This is the first time I've realized that the Faceless Men would have a serious problem with Beric, Lady Stoneheart, and Robert Strong (and potentially Jon Snow). This opens up so many possibilities for Arya's story.
right! its like it clicked, thats why arya ends up killing the night king. So the show had it right but was just terrible at building the lore around it. God i hope he finishes the books.
I'm not thaty sure. They would have issues with someone preventing them from killing someone (as they are stealing a life from the Many-Faced God). But someone who dies and comes back can be written off as being sent back by the Many-Faced God himself.
The faceless men my not have a problem with Lady Stone Heart, Beric or Jon Snow but they will have a problem with Robert Strong us he was not resurrected by deity.
None of them are brought back by a deity. Fire magic may exist, but that's not evidence of Rhilor. There are singers in the trees, but they are not gods. Euron wants to be seen as an avatar of the storm god, but he is just a man as well.
I’m on the fence about the faceless men being totally against the resurrection of Beric, Lady Stoneheart, Robert Strong and Jon Snow. Yes, resurrection from death is something that the Faceless Men will fundamentally disagree with as “all men must die” (on a side note, Lady Stoneheart is no man); yet the Faceless Men also believe “all men must serve”. If they believe resurrection of people from death will ultimately deliver death of others then there’s no affront to their ideology as they are doing a service to the many faced god
The rule that the assassin must not know the victim also serves to impede the assassin from killing for his own benefit. As an assassin, Arya wouldn’t be able to kill the people on her list, for example
My hunch is that the Valyrian masters started investigating ways to use their blood magic to achieve some form of immortality - that would certainly get the attention of a cult who believes "all men must die". The Valyrians mastered dragons and a good chunk of Essos, what's left to conquer after that but death itself?
Man, you’re a hell of a storyteller here, my dude! I love your channel because of the research and passion that’s reflected in your telling of these tales! Thank you for what you do!
Arya spent time being blind, and that was part of regular training. I think the odds are good that she is doing regular training with the acting company, since all Faceless Men need some acting skills to go places, and it is easier to be "another" the way an actor does, with walking and makeup and character study than whatever minor surgery and magic combo they use when they reuse a face. *And I bet the company is going to Westeros with their "Evil Imp" play that she's now playing in!*
It was a metaphore. To be a high-functioning sociopath, one must transcend both ego and emotion. 'Give a girl a name.' Clairvoyance is a gift the sociopathic possess. 'Unblinded by both ego, and emotion, my vision becomes clear. I will wear many faces, before I reach my destination. None of them, my own. But I see clearly, my destination, and all the pieces that stand in my way.' 'A man'. Not 'I am'. High functioning sociopaths don't need acting classes. They need real faces to observe and borrow, and most have plenty by the time they become high functioning. (If they ever do. Most don't make it out of infantility/narcissism, as it leads to their own demise).
I have always wondered if there was some link between the faceless men, and the silent sisters. Both associated with death, and who better to supply them with an endless supply of 'faces' than those who prepare bodies for interment.
It seems so strange that slaves who died by the thousands, directly as a result of the horrendous conditions in the Valyrian mines would need to pray night after night for escape / salvation / death. Only a being without the prospect of death would need such a service and pray for it so hard. So… the logical explanation (and very GRRM) is that like wights, the slaves of Valyria were dead / reanimated. This was not the case at first, but over time the valyrians worked out how to reanimate slaves to provide a tireless and unending workforce to sate their hunger for wealth / gold etc. All men DO die. This is natural. This always happens. But the need for them to “must die” can only mean that something was preventing that in the first place. Blood magic / Valyrian sorcery to keep them enthralled. And a literary parallel / opposite to the cold wights of the Others. Seems to me that all men serving and all men dying are two tenets of the same belief. Service is fine. Service is good. But perpetual service because a man has been raised from the dead to serve indefinitely- that’s not cool. That’s why all men must also die. Just one guy giving death to people who will die shortly anyway is almost pointless. And certainly not the basis for a fanatical death cult. But a guy who figures out how to permanently end the life of suffering and limitless service - that is the true origin of the faceless men.
Arya was brought up with the philosophical Stark motto: "the man who passes the sentence must swing the sword." This is a juxtaposition to the Faceless Men philosophy of assassination, as the logical extension to this is that the man who passes the sentence does *not* swing the sword. Arya will become conflicted about these 2 contradictory philosophical positions.
The man who called himself the Alchemist killed Pate the Novice at the Citidel, so that guy is on a mission, no way that poor slob was on the assassination list back in Bravos.
Perhaps he is working with Euron.. A faceless man did assassinate Balon and considering how close the islands are to the reach, it's quite possibly the same one. Perhaps the faceless men secretly worship the others. All men must die and all men must serve does sound like the others and the wights and Euron seems fully intent on unleashing chaos upon the world
@@nunyabiznes33 Yeah, that seems like that is the mission - but Pate is just in the way, that's why he dies, so the FM clearly have leeway to improvise and kill if there is an identity they need to complete it.
@@eric2500 maybe they atone for stuff like this by permanently retiring one persona? But yeah, this is more an infiltration than an assassination mission, probably from the Faceless group itself rather than a customer, they'd definitely take down anyone in the way.
GRRM gets much inspiration from real world history. Rashid al-Dinan San was a member of a Muslim organization literally called Order of Assassins. They operated for around 300 years during the Crusades. Sinan was known as, “The Old Man of the Mountain” (kindly old man). Sinan eventually became the leader of this group. This group often assassinated high level targets like kings. They made an unsuccessful assassination attempt against Edward I of England for example. Sinan supposedly ordered Saladin’s assassination for some reason. The assassination was unsuccessful as well but there’s a story there that looks ripe for inclusion in GoT.
@@zdeneknovak5276 Writers are not valued because the CEO's don't give a rat's ass about quality and only care about profits. The people at the top are not creative types. They are bean counters. The creatives like Robert here at IDG are passionate about ideas. The showrunners and producers are passionate about dollars...in....their...pockets. My perspective is from America, BTW
@@chachi958-rg8ju Lumping showrunners in with the suits is disingenuous. Showrunners are writers too. It's very easy to point to showrunners who care deeply about the quality of the show they are running. This includes D&D for much of at least the first half of GoT. Many beloved elements are inventions for the show that were not in the book.
@@johnnymittle True. Now, _writing talent,_ is another matter entirely. As a truism goes, 'never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence'.
When you mentioned "heresy" at the end I suddenly got a vision of some off-duty ordo assassinorum cultist watching this video for background noise while doing his weapon rituals and suddenly snapping to attention when he hears the word. "HUH? WHAT, heresy where?"
Has anyone ever thought the many faced god could also apply to money? Coins with different faces on them. It would connect them to the Iron Bank, alao based in Braavos.
@ashmeadowphoenix I always thought that the Sealord of Braavos, the Iron Bank and the Faceless Men do have an alliance of sorts, since they do form the backbone of Braavos as a city and what it stands for
Great vid as always Robert / IDG. Look forward to delving deeper with the FM analysis in this series of vids discovering your updated / evolving thoughts on the FM in general and they are certainly an interesting part of the narrative. I do agree overall the FM are a death cult above all else , from their origins / inception to the current narrative timeline that seems their overarching ethos. Their main tenets of bringing / facilitating death and serving the order which in turn serves the Many-Faced God are ever present in the actions and organization of the FM. Between providing a quick death at the House of B&W to those seeking it or carrying out extremely expensive assassination missions , all match up with those tenets. I think the confusion (at least imo) that happens from many is conflating what they are hired to do as them being complicit , agreeing / disagreeing or more a role in those plots beyond being hired. What they are hired to do by the Iron Bank , Bravoosi top brass , or any super wealthy individual who can hire them doesn't imo uncover some complex hidden FM agenda. I think their M.O. is simply to serve the Many-Faced God by providing / facilitating death (which those assassination missions are part of) and making sure the natural order of death is not being disrupted. Thats where i think their involvement in the narrative comes into play , investigating those cheating death be it wights & resurrections (via different magical mediums) which is subverting death / the natural order of death in general and taking actions to wipe out those partaking in such practices which they will view as unacceptable heresy. I do believe that is their overarching aim and the actions to achieve it that they have done and will continue to do will be shown to be in service to that goal above all else.
The Iron Bank and Faceless Men have a symbiotic relationship. The Bank launders the _massive_ payouts of clients who can "afford" to pay with mere gold, meanwhile the Bank gets some stealthy help 'enforcing' its loans.
I've always felt that the Many-Faced God of Death feels like a great name for the leader of the Others, an evil force controlling the bodies of the dead to try and destroy the living. The creed "All men must die. All Men must serve." also seems like exactly what the leader of the others would be instructing the wights. I wouldn't be surprised if the Faceless Men have something to do with the long night in the past and the present of the story.
@@olofacosta3192 or the real reason the doom happened like Dany they justified it saying they were slavers calling out the evil actions of said target but what about subconsciously what did they gain
@@wolfsbanealphas617 it might be for more sinister reasons. What if they wanted to destroy Valyria as a massive sacrifice to many faced god. What if they're about to the same to old town?
Faceless men are trained to assume any role in order to get close enough to assassinate their target. Sometimes that may mean assuming the role of a prisoner.
The group was bound for the nights watch. Who was supposed to go with them? He had just lost his head. I think he was hired by someone maybe the Lannister’s or Baelish. We see how they give out multiple assignments at once so it would seem like Jaqen was given multiple tasks in Westeros.
Fantastic storytelling. I've considered them sort off avatars of death. An aspect. And as death simply IS, i understand the nonjudgemental behaviour. And also why undead would be a problem. It upsets the natural balance of things. I also think Arya indeed became a faceless woman, who now plays the role of Arya. Her last encounter seemed to convince Jaqen. Though that's the tv series. Still working on the books.... Also, i think it is logical they don't want to lose everything they were,mif that was even possible, ANYONE could be a faceless man. But they are carefully chosen. Lastly, Subbed 😊
I think they are all faceless but just are too terrified to realize it. They play the game to protect themselves from the void. The goal of training is not to become faceless it’s to realize and accept you actually are.
@@horvathsogranfume658 I'm familiar with the Latin phrase and its theme in literature. Are you referencing the tattooing of the actual phrase or a soecific imagery that symbolizes it? I first read the SoIaF series in 2010. Read Dance when it came out land I just loved the language of it and how people used it in the story. Especially the connection to Arya. So I had my gf tattoo it on me. It's the only SoIaF related tattoo I have though. As of now. I also have "And though she be but little, she is Fierce" with my youngest daughters name on my neck, I have "Something Wicked this way comes" on a banner with some witch themed imagery on my ribs, and I have an "Artful Dodger" themed tattoo on my torso. And I have portraits of Dickens and Shakespeare (with a hidden "code" in the Shakespeare portrait). All that to say, I'm a writer and a literature nerd so when I read something that resonates with me I usually have it tattooed on me forever.
I think the entire story is an exposition of a series of superficial events ultimately directed by the gods, in a battle between the gods for control of the world (for souls, worship, etc), sloppily excuted by the imperfect creatures of this world.
What intrigues me the most at this moment is the indication that a faceless man is in the citadel. I hope it's Jaqen H'ghar (I really liked the character). Hopefully we can see some of this in the next book.
I just binge watched 7 seasons of GoT for the first time (I'm in season 8 now). Your content expanding GRRM's universe is top notch! Maybe I should wait until I am done the series to avoid spoilers but I just have so many questions!
Great video, loved the older video series on this topic and look forward to go through the theories again. But also, "the RUclipsrs are remaking their videos" is kind of a "George, please" moment when waiting for the main series to continue :-/
7:25 I think this "rule" is being misunderstood. Most likely, it really means that the faceless man cannot be assigned a target his current persona knows personally. To receive that assignment, the current persona would need to die and a new one generated (along with all the time and cost that implies). However, the scene is written in a way to make the reader think it's deeper even though it goes against what Arya has been experiencing with attempts to get rid of "Arya" and become no one. No one would personally know the family or friends of Arya Stark. I do wonder if there's a level of training that involves a acolyte given an assignment that personally known to the person No One once was, but is no longer. Similar to how the Unsullied are required to kill their own puppy on command to pass a part of their training.
I like the idea that it's based on the current persona. For one it would stop them from being a suspect because they'd be forewarned and able to have an alibi. Also, if people knew that was a rule, it would allow a faceless man to more easily be friendly with strangers, as people would know that anyone trying to make friends couldn't be there to kill them.
This is my theory too. Jacquen becomes no one after killing the guys to free them from Harrenhall. So Arya could still kill her enemies but just not in the persona of Arya.
That's a good explanation, AND a sort of kinda slightly contradictory rationale that you'd very much expect to find in a cult or secret society of any kind. And yeah, the trainee/ acolyte/novice/postulant/ grad student/ cadet/ grunt/ etcetera has to be challenged and find a way to prove their devotion and they want to know the wash outs early!
The notion that Littlefinger is a faceless man makes a bunch of sense, if we knew wtf the faceless men actually wanted. Also, the idea that Arya who came back to Westeros is actually the Waif would be awesome.
i dont think they are entirely divorced from a social justice motive. Likely the only reason some slave in valeria was receptive to the idea of mercy killing his own people was because of how brutal life was for slaves. And if the faceless men helped cause the doom on purpose that is for sure above and beyond their MO. To me that suggests they were extra motivated.
I think the faceless men had the purpose of guiding and protecting fate. I think Jaqen was several characters in the story all moving events like pieces on a chess board. They move events towards a predetermined but somewhat uncertain end. They are the active where the guy in the tree seemed to be the passive. The events of the story play out over and over like a multiverse. This is evidenced by “hold the door”
Balance? I found their philosophy to be very Buddhist, even if twisted. Their life mission seems to be honest when compared with the other factions in Westeros. I am going to enjoy this, Robert, thank you. 😊
I dont think the Faceless Men want anything. Death comes us all, one way or another and sometimes they take an active role in who checks out early. A secret agenda wouldn't make sense for something that was inevitable, like ...death. I can also see them totally losing their shit over undead.
I'm seeing more and more videos in recent times that appear to justify how the TV show ended; Arya killing the NK, Bran on the throne, Daenerys going psycho and being killed by Jon. It does seem as if D&D were following GRRM's notes, but were clueless in getting to the end point in a convincing manner.
It's been 6 months today since George mentioned he only had 500 pages to write, how many pages do you think he had left to write before he finishes it? Do you think he will finish writing it in 2023?
Whatever it is you can be assured it has to do with Magic that the "mainstream" Maesters say doesn't exist. Such as the Black Candles that have started to burn again. If Jaqen was there to kill, he would have done so already after taken the persona of that Acolyte. But instead he seems to be there to steal.....something.
@@Mutiny960 blood and fire aka the death of dragons is the most popular theory. I personally believe he's there to use the book+the dragon egg he allegedly got from Euron to blow up the citadel. Why exactly I unfortunately don't quite know.
@@olofacosta3192 Quick Theory of the top of my head, it's to kill Euron. He wants to be a God right? Gods don't DIE. Seems like a person the (FM) would keep a spy watching. One of his tongueless slaves. They would know he has the Dragon Horn, and will seek to convert a Dragon, so they need to kill a Dragon. Why not kill him now? Well he hasn't done anything wrong...yet. He's still mortal and he kills A LOT of people which makes the Faceless God happy. Seems like an insurance policy. If they want to kill the God Euron (if he ever makes it that far) then they will need to kill his Dragon First and probably have some other Classified information hidden in the Citadel about killing "immortals". AKA countering Magick from Asshai, which I'm sure Euron is planning on using as part of his Godhood ritual.
@@olofacosta3192 The Faceless don't have reasons to blow up the Citadel. It's not like the Faceless is actively trying to bring back magic into the world and they see the Citadel as an obstacle. I'm more towards the theory that they're planning to either steal or kill Dany's dragons.
If the Faceless Men think something that cannot die, like the white walkers, shouldn't exist and they might want to destroy them because is a threat to the natural order of things, does that make them the ASoIaF equivalent of vampire hunters? That their main goal is to kill inmortals?
I agree with all but one of challenges you mention for the faceless men's credo coming in the story's future. I don't personally think they'd care much about the Others, because Wights are just animated corpses; what made them people IS gone, the person IS dead. The Others just make use of what's left behind, much like the Faceless Men use a corpse's face for their magics, or that is my interpretation of what the Others do, at least. Great video!
Creed of high-functioning sociopaths. It is the temple of sociopathy. (To be grey. Between back and white). One must shed both ego and emotion to achieve the high-functioning state. Arya being blinded, is a metaphore. Only when she ascends her egotistical and emotional attachments and compulsions, (her list), is she qualified by the creed of sociopaths, (and given back her sight). You cannot wear other's faces, if you cannot let go of your own. (Anti-narcissism)
Id love to know how many faceless men you think there are, I don't remember ever hearing about how big the cult is. Is it in the 10's or 100's? how many priests have we seen in the same room at the same time? I could see them being like the balrogs from LOTR where tolkein first thought of armys of them, then changed his mind to say he doesn't think there were ever more than 7
I think there are a good amount of them. I mean Arya joined quite quickly and they do have a massive temple. But there are probably few who are as experienced and skillful as the kindly man and Jaqen
"Eleven servants of the Many-Faced God gathered that night beneath the temple, more than she had ever seen together at one time." Arya, ADWD Well with Jaqen it's 12, so I guess around this number, maybe a few more who are on other missions
@@Yuki-fm5hr Makes sense since GRRM takes a lot from RL history. 12 is a sacred number in a lot of cultures and 12 is also the number of disciples that Jesus had. It would make more literary sense if Jaqen was included in the 11 though. That would make Arya number 12, aka their version of Judas, the one destined to betray her oaths.
@@Mutiny960 wow that's really brilliant, thank you! That just means that we don't have any more potential faceless men lurking in the shadows somewhere else if that's the case, hm...
Apparently THIS is my 5,000th liked video on RUclips. Completely by luck that I even noticed that as I saved this video to my watch later & my liked list was beneath.
I wonder if they will appear in HOTD? I understand the part they played in training Arya but I’m intrigued to see if we see them. Also is there a link between the faceless men and Blood and Cheese? I maybe way off but could be a way to link them 🤷🏼♀️
Can’t help but feel that Ned knew men from bravos like the man who taught Arya to fight or water dance, I can’t help but think he was a faceless man & was the same man who road in the cage on their way to the wall, it’s like he was there to watch over Arya Stark, was that man Regar or Ned? I’d love to fine videos of reading out of the actual books of The Game of Thrones….
Tbh I don't know the lore that well at all, but what you said at 7:40 I took that more as the person the faceless man was disguised as knows the target; so the job would be more difficult. But again, I don't know what I'm talking about. Lol
It is pretty clear they have Euron's dragon egg, and Jaqen is in Oldtown looking on information on, I don't know, how to control an existing dragon or breed their own.
This makes a lot of sense as to why Arya through coincidence or fate finally obliterates the Night's King. Which would mean the faceless men are older than Valyria & before the age of heroes.
Not going to lie, but these guys feel like a massive plot hole. I mean how is it, during Aegon's conquest, that the other kings in Westeros pooled their resources together and hire these guys to kill the Targaryens?
The invasion happened pretty quickly, so very doubtful there would have been time, and only a few of the Kings would have had anything like the sort of money required - the Faceless men would have an extraordinarily high price to kill a man as powerful as Aegon. And what then? His sister-wives would simply have revenged his death and carried on with the conquest, no doubt inflicting horrendous vengeance on those who organised the assassination.
Simple answer would be distrust between the different kings. Only the Lannister and Gardener Kings were able to make accord, right? Perhaps they did not have the funds between them and could not find another backer
Do you think "becoming no one" could be about not be one person but instead many people instead? Cause that way the whole "can't assassinate someone they know" thing still works cause they aren't no one but many different identities, it also fits with the many faces god idea that their servants are all also many people
The faceless man did not kill the targs because if such an attempt failed at the hight of their power bravos would have burned plus I don’t think money would be the price they ask for such a task
The idea that a Faceless Man cannot kill someone they know isn't how they started out according to their own tale. If there is only one Faceless Man and someone asks them for their own death then they know that person. If they didn't know them then they couldn't be talking with them about death. Only once there are two can this change. Ask one for death and the other provides it. The assassin never meets or needs have conversation with the intended victim. It can also change when the asking is for the death of a third person.
You said what they want. A man wanted to serve the people, most wanted death, but another wanted death to the person who wronged him. A man who realized that no matter who their god was, they prayed for death. He heard their prayers came to that conclusion, so he assumed he must be a servant of many gods.
This is the first time I've realized that the Faceless Men would have a serious problem with Beric, Lady Stoneheart, and Robert Strong (and potentially Jon Snow). This opens up so many possibilities for Arya's story.
right! its like it clicked, thats why arya ends up killing the night king. So the show had it right but was just terrible at building the lore around it. God i hope he finishes the books.
I'm not thaty sure. They would have issues with someone preventing them from killing someone (as they are stealing a life from the Many-Faced God). But someone who dies and comes back can be written off as being sent back by the Many-Faced God himself.
The faceless men my not have a problem with Lady Stone Heart, Beric or Jon Snow but they will have a problem with Robert Strong us he was not resurrected by deity.
None of them are brought back by a deity. Fire magic may exist, but that's not evidence of Rhilor. There are singers in the trees, but they are not gods. Euron wants to be seen as an avatar of the storm god, but he is just a man as well.
I’m on the fence about the faceless men being totally against the resurrection of Beric, Lady Stoneheart, Robert Strong and Jon Snow.
Yes, resurrection from death is something that the Faceless Men will fundamentally disagree with as “all men must die” (on a side note, Lady Stoneheart is no man); yet the Faceless Men also believe “all men must serve”. If they believe resurrection of people from death will ultimately deliver death of others then there’s no affront to their ideology as they are doing a service to the many faced god
The rule that the assassin must not know the victim also serves to impede the assassin from killing for his own benefit. As an assassin, Arya wouldn’t be able to kill the people on her list, for example
But she did, not Merryn Trant as in the show but Raff The Sweetling in Braavos in the sample chapter of TWOW. But Trant suffices as well
@@Hochspitz Does she ever effectively/officially become one of the Faceless Men?
They can't be made to take a CONTRACT for it, which they otherwise indiscriminately would do; killing them for free is another thing.
but inso by killing them she cut almost all ties to people knowing her and she knowing them
@@TETASARAIVACS I think sort of.
My hunch is that the Valyrian masters started investigating ways to use their blood magic to achieve some form of immortality - that would certainly get the attention of a cult who believes "all men must die". The Valyrians mastered dragons and a good chunk of Essos, what's left to conquer after that but death itself?
Man, you’re a hell of a storyteller here, my dude! I love your channel because of the research and passion that’s reflected in your telling of these tales! Thank you for what you do!
Arya spent time being blind, and that was part of regular training. I think the odds are good that she is doing regular training with the acting company, since all Faceless Men need some acting skills to go places, and it is easier to be "another" the way an actor does, with walking and makeup and character study than whatever minor surgery and magic combo they use when they reuse a face.
*And I bet the company is going to Westeros with their "Evil Imp" play that she's now playing in!*
It was a metaphore.
To be a high-functioning sociopath, one must transcend both ego and emotion.
'Give a girl a name.'
Clairvoyance is a gift the sociopathic possess.
'Unblinded by both ego, and emotion, my vision becomes clear. I will wear many faces, before I reach my destination. None of them, my own. But I see clearly, my destination, and all the pieces that stand in my way.'
'A man'. Not 'I am'.
High functioning sociopaths don't need acting classes. They need real faces to observe and borrow, and most have plenty by the time they become high functioning. (If they ever do. Most don't make it out of infantility/narcissism, as it leads to their own demise).
I have always wondered if there was some link between the faceless men, and the silent sisters. Both associated with death, and who better to supply them with an endless supply of 'faces' than those who prepare bodies for interment.
Maybe they have an agent in the sisterhood smuggling the faces off to Braavos.
@@nunyabiznes33 one can only hope they have agents everywhere. just in case their service is required.
I dunno but the silent sisters aren't talking
It seems so strange that slaves who died by the thousands, directly as a result of the horrendous conditions in the Valyrian mines would need to pray night after night for escape / salvation / death. Only a being without the prospect of death would need such a service and pray for it so hard. So… the logical explanation (and very GRRM) is that like wights, the slaves of Valyria were dead / reanimated. This was not the case at first, but over time the valyrians worked out how to reanimate slaves to provide a tireless and unending workforce to sate their hunger for wealth / gold etc.
All men DO die. This is natural. This always happens. But the need for them to “must die” can only mean that something was preventing that in the first place. Blood magic / Valyrian sorcery to keep them enthralled. And a literary parallel / opposite to the cold wights of the Others.
Seems to me that all men serving and all men dying are two tenets of the same belief. Service is fine. Service is good. But perpetual service because a man has been raised from the dead to serve indefinitely- that’s not cool. That’s why all men must also die.
Just one guy giving death to people who will die shortly anyway is almost pointless. And certainly not the basis for a fanatical death cult. But a guy who figures out how to permanently end the life of suffering and limitless service - that is the true origin of the faceless men.
Interesting
The slaves weren't praying for eventual death, they were praying for immediate death. Eventual death would come naturally, immediate death was a gift.
Well said
“That’s no basis for a fanatical death cult” ~ Old Westerosi peasant woman
@@hipp0stratus In a situation like a mines of Valyria, death would be nearly instantaneous.
Arya was brought up with the philosophical Stark motto: "the man who passes the sentence must swing the sword."
This is a juxtaposition to the Faceless Men philosophy of assassination, as the logical extension to this is that the man who passes the sentence does *not* swing the sword.
Arya will become conflicted about these 2 contradictory philosophical positions.
true, very interesting
I hope so.
This would make for an awesome book
I like the part of the HBO where they just disappear after Arya steals their powers.
They should have gone fic route and have a bunch of assassins chase after Arya. She has to defeat them one by one
it might have been their plan to have arya kill the night king, that's why they didn't go after her, it was all part of their plan.
The man who called himself the Alchemist killed Pate the Novice at the Citidel, so that guy is on a mission, no way that poor slob was on the assassination list back in Bravos.
Perhaps he is working with Euron.. A faceless man did assassinate Balon and considering how close the islands are to the reach, it's quite possibly the same one. Perhaps the faceless men secretly worship the others. All men must die and all men must serve does sound like the others and the wights and Euron seems fully intent on unleashing chaos upon the world
The Death Of Dragons
@@nunyabiznes33 Yeah, that seems like that is the mission - but Pate is just in the way, that's why he dies, so the FM clearly have leeway to improvise and kill if there is an identity they need to complete it.
@@eric2500 maybe they atone for stuff like this by permanently retiring one persona? But yeah, this is more an infiltration than an assassination mission, probably from the Faceless group itself rather than a customer, they'd definitely take down anyone in the way.
GRRM gets much inspiration from real world history.
Rashid al-Dinan San was a member of a Muslim organization literally called Order of Assassins. They operated for around 300 years during the Crusades.
Sinan was known as, “The Old Man of the Mountain” (kindly old man). Sinan eventually became the leader of this group.
This group often assassinated high level targets like kings. They made an unsuccessful assassination attempt against Edward I of England for example.
Sinan supposedly ordered Saladin’s assassination for some reason. The assassination was unsuccessful as well but there’s a story there that looks ripe for inclusion in GoT.
Requiescat in Pace
Love the livestreams but these are the sort of videos that keep me checking IDG daily. The analysis is second to none.
Nice intro to the Faceless men. It is really sad how D&D completely misunderstood every single thing about the Faceless men in the show.
@@zdeneknovak5276 Writers are not valued because the CEO's don't give a rat's ass about quality and only care about profits. The people at the top are not creative types. They are bean counters. The creatives like Robert here at IDG are passionate about ideas. The showrunners and producers are passionate about dollars...in....their...pockets. My perspective is from America, BTW
@@TonyRedunzo 🎯
@@chachi958-rg8ju Lumping showrunners in with the suits is disingenuous. Showrunners are writers too. It's very easy to point to showrunners who care deeply about the quality of the show they are running. This includes D&D for much of at least the first half of GoT. Many beloved elements are inventions for the show that were not in the book.
@@johnnymittle True. Now, _writing talent,_ is another matter entirely.
As a truism goes, 'never attribute to malice what can be adequately explained by incompetence'.
When you mentioned "heresy" at the end I suddenly got a vision of some off-duty ordo assassinorum cultist watching this video for background noise while doing his weapon rituals and suddenly snapping to attention when he hears the word. "HUH? WHAT, heresy where?"
That would be hilarious because I do most of my activities with videos playing in the background
Has anyone ever thought the many faced god could also apply to money? Coins with different faces on them. It would connect them to the Iron Bank, alao based in Braavos.
I like that idea. Isn't there a theory that the Lannisters "bought" their Valaryian steel sword via a faceless man?
There's imo a very strong implication that some of the Faceless Men training and the council meet underneath the Bank
@ashmeadowphoenix I always thought that the Sealord of Braavos, the Iron Bank and the Faceless Men do have an alliance of sorts, since they do form the backbone of Braavos as a city and what it stands for
The animation throughout these images panning across the screen are fantastic. Nice improvement from your earlier videos already!
Great vid as always Robert / IDG. Look forward to delving deeper with the FM analysis in this series of vids discovering your updated / evolving thoughts on the FM in general and they are certainly an interesting part of the narrative. I do agree overall the FM are a death cult above all else , from their origins / inception to the current narrative timeline that seems their overarching ethos. Their main tenets of bringing / facilitating death and serving the order which in turn serves the Many-Faced God are ever present in the actions and organization of the FM. Between providing a quick death at the House of B&W to those seeking it or carrying out extremely expensive assassination missions , all match up with those tenets.
I think the confusion (at least imo) that happens from many is conflating what they are hired to do as them being complicit , agreeing / disagreeing or more a role in those plots beyond being hired. What they are hired to do by the Iron Bank , Bravoosi top brass , or any super wealthy individual who can hire them doesn't imo uncover some complex hidden FM agenda. I think their M.O. is simply to serve the Many-Faced God by providing / facilitating death (which those assassination missions are part of) and making sure the natural order of death is not being disrupted. Thats where i think their involvement in the narrative comes into play , investigating those cheating death be it wights & resurrections (via different magical mediums) which is subverting death / the natural order of death in general and taking actions to wipe out those partaking in such practices which they will view as unacceptable heresy. I do believe that is their overarching aim and the actions to achieve it that they have done and will continue to do will be shown to be in service to that goal above all else.
Really needed these videos. This whole arc has bothered me for years.
The Iron Bank and Faceless Men have a symbiotic relationship.
The Bank launders the _massive_ payouts of clients who can "afford" to pay with mere gold, meanwhile the Bank gets some stealthy help 'enforcing' its loans.
Lmao, they don't need to launder any money
@@pyropulseIXXI Yeah they do.
I've always felt that the Many-Faced God of Death feels like a great name for the leader of the Others, an evil force controlling the bodies of the dead to try and destroy the living. The creed "All men must die. All Men must serve." also seems like exactly what the leader of the others would be instructing the wights. I wouldn't be surprised if the Faceless Men have something to do with the long night in the past and the present of the story.
Maybe that's why they work with Euron🤔. Very interesting
@@olofacosta3192 or the real reason the doom happened like Dany they justified it saying they were slavers calling out the evil actions of said target but what about subconsciously what did they gain
@@wolfsbanealphas617 it might be for more sinister reasons. What if they wanted to destroy Valyria as a massive sacrifice to many faced god. What if they're about to the same to old town?
@@olofacosta3192 through euron who needs an heir worthy of him as payment to the many faced god he serves ten thousand gods after all
😮
I’ve always wondered how Jaqen could’ve possible been captured. He seems impossibly skillful
I imagine he let himself be captured for one reason or another.
Faceless men are trained to assume any role in order to get close enough to assassinate their target. Sometimes that may mean assuming the role of a prisoner.
He was hired to kill the night king, but canceled his plans when he met Arya, then manipulated her into killing the NK for him. 🎉
The group was bound for the nights watch. Who was supposed to go with them? He had just lost his head. I think he was hired by someone maybe the Lannister’s or Baelish. We see how they give out multiple assignments at once so it would seem like Jaqen was given multiple tasks in Westeros.
My final take is he got planted there somehow.
Fantastic storytelling.
I've considered them sort off avatars of death. An aspect. And as death simply IS, i understand the nonjudgemental behaviour. And also why undead would be a problem. It upsets the natural balance of things.
I also think Arya indeed became a faceless woman, who now plays the role of Arya. Her last encounter seemed to convince Jaqen. Though that's the tv series. Still working on the books....
Also, i think it is logical they don't want to lose everything they were,mif that was even possible, ANYONE could be a faceless man. But they are carefully chosen.
Lastly, Subbed 😊
I think they are all faceless but just are too terrified to realize it. They play the game to protect themselves from the void. The goal of training is not to become faceless it’s to realize and accept you actually are.
Hope you’re feeling better Robert
I love that you did this now, I am mid way through re reading A Feast for Crows and was wondering about the wider lore about the Faceless Men!
This feels like the proper place to state I've had a tattoo from Collar bone to collar bone that says "Valar Morghulis" for 10 years.
are u familiar with "memento mori" tattoos?
@@horvathsogranfume658 I'm familiar with the Latin phrase and its theme in literature. Are you referencing the tattooing of the actual phrase or a soecific imagery that symbolizes it?
I first read the SoIaF series in 2010. Read Dance when it came out land I just loved the language of it and how people used it in the story. Especially the connection to Arya. So I had my gf tattoo it on me. It's the only SoIaF related tattoo I have though. As of now.
I also have "And though she be but little, she is Fierce" with my youngest daughters name on my neck, I have "Something Wicked this way comes" on a banner with some witch themed imagery on my ribs, and I have an "Artful Dodger" themed tattoo on my torso. And I have portraits of Dickens and Shakespeare (with a hidden "code" in the Shakespeare portrait).
All that to say, I'm a writer and a literature nerd so when I read something that resonates with me I usually have it tattooed on me forever.
Great topic. Can't wait for the next one. Thanks a bunch!
Thank you for creating another excellent video Robert. I only wish they came around more often.
I think the entire story is an exposition of a series of superficial events ultimately directed by the gods, in a battle between the gods for control of the world (for souls, worship, etc), sloppily excuted by the imperfect creatures of this world.
I just found you! You videos are amazing!!!! Can’t wait to go through every single one
You're top tier sir. Thanks for all your work.
So excited for the faceless men content. I think they’re really interesting 🤔. Great video! Hope you are feeling better 😊
Fascinating Robert! Can't wait for more! Thank you!
I truly enjoyed hearing your unique perspective, as always you've done a great job. Thank you 😊
Supreme logic here as always go robert cos we love you 😂❤
Any explanation is better than the TV show!
lol, his explanation is only slightly different from that of the show.
What intrigues me the most at this moment is the indication that a faceless man is in the citadel. I hope it's Jaqen H'ghar (I really liked the character).
Hopefully we can see some of this in the next book.
If the next book ever comes out lol 😅
I would be super happy with a mini spinoff show or a prequel show about this subject.
Fascinating, when I saw this title I immediately wanted to watch it
Another amazing video Robert! Great work
Even tho I already know all this I still watch every video
What do they want? Quite simple The Winds of Winter and A Dream of Spring…
I just binge watched 7 seasons of GoT for the first time (I'm in season 8 now). Your content expanding GRRM's universe is top notch! Maybe I should wait until I am done the series to avoid spoilers but I just have so many questions!
Nice! Looking forward to the rest of this series!!
Valar dohaeris will always be profound to me for someone who accepts death inevitable.
Thank you for making this video. Arya killing the night King makes a lot more sense to me now
The hero we need right now.
Great video, loved the older video series on this topic and look forward to go through the theories again. But also, "the RUclipsrs are remaking their videos" is kind of a "George, please" moment when waiting for the main series to continue :-/
Love this. When will the next videos be out?
Brilliant, loved watching this. Can't wait for more!
Yum! Well explicated synopsis and fun theorizing
Favorite part of the universe. Shout out to Frank Herbert’s tleilaxu face dancers. Scytale’s ghola lives whoop.
7:25 I think this "rule" is being misunderstood. Most likely, it really means that the faceless man cannot be assigned a target his current persona knows personally. To receive that assignment, the current persona would need to die and a new one generated (along with all the time and cost that implies). However, the scene is written in a way to make the reader think it's deeper even though it goes against what Arya has been experiencing with attempts to get rid of "Arya" and become no one. No one would personally know the family or friends of Arya Stark.
I do wonder if there's a level of training that involves a acolyte given an assignment that personally known to the person No One once was, but is no longer. Similar to how the Unsullied are required to kill their own puppy on command to pass a part of their training.
I like the idea that it's based on the current persona. For one it would stop them from being a suspect because they'd be forewarned and able to have an alibi. Also, if people knew that was a rule, it would allow a faceless man to more easily be friendly with strangers, as people would know that anyone trying to make friends couldn't be there to kill them.
This is my theory too. Jacquen becomes no one after killing the guys to free them from Harrenhall. So Arya could still kill her enemies but just not in the persona of Arya.
That's a good explanation, AND a sort of kinda slightly contradictory rationale that you'd very much expect to find in a cult or secret society of any kind.
And yeah, the trainee/ acolyte/novice/postulant/ grad student/ cadet/ grunt/ etcetera has to be challenged and find a way to prove their devotion and they want to know the wash outs early!
Great video as always! I personally think there are a few characters who could have been a faceless man all along and we don’t know yet
Examples?
@@olofacosta3192 David Benioff and D. B. Weiss. They somehow managed to kill an entire series.
@@Maria_Erias lol. All shows must die I guess
The notion that Littlefinger is a faceless man makes a bunch of sense, if we knew wtf the faceless men actually wanted.
Also, the idea that Arya who came back to Westeros is actually the Waif would be awesome.
@@olofacosta3192 Well in the show at least, when asked who she is, Quaithe answers, "Noone." It is possible, I guess -;))
I enjoyed this. Thanks. Peace.
I love the point that their motto says everything on their fate, given the main antagonist is undeath
Flawless as usual. You are the master.
i dont think they are entirely divorced from a social justice motive. Likely the only reason some slave in valeria was receptive to the idea of mercy killing his own people was because of how brutal life was for slaves. And if the faceless men helped cause the doom on purpose that is for sure above and beyond their MO. To me that suggests they were extra motivated.
Great content as always
I think the faceless men had the purpose of guiding and protecting fate. I think Jaqen was several characters in the story all moving events like pieces on a chess board. They move events towards a predetermined but somewhat uncertain end. They are the active where the guy in the tree seemed to be the passive. The events of the story play out over and over like a multiverse. This is evidenced by “hold the door”
Balance? I found their philosophy to be very Buddhist, even if twisted. Their life mission seems to be honest when compared with the other factions in Westeros.
I am going to enjoy this, Robert, thank you. 😊
Better than the 9 new gods for sure
@Gonk Droid It's The Faith Of The Seven. 😉
I know, I done messed up
@@spencerallison3196 the Seven don't do shit
I dont think the Faceless Men want anything. Death comes us all, one way or another and sometimes they take an active role in who checks out early. A secret agenda wouldn't make sense for something that was inevitable, like ...death. I can also see them totally losing their shit over undead.
Lovely. Love these guys. Please tell me more
I'm seeing more and more videos in recent times that appear to justify how the TV show ended; Arya killing the NK, Bran on the throne, Daenerys going psycho and being killed by Jon. It does seem as if D&D were following GRRM's notes, but were clueless in getting to the end point in a convincing manner.
A lot of these ideas could have been really hard hitting given a few more seasons and decent writing, but had terrible execution.
It's been 6 months today since George mentioned he only had 500 pages to write, how many pages do you think he had left to write before he finishes it?
Do you think he will finish writing it in 2023?
69 pages left
edit: and no, he will never finish
No, late 24, publish in 25. Write anything complex?
You'll know the last bit is the hardest.
Honestly am really curious to learn what the hell Jaqen and the faceless are doing in the citadel
Whatever it is you can be assured it has to do with Magic that the "mainstream" Maesters say doesn't exist. Such as the Black Candles that have started to burn again. If Jaqen was there to kill, he would have done so already after taken the persona of that Acolyte. But instead he seems to be there to steal.....something.
@@Mutiny960 blood and fire aka the death of dragons is the most popular theory. I personally believe he's there to use the book+the dragon egg he allegedly got from Euron to blow up the citadel. Why exactly I unfortunately don't quite know.
@@olofacosta3192 Quick Theory of the top of my head, it's to kill Euron. He wants to be a God right? Gods don't DIE. Seems like a person the (FM) would keep a spy watching. One of his tongueless slaves. They would know he has the Dragon Horn, and will seek to convert a Dragon, so they need to kill a Dragon.
Why not kill him now? Well he hasn't done anything wrong...yet. He's still mortal and he kills A LOT of people which makes the Faceless God happy. Seems like an insurance policy. If they want to kill the God Euron (if he ever makes it that far) then they will need to kill his Dragon First and probably have some other Classified information hidden in the Citadel about killing "immortals". AKA countering Magick from Asshai, which I'm sure Euron is planning on using as part of his Godhood ritual.
@@olofacosta3192 The Faceless don't have reasons to blow up the Citadel. It's not like the Faceless is actively trying to bring back magic into the world and they see the Citadel as an obstacle.
I'm more towards the theory that they're planning to either steal or kill Dany's dragons.
Dresden files. Please start a Dresden files series!
Oh friends, oh neighbours, I would DEVORE those.
If the Faceless Men think something that cannot die, like the white walkers, shouldn't exist and they might want to destroy them because is a threat to the natural order of things, does that make them the ASoIaF equivalent of vampire hunters? That their main goal is to kill inmortals?
I agree with all but one of challenges you mention for the faceless men's credo coming in the story's future. I don't personally think they'd care much about the Others, because Wights are just animated corpses; what made them people IS gone, the person IS dead. The Others just make use of what's left behind, much like the Faceless Men use a corpse's face for their magics, or that is my interpretation of what the Others do, at least.
Great video!
The TV series ending makes sense now, in the grand scheme of things that is. No one will ever be able to make sense of the last three seasons...
I don't know what you're talking about. There are only 5 Seasons after which the show was cancelled.
There is no death, there is only the Force
Creed of high-functioning sociopaths. It is the temple of sociopathy. (To be grey. Between back and white). One must shed both ego and emotion to achieve the high-functioning state.
Arya being blinded, is a metaphore.
Only when she ascends her egotistical and emotional attachments and compulsions, (her list), is she qualified by the creed of sociopaths, (and given back her sight).
You cannot wear other's faces, if you cannot let go of your own. (Anti-narcissism)
Anyone see the similarities between the kindly man and the 3 eyed crow?
Especially the worm coming out of an eye socket in both of them.
Id love to know how many faceless men you think there are, I don't remember ever hearing about how big the cult is. Is it in the 10's or 100's? how many priests have we seen in the same room at the same time? I could see them being like the balrogs from LOTR where tolkein first thought of armys of them, then changed his mind to say he doesn't think there were ever more than 7
I think there are a good amount of them. I mean Arya joined quite quickly and they do have a massive temple. But there are probably few who are as experienced and skillful as the kindly man and Jaqen
The faceless men are all the same time traveling Walder
"Eleven servants of the Many-Faced God gathered that night beneath the temple, more than she had ever seen together at one time." Arya, ADWD
Well with Jaqen it's 12, so I guess around this number, maybe a few more who are on other missions
@@Yuki-fm5hr Makes sense since GRRM takes a lot from RL history. 12 is a sacred number in a lot of cultures and 12 is also the number of disciples that Jesus had. It would make more literary sense if Jaqen was included in the 11 though. That would make Arya number 12, aka their version of Judas, the one destined to betray her oaths.
@@Mutiny960 wow that's really brilliant, thank you! That just means that we don't have any more potential faceless men lurking in the shadows somewhere else if that's the case, hm...
Apparently THIS is my 5,000th liked video on RUclips. Completely by luck that I even noticed that as I saved this video to my watch later & my liked list was beneath.
Loving all the GOT content
Robert, what happened to your Travelers Guide To Westeros videos? I can't find that playlist anymore!
Love this channel
1:41 He looks like Dr. Doom 😅
I refuse to believe that I was the only moron checking why his nose was bleeding...
I wonder if they will appear in HOTD? I understand the part they played in training Arya but I’m intrigued to see if we see them. Also is there a link between the faceless men and Blood and Cheese? I maybe way off but could be a way to link them 🤷🏼♀️
Can’t help but feel that Ned knew men from bravos like the man who taught Arya to fight or water dance, I can’t help but think he was a faceless man & was the same man who road in the cage on their way to the wall, it’s like he was there to watch over Arya Stark, was that man Regar or Ned? I’d love to fine videos of reading out of the actual books of The Game of Thrones….
All Me must serve kinda sounds like slavey lol
Tbh I don't know the lore that well at all, but what you said at 7:40 I took that more as the person the faceless man was disguised as knows the target; so the job would be more difficult.
But again, I don't know what I'm talking about. Lol
It is pretty clear they have Euron's dragon egg, and Jaqen is in Oldtown looking on information on, I don't know, how to control an existing dragon or breed their own.
The design makes it feel like Martin was a gamer at some point.
This makes a lot of sense as to why Arya through coincidence or fate finally obliterates the Night's King. Which would mean the faceless men are older than Valyria & before the age of heroes.
Not going to lie, but these guys feel like a massive plot hole. I mean how is it, during Aegon's conquest, that the other kings in Westeros pooled their resources together and hire these guys to kill the Targaryens?
The invasion happened pretty quickly, so very doubtful there would have been time, and only a few of the Kings would have had anything like the sort of money required - the Faceless men would have an extraordinarily high price to kill a man as powerful as Aegon. And what then? His sister-wives would simply have revenged his death and carried on with the conquest, no doubt inflicting horrendous vengeance on those who organised the assassination.
Can’t even imagine how much it would cost to kill them AND their dragons
Not enough money in the world
Simple answer would be distrust between the different kings. Only the Lannister and Gardener Kings were able to make accord, right? Perhaps they did not have the funds between them and could not find another backer
How do we know some Faceless Men weren’t hired and unsuccessful? Kinda hard to kill a Targaryen mounted on a dragon.
What happened with the travelers guide series. I can't find it anywhere?
Do you think "becoming no one" could be about not be one person but instead many people instead? Cause that way the whole "can't assassinate someone they know" thing still works cause they aren't no one but many different identities, it also fits with the many faces god idea that their servants are all also many people
Honestly their history, background, and beliefs sounds very Assassins Creed-like
Also, if y’all are ever down for some epic horror, The Oursider has some insane, fantasy horror aspects that I think would intrigue you two.
It is sad that I don't care about ASOIAF any more. I have no hope for the series to be finished.
Your videos stopped appearing in my feed. Now I have lots of content to catch up on. So not all bad news.
What happened to the travelers guide to Westeros videos?
The rule is about the persona not killing someone they know or to kill someone that knowns their persona
The faceless man did not kill the targs because if such an attempt failed at the hight of their power bravos would have burned plus I don’t think money would be the price they ask for such a task
The idea that a Faceless Man cannot kill someone they know isn't how they started out according to their own tale. If there is only one Faceless Man and someone asks them for their own death then they know that person. If they didn't know them then they couldn't be talking with them about death.
Only once there are two can this change. Ask one for death and the other provides it. The assassin never meets or needs have conversation with the intended victim.
It can also change when the asking is for the death of a third person.
"Oh boy, here I go killin' again!"
cut it out!
You said what they want. A man wanted to serve the people, most wanted death, but another wanted death to the person who wronged him. A man who realized that no matter who their god was, they prayed for death. He heard their prayers came to that conclusion, so he assumed he must be a servant of many gods.
How do they decide how much to charge?