The Sage's Library: GURPS
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- Опубликовано: 2 июн 2022
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Voice actor Trevor Devall plays tabletop RPGs solo-style fulfilling the roles of both player and GM.
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Развлечения
"He freezes for a millisecond when launching 3d6" is a great GURPS quirk that gives you 1 character point
GURPS is a great system that can do almost anything. I remember a few years ago some friends of mine that only played DnD and WoD approached me to run a game, but they told me they didn’t think it would work. I asked why. They said some of them wanted to play something “like Shadowrun” and some wanted to play a Mad Max type of game. I just laughed and introduced them to GURPS.
Man I love GURPS, I almost have the whole collection. It can go from simple and cinematic, to nitty gritty detail. Of course I mostly use it to see if I can stat out various assorted characters, from Clint Eastwood, to Wolverine, to Skynet, rather than actually playing with it, but the process of doing so is very fun for me. It has absolutely ruined D&D for me, it just seems so much more complete in my opinion.
Haha on the 3d6, for me I LOVE the bell curve and totally dislike the 1d20. I almost always house rule a 2d10 to replace it. 3d6 is even better. My personal favorite is d100 and a table that I can adjust the probabilities on myself. For me it has the opposite effect of boring in play because if you just stand there and swing you're not likely to succeed, so you have to try stunts and tricks and use the environment and such to try and get an advantage.
If you'd like to pause for a minute instead of a just second you should try Tunnels & Trolls. It's fantastic if you love to roll a lot of dice (which I do) but not really conducive to a fast round. That being said, the round combines ALL of the characters actions, from both sides into only 2 opposing rolls, so in that way it really speeds things up. Very fun and different system.
For a system with a great Life Path system, I highly recommend MechWarrior (Third Edition). It really gets the creative juices flowing to have a great background, and it's just so fun to go through that system, rolling random characters.
If Super Heroes are your thing, I recommend Palladium Heroes Unlimited (revised 2nd edition). Once you get used to it, it is super fun to play, At least for me it was.
I really have to get into more solo RPing, there are so many good systems and ideas that can be used to run any game, in any genre, in any system.
Sorry for the wall of text. I love discussing old systems that I've played, and this series of yours is so fascinating to me.
Man I really relate too the whole "I mostly just see if I can stat out characters" thing. Pretty much ever since I read the core rule books of GURPS 4e I will inevitably think about how I would build such and such character in GURPS any time I watch some movie or play some crpg.
Can’t believe you have almost all of them. There are so many, and I commonly will see manuals for sale at $60-$80.
@@conmacmara2743 oh man, let me tell you about my comic collection... Pretty sure just my marvel books cost me more than the entire gurps system does ;)
In all seriousness, the price tag on GURPS is what keeps me away from it. So many great RPGs that you can get the whole experience for 20-60 bucks.
One of these days I'll pick it up, because it seems so cool, but i have other things I need to pay for, like food, and my mortgage.
I found that I liked Worlds without Numbers' bell curve approach. Skills use 2d6 but combat uses a d20. That makes combat chaotic but normal more mundane stuff more predictable.
I’d love to see a sages library on Traveller next!
Yes, please! Traveller is, in fact, my personal 'generic' system.
Seconded! :)
that would be great
Agree!
Very interested in Traveller as well! Also Starforged would also be something I'd love to watch you play!
The best thing is that everything is compatible... It's really the only way you can have a superhero, a wizard, a gunslinger, and an adventuring archaeologist all in the same party.
The best way to have truly 'mixed' games without having to jury-rig everything
I was originally super put off by what it'd heard about GURPS, and then I actually looked it up and read it and I like it a lot now, go figure :P If you explain it as a modular toolbox it makes sound much more appealing.
I have an “Intro to/Learning GURPS” series that might be helpful: ruclips.net/video/2ZMLhphjB-g/видео.html
@@chrisnormand You're doing a great job for GURPS as a teacher and ambassor of the system. I have been a playtester in a number of GURPS 4E books. Much appreciated!
@@PMandrekar Thanks! I try to spread the word.
GURPS is 100% my favorite system. As detailed or as wonky as you want.
I’m currently building a greyhawk world with the GURPS system
The combat issue, I think GURPS seeks another flavor.
It's true that attacking/defending in GURPS can seem a bit futile, however, a single hit can cripple or incapacitate the character.
In GURPS being careful matters. Unlike many systems out there, it's not combat where one opponent beats another until someone dies first.
GURPS, therefore, favors tactics. Attacking first makes a HUGE difference. Choosing your maneuver and strategy well is very useful. And, first of all, it's the difference between life and death.
Armor in GURPS is the difference between life and death. Perhaps more than almost all other systems. This makes the player have to choose between dodge/speed and armor.
I understand some people think this slowness is bad, but in real life and many other fantasy scenarios, taking a sword blow is a serious thing and should be avoided. Well-placed hits are rare, but they can be decisive. That's where tension and emotion come from.
YES! Precisely this!
My first RPG game, forever have a place in my heart. Moved on to FUDGE as a generic system now, lighter and as versatile, because I don't like learning a different system everytime I change from fantasy to sci fi or horror.
I ran GURPS campaigns for years. 3rd and 4th edition. It's neat to find someone else who also ran it and appreciates the system's flexibility. And you criticisms are fair. As we added more complexity to our games, the dice roll math got a little nutty - especially in some of the high powered campaigns like World of Darkness. Two vampires hitting each other for 45 minutes of game time to score exactly 2 hits to win (or lose) the fight was possible. I had to trim and prune certain things over the years to make it more streamlined. Still, it's my favorite system, and I am glad you covered it
Hey there! I'm a new GM to gurps, and I have theorized that using the quick contest mechanic for all attack and defense rolls would streamline combat.
This is because the attack roll doesn't have to succeed anymore, it only has to be better than the defense roll.
E.g. An attack failure of 1 vs. defense roll failure by 3 will still land because the defender just didn't raise their shield in time, or dodge fast enough
With your experience, do you believe this to be true?
P.S. I'm trying to invent a creative way to deal with ties, if you have any ideas on that too? ❤
Seeing a HârnMaster boxed set always brings a nostalgic tear to my eye. :-)
Thanks for talking about GURPS! A lot more people should talk about it, 'cause it's a great system!
I currently run both a Shadowrun as well as a Fantasy game in GURPS.
3d6 is not for everyone, granted. But two little comments from my side:
1. Modern environments like roll20 allow us to auto-add (and compare to target value) the 3d6 roll ... If your brain kloggs up when needing to add the dice, try using one of those 😉
3. The bell curve really comes down to modifiers. Players as well as GMs can use tactics (in combat) or situational setups to stack modifiers for or against them ... Instead of "boring" I'd rather characterize the bell curve as "predictable". When used wisely with the modifiers / tactics things aren't a random as in ... Not gonna say the hated D-Word 😂
One last point that should be stated. The greatest strength of GURPS (aside from its genericness) is it's modularity.
You kinda mentioned it. But let's be very clear: the core rules are about 10 page (4th edition). No matter which random optional rule you choose to add on top of this core, the game stays very well balanced. So the set of rules can grow with your and your groups level of comfort with the rules already in use.
i.e. If one of my players finds a cool rule they would fit his/her characters style, we'll add it. We discuss how it work outside the regular play session and then it can make it the PLAYERS obligation to know that particular rule's details.
The helps me as a GM to focus on storytelling...
Oh, can you tell I really enjoy GURPS? 🥰😂
I never thought it was boring, but I loved the ability to run a campaign that could be anything.... same character could slip through a gate from this world, into a fantasy, then into hell. Same rules still apply. This is is the game for the DM who wants to do everything.
Also I would play a game with you any day. :D
I can't really describe, in any meaningful way, how much I love this game system.
The bell curve issue isn’t really a problem IF you use maneuvers. For instance, if you have a really high skill, you can reduce your attack skill to ALSO reduce your opponent’s defense roll. Or you can “feint” an attack to set up your opponent up for a reduced defense roll on the next turn. Combat gets resolved pretty quickly that way-and the decision of which maneuvers to make adds strategy and excitement to combat.
You taught me how to play Ironsworn. Now I’m getting into gurps and you post about this too. I love your channel and I have big respect for everything you do. Thank you
You instantly became my favourite rpg youtuber
Regarding the bell curve making combats boring, the way the defenses and combat maneuvers work, two combatants of roughly equal skill will usually end up rolling with a target number in the middle of the curve to attack, and in the lower part of the curve to defend. There's a lot of strategy that goes into combat-related decisions, and you still get the excitement of swinginess in the math. The trouble is that the rules don't do a great job of highlighting the options that make this work.
I use the quick contest rule on basically everything that has 2 parties opposing each other. There is ALWAYS a winner.
Attack succeed by 2, but defense succeeded by 4; the attack is dodged, blocked, or parried.
Defense could succeed by 4, but attack succeeded by 7; the attack "blows through defenses"
I'm new to gurps still (only had the basic set for 6months). Could you go into slight more detail how gurps balances these combat situations? I can think of a hundred negative modifiers to inject when my players attack, but very few bonuses other than "hitting them from behind or above" or "they are distracted by your ally"
@@chillynewberg2652 Not modifiers so much as tactical options. So, all this assumes we're not using the approach you described (which is totally workable), just vanilla (but advanced) rules: You don't have to just attack. If you're significantly more skilled than the opponent, it's worth doing a feint--a contest of skills that hands them a penalty to defend next time of how much they lost by (if they lose). If you have a fencing weapon and are skilled, it's almost too easy to successfully disarm an opponent. If you are big and strong and heavy, the Slam option is well worth trying; you can knock the opponent down, letting you whack them while they're on the ground. If you do high damage, it may be worth attacking the enemy's shield to break it so they lose their Block and the shield's defensive bonus. Again, if you're designing a strong fighter it may be worth using a very heavy weapon, against which many enemy weapons will have a 1 in 3 chance of breaking every time they parry your attack. If you can concentrate attacks against one opponent--say, two people in front hitting the same one, and then a second line person behind them with a 2-hex reach weapon piling on--you can use up their better parry and block defences and force them to dodge, which doesn't succeed often. In 4th edition, there is the "deceptive attack", where you impose a -1 defence penalty for every -2 you take to your attack. For certain characters, although you have to be pretty careful with this, it can be worth trying to step in and grapple--if you can pull it off, and you have Wrestling or Judo, you can really mess someone up once you've gotten in close. And of course there's just "keep them busy while your wizard does something nasty". ;)
Finally! I've been hoping for you to cover GURPS!
It may involve a heck-ton of math, but the more I read it, the more intrigued I was!
But you don't roll three dice and then start applying modifiers. You apply modifiers to the target number and then roll only when you know what the target is. You don't modify the dice; you modify the target number.
Potatoe, poh-tah-toe ;)
@@MeMyselfandDieRPG Well, no. If you freeze because you are trying to juggle a target number AND a roll AND modifying that roll, you'll have less to worry about if you start with a target number, modify it (forgetting the original target number), and then roll and see merely whether it's equal to or less than. You only have to keep one number in mind, the effective skill.
The order in which you do these things makes a great deal of difference to the mental effort involved.
What a great intro! So engaged already! So so love your style (so curious about GURPS)
Perfect timing. I was looking at GURPS 3rd edition in a used bookstore and thought “I’ll wait until Trevor talks about it in the Sage’s Library”…and bam!
you want to go 4th, though. The differences are significant enough you want to go with 4e.
@@thekaxmax Maybe. I actually like certain things about 3rd better. My ideal would be somewhere in between. But the 3rd ed rulebook's layout is easier to use, frankly, and doesn't pour on quite as much stuff that you don't really need, so to start out with 3rd might be better. Ironic since 4th actually simplifies certain key mechanics, like by dumping PD, and some stuff around characteristic and skill costs, but the way the stuff around skills and advantages is presented is tough to work with.
I’ve grown out of GURPS, but it will always have a special place in my heart. I am at the moment planning a campaign in their default fantasy setting, Banestorm, which is one of my favorite game settings of all time. I won’t be using GURPS, mostly because the players I know would fight me on it, but as we all know, the beauty of GURPS is that you can port a huge amount of its material to any other game system.
I love your channel so far!
While 4th ed isn't to different from 3rd, the differences that are there are important.
Besides cutting off a lot of fat and implementing a lot of house or optional rules that everyone was already using, one of the biggest is a nice risk, reward system called deceptive attacks that allows high skilled fighters to take a penalty to their attack roll to lessen the active defense roll of their target. This represents you using your skill and experience to try throw off where your opponent thinks your attack is going to come from and trick them into defending a blow they think is coming one way while you attack another.
Another thing 4th did was add a setting to the Basic Set called Infinite Worlds. Think Stargate meets Sliders. Basically you're part of a team that gets sent into to explore other universes and the origination you're part of isn't afraid to recruit people they meet in them that have useful abilities. This lets you have a group the really shows GURPS strengths since the PC"s can play anything they can dream up that will fit in the power level you set allowing a group to consist of a sentient dinosaur, a wizard, a combat robot, and a shapeshifter or whatever else you can dream of.
But that's for bring some much needed attention to the system. Over on the forum I was talking about how what GURPS needs to a much larger presents on RUclips. People need to see why it's awesome and why it's players are Giga-chads.
I've been looking into picking up GURPS but I'm hesitant due to the availability of physical versions, especially the current version.
Most of what I've seen appears to be designed for 3e. How difficult is it to convert the supplements to 4e and are there tools to assist in doing this?
If it makes a difference, I'll be running games on Foundry VTT.
@@FreeFragUK Tools to convert, not that I know of but they did release a free PDF for converting characters from 3rd to 4th.
Outside of some point rebalancing for abilities and a more linear attribute pricing (meaning points totals are going to be different) the big changes are that:
HP is based on ST rather then HT.
ST is quadratic rather then linear, ST 20 is 4 × stronger then ST 10 while ST 14 is ~2× stronger. So on average characters are going to have lower ST levels, usually on par with what their HP would be in 3rd. Damage also remains roughly the same for a given ST however leading to a more realistic damage progression.
WILL, Per and other derived stats can be raised or lowered naturally without having to buy them as advantages.
Your death check thresholds are now based on your own base HP and not a base of 10 so larger creatures are naturally harder to kill after you drop them below 0 HP.
Skills have been reworked. No more half points and now your base skill is assumed to be how good you were in stressful situations and being in less stressful ones will give you a bonus (for example, flying a plane in combat uses your based Piloting skill but if you were just flying from one airport to another in peace you'll usually have at lest a +4).
There's more but that would take a deep dive though I'm more then willing to answer specific questions if needed. You can find me on Discord with the same username.
Now for foundry there is the officially unofficial 4th ed Play aid for Foundry by Chris Normand. Look up GURPS 4th Edition Game Aid (Unoffical). He has a RUclips channel that covers his play aid as well as GURPS in general and is what got me to get Foundry. You can find Chris in Discord as Nose66.
Here a link to the 3rd to 4th ed update PDF
www.sjgames.com/gurps/resources/4eupdate.pdf
And here's one for the Users Guide GURPS play aid PDF
docs.google.com/document/d/1NMBPt9KhA9aGG1_kZxyk8ncuOKhz9Z6o7vPS8JcjdWc/edit
That’s literally been my current heavily house ruled D&D game. Am I just olaying GURPS?
@@conmacmara2743 5e GMs really out here hacking their game to pieces just to play gurps
Hello! I use to play a lot of GURPS (on the tail end of 3rd and the first few years of 4th). Sadly I think generic systems have gone away (GURPS is still alive but only in PDF now) because there are *so many* RPGs now that it's hard to think of a genre where you can't just, well, get the RPG for it, instead of having to roll your own using a generic system. Of course, DIYers will always be DIYers, but that itch is possibly becoming more niche with newer gamers.
Anyway, about the bell curve and the boring combats: that's something my players and I actually liked. Well, the bell curve, I mean. Not the boring combats :D In fact, we didn't have boring combats because (drum roll) the bell curve makes combats more exciting! Yes. Let me explain.... so the bell curve doesn't just mean that most results will fall in a range of, say, 8 to 13. It also more importantly means that small and moderate bonuses or penalties (say, -3 to +3) will have *big* impact on people with low skills, and diminishing returns on people with high skills. So +3 from, I don't know, attacking by surprise, will be *very* good for someone with a mediocre or average combat skill (9 to 11), while a total expert (say, 16) won't see much difference... *unless* that expert is fighting *another* expert! And so you can see how the *same* modifier applied to two characters can actually lead to closing or widening the gap between skills. And this is why GURPS combat offers you plenty of options, like feinting or all-out-attack or telegraphic attacks and all that. Because, unlike a system with a flat probability curve, here it *does matter a lot*. So our combats ended up very dynamic, with my players taking risks here to get bonuses there and so on. Pro tip: if you can remember all the RAW optional rules for combat, good for you... otherwise, just let your players come up with random stuff and make up penalties and bonuses on the fly! They won't know the difference! Take ideas from Feng Shui or whatever. Let the players use the environment, special techniques, and so on, and give them heavily "risk vs reward" loaded modifiers, generally spanning across characters (helping a friend by tipping over a table) and turns (throwing sand in the character's eyes to attack at a bonus next round). So yeah, IMHO the bell curve made these roll modifiers (and therefore player creativity) worthwhile.
Cheers, and thanks for the video!
Nice summation. Makes sense :)
GURPS isn't just in PDF. The core 4e hardbacks are available and many of the splatbooks are print-on-demand. The game is still in print if you want them. It even looks like the core 3rd edition book is PoD now, although I don't know why you wouldn't just go 4th.
GURPs was incredibly innovative and awesome- however- we house ruled about half the rules. We dumped the bell curve and rolled a d20. We also did away with some of awful timewasters like axes taking two rounds to swing. There was also the hilarious tendency for people to be inspired by the first few entries of the skills, ads, and disads- so there were skads of Albino Accountant Acrobats who were bloodlusty berserkers! I was trained (briefly) as a tax examiner at the IRS and I heard that in that same class was Loyd Blankenship who worked on the infamous GURPs Cyberpunk. It was then that I realized that GURPs is basically a "Form 1040" tax return!
It does not take 2 turns to swing an Axe. It becomes unreadied which means you can't parry with it right after attacking. (It does prevent you from using extra attack though) You can ready the axe and attack with it all on your next turn. There is also a rule to spend an FP to automatically ready the Axe right after swinging it, though, not sure if that's in the base book or not.
@@patrickbuckley7259 Thanks for the clarification! Either I just misunderstood the rule back then or they fixed it in later editions. Cool game!
We used to run GURPS games when I was but a wee teenager as well. It's a great system to get into ..... I really enjoyed it. :)
That's so funny about your quirk with adding up 3d6 as well. I haven't heard anyone say that about 3d6 before. An interesting one. :)
Gurps was great. I played it in the 80s and my name is in the first Gurps Ultratech as they had fans send in gadget ideas. They accepted my epilepsy bomb if I remember correctly.
You are the one that is the reason behind the Warbler Grenade cool
My take on GURPS (and Hero System, for that matter) is that it presents the cutting edge ttrpg technology of the Eighties.
The late 80s...everyone wanted crunch. I feel like now crunch is a bad word.
I can still do everything more recent systems do in it. Some things just need a bit of preparation.
It is for me. It isn't fun and I rather do something fun. @@mschmidt2105
It most certainly doesn't. neither do other systems do what HS does. Games are just different. @@thekaxmax
@@eladhen2 Everyone falls in a different place in the crunch vs versemilatude scale, I guess.
Regarding brain lock vs. 3d6, try a d6+d12. You only increase the range by 1, 2-18 instead of 3-18, but now you're just adding 2 die results instead of 3? Not sure if it'll even impact the curve by much; you're still working with an average result and all.
The ability to add three dice is second-grade arithmetic, man, although I can kind of understand the brain-freeze thing. People's brains are all different.
With me, I guess I played dice games so much (especially stuff like Risk, which had many d6s) that I stopped even counting the pips. Instead, the shape formed by the pips just became numbers, for me.
So, when I see (for instance) pips in an "X" shape, my brain automatically registers that as "5," whereas if I see a a rectangle shape, my brain registers, "6" and a square is, "4." That makes the arithmetic part a lot easier.
The bell curve models what happens in the real world better (extreme outcomes -- whether extraordinarily good, or extraordinarily bad -- don't happen all that often), and that takes a bit more understanding -- say, 6th grade arithmetic -- but most people who have ever played a game of craps can usually handle an extra d6 without any trouble.
Taking out one of the dice flattens the curve in the middle. 3d6 has almost a 50% chance of rolling a 9, 10, 11, or 12, but 1d6 + 1d12 has only about a 33% chance of falling in the same range.
Loved how you show somthing like GURPS, people shit on without explain with good will, at least.
Very instructive and very entertaining, as always 🤩
Great presentation/ episode!!
This is probably stated somewhere else, but GURPS uses a 1 second combat round. Unlike other games where an attack roll represents several seconds of fighting and success means a good shot got in at some point in the round, in GURPS the attack roll represents "The" swing. What I am saying is that GURPS is granular. Second by second blow by blow.
My favorite part of the system is how little or much detail can be used in a game. I played games that were not much more than basic "Man to Man" (the precursor to GURPS) all the way through games using various supplements like GURPS Martial Arts and GURPS Swashbucklers to turn fights into highly detailed combat Roleplaying sessions.
Thanks for reading...
Re: Boring fights at 14:00. That is what Feinting is for, it allows a highly skilled person quickly defeat an ok fighter with a good defence.
That said, GURPS can allow very detailed combat resolution. And that detail comes with slower fights, then a game which does things fast and with less resolution.
For that reason, I actually went back to The Fantasy Trip. There is less detail, but combat is smoother and faster.
Warm regards, Rick.
Awesome! Thank you! Always fantastic to discover systems :D
Never played GURPS. But I have played the Hero System quite a bit, back in the day. The two systems seem fairly similar in alot of ways
I enjoy re-watching this video every so often. Trevor , I would love to see you do a comparison of GURPS vs SWADE vs Chaosium's BRP (if time permits, of course). 🍻🍻⚔🐲
I don't play GURPS, but I saw the GURPS Space book recommended as a general resource for SciFi games - and it is a fantastic book
I have 5 copies of it… 4 of them as box sets, because I’m a sad old man 😮. Harp is pretty good too. And also like you I didn’t run it properly. Still my all time favourite system though.
3d6 is the king of dice mechanics! Lol. I've not played GURPS, but I'm a HUGE fan of Hero System, and the skills system, at least, is very similar to what you described here. Hero's attack mechanics are a bit different, though, with a single roll derived from the combat values of both characters, so we never had much trouble with combats being wiffy. In fact, it was damn rare that a more "heroic" (Hero speak for low powered) game to often have combats come down to which side had the highest speed because the first round was also the last round
Love Gurps been playing since the Vampire the Masquerade days
To compare the boring combats from d&d and Gurps:
in d&d the fighters are chipping away at each other. Some atacks miss, some chip away more untill one of the opponents runs out of HP (or runs away)
in GURPS fighters are attacking and defending untill either someone rolls a crit on their attack or fails to defend once or twice.
Thats the raw basics. What is different is that in GURPS advanced options in combat (like say, deceptive attacks, that let you take a penalty to your attack, to make it harder to defend against your attack) that make it more uncertain and much more interesting. At least for me.
Also i think GURPS does good with the Tech level mechanic
Been playing GURPS since Man to Man as well! LOL
I would love to hear your opinion on Vampire the Masquerade, especially a comparison between "Masquerade" and "Requiem" as a sage's library episode.
My favourite system ever.
Love this series!
Three games that I never really got a chance to play, but always loved to read were:
- Tribe 8 (really any of Dream Pod 9's games)
- Fading Suns
- Dragonlance 5th Age (part of the SAGA system)
I'd love to hear if these are in your library and/or if you ever had a chance to play any.
OMG you actually made a VIDEO about the system?! I'm stopping my life at this very moment to watch it!!!
Very cool comments and I like how you are civilized in your critiques, hahaha. Yeah, the bell curve is a pro or a con, depending on what the person is looking for in an RPG. I am particularly fond of it because of the realistic thing of having a professional actually acting like one, haha. I feel that exceptional results should be... exceptional. I love to use different RPG dice, but the swinginess of the 1d20 actually throws me off, just like you were a bit thrown off by the predictability of the 3d6. I love surprise and challenge, but it's VERY frustrating when you have an experienced fighter being incapable of hitting for many turns just because.
Of course, you know all this. **However**, I think that there is a key element here that was not mentioned. In both systems, the players (and the GM) must understand the principles behind that mechanic and change their mindset. A sequence of hits/blocks can indeed be boring, just like randomly hoping to get over AC with a d20 and chip away at the enemy's HP. It's precisely BECAUSE of the bell curve and the enemy's chance of defending that GURPS encourages you to actually think about your attacks in a less repetitive way. The enemy's blocking too much? Well, let's decrease his chances of defending. Honestly, even if the fighters have the same levels and using a simplified version of the system, waiting until someone "slips" is very similar to hoping the d20 will "act your way". The difference is that combat can be much deadlier in GURPS so the whole mindset of entering combat is changed, because we feel our mortality in a much clearer way.
I think that this is probably why you like Savage Worlds (and I do too). The regular die+wild die gives some more chances for a hero to hit and it's not that swingy, but it doesn't require you to read 3d6 and deal with the bell curve either. I just wish that Savage Worlds had choices to make it grittier sometimes, because combat can also feel bland since most of the difference is narrative. I think that by far one the things that I love in GURPS is that a thief with a dagger is not just sneaky, but deadly. There is backstabbing in D&D, sure, but it's not the same thing. A small knife in the right place SHOULD be able to put a man down, just like a good arrow. I'm also a great fan of armor that actually absorbs damage instead of just making you harder to hit.
I really hope you can give this another try, especially since you're so fond of the system! You're a much more mature GM now and would work differently with the system. Using the Fantasy Trip would also be very fun to watch! If you go GURPS' way, I'd suggest using the 4th edition or Dungeon Fantasy RPG instead of the old 3rd edition rules. Having to learn what changed and what was rebalanced will help you look at the system in a new light as well, and who knows what ideas might surface!
I'm GMing a GURPS cyberpunk campaign right now and the party has "cyberninja" PC which can kill people with incredible ease. He finally found his match when I introduced his "ninja nemesis" and by attacking her he found that it would be hard to hit without taking chances like All-Out Attacks, etc. However, both of them use a type of flexible tacsuit that can absorb a LOT of damage, especially from cutting and piercing attacks. He managed to cause some damage by using a very mighty thrust attack, because impaling damage does not double the damage resistance, but this was only possible because of his cybernetic arm.
The fight ended on her fleeing because someone threw a grenade in their midst and now the ninja player is very excited to try grappling and other tactics in their next encounter. He started to think "what if I kick her in the knees" and things like that, that he hadn't thought before. Also, he agreed on us whipping out the delicious rules for Blunt Trauma when using flexible armor. Suddenly, punching, kicking and knee attacks sounded much more appealing. This will make the next showdown even more exciting! This is the type of fight that I've only ever witnessed in GURPS.
I have been running Gurps 3e since it came out. I looked at 4th and it seems to me like a completely different language. Close to getting all 230 setting books. Great video.
on the 3d6 thing, try using ones with numbers if you're using pips, or vice versa.
I only played GURPS a few times after the Traveller version was released but I have fond memories of it.
I know some people who run GURPS with a d20 or 2d10 exactly because they don't like the bell curve aspect of 3d6. To me, that's one of the main strengths the game. Also, you can throw in those situational bonus/penalties to bring a bit of more randomness to the mix, if you like.
But yeah, I agree with all you've said. I think it is a fantastic system. And you can play anything with it, which is amazing.
I think a fix for his problem with the 3D6 issue is somewhat simple, and somewhat complicated. What he described was the fact that the rules provide the same input every single time. And for most TTRPG system, a set of rules that are that "rules lite" (the term the community uses for systems with loose rules or not many of them) you tend to get bored of the play style.
The solution is, with GURPS due to it's modular nature, to add more rules or more moving parts. For example, if you're having problems with combat, you add more skill components. If you hate the block, attack, block, attack mechanic, then add an aim move, or add a dodge, or one of the other plethora of things. Or, make adventures that subvert that issue entirely. Instead of a generic slap-on-the-ass combat style, add in a trap or a roleplay requirement, or an environmental challenge, or have an NPC fighting with you and use GURPS' location based combat rules to make a strategy, or any other kind of encounter. As a GM, I hate adventures where you have one encounter at a time, and in my person experience and opinion (which should always be taken with a grain of salt, by the way), you should have more than one thing happening at a time, or your players will, and do, inevitably get bored.
But if you don't want to alter the adventure or if you don't want to add more things in, it could even be just as simple as adding more combat options, adding an ally, or doing other things that freshen up the gameplay experience or even add your own combat maneuvers. There is nothing wrong to homebrewing rules onto an established system.
But what do I know? Random on the internet over here. Definitely do what works best for you, and if this isn't what works best, then find what does. Some people, in spite of all this advice, still dislike the gameplay of this system, and that's alright too.
Disclaimer: I am a solo TTRPG player. When I play with people, I am usually exclusively the GM. My knowledge of this TTRPG system is based in that, and when I play alone, I often bend the rules a lot.
Great review. Thank you. I've known of GURPS for years but somehow only recently developed an interest. Now that I'm older, I'm suddenly somehow enthralled by it. :) It just seems amazing. If anyone out there ever needs a player for a GURPS game, please keep me in mind! :)
if you ever decide to run an online game i would love to play
Hi there... If your brain freezes at 3d6, here is a little house rule 'made in germany': Roll 2d10 for normal skill-roles and 1d20 in combat situations instead. That kills the "boring situtation" in the bellcurve, is faster and gives a little mor safety by kicking out so many freakrolls under normal circumstances.
(And yes, 19 and 20 were never meant to be reached in a GURPS dice throw, same goes for 1 and 2. But so what... It still works fine!)
And you mentioned Traveller - now I was looking for a Traveller review on your channel. Didn't find any. So wish and suggestion: Harnworld AND Traveller.
Best regards from northern Germany to this awesome channel.
Ooh, boy. If you had trouble adding 3d6 together, you should try a D6 System game, like West End Games' Star Wars. But I have suffered from a similar problem with adding dice together (yes, same thing, playing GURPS), so my preference is for systems where you count successes. You still get a bell curve, but you don't have to add different numbers each turn.
Now, regarding getting stuck in a tug of war, depending on how capable those characters are, defenses are harder to roll under than attacks... So you'll most likely fail while trying to defend a sword slash or something. And besides that, there are penalties from all sorts of things that can (and IMO should) be applied to the rolls.
GURPS is very near and dear to my heart, and is usually my go-to game when I want to use a setting of my own creation. I loved 3rd edition (mostly played 2nd back in the day), and like some of 4th, but didn't like that they took the everything-and-the-kitchen-sink approach to the current version. There's just too much stuff in those books.
do you know the old system TWERPS (The World's Easiest RP System)? It came in a small plastic bag with a little rule book and a mini d20. each one was genre-based rule set, and any given character had only one stat to use for everything. i had a few of those bitd. they were great fun.
New merch woohoo!
I prefer the Hero system over GURPS, I think its a little more robust and definitely handles higher power levels better. Both are pretty crunchy and both use 3d6 resolution.
A system that I really respect!
I own the boxed fantasy version of it, but I must admit I haven't attempted playing it yet. That box is awesome though, tons of content! Changing the subject, I'd love for Trevor to make a Sage's Library video about Traveller, that game's awesome.
Thanks to #geekgamers The Fantasy Trip was my gateway to the solo RPG world. I still have some fond memories of that first campaign, but I also remember getting bogged down in drawn out battles. However, I love the unique magic system and how a characters strength plays into how much they could cast.
I agree the magis system was far more interesting than the D&D spellbook concept. In Melee/TFT/GURPS, Magis Users are real sorcers (so to speak), while in D&D, it seems magic users are technicians. The memorization and forgetting of a spell makes no sense.
The problem outlined around the 14 minute mark, of combat slowing down as you hit, opponent defends, opponent hits, you defend etc. is real, although IMO it's less about the bell curve and more about the defender getting to, well, defend. But, it's not that huge for a couple of reasons.
First reason is that where in, say, D&D you have to hit a tough foe a whole bunch of times before they go down, in GURPS even dangerous opponents (well, humanoid ones) will go down in a couple of solid shots if you can get through. So the fight is about getting that shot through, not so much about adding up damage round by round. Second reason is that as you get skilled, both as a player and from advancing the character's skills and attributes, you have quite a few combat options that can both make the game more interesting just because you have them and give you ways past the enemy's defences, speeding things up. So if I have a high-skill fighter, I can start with a feint, giving a penalty to my opponent's next defence, letting me probably get through on the next attack, or I may be able to go for a disarm. If I have a big, high strength fighter I can do things like slam the opponent, likely knocking them down after which they'll be easy to whack. And so on. You can also gang up--people have limited defences, so if you all hit someone at once they will be reduced to dodging some of the attacks, which doesn't work as well. So there are quite a few tactics to get around the problem of defences stodging up the game. And as I say, I think just having those tactical options makes things interesting.
If you play GURPS with guns, the bell curve isn't really a problem, at least in theory. Since everyone is at least somewhat likely to hit and kill the other, tactics and positioning become incredibly important.
yes but in 2d6 system like Traveller you mostly get 7. because that is the most common combinations of numbers. 3d6 just makes that common humans with score of 10 have chance of 50% to do it.
It's funny that you mention that the combat being what threw you off. Because "attack, block, attack block" is pretty much how it goes IRL. Until one or the other opponent gets tired or makes a timing mistake. Meaning GURPS is accurately portraying dueling. :P
That's exactly why I have liked it so much more than the d20 systems. The d20 mixes hits, armor and dodging/parrying into a single role that hides the actioon. When people are comfortable with 3d6 combat and know their character stats well, it can go fast and feel more realistic.
Simple core rules, customize to taste for genre and realism, and once you and your players learn the system, you can run a completely different setting and dive right in. 4th ed. fixed the problem of endless boring fights between skilled warriors (Deceptive Attack rule), and the bell curve just makes so much sense because in the real world, normal things follow a "normal" distribution. I liked hearing your take on it, Sage.
D20 +3 is really not dependent on the modifier. A roll of 1-8 almost always ignores your modifier. Your roll of 9 -12 might need it. So that’s always 60% where it doesn’t matter. 3d6 is plenty swingy.
I keep looking along the bookshelves to see if the system that I played the most is there... and every time I look I can never find it. Would be interesting to find out that Trevor has played Earthdawn.
Wonderful Library session as always!
Alas, no… Earthdawn was one that passed me by, I’m afraid. And thanks!
I would like to see a review of Champions/hero system😊
Perhaps, in order to fix the heavy bell curve on the dice rolls, we could implement a combat advantage system. In which the last player to succeed at a hit, starting with whomever gets the biggest success difference compared to TN at the start, gets an extra d6 to roll and drop the least advantageous die?
Dunno, but something like that might speed up the ineffective back & forth chicanery in combat. I noticed WFRP 4e recently implemented a combat advantage mechanic due to similar bouts of ineffective back & forth in some past versions. Personally I prefer using a non-additive dice pool which looks for the highest number on a single one of the dice but I think, in this case, it's more due to the Defense rolls being able to nullify successful attacks.
I saw somewhere that the mechanic to prevent the "limbo of ineffective rolling" in WFRP 2nd edition was proper application of malus/bonus respectively (or whatever it's actually called) for a similar effect, but the rulebook didn't stress it hard enough
That's not really what it's about. The point is to stack modifiers in your favour. feints, using reach and forcing your opponent into move and attack etc.
Even with only basic combat rules (about 4 pages) there are so many tactical choices that experienced players will rarely see the back-and-forth in combat.
What the bell curve rather does is reduce randomness and make things more predictable.
@@metallsnubben - I recall there was just a +10 bonus in 1st edition WFRP if you caused damage last turn, or some qualifier like that. It was just a flat ten, however, and not WFRP4's potentially increasing scale on further repeated success.
@@NefariousKoel I had a skim through the combat section of the 2nd edition rules, but couldn't find anything that was an "obvious fit" for what I remembered (from a reddit comment long ago to be clear, haven't actually played it myself)
Like yeah the grievous injury table applies some nasty penalties but that's not what I'm after here
GURPS Goblins needs a mention. It's delightfully weird. Georgian Era London. Except, everyone's a goblin.
Prefer a bell curve by far, looking to implement a way of using this more
Been running the same GURPS Fantasy game, with some changes of players and editions, since 1992. It'd be cool if you could join--we play online--but time of day would be an issue; I'm in Australia.
me "GURPS oh yeah the Fallout game" lol i'm silly
The 3D6 bell curve is why I prefer percentile systems like RuneQuest, Mythras, and HarnMaster.
Lol, that's the exact reason I avoid linear random systems.
Yaaaay, Season 4 with Fantasy Trip (=
This isn't meant as a slight against Trevor at all, obviously he can only speak for what he has experience with, but if you're getting into GURPS, I would highly recommend using Fourth Edition. It has a much more active community, is better supported, and in my opinion is pretty much better (or at least no worse) in every way rules-wise. A lot of the old 3e supplements would still be useful, though! The very mechanical stuff like gear libraries are pretty much useless, but the the setting books are very high-quality and pretty system-agnostic, and even the rules-based stuff can often at least be used as a jumping-off point.
I also second the comment about it being great if we could see you play GURPS. I'm a little biased because I'd love to see more eyes on the game and grow the community, but I think it would be very entertaining to watch as well.
If only Steve Jackson Games hadn't decided that 4th Edition was going to be GURPSs last. The edition is old enough to join the army at this point.
@@soulcutterx13 All their money comes from Munchkin at this point. If it weren't for SJ himself wanting it to continue, they'd probably have completely stopped development a while ago, so I'll take what I can get.
@@soulcutterx13 While they might find enough to tinker with they could justify a 5th Edition, I don't think that's necessary, really.
The system works quite well for just about anything, and between ongoing online releases and the active community at the SJGames Forums, anybody can get any help they need (and, frequently, more than they could ever want...) to run any game in any genre that suits them.
@@thomashiggins9320 I think they just need a 4.5 edition. Rename Honesty and Truthfulness, type of stuff. There's a lot of little things in the edition that don't REALLY need a mathematical change, they just need a tune-up.
One exception, a pretty major change, skills should just be modifiers. It's ridiculous how often calls are made for IQ based Karate checks or whatever.
sorry man but 3e all the way
Hero Games is also any genre and 3d6 to succeed. The character creation system can be rather involved and complex. There is computer program to make character creation easier and faster. Do you have this system, and can you feature it in the near future?
Love this system, I think its the best published RPG ever created. Yes its crunchy, but I like crunchy.
Really loved that video! Super helpful too!
I have subscibed! >:3
GURPS did a DISC WORLD supplement. Now THAT is impressive.
On the 3d6. I like the bell curve myself, but I also think it may be a bit too strong with the 3d6. 2d10 would be just right for me. However, once players start learning the system, and do more off the wall stuff, fight's get a lot more interesting.
Never actually played a game of Gurps, but I still have my 3rd edition soft cover. Maybe one day...
For those of you with 3d6 Syndrome, just replace it with 1d20. It does make the rolls more challenging, but what game is fun when that bell curve averages out everything? Also, I was a big fan of TFT, Melee, Wizard when they first came out - so glad to see that Steve Jakcson got the rights back to this great, simple game system.
I feel ya about the rolling 3d6 thing as well! I’m experimenting with using different dice, particularly 1d20, but 2d10 could work also. The probability is totally different (along with the distribution) but I don’t care about that stuff… and it’s kinda the point of changing it up!
Also experimenting with blackjack style where you roll under but roll high, but haven’t given that as much thought… I do love blackjack though! 😉
I was a big TFT fan; and was so disappointed when they killed it and switched to GURPS that I never really got into it. I bought the first edition rules and some of the supplements, but it never really caught on, and so that was that. I would be happy to play in your GURPS campaign.
SJ sent me the re-released TFT box set. I’d happily run that! :)
@@MeMyselfandDieRPG Count me in. When do we start?
I think you missed the idea behind combat. There are a lot of tactics that can be used to change the odds in attacking. Gives fighters more options than most games.
To me, GURPS was always second to Hero System (Champions). It's point buy system and endless list of abilities and skills won me over. Don't get me wrong. I used GURPS books as source material for every other game I played.
Great accents, must be a wild GM.
I bought (and still own) a ton of GURPS stuff. I loved their sourcebooks. I've only played a little of it, and I don't think I ever ended up actually running it (I may have sometime in the late 80s, but I don't remember). I found the system to be...antiseptic? If that makes sense. I loved the idea of advantages & disadvantages (and have loved other games that use similar things, like Ars Magica). But somehow in being a system that tried to be good for everything, it didn't really work that well for anything. Like, every type of game GURPS could do had a specific game that already did it better.
Still, even after doing some major culling of my collection, I still have two thirds of a shelf of GURPS sourcebooks, so that says something.
Funny you mention the combat round draw/stalemate issue, as I've found that to be a frustrating aspect of watching the Dominion combat in MMD. I much prefer when a system provides for a resolution or produces some change in circumstance when the dice are rolled, particularly if there's a lot of fiddly bits such as in Dominion combat. That's where the PbtA games shine for me with their three categories of move outcomes which always carry the action forward.
Really nice to hear your opinions on games, so no need to worry about saying your own opions in your own video 😄😉 Like these videos, but would like it if there was a few "cut aways" now and then, so its no so much just "talking head" style all the time 😁
Oi mate, you might've drawn me into ttrpg GMing. Who knows what sort of monster I'll become 🧐
Alternity 1st ed is a cool game, wonder if you played it back in the day? T'was the last game published by old TSR, and my very first sci-fi game :)
Missed that one, I’m afraid :( I had moved on from TSR long before - I even missed the entirety of AD&D 2e.
You ever look into any OSR stuff, like Old School Essentials? It's supposed to be like the original DnD but polished and easier to understand.
I totally understand your 3d6 issues. Adding 3d6 is more than twice as much work as adding 2d6, and it will also take muuuch longer until your brain shortcuts the math with pattern recognition. I don't have to add 2 and 4 anymore to know it is 6, my brain replaces the visual with the result. The first "addition" when adding 3 dice can benefit from that, but when I have to add another 3 to the 2+4 my brain needs to "keep the 6 in mind" and add 3, which simply is much more work to process. It is not "difficult", but simply takes a lot more time.
The strong bell curve thing is what annoyed me when I tried Fudge - I haven't played Fate yet, but I think the idea of offsetting that with the Fate point meta-game is an interesting.
I really like GURPS but I definitely wouldn't use it for a lot of stuff, I feel like epic fantasy wouldn't be as good in it, so I go for Pathfinder 2e for that, for example. But I still dream that I'll run my perfect GURPS Fallout campaign.
Ok, calling you out. I’m in to play GURPS. 😁👍🏼
When do we meet?
What book is between Twilight 2000 and Vaesen?
Looks like mutant: year zero
It's Mutant Year Zero, also from Free League.