Growling Sidewinder released a video yesterday with the F-22 absolutely running circles around the Gripen with the Grinnelli mod. Like, not even close, absolute joke. He even jokes about how the only way the F-22 would lose would be with a chimpanzee in the F-22 and Chuck Yeager in the Gripen. Do you think this might point to something like either an in-sim plane configuration mistake, or maybe even just mods misbehaving? The difference in ability was simply staggering and really pointed to it not being a simple matter of pilot skill.
Note the different aircraft symbology on the fuel screen on the right side between the two mods. Just checked against GS' latest video. He is indeed using Grinnelli mod. Could the potential difference between you and GS be down to different speeds at the merge? I don't recall your speed during the Gripen video, but in GS' video they were merging @ .7-.8 mach.
Hello all. I'm also know as "Nightstorm". I literally just found out about this video less than an hour ago and watched it. I know the court of public opinion can be unjust and maybe I'm just kicking over a hornets nest here but I thought I would post my side of the story for anyone that cares. I'm a 50 year old guy in MN that just happens to be a huge fan of the F22. First and foremost, I have absolutely nothing but the highest esteem for Grinnelli and his team. It was NEVER my intention to compete with, disparage against or otherwise infringe on any of their efforts. Without their efforts we wouldn't have an F22 mod at all right now. That said. All I intended to do originally was just tweak some aspects of the F22 mod to my liking. Things like, modifying displays or making some of the non functional displays do something. I know it's not accurate, but that's the trouble with a mod of a classified plane, it can never be completely accurate. And it's not that I think there was anything wrong with the original mod at all. I wanted to add additional capabilities bases on what information I could find. In order to do that, I couldn't use the stock F22.lua file due to the encryption. So I used another modified version of the first F22 mod version as it wasn't encrypted and made adjustments from there. I based the thrust values on the actual Wiki information for the engines. The thrust table in newtons is calculated base on that too. And when it was done and tested, the aircraft would actually supercruise and achieve speeds it was purported to be capable of. I assumed that the original values were intended to not make the Raptor even more over powered than it already was. My intention was for single player use, and primarily for my own enjoyment. Personally, I don't play multi. The fact is, all of the changes I've made were either modifications of the existing code or some minor additions to graphics etc. I only shared it out for the purpose of sharing period. I didn't stand to gain from anything and I certainly didn't anticipate a negative reaction. And again, the original idea was just making adjustments that I liked for my personal use. It was NEVER intended to be a competition. And the aerodynamic performance of the mod to the mod except for the thrust, was based on the first release version. For any that I offended, I humbly apologize. Thank you.
@@myusername3689 top speed too is classified, hell they even lie about their aim 120C-5 maximum ranged advertising at 40nm or 74km max range but in reality its capable of 100km max range and India found that out in the hard way. Russia/China likes to overstate but US loves to understate making their competitor to be over confident.
@@noahcustode9727 Yeah, I've seen the actual sim, and set in a full mock up of the Raptor. The mod here is just a toy, and nothing else. You can use it to have fun. And eve to explore a little of the advantage that low observable technology gives you, but in no way is it a Raptor. Watching a Lockheed test piolet show off it's BVR capabilities in the sim was absolutely fantastic. If I wasn't a Lockon player I would have been so lost. But as it was I was astounded at what it could do. But even that I will not talk about at all in public forum. I know some dream of it, but a full Fidelity Raptor would absolutely ruin gameplay in DCS.
So two things, GS uses Grinneli's mod so right off the bat you've already shown you didn't really care to fact check. Secondly, GS is Canadian. What national pride is a Canadian getting out of showing the capabilities of the F-22 lmao.
Hey, Cap regularly says he doesn't know anything about anything.... so why would you expect fact checking...and he has actually noted that GS uses Grinnelis mod once he was aware of that.
GS has and is using grinellis mod he was actually chosen to debute grinellis f-22 if you really want to know just ask him don't speculate the dcs community has enough controversy
Also if anyone cares. Here's how I reached the thrust values I used.
First we'll use the F-15C Eagle as a bench mark.
From the latest data mine version of DCS which was 2.7.7.14727 here are the thrust values for the F-15 in its LUA file. thrust_sum_max = 13347, thrust_sum_ab = 21952, Those values are in kilograms force or kgf. If you convert them to kilonewtons kN you get; 130.9 KN 215.3 kN According to McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle - Wikipedia Powerplant: 2 × Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220 afterburning turbofans, 14,590 lbf (64.9 kN) thrust each dry, 23,770 lbf (105.7 kN) with afterburner
Note that's "EACH" so those values are for one engine. Double those values and what do you get? 129.8 kN Dry 211.4 kN Afterburner Pretty darned close to what's in the LUA.
Now, lets check the F-22. Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor - Wikipedia Powerplant: 2 × Pratt & Whitney F119-PW-100 augmented turbofans, 26,000 lbf (116 kN) thrust each dry, 35,000 lbf (156 kN) with afterburner So what's the math on a pair of those? 232 kN Dry 312 kN Afterburner What does that equal in kgf? 23660 and 31820 kgf respectively. Here are the lines from the modified F22.lua I'm using; thrust_sum_max = 24000, -- thrust in kgf (235 kN) or 52000 lbf total (12000 kgf / 26000 lbf per engine) --NIGHTSTORM 13347 thrust_sum_ab = 31751, -- thrust in kgf (311 kN) or 70000 lbf total (15875.5 kgf / 35000 lbf per engine) --NIGHTSTORM 21952
You can also see to the far right what the original values were. It's not exact, I could make it exact but its pretty darned close. So what I did then for the thrust table was calculate the difference between the original and the actual and then adjusted the values of the thrust table by that difference since it was of course based on the original values. The end result was an F22 that could super cruise at Mach 1.82 and reach speeds of Mach 2.5. Which in my opinion is a pretty cool testament to the DCS engine.
I'm not infallible, if anyone see's anything wrong with my information or conclusions PLEASE, point them out. Thanks!
thats why its silly to take his videos as any kind of real comparison. hes just testing what vehicle him and his buddy are better with not what vehicle is actually better.
OK cap, you have to remember that quite a few of the F-22's systems are still quite classified so thay can not be put into these mods. So no matter how hard anyone tries all mods well greatly differ from one another and the real thing.
Too many question marks in the analysis to say which mod is more accurate with respect to the actual Raptor. Awhile back I described the time when a real Raptor came very low across our property chasing down a Cessna trying to sneak through the no-fly zone surrounding Donald Trump's Bedminster, New Jersey golf course. The Raptor could not have been more than a few hundred feet agl when he literally stood on his tail at low speed and pretty much pivoted about 100 degrees to his left. He had total control... sound was deafening. Chased that sucker back the other way behind our home. This was in essence a real world intercept and the Raptor pilot made great use of thrust vectoring when he needed it. I think the Raptor is more capable than we think.
When I was a kid I saw the raptor (if I remember correctly) at an airshow (I didn't realise how rare of an opportunity that was until recently lol) and the piolet basically hovered on the spot, facing straight up a few hundred meters directly above the crowd, and I had hearing protection on, the engines were nowhere near full power, I could tell because the sound was quite low pitched, but my god, the whole crowd felt it the same time, it was like bending over and opening the oven, hot air washed over us and I could feel my guts vibrating and the ground quaking, not to mention my ears were hurting from how loud it was. If nothing else that experience gave me undying respect for how powerful the raptor's engines were. Just while we are sharing personal stories :)
"I think the Raptor is more capable than we think." I have always thought us military aviation has been so advanced in the past (think about the fact the sr-71 entered service in the 60's, that shit would have been alian tech to anyone not in the know) with long periods before stuff is declassified, that the US keeps its top-notch stuff under wraps by not utilising it's full potential or just building a prototype of something super advanced and then going back to the drawing board for a while, if something happens they take the design into production and bam, super weapon out of nowhere. Like the f-35 is cool, but not an extraterrestrial spacecraft. There were reports while back (with pictures) of some rediculosly fast and high flying UFO in the navarda area (sound see where this is going?), it had a unique co-trail of singular smoke rings spaced every few miles, no current engine anyone knows about can do that. The point is I wouldn't be surprised if the raptor could do supercruise space flight and be anywhere if the world in minutes, and it just has never been needed (not saying I think that specifically but something crazy like that).
As a close follower of Lockheed Martin for 20 years, and an avid military aircraft enthusiast, I have to ssy: We need to understand: the game has almost nothing to do with the plane in real life. The Cockpit, the avionics, the performance are all classified. All we can do is enjoy an interpretation of the plane in a game. And if that's not up to expectations, realize it's just a game and there's no way for us to actually know what the plane is capable of.
Are things getting snarky between GR & GS? GS just put up a picture post of his turn rate to make a point, and all the commenters seem to be calling for GR blood.
Remember, max speed at sea level is a structural issue not a power issue. You can literally collapse the fuselage on the intake side of the engine. Some aircraft have the power to exceed their max speed at sea level. One test I'd recommend is start at sea level and low speed, point the nose straight up and see how long it takes to get to 20,000, 40,000, 60,000ft. That should let you know if its a power or drag issue. A fun future video would be to see which DCS aircraft can beat the Streak Eagles record of 207 seconds to reach 98,000ft.
Hi I studied aircraft engineering and been a spanner man 12 years going on commercial. I'm interested in the physics of the fuselage collapsing I've never heard that before at speed at sea level.
@@jamesnorth7318 Let me clarify, I should have said inlet. Of course with a single engine, parts of the fuselage are the inlet. :-) Think about how a jet engine works. The back is a high pressure area. The front is a low dynamic pressure area. At speed at sea level you have a very low dynamic pressure inside and a very high outside static pressure (14.7 psi) pushing in. Of course at altitude, the pressure differential is much smaller so heating and shock waves are the main issue. Most aircraft have a max speed at sea level of around 1.2 mach. Above this speed the weight of the structure needed is not worth the small speed gain. If you want to hear how much jet engines suck, there is a great video from a weather balloon while a A320 flies past. You can hear the air being sucked into the engines. It's amazing.
@@Sarge714 thanks for the reply man must check that video out. A long time ago being to collage. I actually forgot all about dynamic low pressure. Whoops..
@@jamesnorth7318 Don't worry about it. Wait until you get old, you'll be amazed at what you forget. :-) The old NACA archives have lots of cool stuff. I think they are online now. They researched and published so much between 1900-1950's.
@@Sarge714 lol Ive been a spanner man for 11 years and the process is still beat in me FOD,torque settings, house keeping etc I still work that way with everything I do mechanical. I've been out of the aircraft maintenance for over a year and I'm feeling rusty lol . Soon comes back though.
Growling Sidewinder and Shot Gun actually know how to dog fight, they not empirical, they actually understand how these airplanes work. In other words you can give a Ferrari to bob down the street, and he will get very different results, compared to Michael Schumacher. This is not how it should be done men, every fighter pilot who is chosen to fly these planes for real, is like a formula one driver and they know how to get the most out of the machine. And in GS own words, if you put Chuck Yeager in the Gripen and a chimpanzee in the raptor you can beat the f22.. Get Mr. Sidewinder to do the comparison, although I think with respect, that's beneath the man.
That’s what I thought when I saw GR’s F-22 vs J-20 video, neither one of them jam the WEZ, also the JAS vs F-22 video it didn’t show the full capability of F-22, not disrespecting but it is what it is
@@Decrepit_biker I would agree with you, but then you would collect the telemetry from an expert. Not Bob down the street mate. I have so many questions on the videos, why did they not jam the wez, was the fight computer turned off, why did they not know which buttons to press in engagement, why did they make so many mistakes. This is hardly even empirical, it's confusing, I understand that the Jas is an easier mod to fly, but if you have the machine in the right hands the F22 is a beast, and even in Mr Sidewinders hands in the last fight against the Su 35, he lost it a few times too, if the plane is in the hands of a expert like shotgun, longshot or Growling sidewinder and there are a bunch of other expert dcs pilots, (me being the chimp) they would fly the plane more empirical, that is why GS does the tac review afterwards. Explaining every move and highlighting his own errors. This is my critic on the video, not bias, but practical, and for heavens sake not emotional.
@@Michaelkaraz I'm not examining the origional video, where the Raptor faced the Gripen. I do think that the origional video was a fair(ish) comparison of the kinematics of the two aircraft models ( though not the real aircraft, but thats not what is being tested as we don't have multi million pound jets lying around to play with) It clearly showed the difference in the abilities of the flight models, regardless of any mistakes by the pilots. Also these videos are made for fun purposes, you say get an expert to do it. Well if these 2 pilots are similarly skilled and of average ability it is surely more representative of the actual community? Asto the actual fighting capability of each aircraft, well I am sure that if fully utilised the Raptor would of easily beaten the Gripen in an actual engagement from realistic ranges. I am examining this video where the 2 Raptor mods are being compared, and as such they are looking to purely compare the kinematic ability of each, and this can only be done by attempting to do the exact same maneuvers and measuring the difference in response and capability.
The argument holds true even after this vid Cap. The video made by GS using Grinnelli's Mod (which you found out later I guess) still out performed Gripen. Would love to see a colab to put this to rest!
It comes down to GS use of coordinated turns way more. He utilizes the rudder really well in making his crazy tight turns when he needs to, including letting the raptor sort of flat spin if he needs to. I still haven't watched GS "F22 Raptor VS. Jas39 Gripen Dogfight" video yet. Watching that next here. My prediction is he wins the fight by utilizing coordinated turning techniques that allow him to come nose on in a one circle super quick. Also proper lead turns in the merge as well as jamming the weapons employment zone against opponent missile launches.
Also, c'mon man. The F-22, and then the Gripen. One has Thrust Vectoring, one does not. One has Aim-9Xs... One does not. One has stealth, one does not. It doesn't take much to beat that regular 4.5 Gen fighter when you fly the 5th gen Air Superiority fighter such as the F-22
@@leogibney neither have thrust vectoring in the game, they both can fly 9x' but the one you are thinking of does not have hmcs. its a game after all shouldn't over analyze it.
There is one mod. The other, is a mod of a mod. He didnt code it, he just tweeked things. Grinnelli helped him learn what he was doing. Just for information purposes.
^ This. I didn't write a mod. I modified the mod ;) And here's the reply I posted above. I know I'm WAAAAY late to this party but I didn't know about this until this morning. Hello all. I literally just found out about this video less than an hour ago and watched it. I know the court of public opinion can be unjust and maybe I'm just kicking over a hornets nest here but I thought I would post my side of the story for anyone that cares. I'm a 50 year old guy in MN that just happens to be a huge fan of the F22. First and foremost, I have absolutely nothing but the highest esteem for Grinnelli and his team. It was NEVER my intention to compete with, disparage against or otherwise infringe on any of their efforts. Without their efforts we wouldn't have an F22 mod at all right now. That said. All I intended to do originally was just tweak some aspects of the F22 mod to my liking. Things like, modifying displays or making some of the non functional displays do something. I know it's not accurate, but that's the trouble with a mod of a classified plane, it can never be completely accurate. And it's not that I think there was anything wrong with the original mod at all. I wanted to add additional capabilities bases on what information I could find. In order to do that, I couldn't use the stock F22.lua file due to the encryption. So I used another modified version of the first F22 mod version as it wasn't encrypted and made adjustments from there. I based the thrust values on the actual Wiki information for the engines. The thrust table in newtons is calculated base on that too. And when it was done and tested, the aircraft would actually supercruise and achieve speeds it was purported to be capable of. I assumed that the original values were intended to not make the Raptor even more over powered than it already was. My intention was for single player use, and primarily for my own enjoyment. Personally, I don't play multi. The fact is, all of the changes I've made were either modifications of the existing code or some minor additions to graphics etc. I only shared it out for the purpose of sharing period. I didn't stand to gain from anything and I certainly didn't anticipate a negative reaction. And again, the original idea was just making adjustments that I liked for my personal use. It was NEVER intended to be a competition. And the aerodynamic performance of the mod to the mod except for the thrust, was based on the first release version. For any that I offended, I humbly apologize. Thank you.
@@davidmcmasters5420 Thank you to both you and Grinnelli. I only play single player and use your updated F-22 mod. I particularly like your comments in the LUA files explaining some of the changes. I have my paid modules for when I want absolute realism. I only just found out that 'Attitude Hold' in the F-22 mod is actually 'Waypoint follow'; Game changer! If I set the last waypoint to 'Landing' on an airfield, the Nav mode changes to INLS automatically after the last waypoint so it's pretty much auto-landing apart from pulling up at the last second or so.
I pranked them both, because I had change all Wikipedia data (vandalism) of F-22 with Su-35 data lol. Joke asside, yes Wikipedia aren't accurate either because they are only speculation made by experts on their own valid arguments
The old argument was between realism and fun. I would argue that Lock-on was intended more towards the fun side but DCS decided long ago to go down the realism route. Nightstorm is taking a different path, the values used aren't intended to make the plane easier to fly for the gamers, it's to make 'your sides' equipment unrealistically better. Spot on Cap.
Well the F-22 has thrust vectoring, so theoretically it should be able to turn with 0 speed, but of course without any roll and yaw control because that still needs some airflow, which seems exactly like what the Nightstorm mod is doing.
It's a milsim, so it makes sense that people would want to know which mod is the closest to the real-world thing. There's no way to tell with 100% certainty on either mod, but it stands to reason Grinnelli has probably made the more accurate mod off the data available. People are free to use whichever mod they want, but for what these guys do, it seems fitting and perfectly reasonable to use the one that they can adequately show is more accurate to the information that has been provided to the public thus far. Good video.
Now I understand it's a game and that there are things about the F-22 that won't be on DCS because it's classified so it's never going to be "realistic".. however in terms of accuracy there are things we know such as the Lockheed F-22 does have thirst vectoring.. so wouldn't the Night Storm more accurate?
measuring something like stall speed or glide ratio at a given speed might give some further insight into which one behaves more accurately buuuut then you would also have to estimate those for the real raptor first
@@snux7364 they need to have a dog fight, bvr fight, and challenge each other to a classic GR skill completion before shaking hands and making up.... or some ears need boxing.
no one has stats on this plane...its a secret for a reason. it will reportedly do mach 2. neither mod does that. we have no thrust vectoring, the thing will turn on a dime and it can cruise at mach 1.5 without afterburner. Grinelli gave us all an F22 to play with Nightstorm gave us an F22 to kill russians. I dont think we should complain about either your free to do what you want but neither of them had to do anything for anyone especially for free
My hats off to you Cap for making this vid! Great comparison and data points. My hats off as well to Grinellini for making the mod and the painstaking yet phenomenal attention to detail!
F22 pilots are forbidden from using certain functions and capabilities while training even with our allies so there is a lot of unknown qualities out there. The only thing we do know is that the F22 can probably do some amazing shit and the only way we will know definitively is if it actually used in combat and it is revealed. IMHO.
It’s a 30 year old plane. One that’s on the retirement block. It doesn’t have any tricks left up it’s sleeve. It is a shame it didn’t get more time in action though.
@@Just_A_Random_Desk At the time of the F22’s development, a computer equal in power to your cellphone was the size of a building. Technology has advanced exponentially since it was designed and built. Things like helmet hud’s and other standard features on modern aircraft the F22 simply does not have access to.
Thank you Cap. I agree with most of your analysis, however, as Chuck Yeager use to say, "it's not the crate in the fight, but the man in the crate that determines the outcome of a dogfight". Growling Sidewinder (GS) mentioned this in his video yesterday, by saying, he was using another DCS pilot (Call sign - Shotgun), whom in GS's words was "Competent enough to fly the F-22", and get the most of of it's capabilities. GS flew the Gripen, and Shotgun flew the F-22. In in least 5 rounds, the F-22 won without much effort and only once seemed to be any sort of danger .. before it gunned down the Gripen. I will agree without a any hesitation that the Saab J39 Gripen is an outstanding aircraft and arguable the best fighter in the world on a " Bang for the Krona" basis that's currently in service. However, in the world of Money is no object, the F-22 is the superior fighter and in the hands of a pilot skilled enough to make full use of its performance and capabilities the F-22 is still the undisputed master of the skies currently in service. I have included a link to Growling Sidewinders video for those interested. Thank you Cap!! ruclips.net/video/W60cQhAB-Ow/видео.html&ab_channel=GrowlingSidewinder
If you are looking at pure data the true data should be right down the middle in speed or if not closer to Nightstorm's recode. If you compare The data of the F22 and the F15 based off Wikipedia F22 F15C Wingspan: 44ft 42ft Length: 62ft 63ft Thrust: ~70k lbs 47540 lbs Max Speed(Mach): 2.25 2.5 Sea level (Mach): 1.2 1.2 The F22 has much more thrust and a more modern airfoil but has slower speeds publicly. The true F22, I would wager, has a max speed at sea level of 1.35 to 1.45. Unfortunately DCS doesn't allow for thrust vectoring which would make Grinnelli's mod more accurate but it looks like Nightstorm tried to compensate for that which is what made it unflyable. I think that the F22 J20 and SU57 all underperform to their real life counterparts.
@@grimreapers What could be even more impressive is the F-35C. There’s 2 videos of it turning at over 18 degrees per second at what appears to be 7-7.5g. Not sure if there are many fighter aircraft that can turn this fast at 9g and here’s the F-35C going 18 degrees at around 7g.
1. Can't find anything on the internet about a HALO top-secret plane. 2. Seeing real F22s doing crazy stuff at airshows while being limited on what it can show. 3. using Wikipedia as factual information 4. F22 smokes multiple F15 in 1 vs multiple training all the time 🤔.......yes the F22 that handles like a super F15 without thrust vectoring is definitely the real one 👌
I believe the best way to determine which version of the F/A-22 is the most realistic is to have a squadron of real U.S.A.F. Raptor pilots test them and have them give their opinion, and good luck with that because they probably will not be allowed to give their opinion due to security concern.
@@Mrnothinginterest that 2009 fight was a good fight by the Rafale, didnt look like the raptor was trying to hard. Rafale pulled 9gs while most GS pulled by Raptor was 5
I have a close friend who pilots the F22 and I told him about your simulator. I found out some things that changes my out look on the F22. The biggest being how it fights, idea being not to dog right at all. See first, fire first and stay undetected. If it manages to find it's self in a dog fight it could choose to fight or run, if it runes, well speed is it's friend, it has too speed
The F-22 is still very classified and it hasn't actually been combat tested so the DCS mods aren't even close to being like the real Raptor (very sexy jet though)
I'd like to point out that if you watch GS's videos, he has a video on demonstrating the F-22A mod when it was released and gave a quick tutorial. If you care to check the link he gives, it's the Grinnelli Mod. I see you actually already addressed this, so this comment is more for posterity than anything I guess.
Must be awkward as a mod maker to decide on the parameters to use when there is no public data. Haven’t the DCS designers run foul of using ‘too current’ info, thinking F16. So unless DCS wants to limit itself to obsolete types that have data in the public domain… yer gonna keep having this problem. Add on standard vs advanced flight models, yer playing for fun, not for rl training 😏
I appreciate that Mr. Grinelli has made the effort to at least try to have his mod behave in a plausible way but in terms of realism, any community-made "superplane" is going land somewhere between Ace Combat and War Thunder. Since DCS is being sold as the most realistic combat flight simulator available (which it kind of is), I would classify any serious content featuring any of these mods as a detestable form of clickbait. People, being the predictable hardwired beasts that they are, fall for it every time, which leaves the content creator responsible for not becoming another "grinelli grifter".
Can "Grinnelli's F-22A" do Post-Stall Maneuver (like "Pugachev's Cobra")? If it can't do, it isn't "real life F-22A" too. ..Who can increase more air resistance to Nightstorm's F-22A?
@@92HazelMocha That's right, but I think "Nightstorm's F-22 in FCS-limit off" can do PSM because it can high-alpha flight. Maybe less accurate.. Then, if can increase air resistance to N's F-22A, I think it is similar to real rife F-22A. Of course, if G's F-22A can perform more aggressive high-alpha flight, we may get same result.
Of course Wikipedia has the correct stats like maximum speed. Lol. The pilots aren’t even allowed to reveal it’s prowess during Int’l excercises. When was the last time anywhere for anything a speed record from 1977 not been broken. #really?
Without variable position thrust modelling in DCS, and with such limited information availabe about those planes, it really is an argument about opinions (specifically the mod makers) .... I enjoyed the video! You can never know where wikipedia data comes from, so not the best source, although, it's the only source we have. I'm not sure what the govt data says, but it's highly likley to down play or uplift the performance depending on their geopolitical stance.
That turn radius in the base Grinnelli mod is probably fine for an F-22 without thrust vectoring enabled... but IRL with thrust vectoring I'm pretty sure its a bit closer to Nightstorm's... I mean go watch some videos where the F-22 is showing off some of its thrust vectoring ability... of course it can do some really crazy tight turns and flips if the pilot feels he needs to do them to get the nose authority ruclips.net/video/yrDnXEKlSY4/видео.html. Only thing I can probably agree on is the speeds, but it's also the only bit of publicly available info you can find... that miiight not even be true since it is still a fairly heavily classified aircraft.
@@aggravated_assault With how thrust vectoring works you can still roll and flip your plane with enough control even at 0 speed. Greatly depends on how low to the ground and heavy you are. Only thing the F-22 lacks with thrust vectoring is ability to add yaw input. You are NOT just going to have absolutely no stick input at low speeds like this simplified flight model shows. Plus these F-22 airshow pilots are fairly restricted from showing off a lot of the thrust vectoring ability to keep everyone more in the dark of what this plane is really capable of. I doubt you would lose too much control of the plane in the hands of a properly trained pilot that isnt going to freak out yanking the stick all sorts of different directions at low altitude like a dummy.
@@aggravated_assault You're not giving me enough to go by here. I dont think you understand just how much control thrust vectoring gives a plane, especially one with as advanced of a fly-by-wire system as the F-22 has. With thrust vectoring, lack of air cushion is not a factor. It all depends on how much thrust can your engines provide, how much can you manipulate the thrust vectoring nozzles and how well can the fly-by-wire computer retain control of the aircraft. Literally the only way you can lose control of this plane is if the fly-by-wire system was entirely turned off somehow. I think what you are talking about is departure from flight. If so there is such a thing as controlled departure from flight that a lot of thrust vectoring aircraft are capable of doing.
Excuse my comment. I also put in the F22 mod, but the pitch is not working. I tried to find the cause but could not find it. If you know, I would like to know.
You have to set up the controls, instead of the normal "pitch" option there will be a specific "F-22 Pitch" (not sure that that is how its called, and since im away I cant check).
Some people have asked Cap, did Simba have the G-limiter in the F-22 turned *OFF* ? As I understand it, the F-22s G-limiter makes a big difference with it's turn performance and is supposed to reflect the plane protecting the pilot, not protecting itself from damage or a stall.
yes the g limiter was off. but guys GS does his thing making videos.I have no bad blood with the GS crew Cap made this video for everyone to know that yes in the GS video the F22 goes ham on the JAS39. I could do a whole 1 hour video breaking down the tow different fights the GS video and the GR video and show you how the two F22s are different. and how the fluid dynamics of both fights are different as well. GS mad e good video. GR made a good video. But the viewers need to know that #1 two different planes were used. #2 different conditions were used in filming the videos. So at the end of all of the GS vs GR videos which lets face it a lot of viewers watch both channels the 1 thing we call all agree too in the end is this Simba = Chimpanzee
@@simba1113 Are you still claiming that GS was using Nightstorm's mod rather than Grinnelli's? Or do you mean something different when you say that two different planes were used?
@@simba1113 Wasn't it confirmed that GS was using the Grinnelli F-22? I can't say with any certainty what's going on but there definitely seems to be a difference between how the Grennelli plane is behaving when sidewinder is using it and how it's behaving when GS is using it. What sticks out to me isn't really even his Gripen vs F-22 videos. It's how hard Longshot styles on him with the Rafale when GS is in the Gripen, and then when GS gets in the Grinnelli F-22 he beats the Rafale into the dirt. If the Gripen was that good it should be able to hold its own against the Rafale, and it can't. So something just doesn't add up. There's a confounding variable here. I seem to recall GS saying he was using the "new version of Grinelli's F-22" at some point that wasn't "released yet" at the time. I don't know if GS is still using some kind of beta version he got from Grinelli or if that version has since been released. Maybe that's it?
Top speed of 1,500 mph and can super cruise at 1,200 mph, at it's extreme cost, running is often the tactic. But in an extreme case where it need to dog right well computers take over. The jet is capable of pulling such high G's that it will knock out it's pilot so the aircraft actually monitors the pilot and will not allow this. The computer allows the pilot to push close to 9 G's and not above but rather assists the pilot using speed and vectoring to help aid the pilot in maneuvering the aircraft. Also the ability to fire and forget it's missiles side in it's ability to score kills without putting the pilot at risk.
Simple the one that is as realistic as possible, and dosent make a fool out of you dogfighting a gripen (which is an awesome jet up there with the typhoon and rafale).
Cap, I changed wikipedia F-22A's specification to add this sentences "Note: please noted that many F-22A data still classified and only made by speculations by experts. This speculation might start a debate over military forum and aviation enthusiast regarding the F-22A full capabilities." Trying to stop the F-22 war over DCS RUclips
Neither mod is an accurate representation of the F-22, but If I had to choose which _comes closer,_ I'd pick the Grinnelli Mod. If you are new to the Raptor, and you are in a dogfight, consider flying her the way you'd fly an Eagle. Get going about 400 knots, and just walk her around her turning circle. Simple as that. In real life there is no 'special mode' or 'Cobra Button' in the Raptor, and thrust vectoring isn't modelled in either DCS Raptor.
I'd say that neither mod is accurate, at least for the top speed at sea level, the f-22 pilots are forbidden to show the acfts potential in international exercises, I doubt it's a record setter (although possible) more than likely I would say the speed is closer to 850ish, as for the turn rate, the point of the fcs is to ensure that the pilot cannot depart from flight, which only happened in nightstorms version, although rather instantly, I would definitely say that from this data gathered in this one undersells the raptor and the other oversells it, but I'd love to see how the rcs is handled and whatnot, the real raptor has an rcs smaller than that of a bumble bee 🐝 either way, I think both mods are cool and I'd love to see other people make different versions and interpretations of this and other 5th gen mods.
F22 is more of a symbol of American military might than it is a piece of equipment. I do hope you'll continue the series though to put those sort of unusual combat parameters on different airframes, just maybe ease into the Raptor slaughter next time to avoid such mayhem lol.
@@connorraab No i didn't assume a 334 million dollar piece of equipment was developed just to be a national military icon, but I should have assumed someone would misunderstand the suggestive implications of the term "Symbol". So go get on your google and read it. ;)
So if I remember right they diddnt put thrust vectoring on the F-22 for either mod. However the F-22 most definitely has thrust vectoring capabilities.
Cap, you won't know what's real or not and you can't! Because data of F-22A is classified. No one knows the real capabilities and certainly not from wikipedia. So you can't say which one is more realistic at all.
I need some clarification. does the current version of the F-22A raptor from Grinelli require that I have either FC3 or the F-15C module? I cant seem to find a straight answer because they say that the original mod utilized FC3, and then in october 2020, they did a full overhaul. so do I still need to have FC3, or is it now a standalone and completly free mod that doesnt require other modules?
@@TypeZeta2 Mach 3 at high altitudes, not sea level. But still, if that's true, then other planes around should be able to go even faster, since they have better thrust/weight ratios and are not limited by stealthy aerodynamics. So, i call it BS. You might argue that the actual thrust of the F-22 is higher than what's officially known, but don't forget that we're talking about old tech (23 years since first flight), so at this point we kinda know what's the deal with that plane. Plus, i'm pretty sure that RAM coatings can't withstand the mach 3 temperatures.
@@josephbishop3231 Maybe not even the Russians are 20 years behind in terms of military tech, let alone the more advanced European countries. The only reason why there is no F-22 equivalent (granted that the Su-57 is not a match already) is that other countries haven't been willing to spend that much money on an air superiority fighter so far. I don't know if any country can match the US in terms of military tech, but there are a few which ca surely match 23yo US airframes. In this regard, the next few years are going to be interesting, with both the US and Europe putting out 6th generation fighters. Quite a direct comparison, even though Europe is once again divided on 2 separate projects...
As far as I'm aware, both research by two different institution, in this case, two RUclipsr, may had different methodology regarding the test. Certain institution, in this case of two leading DCS RUclipsr, may wish to maintain a degree of status as ‘bearers of truth’ within the disputed mod. Althought I followed both channels, I found their methodology regarding the F-22A flight test had a slight different. During the turn rate test, I find it GR using speed of 350kt and tried to maintained that speed within the given pitch input. On the other side of the coin, GS use slower speed to pitch up beyond the GR's turn rate test result, as he leaned towards instantaneous turn rate rather than maintainable speed turn rate. Because of the nature of the flight physics, those factors accumulated into different result, as other pilot's input. To validate the test, I suggest GS to show full footage of his test in which how he able to validate his result, while GR may tried GS's methodology to achieve a similar result or vice versa. A one-on-one dogfight between two pilot's may not result more concrete result because of many aspects, that may include pilot induced input, hardware, skills, flight experience and so on may disrupts the end-result. As a general note, many F-22A aspects were still classified, so the "F-22A test data" should be discussed between the two institution and the mod maker himself, to describe how his "F-22A" work. Many online unclassified data, such as from real life video and F-16.net forums, many estimated the sustainable turn rate leaned towards the 28 degrees with instantaneous turn rate may exceed 35 degrees a second. Because of the nature of the physics work on both aircraft, in real life and in the DCS, other factors maybe an instrumental factor to put into calculation such as drag, weight, wing flex, as well as G-forces. Many experts in the Internet forums may produce their own claimed, in which some use Red Flag exercises as an example, or using leaked USAF data. Some may sceptical regarding the turn rate of the real life Raptors due to her similarities to the prohibited performance similar to Eurocanards fighter such as Typhoon, Rafale, and Grippen. Many also cited that the "poorer" capabilities might be the result of prohibited capabilities, yet still locked to the public eyes. Because of the nature of DCS environment, many political and nation-proud aspect may poured into account that destroyed the immersivebillity of the gameplay, due to political reasons. As a suggestion, I suggest both institution, to lower both of your ego and opened up a discussion regarding the issue. In discussion, I hope one poorly informed brain may worked together with others poorly informed brain, that may lead to clearer image after the discussion of the "F-22A" puzzle.
@@Evolutionist199 I did not steal the mod. I never claimed it as my own or even a separate mod. It's a mod to the original that requires the original. I'd appreciate that you check your facts before making public slanderous comments. Thank you.
@@nocapp_ well yes and no.. you can see the engines vector and it really doesn’t but it’s got crazy AoA and you can point the nose pretty much at will. I can do some crazy trick shots with the Raptor.
*We have been told by Growling Sidewinder that he uses the Grinnelli Mod
yessss
Thanks for the update on that Cap and GR.
i mean the easiest way to settle it is if you fight him piloting the grippen and he pilots the raptor.
Growling Sidewinder released a video yesterday with the F-22 absolutely running circles around the Gripen with the Grinnelli mod.
Like, not even close, absolute joke. He even jokes about how the only way the F-22 would lose would be with a chimpanzee in the F-22 and Chuck Yeager in the Gripen.
Do you think this might point to something like either an in-sim plane configuration mistake, or maybe even just mods misbehaving? The difference in ability was simply staggering and really pointed to it not being a simple matter of pilot skill.
Note the different aircraft symbology on the fuel screen on the right side between the two mods. Just checked against GS' latest video. He is indeed using Grinnelli mod. Could the potential difference between you and GS be down to different speeds at the merge? I don't recall your speed during the Gripen video, but in GS' video they were merging @ .7-.8 mach.
Hello all. I'm also know as "Nightstorm". I literally just found out about this video less than an hour ago and watched it. I know the court of public opinion can be unjust and maybe I'm just kicking over a hornets nest here but I thought I would post my side of the story for anyone that cares. I'm a 50 year old guy in MN that just happens to be a huge fan of the F22. First and foremost, I have absolutely nothing but the highest esteem for Grinnelli and his team. It was NEVER my intention to compete with, disparage against or otherwise infringe on any of their efforts. Without their efforts we wouldn't have an F22 mod at all right now. That said. All I intended to do originally was just tweak some aspects of the F22 mod to my liking. Things like, modifying displays or making some of the non functional displays do something. I know it's not accurate, but that's the trouble with a mod of a classified plane, it can never be completely accurate. And it's not that I think there was anything wrong with the original mod at all. I wanted to add additional capabilities bases on what information I could find. In order to do that, I couldn't use the stock F22.lua file due to the encryption. So I used another modified version of the first F22 mod version as it wasn't encrypted and made adjustments from there. I based the thrust values on the actual Wiki information for the engines. The thrust table in newtons is calculated base on that too. And when it was done and tested, the aircraft would actually supercruise and achieve speeds it was purported to be capable of. I assumed that the original values were intended to not make the Raptor even more over powered than it already was. My intention was for single player use, and primarily for my own enjoyment. Personally, I don't play multi. The fact is, all of the changes I've made were either modifications of the existing code or some minor additions to graphics etc. I only shared it out for the purpose of sharing period. I didn't stand to gain from anything and I certainly didn't anticipate a negative reaction. And again, the original idea was just making adjustments that I liked for my personal use. It was NEVER intended to be a competition. And the aerodynamic performance of the mod to the mod except for the thrust, was based on the first release version. For any that I offended, I humbly apologize. Thank you.
Thanks David, don't worry, we are friends with everyone here at GR. Would love to sit down and chat one day. I've started to make my own basic mods.
@@grimreapers Are your own mods public?
I thank you for your efforts regardless
Oh hey I know you lol.
you're amazing!
Who's Raptor mod is more realistic?
Answer: classified
Yes
I don’t think they classify aerodynamic information. They classify radar and sensor information tho.
@@myusername3689 top speed too is classified, hell they even lie about their aim 120C-5 maximum ranged advertising at 40nm or 74km max range but in reality its capable of 100km max range and India found that out in the hard way. Russia/China likes to overstate but US loves to understate making their competitor to be over confident.
@@myusername3689 There is not a single picture of the real F-22 cockpit. look it up, you wont find anything.
@@noahcustode9727 Yeah, I've seen the actual sim, and set in a full mock up of the Raptor. The mod here is just a toy, and nothing else. You can use it to have fun. And eve to explore a little of the advantage that low observable technology gives you, but in no way is it a Raptor. Watching a Lockheed test piolet show off it's BVR capabilities in the sim was absolutely fantastic. If I wasn't a Lockon player I would have been so lost. But as it was I was astounded at what it could do. But even that I will not talk about at all in public forum. I know some dream of it, but a full Fidelity Raptor would absolutely ruin gameplay in DCS.
GS is definitely the better dogfighter so I'll choose his side lmao
Sorry, but my money will be on Long Shot. More often than not GS got shot down by LS in a one vs. one dogfight.
So two things, GS uses Grinneli's mod so right off the bat you've already shown you didn't really care to fact check. Secondly, GS is Canadian. What national pride is a Canadian getting out of showing the capabilities of the F-22 lmao.
Dude's mad because GS is a better pilot lmao
Hey, Cap regularly says he doesn't know anything about anything.... so why would you expect fact checking...and he has actually noted that GS uses Grinnelis mod once he was aware of that.
@@Decrepit_biker Well you should know what you're talking about when you accuse someone of cheating.
@@Just_A_Random_Desk I didn't accuse anyone of cheating? I am not sure how you came to that conclusion!
@@Decrepit_biker GR did, not you.
GS has and is using grinellis mod he was actually chosen to debute grinellis f-22 if you really want to know just ask him don't speculate the dcs community has enough controversy
Also if anyone cares. Here's how I reached the thrust values I used.
First we'll use the F-15C Eagle as a bench mark.
From the latest data mine version of DCS which was 2.7.7.14727 here are the thrust values for the F-15 in its LUA file.
thrust_sum_max = 13347,
thrust_sum_ab = 21952,
Those values are in kilograms force or kgf. If you convert them to kilonewtons kN you get;
130.9 KN
215.3 kN
According to McDonnell Douglas F-15 Eagle - Wikipedia
Powerplant: 2 × Pratt & Whitney F100-PW-220 afterburning turbofans, 14,590 lbf (64.9 kN) thrust each dry, 23,770 lbf (105.7 kN) with afterburner
Note that's "EACH" so those values are for one engine. Double those values and what do you get?
129.8 kN Dry
211.4 kN Afterburner
Pretty darned close to what's in the LUA.
Now, lets check the F-22. Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor - Wikipedia
Powerplant: 2 × Pratt & Whitney F119-PW-100 augmented turbofans, 26,000 lbf (116 kN) thrust each dry, 35,000 lbf (156 kN) with afterburner
So what's the math on a pair of those?
232 kN Dry
312 kN Afterburner
What does that equal in kgf?
23660 and 31820 kgf respectively.
Here are the lines from the modified F22.lua I'm using;
thrust_sum_max = 24000, -- thrust in kgf (235 kN) or 52000 lbf total (12000 kgf / 26000 lbf per engine) --NIGHTSTORM 13347
thrust_sum_ab = 31751, -- thrust in kgf (311 kN) or 70000 lbf total (15875.5 kgf / 35000 lbf per engine) --NIGHTSTORM 21952
You can also see to the far right what the original values were. It's not exact, I could make it exact but its pretty darned close.
So what I did then for the thrust table was calculate the difference between the original and the actual and then adjusted the values of the thrust table by that difference since it was of course based on the original values.
The end result was an F22 that could super cruise at Mach 1.82 and reach speeds of Mach 2.5. Which in my opinion is a pretty cool testament to the DCS engine.
I'm not infallible, if anyone see's anything wrong with my information or conclusions PLEASE, point them out. Thanks!
Thanks David! :)
Funny that GS is using the Grinnelli and got consistently the exactly opposite results against the Grippen.
With all due respect to Cap, GS is a beast at the dogfight.
thats why its silly to take his videos as any kind of real comparison. hes just testing what vehicle him and his buddy are better with not what vehicle is actually better.
GS is one of the best dogfighters out there soo
@@richieh53 I got the same result as GS and I’m a moron with very little experience with DCS. Why is this gentleman getting polar opposite results?
@@Make-Asylums-Great-Again his opponent doesn’t know what he’s doing.
OK cap, you have to remember that quite a few of the F-22's systems are still quite classified so thay can not be put into these mods. So no matter how hard anyone tries all mods well greatly differ from one another and the real thing.
Too many question marks in the analysis to say which mod is more accurate with respect to the actual Raptor.
Awhile back I described the time when a real Raptor came very low across our property chasing down a Cessna trying to sneak through the no-fly zone surrounding Donald Trump's Bedminster, New Jersey golf course. The Raptor could not have been more than a few hundred feet agl when he literally stood on his tail at low speed and pretty much pivoted about 100 degrees to his left. He had total control... sound was deafening. Chased that sucker back the other way behind our home. This was in essence a real world intercept and the Raptor pilot made great use of thrust vectoring when he needed it. I think the Raptor is more capable than we think.
Definitely
The US LOVES to understate their aircrafts capabilities
Also the USAF: "We have no idea what these UFO's are lmao"
Same. I’ve seen the f-22 in the desert flying like a 30 ton hummingbird that turns into a rocket. I don’t buy these stats for even a second.
When I was a kid I saw the raptor (if I remember correctly) at an airshow (I didn't realise how rare of an opportunity that was until recently lol) and the piolet basically hovered on the spot, facing straight up a few hundred meters directly above the crowd, and I had hearing protection on, the engines were nowhere near full power, I could tell because the sound was quite low pitched, but my god, the whole crowd felt it the same time, it was like bending over and opening the oven, hot air washed over us and I could feel my guts vibrating and the ground quaking, not to mention my ears were hurting from how loud it was. If nothing else that experience gave me undying respect for how powerful the raptor's engines were. Just while we are sharing personal stories :)
"I think the Raptor is more capable than we think." I have always thought us military aviation has been so advanced in the past (think about the fact the sr-71 entered service in the 60's, that shit would have been alian tech to anyone not in the know) with long periods before stuff is declassified, that the US keeps its top-notch stuff under wraps by not utilising it's full potential or just building a prototype of something super advanced and then going back to the drawing board for a while, if something happens they take the design into production and bam, super weapon out of nowhere. Like the f-35 is cool, but not an extraterrestrial spacecraft. There were reports while back (with pictures) of some rediculosly fast and high flying UFO in the navarda area (sound see where this is going?), it had a unique co-trail of singular smoke rings spaced every few miles, no current engine anyone knows about can do that. The point is I wouldn't be surprised if the raptor could do supercruise space flight and be anywhere if the world in minutes, and it just has never been needed (not saying I think that specifically but something crazy like that).
As a close follower of Lockheed Martin for 20 years, and an avid military aircraft enthusiast, I have to ssy:
We need to understand: the game has almost nothing to do with the plane in real life. The Cockpit, the avionics, the performance are all classified. All we can do is enjoy an interpretation of the plane in a game. And if that's not up to expectations, realize it's just a game and there's no way for us to actually know what the plane is capable of.
it's a simulation....not a game.
@@canconservative8976 relax tiger.
@@canconservative8976 In the case of the Raptor mod.... Game.
@@canconservative8976 Actual fighter pilots will tell you different.
@@canconservative8976 it simulates playing a game.
Are things getting snarky between GR & GS? GS just put up a picture post of his turn rate to make a point, and all the commenters seem to be calling for GR blood.
Nah, I pranked them both, I "leaked" a classified data and they aren't happy about it. I sent 'em video to Binkov battleground haha
@@firmaneffendi2801 youtube/thathappened
Just went and checked… GS uses the Grinneli mod
Yeah he's said that about 10 times in his vids
Ok so now we need a showdown, *Cap in the Grippen VS GS in the Grinnelli F22*
agree
@@grimreapers make it happen
Cough
@@imadrifter apparently GS doesn’t wanna do it lmao
@@92HazelMocha he doesn't want to bring more clout to gs
Remember, max speed at sea level is a structural issue not a power issue. You can literally collapse the fuselage on the intake side of the engine. Some aircraft have the power to exceed their max speed at sea level. One test I'd recommend is start at sea level and low speed, point the nose straight up and see how long it takes to get to 20,000, 40,000, 60,000ft. That should let you know if its a power or drag issue.
A fun future video would be to see which DCS aircraft can beat the Streak Eagles record of 207 seconds to reach 98,000ft.
Hi I studied aircraft engineering and been a spanner man 12 years going on commercial.
I'm interested in the physics of the fuselage collapsing I've never heard that before at speed at sea level.
@@jamesnorth7318 Let me clarify, I should have said inlet. Of course with a single engine, parts of the fuselage are the inlet. :-)
Think about how a jet engine works. The back is a high pressure area. The front is a low dynamic pressure area. At speed at sea level you have a very low dynamic pressure inside and a very high outside static pressure (14.7 psi) pushing in. Of course at altitude, the pressure differential is much smaller so heating and shock waves are the main issue. Most aircraft have a max speed at sea level of around 1.2 mach. Above this speed the weight of the structure needed is not worth the small speed gain.
If you want to hear how much jet engines suck, there is a great video from a weather balloon while a A320 flies past. You can hear the air being sucked into the engines. It's amazing.
@@Sarge714 thanks for the reply man must check that video out. A long time ago being to collage. I actually forgot all about dynamic low pressure. Whoops..
@@jamesnorth7318 Don't worry about it. Wait until you get old, you'll be amazed at what you forget. :-) The old NACA archives have lots of cool stuff. I think they are online now. They researched and published so much between 1900-1950's.
@@Sarge714 lol Ive been a spanner man for 11 years and the process is still beat in me FOD,torque settings, house keeping etc I still work that way with everything I do mechanical. I've been out of the aircraft maintenance for over a year and I'm feeling rusty lol . Soon comes back though.
Growling Sidewinder and Shot Gun actually know how to dog fight, they not empirical, they actually understand how these airplanes work. In other words you can give a Ferrari to bob down the street, and he will get very different results, compared to Michael Schumacher. This is not how it should be done men, every fighter pilot who is chosen to fly these planes for real, is like a formula one driver and they know how to get the most out of the machine. And in GS own words, if you put Chuck Yeager in the Gripen and a chimpanzee in the raptor you can beat the f22.. Get Mr. Sidewinder to do the comparison, although I think with respect, that's beneath the man.
That’s what I thought when I saw GR’s F-22 vs J-20 video, neither one of them jam the WEZ, also the JAS vs F-22 video it didn’t show the full capability of F-22, not disrespecting but it is what it is
Yes, but to compare the mods you should be empirical. You have to have a baseline from which to extrapolate your data.
@@Decrepit_biker I would agree with you, but then you would collect the telemetry from an expert. Not Bob down the street mate. I have so many questions on the videos, why did they not jam the wez, was the fight computer turned off, why did they not know which buttons to press in engagement, why did they make so many mistakes. This is hardly even empirical, it's confusing, I understand that the Jas is an easier mod to fly, but if you have the machine in the right hands the F22 is a beast, and even in Mr Sidewinders hands in the last fight against the Su 35, he lost it a few times too, if the plane is in the hands of a expert like shotgun, longshot or Growling sidewinder and there are a bunch of other expert dcs pilots, (me being the chimp) they would fly the plane more empirical, that is why GS does the tac review afterwards. Explaining every move and highlighting his own errors. This is my critic on the video, not bias, but practical, and for heavens sake not emotional.
@@Michaelkaraz I'm not examining the origional video, where the Raptor faced the Gripen. I do think that the origional video was a fair(ish) comparison of the kinematics of the two aircraft models ( though not the real aircraft, but thats not what is being tested as we don't have multi million pound jets lying around to play with) It clearly showed the difference in the abilities of the flight models, regardless of any mistakes by the pilots. Also these videos are made for fun purposes, you say get an expert to do it. Well if these 2 pilots are similarly skilled and of average ability it is surely more representative of the actual community? Asto the actual fighting capability of each aircraft, well I am sure that if fully utilised the Raptor would of easily beaten the Gripen in an actual engagement from realistic ranges. I am examining this video where the 2 Raptor mods are being compared, and as such they are looking to purely compare the kinematic ability of each, and this can only be done by attempting to do the exact same maneuvers and measuring the difference in response and capability.
That thumbnail made me laugh with the title
The argument holds true even after this vid Cap. The video made by GS using Grinnelli's Mod (which you found out later I guess) still out performed Gripen. Would love to see a colab to put this to rest!
It comes down to GS use of coordinated turns way more. He utilizes the rudder really well in making his crazy tight turns when he needs to, including letting the raptor sort of flat spin if he needs to. I still haven't watched GS "F22 Raptor VS. Jas39 Gripen Dogfight" video yet. Watching that next here. My prediction is he wins the fight by utilizing coordinated turning techniques that allow him to come nose on in a one circle super quick. Also proper lead turns in the merge as well as jamming the weapons employment zone against opponent missile launches.
@@Tora1337 GS was in the Gripen he got another pilot 2 fly the 22!!
Also, c'mon man. The F-22, and then the Gripen. One has Thrust Vectoring, one does not. One has Aim-9Xs... One does not. One has stealth, one does not. It doesn't take much to beat that regular 4.5 Gen fighter when you fly the 5th gen Air Superiority fighter such as the F-22
@@leogibney neither have thrust vectoring in the game, they both can fly 9x' but the one you are thinking of does not have hmcs. its a game after all shouldn't over analyze it.
@@leogibney Gripen is actually more agile then the F22. Based on how they perform in real life.
There is one mod. The other, is a mod of a mod. He didnt code it, he just tweeked things. Grinnelli helped him learn what he was doing. Just for information purposes.
thx
@@grimreapers No problem. Love the series. Keep up the hard work and long hours Reapers.
Someone who knows the facts…
^ This. I didn't write a mod. I modified the mod ;) And here's the reply I posted above. I know I'm WAAAAY late to this party but I didn't know about this until this morning.
Hello all. I literally just found out about this video less than an hour ago and watched it. I know the court of public opinion can be unjust and maybe I'm just kicking over a hornets nest here but I thought I would post my side of the story for anyone that cares. I'm a 50 year old guy in MN that just happens to be a huge fan of the F22. First and foremost, I have absolutely nothing but the highest esteem for Grinnelli and his team. It was NEVER my intention to compete with, disparage against or otherwise infringe on any of their efforts. Without their efforts we wouldn't have an F22 mod at all right now. That said. All I intended to do originally was just tweak some aspects of the F22 mod to my liking. Things like, modifying displays or making some of the non functional displays do something. I know it's not accurate, but that's the trouble with a mod of a classified plane, it can never be completely accurate. And it's not that I think there was anything wrong with the original mod at all. I wanted to add additional capabilities bases on what information I could find. In order to do that, I couldn't use the stock F22.lua file due to the encryption. So I used another modified version of the first F22 mod version as it wasn't encrypted and made adjustments from there. I based the thrust values on the actual Wiki information for the engines. The thrust table in newtons is calculated base on that too. And when it was done and tested, the aircraft would actually supercruise and achieve speeds it was purported to be capable of. I assumed that the original values were intended to not make the Raptor even more over powered than it already was. My intention was for single player use, and primarily for my own enjoyment. Personally, I don't play multi. The fact is, all of the changes I've made were either modifications of the existing code or some minor additions to graphics etc. I only shared it out for the purpose of sharing period. I didn't stand to gain from anything and I certainly didn't anticipate a negative reaction. And again, the original idea was just making adjustments that I liked for my personal use. It was NEVER intended to be a competition. And the aerodynamic performance of the mod to the mod except for the thrust, was based on the first release version. For any that I offended, I humbly apologize. Thank you.
@@davidmcmasters5420 Thank you to both you and Grinnelli. I only play single player and use your updated F-22 mod. I particularly like your comments in the LUA files explaining some of the changes. I have my paid modules for when I want absolute realism.
I only just found out that 'Attitude Hold' in the F-22 mod is actually 'Waypoint follow'; Game changer! If I set the last waypoint to 'Landing' on an airfield, the Nav mode changes to INLS automatically after the last waypoint so it's pretty much auto-landing apart from pulling up at the last second or so.
Speed is classified… Wikipedia is wrong bro
I pranked them both, because I had change all Wikipedia data (vandalism) of F-22 with Su-35 data lol. Joke asside, yes Wikipedia aren't accurate either because they are only speculation made by experts on their own valid arguments
The old argument was between realism and fun. I would argue that Lock-on was intended more towards the fun side but DCS decided long ago to go down the realism route. Nightstorm is taking a different path, the values used aren't intended to make the plane easier to fly for the gamers, it's to make 'your sides' equipment unrealistically better. Spot on Cap.
Well the F-22 has thrust vectoring, so theoretically it should be able to turn with 0 speed, but of course without any roll and yaw control because that still needs some airflow, which seems exactly like what the Nightstorm mod is doing.
yes of course it could theoretically turn at 0 speed, what the fuck are you saying.
@@cpt.macmellon8251 your point???
@@Youda00008 the F22 has roll control with the thrust vectoring
You guys really need to just do a collab video and discuss test findings. Maybe take turns merging?
It's a milsim, so it makes sense that people would want to know which mod is the closest to the real-world thing. There's no way to tell with 100% certainty on either mod, but it stands to reason Grinnelli has probably made the more accurate mod off the data available. People are free to use whichever mod they want, but for what these guys do, it seems fitting and perfectly reasonable to use the one that they can adequately show is more accurate to the information that has been provided to the public thus far. Good video.
Now I understand it's a game and that there are things about the F-22 that won't be on DCS because it's classified so it's never going to be "realistic".. however in terms of accuracy there are things we know such as the Lockheed F-22 does have thirst vectoring.. so wouldn't the Night Storm more accurate?
Wait, you can't have one mod or another, you HAVE to have Grinelli's F22 before you can install the Nightstorm mod on top of it, right?
measuring something like stall speed or glide ratio at a given speed might give some further insight into which one behaves more accurately
buuuut then you would also have to estimate those for the real raptor first
Very enlightening, its true we do not know what the raptor f22 classified things are but this vid gives an idea of what might be true.
So GR/GS cross over when??? Obviously seems like a joint video is needed next.
The result would either be a bunch of growling reapers or a very grim sidewinder.
As much as I would love it, seeing GS's recent community post and its comments in dont think it's gonna happen any time soon unfortunately 😕
@@snux7364 yeah.....i just saw it.
@@KrisTheLVN animosity between 2 of my favourite context creators yay 😐
@@snux7364 they need to have a dog fight, bvr fight, and challenge each other to a classic GR skill completion before shaking hands and making up.... or some ears need boxing.
Cap: it's not goanna Win every dogfight
F-22: And I took that personally
Time for Grim Reapers v Growling Sidewinder Using Gripen and F22A. 2 pilots enter 1 pilots leaves.
Beat me to it. My money’s on Cap
@@92HazelMocha my money's on gs
GS wins all day every day.
Gs is the best dog fighter on RUclips so my money would be on him
@@dougdimadome8616 he is excellent but he got shot down by Shot gun today. GS was flying F22 and shotgun was flying SU35.
no one has stats on this plane...its a secret for a reason. it will reportedly do mach 2. neither mod does that. we have no thrust vectoring, the thing will turn on a dime and it can cruise at mach 1.5 without afterburner. Grinelli gave us all an F22 to play with Nightstorm gave us an F22 to kill russians. I dont think we should complain about either your free to do what you want but neither of them had to do anything for anyone especially for free
True. And not everyone knows everything about the F-15 either, there are unpublished secrets there too... and that plane is _how old_?
My hats off to you Cap for making this vid! Great comparison and data points.
My hats off as well to Grinellini for making the mod and the painstaking yet phenomenal attention to detail!
F22 pilots are forbidden from using certain functions and capabilities while training even with our allies so there is a lot of unknown qualities out there. The only thing we do know is that the F22 can probably do some amazing shit and the only way we will know definitively is if it actually used in combat and it is revealed. IMHO.
It’s a 30 year old plane. One that’s on the retirement block. It doesn’t have any tricks left up it’s sleeve. It is a shame it didn’t get more time in action though.
@@92HazelMocha It definitely has tricks left, don't underestimate it because it's older than most modern jets.
@@Just_A_Random_Desk At the time of the F22’s development, a computer equal in power to your cellphone was the size of a building. Technology has advanced exponentially since it was designed and built. Things like helmet hud’s and other standard features on modern aircraft the F22 simply does not have access to.
@@92HazelMocha I was unaware that you're one of the engineers who designed the very classified F-22.
@@Just_A_Random_Desk Of course I’m not, they’ve either died of old age or have Alzheimer’s. That’s how old the plane is.
wow, yall are so creative when it comes to these never ending ideas... nice
Thank you Cap. I agree with most of your analysis, however, as Chuck Yeager use to say, "it's not the crate in the fight, but the man in the crate that determines the outcome of a dogfight". Growling Sidewinder (GS) mentioned this in his video yesterday, by saying, he was using another DCS pilot (Call sign - Shotgun), whom in GS's words was "Competent enough to fly the F-22", and get the most of of it's capabilities. GS flew the Gripen, and Shotgun flew the F-22. In in least 5 rounds, the F-22 won without much effort and only once seemed to be any sort of danger .. before it gunned down the Gripen.
I will agree without a any hesitation that the Saab J39 Gripen is an outstanding aircraft and arguable the best fighter in the world on a " Bang for the Krona" basis that's currently in service. However, in the world of Money is no object, the F-22 is the superior fighter and in the hands of a pilot skilled enough to make full use of its performance and capabilities the F-22 is still the undisputed master of the skies currently in service.
I have included a link to Growling Sidewinders video for those interested. Thank you Cap!!
ruclips.net/video/W60cQhAB-Ow/видео.html&ab_channel=GrowlingSidewinder
white youtube background!? how do i add the vomit emoji?
If you are looking at pure data the true data should be right down the middle in speed or if not closer to Nightstorm's recode.
If you compare The data of the F22 and the F15 based off Wikipedia
F22 F15C
Wingspan: 44ft 42ft
Length: 62ft 63ft
Thrust: ~70k lbs 47540 lbs
Max Speed(Mach): 2.25 2.5
Sea level (Mach): 1.2 1.2
The F22 has much more thrust and a more modern airfoil but has slower speeds publicly. The true F22, I would wager, has a max speed at sea level of 1.35 to 1.45. Unfortunately DCS doesn't allow for thrust vectoring which would make Grinnelli's mod more accurate but it looks like Nightstorm tried to compensate for that which is what made it unflyable. I think that the F22 J20 and SU57 all underperform to their real life counterparts.
I looked a couple of videos of an F-22 turning at 9g and the turn rate is around 19-20 degrees per second.
That's impressive.
@@grimreapers What could be even more impressive is the F-35C. There’s 2 videos of it turning at over 18 degrees per second at what appears to be 7-7.5g. Not sure if there are many fighter aircraft that can turn this fast at 9g and here’s the F-35C going 18 degrees at around 7g.
What about comparing these models to observations of things like "minimum radius turn" on airshow footage????
rgr
1. Can't find anything on the internet about a HALO top-secret plane.
2. Seeing real F22s doing crazy stuff at airshows while being limited on what it can show.
3. using Wikipedia as factual information
4. F22 smokes multiple F15 in 1 vs multiple training all the time
🤔.......yes the F22 that handles like a super F15 without thrust vectoring is definitely the real one 👌
The essence of DCS is to ensure the flight models are as accurate as possible.
Roger, I suppose it has to be a "best guess"
Also also… you don’t lead turn at all when you BFM.
I believe the best way to determine which version of the F/A-22 is the most realistic is to have a squadron of real U.S.A.F. Raptor pilots test them and have them give their opinion, and good luck with that because they probably will not be allowed to give their opinion due to security concern.
Would love that.
No such thing as an F/A-22
If a grip can out dogfight a 22 it’s not even close to real
Dunno, the Rafale did it IRL in 2009.
@@Mrnothinginterest that 2009 fight was a good fight by the Rafale, didnt look like the raptor was trying to hard. Rafale pulled 9gs while most GS pulled by Raptor was 5
@@Mrnothinginterest The t-38 has raptor kills your point is irrelevant
@@AnthonyCarrierRUclips Source?
@@koc988 In that Particular incident, the Raptor's Pilot was a cadet, a beginner. Pilots sent in international exercises most definitely aren't.
Like Raptor pilot's always say that if the Raptor gets into a knife fight with an enemy plane then the pilot of the Raptor has done something wrong.
All the ladies go wild when Cap start talking all scientific
agree x
I have a close friend who pilots the F22 and I told him about your simulator. I found out some things that changes my out look on the F22. The biggest being how it fights, idea being not to dog right at all. See first, fire first and stay undetected. If it manages to find it's self in a dog fight it could choose to fight or run, if it runes, well speed is it's friend, it has too speed
1v1 fight between European delta winged jets... Gripen vs Mirage when?
The F-22 is still very classified and it hasn't actually been combat tested so the DCS mods aren't even close to being like the real Raptor (very sexy jet though)
Yes it has. It’s flown missions over Syria multiple times. Air to ground.
I'd like to point out that if you watch GS's videos, he has a video on demonstrating the F-22A mod when it was released and gave a quick tutorial. If you care to check the link he gives, it's the Grinnelli Mod. I see you actually already addressed this, so this comment is more for posterity than anything I guess.
Roger thanks :)
Imagine claiming your amateur mod based on the Su-27 FM is realistic in any aspect.
And as to the actual capabilities of the Euro fighter, Rafale, SU-35, Gripen JAS, and J-17?
Must be awkward as a mod maker to decide on the parameters to use when there is no public data. Haven’t the DCS designers run foul of using ‘too current’ info, thinking F16. So unless DCS wants to limit itself to obsolete types that have data in the public domain… yer gonna keep having this problem. Add on standard vs advanced flight models, yer playing for fun, not for rl training 😏
have either of them fixed the bug where the AIM-9X growl overwrites the Heatblur AIM-9M growl?
I appreciate that Mr. Grinelli has made the effort to at least try to have his mod behave in a plausible way but in terms of realism, any community-made "superplane" is going land somewhere between Ace Combat and War Thunder. Since DCS is being sold as the most realistic combat flight simulator available (which it kind of is), I would classify any serious content featuring any of these mods as a detestable form of clickbait. People, being the predictable hardwired beasts that they are, fall for it every time, which leaves the content creator responsible for not becoming another "grinelli grifter".
I think you're the type of being hardwired to fall for yourself.
Can "Grinnelli's F-22A" do Post-Stall Maneuver (like "Pugachev's Cobra")?
If it can't do, it isn't "real life F-22A" too.
..Who can increase more air resistance to Nightstorm's F-22A?
The F22’s post-stall capabilities are due to its vertical axis thrust vectoring, having it doesn’t make stats any more or less accurate.
@@92HazelMocha That's right, but I think "Nightstorm's F-22 in FCS-limit off" can do PSM because it can high-alpha flight. Maybe less accurate..
Then, if can increase air resistance to N's F-22A, I think it is similar to real rife F-22A.
Of course, if G's F-22A can perform more aggressive high-alpha flight, we may get same result.
Why not edit the lua file to add aircraft "F-22C"?
I'm working on some things over here ☹️🤣
Of course Wikipedia has the correct stats like maximum speed. Lol. The pilots aren’t even allowed to reveal it’s prowess during Int’l excercises. When was the last time anywhere for anything a speed record from 1977 not been broken. #really?
Without variable position thrust modelling in DCS, and with such limited information availabe about those planes, it really is an argument about opinions (specifically the mod makers) .... I enjoyed the video! You can never know where wikipedia data comes from, so not the best source, although, it's the only source we have. I'm not sure what the govt data says, but it's highly likley to down play or uplift the performance depending on their geopolitical stance.
That turn radius in the base Grinnelli mod is probably fine for an F-22 without thrust vectoring enabled... but IRL with thrust vectoring I'm pretty sure its a bit closer to Nightstorm's... I mean go watch some videos where the F-22 is showing off some of its thrust vectoring ability... of course it can do some really crazy tight turns and flips if the pilot feels he needs to do them to get the nose authority ruclips.net/video/yrDnXEKlSY4/видео.html. Only thing I can probably agree on is the speeds, but it's also the only bit of publicly available info you can find... that miiight not even be true since it is still a fairly heavily classified aircraft.
Doesnt stop u from losing control in a to tohght turn due to lack of air cushin
@@aggravated_assault With how thrust vectoring works you can still roll and flip your plane with enough control even at 0 speed. Greatly depends on how low to the ground and heavy you are. Only thing the F-22 lacks with thrust vectoring is ability to add yaw input. You are NOT just going to have absolutely no stick input at low speeds like this simplified flight model shows.
Plus these F-22 airshow pilots are fairly restricted from showing off a lot of the thrust vectoring ability to keep everyone more in the dark of what this plane is really capable of.
I doubt you would lose too much control of the plane in the hands of a properly trained pilot that isnt going to freak out yanking the stick all sorts of different directions at low altitude like a dummy.
@@zafiroyashirena4394 i dont mean low speed i mean losing control in a to tight turn
@@aggravated_assault You're not giving me enough to go by here. I dont think you understand just how much control thrust vectoring gives a plane, especially one with as advanced of a fly-by-wire system as the F-22 has.
With thrust vectoring, lack of air cushion is not a factor. It all depends on how much thrust can your engines provide, how much can you manipulate the thrust vectoring nozzles and how well can the fly-by-wire computer retain control of the aircraft.
Literally the only way you can lose control of this plane is if the fly-by-wire system was entirely turned off somehow. I think what you are talking about is departure from flight. If so there is such a thing as controlled departure from flight that a lot of thrust vectoring aircraft are capable of doing.
Excuse my comment.
I also put in the F22 mod, but the pitch is not working.
I tried to find the cause but could not find it.
If you know, I would like to know.
You have to set up the controls, instead of the normal "pitch" option there will be a specific "F-22 Pitch" (not sure that that is how its called, and since im away I cant check).
I feel like if the stuff was declassified then the Nightstorm one would be more realistic 😂
Some people have asked Cap, did Simba have the G-limiter in the F-22 turned *OFF* ?
As I understand it, the F-22s G-limiter makes a big difference with it's turn performance and is supposed to reflect the plane protecting the pilot, not protecting itself from damage or a stall.
yes the g limiter was off. but guys GS does his thing making videos.I have no bad blood with the GS crew Cap made this video for everyone to know that yes in the GS video the F22 goes ham on the JAS39. I could do a whole 1 hour video breaking down the tow different fights the GS video and the GR video and show you how the two F22s are different. and how the fluid dynamics of both fights are different as well. GS mad e good video. GR made a good video. But the viewers need to know that #1 two different planes were used. #2 different conditions were used in filming the videos. So at the end of all of the GS vs GR videos which lets face it a lot of viewers watch both channels the 1 thing we call all agree too in the end is this Simba = Chimpanzee
@@simba1113 Are you still claiming that GS was using Nightstorm's mod rather than Grinnelli's? Or do you mean something different when you say that two different planes were used?
@@simba1113 Wasn't it confirmed that GS was using the Grinnelli F-22?
I can't say with any certainty what's going on but there definitely seems to be a difference between how the Grennelli plane is behaving when sidewinder is using it and how it's behaving when GS is using it.
What sticks out to me isn't really even his Gripen vs F-22 videos. It's how hard Longshot styles on him with the Rafale when GS is in the Gripen, and then when GS gets in the Grinnelli F-22 he beats the Rafale into the dirt.
If the Gripen was that good it should be able to hold its own against the Rafale, and it can't. So something just doesn't add up. There's a confounding variable here.
I seem to recall GS saying he was using the "new version of Grinelli's F-22" at some point that wasn't "released yet" at the time. I don't know if GS is still using some kind of beta version he got from Grinelli or if that version has since been released. Maybe that's it?
Ace vid mate, and thanks for 1 of your other vids showing how to find and downloads the f22 mod. Keep up the good work.
Top speed of 1,500 mph and can super cruise at 1,200 mph, at it's extreme cost, running is often the tactic. But in an extreme case where it need to dog right well computers take over. The jet is capable of pulling such high G's that it will knock out it's pilot so the aircraft actually monitors the pilot and will not allow this. The computer allows the pilot to push close to 9 G's and not above but rather assists the pilot using speed and vectoring to help aid the pilot in maneuvering the aircraft. Also the ability to fire and forget it's missiles side in it's ability to score kills without putting the pilot at risk.
Simple the one that is as realistic as possible, and dosent make a fool out of you dogfighting a gripen (which is an awesome jet up there with the typhoon and rafale).
This doesnt really seem like such a big deal. Just two different interpretations on a very secret military aircraft.
Cap, I changed wikipedia F-22A's specification to add this sentences
"Note: please noted that many F-22A data still classified and only made by speculations by experts. This speculation might start a debate over military forum and aviation enthusiast regarding the F-22A full capabilities."
Trying to stop the F-22 war over DCS RUclips
Thanks Sir!
Hey cap could you do an update buying gide for beginner's because I want to get into dcs and don't know what to buy thanks
rgr
Neither mod is an accurate representation of the F-22, but If I had to choose which _comes closer,_ I'd pick the Grinnelli Mod.
If you are new to the Raptor, and you are in a dogfight, consider flying her the way you'd fly an Eagle. Get going about 400 knots, and just walk her around her turning circle. Simple as that. In real life there is no 'special mode' or 'Cobra Button' in the Raptor, and thrust vectoring isn't modelled in either DCS Raptor.
agree
I'd say that neither mod is accurate, at least for the top speed at sea level, the f-22 pilots are forbidden to show the acfts potential in international exercises, I doubt it's a record setter (although possible) more than likely I would say the speed is closer to 850ish, as for the turn rate, the point of the fcs is to ensure that the pilot cannot depart from flight, which only happened in nightstorms version, although rather instantly, I would definitely say that from this data gathered in this one undersells the raptor and the other oversells it, but I'd love to see how the rcs is handled and whatnot, the real raptor has an rcs smaller than that of a bumble bee 🐝 either way, I think both mods are cool and I'd love to see other people make different versions and interpretations of this and other 5th gen mods.
Its a game, and I think Grinnelli made a great mod to fly in it. Yes, DCS is more sim than game, luv it!
i subscribed a year or two ago how was i unsubed?
F22 is more of a symbol of American military might than it is a piece of equipment. I do hope you'll continue the series though to put those sort of unusual combat parameters on different airframes, just maybe ease into the Raptor slaughter next time to avoid such mayhem lol.
It is a piece of equipment it's ment to be used not just project freedom
@@connorraab No i didn't assume a 334 million dollar piece of equipment was developed just to be a national military icon, but I should have assumed someone would misunderstand the suggestive implications of the term "Symbol". So go get on your google and read it.
;)
The Raptor isn’t supposed to turn at 350Kn? 450 knots is optimal combat speed for the Viper, so why shouldn’t the Raptor turn at 350? 🤔
So if I remember right they diddnt put thrust vectoring on the F-22 for either mod. However the F-22 most definitely has thrust vectoring capabilities.
Cap, you won't know what's real or not and you can't! Because data of F-22A is classified. No one knows the real capabilities and certainly not from wikipedia. So you can't say which one is more realistic at all.
yeh, very annoying...
I need some clarification. does the current version of the F-22A raptor from Grinelli require that I have either FC3 or the F-15C module? I cant seem to find a straight answer because they say that the original mod utilized FC3, and then in october 2020, they did a full overhaul. so do I still need to have FC3, or is it now a standalone and completly free mod that doesnt require other modules?
yes pretty sure. Just get the whole FC3 Pack.
@@grimreapers Okay, thanks for the clarification! :)
I see your point and agree.
Mach 1.2 unclassified, but the true limits are not known by anyone not read in on that info
I’ve heard stories where raptor pilots have been able to achieve Mach 3 but I need to find sources or that’s what they remain. Stories
@@TypeZeta2 Mach 3 at high altitudes, not sea level.
But still, if that's true, then other planes around should be able to go even faster, since they have better thrust/weight ratios and are not limited by stealthy aerodynamics. So, i call it BS.
You might argue that the actual thrust of the F-22 is higher than what's officially known, but don't forget that we're talking about old tech (23 years since first flight), so at this point we kinda know what's the deal with that plane.
Plus, i'm pretty sure that RAM coatings can't withstand the mach 3 temperatures.
@@TypeZeta2 Kinda doubt that, and certainly not at sea level.
@@jorehir "23yo" tech that can't be touched by anything else that's confirmed in production today.
@@josephbishop3231 Maybe not even the Russians are 20 years behind in terms of military tech, let alone the more advanced European countries. The only reason why there is no F-22 equivalent (granted that the Su-57 is not a match already) is that other countries haven't been willing to spend that much money on an air superiority fighter so far.
I don't know if any country can match the US in terms of military tech, but there are a few which ca surely match 23yo US airframes.
In this regard, the next few years are going to be interesting, with both the US and Europe putting out 6th generation fighters. Quite a direct comparison, even though Europe is once again divided on 2 separate projects...
Challenge growling to a duel, only way to settle this.
All sorted, we are friends again now :)
agree
As far as I'm aware, both research by two different institution, in this case, two RUclipsr,
may had different methodology regarding the test. Certain institution, in this case of two leading DCS RUclipsr,
may wish to maintain a degree of status as ‘bearers of truth’ within the disputed mod. Althought I followed both
channels, I found their methodology regarding the F-22A flight test had a slight different. During the turn rate
test, I find it GR using speed of 350kt and tried to maintained that speed within the given pitch input. On the
other side of the coin, GS use slower speed to pitch up beyond the GR's turn rate test result, as he leaned towards
instantaneous turn rate rather than maintainable speed turn rate. Because of the nature of the flight physics, those
factors accumulated into different result, as other pilot's input. To validate the test, I suggest GS to show
full footage of his test in which how he able to validate his result, while GR may tried GS's methodology to
achieve a similar result or vice versa. A one-on-one dogfight between two pilot's may not result more concrete result because
of many aspects, that may include pilot induced input, hardware, skills, flight experience and so on
may disrupts the end-result. As a general note, many F-22A aspects were still classified, so the "F-22A test data"
should be discussed between the two institution and the mod maker himself, to describe how his "F-22A" work.
Many online unclassified data, such as from real life video and F-16.net forums, many estimated the sustainable
turn rate leaned towards the 28 degrees with instantaneous turn rate may exceed 35 degrees a second. Because of the
nature of the physics work on both aircraft, in real life and in the DCS, other factors maybe an instrumental
factor to put into calculation such as drag, weight, wing flex, as well as G-forces. Many experts in the Internet
forums may produce their own claimed, in which some use Red Flag exercises as an example, or using leaked USAF
data. Some may sceptical regarding the turn rate of the real life Raptors due to her similarities to the prohibited
performance similar to Eurocanards fighter such as Typhoon, Rafale, and Grippen. Many also cited that the "poorer"
capabilities might be the result of prohibited capabilities, yet still locked to the public eyes. Because of the
nature of DCS environment, many political and nation-proud aspect may poured into account that destroyed the
immersivebillity of the gameplay, due to political reasons. As a suggestion, I suggest both institution, to lower
both of your ego and opened up a discussion regarding the issue. In discussion, I hope one poorly informed brain
may worked together with others poorly informed brain, that may lead to clearer image after the discussion of the
"F-22A" puzzle.
Great video
Any of them work on steam edition??? Need some add-on?
Go non-steam and get FC3 pack. Then you'll be in business.
Accuracy, it is for DCS which holds that ethos except for Russian planes lol thanks for the quality vid
And both still don’t have thrust vectoring
So, which is better??
4:50
well, alternatively you could just make it have less drag in the mod
Are they both free & which one is free?
Could you not call Nightstorm's version F23?
good idea :)
Or you could call it what it is, stolen…
@@Evolutionist199 I did not steal the mod. I never claimed it as my own or even a separate mod. It's a mod to the original that requires the original. I'd appreciate that you check your facts before making public slanderous comments. Thank you.
Excellent video. Thanks for breaking it down in tac-view, Well done valued RUclipsr.
xx
Car advert txt on desktop sound u r about to go walk and spend lol
You have to dogfight him now
I finally got the f22a (grenelli) to work and it’s pretty awesome! Great AoA
Does it have thrust vectoring?
@@nocapp_ well yes and no.. you can see the engines vector and it really doesn’t but it’s got crazy AoA and you can point the nose pretty much at will. I can do some crazy trick shots with the Raptor.
As real as it can be please!
Do we really know anything about the f-22?
It's grey? That's about it.
How bout both
Growling Sidewinder does many of his kills in the post stall regime, so maybe test that if you haven't already?
It's Ok the rift is over, I 'm sure he is correct. We still like our little low level merges though.
@@grimreapers the low level merges look cool, especially over cities :)