I feel like GURPS is a fantastic system in sub-optimal packaging. There's a certain point at which the system just clicks and you start to "see the code", but getting there can be a struggle. For me, it was playing a 25/-15 point adventure with zero preparation. For one of my players, it was when I handed him a gun. I feel like it's different for everyone, but right now the only way to reach that point is to play the game.
Man, you should send this to SJG right away. Best analysis of the flaws of GURPS I have ever seen. Also, crazy that it has been so long since 4e came out! Finally, just so you know OSR GURPS already exists, it is called The Fantasy Trip.
GURPS 4e needs a Lite version that is complete and as robust as the one 3e had. The 3e lite version had literally enough of the game that you could run a great game with it.
As someone who started out thinking we didn't need a new edition, I think you make some very good points. However, I think to make this worth while the solution is mostly a reformat of the existing rules. Similar to what 4th Ed did separating combat and tactical combat into two separate chapters SJG could do this with a new book with simple and complex (physics) rule-sets. As you put it the follow-up books and PDFs certainly have some improvements. The challenge here, of course, is that everyone has a different line of where to slice that up, but that would be an SJG decision. The second thing I think we need is to accept that the two core 4th ed books are essentially the Game Master's Guides. They are not digestible by most newer players. This is one of the barriers to getting new players. Steve Jackson games should start putting out genre specific Player's Handbooks. IMHO, this could be a limited run of 16-ish hard-bound books: Cavemen, Empires, Middle Age/Renaissance, Fantasy/Magic, Pirates, Martial Arts/Wuxia, Revolutions/Civil War, Wild West, Victorian/Occult, Roaring 20s/Gangster/Pulp, World Wars/Pulp, Spy/Cold War, Cyberpunk, Apocalypse, Space with the add of a Supers/Psi. These would all be focused on empowering the players and have the races, templates, specific skills and techniques and a whole host of TL specific equipment (which could be consolidated into one PDF). You've convinced me.
Yes! I agree with you on this. A reformat of the rules would go a long way. I actually LIKE a lot of crazy options within GURPS, but most of it should be tucked away in a GM's Guide. GURPS Lite *almost* solves the problem, except it's too terse, too dry, and actually missing some key rules you need for many genres. I also miss the 3rd edition approach of genre books that helped players and GM's focus their campaigns.
@@1ShotJC Hmm... I wouldn't go insofar as saying that it should be tucked in a GM's guide (assuming something like a second basic book like Campaigns)... Because GMs need a lot of help with GURPS too. They certainly don't need to be overwhelmed with rules either. The main books need to teach the players how to play the game and be extremely well organized, because they're also reference manuals. Putting too many rules in it will make it harder to find that one thing that you need to know in the middle of a game session.
IMO GURPS realism was born out of the obsession with the mid to late 80's push for RPG's to be more real. It was one of the selling points of Runequest and I believe a big reason why DnD second addition expanded skills and classes, it was the reason I switched to the system. The negatives for me, are the long combat sequences, the prep time as a GM. You make some very good points about why a 5th edition would be great.
If you only read one thing in my post is should be this: I don't think you can streamline character creation and keep the customization that makes GURPS special. It was the system my group played for years and it almost never took me less than an afternoon to create more than a basic NPC even with programs like GCA. 1. GURPS didn't go from using one book in 3e to using two bigger books in 4e. It went from using shelf's worth of books in 3e to a few books in 4th. Including every advantage/disadvantage/skill even the niche ones was very much a continuation of the concept of the compendium books from the end of 3e. I can remember creating a character for a fantasy game and using the basic book, fantasy folk, magic, grimoire, martial arts, fantasy, china, japan, rome, arabian nights, and low tech to be sure I had just the right mix of stuff to spend points on. 2. Maybe it was the GMs I played with but my group never used the most simulationist rules because they as you point out slow down play to much. However simulation has always been the hallmark of GURPS and including a simple and a complex set of rules for situations makes the rule set longer. 3. 360 degree vision is first because the advantages are listed alphabetically which does make it easier to find the text for a specific listing later. Also if you have to read the whole entry for 360 degree vision to figure out if fits your character I don't know what to tell you because it's exactly what it says on the tin. However this does go back to point number two because this particular advantage doesn't matter if your game doesn't use field of vision arcs. Still 3. I can remember when reputation, appearance, and status were in sections before the rest of the advantages and having to flip to a different section to find them reduced my tendency to use them either as advantages or disadvantages. More 3. Yeah there have been some pretty useless skills (Filch, Starglazing, Uttering of the Base Coin) but there are almost never enough points to spend on every skill that is potentially useful: this is the curse of customization. 4. Yep, nope, totally. 5. More than anything else and for this reason alone should there be a fifth edition.
Thanks Jonathan Frank, completely agree with you. The only argument I could get behind was the improved production values; all of the other points fall apart upon consideration.
I quite disagree, actually. One of the reasons it has taken me a LONG time to migrate from 3rd edition to 4th edition is that the 4th edition rules, while really not very different from 3rd, are significantly harder to work with. Having all those extra advantages and skills in a separate book was a GOOD thing. Having powers largely separate was a GOOD thing. And the 3rd edition skill layout, with a number of categories and the skills alphabetical within that, was for practical purposes much more manageable than the full alphabetical layout in 4th. When I'm putting together a character, whether as a player or doing a significant NPC (Mooks obviously don't get anything like the full treatment), I tend to work with the categories a lot. So if I have a thief-y or espionage oriented character, sure, they won't have ALL the thief/spy skills, but I can look fairly quickly through what's on offer and grab the ones that are relevant. If I have a somewhat "ranger-ish" type, a quick look at the Outdoor skills grabs me my core stuff easy peasy. Same same with combat skills and so on. But in 4th, to try to figure out what the key skills for my concept are requires that I look through all hundred pages or whatever of the skill list, flip back and forth, forget some of them, look again . . . it's a pain. Even with a .pdf version where I can do searches, it's still a pain because the point is I can't search for something I don't remember I need. Going back to the 3rd edition skill layout would help a lot. It's not quite as big a deal with advantages/disadvantages but still might help. Side note: Starglazing is great! In a medieval style campaign that isn't that dungeon-oriented you can use it a lot, actually. If you want to get into somewhere, in my campaigns the windows are shuttered and barred or may well not be designed to open at all. There's certainly no lock to pick on the outside. With Starglazing you can quietly disassemble a lot of barriers whose owners were not stupid enough to put a lock somewhere you could pick. You don't have to be that amazing at it because while there are plenty of locks made to be hard to pick, there's basically no such thing as a barrier designed to be hard to starglaze. I suspect with a bit of creativity you could actually use modernized Starglazing really well in a cyberpunk campaign. "So the door opens with a keycard that we can't duplicate, it sends an alarm if tampered with, and you say we're hooped? Hrm, if I disassemble the door frame, and then expose these wires (snip) . . ."
@@purplelibraryguy8729 I completely agree with you on the skills being broken up by category being very useful for finding the skills you needed when creating a character but it is much less useful when reading your sheet and trying to figure out what a skill did especially if it was in multiple categories because then entries would tell you to go to a different section. Also appearance was listed in the social advantages but it told you to go to a different page to figure out how much each level cost and what the rules were for it which made it more difficult to tell when an advantage was actually useful for a character concept. I completely disagree with there not being barriers that are hard to starglaze. All you have to do is have the door jamb protect the latch and put the hinges on the inside of the door and then you have to be serious enough to go through wall to get in and really that's just a series of damage rolls no real skill needed. And for that they make door frames that extend further into the wall. If you're getting into snipping wires I'd say that's also covered by the more broadly useful electronics repair(Security) skill or if you're being generous lockpicking at the appropriate TL. I was incorrect when I said that skills like starglazing are useless because in their niche they are very useful it's just their niche tends to be covered by a different skill in the game and so is better represented by the techniques option just like kicking is a niche covered by brawling and karate (Also DX).
@@jonathanfrank1812 Good point about it being possible to foil Starglazing, I hadn't been thinking about that sort of defensive measure. But if you're in a medieval-type campaign even a decent skill will be dashed effective at getting you into most normal buildings. You can certainly just say other skills, or techniques from them, give you that capability; what skill is what is always a matter of how you define it. Comes down to which way you think feels cooler in play, I suppose. I kind of LIKE Starglazing existing as a skill, and I think I've even had a character or two who had it but did not know how to pick actual locks. (I agree on Filch though, and Uttering Base Coin is one of those skills that exist almost entirely because probably there are some NPCs who should have it, not because anyone is ever going to use it. IMO if your character has time to be making fake gold pieces, they should be stealing some real ones instead--much more fun) As to the organization of the rules--in a hypothetical 5th edition I do agree appearance and such should stay rolled into advantages properly instead of having that odd separation like they were supposed to be a different concept. But I would definitely prefer to have skills grouped. Especially now that I'm usually using the .pdf version day to day, so if I know what skill I'm looking for 'cause it's already on my character sheet, it's a quick search even if it shows up on a couple different pages.
I think the absolute most important thing that would make a 5th edition worth it - and it would honestly require changing almost none of the systems or rules - is if they made an actually good core rulebook that threw out all the simulationist gunk into its own separate companion, focused on designing a startup guide that even a noob GM could handle, streamline/better arrange how the rules are presented so it flows logically, and just publish that. Because at its core, GURPS is NOT complicated, and could be run even by people who'd struggle with D&D - ASSUMING - they actually understand what the rules are saying, which the current core books are terrible at conveying imo
I still vividly remember running GURPS at Paizocon for Pathfinder players who told me GURPS felt sooo much simpler than what they were used to. So yes!
Part of it feeling simpler is that "simulationist gunk" though. The rules create intuitive results. I agree with simplifying the core book. However, I feel that the grounding in some semblance of reality and intuitive results should remain the starting point from which the rest of the system is constructed.
@@johnnydibert6212 full agree, physics is great for everything, except falling, seriously, I was not ready to do that much maths to get a result that's still going to be randomized by D6s anyway. 99% of games take place with earth gravity, or not giving enough of a fig newton to change it, so just let the damage be set off something super simple, 1d6 per second of falling is close enough.
1. Reorganization a) Get rid of the two column format b) But please KEEP the good table of contents and index (don't take one step forward and two back). Keep this great thing about GURPS 2. Modularization 3. Simplification (especially with lower point cost characters) a) Less math b) Give options to streamline things and keep the game running faster 4. Ranged combat reorg -- See modularization and simplification above a) Action genre version has simplified Ranged combat, that needs to be in the main system as a generic option (he pointed this out in the video) b) Better examples on ranged combat since it's the thing that most beginners have issues with 5. Re-evaluate names and costs a) Example - Honesty vs Truthfulness -- why isn't Honesty renamed Law-Abiding? 6. Great full color art -- Art sells. (he makes a good point about GURPS artwork).
The learning curve plays a crucial role in the player experience, and this is where we see a marked distinction between Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) and GURPS.
I think that you make a lot of good points. I'd also like to see the game be scaled back to a human baseline. The current orthodoxy of the "rule of cool" has pushed default point values higher and higher until now 250-350 point characters are seen as the normal starting level in nearly every genre dive they make anymore (even After the End recommends 250 point templates). The more points, the more character to keep track of, to put together in the first place, and the more they get in the way of the game. Dai Blackthorn in earlier editions was a nice, simple, heroic adventurer. Now he's a world-jumping sci-fi superhero whose character sheet has a lot on it to wade through. And his companions are just crazy.
I'd snatch up a GURPS 5th ed Hardcover in a heartbeat. I am that rare guy that loves to read the rules, and I have collected all the editions - the so the density of 4th ed doesn't bother me. But a re-organized approach and format would be nice. Someone here mentioned doing simpler genre books for ease of entry. I like that...KEEP 4th ed as the encyclopedia for serious GM's. BUT introduce a new line of easy entry "books" for players and beginning GMs for each main genre.Include in each a hold-the-hand- character creation and solo story like Mentzer's Red Box. The success there was, "just get them rolling dice and into the game, and the rest will come". 3rd ed had All in A Night's Work and it was successful, but this new line would take it a step further. Each book having the common & Genre skills, a GM area, and a bestiary, solo adventure. Dungeon Fantasy, powered by GURPS seems to juuuust miss the mark. And the 250 pt characters erase the point of a intro, genre-specific box-set. And, if a group or player is into fantasy, just introduce them to The Fantasy Trip. It's faster anyway and already genre-specific. In fact, I appreciate SJG brought TFT back exactly as it was as far as the rules set and format. But I'd like to see it updated with a new format. New Hardcover. resolving some inconsistencies. To make it even simpler, you could just introduce them to a programmed adventure over at Dark City Games. They have a simplified rules set that is pretty fun.
I played GURPS first edition, along with AD & D, Marvel Super Heroes, and FASA Star Trek RPGs. I started GURPS 4th Edition, so I could play/run games from Fantasy, to Super Hero, to post apocalyptic, to futuristic. Except for character creation, the base GURPS rules are pretty simple. Adding all optional rules can make it complex and realistic. Supplements can be expensive, but the added rules and clarifications can help when you're having difficulty adapting base rules to what you want to run. I'm not sure how all issues that might be present in 4th edition can get solved with a new edition, but some things you pointed out might get solved with a new edition.
So I have a love-hate relationship with GURPS, and you summarize well where some of the hate comes from here :-D I started reading Man-to-Man recently and had fun making characters and getting into combats after just 30 pages of reading. I think a new GURPS 5e should take this approach too - something better than GURPS Lite which invites players into the game and gets them on their feet and playing quickly. I love your one shots by the way and am amazed how many you've produced since we were last in touch (I was automating Dragon's Demise on Foundry, and you were helping me with that).
It is worth remembering that _GURPS_ started out as 'unversal-by extension'. That is basic set was nothing but medieval adventuring without magic, and everything else would come from sourcebooks. Many of the changes over the succeeding three editions were integrating everything that fell out of adding in the rest. The problem with the main proposal is of course is how to go back to something like that without splitting everything up. I'd think you'd still want one complete reference for the more ambitious GMs/groups. Something like a line of focused starter kits akin to the genre kit line (Action, DF, ATE, etc). If that would _sell_ is another question. The closest we've got is _DF_ itself, and I have know idea how well it really did. I understand why they wanted to tweak things for that to be the best independent product it could be, but at the same time I think lining up with _GURPS_ would have been better for the line. Better art would be a big plus, it's been a downhill slide since the beginning of the 90s. Layout and writing is fine for me (I find reading through the Advantages chapter nicely inspriational). Templates are unreadable messes of text however. Something _really_ needs to be done there.
Agree. As others have pointed out, 3E blossomed into several core books over time. But part of me thinks this is just how RPGs inevitably evolve over time, and trying to avoid it might be a fools errand. Even 4th edition has supplements with options that I use all the time, that I would love to see incorporated into the main rules.
@@1ShotJC At the very tippy top of my wishlist is "incorporate complementary skills into the heart of the system and rework all 'roll vs skill #1, if you succeed, your skill #2 roll gets a bonus'-type mechanics to be complementary skills instead." That's the big thing that bothers me about 4e. There are so many mechanics that do the same basic thing, but use slightly different rules for it. That's a waste of design space, a waste of space inside the book, and a waste of space inside my head.
@@MADMACHlNE Right? Just give the character a bonus on a roll with skill #2 if skill #1 is above a certain level (being consistent throughout all applicable skills).
@@allluckyseven Complementary Skills are a bit more complicated than that since the mechanic inherently involves multiple rolls, but they're great because they can represent so many different things. You can complement your own skills: - Naturalist to complement Diagnosis rolls to identify venoms by their effects - Savoir-Faire (In-Group) to complement Acting rolls to impersonate a member of (In-Group). - Running to complement Jumping to make a running jump. Or you can complement other people's skills: - To distract a guard by showing some leg, roll Sex Appeal to complement your ally's Stealth. - To provide instrumental accompaniment, roll Musical Instrument to complement the vocalist's Singing. - To participate in a magic act as a confederate, roll Acting to complement the magician's Sleight-of-Hand. It works really well, and it works for a huge variety different things without feeling bland or samey-it's an ideal rule for a generic toolkit system. My hope is that 5e promotes this rule to the level of a core mechanic, right up there with things like Quick Contests.
@@MADMACHlNE Oh, you meant the opposite of what I thought you did! Sorry, English is my second language. Well, I don't know, I think it would make GURPS much faster if they just gave you a flat bonus based on your Skill Level. Like, you don't (or shouldn't) test your skills all the time. And I think that that should be applied to complementary skills as well as to help other characters, depending on the situation. You might still have roll in situations like those that you pointed out to complement another character's actions, because you're acting together but doing different things, you're not just telling them what to do. It makes sense, so I'm on the fence about that. Thanks for the thorough post, I appreciate that.
I'm with most points here, but I have a few: A. Don't cut back the realism, just make it simpler. The best simulation games are the ones where you can still know what you're doing. Hay, two of my favorite games: ArmA and Rimworld, despite being two different type of games are both designed to be realistic but I can still take action even if I've never encounter the mechanic before. B. Remove the perks and I'd say make the advantages, disadvantages, and quirks work much like it did for 3rd. As A. quirks were bonus points for caring about not making a blank cardboard character, and tons of advantages were expensive while a ton of disadvantages gave back points but you had to rollplay it or face the GM making you face consequences for it. It made it a little more tactical on what you chose, especially when there's a type of character you want to play but can't afford it easily. C. Make better racial/non-human characters, 3rd its easy but felt limiting because it cost points just to have that race, and one freind had this quote when I was struggling and ask for help how to make a pokemon survival theme adventure work: "What the difference between putting 30 points into STR -- and having 40 points put into STR for you, then cutting back by 10 anyway?" I know 4th tried to remove some issues that existed in 3rd to prevent them from being too powerful, according to their guide how to update characters at least, but instead made it pointless to play anything but a human (or at least from my testing). I'm saying this a year later because I didn't know about this, and as a someone from genZ that started with 3rd and tried multiple times to play 4th, multiple times, but those 3 issues kept coming back and made it not fun to make an adventure, might as well voice them so maybe someone else can too. I want to run a 4th edition game just to add more feed back and be able to have a more professional keen eye where I can put what I like vs. what might work for other people. To simplify why I like the system over D&D and many others, there are two reasons, actually 2.5 and the first one is in the 3rd edition book itself: "You can take your [medieval fantasy] Wizard, and put him on the beaches of Normandy in World War 2 with zero needing to worry switching to a different rule set." And I can do that with a customizable amount of realism, allowing me to simulate that experience as detailed or as fantastic as I like. And the .5 reason is something Zee Bashew said "Why not use a different system, well I want a certain experience for just a few sessions its easier to just jury rig something in a familiar system then to spend time finding a new one." To me GURPS was by design able to be jury-rigged into whatever experience you need, making it so easy to add what I need and it to still function. We had my brutal pokemon survival I mentioned earlier, but I also easily hodge together a town builder manager game with the ability to have a randomly generated history straight up by using the same concepts from the character sheet, so players already knew what everything kinda did and could work the adventure from that.
I can't help but agree with you, although I do think you give the character templates a hard time. They're genre specific, after all, and they undoubtedly speed up character creation. FWIW I think the real game changers for GURPS (out of the issues you mentioned) would be a conversational writing style and a narrative control mechanism.
GURPS is really simple. It just has /lots/ of extras. Prep times: really short, mostly getting names and working out personalities and working out at least one plot twist. My fantasy game's been going since 1992, lots of fun.
My biggest pet peeve is the way character blocks are presented as a big blob o' text. Sacrifice some page space for readability, please! I agree with all your points except when it comes to templates. While I agree that they shouldn't be too restricting, I also believe that they're necessary to "set the bar," so to speak, for the setting they're being used for. I mean, creativity is one thing, but do you really want that wild west character taking 360 degree vision?
The blocks definitely feel like Excel exports... would love to see them go through a serious usability pass! I'm still mixed on templates. I like that they simplify, but don't like that they still can overwhelm. E.g. the Thief template in Dungeon Fantasy has you pick from among 20 advantages, 16 disadvantages, and 18 skills, which is still a lot (compare to the same rogue in 5E where you pick from not much of anything until 3rd level). I like that templates let players easily create archetypes, but don't like that in creating archetypes, GURPS loses some of its magic of being able to create truly unique characters you can't get in other games - you'll likely never get a Tyrion Lannister, but will get lots of Jaime Lannisters with templates, lol. Definitely not against them by any means though.
You captured almost everything I feel. I love GURPS, but between the elements you mentioned and the lack of completed animals, bandits and monsters it was unapproachable. I wasted a lot of money and the players dumped it after 4 sessions with a "never going back" comment.
I agree with you so much on your first point. GURPS desperately needs a more condensed version. We don't need ALL of those rules inside of a _Basic Set..._ SJG should leave that for supplements. I mean, most people I know already consider Martial Arts an indispensable supplement. Why not treat supers and other more exotic stuff like that too? Let the Basic set be just that. Basic. The essentials of the system. (someone could argue that that's what GURPS Lite is for, but no, Lite is just _too_ basic... no pun intended.) On your second point, yes, that too. Make it a supplement with more crunch for people who want that. On point 3, I also agree. Actually I think that skills in general should be broader, kind of like Wildcard Skills. But I don't see that changing. That could alienate the player base too much. But yeah, in general the book should guide you through character creation, making it much easier. 3rd Edition had the Instant Characters booklet, which helped a lot...but that book also had way fewer skills and ads/disads. And speaking of those, ads/disads and skills could be less verbose. Not having to read a ton of text just to know how a certain characteristic works in the game would make character creation much faster. EDIT: IMO Skills, Ads and Disads could be grouped again like they were in previous editions BUT they should be preceded by an list in alphabetical order. On point 4, yeah, I don't have to say anything on that. But I will anyway. :P GURPS (as we all know...) never had great looking books. Even the better ones (like Dungeon Fantasy) don't look that good. And this is not just about art, it's about layout and graphic design. I complained a lot about this many years ago in the sjgames forums, but they seemed clueless. Maybe now if they've seen what Free League has been putting out. They really need to up their game. Point #5: ABSOLUTELY YES. Perhaps they should try and make it kind of like the GURPS "for dummies" book. BTW I was a 2nd-3rd edition player and I _was_ overwhelmed when I got the 4th edition books.
Ahh... I loved GURPS 3rd. Bought 4th and found I couldn't concentrate on GMing because I was always in the rule book. idk why I didn't just go back to 3rd, but I searched for a long time for a fast universal system and landed on Savage Worlds (and also, I like using all the polyhedral dice). I like your GURPS 5th generation vision a lot.
Are there any news/rumors about a 5th edition? As @MrAndrewGil mentioned in his post, of all GURPS needs a rewriting and restructuring to make rules clearer. Maybe with more examples, like creating new advantages/powers out of the existing, etc. And to collect all those myriad of options from the countless pdfs to have a better overview. Oh, and since starter sets are en vogue, that wouldn't hurt either. Take W.O.I.N. as example, they have one starter box coming with one fantasy adventure, one modern and one sci-fi adventure each. So one for each taste.
I haven't heard anything new since SJGames asked the question about what fans are looking for in a 5th edition a few months ago. Maybe they'll surprise us at Gencon! Love the idea of a starter set too.
@@1ShotJC I cross my fingers, I'd love to convince my group of GURPS but when they took a look at the character creation they declined, wishing for WOIN as a more accessible mini GURPS instead. And I can't blame them WOIN is a fine generic system, Nonetheless my heart truly beats for GURPS and there is still hope till Gencon. I wished SJG would at least try Kickstarter for such an endeavor to minimize losses, should the demand for a new GURPS shouldn't be as high as we hope.
I don't really think it needs a new edition, but I agree it would benefit from a new entry book. Something between lite and the core books with some of the simplified rules from new supplements.
A lot of the problems you mention here are not GURPS ruleset problems, they are GURPS-as-a-product problems. This is a challenging issue to navigate because you don't want to change the core values of the brand while you're at it. I think the current approach of the 2004 core books is to present themselves like an encyclopedia. This has the (alleged) benefits of making them better at being reference materials, but makes them patently worse at conveying the toolkit nature of GURPS... not an RPG system, but an RPG system *construction kit* based on the premise you should not only choose *which* rules you will use in the first place, but *which version* of the same rules you will use (to which the range table example illustrates.) Furthermore, the writing style of GURPS has a dense workmanlike quality that, at least for me, makes it a difficult even morose read. I find myself really surprised that HERO System (which shares some of the same problems as GURPS and clocks at a whopping 750+ pages on their current core books) makes for a much snappier reading experience. So yes, please make a 5th edition and address (at the very least) those issues!
I think I agree with just about everything you said here. A streamlined version of GURPS would be nice to see. My only note is that a new edition should be accompanied by a big marketing push that shows how simple the game is at its core. GURPS overly technical reputation scares away so many people who would love the game if they ever gave it a chance.
What I'd want for GURPS 5e: 1) Go back to two-column pages. 2) Incorporate character goals and beliefs into providing extra CP at the end of the session (kind of like Torchbearer). 3) Simplify modifiers. Compared to its most direct competitor, HERO, the modifiers are often huge and penalties often really screw over anyone with lower than a 14- skill level. 3a) This would probably be a good place to insert Roll & Keep-style modifiers, which actually works better with 3d6 than with 1d20 (small mod is 4d6 roll, big mod is 5d6 roll, huge mod is 6d6 roll). For overall bonus, roll & keep the highest 3 dice. For overall penalty, roll & keep the lowest 3 dice. 4) Shrink that gargantuan skill list. Ideally, use the same skill list as, say, Mutants & Masterminds 2e (which had around 40 or so skills, especially when you take into account the various Knowledge skills). Any more fine-tuning should be a bonus to a specific use of a skill (i.e. a specialty). 5) Change the formula for calculating carrying capacity from ST^2 to doubling every 5 points of ST from a base of 10. Like that, super-strong characters don't need to put as many points into ST or Lifting ST in order to lift massive amounts of weight. 6) Change the 1-second rounds to 3-second rounds. 1-second rounds are way too pedantic, even if it does simulate more simultaneous movement. 3-second rounds also eliminate the need for pedantic minutiae such as incorporating turning around in place as part of movement. 7) Incorporate more abstract units of positioning (i.e. engaged, a couple of steps, nearby, etc.), either as the default or as a modular component (preferably as a default) so as to make GURPS more friendly to pure Theatre of the Mind play. 8) A different method of incorporating more roleplay-oriented disadvantages rather than as a way to gain more character points. Perhaps something akin to new World of Darkness, where incorporating one is voluntary and provides a CP reward when used to complicate the character's life in a meaningful way. 9) An alternate skill advancement system where skill level increases after a certain number of meaningful applications (similar to Basic Roleplaying) instead of simply investing CP into them post-character creation. Something similar could work for other advantages or stats that function similar to skills. I can go on and on, and this list is just stuff off the top of my head, as I don't currently have the 4e core rulebooks on hand.
Normally I don't like to go "why not game x instead", but a lot of your arguments (that I do agree with fully) seems to point to a game like Savage Worlds with its solid fairly incomplex core that can be expanded as you see fit.
I like Savage Worlds, but I find it harder to pull off some of the grittier game genres I like to play. Also find it harder to teach for some reason, but maybe it's because I'm not a veteran of the system.
@@1ShotJC I don't like Savage Worlds, it translates to exactly one kind of game regardless of the genre. You can't scaffold stories about politics or family drama, or commercial adventure with the rules. You can barely do exploration in it. It's pretty much just for puns and combat and even then your abilities are so swingy there's little sense of what your character's capabilities are. But it is the end product you're describing.
When I returned to TTRPGs I wanted to change the system I used (from WoD) so I started to read book after book, system after system! I even spent three months on GURPS to learn it just before switching to Savage Worlds. It can do most of the things GURPS does and is more streamlined. Needless to say it became my main system to GM.
@@1ShotJC SWADE has some options for gritty gameplay, these options are listed in a section called Setting Rules. The option Gritty Damage turns wounds into serious issues. A detective might suffer through whole session because of a grazed bullet. Moreover, these rules can also skew the game on the other direction. Depending on the genre you would like to emulate.
Great video, I wasn't sure how I felt about a 5th edition cause I just got a bunch of 4th edition books from the humble bundles, but yeah they do feel too intimidating to read sometimes. Also definitely subscribing for the Wrath of Khan cosplay alone.
I picked up some of the 4th edition books in the past couple years, after not having explored GURPS since the original 3rd edition long ago. I initially bounced off the 4e core books. Yet after watching some vids about it, and realizing the best thing to do is start with the basics & worry about the rest when I feel like it or need to, it suddenly became easy. The basic rules are no biggie compared to many others I've learned. The vast majority of it is reference and character options which don't need to be memorized up front. Thankfully the 4e core books' layout is quite helpful for referencing. I think these points are the primary thing to know before starting; you only need to know the basics to start. So don't panic. 😄
While I agree with some of the opinions, it is the responsibility of the GM to restrict the options, and/or provide the basic required skills during character creation. Especially for one-shots.
It is. But other systems do the work for the GM, while GURPS requires A LOT of work form the GM before the game starts. If the goal is to increase the popularity of GURPS, it needs to attract GMs who don't want to do so much work.
Apologies for the threadnomancy, but this just appeared in my feed, and I was not aware of your channel until now. First, have a sub. Second, in my opinion, SJG won’t release a new edition of GURPS until they want to chase the “best ever RPG” crown, and make a serious attempt to dethrone D&D as the “go to” rpg. The current system must still be popular, as it still sells - heck, I still buy 4th edition GURPS stuff from e23, to this day. One of the things I do love about GURPS is the realism. It makes it so easy to convert other systems’ adventures, because of this. But I do agree that the basic rules need to be streamlined, to make it more accessible, and easier for new players to get into. Personally, I love the crunch of GURPS. But I think simpler mechanics in the core rules, and moving all the “rocket science” to either a supplement at the back of the rules, or as an optional, highly recommended, expansion, would go a long way to making the system more attractive to new players. Regarding the Advantages, Disadvantages, etc, I want them all in one place, so I don’t need to have multiple books open when creating characters. Perhaps a new edition should consist of a free, “rules-lite” version, such as already exists, but focuses on character creation, and core mechanics, to explain the system and how it works, along with a short solo adventure, to demonstrate said mechanics, attributes, skills, and advantages. The main rules have expedited versions of the more complicated rules, with “recommended” crunchier rules in a chapter towards the end of the book. GMs can choose what better suits their group, and use them, accordingly. That’s enough rambling for now. Cheers,
I think that the MOST helpful tool for a GURPS adventure is going through the skill list and selecting the 20-60 skills and the advantages that are relevant to the campaign. All skills checks will default to one of these - and some skills could be grouped (have science instead of the individual fields, for example).
I don't think I've read or played anything post 2nd Ed., and even at that point, I think we didn't use half the rules. I always found the game a bit antiseptic, like a college text book or a Star Trek TNG hallway set. I didn't mind playing it, but it never inspired me to run. But holy smokes, did I love those sourcebooks. I still have a ton of them & consult them often.
I love that GURPS is infinitely hackable. In fact, I think it more than any other game system requires "house rules". If your group wants hard-core skills-based, heavy advantages/disadvantages, you can do that. For me, who tends towards solo RPG, I love that it can also play "GURPS Lite", allowing the narrative of the adventure bring out PC advantages and skills, etc. I tend to focus on the Basic Attributes and then modify as the situation calls for.
Feels like a lot of this would just be GURPS trying to be something that already exists. There are options for people that want simplified games with light mechanics. I'd rather GURPS lean into it's strengths, like it's insane amount of options for character creation. Talking about Templates taking away the best part of GURPS is how I feel when you talk about simplifying the Advantages. For people that do want a really easy to play and run system that can work for any genre, I'd look at Fate.
Considering the explosion of interest in the OSR, GURPS should really go all in on a cleaned-up and reimagined "The Fantasy Trip" in a kickstarter or something. I think there's room in the OSR for more classic systems that aren't built on B/X
@@Eron_the_Relentless To be honest, the Legacy edition feels like it was made for oldheads that knew about the game since the 1980's. I mean a total rebrand/reintroduction aimed at being in the same kind of conversation as OSE or Iron Falcon or DCC for players that like gritty fast paced osr style gaming, but aren't necessarily Grognards. I'd also like to see T&T do this, but that may not happen either.
One of the ideas that I had, and I think would work well with GURPS is actually a "GURPS CHAT GPT" that helps you figure everything out. Sounds crazy but you could be like "how much damage does my human PC take when they fall 13 meters" - and it would spit out the answer; would add tremendous speed to a truly simulationist system.
Have you checked out Google’s Notebook LM? You can feed your pdfs into it and it will basically just answer your questions exactly like you just described.
GURPS would be a lot more attractive if they could par and streamline it down to something more akin to Savage Worlds. (And, yes, I know about GURPS Lite, and that ain't it.) I don't think I've ever seen a thread on any rpg forum I've been to where some poor innocent soul says they have this campaign idea and they're curious about maybe trying GURPS and a bunch of GURPSheads didn't show up and say of course you'll need the Basic Set and then at least two more books because said basic set is such a pain in the ass to work with to get what you want or flat out doesn't have enough in its eleventy billion pages to properly cover the thing you want to do. Whole system needs to get blasted with the 80/20 rule. If they want it to be more appealing to a wider audience anyway.
Totally agree - 80-20 is the way to go, and throw everything else in other optional books. I laughed at your comment about GURPS fans, although I think it's more likely they just love to rabidly share all the ephemera of their favorite system. You can run a great fantasy game with just the Basic Set, but I almost always see people insist you absolutely need Low-Tech, Thaumatology, Martial Arts, and several pdf supplements too! :-)
Solid points, I especially agree with you on the second point regarding realism. In my opinion that obsession makes it hard to actually try to use it for any genre except for some weird perception of reality, that seems to me always like how nerd boys in the 90s thought the world works, and all the advice and special game mechanism is various sourcebooks won't change that. Together with the third point you make, regarding character creation, this always made characters in GURPS feel like the equivalent of an glass and steel skyscraper, but I prefer to have my character to feel more like a warm and cozy mansion. But I feel like those changes are too fundamental that they would really happen, and thus I doubt that 5th edition would be more to my taste. I would however love to be proven wrong and see a new edition that is more evocative in narrative oppotunities and not just this simulation game that, like I said, has a very different view on reality than I hold.
Just rewatched this and I agree with all of your points. 4e GURPS is such a dry, tough read that were I to finally get to run a GURPS campaign, I'd stick with 3e. The art was so much more evocative than 4e. Dan Smith's art is so weird and wonderful that it makes me want to try and stat out some of those concepts. I compare the core 4e book to reading 13th Age. That book is written in a much more casual way that is a real joy to read. I always felt like the books needed more examples of play to really help new players and GMs learn the basics. They have the "How to Play GURPS" book that should really be incorporated into the main book.
Point 3, Gurps could benefit from looking at the aproaches of other "generic" systems way of helping character creation. For example M&M 3e had a book with a guided character creation and there was an overwhelming support by playes to include an expanded version in the core book. To me, the templates in gurps, as a solid block of text it can be hard to read and sometimes players like rolling dice to see what they get. Sometimes I toss a coin to choose between a or b, it comes b yet I choose a, I use the throwing of the coin to inspect my feeling of my choices My opinion is that players and game masters want to be given help, be guided without feeling constrained. Naturally, the desire for flexibilty and focus are going to be at odds with one another. Another way to put it, gurps dosen't really need a new set of rules, but have another attempt to present the rules in a digestable manner while looking what other roleplay systems have done as of yet without copy and pasting
And an official virtual table top (VTT) support. Please, we need that! What they actieved in Fantasy Grounds Unity and Foundry was marvelous, but... Having an official source is way more better. I believe they can hire the developers from the community.
Long time GURPS fan, it could use a 5th edition and some books that haven't been updated since 3rd edition like the Bestiaries, Mars and various historical books.
I love GURPS, but it's so crunchy. The customization is amazing and I loved being able to make whatever I wanted. But the rules are so complicated and the modifiers are so confusing sometimes it feels like anyone who WANTS to come into the game won't because it is so huge and complex when making a character. That being said, I've been working on a Pathfinder and GURPS-inspired TTRPG that I think gets a strong middle ground.
GURPS is too bloated. I loved 1st/2nd Edition…it was a slick, clever game that got to the table easily and was a nice quick read. I’ve bought 3rd Edition books three times and 4th Edition twice along with Dungeon Fantasy twice as well…and not once have I got the game to the table. It’s sooooo boring to read. I’d prefer an approach more akin to Savage Worlds. I’d also like them to dump the way they do supplements. The Fantasy book for example needs to be a complete companion with a decent bestiary and not tied to the whole Banestorm stuff. Less essays about what is fantasy? And, more content to use at the table! Same with the other supplements like Gurps Space….it’s almost useless. The Traveller conversion books were better. The team behind Gurps are obsessed with too much detail and have such a dry writing style. SJG isn’t willing to take any financial risk with the game either and is playing things too safe and holding on to the game’s recent history which is laudable but will end in the systems slow decay into insignificance in the market…it’s pretty much already happened. Imagine what some fresh eyes could do with this game? Imagine if say…Free League got this? You’d get a streamlined core rules set, sensible, useable supplements, stunning art and production. All wrapped up in a well publicised Kickstarter that would no doubt go gangbusters. I don’t know but…I still like the early editions. I’ll never bother with Gurps if they don’t simplify it. YMMV
It was the explosive damage rules that went too far with 'realism' for me. The thing I want is to get rid of the accountancy needed for Wealth and equipment. I think you can have an optional rule where the character has a chance to be able to buy things with a dice roll or turn out to have something at home that will suit their needs for the current emergency. I don't know what you're trying to say with the stuff about templates.
One of the Pyramids (3-44 I think) has a system for rolling to afford things. I use it for some settings and it works great -- definitely check it out. I think my main point about templates is that they take away from the freedom of GURPS character creation (basically they begin to look a lot like classes), and don't necessarily simplify for new players too much since to make choices about a template you have to understand the various abilities. Plus, they really only exist for a few genres.
@@1ShotJC If freedom of character creation is your aim then fine: take all of the books and all of the time your GM will give you. But if you're a beginner you don't have the system mastery that requires and you want to get started then be grateful that the GM can say to you: here's a framework you can make your own with a little tweaking. And I think you'll find that most new setting books have Templates because SJG knows how useful they are. (And yes, I remember that Pyramid article which struck me as a good first step but not there yet.)
Revisiting this after my latest GURPS session last night. I recently switched to GURPS 3e from 4e with some parts I liked about 4e thrown in (the more uniform skill progression namely) since I think the layout and simplicity are just so much better (not needing to flip to 3 or 4 different pages just to use a shotgun is great). We used Black Mine of Teihiihan from your website and had a blast. The biggest downside was character creation. We used the Random Characters section of 3e to generate stats and appearance, but I then let everyone buy skills and Adv. & Dis. normally. I wish I had just gone full random or just had them pick skills from that random table. It would have cut character creation down from an 45 minutes to like 15 max.
I never used the old 3E random characters but the fact that you got it down to 45 minutes ain’t bad at all! Glad you enjoyed the adventure too - hopefully no one dynamited themselves!
I know if like to see the Dr Kromms list of essential adventures skills included in the core book it’s something I’ve had to reference every time I’ve ever helped someone make a character.
I have thought about this. I think rather than a new edition, per se, what it needs is to evolve. Imagine a fully digital version (and I don't mean as a VTT) but as an engine with DLC/plugins. Imagine having the tools to spin up your own PDFs, compiling the rules you wish to use in each game you are running. Instead of players asking if they can have 360 degree vision, they would get hand outs with the lists of what they can use to build characters, and a PDF generated with all of the descriptions. This would simplify all of choices made and would make each individual game at the table become 'Powered by GURPS. The beauty is, books would come as additional modules to this and allow the PDFs to be updated again. Easier cross referencing and look ups of rules would be very easy.
This is a clever, big idea. I think it would have to be a fantastic piece of well-produced, well-supported software to appeal to GMs and players alike (which I'm not sure if most tabletop companies can afford...). But if it had some good default modes for fantasy, action, scifi, etc, then the crazy customization could be reserved for the GMs creating something truly weird. Heck, even if GCS could be modified into a streamlined version, that would go a long way.
The problems with a new editions would be that i would need to wait another 20 years for all the books to come out again for 5th edition. Yes i know there probably would be a conversion guide. Yes i know i can use the non crunchy stuff (I do used 3rd ed books occasionally) but after being spoiled for choice of 200+ books in the GURPS 4th ed it would feel too much like playing a new Sims game without any Expansion packs and no pools. (At least id have to wait until all the cores were covered, High-, Low-, Ultra-tech, Biotech or some other medicine related book, Powers, certainly, and some expanded Magic psionics and thaumatology)
> Streamlining All of those physics-based math rules are a lot of what I like about GURPS. A lot of newer games give really unsatisfying gameplay because they overdo the simplification. I get that GURPS' detail might go a bit too far in the other direction if you're doing it all manually - but I don't see a reason you should have to do it all manually in 2023. IMO Give me GURPS v5 in mobile / desktop app form instead of a book, keep the math, and have it do the math automatically.
Hahaha! I'm a little mixed on the whole 20th anniversary of the same edition being celebrated. On the one hand that's impressive, on the other hand it really needed an update (even just a production upgrade) 5+ years ago.
I personally don't think gurps needs a 5th edition, more of a 4.5e/revised edition, the editorial direction in the basic set was something to be desired, not the worst but far from a game with as long as a legacy as gurps has. I also think SJG shoukd take a look at HERO 5E Revised as that has a few sectins dedicated to different generes like Cyberpunk, Fantasy & even Champions. They could still sell those lines but as expanded rules and chracter options and no one would feel the need to *buy* something like GURPS: High Tech just so they can play a military campaign. Have the simulationist rules front and center and leave realism to the supplement books imo. If there is going to be a 5e having it completely compatible with 4e and 3e splats is a must with minium conversions between the two.
I personally think that GURPS needs a rewriting to make rules clearer. A better GURPS should give options to simplify things but also keep sufficient detail. Just like Range modifiers. I don't feel like it should become a Savage worlds using D6, so simplifying isn't really a good point. As for Skills, Advantages and Disvantages. They should be kept open and fully described, but some setting based lists should be provide somewhere. I've had some special good moments with some Disadvantages that you suggested as "outdated", somethings that wouldn't happen in another system. Skills are a problem of their own. The Basic Set gives us an option that simplifies them. But I just think some of them should be better thought or grouped in a logical way that isn't sheer alphabetical order. Regardless, I'd totally buy into the idea of a fifth edition with a few perks from new Systems and a little crunchiness from the typical GURPS experience.
If I could, I would give you a heart as well besides the thumb up! I don't get it why SJG pushes Fantasy Trip out of nostalgia with several kickstarters but doesn't do the same with GURPS. It would be a perfect indicator to see if there is a broader interest in an updated GURPS.
I'd like a Fifth edition just so I can get books. I have a small library of 1st-3rd edition books and the 3E Rev Basic rules. I wanted to collect the 4th edition books but some of them are expensive since the game is not in print anymore.
100%. 3rd edition art was timeless, and made my imagination soar. 4th edition art makes me feel like I'm stuck in an office cubicle with spreadsheets in the 1990s.
Dan Smith is good, but... Let's just say that there are other artists out there. They really need to hire a competent art director and graphic designer. That's key.
@@allluckyseven There are reasons to consider Dan Smith "first among equals" when it comes to illustrating GURPS manuals. His style is already evocative of GURPS. His style is attractive and shows good draftsmanship. His style, while graphically sparse, is nevertheless strongly graphic and prints well. His style is suited to illustrating RPG books because while his illustrations are apt and iconic and he can convincingly draw anything from a stone-age savage to an ultra-high-tech cyberpunk, they are not so specifically detailed as to overpower the player's imagination. (That nearly all his illustrations for GURPS have been black-and-white is a large part of this.) However, I certainly agree that a good art director/graphic designer is crucial and I also have no objection to other excellent) artists participating. Somehow, though, I don't see d computer graphics being a good solution to the demands of an RPG game book's illustrations, especially of characters.
I prefer rolling more six sided dice to handle more difficult checks. GURPS as I understand it uses a method. That requires more character points to raise each skill point for more difficult skills. Then, again more flexibility by having more attributes goes along better. When using more dice and roll under for success. It would require an entire total overhaul, thus a need for a new edition.
You know, I've thought about this very idea as a fun solve. DCCRPG does this fun thing where difficulty uses different dice, e.g., d16s for easy rolls, d24s for hard ones. Nice and easy. But with GURPS and its 3d6 bell curve, I was never able to make the game design math work. Adding another d6 is basically a -3 penalty. That works fine (though might be swingy), and now you need new critical hits/miss rules. Adding 2d6 gets super hard for most characters, since it's essentially a -7, and you'll now typically need a skill-18 to succeed. And if I want to give a player a bonus, I can't take away a die, otherwise a base 2d6 roll will always succeed with most PC skill levels (and again, screws up critical hits/misses). So you'd have to do something like rebase the whole system on 5d6, change the critical hit/miss rules, and then rescale all the attributes and skills. At that point, you'll lose all backwards compatibility, you're asking players to add lots more dice, and it's starting to feel too much like a new game. Instead, I lean towards Mook's suggestions that you limit bonuses/penalties to a few levels of even numbers. So everything is either -2, -4, -6, or -8. You lose a little bit of granularity, but GMs can easily add that back in.
The only thing i agree on is absolutely the skills lists 😂 I hade my GM with me during creation but I was still like: "Do i need basic math?" "Do i need how to read?" "Do i need to know how to Use a knife?" Gurps is awesome, but it really need to move away from all them skills 😅 its ridiculous
Been thinking about rules and rule systems lately and there is sooo much out there. The market has always been saturated, now it will become more saturated. People don't know what they want anymore some like simple some like complicated. Even if you make the perfect system you will not toppled the giants in the industry.
Of course, if you don't want a simulationist game like GURPS, you could always not play GURPS and play Savage Worlds or even a story game! I suppose you don't like GURPS Vehicles... my favorite GURPS book.
I deeply admire GURPS Vehicles and had some fun creating some vehicles with it (I’m an old-school Car Wars nerd) but truthfully I never really got much of its material to the actual table.
Agree and disagree with the streamlining. While the time it takes to create a character (and flipping through all the possibilities) is a speed bump for the system, the biggest draw for GURPS is that you could create any kind of character. For example, you can create a sentient weapon that cannot move of its own volition but can psychically control its wielder or a superhero with multiple personalities who has different powers for each personality. My favorite GURPs character that I actually got to play with was a Necromancer who traveled various dimensions, eating the souls of evil-doers (he thought of it as recycling), and funding his travels with a literal skeleton crew running a fast food joint. But among the things that made it fantastic is that he literally HAD to eat the souls of sentient creatures as a game mechanic, not just flavor text on a generic disadvantage. Without that expressiveness, it's OK for running one-shots in the same system... but otherwise it's just a worse version of fantasy/mechs/horror, etc than a game designed specifically for that purpose. And even as a generic game for running quick one-shots, I would probably reach for Fate which has a beautifully stream-lined system and can handle not only individual genres but crossovers as well. The main limitation of fate is that after a bit, characters begin to feel mechanically very similar (every ability boils down to either a +1 / etc on a skill or being able to replace the typical skill with another). The advantage of GURPs is that it has mechanically different abilities so that different characters play and feel differently. Without the expressiveness in character design, it really doesn't compete with Fate which has a good, light-ish generic system, nor does it compete with heavier and/or more specific games in their genre. However, the happy solution would be to offer a streamlined core book and extensions that allow you to delve into the meatier, more creative aspects of GURPs. I would probably actually do a "basic" section of the core book, with another section offering some of the fun and crazy possibilities so that people can get a sense of the expressive power of GURPS.
Do you think that there should be a 5th primary stat? I feel like INT is just a tad too heavy and wish there was a more social skill (delineating between intelligence in a math sense and intelligence in a language/art/empathy sense).
I’m not convinced there should be a fifth stat (it would make backwards compatibility rough) but I do think reaction rolls / social rules should be more like skill rolls vs their own subsystem.
It need not be horribly overhauled, just reorganized and rewritten for clarity and conciseness. Make it a modular set of rules where GM can pick and choose systems, don’t define anything as GURPS “Lite” as it turns off people to think they are doing a remedial rules-set.
One reason (not the only one) that I went away from Hero, prefer GURPS, and will never go back is the patchwork nature of Hero system. There are at least three different ways to count up damage* (usually requiring two different ways on a single damage roll, so you're actually counting the damage twice over), a minimum of two different ways to check for success (roll a target number or the CV/DCV formula), and other ways that the rules just don't quite come together. The game is a mess, and it has never been fixed through five subsequent editions. GURPS has one way to roll for success, mostly one or at most two ways to roll for the effect of a success, and one way to roll for the effect of a failure (which is very similar to the ways of rolling for the effect of a success, and is not used most of the time anyway). Plus reaction rolls. It's really simple in concept, though like Hero it does have a number of special cases for special situations. As I said, though, unlike Hero it has a really simple and robust framework to build those special cases on. My point being that it seems to me that things go the other way more: if you like Hero, you're likely to love GURPS, assuming you aren't coming to it with other things already in your head ("I played Hero first, so it's better", "GURPS is complicated", and all of that sort of thing). *Ways to count up damage: total of dice, BODY total, total of dice times a STUN multiplier die. There might be others I'm not thinking of offhand. It has been a long while since I last played Hero.
I honestly feel like if I had started with HERO, I would have preferred it to GURPS. But having started with GURPS, HERO feels slightly off skew to me. But I respect the heck out of it!
I don't have a problem with cleaning up the rules, like moving a lot of the underutilized advantages to a powers book, and keeping Characters slim, but I like options. I would not want to see them take 360 Vision out of the game completely, because once in a while, that's a cool power and options are good. Sidenote: GMs can limit anything they don't think is necessary. DF gets rid of a lot of options because they don't fit the style of the campaign, but the GM can let them in too. Play how you want.
Agree, no need to get rid of stuff, just organize it in a more logical manner for most players. The problem with GMs being subtractive with the entire system though is that it’s hard to present to players, short of printing out pdfs of the books and redacting them with a black sharpie.
@@1ShotJC I think I saw an online tool to do just that at some point, but you shouldn't depend on that. Especially if is something made by a fan, because it may not be there when you most need it. Those things need to be better organized and separated into different books/PDFs in order to make it easier to add stuff that you want/allow in your game.
If your character lacks a certain skill, they can always roll vs a Default, like a related skill or just the attribute. Edit: Also, they should bring back Dan Smith to illustrate the books.
The only thing I really failed to adapt to GURPS was Dragon Ball Z, and I totally blame DBZ for that, I could theoretically make the characters in GURPS but the flow of the fights and development of the characters would never work in a similar way.
I've kind of had that same experience with powerful superheroes. The one second turns and various modifiers makes any MCU style fight really hard to replicate. Not impossible if you're willing to handwave a lot, but definitely difficult.
Regarding skills. Couldn't condensing skills be part of streamlining? i.e. Athletics covers climbing, running, jumping, swimming etc... You could even have a generic master skill, Athletics, and under it group all "subskills" swimming, climbing, jumping etc that you can specialize in if you want to (and by specialize, I mean really out of the ordinary, like specializing in jumping if you character is out of school and part of the Jumping Olympics team). Or Firearms, which covers basic shooting and weapons maintenance. Specialization could include a particular type of shooting without going to a particular model (Pistol/Revolver, Bolt Action Rifles, Automatic Weapons etc) or area of expertise beyond basic maintenance, like gunsmithing.
Streamlining for sure. I wouldn't even go as far as combining all athletics into one skill, but I would make sure each skill was reasonably wide -- Jumping, in your example, I agree is likely too specific for 99% of games. Also, it baffles me that something like Physician is a single skill, but Pilot is like 8 skills, and Engineer has a dozen or more. Dr. McCoy can be an amazing physician with 4 skills, while Scotty needs something like 15 skills to be a great engineer in GURPS. It's not outright broken... but it is weird and uneven.
I agree GURPS needs to dial back the realism and streamline more, particularly in the usefulness of skills. Trouble is, the usefulness of a skill depends on the genre and campaign. The separation between Body Language and Detect Lies might be useful in a police procedural, not so much in a dungeon crawler. The distinctions between Acting, Fast Talk, and Sex Appeal apply to a corporate infiltration but are too much for action movie. Individual Mechanic specialisations makes sense for a WWII military campaign but is too much for a planet hopping space opera. This suggests wildcard skills but the GM has to define which ones exist and/or write them as well as for normal skills. This means he's writing a campaign or genre list. In the age of ubiquitous computing, 5th edition should have genre advantage/disadvantage/skill lists as free, supplemental PDFs, referring to the Basic Set Characters book.
I don't mind the quantity of skills for that exact reason, but there are definitely ones that I am willing to bet are too specific for any campaign. Applied Mathematics vs. Pure Mathematics? (One heliper for GMs might be suggested per-genre character sheets, which have recommended skills on them already)
GURPS like the SCIENCE! SWORD and SURVIVAL! skills should make a list of under 20 skills that can be the alternate simple skill list for when you just don't wanna deal with distinguishing 7+ types of medicine or what specific arbitrary type of melee weapon you're using when it's all swing for the soft bits. just like create a book of GURPS genuinely LITE. not a book that's incomplete but 1 that is just simple since that would handle most games. Sure I can love complicated rules at times like hit location, bleeding, intersectional theory of how my character is judged or whatever, but other times I want Anna Keys the cyberpunk to just shoot the future cops and use science to hack without looking up 3 tables.
I think mechanically 4th edition is better (no PD, higher costs for DX and ST were big improvements alone), but miss the simpler, less intense, presentation of 3rd.
YOu didn't talk about Limitations and Enhancements..... and the difference between Powers and Advantages and Talents --- that's confusing as heck! Run a GURPS Supers & Modern Ops game the guys said. it will be fun they said...
Simplifying the rules is a current fad in gaming right now, but mark my words, things will come full circle, and people will want more complexity. I think the system is well thought out enough to answer any question that might arise during a game. However, the books would benefit greatly from a complete artwork overhaul. The system works great, so why change it.
Gaming trends definitely do come in cycles. But games also tend to get more elegant and streamlined - they don't go backwards there. Eg compare an average complex SPI 1970s wargame to a complex modern GMT game. Still quite complex and deep, but far more elegantly designed and streamlined.
I think a GURPS 4.5E would be the ideal for me. Streamline some of the more clunky stuff while keeping it 4e at it's core while also adding some of the best content from various supplements, pyramid articles and Kromm forum posts for 4e. Also for the love of god get some better art.
I have played 2 campains of Gurps and GMed one and over all im not a fan I enjoy the concept you can play anything i think thats rellay cool but now my problems as a player there is way to much choise to spend points on and then keeping track of what advantages and disdvantages you have bought has eveytime had me adding up at the end finding the guy i made is over the limit by a few points or even worse finding ouy mid game you have over or spent and now feel bad I dont like that alot of the dvantages dont come up Light Sleeper i took for a mad scientists in a stemppunk game sleeping never came up in the game or his lack of sleep half the skills you take wont come up take swiming and theres no water for miles take driving and eveything take place inside when I GMed Gurps it almost broke my group it was a super hero game in my group we have a MINmaxer a rules lawyer, one player that finds luring new rules hard and one go with flow player "dancer that sounds like fun ill take that" I love all of them and they are grate to play with so our minMAXer went digging for the most optimal build to make with his points the outher 3 went thought the book going that sounds cool ill take that we endded up with black wideo that could shrink, a sort of nick furry type. plastic man crossed with wolverine and a unkillerable tank that could unleash a huge psychic blast with huge dice rolling involved and they could fly how they spent their point i dont know all i rember is them sawing they where take the blast thing because the saw on a foram it was way more OP than something eles anything that challged the 3 players the tank would take out with his psychic blast anything that could face the tank would wipe the floor with the outher 3 makeing matter worse when the player talked about how they keeped getting smoked or not feeling like they could do much in a fight our minMAXX would say something like "you could have made better heros" in a very dickish way oh but you could have just .... how helpful i tired alot of stuff it just didnt work out no one was having fun except one of us so we stopped a played something elese i will never run gurps for our group becuse it brings out the worst in our group but if you enjoy it i wish your new 5 e all the best
Even though it sounds like your experience was like filling your eye sockets with bees - I agree with a lot of your points. Light Sleeper is such a weird disadvantage, crammed in there along with great ones, like Stubbornness and Overconfidence which almost always come in to play!
This example is exactly what I like about GURPS. I can make my PC however I want. I despise classes and subclasses, because they include filler, while excluding interesting things, or throw in just bizarre things. Some game designer telling me what a thief is, is asinine. That might be a thief in his world, but not in mine. Look at the Arcane Trickster in 5e, they get spells and everyone says that's cool, but enchantment and illusion? Why? What if I don't like those choices? If my GM is a rules lawyer, and most are, then I'm stuck with someone else's thief package, not mine.
I just want an easily run combat and/or magic system. Although I love GURPS, people aren't going to go through the mechanics of fighting for an hour every single action.
Character creation doesn't need to be streamlined. You either use templates or you swim into the beautiful sea of 300 pages of the first book. If your character doesn't end up having swim you roll the default, that's what defaults are for, not a big deal, if your GM is not a dick you'll have fun, your character doesn't have to be flawless (I would almost argue that it isn't supposed to be). In 3rd edition you end up using way more books, like way waaaaay more. 4th has a good concise core, actually. It's sufficient for many styles of play. Two things bother me about GURPS. The core shouldn't be split into two books, it's weird and annoying. Just give me a big chunky 500 pages hardback. I don't care if it's scary, it's part of the charm. And the production value is bad. Yes. 100% About the fifth point. I think GURPS is fun, I don't know what to say to justify this. "Shooting a zombie with a shotgun" is fun for me precisely because I get to throw a bunch of dice and add up the total. I would (begrudgingly) tolerate a fifth edition if it had way better production value, a single huge core rulebook, and a fairly simple conversion path for 4th edition books
Agree to disagree on templates and GM guidelines. It feels like a lot of complaints you’re making about character creation, which I think are valid, are really coming from a place of a guy who likes to run one shots. The whole point of the generic system although it allows the use of one shots easily, is for the GM to pare down the number of options available to cater to a specific campaign. I do agree though that the basic book needs To be cut in half and a lot of excessive detail, like falling rules, or bleeding or whatever needs to be in other supplements
I’ve actually run a lot of long campaigns recently with GURPS, including porting Enemy Within, Drinax, and Darkening of Mirkwood. My group almost always has to “respec” their PCs several times before they fully understand what works and what doesn’t in GURPS. But I definitely agree with pushing stuff to other books!
@@1ShotJC As a GM, running a campaign in the system, every time I’ve had a problem with respec, It’s always my fault. Either I haven’t prepared enough templates or lenses or given The Players adequate guidance regarding genre, or the specifics of the campaign.
I feel like GURPS is a fantastic system in sub-optimal packaging. There's a certain point at which the system just clicks and you start to "see the code", but getting there can be a struggle. For me, it was playing a 25/-15 point adventure with zero preparation. For one of my players, it was when I handed him a gun. I feel like it's different for everyone, but right now the only way to reach that point is to play the game.
where they playing a teenager
I want the physics stuff to be optional rules rather than the default. I think having simpler, more abstracted rules will help.
Man, you should send this to SJG right away. Best analysis of the flaws of GURPS I have ever seen. Also, crazy that it has been so long since 4e came out! Finally, just so you know OSR GURPS already exists, it is called The Fantasy Trip.
GURPS 4e needs a Lite version that is complete and as robust as the one 3e had. The 3e lite version had literally enough of the game that you could run a great game with it.
I played GURPS back in 1987. Loved it and still remember all the games I played with it. I can't say that about other systems I have played.
Wow. Tell us more
please tell us more
As someone who started out thinking we didn't need a new edition, I think you make some very good points. However, I think to make this worth while the solution is mostly a reformat of the existing rules. Similar to what 4th Ed did separating combat and tactical combat into two separate chapters SJG could do this with a new book with simple and complex (physics) rule-sets. As you put it the follow-up books and PDFs certainly have some improvements. The challenge here, of course, is that everyone has a different line of where to slice that up, but that would be an SJG decision.
The second thing I think we need is to accept that the two core 4th ed books are essentially the Game Master's Guides. They are not digestible by most newer players. This is one of the barriers to getting new players. Steve Jackson games should start putting out genre specific Player's Handbooks. IMHO, this could be a limited run of 16-ish hard-bound books: Cavemen, Empires, Middle Age/Renaissance, Fantasy/Magic, Pirates, Martial Arts/Wuxia, Revolutions/Civil War, Wild West, Victorian/Occult, Roaring 20s/Gangster/Pulp, World Wars/Pulp, Spy/Cold War, Cyberpunk, Apocalypse, Space with the add of a Supers/Psi. These would all be focused on empowering the players and have the races, templates, specific skills and techniques and a whole host of TL specific equipment (which could be consolidated into one PDF).
You've convinced me.
Yes! I agree with you on this. A reformat of the rules would go a long way. I actually LIKE a lot of crazy options within GURPS, but most of it should be tucked away in a GM's Guide. GURPS Lite *almost* solves the problem, except it's too terse, too dry, and actually missing some key rules you need for many genres. I also miss the 3rd edition approach of genre books that helped players and GM's focus their campaigns.
3rd edition didn't need a new edition, yet there came a boring fajjeet named Kromm...............
@@1ShotJC Hmm... I wouldn't go insofar as saying that it should be tucked in a GM's guide (assuming something like a second basic book like Campaigns)... Because GMs need a lot of help with GURPS too. They certainly don't need to be overwhelmed with rules either. The main books need to teach the players how to play the game and be extremely well organized, because they're also reference manuals. Putting too many rules in it will make it harder to find that one thing that you need to know in the middle of a game session.
I've run GURPS since 1986 and I totally agree with this content and enjoyed this video very much!
IMO GURPS realism was born out of the obsession with the mid to late 80's push for RPG's to be more real. It was one of the selling points of Runequest and I believe a big reason why DnD second addition expanded skills and classes, it was the reason I switched to the system. The negatives for me, are the long combat sequences, the prep time as a GM.
You make some very good points about why a 5th edition would be great.
long prep time? :) Pretty sure you're doing too much.
If you only read one thing in my post is should be this: I don't think you can streamline character creation and keep the customization that makes GURPS special. It was the system my group played for years and it almost never took me less than an afternoon to create more than a basic NPC even with programs like GCA.
1. GURPS didn't go from using one book in 3e to using two bigger books in 4e. It went from using shelf's worth of books in 3e to a few books in 4th. Including every advantage/disadvantage/skill even the niche ones was very much a continuation of the concept of the compendium books from the end of 3e. I can remember creating a character for a fantasy game and using the basic book, fantasy folk, magic, grimoire, martial arts, fantasy, china, japan, rome, arabian nights, and low tech to be sure I had just the right mix of stuff to spend points on.
2. Maybe it was the GMs I played with but my group never used the most simulationist rules because they as you point out slow down play to much. However simulation has always been the hallmark of GURPS and including a simple and a complex set of rules for situations makes the rule set longer.
3. 360 degree vision is first because the advantages are listed alphabetically which does make it easier to find the text for a specific listing later. Also if you have to read the whole entry for 360 degree vision to figure out if fits your character I don't know what to tell you because it's exactly what it says on the tin. However this does go back to point number two because this particular advantage doesn't matter if your game doesn't use field of vision arcs.
Still 3. I can remember when reputation, appearance, and status were in sections before the rest of the advantages and having to flip to a different section to find them reduced my tendency to use them either as advantages or disadvantages.
More 3. Yeah there have been some pretty useless skills (Filch, Starglazing, Uttering of the Base Coin) but there are almost never enough points to spend on every skill that is potentially useful: this is the curse of customization.
4. Yep, nope, totally.
5. More than anything else and for this reason alone should there be a fifth edition.
Thanks Jonathan Frank, completely agree with you. The only argument I could get behind was the improved production values; all of the other points fall apart upon consideration.
I quite disagree, actually. One of the reasons it has taken me a LONG time to migrate from 3rd edition to 4th edition is that the 4th edition rules, while really not very different from 3rd, are significantly harder to work with. Having all those extra advantages and skills in a separate book was a GOOD thing. Having powers largely separate was a GOOD thing. And the 3rd edition skill layout, with a number of categories and the skills alphabetical within that, was for practical purposes much more manageable than the full alphabetical layout in 4th. When I'm putting together a character, whether as a player or doing a significant NPC (Mooks obviously don't get anything like the full treatment), I tend to work with the categories a lot. So if I have a thief-y or espionage oriented character, sure, they won't have ALL the thief/spy skills, but I can look fairly quickly through what's on offer and grab the ones that are relevant. If I have a somewhat "ranger-ish" type, a quick look at the Outdoor skills grabs me my core stuff easy peasy. Same same with combat skills and so on. But in 4th, to try to figure out what the key skills for my concept are requires that I look through all hundred pages or whatever of the skill list, flip back and forth, forget some of them, look again . . . it's a pain. Even with a .pdf version where I can do searches, it's still a pain because the point is I can't search for something I don't remember I need. Going back to the 3rd edition skill layout would help a lot. It's not quite as big a deal with advantages/disadvantages but still might help.
Side note: Starglazing is great! In a medieval style campaign that isn't that dungeon-oriented you can use it a lot, actually. If you want to get into somewhere, in my campaigns the windows are shuttered and barred or may well not be designed to open at all. There's certainly no lock to pick on the outside. With Starglazing you can quietly disassemble a lot of barriers whose owners were not stupid enough to put a lock somewhere you could pick. You don't have to be that amazing at it because while there are plenty of locks made to be hard to pick, there's basically no such thing as a barrier designed to be hard to starglaze. I suspect with a bit of creativity you could actually use modernized Starglazing really well in a cyberpunk campaign. "So the door opens with a keycard that we can't duplicate, it sends an alarm if tampered with, and you say we're hooped? Hrm, if I disassemble the door frame, and then expose these wires (snip) . . ."
@@purplelibraryguy8729 I completely agree with you on the skills being broken up by category being very useful for finding the skills you needed when creating a character but it is much less useful when reading your sheet and trying to figure out what a skill did especially if it was in multiple categories because then entries would tell you to go to a different section.
Also appearance was listed in the social advantages but it told you to go to a different page to figure out how much each level cost and what the rules were for it which made it more difficult to tell when an advantage was actually useful for a character concept.
I completely disagree with there not being barriers that are hard to starglaze. All you have to do is have the door jamb protect the latch and put the hinges on the inside of the door and then you have to be serious enough to go through wall to get in and really that's just a series of damage rolls no real skill needed. And for that they make door frames that extend further into the wall.
If you're getting into snipping wires I'd say that's also covered by the more broadly useful electronics repair(Security) skill or if you're being generous lockpicking at the appropriate TL.
I was incorrect when I said that skills like starglazing are useless because in their niche they are very useful it's just their niche tends to be covered by a different skill in the game and so is better represented by the techniques option just like kicking is a niche covered by brawling and karate (Also DX).
@@jonathanfrank1812 Good point about it being possible to foil Starglazing, I hadn't been thinking about that sort of defensive measure. But if you're in a medieval-type campaign even a decent skill will be dashed effective at getting you into most normal buildings. You can certainly just say other skills, or techniques from them, give you that capability; what skill is what is always a matter of how you define it. Comes down to which way you think feels cooler in play, I suppose. I kind of LIKE Starglazing existing as a skill, and I think I've even had a character or two who had it but did not know how to pick actual locks. (I agree on Filch though, and Uttering Base Coin is one of those skills that exist almost entirely because probably there are some NPCs who should have it, not because anyone is ever going to use it. IMO if your character has time to be making fake gold pieces, they should be stealing some real ones instead--much more fun)
As to the organization of the rules--in a hypothetical 5th edition I do agree appearance and such should stay rolled into advantages properly instead of having that odd separation like they were supposed to be a different concept. But I would definitely prefer to have skills grouped. Especially now that I'm usually using the .pdf version day to day, so if I know what skill I'm looking for 'cause it's already on my character sheet, it's a quick search even if it shows up on a couple different pages.
I think the absolute most important thing that would make a 5th edition worth it - and it would honestly require changing almost none of the systems or rules - is if they made an actually good core rulebook that threw out all the simulationist gunk into its own separate companion, focused on designing a startup guide that even a noob GM could handle, streamline/better arrange how the rules are presented so it flows logically, and just publish that. Because at its core, GURPS is NOT complicated, and could be run even by people who'd struggle with D&D - ASSUMING - they actually understand what the rules are saying, which the current core books are terrible at conveying imo
I still vividly remember running GURPS at Paizocon for Pathfinder players who told me GURPS felt sooo much simpler than what they were used to. So yes!
Part of it feeling simpler is that "simulationist gunk" though.
The rules create intuitive results.
I agree with simplifying the core book. However, I feel that the grounding in some semblance of reality and intuitive results should remain the starting point from which the rest of the system is constructed.
@@johnnydibert6212 full agree, physics is great for everything, except falling, seriously, I was not ready to do that much maths to get a result that's still going to be randomized by D6s anyway.
99% of games take place with earth gravity, or not giving enough of a fig newton to change it, so just let the damage be set off something super simple, 1d6 per second of falling is close enough.
1. Reorganization
a) Get rid of the two column format
b) But please KEEP the good table of contents and index (don't take one step forward and two back). Keep this great thing about GURPS
2. Modularization
3. Simplification (especially with lower point cost characters)
a) Less math
b) Give options to streamline things and keep the game running faster
4. Ranged combat reorg -- See modularization and simplification above
a) Action genre version has simplified Ranged combat, that needs to be in the main system as a generic option (he pointed this out in the video)
b) Better examples on ranged combat since it's the thing that most beginners have issues with
5. Re-evaluate names and costs
a) Example - Honesty vs Truthfulness -- why isn't Honesty renamed Law-Abiding?
6. Great full color art -- Art sells. (he makes a good point about GURPS artwork).
The learning curve plays a crucial role in the player experience, and this is where we see a marked distinction between Dungeons & Dragons (D&D) and GURPS.
I think that you make a lot of good points. I'd also like to see the game be scaled back to a human baseline. The current orthodoxy of the "rule of cool" has pushed default point values higher and higher until now 250-350 point characters are seen as the normal starting level in nearly every genre dive they make anymore (even After the End recommends 250 point templates). The more points, the more character to keep track of, to put together in the first place, and the more they get in the way of the game. Dai Blackthorn in earlier editions was a nice, simple, heroic adventurer. Now he's a world-jumping sci-fi superhero whose character sheet has a lot on it to wade through. And his companions are just crazy.
I totally forgot about what they did to Dai Blackthorn! I missed a lot of good humor opportunities right there….
I'd snatch up a GURPS 5th ed Hardcover in a heartbeat. I am that rare guy that loves to read the rules, and I have collected all the editions - the so the density of 4th ed doesn't bother me. But a re-organized approach and format would be nice. Someone here mentioned doing simpler genre books for ease of entry. I like that...KEEP 4th ed as the encyclopedia for serious GM's. BUT introduce a new line of easy entry "books" for players and beginning GMs for each main genre.Include in each a hold-the-hand- character creation and solo story like Mentzer's Red Box. The success there was, "just get them rolling dice and into the game, and the rest will come". 3rd ed had All in A Night's Work and it was successful, but this new line would take it a step further. Each book having the common & Genre skills, a GM area, and a bestiary, solo adventure.
Dungeon Fantasy, powered by GURPS seems to juuuust miss the mark. And the 250 pt characters erase the point of a intro, genre-specific box-set.
And, if a group or player is into fantasy, just introduce them to The Fantasy Trip. It's faster anyway and already genre-specific.
In fact, I appreciate SJG brought TFT back exactly as it was as far as the rules set and format. But I'd like to see it updated with a new format. New Hardcover. resolving some inconsistencies.
To make it even simpler, you could just introduce them to a programmed adventure over at Dark City Games. They have a simplified rules set that is pretty fun.
I like the push for realism. Imo, it could contain two sets of rules: basic vs full
In fact, I made my own house rules a while back to make combat more realistic. Never tried them tough.
@@UlissesSampaioaren't there supplements for it as well
Well, Even the Bible needed a New Testament.
I played GURPS first edition, along with AD & D, Marvel Super Heroes, and FASA Star Trek RPGs. I started GURPS 4th Edition, so I could play/run games from Fantasy, to Super Hero, to post apocalyptic, to futuristic. Except for character creation, the base GURPS rules are pretty simple. Adding all optional rules can make it complex and realistic. Supplements can be expensive, but the added rules and clarifications can help when you're having difficulty adapting base rules to what you want to run. I'm not sure how all issues that might be present in 4th edition can get solved with a new edition, but some things you pointed out might get solved with a new edition.
So I have a love-hate relationship with GURPS, and you summarize well where some of the hate comes from here :-D I started reading Man-to-Man recently and had fun making characters and getting into combats after just 30 pages of reading. I think a new GURPS 5e should take this approach too - something better than GURPS Lite which invites players into the game and gets them on their feet and playing quickly. I love your one shots by the way and am amazed how many you've produced since we were last in touch (I was automating Dragon's Demise on Foundry, and you were helping me with that).
It is worth remembering that _GURPS_ started out as 'unversal-by extension'. That is basic set was nothing but medieval adventuring without magic, and everything else would come from sourcebooks. Many of the changes over the succeeding three editions were integrating everything that fell out of adding in the rest.
The problem with the main proposal is of course is how to go back to something like that without splitting everything up. I'd think you'd still want one complete reference for the more ambitious GMs/groups. Something like a line of focused starter kits akin to the genre kit line (Action, DF, ATE, etc). If that would _sell_ is another question. The closest we've got is _DF_ itself, and I have know idea how well it really did. I understand why they wanted to tweak things for that to be the best independent product it could be, but at the same time I think lining up with _GURPS_ would have been better for the line.
Better art would be a big plus, it's been a downhill slide since the beginning of the 90s. Layout and writing is fine for me (I find reading through the Advantages chapter nicely inspriational). Templates are unreadable messes of text however. Something _really_ needs to be done there.
Agree. As others have pointed out, 3E blossomed into several core books over time. But part of me thinks this is just how RPGs inevitably evolve over time, and trying to avoid it might be a fools errand. Even 4th edition has supplements with options that I use all the time, that I would love to see incorporated into the main rules.
@@1ShotJC At the very tippy top of my wishlist is "incorporate complementary skills into the heart of the system and rework all 'roll vs skill #1, if you succeed, your skill #2 roll gets a bonus'-type mechanics to be complementary skills instead." That's the big thing that bothers me about 4e. There are so many mechanics that do the same basic thing, but use slightly different rules for it. That's a waste of design space, a waste of space inside the book, and a waste of space inside my head.
@@MADMACHlNE Right? Just give the character a bonus on a roll with skill #2 if skill #1 is above a certain level (being consistent throughout all applicable skills).
@@allluckyseven Complementary Skills are a bit more complicated than that since the mechanic inherently involves multiple rolls, but they're great because they can represent so many different things. You can complement your own skills:
- Naturalist to complement Diagnosis rolls to identify venoms by their effects
- Savoir-Faire (In-Group) to complement Acting rolls to impersonate a member of (In-Group).
- Running to complement Jumping to make a running jump.
Or you can complement other people's skills:
- To distract a guard by showing some leg, roll Sex Appeal to complement your ally's Stealth.
- To provide instrumental accompaniment, roll Musical Instrument to complement the vocalist's Singing.
- To participate in a magic act as a confederate, roll Acting to complement the magician's Sleight-of-Hand.
It works really well, and it works for a huge variety different things without feeling bland or samey-it's an ideal rule for a generic toolkit system. My hope is that 5e promotes this rule to the level of a core mechanic, right up there with things like Quick Contests.
@@MADMACHlNE Oh, you meant the opposite of what I thought you did! Sorry, English is my second language.
Well, I don't know, I think it would make GURPS much faster if they just gave you a flat bonus based on your Skill Level. Like, you don't (or shouldn't) test your skills all the time. And I think that that should be applied to complementary skills as well as to help other characters, depending on the situation. You might still have roll in situations like those that you pointed out to complement another character's actions, because you're acting together but doing different things, you're not just telling them what to do. It makes sense, so I'm on the fence about that.
Thanks for the thorough post, I appreciate that.
I'm with most points here, but I have a few:
A. Don't cut back the realism, just make it simpler. The best simulation games are the ones where you can still know what you're doing.
Hay, two of my favorite games: ArmA and Rimworld, despite being two different type of games are both designed to be realistic but I can still take action even if I've never encounter the mechanic before.
B. Remove the perks and I'd say make the advantages, disadvantages, and quirks work much like it did for 3rd. As A. quirks were bonus points for caring about not making a blank cardboard character, and tons of advantages were expensive while a ton of disadvantages gave back points but you had to rollplay it or face the GM making you face consequences for it. It made it a little more tactical on what you chose, especially when there's a type of character you want to play but can't afford it easily.
C. Make better racial/non-human characters, 3rd its easy but felt limiting because it cost points just to have that race, and one freind had this quote when I was struggling and ask for help how to make a pokemon survival theme adventure work: "What the difference between putting 30 points into STR -- and having 40 points put into STR for you, then cutting back by 10 anyway?"
I know 4th tried to remove some issues that existed in 3rd to prevent them from being too powerful, according to their guide how to update characters at least, but instead made it pointless to play anything but a human (or at least from my testing).
I'm saying this a year later because I didn't know about this, and as a someone from genZ that started with 3rd and tried multiple times to play 4th, multiple times, but those 3 issues kept coming back and made it not fun to make an adventure, might as well voice them so maybe someone else can too. I want to run a 4th edition game just to add more feed back and be able to have a more professional keen eye where I can put what I like vs. what might work for other people.
To simplify why I like the system over D&D and many others, there are two reasons, actually 2.5 and the first one is in the 3rd edition book itself:
"You can take your [medieval fantasy] Wizard, and put him on the beaches of Normandy in World War 2 with zero needing to worry switching to a different rule set."
And I can do that with a customizable amount of realism, allowing me to simulate that experience as detailed or as fantastic as I like.
And the .5 reason is something Zee Bashew said "Why not use a different system, well I want a certain experience for just a few sessions its easier to just jury rig something in a familiar system then to spend time finding a new one."
To me GURPS was by design able to be jury-rigged into whatever experience you need, making it so easy to add what I need and it to still function.
We had my brutal pokemon survival I mentioned earlier, but I also easily hodge together a town builder manager game with the ability to have a randomly generated history straight up by using the same concepts from the character sheet, so players already knew what everything kinda did and could work the adventure from that.
I can't help but agree with you, although I do think you give the character templates a hard time. They're genre specific, after all, and they undoubtedly speed up character creation.
FWIW I think the real game changers for GURPS (out of the issues you mentioned) would be a conversational writing style and a narrative control mechanism.
GURPS is really simple. It just has /lots/ of extras.
Prep times: really short, mostly getting names and working out personalities and working out at least one plot twist.
My fantasy game's been going since 1992, lots of fun.
My biggest pet peeve is the way character blocks are presented as a big blob o' text. Sacrifice some page space for readability, please!
I agree with all your points except when it comes to templates. While I agree that they shouldn't be too restricting, I also believe that they're necessary to "set the bar," so to speak, for the setting they're being used for. I mean, creativity is one thing, but do you really want that wild west character taking 360 degree vision?
The blocks definitely feel like Excel exports... would love to see them go through a serious usability pass!
I'm still mixed on templates. I like that they simplify, but don't like that they still can overwhelm. E.g. the Thief template in Dungeon Fantasy has you pick from among 20 advantages, 16 disadvantages, and 18 skills, which is still a lot (compare to the same rogue in 5E where you pick from not much of anything until 3rd level). I like that templates let players easily create archetypes, but don't like that in creating archetypes, GURPS loses some of its magic of being able to create truly unique characters you can't get in other games - you'll likely never get a Tyrion Lannister, but will get lots of Jaime Lannisters with templates, lol. Definitely not against them by any means though.
While I've never tried GURPS, you've convinced me to give it a try. Also, where did you get your GM screen?
Yay! Btw, it is an older Dogmight GMs screen.
You captured almost everything I feel. I love GURPS, but between the elements you mentioned and the lack of completed animals, bandits and monsters it was unapproachable.
I wasted a lot of money and the players dumped it after 4 sessions with a "never going back" comment.
Gurps 5th edition Will be coming in 2026, where it has 40 years on the table
I hope so! (Not going to do the math on how old I was I first played....)
I agree with you so much on your first point. GURPS desperately needs a more condensed version. We don't need ALL of those rules inside of a _Basic Set..._ SJG should leave that for supplements. I mean, most people I know already consider Martial Arts an indispensable supplement. Why not treat supers and other more exotic stuff like that too? Let the Basic set be just that. Basic. The essentials of the system.
(someone could argue that that's what GURPS Lite is for, but no, Lite is just _too_ basic... no pun intended.)
On your second point, yes, that too. Make it a supplement with more crunch for people who want that.
On point 3, I also agree. Actually I think that skills in general should be broader, kind of like Wildcard Skills. But I don't see that changing. That could alienate the player base too much.
But yeah, in general the book should guide you through character creation, making it much easier. 3rd Edition had the Instant Characters booklet, which helped a lot...but that book also had way fewer skills and ads/disads. And speaking of those, ads/disads and skills could be less verbose. Not having to read a ton of text just to know how a certain characteristic works in the game would make character creation much faster.
EDIT: IMO Skills, Ads and Disads could be grouped again like they were in previous editions BUT they should be preceded by an list in alphabetical order.
On point 4, yeah, I don't have to say anything on that. But I will anyway. :P
GURPS (as we all know...) never had great looking books. Even the better ones (like Dungeon Fantasy) don't look that good. And this is not just about art, it's about layout and graphic design. I complained a lot about this many years ago in the sjgames forums, but they seemed clueless. Maybe now if they've seen what Free League has been putting out. They really need to up their game.
Point #5: ABSOLUTELY YES.
Perhaps they should try and make it kind of like the GURPS "for dummies" book.
BTW I was a 2nd-3rd edition player and I _was_ overwhelmed when I got the 4th edition books.
GURPS was my first love - we played the hell out of it in the 90s - missed 2e DND entirely.
Ahh... I loved GURPS 3rd. Bought 4th and found I couldn't concentrate on GMing because I was always in the rule book. idk why I didn't just go back to 3rd, but I searched for a long time for a fast universal system and landed on Savage Worlds (and also, I like using all the polyhedral dice). I like your GURPS 5th generation vision a lot.
Are there any news/rumors about a 5th edition?
As @MrAndrewGil mentioned in his post, of all GURPS needs a rewriting and restructuring to make rules clearer. Maybe with more examples, like creating new advantages/powers out of the existing, etc. And to collect all those myriad of options from the countless pdfs to have a better overview.
Oh, and since starter sets are en vogue, that wouldn't hurt either. Take W.O.I.N. as example, they have one starter box coming with one fantasy adventure, one modern and one sci-fi adventure each. So one for each taste.
I haven't heard anything new since SJGames asked the question about what fans are looking for in a 5th edition a few months ago. Maybe they'll surprise us at Gencon! Love the idea of a starter set too.
@@1ShotJC I cross my fingers, I'd love to convince my group of GURPS but when they took a look at the character creation they declined, wishing for WOIN as a more accessible mini GURPS instead. And I can't blame them WOIN is a fine generic system, Nonetheless my heart truly beats for GURPS and there is still hope till Gencon. I wished SJG would at least try Kickstarter for such an endeavor to minimize losses, should the demand for a new GURPS shouldn't be as high as we hope.
LOL, your comment about how you can teach the game in 2 minutes reminds me of AD&D. I don't know why games are so complicated now but I'm old.
A toast to us old gamers :-)
I don't really think it needs a new edition, but I agree it would benefit from a new entry book. Something between lite and the core books with some of the simplified rules from new supplements.
I just want to go back to playing Melee and Wizard.
The Fantasy Trip is a good option and was recently re-released.
@@kevinkingmaker7395 Nice! Didn't know that! Looking into it.
A lot of the problems you mention here are not GURPS ruleset problems, they are GURPS-as-a-product problems. This is a challenging issue to navigate because you don't want to change the core values of the brand while you're at it. I think the current approach of the 2004 core books is to present themselves like an encyclopedia. This has the (alleged) benefits of making them better at being reference materials, but makes them patently worse at conveying the toolkit nature of GURPS... not an RPG system, but an RPG system *construction kit* based on the premise you should not only choose *which* rules you will use in the first place, but *which version* of the same rules you will use (to which the range table example illustrates.)
Furthermore, the writing style of GURPS has a dense workmanlike quality that, at least for me, makes it a difficult even morose read. I find myself really surprised that HERO System (which shares some of the same problems as GURPS and clocks at a whopping 750+ pages on their current core books) makes for a much snappier reading experience.
So yes, please make a 5th edition and address (at the very least) those issues!
I think I agree with just about everything you said here. A streamlined version of GURPS would be nice to see. My only note is that a new edition should be accompanied by a big marketing push that shows how simple the game is at its core. GURPS overly technical reputation scares away so many people who would love the game if they ever gave it a chance.
What I'd want for GURPS 5e:
1) Go back to two-column pages.
2) Incorporate character goals and beliefs into providing extra CP at the end of the session (kind of like Torchbearer).
3) Simplify modifiers. Compared to its most direct competitor, HERO, the modifiers are often huge and penalties often really screw over anyone with lower than a 14- skill level.
3a) This would probably be a good place to insert Roll & Keep-style modifiers, which actually works better with 3d6 than with 1d20 (small mod is 4d6 roll, big mod is 5d6 roll, huge mod is 6d6 roll). For overall bonus, roll & keep the highest 3 dice. For overall penalty, roll & keep the lowest 3 dice.
4) Shrink that gargantuan skill list. Ideally, use the same skill list as, say, Mutants & Masterminds 2e (which had around 40 or so skills, especially when you take into account the various Knowledge skills). Any more fine-tuning should be a bonus to a specific use of a skill (i.e. a specialty).
5) Change the formula for calculating carrying capacity from ST^2 to doubling every 5 points of ST from a base of 10. Like that, super-strong characters don't need to put as many points into ST or Lifting ST in order to lift massive amounts of weight.
6) Change the 1-second rounds to 3-second rounds. 1-second rounds are way too pedantic, even if it does simulate more simultaneous movement. 3-second rounds also eliminate the need for pedantic minutiae such as incorporating turning around in place as part of movement.
7) Incorporate more abstract units of positioning (i.e. engaged, a couple of steps, nearby, etc.), either as the default or as a modular component (preferably as a default) so as to make GURPS more friendly to pure Theatre of the Mind play.
8) A different method of incorporating more roleplay-oriented disadvantages rather than as a way to gain more character points. Perhaps something akin to new World of Darkness, where incorporating one is voluntary and provides a CP reward when used to complicate the character's life in a meaningful way.
9) An alternate skill advancement system where skill level increases after a certain number of meaningful applications (similar to Basic Roleplaying) instead of simply investing CP into them post-character creation. Something similar could work for other advantages or stats that function similar to skills.
I can go on and on, and this list is just stuff off the top of my head, as I don't currently have the 4e core rulebooks on hand.
Normally I don't like to go "why not game x instead", but a lot of your arguments (that I do agree with fully) seems to point to a game like Savage Worlds with its solid fairly incomplex core that can be expanded as you see fit.
I like Savage Worlds, but I find it harder to pull off some of the grittier game genres I like to play. Also find it harder to teach for some reason, but maybe it's because I'm not a veteran of the system.
@@1ShotJC I don't like Savage Worlds, it translates to exactly one kind of game regardless of the genre. You can't scaffold stories about politics or family drama, or commercial adventure with the rules. You can barely do exploration in it. It's pretty much just for puns and combat and even then your abilities are so swingy there's little sense of what your character's capabilities are. But it is the end product you're describing.
When I returned to TTRPGs I wanted to change the system I used (from WoD) so I started to read book after book, system after system! I even spent three months on GURPS to learn it just before switching to Savage Worlds. It can do most of the things GURPS does and is more streamlined. Needless to say it became my main system to GM.
@@1ShotJC SWADE has some options for gritty gameplay, these options are listed in a section called Setting Rules. The option Gritty Damage turns wounds into serious issues. A detective might suffer through whole session because of a grazed bullet. Moreover, these rules can also skew the game on the other direction. Depending on the genre you would like to emulate.
Great video, I wasn't sure how I felt about a 5th edition cause I just got a bunch of 4th edition books from the humble bundles, but yeah they do feel too intimidating to read sometimes. Also definitely subscribing for the Wrath of Khan cosplay alone.
Monster maroons ftw!
I picked up some of the 4th edition books in the past couple years, after not having explored GURPS since the original 3rd edition long ago. I initially bounced off the 4e core books. Yet after watching some vids about it, and realizing the best thing to do is start with the basics & worry about the rest when I feel like it or need to, it suddenly became easy. The basic rules are no biggie compared to many others I've learned. The vast majority of it is reference and character options which don't need to be memorized up front. Thankfully the 4e core books' layout is quite helpful for referencing. I think these points are the primary thing to know before starting; you only need to know the basics to start. So don't panic. 😄
While I agree with some of the opinions, it is the responsibility of the GM to restrict the options, and/or provide the basic required skills during character creation. Especially for one-shots.
It is. But other systems do the work for the GM, while GURPS requires A LOT of work form the GM before the game starts. If the goal is to increase the popularity of GURPS, it needs to attract GMs who don't want to do so much work.
Apologies for the threadnomancy, but this just appeared in my feed, and I was not aware of your channel until now.
First, have a sub.
Second, in my opinion, SJG won’t release a new edition of GURPS until they want to chase the “best ever RPG” crown, and make a serious attempt to dethrone D&D as the “go to” rpg.
The current system must still be popular, as it still sells - heck, I still buy 4th edition GURPS stuff from e23, to this day.
One of the things I do love about GURPS is the realism. It makes it so easy to convert other systems’ adventures, because of this. But I do agree that the basic rules need to be streamlined, to make it more accessible, and easier for new players to get into.
Personally, I love the crunch of GURPS. But I think simpler mechanics in the core rules, and moving all the “rocket science” to either a supplement at the back of the rules, or as an optional, highly recommended, expansion, would go a long way to making the system more attractive to new players.
Regarding the Advantages, Disadvantages, etc, I want them all in one place, so I don’t need to have multiple books open when creating characters.
Perhaps a new edition should consist of a free, “rules-lite” version, such as already exists, but focuses on character creation, and core mechanics, to explain the system and how it works, along with a short solo adventure, to demonstrate said mechanics, attributes, skills, and advantages. The main rules have expedited versions of the more complicated rules, with “recommended” crunchier rules in a chapter towards the end of the book. GMs can choose what better suits their group, and use them, accordingly.
That’s enough rambling for now.
Cheers,
I think that the MOST helpful tool for a GURPS adventure is going through the skill list and selecting the 20-60 skills and the advantages that are relevant to the campaign. All skills checks will default to one of these - and some skills could be grouped (have science instead of the individual fields, for example).
A book that did this for GMs for, say, the top 20 genres would be awesome. With custom character sheets for each!
I don't think I've read or played anything post 2nd Ed., and even at that point, I think we didn't use half the rules. I always found the game a bit antiseptic, like a college text book or a Star Trek TNG hallway set.
I didn't mind playing it, but it never inspired me to run. But holy smokes, did I love those sourcebooks. I still have a ton of them & consult them often.
I love that GURPS is infinitely hackable. In fact, I think it more than any other game system requires "house rules". If your group wants hard-core skills-based, heavy advantages/disadvantages, you can do that. For me, who tends towards solo RPG, I love that it can also play "GURPS Lite", allowing the narrative of the adventure bring out PC advantages and skills, etc. I tend to focus on the Basic Attributes and then modify as the situation calls for.
Feels like a lot of this would just be GURPS trying to be something that already exists. There are options for people that want simplified games with light mechanics. I'd rather GURPS lean into it's strengths, like it's insane amount of options for character creation. Talking about Templates taking away the best part of GURPS is how I feel when you talk about simplifying the Advantages.
For people that do want a really easy to play and run system that can work for any genre, I'd look at Fate.
Definitely agree. 3E black & white line art was so much better than that of 4th. The layout of 4th was also just really ugly.
I agree. 4th edition art is really repulsive to me. I do miss Dan Smith's line art and Jeff Koke's layout.
Considering the explosion of interest in the OSR, GURPS should really go all in on a cleaned-up and reimagined "The Fantasy Trip" in a kickstarter or something. I think there's room in the OSR for more classic systems that aren't built on B/X
...
They did this in 2018. It's called Legacy Edition.
@@Eron_the_Relentless To be honest, the Legacy edition feels like it was made for oldheads that knew about the game since the 1980's. I mean a total rebrand/reintroduction aimed at being in the same kind of conversation as OSE or Iron Falcon or DCC for players that like gritty fast paced osr style gaming, but aren't necessarily Grognards. I'd also like to see T&T do this, but that may not happen either.
One of the ideas that I had, and I think would work well with GURPS is actually a "GURPS CHAT GPT" that helps you figure everything out. Sounds crazy but you could be like "how much damage does my human PC take when they fall 13 meters" - and it would spit out the answer; would add tremendous speed to a truly simulationist system.
Have you checked out Google’s Notebook LM? You can feed your pdfs into it and it will basically just answer your questions exactly like you just described.
GURPS would be a lot more attractive if they could par and streamline it down to something more akin to Savage Worlds. (And, yes, I know about GURPS Lite, and that ain't it.)
I don't think I've ever seen a thread on any rpg forum I've been to where some poor innocent soul says they have this campaign idea and they're curious about maybe trying GURPS and a bunch of GURPSheads didn't show up and say of course you'll need the Basic Set and then at least two more books because said basic set is such a pain in the ass to work with to get what you want or flat out doesn't have enough in its eleventy billion pages to properly cover the thing you want to do.
Whole system needs to get blasted with the 80/20 rule. If they want it to be more appealing to a wider audience anyway.
Totally agree - 80-20 is the way to go, and throw everything else in other optional books. I laughed at your comment about GURPS fans, although I think it's more likely they just love to rabidly share all the ephemera of their favorite system. You can run a great fantasy game with just the Basic Set, but I almost always see people insist you absolutely need Low-Tech, Thaumatology, Martial Arts, and several pdf supplements too! :-)
Metric system would be great
Solid points, I especially agree with you on the second point regarding realism. In my opinion that obsession makes it hard to actually try to use it for any genre except for some weird perception of reality, that seems to me always like how nerd boys in the 90s thought the world works, and all the advice and special game mechanism is various sourcebooks won't change that. Together with the third point you make, regarding character creation, this always made characters in GURPS feel like the equivalent of an glass and steel skyscraper, but I prefer to have my character to feel more like a warm and cozy mansion. But I feel like those changes are too fundamental that they would really happen, and thus I doubt that 5th edition would be more to my taste. I would however love to be proven wrong and see a new edition that is more evocative in narrative oppotunities and not just this simulation game that, like I said, has a very different view on reality than I hold.
I love your “glass and steel” metaphor there.
💯 also new subscriber. Glad to have found your channel.
Just rewatched this and I agree with all of your points. 4e GURPS is such a dry, tough read that were I to finally get to run a GURPS campaign, I'd stick with 3e. The art was so much more evocative than 4e. Dan Smith's art is so weird and wonderful that it makes me want to try and stat out some of those concepts. I compare the core 4e book to reading 13th Age. That book is written in a much more casual way that is a real joy to read.
I always felt like the books needed more examples of play to really help new players and GMs learn the basics. They have the "How to Play GURPS" book that should really be incorporated into the main book.
Point 3, Gurps could benefit from looking at the aproaches of other "generic" systems way of helping character creation. For example M&M 3e had a book with a guided character creation and there was an overwhelming support by playes to include an expanded version in the core book. To me, the templates in gurps, as a solid block of text it can be hard to read and sometimes players like rolling dice to see what they get.
Sometimes I toss a coin to choose between a or b, it comes b yet I choose a, I use the throwing of the coin to inspect my feeling of my choices
My opinion is that players and game masters want to be given help, be guided without feeling constrained. Naturally, the desire for flexibilty and focus are going to be at odds with one another.
Another way to put it, gurps dosen't really need a new set of rules, but have another attempt to present the rules in a digestable manner while looking what other roleplay systems have done as of yet without copy and pasting
And an official virtual table top (VTT) support. Please, we need that! What they actieved in Fantasy Grounds Unity and Foundry was marvelous, but... Having an official source is way more better. I believe they can hire the developers from the community.
I hope the creators listen to you. Spot on.
Long time GURPS fan, it could use a 5th edition and some books that haven't been updated since 3rd edition like the Bestiaries, Mars and various historical books.
I love GURPS, but it's so crunchy. The customization is amazing and I loved being able to make whatever I wanted. But the rules are so complicated and the modifiers are so confusing sometimes it feels like anyone who WANTS to come into the game won't because it is so huge and complex when making a character.
That being said, I've been working on a Pathfinder and GURPS-inspired TTRPG that I think gets a strong middle ground.
Would love to see it when you are done!
GURPS is too bloated. I loved 1st/2nd Edition…it was a slick, clever game that got to the table easily and was a nice quick read. I’ve bought 3rd Edition books three times and 4th Edition twice along with Dungeon Fantasy twice as well…and not once have I got the game to the table. It’s sooooo boring to read. I’d prefer an approach more akin to Savage Worlds. I’d also like them to dump the way they do supplements. The Fantasy book for example needs to be a complete companion with a decent bestiary and not tied to the whole Banestorm stuff. Less essays about what is fantasy? And, more content to use at the table! Same with the other supplements like Gurps Space….it’s almost useless. The Traveller conversion books were better. The team behind Gurps are obsessed with too much detail and have such a dry writing style. SJG isn’t willing to take any financial risk with the game either and is playing things too safe and holding on to the game’s recent history which is laudable but will end in the systems slow decay into insignificance in the market…it’s pretty much already happened. Imagine what some fresh eyes could do with this game? Imagine if say…Free League got this? You’d get a streamlined core rules set, sensible, useable supplements, stunning art and production. All wrapped up in a well publicised Kickstarter that would no doubt go gangbusters. I don’t know but…I still like the early editions. I’ll never bother with Gurps if they don’t simplify it. YMMV
Fantasy (for 4th) isn't tied to Banestorm and is more of a 'this is how you create a fantasy game'. 4th is all about being a toolkit.
It was the explosive damage rules that went too far with 'realism' for me.
The thing I want is to get rid of the accountancy needed for Wealth and equipment. I think you can have an optional rule where the character has a chance to be able to buy things with a dice roll or turn out to have something at home that will suit their needs for the current emergency.
I don't know what you're trying to say with the stuff about templates.
One of the Pyramids (3-44 I think) has a system for rolling to afford things. I use it for some settings and it works great -- definitely check it out.
I think my main point about templates is that they take away from the freedom of GURPS character creation (basically they begin to look a lot like classes), and don't necessarily simplify for new players too much since to make choices about a template you have to understand the various abilities. Plus, they really only exist for a few genres.
@@1ShotJC If freedom of character creation is your aim then fine: take all of the books and all of the time your GM will give you. But if you're a beginner you don't have the system mastery that requires and you want to get started then be grateful that the GM can say to you: here's a framework you can make your own with a little tweaking. And I think you'll find that most new setting books have Templates because SJG knows how useful they are. (And yes, I remember that Pyramid article which struck me as a good first step but not there yet.)
Revisiting this after my latest GURPS session last night. I recently switched to GURPS 3e from 4e with some parts I liked about 4e thrown in (the more uniform skill progression namely) since I think the layout and simplicity are just so much better (not needing to flip to 3 or 4 different pages just to use a shotgun is great). We used Black Mine of Teihiihan from your website and had a blast. The biggest downside was character creation. We used the Random Characters section of 3e to generate stats and appearance, but I then let everyone buy skills and Adv. & Dis. normally. I wish I had just gone full random or just had them pick skills from that random table. It would have cut character creation down from an 45 minutes to like 15 max.
I never used the old 3E random characters but the fact that you got it down to 45 minutes ain’t bad at all! Glad you enjoyed the adventure too - hopefully no one dynamited themselves!
@@1ShotJC It was very close, I'll say that!
I know if like to see the Dr Kromms list of essential adventures skills included in the core book it’s something I’ve had to reference every time I’ve ever helped someone make a character.
Kromm ruined GURPS
I have thought about this. I think rather than a new edition, per se, what it needs is to evolve. Imagine a fully digital version (and I don't mean as a VTT) but as an engine with DLC/plugins. Imagine having the tools to spin up your own PDFs, compiling the rules you wish to use in each game you are running. Instead of players asking if they can have 360 degree vision, they would get hand outs with the lists of what they can use to build characters, and a PDF generated with all of the descriptions. This would simplify all of choices made and would make each individual game at the table become 'Powered by GURPS. The beauty is, books would come as additional modules to this and allow the PDFs to be updated again.
Easier cross referencing and look ups of rules would be very easy.
This is a clever, big idea. I think it would have to be a fantastic piece of well-produced, well-supported software to appeal to GMs and players alike (which I'm not sure if most tabletop companies can afford...). But if it had some good default modes for fantasy, action, scifi, etc, then the crazy customization could be reserved for the GMs creating something truly weird. Heck, even if GCS could be modified into a streamlined version, that would go a long way.
The problems with a new editions would be that i would need to wait another 20 years for all the books to come out again for 5th edition.
Yes i know there probably would be a conversion guide. Yes i know i can use the non crunchy stuff (I do used 3rd ed books occasionally)
but after being spoiled for choice of 200+ books in the GURPS 4th ed it would feel too much like playing a new Sims game without any Expansion packs and no pools.
(At least id have to wait until all the cores were covered, High-, Low-, Ultra-tech, Biotech or some other medicine related book, Powers, certainly, and some expanded Magic psionics and thaumatology)
Haha your Sims analogy is perfect - and I agree they would need at least the core books out quickly in any new edition.
> Streamlining
All of those physics-based math rules are a lot of what I like about GURPS. A lot of newer games give really unsatisfying gameplay because they overdo the simplification. I get that GURPS' detail might go a bit too far in the other direction if you're doing it all manually - but I don't see a reason you should have to do it all manually in 2023. IMO Give me GURPS v5 in mobile / desktop app form instead of a book, keep the math, and have it do the math automatically.
When selling GURPS to people, I reference that 4th ed was so good, it didn't need any further updates.
That said, BRING ON GURPS 5TH ED!!!
Hahaha! I'm a little mixed on the whole 20th anniversary of the same edition being celebrated. On the one hand that's impressive, on the other hand it really needed an update (even just a production upgrade) 5+ years ago.
I personally don't think gurps needs a 5th edition, more of a 4.5e/revised edition, the editorial direction in the basic set was something to be desired, not the worst but far from a game with as long as a legacy as gurps has. I also think SJG shoukd take a look at HERO 5E Revised as that has a few sectins dedicated to different generes like Cyberpunk, Fantasy & even Champions. They could still sell those lines but as expanded rules and chracter options and no one would feel the need to *buy* something like GURPS: High Tech just so they can play a military campaign. Have the simulationist rules front and center and leave realism to the supplement books imo. If there is going to be a 5e having it completely compatible with 4e and 3e splats is a must with minium conversions between the two.
The size of GURPS brought me and my group to a faster and simpler RPG system. Although I love the idea, that character development is not level-based.
I personally think that GURPS needs a rewriting to make rules clearer. A better GURPS should give options to simplify things but also keep sufficient detail. Just like Range modifiers. I don't feel like it should become a Savage worlds using D6, so simplifying isn't really a good point.
As for Skills, Advantages and Disvantages. They should be kept open and fully described, but some setting based lists should be provide somewhere. I've had some special good moments with some Disadvantages that you suggested as "outdated", somethings that wouldn't happen in another system.
Skills are a problem of their own. The Basic Set gives us an option that simplifies them. But I just think some of them should be better thought or grouped in a logical way that isn't sheer alphabetical order.
Regardless, I'd totally buy into the idea of a fifth edition with a few perks from new Systems and a little crunchiness from the typical GURPS experience.
If I could, I would give you a heart as well besides the thumb up! I don't get it why SJG pushes Fantasy Trip out of nostalgia with several kickstarters but doesn't do the same with GURPS. It would be a perfect indicator to see if there is a broader interest in an updated GURPS.
I'd like a Fifth edition just so I can get books. I have a small library of 1st-3rd edition books and the 3E Rev Basic rules. I wanted to collect the 4th edition books but some of them are expensive since the game is not in print anymore.
They definitely still print books - but if you miss the initial print runs of a book you might wait a while before the next wave of reprints.
#4 Ditch the painted-over Poser art and hire Dan Smith again.
100%. 3rd edition art was timeless, and made my imagination soar. 4th edition art makes me feel like I'm stuck in an office cubicle with spreadsheets in the 1990s.
This.
Dan Smith is good, but... Let's just say that there are other artists out there.
They really need to hire a competent art director and graphic designer. That's key.
@@allluckyseven There are reasons to consider Dan Smith "first among equals" when it comes to illustrating GURPS manuals.
His style is already evocative of GURPS.
His style is attractive and shows good draftsmanship.
His style, while graphically sparse, is nevertheless strongly graphic and prints well.
His style is suited to illustrating RPG books because while his illustrations are apt and iconic and he can convincingly draw anything from a stone-age savage to an ultra-high-tech cyberpunk, they are not so specifically detailed as to overpower the player's imagination. (That nearly all his illustrations for GURPS have been black-and-white is a large part of this.)
However, I certainly agree that a good art director/graphic designer is crucial and I also have no objection to other excellent) artists participating. Somehow, though, I don't see d computer graphics being a good solution to the demands of an RPG game book's illustrations, especially of characters.
I prefer rolling more six sided dice to handle more difficult checks. GURPS as I understand it uses a method. That requires more character points to raise each skill point for more difficult skills. Then, again more flexibility by having more attributes goes along better. When using more dice and roll under for success. It would require an entire total overhaul, thus a need for a new edition.
You know, I've thought about this very idea as a fun solve. DCCRPG does this fun thing where difficulty uses different dice, e.g., d16s for easy rolls, d24s for hard ones. Nice and easy. But with GURPS and its 3d6 bell curve, I was never able to make the game design math work. Adding another d6 is basically a -3 penalty. That works fine (though might be swingy), and now you need new critical hits/miss rules. Adding 2d6 gets super hard for most characters, since it's essentially a -7, and you'll now typically need a skill-18 to succeed.
And if I want to give a player a bonus, I can't take away a die, otherwise a base 2d6 roll will always succeed with most PC skill levels (and again, screws up critical hits/misses).
So you'd have to do something like rebase the whole system on 5d6, change the critical hit/miss rules, and then rescale all the attributes and skills. At that point, you'll lose all backwards compatibility, you're asking players to add lots more dice, and it's starting to feel too much like a new game.
Instead, I lean towards Mook's suggestions that you limit bonuses/penalties to a few levels of even numbers. So everything is either -2, -4, -6, or -8. You lose a little bit of granularity, but GMs can easily add that back in.
The only thing i agree on is absolutely the skills lists 😂
I hade my GM with me during creation but I was still like:
"Do i need basic math?"
"Do i need how to read?"
"Do i need to know how to Use a knife?"
Gurps is awesome, but it really need to move away from all them skills 😅 its ridiculous
Been thinking about rules and rule systems lately and there is sooo much out there. The market has always been saturated, now it will become more saturated. People don't know what they want anymore some like simple some like complicated. Even if you make the perfect system you will not toppled the giants in the industry.
Of course, if you don't want a simulationist game like GURPS, you could always not play GURPS and play Savage Worlds or even a story game!
I suppose you don't like GURPS Vehicles... my favorite GURPS book.
I deeply admire GURPS Vehicles and had some fun creating some vehicles with it (I’m an old-school Car Wars nerd) but truthfully I never really got much of its material to the actual table.
Agree and disagree with the streamlining. While the time it takes to create a character (and flipping through all the possibilities) is a speed bump for the system, the biggest draw for GURPS is that you could create any kind of character. For example, you can create a sentient weapon that cannot move of its own volition but can psychically control its wielder or a superhero with multiple personalities who has different powers for each personality.
My favorite GURPs character that I actually got to play with was a Necromancer who traveled various dimensions, eating the souls of evil-doers (he thought of it as recycling), and funding his travels with a literal skeleton crew running a fast food joint. But among the things that made it fantastic is that he literally HAD to eat the souls of sentient creatures as a game mechanic, not just flavor text on a generic disadvantage.
Without that expressiveness, it's OK for running one-shots in the same system... but otherwise it's just a worse version of fantasy/mechs/horror, etc than a game designed specifically for that purpose. And even as a generic game for running quick one-shots, I would probably reach for Fate which has a beautifully stream-lined system and can handle not only individual genres but crossovers as well. The main limitation of fate is that after a bit, characters begin to feel mechanically very similar (every ability boils down to either a +1 / etc on a skill or being able to replace the typical skill with another). The advantage of GURPs is that it has mechanically different abilities so that different characters play and feel differently.
Without the expressiveness in character design, it really doesn't compete with Fate which has a good, light-ish generic system, nor does it compete with heavier and/or more specific games in their genre.
However, the happy solution would be to offer a streamlined core book and extensions that allow you to delve into the meatier, more creative aspects of GURPs. I would probably actually do a "basic" section of the core book, with another section offering some of the fun and crazy possibilities so that people can get a sense of the expressive power of GURPS.
going to watch your vid before i comment, but gurps is an ol' n good system.
Do you think that there should be a 5th primary stat? I feel like INT is just a tad too heavy and wish there was a more social skill (delineating between intelligence in a math sense and intelligence in a language/art/empathy sense).
I’m not convinced there should be a fifth stat (it would make backwards compatibility rough) but I do think reaction rolls / social rules should be more like skill rolls vs their own subsystem.
It need not be horribly overhauled, just reorganized and rewritten for clarity and conciseness. Make it a modular set of rules where GM can pick and choose systems, don’t define anything as GURPS “Lite” as it turns off people to think they are doing a remedial rules-set.
3 years Ago I found your oneshot site, and now I found your youtube channel ^^. What will I find next? :D
Gurps is okay, but really, the Hero System is better in my opinion. If you like Gurps, you'll probably love the HERO System.
I have to agree. HERO System is great and my preference over GURPS.
One reason (not the only one) that I went away from Hero, prefer GURPS, and will never go back is the patchwork nature of Hero system. There are at least three different ways to count up damage* (usually requiring two different ways on a single damage roll, so you're actually counting the damage twice over), a minimum of two different ways to check for success (roll a target number or the CV/DCV formula), and other ways that the rules just don't quite come together. The game is a mess, and it has never been fixed through five subsequent editions.
GURPS has one way to roll for success, mostly one or at most two ways to roll for the effect of a success, and one way to roll for the effect of a failure (which is very similar to the ways of rolling for the effect of a success, and is not used most of the time anyway). Plus reaction rolls. It's really simple in concept, though like Hero it does have a number of special cases for special situations. As I said, though, unlike Hero it has a really simple and robust framework to build those special cases on.
My point being that it seems to me that things go the other way more: if you like Hero, you're likely to love GURPS, assuming you aren't coming to it with other things already in your head ("I played Hero first, so it's better", "GURPS is complicated", and all of that sort of thing).
*Ways to count up damage: total of dice, BODY total, total of dice times a STUN multiplier die. There might be others I'm not thinking of offhand. It has been a long while since I last played Hero.
I honestly feel like if I had started with HERO, I would have preferred it to GURPS. But having started with GURPS, HERO feels slightly off skew to me. But I respect the heck out of it!
i came looking for gurps for the realism
I don't have a problem with cleaning up the rules, like moving a lot of the underutilized advantages to a powers book, and keeping Characters slim, but I like options. I would not want to see them take 360 Vision out of the game completely, because once in a while, that's a cool power and options are good. Sidenote: GMs can limit anything they don't think is necessary. DF gets rid of a lot of options because they don't fit the style of the campaign, but the GM can let them in too. Play how you want.
Agree, no need to get rid of stuff, just organize it in a more logical manner for most players. The problem with GMs being subtractive with the entire system though is that it’s hard to present to players, short of printing out pdfs of the books and redacting them with a black sharpie.
@@1ShotJC A checklist of all of the rules that GMs could mark off would be helpful.
@@1ShotJC I think I saw an online tool to do just that at some point, but you shouldn't depend on that. Especially if is something made by a fan, because it may not be there when you most need it. Those things need to be better organized and separated into different books/PDFs in order to make it easier to add stuff that you want/allow in your game.
If your character lacks a certain skill, they can always roll vs a Default, like a related skill or just the attribute. Edit: Also, they should bring back Dan Smith to illustrate the books.
The only thing I really failed to adapt to GURPS was Dragon Ball Z, and I totally blame DBZ for that, I could theoretically make the characters in GURPS but the flow of the fights and development of the characters would never work in a similar way.
I've kind of had that same experience with powerful superheroes. The one second turns and various modifiers makes any MCU style fight really hard to replicate. Not impossible if you're willing to handwave a lot, but definitely difficult.
Didn't you used to have a Bunnies & Burrows adventure and an Alien adventure on your website? I can't find them anymore...
No… maybe you’re thinking of the review I did for Chariot of the Gods for Alien?
Regarding skills. Couldn't condensing skills be part of streamlining? i.e. Athletics covers climbing, running, jumping, swimming etc...
You could even have a generic master skill, Athletics, and under it group all "subskills" swimming, climbing, jumping etc that you can specialize in if you want to (and by specialize, I mean really out of the ordinary, like specializing in jumping if you character is out of school and part of the Jumping Olympics team).
Or Firearms, which covers basic shooting and weapons maintenance. Specialization could include a particular type of shooting without going to a particular model (Pistol/Revolver, Bolt Action Rifles, Automatic Weapons etc) or area of expertise beyond basic maintenance, like gunsmithing.
Streamlining for sure. I wouldn't even go as far as combining all athletics into one skill, but I would make sure each skill was reasonably wide -- Jumping, in your example, I agree is likely too specific for 99% of games. Also, it baffles me that something like Physician is a single skill, but Pilot is like 8 skills, and Engineer has a dozen or more. Dr. McCoy can be an amazing physician with 4 skills, while Scotty needs something like 15 skills to be a great engineer in GURPS. It's not outright broken... but it is weird and uneven.
I agree GURPS needs to dial back the realism and streamline more, particularly in the usefulness of skills. Trouble is, the usefulness of a skill depends on the genre and campaign. The separation between Body Language and Detect Lies might be useful in a police procedural, not so much in a dungeon crawler. The distinctions between Acting, Fast Talk, and Sex Appeal apply to a corporate infiltration but are too much for action movie. Individual Mechanic specialisations makes sense for a WWII military campaign but is too much for a planet hopping space opera.
This suggests wildcard skills but the GM has to define which ones exist and/or write them as well as for normal skills. This means he's writing a campaign or genre list. In the age of ubiquitous computing, 5th edition should have genre advantage/disadvantage/skill lists as free, supplemental PDFs, referring to the Basic Set Characters book.
I don't mind the quantity of skills for that exact reason, but there are definitely ones that I am willing to bet are too specific for any campaign. Applied Mathematics vs. Pure Mathematics? (One heliper for GMs might be suggested per-genre character sheets, which have recommended skills on them already)
Great video, but It didn't need a 4th edition. Can you do a video about that pidcast
I *just* got the basic set, if a 5e comes out I'm going to lose it lmao
Haha the curse of edition swaps. I don’t think you have anything to dread though.
GURPS like the SCIENCE! SWORD and SURVIVAL! skills should make a list of under 20 skills that can be the alternate simple skill list for when you just don't wanna deal with distinguishing 7+ types of medicine or what specific arbitrary type of melee weapon you're using when it's all swing for the soft bits.
just like create a book of GURPS genuinely LITE. not a book that's incomplete but 1 that is just simple since that would handle most games.
Sure I can love complicated rules at times like hit location, bleeding, intersectional theory of how my character is judged or whatever, but other times I want Anna Keys the cyberpunk to just shoot the future cops and use science to hack without looking up 3 tables.
The more I look at 4th edition more I think 3ed is better
I think mechanically 4th edition is better (no PD, higher costs for DX and ST were big improvements alone), but miss the simpler, less intense, presentation of 3rd.
YOu didn't talk about Limitations and Enhancements..... and the difference between Powers and Advantages and Talents --- that's confusing as heck! Run a GURPS Supers & Modern Ops game the guys said. it will be fun they said...
Hahaha yeah they get nuts real fast
Simplifying the rules is a current fad in gaming right now, but mark my words, things will come full circle, and people will want more complexity. I think the system is well thought out enough to answer any question that might arise during a game. However, the books would benefit greatly from a complete artwork overhaul. The system works great, so why change it.
Gaming trends definitely do come in cycles. But games also tend to get more elegant and streamlined - they don't go backwards there. Eg compare an average complex SPI 1970s wargame to a complex modern GMT game. Still quite complex and deep, but far more elegantly designed and streamlined.
No please I don't want to redo my whole collection.😂
I think a GURPS 4.5E would be the ideal for me. Streamline some of the more clunky stuff while keeping it 4e at it's core while also adding some of the best content from various supplements, pyramid articles and Kromm forum posts for 4e. Also for the love of god get some better art.
I have played 2 campains of Gurps and GMed one and over all im not a fan
I enjoy the concept you can play anything i think thats rellay cool
but now my problems
as a player
there is way to much choise to spend points on and then keeping track of what advantages and disdvantages you have bought has eveytime had me adding up at the end finding the guy i made is over the limit by a few points or even worse finding ouy mid game you have over or spent and now feel bad
I dont like that alot of the dvantages dont come up Light Sleeper i took for a mad scientists in a stemppunk game sleeping never came up in the game or his lack of sleep
half the skills you take wont come up take swiming and theres no water for miles take driving and eveything take place inside
when I GMed Gurps it almost broke my group
it was a super hero game
in my group we have a MINmaxer a rules lawyer, one player that finds luring new rules hard and one go with flow player "dancer that sounds like fun ill take that" I love all of them and they are grate to play with
so our minMAXer went digging for the most optimal build to make with his points the outher 3 went thought the book going that sounds cool ill take that
we endded up with black wideo that could shrink, a sort of nick furry type. plastic man crossed with wolverine and a unkillerable tank that could unleash a huge psychic blast with huge dice rolling involved and they could fly
how they spent their point i dont know all i rember is them sawing they where take the blast thing because the saw on a foram it was way more OP than something eles
anything that challged the 3 players the tank would take out with his psychic blast anything that could face the tank would wipe the floor with the outher 3
makeing matter worse when the player talked about how they keeped getting smoked or not feeling like they could do much in a fight our minMAXX would say something like "you could have made better heros" in a very dickish way
oh but you could have just .... how helpful i tired alot of stuff it just didnt work out
no one was having fun except one of us so we stopped a played something elese
i will never run gurps for our group becuse it brings out the worst in our group but if you enjoy it i wish your new 5 e all the best
Even though it sounds like your experience was like filling your eye sockets with bees - I agree with a lot of your points. Light Sleeper is such a weird disadvantage, crammed in there along with great ones, like Stubbornness and Overconfidence which almost always come in to play!
This example is exactly what I like about GURPS. I can make my PC however I want. I despise classes and subclasses, because they include filler, while excluding interesting things, or throw in just bizarre things. Some game designer telling me what a thief is, is asinine. That might be a thief in his world, but not in mine. Look at the Arcane Trickster in 5e, they get spells and everyone says that's cool, but enchantment and illusion? Why? What if I don't like those choices? If my GM is a rules lawyer, and most are, then I'm stuck with someone else's thief package, not mine.
I just want an easily run combat and/or magic system. Although I love GURPS, people aren't going to go through the mechanics of fighting for an hour every single action.
I think Sean Punch running a RUclips channel with a GURPS game would go a long way.
Every reason you give for a new edition is why I love the system now. All this simplify and streamline is why I hate 5E D&D and 2E Pathfinder.
Hopefully not including the art! But hey at the end of the day I really like 4E too, otherwise I wouldn't have written 30 adventures for it 😃
Character creation doesn't need to be streamlined. You either use templates or you swim into the beautiful sea of 300 pages of the first book. If your character doesn't end up having swim you roll the default, that's what defaults are for, not a big deal, if your GM is not a dick you'll have fun, your character doesn't have to be flawless (I would almost argue that it isn't supposed to be).
In 3rd edition you end up using way more books, like way waaaaay more. 4th has a good concise core, actually. It's sufficient for many styles of play.
Two things bother me about GURPS. The core shouldn't be split into two books, it's weird and annoying. Just give me a big chunky 500 pages hardback. I don't care if it's scary, it's part of the charm.
And the production value is bad. Yes. 100%
About the fifth point. I think GURPS is fun, I don't know what to say to justify this. "Shooting a zombie with a shotgun" is fun for me precisely because I get to throw a bunch of dice and add up the total.
I would (begrudgingly) tolerate a fifth edition if it had way better production value, a single huge core rulebook, and a fairly simple conversion path for 4th edition books
Agree to disagree on templates and GM guidelines. It feels like a lot of complaints you’re making about character creation, which I think are valid, are really coming from a place of a guy who likes to run one shots. The whole point of the generic system although it allows the use of one shots easily, is for the GM to pare down the number of options available to cater to a specific campaign. I do agree though that the basic book needs To be cut in half and a lot of excessive detail, like falling rules, or bleeding or whatever needs to be in other supplements
I’ve actually run a lot of long campaigns recently with GURPS, including porting Enemy Within, Drinax, and Darkening of Mirkwood. My group almost always has to “respec” their PCs several times before they fully understand what works and what doesn’t in GURPS. But I definitely agree with pushing stuff to other books!
@@1ShotJC As a GM, running a campaign in the system, every time I’ve had a problem with respec, It’s always my fault. Either I haven’t prepared enough templates or lenses or given The Players adequate guidance regarding genre, or the specifics of the campaign.