cancelled at ledge to grab it. However, that is not very reliable but it does help DDD from being ledge trapped. I am happy that it is included though
So just to clarify, I know that Dedede can cancel up B early, but that's not considered for this list. Any scenario where the initiating character survives gets thrown away, we're only looking at true stock trades.
@@MockRockTalkYeah... That became very clear while watching more of the video. I was going to change my comment but you've already responded. So there it sits
I feel like Head on assault is one of the best kamikazes. It kills at any percent and is shockingly easy to land. You can often do it from super far above an an opponent and you fall so fast that you can hit often.
Good video as always! Small detail to be noted: Dr Mario's kamikaze up B is actually guaranteed after a trump, which does come up in competition. For instance, here in France it was a memorable ending to one of Flow's Fight Nights during the pandemic :)
For steve you can plant a tnt and up taunt, which detonates the tnt. It is so fast and super easy to catch an opponent off guard, and is faster than running off and back on Also if you get hit in the up taunt the game treats steve like he is still on the ground which also automatically detonates the tnt
Banjo can live using dair off stage. If he uses egg bomb onstage, catch it with the down air and spam up b. If done correctly You should up b > get hit by bomb > up b > do all jumps > airdodge. But it's so niche, since you have to eggbomb at the ledge, and it limits the downairs usage range like directly next to ledge.
If you ordered items within the tiers, you would have had a much easier time with some of the decisions here. It makes the gap between the tiers much easier to judge, and makes later adjustments much easier.
i agree, but ordering things within tiers when theres so many items can be quite the hassle. and the tier list making program or whatever hes using isnt the same as your average tier list website, he actually has to move EVERYTHING individually if he wants to add something in the middle of A tier.
You forgot King K. Rool's Blunderbuss. There are many situations where you might want to go far offstage with it, and the endlag is so bad that K. Rool's toe touches the blast zone before he can act. Also sometimes if you use your double jump to catch the opponent, even if you can do Up B before hitting your opponent, K. Rool still goes down a little bit during the startup and touches the blast zone.
Blunderbuss is one of the moves I looked at and one I expected to pop up in the comments, but that falls a bit too much into the "any move can self-destruct if you go hard enough" category for me. It doesn't drag your opponent into the blast zone or spike them, and it's not a guaranteed kill on K. Rool, so I think of it in a similar category as "going deep offstage with a laggy aerial," and I obviously can't put all of those on the list. This one does admittedly have a better case you can make for it, and I could understand including it, but that's my rationale.
@@MockRockTalk i really don't want this response to look like i'm trying to lure you into an argument, but i would be very interested to hear the reasons that would differentiate this move from kirby/dedede inhale
Mini brawler down - b is so funny to mess with. It starts fine, not slow not fast, but once he’s moving he goes down so fast. It’s a multi hit spike that can kill the opponent first. It sounds funny when hit too
I know it's odd to compliment a creator on the sponsored portion of the video, but I really liked your segment for morgan, morgan, and morgan here. Your timing and delivery on some of those lines was simply impeccable. Also, is it narcasistic that I'm wondering if I had a small hand in that? Last video, I commented on Mockrock's penchant for cursed faces, and this video, he pulls out another one. Yeah, yeah that's just a coincidence. I'll see myself out.
Also, we're all gonna forget that when Mockrock said "a guy in spandex gives you a flaming kick to the sternum" I immediately pictured Mii brawler using exploding side kick. Mii brawler is a more fun character than captain falcon, anyway.
One thing about climb hazard is that sometimes when you can’t make it back because Cloud recover bad, it’s worth it to self destruct even in a situation where you normally wouldn’t want to
ive caught SO many free stocks throwing out climbhazzard on players that chase me off stage lol dont EVER chase a good cloud player off stage people lol id say it happens at least once every two or three matches for some reason they think theyll dodge or bait it out before i take them down 🤣🤣🤣 climhazzard's an almost instant attack ya'll youre not dodging it
Id like to point out that mii brawler's SAK is actually not only bigger than the other sword upbs you mentioned (and much more reliable than cloud's to boot) its actually the second biggest upb in the game to be usable oos after shulk
So Banjos stall and fall is technically survivable. But it's ungodly hard that requires holding grenade, having it blow up, then getting another one mid air to blow up to refresh the up special. I think. I remember it can be done but it's so hard it's practically impossible
44:52 technically, you couldnt use chakram to set up into this move because they both take up the side special slot. That being said, I watched this 8 months ago and did not notice this inconsistency
Dedede Bomb is being absolutely slept on here, taking away any recovery cancellation stuff, it’s genuinely a good spike to go for if you’re leading in stocks
If you connect just the thunder hit box on pika/pichus down B, and the bolt misses them, you can spike your opponent and you’re probably not making it back
This could be a bit too niche of an option, but are you willing to consider the Ice Climber's Squal Hammer? Aside from that, I think the only other arguable one I can find is Incineroar's Alolan Whip as if you're going out for a very early kill with it (which will require being a fair distance away from the stage) Incineroar will just not make it back.
Squall Hammer, no, I tested it and it didn't really do anything. Alolan Whip is in that "anything can be a self-destruct if you go hard enough" camp where if I included it I'd have to include a LOT more stuff, it didn't make the cut
(Commenting for algorithm more than anything) As a Shulk main, it's always really satisfying seeing the Nair > Fair > Fair > Air Slash string. A mainstay in all Shulk combo videos.
9:25 not to mention that Lucas pk thunder 2 and ness pk thunder 2 operate differently to begin with Lucas gets farther distance but less kill potential over all as it is a multi hit and his pk thunder 1 just travels slower anyway which makes set up even more tricky and ness' works where when he hits not only does the enemy endure a lot of damage and knock back but Ness' travel distance is shortened quite a bit sometimes enough to fail a reverse edge guard and possibly save the opponent
I think the big miss here was rewarding moves for only being an SD if they work, like Inhale doesn't kill Kirby unless the move lands, while Aether kills Ike hit or miss (offstage) Even moves like Firefox, where Fox can decide to go back to stage if they had a bad read, get points in my book Also Diddy can't recover after doing the normal hit out of Monkey Flip's grab, which has decent kill power and doesn't rely on the opponent not mashing
Little side note for Mii Brawlers Head-On Assault: Unlike most other SD moves, it kills your opponent first almost every time, so it can actually be used in last stock vs last stock for a win.
I feel like dedede up b should def be higher, its not really only usable as a shield break punish. The spiking hitbox is all the way, and it travels a huge vertical distance with good horizontal drift, so you can line it up effectively. It’s main flaw is how telegraphed it is, but with how much space it covers and how big dedede is it can still be difficult to avoid. Add in that dedede already has big hit boxes to edgeguard with, you can set up situations where it either hits, or your opponent dies from needing to airdodge it, pretty easily. It’s still not the best, but I think deserves at least a b, it’s definitely more useful than pyra up b imo
I think mii brawler's flip kick is a pretty effective kamikaze move. It kills off the side and you can choose when to use it in the longer move. Also I don't think mii brawler has enough representation lol.
Diddy's flip kick is also a self destruct, if he uses the kick ending it burns his other specials until he lands on stage, losing barrels, and the kick is actually a great kill move off stage at high percents, and even low percents close to the blast zone
Corrin actually can live down air on every stage, she doesn't need pin. I know the rules said short hop, but off a full hop you can double jump and up b back just fine. Also I do think that one's S tier, there's a solid portion of the cast who just cannot deal with it, if I'm a stock up on anyone with a horizontal recovery i'm probably going for it.
hey mockrock, fun fact! i found that a suprising ammount of smash moves are inspirated from mario sport mix. for exampale both dk up b's, dk fair, luigi dash attack, luigi dash attack i thought that was interesting
Yet again I am reminded how much I miss character-specific options in Smash's training mode. We can determine what Pokémon we get, but not which spell? Or Turnip? Or Judge number?
Should it be points for or against Ness Pk Thunder for the reason that you can suicide into Ness Up B off stage at some distances to kill him while killing yourself at high percents and without a tech (Ness Pk Thunder goes less distance when it hits something)
It wouldn't be points at all, in my eyes that's the _other_ player initiating a self-destruct against Ness. I'm not putting a slot for "Every Character Jumps In Front Of Ness" on the tier list lol
26:06 excuse me!? i mean while that is true it could be argued that high aura lucario is on par with that as even though high aura lucario has less flexible coverage than sora in the air as well as high aura lucario makes extremely rewarding reverse edge guards for opponents high aura lucario can kill more easily self destruct or not. also keep in mind that a full aura lucario can basically recover from anywhere. on battlefield he can go vertically from off camera on the bottom blast zone to just above the first set of platforms
I'm a dedede main, so I can confirm. you can avoid dying in the super dedede jump kamikazee. After you spike your opponent, you can cancel the rest of the move and free fall back to the stage before the move takes you too far to recover.
My opinion is that one of these moves is good if you can use it while at a high percentage to CONSTANTLY take a stock away from a lower percent opponent.
Note: the iconic dedede upgordo > upb spike kill at 0% is as good as it is BECAUSE it's not a self destruct. you can react to the hitlag and flip out my pressing up to go into normal special fall and snap to ledge. where Dedede's upB suicide spike DOES shine is in 2 situations, Reversals, and when gordo sticks to the stage to low to snap to ledge. considering how survivable dedede is, you can run into situations where you take the first stock, but with massive damage, and your opponent knocks you offstage and tries to edgeguard you, and you can punish this overextension with a nice 2 for one deal. it doesnt happen all the time, but the armor on the rise combined with dedede's multiple jumps makes the option a little more realistic then you described it. considering you added ALL the link up bs, AND spinning kong, i was surprised to not see kamakazee Bowser up b on this list. I'm always surprised to see it, because it's really bad. but speaking of bowser, the scoop hitbox of down b does combo into the spike against certain characters (like DK) and against certain recoveries if they miss the ledge and go a little too high. not anything to move it up a spot, but i wanted to mention it anyways (because commenting on youtube is fun)
I was under the impression that Dedede needed to go too far out to survive the shield break setup on some characters/percent bands, but a few people have told me this isn't true so I've updated the pinned comment to mention it. As for Whirling Fortress, it sadly tends to send opponents back towards the stage if you try and use it like DK's Spinning Kong.
9:00 I'd say what you would most likely see with Lucas and Ness is a reversal scenario, where an opponent goes out to edgeguard them and the ness/lucas uses pk thunder to go down with them. I noticed at least near the start you didn't note any reversal scenarios, was that on purpose? If so I can understand, you just want it as a pure "I'm going for this" decision. If not tho, that's the main self destruct niche of both pk thunders, and a lot of other moves on this list.
Sephiroth's Octaslash gets even better if you couple it with Shadow Flare. If you land a grab during Shadow Flare's duration, you can hold it a bit to line up the timing so that the down/back throw true combos into the flare which can then true combo into Octaslash. You can turn that into a kill at the ledge, regardless of DI, at as low as 2% (which is just the minimum initial damage of the Shadow Flare application itself) without wing using just a single orb with no way to escape it. It can work off normal hits too but the timing is much harder to get than holding a grab. Situational, sure, but it's not as hard to land as you might think.
@@gamingwithpikachu9297The idea is you throw them offstage so it's still an SD kill (which is why you start the throw at the ledge). Although, it can even work closer to center stage as the starting percent goes up but it's always a suicide kill.
@@seathxuchilbarashadowflare4314 Simply put, use shadow flare to knock opponents off ledge then use downwards angled octoslash to carry them down and kill them offstage as low of a percent as 2
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If you’re ever injured in an accident, you can check out Morgan & Morgan. To start your claim in 8 clicks or less without leaving your couch, visit ForThePeople.com/MockRockTalk
Edit: As I mentioned in the outro, I'll use this pinned comment to respond to some common remarks. First off, I KNOW I CALLED IT BLAZING END THANK YOU XENOBLADE FANS IT HAS BEEN NOTED LOL.
"Why is Ike's Quickdraw not on here when Mii Swordfighter's Gale Stab is?" If Ike connects Quickdraw on an opponent, he can act out of it. I guess this isn't all that common knowledge considering how many times I've gotten this comment.
"King Dedede can survive the shield break setup if he cancels up B near the ledge." I thought that there were character and percent bands where this wasn't possible, but I've been told otherwise. I think maintaining its same rating is actually warranted though.
"The rating for -Blazing End- Prominence Revolt is too high." I actually agree, I didn't catch this one during my review at the end, it should've gone down a tier.
"What about Bowser's Whirling Fortress?" I originally had a section in the video explaining this and clearly shouldn't have cut it. Whirling Fortress generally sends opponents back towards the stage when you try and use it like DK's Spinning Kong, and it's not great at killing off the top either.
"X character can survive if they start out with an explosive in their hand." Sure, but I'm not looking at the use cases where they start out with an explosive in their hand.
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I read that as Morgana, got brainwashed after 90 hours of persona 🫠
Mock's sponsors are getting weirder every video.
this is a weirdly fitting sponsor for a video about knocking yourself out
Can I sue for Smash - related injuries? A 2 dimensional guy hit me with a big hammer.
I think there were some omissions like the stunt moves: Offstage Falcon Punch, Warlock Punck, Flame Nova, Hatchet Man, Kazapple, Lightning Buster, Amir, and GigaFlare. They could be F tier, but landing one does stock trade and doing any of those to your opponent does irl mental damage so the reward goes crazy.
I've always called Bowser's side special the Kooplex, my favorite way to stock trade.
Wait this is way better
That is a cool name. I'm going to start calling it that from now on.
ABSOLUTELY PERFECT NAME!
I always try to go offstage when hit by it because my character easily recovers every time if that happens (Rosalina)
I thought you were talking about the stock market for a second there. Needless to say i was quite confused
This man could have easily just done a quick list of the obvious ones, Kamikaze, Flame Choke, Bowser Bomb, call it a day. But he went all out with a 55 minute all inclusive video. This is why I love MockRock
To be fair, that wouldn't have made for a very interesting video.
I mean, I'm only 3 minutes in, so this might be a boring video, but given that this is mockrock we're talking about, I doubt it.
That's what professionals do
@@cassiuspeter9673I mean all of it is boring unless you are nerd for this stuff. 99% of the population would not care
Some of these weren’t self destructive to me 🤷🏻♂️
@@Ze_Carrotprofessionals have standards
"They've led to some of the most exciting, dramatic smash plays you can find".
(Flashbacks to Chudat spending the entire match on the ledge as kirby just to swallowcide his opponent 3 times).
I literally also immediately thought of Chudat’s tournament play specifically from Brawl low tier tournaments lol
All power can be used for evil
Also that one time hero landed a raw hachet man on joker
The semantics discussed in the intro has made me realize that only in Smash Bros can you make a tier list about the efficacy of killing yourself where you have to ask, "But what really _counts_ as killing yourself?"
On the other hand, there's 1 move that definitely counts (kamikazi).
Did Mockrock seriously get sponsored by a LAW FIRM? 😂and I thought I'd seen it all.
The fact that MockRock always uses the home stage for the character getting showcased just shows the amount of effort and care he puts into his videos. Keep up the great work!
petition to make the hero segment into a short and call it "Ranking EVERY Kamikaze Move In Smash Ultimate'
Blazing End is Pyra's side special. What you've been calling Blazing End is Pyra's Prominance Revolt.
Normally I don't care that much, but this is a weird mistake to make considering that Pyra is one of those characters that announces what attack she's using when she's using it. Mythra too.
Nooooo! I actually did know that, but once I misspoke the first time it opened up a door in my brain that never closed again, my bad
I always thought it was dominance revolt💀
“Blazing End” is kind of a far more fitting name for an SD attack tho.
Wanna consider mythra side special here as its puts you into free fall?
@@DatDude0925 neither are SD attacks in Xenoblade tho, so it makes sense
Making another case for Shulk’s Back Slash, while the sweetspot doesn’t apply often when throwing yourself off-stage for it, it applies a lot more if you hurl yourself towards stage instead of away, where characters recovering low will generally face ledge and have their backs turned away from you. Because the hitbox lingers, it’s unironically a strong 2-framing option, and with Smash Art, hitting the sweetspot, which now becomes reasonable to do, causes untechable stage spikes that start happening as early as 80% for a good chunk of middleweights. Even on stages where you won’t send opponents downwards with stage spiking like Kalos or Yoshi’s, the knockback on Smash Art sweetspot Back Slash is still strong enough where the untechable still kills off the side reliably. Because of where you need to position Back Slash for this to work, you can position yourself to intercept high recoveries with a fair or Air Slash while quickly covering low recoveries with a kamikaze Back Slash
THERES A SWEETSPOT ON THAT? I THOUGHT THAT ONLY OCCURS WITH A BACK HIT
Shulk players always want to be out in the mix
@@gamingwithpikachu9297
I think he was talking about the back hit when he said sweetspot.
@@Zift_Ylrhavic_Resfear Then the sweet spot isn't a real consideration as its basically never going to come up in a real match
@@gamingwithpikachu9297
His point was that when people recover they usually face the stage so if you do side B toward the stage you get them in the back, and now that you hit the sweetspot with smash arts it is untechable quite early, as far as untechables go.
The way you can mash out of Ganon’s side b but not bowser’s is still just wild to me. Like… why?
Kaclang having a hitbox is still so funny to me, loved watching tcnick try to get a kill with it online. I love joke moves like it.
The way nosferatu puts in special fall is still so hilarious to me, and I’ve definitely killed myself with it by accident…
ganon side b mash out into ganon side b is godlike
They removed the weird special fall from other moves that had it for no reason like zelda side b, pk flash, and dk punch but somehow the command grab that doesnt even do that much dmg or kill and has a resource management aspect to it kept it. Almost feels like an oversight
@@mario-nk7be IKR 😭the only reason I can think of is because they think people'd go for kirby suck dragdowns with it but be able to live??? Which like idk anymore
the only fun part of mashing out of Gannon's side-b is that it's puts the opponent in place to get grabbed by up-b and you can just try again
Ridley's side b works well as a self destruct tool when you are trying to recover. If you side b towards the ledge, and there is and opponent standing on the edge, then ridley will connect side b and drag them all the way down. Landing the move this way is actually pretty common, at least on elite smash
I remember when I was playing Bowser against my friend using Ridley, when he used side b to recover, the position launched my Bowser to the blast zone, while Ridley was able to hang on the ledge.
It was pretty funny
I'll try to argue that Bayo's Down Air can still qualify for this list, specifically because there were a few other entries on here that had a little * next to them as well.
Using it raw makes it easy for her to come back to stage, like you showed. However, a more efficient way to connect the spike is to actually combo it out of her 2nd Up B. And since you need to burn both of your Up Bs for that, this makes this a proper self-destruct.
Bayos do use this strat in tournament often enough to cheese some stocks very early as this combo works best from early to mid % during edge guarding or, more fun, off stage reversal situations. :)
That's fair, I tried to keep the dive bomb criteria consistent but it might've been work making an exception for that use case
I still remember bloom missing the down air on light last stock
I mean realistically Bayo has a lot of practical all-in combos that can function as kamikazes. If at any point she expends her jump and her ABK, she’s as good as dead and is betting it all that she’ll take her opponent down with her
this! also, she gets bonus points for being able to dair spike u again if youre fast enough/was high enough after connecting her first dair
44:52 Yes, Mii Swordfighter usually has Chakram, but if they have Gale Stab, they don't have Chakram because the two moves occupy the same special-move slot. So, you're only looking at Gale Strike and Shuriken of Light for projectile assistance, and Gale Strike knocks your opponent up, at which point they can reliably go over you (not to mention how slow Gale Strike is). Shuriken of Light is a little better, but its travel area is basically the same as a raw Gale Stab, meaning you have to use your double jump to line up Gale Stab properly after landing one. It's not unusable though, and you can throw a shuriken before jumping offstage, which is probably the best way to use it. It can force your opponent to use a jump or their airdodge to avoid it, which does help you in lining up Gale Stab.
Bear in mind, I don't have any practical experience with this (I rarely play Ultimate); I just wanted to point that out.
Something important to mention with Sephiroth Dair... You do say that the move gets better with One Wing, which is absolutely true, but something incredibly important about that fact is that the absolute best time TO use this move IS when you have One Wing: When you are already high percent, a kamikaze move isn't as big of a risk, but it's still potentially a huge reward.
Prominence Revolt 💀💀💀
I am surprised this error wasn't caught. i mean knowing the name of EVERY smash character EVERY move is not expected but didn't expect that
Hey, just wanted to say as a ridley main, that sometimes i use Side b at high % vs opponents at lowers, usually just to drop them down the stage and then recover. But sometimes, if i go down enough, if they mash outa and we are both near the blast zone, the opponent dies first for some reason. Just to put it out there.
I think it's worth mentioning that Ganon Up Air's late hit (especially the really late hit) links pretty well into Flame Choke if you're falling with it. So it can make it an interesting choice to go for if they end up behind Ganon when you go for the strong hit edgeguard
A couple notes for mii brawler: brawler can control the suplex trajectory it just doesn't change very much, but it does allow him to pick whether or not to do it from ledge and from some positions. His flip kick his also a suicide move that kills very early off the side is easy to line up and can be comboed into (nair or up air).
I'd argue that Feint Jump should also be included in this list because of the dive option (similar to captain falcon and others)
Big agree
Whenever I can't sleep, I just put a MockRock analysis video on. Your voice is so soothing, and Smash content has a way of clearing the brain of noise. Teetering on the edge of asmr honestly
Fr
5:29 Not me getting hit with this the first set I ever played on stream at a local lmao
Something related to your rules is that there are many cases (including the shield break set up you mentioned) in which Super DDD Jump can be canceled after hitting the opponent in time to grab the ledge, so it doesn't really need to be a suicide.
Although maybe that applies to both inhales (and cargo throw) too, where you can spit under stage or wait for the mashout and jump on top of the opponent... yeah, up to interpretation, but I felt like pointing out.
“Mii sword fighter does have a lot of stuff like chakarams to force the opponent into uncomfortable situations” gale stab is also a side b 😭 44:52
Man, sephiroth is easily one of the coolest characters ultimate has to offer
The criteria for this list is the player quoting Vsauce's "I have decided that I want to die" quote.
the hardest part of playing aegis is that you have to turn off the voices in the sound menu so you don’t have to listen to the girls screaming their move names
Another thing with the links spin attack, primarily young link and toon link, if you time it right then you can have a bomb you are holding then you can take yourself out of special fall and potentially recover.
Something to keep in mind about space pirate rush is that its best used when your opponent is shielding at ledge while your recovering, which is practical since Ridley has alot of moves to pressure opponents while he’s recovering
As a pt main I’m happy you put waterfall in s tier. You can do a slightly untrue combo with down throw, dair, fair/uair, up b and it kills at 0% as long as the combo works and if it’s at the edge of the stage. Of course, this is a suicide doing this.
2:17
Thanks MockRock for creating my next nightmare.
Note about spr, but of someone mashes out of it close to the blastzone, the lag of the grab release will guarantee their death, and when ridley manually releases the grab, he ends up slightly above opponents which perfectly sets up for other moves to kamikaze.
Here comes the SD Card, self-destruct sequence initiated!
With Diddys Monkey Flip it's a pretty weird situation because with its footstool, the same thing that makes you more likely to survive also makes them more likely to die. Since this move gets arguably worse at killing by doing the kamikaze variant, I'd say it probably shouldn't even be on this list, being an example of "Anything can SD if you go hard enough"
Either that, or an F-Tier because it actively disincentivizes SDing instead of just living.
Agreed
Thing about suplex: you cant mash out of it ever and it never auto releases, but the opponent will actually have a grab release pop up sort of move, which if the opponent delays their djump, can make it less effective than other suicide command grabs. Also in training mode, for some reason the opponent can most often phantom footstool off brawler, which afaik isnt humanly replicatable. There wre exceptions, one of which i think is mario who just instantlg double jumps
Little thing about Ganon’s side b, you can usually also up b out of it which can set up for a nasty edge guard if lined up towards the blast zone. Even if you’re facing towards the stage, you can up b and since it’s lower down the stage can put your opponent into an awkward position even if etched, meaning you can still get back to the stage and with your opponent being under Ganon can allow for other edge guards too
You can only up b out of it if you LAND the grab.
I honestly don't see that being worth it most of the time unless you wanna try to attempt a reverse ko.
@@crazfamily6931 true, but the grab tends to be relatively generous and usually grabs your opponent due to the position you and you’re opponent are put in
Dedede doesn’t have to die from either of his suicide moves shown, especially the up b shield break 0% kill. You can simply cancel after the spike and drift over to the ledge. Inhale is good for spitting out right away and then recovering faster than the other character.
22:53 some things to note, 1. the spike has fixed knockback, and on stages like battlefield will not outright kill the opponent if done at or above ledge, however on stages like town and city it will
2. Brawler pretty much always dies second if the kill is guaranteed
33:02 I'm surprised you didn't really mention the fact that it grabs off of ledge, which makes it really useful! And the fact you can throw them against the bottom if the stage is great too
19:24 id say kamikaze should be just A bc iirc you can airdodge it pretty reliably if you know the timing and you're not doing anything since it has a slowdown
I'm surprised Wiifit made it on this list. "Yeah, you did kill them," when they dropped their controller
I'd argue that king Dedede's up special isn't a kamikaze move because most of the time you see it used, it gets cancelled once Dedede hits his opponent, allowing him to drift back to ledge. That applies to the shield break set up as well. If you do it right, you can cancel the up-b after the hit and drift back to ledge.
Great video! My only critique is that K Rools blunderbust should have totally been on the list. I have used this move against my opponents many times in stock trade situations and it works very well!
But if you do this correctly, you can survive with up B
Good point, but there are many characters that can also theoretically get back to stage on this list like Kirby and Dedede. It is also difficult to recover sometimes.
16:44 flying slam is very, VERY stage and matchup department... but it's always hilarious when the opponent can't do anything about it.
(Extra fun fact, if Bowser and the opponent have the same percentage, Bowser will still have a tiny bit more influence than the opponent)
for the links, their up b's are actually recoverable in most circumstances. theyre still SD moves, but if you drift in before the final swing their drift can take them back to ledge. its actually shown in the RaZe clip you used, he drifts back in and wouldve lived it. just figured i should say it, obviously they cant go any higher than S.
I would’ve put Pyra’s Prominence Revolt (which is the actual name of the move - Blazing End is the side special. I’ve never understood how people mix up the moves when she screams their name every other time their used, but this is coming from someone who played Xenoblade 2) in C tier. As a a semi-competent Aegis main, I _never_ see my myself going for it. The downward hitbox is so weak it can hardly be considered a spike, and the only way you’ll really get a stock with it is if you gimp a recovery, which could be accomplished in plenty of other, less self-destructive ways.
L Xenobade player
30:15
Fun fact: given enough setup time you can save a down air.
Z drop a bomb that is about to explode and regrab it with your down air. The explosion will force you out of the commitment after the spike.
Fun fact, Jrs hammer swing is active for 1 frame, on each hitbox. Frame 6 and frame 8. So next time you get hit by "a gimmick", remember, it's quite literally frame perfect 🥰
Corrin can actually survive down air from shorthop off ledge (even without walls) only if she faces the stage though so she can get magnet hands.
Right, but notice that I never showed her facing the stage while she did her down air, like a genius!
(I didn't actually know that but it would still be eligible)
@MockRockTalk Sorry if that came off rude. I just wanted to point that out. I wasn't trying to suggest how you should make your videos. I enjoy them however you want to make them because it's your channel. I think the misunderstanding here is that I was trying to share a cool fact I know, and maybe the way I put it sounded like I was trying to criticize you, so I'm sorry.
@@aqua_serene You're not rude haha, it's a valid point, but it's not really a problem since I'd just count the forward-facing variant even if I knew that going in
@MockRockTalk Oh, ok. Lol, I thought I pissed you off. Great video, obviously, regardless.
I know it's not relevant to this list, but a lot of the "go up and then down with a spike" type moves get a lot better when you grab ledge with them, I get way more cheesy low percent kills with kirby up b grabbing ledge then I really should
Technically banjo can still recover from his down air. All he needs to do is downair at ledge, up-b, grenade, pickup with Bair, double x2, up-b. So banjos dair shouldn't be on the list just like how sonics isn't. But if your including it because he takes damage or you didn't know.
Lucas’s up b actually has another niece use!! you can actually kill someone super early with it if you start it at the ledge, like if you get an early shieldbreak you can push them to the ledge and then launch yourself to the blastzone taking them with you. you can also do some kind of pk thunder trap at ledge for a kamikaze ledge trap, which doesnt happen often but when it hits the opponent usually dies. probably still not better than ness’s tho lol
Again Mock Rock giving an incredibly in depth tier list of very niche moves. And again I love it. DDD's up B can spike and be cancelled at ledge to grab it. However, that is not very reliable but it does help DDD from being ledge trapped. I am happy that it is included though
So just to clarify, I know that Dedede can cancel up B early, but that's not considered for this list. Any scenario where the initiating character survives gets thrown away, we're only looking at true stock trades.
@@MockRockTalkYeah... That became very clear while watching more of the video. I was going to change my comment but you've already responded. So there it sits
I love you like the son I'll never have MockRock. Keep up the good work I'm proud of you!
I feel like Head on assault is one of the best kamikazes. It kills at any percent and is shockingly easy to land. You can often do it from super far above an an opponent and you fall so fast that you can hit often.
Good video as always! Small detail to be noted: Dr Mario's kamikaze up B is actually guaranteed after a trump, which does come up in competition. For instance, here in France it was a memorable ending to one of Flow's Fight Nights during the pandemic :)
7:29 ok that Tyler1 bit came ABSOLUTELY out of nowhere, it feels so unlike you and I love it
First time I've reached for After Effects in months and it's to track elf ears onto a screaming man's head
For steve you can plant a tnt and up taunt, which detonates the tnt. It is so fast and super easy to catch an opponent off guard, and is faster than running off and back on
Also if you get hit in the up taunt the game treats steve like he is still on the ground which also automatically detonates the tnt
Won't work online
Banjo can live using dair off stage. If he uses egg bomb onstage, catch it with the down air and spam up b. If done correctly You should up b > get hit by bomb > up b > do all jumps > airdodge. But it's so niche, since you have to eggbomb at the ledge, and it limits the downairs usage range like directly next to ledge.
Genuinely the best sponsered segment I've seen in YEARS.
If you ordered items within the tiers, you would have had a much easier time with some of the decisions here. It makes the gap between the tiers much easier to judge, and makes later adjustments much easier.
i agree, but ordering things within tiers when theres so many items can be quite the hassle. and the tier list making program or whatever hes using isnt the same as your average tier list website, he actually has to move EVERYTHING individually if he wants to add something in the middle of A tier.
I really do like the phrase "anything can ba a self destruct move if you go hard enough"
Good to keep in mind if you're hunting for clips
You forgot King K. Rool's Blunderbuss. There are many situations where you might want to go far offstage with it, and the endlag is so bad that K. Rool's toe touches the blast zone before he can act. Also sometimes if you use your double jump to catch the opponent, even if you can do Up B before hitting your opponent, K. Rool still goes down a little bit during the startup and touches the blast zone.
Blunderbuss is one of the moves I looked at and one I expected to pop up in the comments, but that falls a bit too much into the "any move can self-destruct if you go hard enough" category for me. It doesn't drag your opponent into the blast zone or spike them, and it's not a guaranteed kill on K. Rool, so I think of it in a similar category as "going deep offstage with a laggy aerial," and I obviously can't put all of those on the list. This one does admittedly have a better case you can make for it, and I could understand including it, but that's my rationale.
@@MockRockTalk i really don't want this response to look like i'm trying to lure you into an argument, but i would be very interested to hear the reasons that would differentiate this move from kirby/dedede inhale
@@stllr_Blunderbuss doesn't hold you in, K Rool shoots you out right after
Mini brawler down - b is so funny to mess with. It starts fine, not slow not fast, but once he’s moving he goes down so fast. It’s a multi hit spike that can kill the opponent first. It sounds funny when hit too
I know it's odd to compliment a creator on the sponsored portion of the video, but I really liked your segment for morgan, morgan, and morgan here. Your timing and delivery on some of those lines was simply impeccable.
Also, is it narcasistic that I'm wondering if I had a small hand in that? Last video, I commented on Mockrock's penchant for cursed faces, and this video, he pulls out another one. Yeah, yeah that's just a coincidence. I'll see myself out.
Also, we're all gonna forget that when Mockrock said "a guy in spandex gives you a flaming kick to the sternum" I immediately pictured Mii brawler using exploding side kick. Mii brawler is a more fun character than captain falcon, anyway.
I think a lot of people would like Mii Brawler if they give em a chance.
One thing about climb hazard is that sometimes when you can’t make it back because Cloud recover bad, it’s worth it to self destruct even in a situation where you normally wouldn’t want to
I mean unless your able to get limit before hand
ive caught SO many free stocks throwing out climbhazzard on players that chase me off stage lol
dont EVER chase a good cloud player off stage people lol
id say it happens at least once every two or three matches
for some reason they think theyll dodge or bait it out before i take them down 🤣🤣🤣
climhazzard's an almost instant attack ya'll
youre not dodging it
Id like to point out that mii brawler's SAK is actually not only bigger than the other sword upbs you mentioned (and much more reliable than cloud's to boot) its actually the second biggest upb in the game to be usable oos after shulk
I was having a tough day today, thank you so much for picking today to upload a whole hour of content. I love your stuff
So Banjos stall and fall is technically survivable. But it's ungodly hard that requires holding grenade, having it blow up, then getting another one mid air to blow up to refresh the up special. I think. I remember it can be done but it's so hard it's practically impossible
44:52 technically, you couldnt use chakram to set up into this move because they both take up the side special slot. That being said, I watched this 8 months ago and did not notice this inconsistency
Dedede Bomb is being absolutely slept on here, taking away any recovery cancellation stuff, it’s genuinely a good spike to go for if you’re leading in stocks
If you connect just the thunder hit box on pika/pichus down B, and the bolt misses them, you can spike your opponent and you’re probably not making it back
This could be a bit too niche of an option, but are you willing to consider the Ice Climber's Squal Hammer? Aside from that, I think the only other arguable one I can find is Incineroar's Alolan Whip as if you're going out for a very early kill with it (which will require being a fair distance away from the stage) Incineroar will just not make it back.
Squall Hammer, no, I tested it and it didn't really do anything. Alolan Whip is in that "anything can be a self-destruct if you go hard enough" camp where if I included it I'd have to include a LOT more stuff, it didn't make the cut
Video starts at 3:00 to avoid sponsored ad
(Commenting for algorithm more than anything) As a Shulk main, it's always really satisfying seeing the Nair > Fair > Fair > Air Slash string. A mainstay in all Shulk combo videos.
9:25 not to mention that Lucas pk thunder 2 and ness pk thunder 2 operate differently to begin with Lucas gets farther distance but less kill potential over all as it is a multi hit and his pk thunder 1 just travels slower anyway which makes set up even more tricky and ness' works where when he hits not only does the enemy endure a lot of damage and knock back but Ness' travel distance is shortened quite a bit sometimes enough to fail a reverse edge guard and possibly save the opponent
thanks to whoever reported those spam replies to my comments
WE LOVE IT HERE!!! WE LOVE YOU MOCK! I ALREADY KNOW THIS GONNA BE A BANGER!!
I think the big miss here was rewarding moves for only being an SD if they work, like Inhale doesn't kill Kirby unless the move lands, while Aether kills Ike hit or miss (offstage)
Even moves like Firefox, where Fox can decide to go back to stage if they had a bad read, get points in my book
Also Diddy can't recover after doing the normal hit out of Monkey Flip's grab, which has decent kill power and doesn't rely on the opponent not mashing
Imagine if he ranks all the entrance animations that would be both cool and pretty detailed.
Little side note for Mii Brawlers Head-On Assault: Unlike most other SD moves, it kills your opponent first almost every time, so it can actually be used in last stock vs last stock for a win.
ironically while watching this video my computer crashed, guess it said "oh you wanna watch a self destruct? watch this!"
I feel like dedede up b should def be higher, its not really only usable as a shield break punish. The spiking hitbox is all the way, and it travels a huge vertical distance with good horizontal drift, so you can line it up effectively. It’s main flaw is how telegraphed it is, but with how much space it covers and how big dedede is it can still be difficult to avoid. Add in that dedede already has big hit boxes to edgeguard with, you can set up situations where it either hits, or your opponent dies from needing to airdodge it, pretty easily. It’s still not the best, but I think deserves at least a b, it’s definitely more useful than pyra up b imo
I think mii brawler's flip kick is a pretty effective kamikaze move. It kills off the side and you can choose when to use it in the longer move. Also I don't think mii brawler has enough representation lol.
Diddy's flip kick is also a self destruct, if he uses the kick ending it burns his other specials until he lands on stage, losing barrels, and the kick is actually a great kill move off stage at high percents, and even low percents close to the blast zone
Mach Tornado is also quite funny as bonking into the stage gives you a big speed boost for low kamikazee plays
Corrin actually can live down air on every stage, she doesn't need pin. I know the rules said short hop, but off a full hop you can double jump and up b back just fine. Also I do think that one's S tier, there's a solid portion of the cast who just cannot deal with it, if I'm a stock up on anyone with a horizontal recovery i'm probably going for it.
hey mockrock, fun fact! i found that a suprising ammount of smash moves are inspirated from mario sport mix. for exampale both dk up b's, dk fair, luigi dash attack, luigi dash attack
i thought that was interesting
Yet again I am reminded how much I miss character-specific options in Smash's training mode. We can determine what Pokémon we get, but not which spell? Or Turnip? Or Judge number?
Training modpack
Should it be points for or against Ness Pk Thunder for the reason that you can suicide into Ness Up B off stage at some distances to kill him while killing yourself at high percents and without a tech (Ness Pk Thunder goes less distance when it hits something)
It wouldn't be points at all, in my eyes that's the _other_ player initiating a self-destruct against Ness. I'm not putting a slot for "Every Character Jumps In Front Of Ness" on the tier list lol
I can tell MockRock had alot of fun editing this video.
I think my favorite has to be Soaring Axe Kick. It's so funny.
Mii brawler having 3 suicide moves on side, up and down specials is goofy😂😂😂
26:06 excuse me!? i mean while that is true it could be argued that high aura lucario is on par with that as even though high aura lucario has less flexible coverage than sora in the air as well as high aura lucario makes extremely rewarding reverse edge guards for opponents high aura lucario can kill more easily self destruct or not. also keep in mind that a full aura lucario can basically recover from anywhere. on battlefield he can go vertically from off camera on the bottom blast zone to just above the first set of platforms
I'm a dedede main, so I can confirm. you can avoid dying in the super dedede jump kamikazee. After you spike your opponent, you can cancel the rest of the move and free fall back to the stage before the move takes you too far to recover.
55:20 thank you Sakurai for the most "why?" Nerf, Ganoncide was still one thing that could have helped a bad character but nope
My opinion is that one of these moves is good if you can use it while at a high percentage to CONSTANTLY take a stock away from a lower percent opponent.
Note: the iconic dedede upgordo > upb spike kill at 0% is as good as it is BECAUSE it's not a self destruct. you can react to the hitlag and flip out my pressing up to go into normal special fall and snap to ledge.
where Dedede's upB suicide spike DOES shine is in 2 situations, Reversals, and when gordo sticks to the stage to low to snap to ledge. considering how survivable dedede is, you can run into situations where you take the first stock, but with massive damage, and your opponent knocks you offstage and tries to edgeguard you, and you can punish this overextension with a nice 2 for one deal. it doesnt happen all the time, but the armor on the rise combined with dedede's multiple jumps makes the option a little more realistic then you described it.
considering you added ALL the link up bs, AND spinning kong, i was surprised to not see kamakazee Bowser up b on this list. I'm always surprised to see it, because it's really bad. but speaking of bowser, the scoop hitbox of down b does combo into the spike against certain characters (like DK) and against certain recoveries if they miss the ledge and go a little too high. not anything to move it up a spot, but i wanted to mention it anyways (because commenting on youtube is fun)
I was under the impression that Dedede needed to go too far out to survive the shield break setup on some characters/percent bands, but a few people have told me this isn't true so I've updated the pinned comment to mention it. As for Whirling Fortress, it sadly tends to send opponents back towards the stage if you try and use it like DK's Spinning Kong.
9:00 I'd say what you would most likely see with Lucas and Ness is a reversal scenario, where an opponent goes out to edgeguard them and the ness/lucas uses pk thunder to go down with them. I noticed at least near the start you didn't note any reversal scenarios, was that on purpose? If so I can understand, you just want it as a pure "I'm going for this" decision. If not tho, that's the main self destruct niche of both pk thunders, and a lot of other moves on this list.
reminder that seph can confirm shadow flare into octaslash and it can kill pretty damn close to 0.... yep
23:00 SAK isn’t stubby, it has more horizontal range than cloud up b
Sephiroth's Octaslash gets even better if you couple it with Shadow Flare. If you land a grab during Shadow Flare's duration, you can hold it a bit to line up the timing so that the down/back throw true combos into the flare which can then true combo into Octaslash. You can turn that into a kill at the ledge, regardless of DI, at as low as 2% (which is just the minimum initial damage of the Shadow Flare application itself) without wing using just a single orb with no way to escape it. It can work off normal hits too but the timing is much harder to get than holding a grab. Situational, sure, but it's not as hard to land as you might think.
THATS A KILL AT THE LEDGE!!!! ITS A SD MOVE LIST MEANING KO OFFSTAGE AND YOU DIE TO
@@gamingwithpikachu9297The idea is you throw them offstage so it's still an SD kill (which is why you start the throw at the ledge). Although, it can even work closer to center stage as the starting percent goes up but it's always a suicide kill.
@@seathxuchilbarashadowflare4314 my bad misread that as "you use octoslash to kill them while they are still being hit by shadow flare"
@@gamingwithpikachu9297 No worries. There's a lot going on that's harder to explain with words than it would be to just demonstrate visually.
@@seathxuchilbarashadowflare4314 Simply put, use shadow flare to knock opponents off ledge then use downwards angled octoslash to carry them down and kill them offstage as low of a percent as 2