Bed levelling for beginners to achieve a perfect first layer
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- Опубликовано: 1 окт 2024
- Are you struggling to dial in a perfect first layer? Many beginners are, so you’re not alone. This video takes you through the aim and method of manually levelling your 3D printer bed, with a gcode test pattern generator and example diagrams of what to aim for and what to avoid.
It also answers the question of when you might need auto bed levelling, how it works and how to set the Z offset.
Thanks to the community for embracing my calibration website, and helping improve it greatly since launch.
First layer tab of calibration website: teachingtechyt...
Previous video explaining the calibration website: • 3D printer calibration...
Bed levelling X: www.thingivers...
You can also compensate for an uneven bed with manual mesh bed levelling: • Manual Mesh Bed Levell...
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A clean bed is just as important. You can level all you want, if the bed is dirty it still won't stick.
Very true. I find a good quality glass cleaner is better than isopropyl alcohol too (obviously on a glass bed :-) I use Mr Muscle glass cleaner works brilliantly. Even better still, run a glue stick over the surface a few times, let it dry, then wipe the entire surface with glass cleaner, it leaves a small residue of glue and prints stick superbly well.
Im not going to say a clean bed isnt important, but I will say this, at least with build tack sheets and close to a years worth of use on the same one and I never washed it once. Until my build tack stated to get deformed I never had any problems with it at all, if anything it stuck too good.
Im not discouraging anyone from washing their beds, one thing I learned very early on with 3d printing is what works for one dosnt automatically work for everyone. I also just recently switched to a glass bed and I am guessing I am going to have to occasionally wash it, but I have still yet to wash my glass.
Just something to think about before you waste IPA.
PS my printer is in a location where collecting dust is next to impossible, and I only print pla with it. So I am no expert, and you shouldnt take my advice every anyway, but if you do your mileage may vary.
Oh man, thank you for posting what MILLIONS of people have already ever explained. Your words are a treasure of knowledge.
@@Yoursoul101 millions? wow, you must have spent a long time counting them...
@@Yoursoul101 Then are you mad about the video itself for going over what many others have explained?
God, I just love this community (3d printing). A lot of people are happy to help and share what they have learned, and just trying so that we all can have good experience with printing. Love you all
Thanks, that is why I spend so much time - the great community
ya same, so many good tips online, and the creativity seems to bring out the best in people.
Agreed. Best community in tech. This is a good tutorial. Even as an experience print operator I have moments where my brain forgets to apply ordered process to bed leveling. This video always helps.
6:47 As someone who's been bitten hard by his Anet A8 while doing precisely this, let me point out that you need to be damned sure of where the bed is going and/or damned sure you can't get bitten before you attempt this. Getting a thumb or finger pinched between the levelling screw and the frame really, really hurts.
6yjjk very true, those motors are powerful and can really pinch you hard.
"...so we can just feel a little friction on the piece of paper." Can anybody be a little more specific here? "A little" is awfully subjective. I don't know how much friction should be considered "a little."
I think as soon as you start to feel friction might be "a little". Just assure that it is nozzle-paper-bed friction and not only paper-bed friction.
For me, I level it until I feel the tiniest bit of friction, and barely level it so I feel no friction at all in order to have a good starting point before leveling. I tried leveling it with the "Until you feel a little bit of friction, and now my bed has a dent in it from the nozzle ramming into it when I wanted to test the other corners
A ball point pen worth of friction is how I judge
Excellent, well detailed video as usual.
Just wanted to say thank you for all the effort you put into these videos. This gcode generator is a godsend for my different sized beds.
Super video. I've rarely had adhesion problems but when I did, this video sorted me out. I re-leveled, checked my heights, increased my first layer width from 0.4 to 0.6 and slowed my first layer speed to 25%. I've never had better prints.
The idea is correct, but I have a recommendation. Do not disable the steppers; when you want to move the head or the bed, use the menus and let the steppers move it. If you disable the steppers and move the head by hand, you risk altering the height of the x-axis beam, so nullifying your effort. This is particularly true if you do not have a dual-z setup, since the right side of the beam is free to move up and down, and when you slide the head, you are always going to alter its height a tiny bit.
I'm starting in 3D printing, so I'm so happy to find your video. Thanks a lot! Your explanation is great and useful to learn more!
You sir are a legend. After adding a glass bed to my Ender 5 Pro I had all sorts of problems getting the first layer to stick, even after levelling super carefully. But your levelling Gcode file showed me that the printer head to bed distance was still too great, and how to fix it. Awesome, thank you.
IMHO, manual mesh bed leveling works just as well as an ABL. It would have been nice if you covered that.
Great!!! Very good! We’re working in a Portuguese version for The Calibration site.
My worst nightmare with 3d printing from day one was bed leveling
I have problem.even now even though I have been using it for 1.5 years
I had a huge deformation in the middle of the glass sheet on my Artillery Sidewinder after a print got really stuck to the surface. No matter how I levelled the 4 corners nothing would stick in the middle.
An Artillery Facebook group I'm on suggested loosening tension on all 4 sides, then heating the bed to 80 degrees and re-applying tension to try and pop the deformation out. It took a fair bit of time and trial and error, but I did see significant improvement.
I'm not promising results or permanent fixes, but it's worth a shot if things get ridiculous. ABL really is a must when your bed is warped.
I’d like to add that printing a raft can be a lifesaver for people not equipped with ABL to compensate for warping. Also, after struggling for months with bed adhesion, I bought a 1mm PEI sheet and never had an issue again with PLA.
Cant help notice that the table has belt holder for the Lowrider2. Any chance we will be seeing any more videos for the Lowrider?
THIS VIDEO HELPED MUCH, THANK YOU 👍🏼👍🏼👍🏼
How about manuel bed levling, with 9,16,25 points levels? It is not automatic, but it can correct a uneven bed.
Thanks for sharing your great videos :-)
I find 5 x 5 grid is enough. You are correct, if you had enough memory and time you should get a perfect mesh.
Could you make (or have you already ?) a video about trouble shooting for infill? Because I've tried seemingly everything and still have under extrusion. The top, bottom and walls are perfect but for some reason the infill is stringy af and therefore not super strong (it's not too bad but far from perfect or even great). The last thing to try would be to swap the hotend but with everything else working fine, I fail to see what it would do. Great vid as always by the way!
I think I had the same issues. If I remember correctly it was because the amount of filament that is extruded is higher for infill than for perimeters (obviously also depending on your settings). For me it was something with my extruder. So that might be worth checking. I ended up with a different extruder, that kind of solved my problems.
@@mycelstorm7101 yes that might be it. I remember noticing some enhancement when I decreased the speed but it really wasn't practical (something like 25mm/s, I mean I didn't built a custom 3d printer for that kind of speed 😂)
Might be interesting to point out that the extruder make a "knocking" sound like all the time too.
Infill is usually printed at twice the speed of the walls, so the hotend has to provide more energy to keep the filament flowing well enough. Either slow down the infill printing speed, which can usually be controlled separately from the wall speed, or increase the temperature a little. 5 degrees can make a difference. The knocking sound is the extruder skipping steps because it can't push the filament fast enough; it's probably not hot enough and too viscous.
I think it could also be due to a partly clogged nozzle. Your extruder is loosing steps, like pnt said. Nozzle, heaterblock and extruder are the tree things I'd check. And Maybe your step per mm setting. Could be too high and might have caused a partial clogg. Good luck tracing down the issue!
I always have an issue with the centre of my bed being to close to my nozzle, how do I adjust this?
The other four corners are perfect
my former employment as a machinist gave me knowledge of a tool called a drop indicator, which can be used to level the bed quickly and easily, just F.Y.I., hope it helps someone out there.
Just yesterday I designed and printed a bracket for my ender 5 to allow me to use one of my dial guages to level the bed.
The first thing it did was highlight how much bed flex there was on the ender 5 even with the custom supports installed. My nozzle was effectively contacting the bed during first layer print. Mind you if that means consistent adhesion it's not really a problem. After all how many prints are just one layer?
The experimenting will continue though...
hi, I just got a Biqu B1 printer and this video helped me a lot! I think I got a woop in the midle of the bed, cause I level up the 4 cornes but in the center the papershit seems to be a little bit loose.... so I got a few failures cause the peaces just poped off the bed, do you use hair spray on the black bed the biqu b1 uses? and what do you think abotu replacing the magentic black peace with a glass for more flatness.. Thank u so much!
If I had to pick one video to share with people new to 3D printing, this would be the one! This one helped me so much when I was starting a month ago. I went from absolute frustration and failed prints to consistent and reliable prints I'm really happy with. Thank you!
Yes, definitely
Michael this is awesome , As someone thats been 3d printing for a couple of years now I still find this stuff useful.
Most useful and clearest bed leveling video I've yet seen. Thank you.
Question: I'm trying to go through your calibration site with my CR 6 SE and I don't know what to put on the "auto-bed leveling" section of the gcode generator because none of the options seem to be applicable. The CR 6 SE bed leveling is *exclusively* automatic and the starting gcode doesn't seem to have any of the calls that you have listed on that page. Maybe I'm not understanding something properly because I'm still so new to 3D printing, but I want to make sure I do this right. Please help.
Michael, I either get ridges or I don't have proper adhesion. This is driving me nuts, and I'm also running a BL touch with Jyers custom firmware for Ender 3 v2.
Another thing you can try is tweaking your flow rate for the first layer only in the slicer (most support it). Either nozzle further from the bed with more flow or vice versa. Don't forget to clean your bed surface too.
@@TeachingTech Thank you for the response, I have a question not related to this video but since you are the Guru of this I need your professional opinion. What setting is best to have accurate prints, flow rate or horizontal expansion? Im on an ender 3 v2.
Yeay! I'm so happy that I installed inductive sensors on my machines and even a piezo on one.. UBL and ABL are so great. I completely forgot how hard it can be for new players to get the first layers right. Good luck to all the new 3D-printing enthusiasts!
An ABL is a small price to pay for consistency. I prefer the EZABL to the BL Touch, speed and less damage.
bruh i was so pissed trying tp level the bed after getting a ender 3 pro and only being able to print 2 small things successfully in 3 days finally caved and bought a bl touch
To level the bed, I believe Creality tells us to home the hot end, then disable the stepper motors to move from corner to corner and raise or lower these as needed. Problem is, when I follow this procedure I can never get the bed level the first time. It was infuriating. Then, I read an article someone wrote on the net. He said to stop using disable stepper motors. So, to move from corner to corner, I had to use the Move command. Doing it this way, I was able to level my bed the first time around! My print is perfect.
Thank you for this! Helped a lot!
Didn't you do a video about manual mesh leveling? I've been using manual mesh for about a year and only occasionally think I should throw more money (buy/install abl) at the problem of my warpy bed.
Also, manual mesh bed leveling can correct for a warped bed, too.
This is what I use
@@dunlop64 how do you know which point in the mesh corresponds to its physical location on the bed?
@@irql2 not sure what you're asking tbh. With manual mesh bed leveling turned on, it's under the motion option on the printer itself to level the bed and the print head automatically moves from point to point, I believe you can set the number of points you level as well default is 9 (I think). I had a difficult time compiling the firmware and had someone from the btt skr Facebook group do it for me
@@dunlop64 yea I’m familiar with the leveling process but what I’m curious to know Is if I were to manually enter the offset for each point or element in the array, how would I know where on the bed that specific point is. Like I’d probe point 1 at the bottom right and the second one just a little to the left, etc etc. on my ender 5 plus I watched the firmware populate the mesh when it probed and it seemed there was no order to where it probed. I know there was, but I couldn’t find it. It was like it was probing random spots until it finished if that makes sense.
@@irql2 as you probe (without an abl system) you're setting the height with the printer like you would normally level it with paper except you're controlling the z height with the control knob and it's saving that height to the printer
Great info on tramming the bed! I ultimately broke down and bought an inexpensive set of feeler gauges (or a very expensive 0.10mm feeler gauge if we're going to be honest), and the test print came out so much better than any of my attempts using paper. I'm now printing an all in one test model, and the base is about 60cm square, but two diagonally opposing corners curl up slightly while the other two lay perfectly flat. The quality of the fill lines shows slight ridging on the initial layer, but nothing that makes me think the layer is printing too thin. Any ideas why this would be? The result is that those two corners end up rounded instead of sharp 90 degrees on each face.
When I print I always have the same corners that warp up. The other corners are fine. What could be the issue?
Distance (gap) between autohome position whan printer is heated and bed should be 0mm
Marlin G35, I've never had such a freakishly perfect bed.
Can you throw some more light on this g35 technique?
@@ananthpadfoot G35 is a "Tramming Assistant" code for Marlin firmware that helps level the bed using a probe, such as the BLTouch. marlinfw.org/docs/gcode/G035.html
@@ananthpadfoot marlinfw.org/docs/gcode/G035.html
You type g35 into a terminal, like in octoprint or just pronterface. It taps each of the corners and the center with the z-probe, it then tells you to turn the threads clockwise or counterclockwise, rinse and repeat for a fully level bed to x gantry with zero effort or skill. This gets it level, but then you just babystep it to the correct nozzle height in the center and you're golden all over the bed.
I noticed that you said to disable steppers in the video. I have had issues with bed leveling in the past with disabled steppers because the Z axis is also disabled. In some cases the gantry will fall back towards the tray as you push the extruder around the build tray.
I agree. With steppers disabled you can move the z and not even know it. But I think the idea here is to let new gamers move it by hand because when moving with code, if you aren't experienced you can slam the nozzle into the bed. Once you know what to look for in the code and make it yourself for your specific printer it makes the task so much easier and more accurate. The only issue now: I can't tell you how many times I've had my hand on a leveling wheel when the bed takes off after its ten seconds pause in one corner - with the bed motion the wheels comes out of my hand rotating - so much for that corner, lets go round again.
I CAN NOT get good squares on a Brand new Ender 5 Plus from Tiny Machines. I've done the bed leveling but when run the g code from the generator it starts too high. While adjusting the Z height, the filament is getting peeled up by the drag of the nozzle. No, its not too low, the bead of the filament is actually still very round, The more I press the nozzle down the bed the worse this gets. What is happening?? Bad Nozzle?? Bad Filament? I cleaned the bed too. I've had an incredibly frustrating time. Tiny Machines support has been curt and not very helpful.
i dont like disabling steppers for this, you may accidently move your Z while moving your X and Y.
i just use the movement menu and set my x and y to the different corners (x200/y200, x30/y200, x200/y30 and x30/y30 for an ender 3)
Timing couldn’t have been better! Got my first 3D printer yesterday and had no idea how to level the bed right. Really useful guide and gcode generator. Can you add some info on mesh bed leveling? It seems like a middle ground between manual and auto bed leveling
After going on your calibration site i have leveled the bed and calibrated the extruder and the slicer just one word to say AWESOME
I just got an Ender 3 S1 Pro and no matter how level the bed is and how perfect my 1st layer is the nozzle scraps the print after about 15 layers and I can’t figure out why? HELP PLEASE!
maybe (Hopefully) someone can answer this question. Can you add BLTouch to an Alfawise U20 Plus 3D printer??
my creality 10 was printing great before i changed the all steel nozzle and heater cartridge. now i get bad prints and first layers like in this pic. : i.imgur.com/MknrvPl.jpg
can you help?
Good evening. I am trying to manual level my bed and not use inductive sensor levelling. If you have any info, that would be wonderful. Hope you are well.
When I was trying to figure out my Z Offset, I was having trouble measuring the distance between the BL Touch probe and the printer nozzle.
So I used a pack of cards! it worked great!
I have an original Ender 3 but my menu on the printer doesn't match yours. This makes it very difficult for newbies like me to figure this out. Do I need to update the printer firmware? Also about ABL with a BL Touch, If the bed is warped, won't that make to finished product not square and skewed slightly?
So the bed *should* be warm. Flsun Q5 has the autolevel/home/adjust z0 in one sub-menu by default and it doesn't heat. This explains why I have to make the head nearly crash into the bed for the prints to stick right!
Good Morning, I just brought a 3d printer and I was able to level the bed but I have a problem of the print not sticking to the bed. losing my mind here. Can you help me please. it's a glass with something on the top of the glass bed.
Also How can I join the community. I will need alot of ideas here. Thank you !
Used this to get my bed leveled perfectly. I can print the test gcode and have perfect squares, great adhesion, and makes me happy. BUT...still a newb b/c as soon as I try to do anything else, it globs and doesn't stick to anything but itself and the nozzle :(
Hey so I have a Biqu b1 and I am not certain I have a warped bed, in fact I probably don't but I'll check anyway. My question to you is when you say warped bed, are you talking about the magnetic sheet, or the part the sheet is placed on?
This is one of your better videos. Thanks so much for putting the work into the content and production value!!! This one is very helpful👍🏻👊🏻
i have a printer with klipper, auto mesh generating
a pei surface and Brand new nozzle.. no matter how i set the z offset my prints wont stick, no matter how clean and how long i clean the surface they wont stick...
im out of ideas and close to throwing the stupid printer out the window...
mesh leveling is done with bed heated and nozzle heated, waiting for them to settle the temp
surface is cleaned multiple times with dishsoap, ipa and even acetone
whatever i do.. my prints begin to either not stick at all and just lift or curl up right behind the nozzle after laying it down...
adjusting z offset dosent do anything to this issue... either i get to close and almost scrape the surface, or i am obviously to far ...
first layer speed is 10mm/s
Could you use calipers to measure a single layer thickness and use that with the pitch of the leveling screws or the z offset with ABL to properly set your z height and first layer flow properly?
I've been messing with my 3d printer. It has ABL so i only need to adjust z offset, i've spent so much time trying to get a perfect textured first layer.
Has anyone had an issue where first layer is perfect but second layer onward the filament is overlapping and causing layer squish. Happens on my Ender 3 V2, can't find the cause and the settings are the same for all layers no adjustments to first layer.
Hello, Sorry I think I messed up :C now my printer just go to a corner and drops filament with out printing. Do you know how to fix it?
Automatically generated subtitles are generated from the Vietnamese language. How can I correct that error, and that they are generated from the English language?
I cannot, for the life of me, level my bed. I've been at this for an entire week without luck. Idk what i'm doing wrong and have noone to ask. I think I need someone experienced to come and show me what the fuck i'm doing.
That smile in the end was.... scary. Where are the 3d Printed skeletons in your closet!? :P
I get one end of it dialed in like it shows here, but then I attempt to move the nozzle to level another corner and it starts scratching across the build plate as I try to move it into position. I know scratches are bad...What I am I doing wrong?
Finally someone actually explaining how to assess the correct amount of squish.😊
Thank you so much, I just couldnt level my bed correctly for the life of me
I do this so often I have just two physical buttons for printing leveling. I hate bl touch.
Make sure your not eating Cheetos and trying to get your first layer to stick like I did. Hahaha😂😂😂
the gcode that was generated made my printer's nozzle ram into the bed on the side, permanently leaving a gash in the magnetic surface :')
Any suggestions for a bed that has 39 leveling points -_- should I always start in the middle
The best bed levelling video! Thanks 🙏🏻
Thanks for the Micheal. I just got rid of my E5 magnetic bed and installed a spring steel bed. The challenge is now to get the prints to stick to the bed. I will get some glue sticks and try that. Thank you for the great helpful videos...
6:50 - One of the joys of a Hypercube style printer is that the bed only moves up and down, so you can live tune it with ease :-D
Genial amigo gracias por compartir , saludos desde Colombia
sweet holly mamma)
Acronyms... did you say wipe it down with IPA? I drink my beer, not wipe a bed with it!
DO NOT USE THIS GCODE PRINT ON AN ENDER 3 PRO STOCK BUILD PLATE. IT WILL DESTROY IT VERY BAD TO ADVISE THIS AS A BEGINNER VIDEO! LOST A TON OF RESPECT FOR THIS GUY FROM THIS ONE VIDEO I CAN NOT STRESS ENOUGH!
I use a mirror for my bed and even better than alcohol is acetone. It dries fast and gets everything off that alcohol can't.
Off topic but maybe someone can help. I have a SnapMaker Original first printer, I now have a Prusa MK3s I want to add another printer but want a larger build surface and do not want to spend more than 800 to 1000 usd. I was looking at a core xy style printer but unsure. I really would like auto bed levelling, power resume after a failure and filament sensor. Also something I could use prusa slicer. What suggestions would you have.
Where should you set the Springs before you start once a bed is way out of alignment?
First layer adhesion and the different types of print beds and how to make your print stick onto the different surfaces just right, might be useful too. I'm doing 3D printing for almost 3 years now, and i still struggle with first layer adhesion, elephant footing and warping on some prints.
ruclips.net/video/Ze36SX1xzOE/видео.html
NO! And also can we please start calling it what it is?
what about make 1h video about something can be explain in 3
Can you do a video on not using infill and the impacts.
I am thinking of trying 0 infill on my prints.
to begin with... there is no such thing as bed leveling.
Where can I find that flat print that covers the whole print bed?
You can make your own in Tinkercad in a couple of minutes.
Not sure if anyone will see this, but after using the web-site and printing for a while, my printer just kept messing up. I tried speeds, zhop, leveling... finally I took an actual level to my printer, X,Y,Z all level as can be... then I went to the gantry carrying the print head.... X was level... Y was completely off... a little exaxurated but the hotend looked like this / instead of | to print straight down.
I knew my bed was level because I was getting the correct first layer heights on two sides of the squares, but then each square was off by the same... on each side... So now I'm looking at troubleshooting how to fix that.. I looked at the wheels at it looks like they might be worn out on one of them because to fix the angle issue, you need to bring the top of the gantry towards you on my Ender 5.... ugh... Anyway just wanted to say I love the channel and the website!
Awesome video and thank you a billion times. Ironically the mid of my bed has like a bump so I used Z offset plugin on Cura. But yeah I think now that a ABL would be benefical for accurate first layers in my case. But When I see the price tag then I just think I´ll wait ^^.
Can you make a video comparing some Auto Bed Leveling sensors ?? like a cheap, a mid tier and a high tier one ?
This system worked great. I’ve been struggling with first layer issues since I added the Bullseye shroud. So going back to the basic solved my Z-offset problem.
Thanks for the great work and keep it up.
Where can we find this wonderful auto bed leveling gadget?
Sad that this video is with "vietnamese subtitles" and no english version
Omg i having this problem rn but this should help
I have a question about when ABL data is stored. I compiled my own Marlin firmware. If I run the ABL command through the LCD screen (not through GCode), is this saved to EEPROM? Main reason I ask is because I have some GCode that are already sliced and locked for editing and so I cannot add to the code to run ABL prior to printing. If I were to manually run the ABL through the LCD then start my print, would the leveling data be used? Thanks.
This has programming and stuff in it again. This is not for beginners.
The automatic bed leveling thing would definitely be nice to have as well, hopefully it doesn't set me back too much..6.6
Next time, bed leveling with Marlin points...
Do you mean "Level bed corners"? ruclips.net/video/1fuw2NaTWu8/видео.html
@@Zemistr3D No, Mesh bed leveling with Marlin, is the best way to fix warp bed with out change the bed system
@@rapalma38 Ah, understand. :)
ruclips.net/video/-iWVozGMy6w/видео.html
ruclips.net/video/qvpNsBuf0b8/видео.html
Desativou a legenda para português ☹️
i hate the paper trick one says little friction others say lots of friction smh
Is anyone else having difficulty getting this tool to work? For me, every G1 command uses `XNaN` and `YNaN` for the position parameters, so the nozzle never actually moves and it just dispenses filament in the "home" position. @TeachingTech
Any info on adding ABL to the Ender 3 V2?
I’ve ordered 2 silent driver boards 1.1.5 for my 3 pro and 5 and received the V4.2.7 board that comes in the V2. After some digging it seams that Creality is no longer shipping the 8 bit silent driver boards anymore.
After disable steppers, z axis should be activated, since some printers or beginners might/will move Z axis sligtly during osme of cycles and wont get same result. Printers with heavy X gantry will suffer from this, example Formbot trex. I know multiple peoplw who have boight similar machines as first one to learn on.
Hello! 2 Questions: Newbie here! 1.Can you print multiple 3d projects at one time, is it wise, is it feasible? For instance, if I have a numbers set 0-9 and they are not connected, can I print them at one go? 2. Is it okay to have the Ender 3 Pro sitting in a cabinet right next to another Ender 3 Pro (within a few inches from the other) ? I didn't know if there would be any sort of friction that would harm the other printer. Many thanks!
suggest on gcode generator put in code to print a line on left like cura does
Getting the bed level with the nozzle plane was the biggest hurdle for me and it was so frustrating and infuriating that I was almost ready to throw my new Ender 3 Pro out the window when I bought it. Luckily I found out about EZABL and ordered one. Set it all up and it works perfect every single print. Only time an adjustment is needed now is when I change print resolution, then I have to change the Z offset to compensate.
I have a BL Touch. It seems like my bed is warp since printing a line the middle part is to thin (almost transparent) while the "edge" of the line is perfect. Funny thing is I have a glass bed. Any ideas? (wish I could upload a pic)