Who Caused the Doom of Valyria?
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 20 апр 2023
- In Deep Geek - Insight and intelligent discussion on Lord of the Rings, Game of Thrones, The Witcher and more.
For merch, audiobooks, and all things In Deep Geek, explore my website - www.indeepgeek.com
Join me on Patreon - / indeepgeek
Follow me on Twitter - @indeepgeek
Follow me on Instagram - indeepgeekofficial
Follow me on Facebook - / indeepgeek
For more merch - shop.spreadshirt.com/indeepgeek
Or ... shop.spreadshirt.co.uk/indeep...
The Winds of Winter playlist - • Video
Robert's Rebellion / Tower of Joy playlist - • Video
My audiobook channel: The Well Told Tale - / thewelltoldtale
This video was brought to you with support from my amazing Patreon community - special thanks to Stephanie Frederick, Joshua Clark, Maura Lee, Rabbi Rob Thomas, Brooke Geer Person, Josh Bielemeier, Jane, Vance, Amy Southerland, Callie Summers, June Coates, Ariel Winchester, Sonia Rangel, Edward Ryan, Stephanie B, Coleen, Ben Androvich, Nana L, Brennan Barnes, Ivanka Hainzl, Howland’s Little Sister, Charis Messalina de Valence, Donna Daley, Cade Norman, Murray D, Lily Mellon, NOscar, Rick Hoppe, Leathery Wings, James Pisano, Bridget Boyle, TheStarkInWinterfell, Ellemcee, Alannah Prestayn of Braavos, Raymond Joy, Jonathan Harrison, Jared, Petyr Pebble, Hilal Yildiz, Jason Mauleon Rosario, Milton Christopher Appling, Edward Ennett, Katy Smith, 26Artgirl, Karen Thomas, Rickon, Cathrine Furseth, James Fitzpatrick, Doug Hughes, lawnduck20, Perseffanie, Emily Mole, Lady Dane, The Late Escapist, Natalie Donald, J. Gregory Henderson, Andrew Warnock, whalawitsa, Luna Cascade, Dan MacKay, Lady of Summer, Johnny Targs, Milla, Ashton DeAngrlo, Kevin Warner, TomCritoph, Julie Bernard, Demps 2002, St Jamalamington, Bear, Carolina Kley, Susan Lonergan, Bo Riley, Brad Paquin, Lyle Hammac, Taryn Giles, Alex Butter, Pam Peterson, Bettina Charlotte Nielsen, T boz, Angela Marie Young, Sarah Awesomesauce, James Horner, Stephanie Erickson, KaliKo_Jack, SeaGreenMango, GeorgeRRTolkien, Antihero Association, Richard Woodard, Jenny Smith, Caiden Timmons, Britt, ThatVBGuy, Tyler Barnhart, Daiwai, John H. Austin, Jr, NikFromNJ, Ty Farnsworth, Beesman, Mario Murray, EJ, Willow Button, Julia Kendall, Jonny Ceriani, Mary Frances Angelini, Emma Sheiman, Matthew Foley, Candide, Joseph Jones, Christine Denny, Nicholas Willey, Julien Dubois, Leland, JackieO, Max Kingdom, Tricia Brady, Julian Messner, Lahiru Dinálankára, LiK, Simen Dalstein, Scott Maraldo, Shelley J, Wildling Chef, April Cote, Karen Wennerlind, Nathan Drumm, Lauren Peterson, Martin Sjöstrand, Mae, Matt (Man of War) Rubin, Kristen H, Jimmy and Taylor Smith.
Affiliate Links - (buying books from our Bookshop.org shop supports this channel and local bookshops at no extra cost to you.)
Books for fans of A Song of Ice and Fire:
uk.bookshop.org/lists/a-song-...
Other books we love:
uk.bookshop.org/shop/indeepgeek
Thanks for watching! (All pictures are used under fair use copyright laws. If any credits are missing or incorrect, please PM me for a credit!) 
Развлечения
So ironic that the Lannisters went through so much trouble to get Brightroar, and possibly led to the extinction of Valyria, just to lose it.
Honestly, it's the most Lannister thing to ever happen.
It ended up lost in old valyria 🤣
Yeah, nah Drogon found Brightroar whilst scouting around the ruins and once Danaerys is resurrected (erm presumably in Volantis? or Ashai?) Drogon will fly her back to Valeria and Dany shall retrieve Brightroar!😜
I was going to say Dany's not dead what are you talking about...and then I remembered the show
@@Hochspitz bro...y tho?
Now I need an Office-style spin-off about fire mages working shifts keeping volcanoes quiet.
If this theory is true then it's a nice paradox which kinds of reminds me the prophecy related to Oedipus. Meaning that trying to evade the prophecy only leads to its fulfillment.
If the Valyrians have just sold the Lannister a Valyrian steel blade, everything would've been alright. But the Valyrians were afraid of a doom caused by Lannister gold so they refused. Instead the Lannisters used their gold to buy the blade from the Maesters who now had enough money to pay the Faceless Men to kill the fire mages which led to Valyria's doom.
That's how most prophecies work. If you ignore them, they don't happen. By trying to prevent them, you bring them about. Harry Potter is the same way.
@@ImReverseGiraffe Most of the great stories/fables throughout history are themed around tragic ironies.
This is because human history itself is one full of ironies.
Martin is well aware of this and so his universe is heavily inspired by Tolkien's writings, a few ancient stories and actual human history, itself.
This ^
My thoughts exactly. Gold is just a tool they could have used that tool, its power lies by the hands who hold it.
@@ImReverseGiraffe Somerset Maugham's _The Appointment in Samarra_ is another famous example.
Tywin sacking King's Landing and (indirectly) killing Aerys II is also pretty symbolic of something related to Lannisters destroying anything Valryia related.
Or Jaime's golden-hilted sword slicing open Aerys' neck.
@@arianweneverett3910 Yeah the prophecy is clearly about Jaime in his golden armor killing Aerys II with his golden sword. Lannister men everywhere, the dragon skulls around them...
It would also point a LOT to Tyrion, who has a green and black eye (both factions of the Taergaryen family) and him telling the other Taergaryen kid to just GO to Westeros just to fuck around and also not working for Dany's interest but for his own.
I think there's another way to look at this from the same theory: prophesy killed Varyria. Avoiding the prophesy of lanister gold put lanister gold where it needed to be to cause the doom. And the targaryens fleeing a prophesy of doom put them in a place to appear a threat to westeros, motivating the maesters to cause the doom. Prophesies only coming true through people trying to avert them is a very popular theme in fantasy writing, so I think that angle also supports this theory.
That would also go with what Marwen said about prophecy!
'Prophesy' is not a reason for why Valyeria was destroyed.... A prophesy is just a vision someone had of the future, and they relied it. That future will happen whether or not they try to avoid it.
They saw a future of which gold would destroy them, likely in symbolic visions. Thus, it will come to pass, but the prophecy isn't the reason why. This is like saying me witnessing a car accident is what caused the car accident
@@pyropulseIXXI No, it's like saying you having a vision of a car accident caused you to run into the street, for example, to try to stop it, only to cause cars to swerve to avoid you, causing the car accident you saw
Had you not seen the vision, it wouldn't have caused you to act the way you did, preventing the accident.
Similarly, had the prophecies of the Doom of Valayria not existed, the Valayrians wouldn't have avoided Lannister gold and the Targaeryans wouldn't have gone to Dragonstone, preventing the Maesters from having the motive or the means for enacting the Doom.
@@flameracer93 If you actually think of these things, knowing the prophecy still isn't the cause; the 'cause' is in the entire time line.
Thus, it is self-referential. This means the entire thing is the 'cause,' not the prophecy.
The prophecy is not the cause, despite what your limiting reasoning has lead you to believe.
The prophecy simply cannot not be made, because that is part of the timeline, embedded into it. Saying 'if the prophecy wasn't made, this wouldn't have happened." is like saying "if the entire timeline was different, then this wouldn't have happened." It is a simple non sequitur; the prophecy is not the cause; the cause is whatever caused the timeline to be that way in the first place, which is beyond human comprehension
@@pyropulseIXXI The whole point of prophecy is a literary one, bud. Prophecies matter TO US, because we can watch the irony develop around what people believe will happen vs what actually does. You're splitting a hair over whether a person's actions cause something or whether the prophecy did, but it's their BELIEF in it that precipitates their actions, so it's the same frigging thing in the end. It ultimately doesn't matter in-world because prophecies are for us, we are supposed to observe and appreciate the function of prophecy as a cultural example of how power resides where one thinks it resides. It's a MAJOR theme of the series.
I wonder if Viserys saw a glimpse of Valyria through Balerion’s memories.
How?
It would explain why he was able to recreate the design in hotd
@@barraganimperator4420
Im just as lost...
@Wildlands Of Lumios
Have they shown this in house of the dragon?
@@damenwhelan3236 total tinfoil
It's always a safe bet to blame Bloodraven even if it happened hundreds of years before his birth. Edit : If Summerhall is anything to go by perhaps the Targs CAUSED the doom rather than foretold it.
Nah Bloodraven’s only real goal was to share feet pics across space and time with his fellow greenseer bros on the wierwood net.
@@Matt-xc6sp he fleed north of the wall for Children of the forest feet
@@Matt-xc6sphe was building his onlyfeet portfolio
You know some of us are just tryna enjoy our dragon show, we don’t need this filth in such a civilized comments section smh 😂😂
@@dislikebutton8789 convince grrm to release winds of winter or else the community with go more schizophrenic every day..
“One often meets his destiny on the road he takes to avoid it.”
I've had a theory for a long time, which is very similar to this except the Lannisters went to the only Valyrian trading post in Westeros, Dragonstone to liaise with Aenar Targaryen. It was Aenar who arranged for Brightroar to be made and then paid the faceless men. I'm sure there's something that says the Targayens grew rich from Westeros-Essos trading shortly after settling on Dragonstone.
Fits the Cui Bono rule.
this also makes sense
Meh
This is my thought too. I found it so unlikely that the Targaryens would give up everything on the basis of one dreamer. Dreams like this have typically been disbelieved, dismissed or misunderstood. But no, in this one case our guy ups sticks and moves the entire family away from the richest and most advanced city on Planetos, gives up their place in society and move to a rock on the outskirts on the basis of *a dream*?!? No , it's too convenient. I suspect that while the dream might have been real, the idea of the Targs relying on that dream was either a useful excuse at the time or a story told after the fact.
More likely they were like the Manderlys and had to flee for some political reason - we know that Valyrian society was turbulent like that, and that although the Targs were dragonlords they were on the lower rungs. Isn't it more likely that they offended the wrong person/family and had to flee? And if that's the case, wouldn't they want revenge? Especially if it meant that they would subsequently become the last and greatest dragonlord family at a stroke?
Fire and blood indeed.
@@AlextheSuperfly Problem: they were so much better off away than in Valyria.
I'm really hoping we get a Valyria show in the next few years even though it'll no doubt cost a shit ton, I genuinely think it could end up being even more of a success than HOTD and GOT combined. Politics, war, dragons, Faceless Men, fire/blood magic, new locations, rich parallels to ancient history, etc.
HotD sucks, GoT was vastly superior.... except for the ending. GoT ending was one of the worst in all of TV history
@@pyropulseIXXI Yeah, HotD had a strong start with great actors, but it went downhill real quick. We just can’t have good cinema these days.
@@arunakoyanbron8927hotd was really good imo. Wheres the Problem?
I freakin loved hotd
To be honest I would rather see Melnibone and Imrryr depicted first.
We keep getting things inspired by it then the actual project gets dropped for fear of being labeled the copy.
I love the theory and it makes the most sense, but the only hiccup to me is the price. Littlefinger says that the price in gold to kill a princess would buy you a small army of sellswords. The Lannister gold seems like a negligible price to pay to indirectly bring down the greatest civilization in the history of their world. Unless the Faceless Men did it for a significantly reduced price out of their hatred of slavery and slavers - in which case, why not do it earlier?
What about the house of black and white.... do we know the time frame it was established....
Gold could have been used to construct it or improve it to what it is currently in the books.
Perhaps it wasn't just a monetary payment but a means to expand thier capability which would all be in service to the God of Death.
Sacrificing an empire to your god is pretty metal... but also radical of which the faceless are.
It could be ideologically similar to league of shadows.
Perhaps they deemed valaria stagnant or to far gone in who knows what manner so decided to give it all to death for a rebalance of things so to speak.
The gold was just a means to realise this.
They would only have to pay for the killing of the firemages
You misunderstand the Faceless men completely, they weren't slave liberators John Brown style.
They've saw death as the gift of their god, the end of suffering upon this world.
Valyrians were destroyers, they destroyed Old Ghis that nobody in world liked, then they've turned on Honorable but backward Andalos,
and finally upon the gentle culture of the Rhoyne that once embraced the Valyrians.
We see the Valyrian mask slip more and more revealing them for what they were - fascist conquerors, they were unable and unwilling to
change or connect with those they deemed beneath them. Volantis is one such example that even non-dragonlord Valyrians found themselves
unwelcomed in Valyria proper.
I can see the Faceless men making a HUGE discount to the Maesters given that bolt have foresight to see that Westeros or Braavos
would be the next to be ravaged given how the Braavosi never payed for their slave Ancestors.
@@bgcvetan Dude stop calling everyone fascist, they were fictional dragonriding nobles in a medieval world
@@marthvader14 Well poor choice of word given that it's loaded nowdays, they were far closer to Nazis (National Socialists) given the practice of preserving blood purity and were into Eugenics, and clearly disliked everyone that wasn't them with each circle Dragonlords > Regular Valyrians > Everyone else. being more tolerable to others.
The manner in which you deliver your content is second to none. So well thought out. So articulate.
I appreciate it greatly.
Theses videos are better than the books and House of the Dragon.
Agreed.
Not only is the explanation great, but your visuals and editing are on point Robert! Another excellently crafted video
If you look at the Night's Watch and the Wall as a parallel, there may be a clue to the hidden story. The Night's Watch was formed with the primary mission of holding back the Others and their wights, but they've acquired a secondary mission of fighting the Wildlings and keeping them out of the Seven Kingdoms. Over the course of the books, we've seen those two missions come into conflict, and the Night's Watch has been forced to compromise their acquired secondary mission to stay true to their primary mission. A lot of people, both in the Watch and elsewhere, don't really value that primary mission anymore, or even believe the threat being held back really exists anymore. Cersei and other small-minded politicians in King's Landing think if the Night's Watch failed completely, it'd be to their advantage, since it'd mean the people they've turned into enemies in the North would have to fight someone else and be weakened doing so. If the Valyrian firemages were similarly preoccupied with something else to the detriment of keeping the volcanoes from erupting, and if someone else saw benefit in them failing at either or both of those, that someone else might hire the Faceless Men to bring about the deaths of the firemages in order to achieve a different goal. Then the Doom could've been the result of similarly short-sighted and selfish thinking.
I like this. A small neglected band of Firemages is easy to assasinate and has nice parallels with the small order of Night's Watch.
Also, Jaqen Hagar is in the Maesters Citadel, perhaps to set off a new Apocalypse with a special item, this time of Ice and Death from the North by collapsing the Wall.
So maybe Daenys the Dreamer is a firemage that was so stressed from the job, she dreamt of the Doom, her dad believes it but needs to secure some place and trade for a post-Valyria reality, move there, and Daenys lived stress-free ever after, but forgot to tell a 100-year spell for dissipating volcanic force to the next firemages. Then just as Daenys, 121 years old, frail, and knitting, remembers her old past, she remembered that she kept the spell scroll in a cabinet at the firemage office.
"Oh my, I should tell someone about it!"
But then she hears the mighty rumble of Valyria kablooing.
"Never mind."
@baabaaer Maybe Daenys didn't dream of the doom so much as she had the good sense to not be complacent about it. If she was a Firemage, then she would have inside knowledge about how fragile and corrupt the Firemage's as an organization had become.
Also, curious how we hear of Daenys as a daughter, but never hear of her husband? Surely the daughter of a minor dragon lord would have been married to some scion of another minor dragon lord? Unless of course the Firemages were an order of mostly female sorcerers who tended to the flames of Valyria. This would be similiar to the Vestal Virgins of Rome who tended to the sacred flames in Rome's main temples and thus were believed to ensure good fortune and security for the city. A small neglected ignored and divided band of mostly female fire mages would be even easier to eliminate than a large dedicated sophisticated institution.
The main question that should be asked is, “Who would benefit most from the fall of Valyria?” Bravos!!
Thematically it would make sense if the Valyrians themselves caused their own doom in some way through greed or pride or recklessness. Similar to Numenor in JRR Tolkien's works, or the Atlantis myth in our world where Tolkien based Numenor on.
Then again, GRRM often does not play tropes straight.
Not an in deep geek, just a passer-by with limited knowledge who is interested.
Wouldn't their reluctance to make a single sword based on a (seemingly self-fullfilling) prophecy be a type of hubris? Similar to what I've seen in the house of dragon show, where king Viserys is so cocksure of a prophecy and even when changing his interpretation of it still reengages in a doubtless faith of it. It's as if it's saying our attempts to interpret things out of context and stake our entire life's, or societies position and future on those interpretations can lead to our doom.
@@celphdfined9298 That could be a way to play it for George, a LOT of bad things happen in Westeros due to individuals' fanatical belief in their personal interpretation of a 'prophecy'. Rhaegar caused Robert's Rebellion because he believed he needed another child. Aegon V probably was trying to fulfill prophecy too, when he burned down Summerhall.
Similar to how Plato described the decline of Atlantis. I like it.
I find it hard to imagine any amount of gold being a sufficient sacrifice to compensate 14 faceless men who surely would not be able to escape the doom alive
I was thinking about that same thing while re-watching this, and have some thoughts. While I think that fanatical death worshiping assassins would be willing to die in order to cause the doom, they’re established as having many different methods of assassination. It’s not too much of a stretch to think they had a way to poison the fire mages that would take a while to kick in and kill them, giving the faceless men time to escape before the 14 flames exploded. The faceless men seem fond of poison as a method of killing. Jaqen could have just stabbed pate to kill him for his face, but he uses the poisoned coin trick instead. And for baelon Greyjoy, iirc, they sabotaged the bridge he was standing on and he fell to his death. They don’t seem to use direct methods of assassination very much.
I hadn’t really considered any of this before rewatching the video, so who knows if any of this actually fits.
I would that the volcanoes didn't explode right after the Fire Mages died. It might have taken an hour or 48
There's a lot of "we often meet our fate on the road we take to avoid it" going on in these books. It seems like every prophecy ends that way (though, in fairness, nobody probably remembers the prophecies which didn't pan out, or didn't have a memorable ending). There also seems to be a bit of a lesson throughout that George is trying to tell us about magic: it is ultimately unpredictable, uncontrollable, and frequently brings as much harm as benefit. We see this lesson in, for example, the Children and their Hammer of the waters not doing what it is meant to do. Or, if the show is to be believed, the Children creating the Others and the Others turning on them. Dany's malformed child. What happened to Hodor (again, if the show is canonical), etc. The fact that the fire mages were killed definitely helped initiate the Doom, but they also created the high pressures and explosive conditions in the first place. George is trying to teach us that magic is often counter-productive and unpredictable, and the most magically-associated people in the story right now (Melisandre, Dany, Bran, Thoros, etc) are likely to to meet unpredictable endings and bring unpredictable consequences because of it.
Prophecy is a double-edged sword. It could allow one to avoid the brunt of said fate, but it could also lead to a self-fulfilling prophecy.
Crazy to think how the Dance of the Dragons was essentially a second Doom of Valyria;
The Dragonlord Targaryens, the noble families like Velaryon, Celtigar and Rhogare, most of the Dragonseeds and the Dragons themselves, the legacy of Valyria was sundered and father weakened during the War and its aftermath in the few coming years
The Valyrians as a whole, both the humans and Dragons, mostly ended up dying and diminished in power, leading to a less explosive, secondary "Doom" to befall those with the Blood of the Dragon
Just food for thought.
I think the ungodly amount of times I've tried to talk to them about their volcanoes extended warranty finally did them in. Great video, as always. I enjoyed it a lot!
Yeah man, those Valyrians kept on ignoring all my OSHA warnings about unsafe hazardous work conditions in their mines too until it killed them.
Well... this takes the Maester Conspiracy to a whole new level... and here I am thinking that it was all about getting the Targaryens off the throne... ridding the world of dragons... as until that point it was the Faith of the Seven and the High Septon who held the bulk of the power in Westeros. Now I'm wondering if they have any designs on worldwide conquest.
The came euron with his dragon horn and lovecraft ambition
They do not. They regularly advise the King to stay out of business in Essos unless it directly effects Westeros. They were just trying to prevent the Valyrians from trying to invade Westeros. The Valyrians were making moves that looked like they wanted to expand to Westeros and the maesters didn't want that.
I'd be afraid if I was a shadowbinder of Ashai...
except they hadnt even conquered the faith in the old gods yet.
@@tooslow4065
Nor the Drowned God of the Iron Islanders, but one might argue that as the Old Gods were the original faith of Westeros & because the numbers of their respective adherents are small, & in most other respects they're integrated into Westerosi culture- they aren't anything to worry about. The Northerners largely keep to themselves, & Harren was very much an anomaly- the Iron Islanders are a natural & mostly containable threat, with a natural remedy- the Valyrians, with dragons & magic were not...
Always brightens my day when I see the notifications for these videos pop up
It’s kind off funny how an entire civilisation and millions of people died just because the lannisters wanted a shiny new sword.
Wish they would make a series in this time period
someone will eventually. with GRRM's blessing or not.
" The idea that we control the dragons is an illusion. They are a power man should never had messed up with. One that caused Valyria its doom". Viserys HOT D S1 E1. This line made me wonder what if Valyria's arrogance of believing they could control the dragons fired back at them literally: Some dragons got out of control and fought the Dragonlords and Fire mages. Some of the latter managed to survive but their magic got weaker, and was not enough to sustain the 14 flames dormant. After all, if the only thing that could tear down the House Of The Dragon when at it's peak was itself, then this is even more true for the Empire of the Dragon...
its*
I wouldn't take anything from a TV show as truth for the books.
@@jraelien5798 Well, Aegon's prophecy is GRRM's idea.
@@constantinetranos2225 and that would mean the dragons destroyed themselves, since they all died in the doom. not counting eggs. so not a very good plan
@@tooslow4065 I didn't know that the dragons were supposed to know how to orchestrate revolutions...
my theory is that there was a circuit of mages that held the 14 flames back at all times, and during a shift change, the faceless men killed one/multiple pivotal members in the group, thus allowing the flames to explode (volcano explosions)
I have a theory that the doom of Valyria was a nuclear explosion. It fits with the poem about it from the books, which talks about fire so hot that even dragons burned, and how it was the last thing they saw, which is consistent with a nuclear explosion as the light from the blast blinds people who see it.
where the hell would that have come from though?
Interestingly tyrions character is based on another tyrion from grrm book about nuclear apocalypse
This is definitely the most elegant explanation that ties everything together. It also fits JRRM's taste for consequences... and particularly unintended consequences. Everything is connected.
Drop everything, Robert dropped a new video! ❤
I think its a streatch to say that the maestres could have forged a valyrian steel sword because they had valyrian steel chains. We don't know if they forged them themselves, and by the time of the series, no one knew how to reforge a valyrian steel sword outside some specific locations in essos, let alone forge them from scratch. It doesn't seem on character for the maestres to forget such powerful knowledge in just a couple of centuries
The Smith that taught Gendry knows how to do it as well, Toho Mott
Maybe the maesters didn't forge it themselves, they could have bought one through intermediaries so it didn't look like the Lannisters were paying for it.
Recently found your channel and I have been watching a lot of videos from 1-4 years back, really cool to see one so early now!
Great vid as always Robert / IDG. The Doom & theories around it are fascinating. Many of the clues point to the FM being hired to assassinate the Fire Mages who were keeping the 14 Flames in check. As Robert mentioned i do agree that it was not the FM taking it upon themselves with the Doom but hired to do so. If there was a FM agenda here should be more evidence & actions showing this process over time ; ntm an empire delivering so much death over its reign might be somewhat pleasing to the FM tbh. Who hired the FM & why ? There are a few candidates - theories are there w/ the Targs who benefited greatly being the only remaining dragon-lord family. But their actions (or lack there of) for a good century or so after don't massively show the intent to me. Plus there were a few dragons / riders who did survive the Doom outside Valyria (though not for very long) that the Targs could not be certain would be eliminated.
Barth being a truth teller in many of our opinion , the Casterly gold prophecy and the Brightroar sale / acquisition with likely the maesters involvement and using the gold to hire the FM for the Doom does make sense. Plus Marwyn did let slip an admission of sorts regarding the Citadel's role in this. And the Citadel was likely wary of possible further Valyrian westward expansion ; along with magic / magical entities (like dragons) not being in their worldview. All adds up nicely. Though i would add another potential piece to this formula. I do think Braavos itself and / or the Iron Bank could have also been involved. Braavos & the IB were a wealthy emerging global super-power who would need to be rid of the Valyrians to take that next geopolitical step - certainly were rich enough , the FM are headquartered there and Braavos was founded by escaped Valyrian slaves who had a grudge against & hated OV and their practices , especially slavery. I personally do see the means and motive for Braavos' potential involvement with the Doom as well.
The Iron Bank being involved makes a lot of sense to me. Their wealth combined with that Lannister gold would make for an absolutely massive fortune, and they had just as much motivation as the maesters, I’d say.
@@billzoaiken yeah , idk if there are current theories about Braavos' involvement with The Doom. With this huge fandom with so many theories i assume it is out there in some capacity (though does not seem overly prevalent) . But at least i personally never came across them. And not much definitive proof with the theory but it just makes a lot of sense to me. Especially given the difficulty and cost of initiating The Doom it would make sense to partner up to share the cost , especially as they already shared motivation (Braavos , the IB & the Citadel).
Biggest thing for me with Braavos is they had the means and motivation. Braavos & the IB were wealthy emerging global super-powers that could only go so far geopolitically with Valyria in place. OV who if they found out about Braavos and their growth / development would have quickly destroyed them. Braavos also had a personal grudge being founded by escaped Valyrian slaves who hated OV & their practices (slavery especially). Just adds up to me. And not that it means much as anyone can hire them who can afford to but the FM are headquartered in Braavos as well. Just seems a lot of smoke not to be some sort of fire ; especially given Braavos & the IB having the means and motivation to also want Valyria destroyed.
Pycelle’s loyalty to the Lannister’s seems to almost be an echo of this. I’m not saying that any of the people involved at the time of asoiaf are aware of this but the connection of Tywin Lannister and the grand maester working together for the fall of House Targaryen looks like a microcosm of the events that led to the Doom. Even more so when you consider Tywin’s unyielding desire to acquire a Valyrian steel sword for his family. This is something George does a lot, relatively smaller events between important people representing larger more significant events between groups those characters represent.
Thanks for your wonderful content. You deserve your patreon Community so much!
That was excellent. What a well written and presented explanation. It makes me want to go back and listen to the books again.
A very well made and interesting video, Robert. Many thanks.
Excellent as always, Robert!
I feel like I finally understand the series/book's world and politics and history.. thank you.
Great video. Thank you, Robert.
Thank you Robert! Love all of your videos
I think you have it perfectly right. Nicely done!
So wish we'd get a TV show about Valyria.
Wasn't there one that was supposed to be made, but then it got cancelled for the Dunk and Egg shit incoming
I wish we'd get a finished a song of ice and fire from Martin.
I don't think i could stomach a telly show that shows a quasi rome with all it's corruption, privilege and slave mastery dictating over half a world.
@@Elazul2k dunk and egg shit you say?? how dare you?!
@@bautibunge737 The Gods forbid ASOIAF be anything but dark and scary. You get a clout on the ear.
Glad you're back. Cheers to the next one
Excellent video, with compelling links and a good conclusion.
David lightbringer has a theory that they only needed to kill the right one fire mage to break the intricate chain of spells holding it all together that I love because it's just so simple. Occams razor.
Excellent video very captivating!
I'm sorry I'm late to the party. 🙂
Wonderful job on this video, Robert!!! Your hard work is always apparent, and your ideas always give me a lot to think about. Thank you!! ❤
Very interesting theory you've put forward. And one that is quite possible. I like it. Thanks
Great topic!
This explanation fits the complex themes of ASIAF well. To borrow a phrase from another franchise, one often finds their destiny on the path they take to avoid it
This proves the infallibility of prophecies in my opinion.That no matter what we do;they’re bound to happen.There’s a biblical example as well.After Joseph tells his brothers of the his dream of their sheaves bowing down to his seemingly meaning that one day they’ll have to bow down to him as the second youngest they’re incensed.They sell him into slavery in Egypt thinking that will ensure they will NEVER have to bow down to him.
Thing is that event is what indirectly leads them to bowing down to him when they go to Egypt to buy grain during a famine at which point Joseph has become the governor of Egypt.
@@rouskeycarpel1436 And yet, had they done nothing, likely the prophecy would not have come true
Absolutely brilliant video
Yes! I’m pumped for this !! Fire baby Fire
It's a very comprehensive theory you've got there that connects a lot of dots, and it's certainly valid, but I don't entirely agree with it. Mainly, I think it robs Valyria of its agency in its own downfall. Not entirely, for having an empire of eternal expansion and slavery inspiring enemies against you can be a result of your own agency, but I always liked the idea of Valyrians having a hand in their undoing more directly. The dot in question I would not connect in this is the Maesters. When Marwyn speaks of dragons, I think he only speaks of the Targaryen dragons. With that dot removed, what I see is a rogue Valyrian house, determined to gain advantage over their rivals, either disregard the prophecy or were ignorant of it and finally craft the Lannisters their sword, needing the money for their political ambitions. This isn't entirely about assassinations, but inevitably some come along, if you believe the Fire Mages were still active participants in their family's political maneuvering, then they become fair targets. And perhaps the Lannister Gold circulates around, far enough to reach the victims of these assassinations, who even if aware of the prophecy is ignorant of this particular coin's origin, and two can play at that game, and the Faceless Men have a bustling trade as a heady mixture of ambition, arrogance and retribution intoxicates the Valyrians, perhaps even to the point those who should know better join in, until you've hit the critical point where the spells fail and Hyper-Pompeii happens.
And speaking of Hyper-Pompeii, the Roman Republic is why I think Valyria unwittingly helped set up the Doom. With the threat of Carthage vanquished, the leading men of Rome had nothing keeping their ambition in check, no flag to rally and unite behind, and in the seventy years following the sack of Carthage, Roman Customs once considered sacred and inviolate were disregarded with more and more abandon, and this culminated while Julius Caesar was still a teenager, setting the example he would later follow across the Rubicon. It's no secret that George Martin took a lot of inspiration from Rome for Valyria, so it wouldn't surprise me that some sort of internal squabble would lead someone to decide they would do anything to get ahead of their enemies, and mean it. Disregarding an old mystical prophecy for an easy source of cash is where it starts, but as the reprisals grow and the enmity blooms, lines are crossed that nobody a century earlier would have even considered.
I think it's a healthy concept in storytelling that your characters' downfall is a result of their own choices. Ned warning Cersei or Robb marrying Jeyne are examples on point. And while Valyria inspiring enemies to strike against them kind of fits that mold, individuals following their ambitions or grievances or passions to the point of destruction just rings more true to me.
This theory would still have them be responsible in that they created their own enemies. Their slavery created the faceless men, and their expansionism caused other groups to want them destroyed
@@thewerdna You're not wrong, but it's a theory that ultimately has Valyria felled by only the actions of their enemies. To return to Rome, this would be as if Hannibal shattered Rome and broke it apart, instead of Rome's internal character destabilising the republic and having the empire have semi-regular civil wars. It just makes sense to me, and feels more suitably dramatic, that Valyria took actions that directly contributed to its downfall.
Thanks as always for the great content. I just finished rereading the series in hopes of finishing just before The Winds of Winter is released. No luck with that plan, but it has been a lot of fun listening to your insights on Westeros as I read the novels :)
In terms of the Doom, i suspect it was the result of some sorcery or attempted sorcery gone wrong.That was the time of magic in the realm, so I suspect someone abused the power that comes with certain forms of magic/sorcery. This would be in line with many of the themes of the novels.
This fits so well and makes sense.
Well done, Robert! Brilliant assessment. If this wasn't happened in the author's mind, I'd be surprised.
I love reading/watching about this theory!
Really great video !
AWESOME video🔥🔥🐲. Leave it to you to keep digging and bringing up great questions and theories❤️✌️
Hey Robert, I'm a new subscriber but I just wanted to say thank you so much for what you do. I absolutely love your insights and analysis, so nice to hear such thoughtful and considered opinions on fantasy worlds and characters that mean so much to me. Kudos and huge thanks to you my friend
I love this theory! Well done ❤
I always thought that George R R Martin might have had something to do with it. :)
He was definitely the mastermind there. The original faceless man.
Escape! How did the Faceless Men a pyroclastic event to establish themselves in Braavos? If the fire mage spells fell, and not even the dragons could fly away, how much time does one need and how far away to avoid being burned to a crisp once one has felled all the fire mages & the lava flows?
Great video the theory is sound there were so many questions that were never answered in the final series
Very elegant explanation. I like it
Lots of people talk about this in the fandom but in my opinion most people leave out the most compelling suggestion to me which is one of the main (or at least one of the most persistent) themes of ASOIAF is that magic is powerful and can be effective but ultimately fails over the course of time here are the examples that stand out to me:
1- The Children of the forest had magic and near limitless command over the wilds, animals and the elements, they had so much power they could actively reshape their continent and still ultimately failed to stop the invasion of the first men and were forced to broker peace with humans and thus were all but eradicated or displaced from most of Westeros over generations, they failed to stop humans with magic when the smashed the landbridge between Dorne and Essos and at the Neck and when their magic failed they were doomed.
2 - The Others had ice magic and could raise and control the dead and ultimately were defeated or severely weakened by The Last Hero / Azor Ahai and pushed back to the Lands of Always Winter for thousands of years when their magic failed they were doomed .
3- Even after the Doom the Targaryens relied upon their Dragons and we are literally told Dragons are fire made flesh (living magic) they might not have had access to the full fire and blood magic other Valyrians had but eventually they ended up essentially consuming themselves almost destroying their own House sealing the almost total doom of their own- in each of these instances the magic that the various magic failed and was overwhelmed and lead eventually to their near total doom of Dragons as a species, when their mafic failed they were doomed (until Daenerys who just so happens to have regained Dragons for the first time in generations which isn’t a coincidence)
I mention all of those examples to say this -We are never going to be explicitly told what caused the Doom but I don’t think there isnt even a question to consider here in my mind Valyria fell just like the other forms of magic Imentioned even if powerful and seemingly unstoppable eventually the magic the Valyrians used to make Valyria prosperous and safe failed them just as all magic does in this world magic is inherently unstable and the real cause of their doom was their own hubris in thinking they were invincible
In this world when magic is used consistently it almost always eventually fails and leads to the near eradication of the persons / things using said magic - that pattern has been repeated and highlighted to readers of the series time and time again
The Lannister gold and the Faceless men explanations are cute but I think its clear - magic is just unstable and eventually if given enough time always fails and that failure in this case was immediately cataclysmic
Great video. Just found this site. Thanks
Very compelling theory, def convinced me👌
the different style edditing is really nice
Lore like this makes me yearn even more for the remaining books.
Excellent stuff. Seems to fit like a glove
That was an awesome video!!!!
I think you nailed it!
I like this theory...great video as always!
You're like Shakespeare on GRRMs trail of clues.
It's hard to poke holes in the theory. I like it. We'll probably never find out because the books will never be completed, but we'll always have your videos :)
Great theory n analysis ;)
Hi, I would like to thank you. As your videos have been helpful in Re-igniting my interest in A Song of Ice and Fire.👍🙏
I like this theory. Theories like this are what I would love to have as a short (or long) side novel.
What happens with maester's valyrian steel link, once a maester dies? Do you think that the lord of castle sends it back to the Citadel?
Great video! ❤
Well done
I admittedly don't know much about GoT lore. But you would think Occam's razor would be more apt. What if magic in general, or more specifically "fire magic" had just been waining over centuries and the fire mages could no longer contain the volcanoes?
I do love this theory though! Very good video!
The infighting & assassinations, both known by the 40 Families of the Freehold & those secretly done by the Faceless Men would have undoubtedly had an impact on their ability to keep the power within the 14 Flames under control.
Like any civilisation that has a limited access military, religious, or social elite- like the Spartans or Druids, or anything similar; you aren't just killing people- you're killing bloodlines, you're killing experience, you're killing years & even decades of training & knowledge - you kill who & what people hold sacred & special, you're essentially ripping the heart & spine out of a civilisation.
The people & some cultural remnants may live on- but those fundamentals can never come again (especially in a non-literary culture with no written records), & by necessity they will evolve into something else- similar, but never the same as what was before. The Celtic peoples didn't die out when Caesar & other Romans went after the Druid class (Caesar himself was said to have held a couple of pro-Roman, or at least not anti-Roman druids in high regard) - their level of focus in destroying the Druids was noted unusual, as the Romans were quite accepting of other cultures & faiths as a rule; other than Druids, the followers of Bacchus/ Dionysus, & Jews*, & Christians were their only real religious targets.
* Jewish people were a complicated matter, as far as the sources go- as a monotheist culture in a largely polytheistic world, they were an anomaly- but, for the most part, because they were willing to pay appropriate taxes & respect to Roman authorities, they were usually left to their own devices in the greater Roman Empire- the biggest issues were in their homeland; Palestine & Judea were frequently hotbeds of radicals & anti-Roman rebels- & the Romans came down on them, hard.
However, there was a fairly swift delineation between Jews & the new offshoot, Christians. Jews weren't really held responsible for Christians' actions by the First Century AD.
Of course, the pendulum can- & did- swing the other way, & Christianity went from outlawed & underground, to tolerated, to acceptable, to gaining supremacy- & then things went in the reverse, with 'pagan' faiths under threat- but I won't get into that...
Suffice it to say that the Valyrian culture we see in HotD is but a fragment of what the original was (& it is a much smaller & even more faded fragment come GoT) - if they ever made a prequel on the era around the Doom, or went further to show both their rise, *&* their fall- we would undoubtedly find their culture even more alien & unusual than what GoT & HotD have thus far shown...
another banger, Mr Deep Geek
Love your channel.
I would also love you to read the Kingkiller Chronicles by Patrick Rothfuss. One of the best fantasy books I’ve read in a long time.
You’ve been going crazy lately with videos 👍
holy hell this is insanity! the faceless men aspect was probably the most intriguing part of the show for me (haven’t read the books. yet) and i had yearned to uncover more of their mysteries. i had noooooo idea it went this deep! fantastic vid 🥹
Great video sir
This is a good one.
wow nice! good job.
Love this story ❤️
Seems like it explains itself. Valyrian Fire Mages kept smaller explosions at bay for millennia; but this only would have kept the volcanic field bottled up and growing in potential energy over time. Until boom. Big bada Doom.
The simplest explanation is the most likely the truest, but often people want a more romantic purpose.
I know this is what you do, but this is very clever. Very good theory.
Amazing !
"They held each other close and turned their backs upon the end.
The hills that split asunder and the black that ate the skies;
The flames that shot so high and hot that even dragons burned;
Would never be the final sights
that fell upon their eyes.
A fly upon a wall, the waves the sea wind whipped and churned -
A city of a thousand years, and all that men had learned;
The Doom consumed it all alike,
and neither of them turned."
This gives "A Lannister Always Pays It's Debts" an added layer of meaning.. that's very interesting.
Really enjoyable video.
Only thing I have to add is regarding the maesters and their valyrian links. Those denoted the pursuit of magic, which seems to be a relatively unpopular pursuit (especially in the modern age), I know there's Marwyn but he seems to be very much against the orthodoxy and is quite different to most maesters in his interests. So I don't think you'd need a particularly large amount of the steel, especially if recycling links is something they do (not sure if there is an answer to that).
Been a while since I've read the books so I may be misremembering how common they were, or if they had valyrian steel links that also indicated something else besides magic.
Good point about the links
Maester Luwin had one as well. We don't know how common they were, but they are often mentioned in the more prominent maesters.
@@ImReverseGiraffe Good point, I remember now he gave the speech about the wonders of youth and all that. Apparently from Luwin's quote it's 1 in a 100 who get the Valyrian steel link (although that might be show only I need to check) It's one I'd certainly pick!, which with their relatively tiny size , and the possibility of them being recycled I don't think is enough to be a factor as the video potentially theorised.
Still a really good video though.
Oh! Geek sir, this was such a fresh take, and is fitting. My personal thought leans more to targaryens providing the sword getting the gold and hiring faceless men. Using dragonsight as a cover. But, keeping the provider anonymous in the records was a good point you caught sir.
Narrator sounds like Jared Harris. Excellent listen.
Yayyyy new videos!!!!
also i dunno, if the maesters were able and willing to produce a valyrian steel sword (something that requires spellcraft) why wouldn't tywin or any other lord of the rock just get one from them after brightroar was lost? especially if he knew that his family did so a few centuries earlier? and why would such a high-profile exchange between the lannisters and the citadel be secret anyway?
it's hard for me to imagine valyrian steel blood magic forges in the citadel. it feels more likely that the citadel has some VS links and the artifacts of the magic archmaester that are just passed among the few maesters who study magic over the years. also that marwyn quote is surely referencing the killing of the targaryen dragons