Why didn't the Targaryens prepare Westeros for an attack from the Others?
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- Опубликовано: 25 янв 2024
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The Targaryens saw the end of the series got horribly disappointed and lost interest.
So Dan and Dave are to blame for the world being unprepared for the War of Winter. I can readily buy that. lol
If they saw the TV show I agree. If they saw the book they need to give George a call so he can finish it finally 😂
UNDER-RATED COMMENT
I like this, if you can't alter a terrible future you would become apathetic or mad.
You say Targaryens, but you mean GRRM. I find it fascinating that people are so into him that they think he hasn't totally checked out. He wasn't a great world-builder in the first place, and once he got paid he cared even less.
You could also view the general lack of Targaryen action as a reflection of how people often deal with grave, but long term, problems. You can fully believe that something dreadful will happen, but still devote far more effort to solving minor shorter term issues than dealing with the dragon down the road. The present has an immediacy and an inertia that can be very hard to beat. It might not be a rational evaluation of priorities, but it is how humans typically react.
Also, he didn't for certain know what exactly the problem was. Prophecy can be vague st times, and all he knew was that the "Terrible Thingl" that Westeros would be fighting was coming from beyond The Wall.
It's a little like most religious people in our world. Part of my family and friends are christian and I never understood, how you can really believe this stuff and think you are going for eternal life in heaven but on the other hand don't devote your life to it. I mean, if this religious stuff was real, I would act the way the religion wanted and not care too much about minor daily struggles. Still, it seems like humans don't work that way.
Expanding upon that idea it's also much easier to devote time and effort to an immediate small problem because you can see an immediate result in your actions. Where with large and or abstract problems they can seem as almost insurmountable especially since you can only take baby steps towards its resolution. I think that global warming is a great example. Political and scientific views aside if you have a system in place and are told that in 100 years that system will cause destabilization for your descendants while you currently are not feeling its immediate effect, its much more difficult to get people to rally behind a solution for it. Also like with global warming you will have some who deny it's an issue and think it's ridiculous to make preparations for it.
global warming for example
We all die anyway. Waste the resources on those that live now, not wasting it trying to fight the inevitable. Death comes for us all. One day no matter what we do, everyone will die. That's the Long Night.
The dagger, when placed on fire, showed the inscription "One Ring to rule them all, One Ring to find them, One Ring to bring them all and in the darkness bind them"
…
Bushit
Keeping in mind that prophecies are often misinterpreted in the series, I think Aegon had one of his own. The basics of the prophecy are likely "Others are coming, eternal winter, the only chance is for Westeros to unite, and the Blood of the Dragon will be crucial". But that doesn't necessarily mean Westeros has to be politically unified under a Targaryen monarchy. Aegon could have perhaps gotten the seven kingdoms to forge a grand alliance while retaining their autonomy. This done he could have sworn his sword (and dragon) to the Nights Watch, to be on the front line while each kingdom has its own contribution to make. But I think Aegon saw the dream through the filter of his own ambition, that whatever dread the dream gave him, it was also an opportunity for glory. One which likely have shed far more blood than the more benign options may have.
And with House of the Dragon showing that Daemon was never told of the prophecy, I give solid odds this will be the point it's forgotten. Rhaenyra is going to suffer a lot of changes in who her heir is, and before she can even think of confiding the information to her son Aegon she's captured and executed. It's going to be the longterm tragedy of this show I think, important information being lost because of what amounts to petty squabbling.
I think this is the reason. Rhaenrya did not get a chance to pass the prophecy on and Aemon never knew it.
@@malcolmheather3204 Rhaegar found the prophecy written in a scroll in the Red Keep. Also, the Mad King Aerys married his sister because a witch told him the Prince that Was Promised would be born in his bloodline. It was not forgotten until Aerys and Rhaegar were killed.
@@ryankwon8785
The witch told Egg that
@@Richard_Nickerson My bad.
In true ASOIAF fashion, he probably received his vision in the form of oblique symbols and half-communicated ideas. I can't blame him for jumping to conclusions 😅
And yep, I think this is the moment it's forgotten and that you described the exact tragedy we're hearing towards.
Robert, it’s because you think on this “stuff” more than is probably healthy for you, that we keep coming back. Outstanding work!!
He's PERFECT for it. I actually got to meet him at Con 2019. Nashville. He's tall. I AM short tho. I've been following him longer than I can remember. I tried to use his videos as inspiration when I tried making them🙋🏽♀️🐦⬛🐉✌️
@@ShadeoftheEvening I agree
@@Wallrusface that's all I was interested in doing it for. Hobby. Fun. I did streams on Dunk and Egg. Made a couple of Westworld videos. Need a better computer. I haven't made one in years. I kinda had a falling out with a group. I think I have 150 subs😁 Robert is the MASTER storyteller and story "analyst". I never got in it to make $. Some people can and that's great. Have a great one✌️🖤🐉🐦⬛
When did the Targaryens lose their knowledge of Valyrian magic and technology? They fled the freehold expecting a disaster, and had years to bring whatever knowledge they wanted to Dragonstone, but they never seemed to use it. For example, imagine if Aegon had tried building a Demon Road in place of the King's Road. Did they lose it in the few generations since they came to Dragonstone, or did they not use it because there would have been religious pushback?
We don't know why they fled nothing is confirmed in all likely hood they were just exiled and got lucky
Most of there magic was pretty evil and I think the Targs wouldn't want to repeat it. It's almost like asking why don't America have as good architecture as Europe. They couldn't bring EVERYTHING over and they were also the weakest dragon riding family so they wouldn't be able to bring over the best sorcerrors or engineers
Eh, they were a minor family at the time--and even if they had been more powerful, they still couldn't possibly have had all the knowledge of Valyria's magic and technology, much less the means to replicate it all. It's also possible that for all of Valyria's power and glory, there could be more than a little exaggeration about them.
99% of dragons were gone by the time they ruled,magic was already almost gone by that point. Most likely.
Targaryens appear to be an average/minor dragon rider family in the time of the freehold. They aren’t known for being powerful/influential prior to the doom.
Important to remember that lots of Valyrians actually survived the doom, with many living in Lys and Volantis. They just weren’t the powerful dragon rider families, who seem to have specifically controlled the magic/technology.
The other important detail regarding Targaryens and the threat of the Others is Alysanne's account of her visit to the Wall (the only instance, iirc, of a Targaryen actually bringing a dragon to the Wall). She says that she tried multiple times to get Silverwing to fly her past the Wall and on to the north, but that Silverwing refused each time. So it seems like there's some sort of magical force preventing or deterring dragons from passing north of the Wall, which means any Targaryen attempts at a pre-emptive strike or at least trying to reconnoiter the threat would be impossible.
When I first read about Silverwing's misgivings, I wondered if dragons could just take a wide arc by sea and get north of the Wall without going near the Wall itself. Seems to be what Dany did in order to rescue Jon & Co. (needs to be confirmed by GRRM, though). So why didn't someone think of that and at least give it a try? If it didn't work, so be it. Targs were the only people who had the means to do proper aerial recon without warging, like you said. Go spy out the enemy. They really missed a huge opportunity while they still had dragons and the Others/wights had fewer members.
@@melissablackwoodIt would have been a catastrophe if a wildling warg managed to take control of a dragon which almost certainly would happen
@@SherlockHolmesb-kp4ru Yikes, bad indeed, but that hadn't even occurred to me. Could a warg be powerful enough to control a dragon like that? The Targaryens can barely handle them. Imagine the mental fight a dragon would give a warg. Zaldrizes buzdari iksos daor. (Unless it's dead, smirks the Night King.)
Explain how Hardhome was destroyed by Dragonfire then. They managed to fly all that way north of The Wall just fine.
@@peterg9729that's the show and not the books, and the shows last seasons don't exist.
Satisfied?
I've watched a LOT of videos from a lot of creators but yours stand out in stark contrast. Your opinions are well founded and clearly based on a strong foundational knowledge of ASOIAF, youre concise, your videos are thought provoking (so much so, I find myself reexamining parts of the books) you're not redundant, nor are you needy. *FFS, I cannot stand the multitude of ways people will try to grow their viewership, be it redundancy, ASOIAF-bait, or begging on screen. Thank you for the fresh material. It's top notch. Subscribed.
Very well said. Your thoughts on Robert's theories are as concise as you believe his to be, and I couldn't agree with you more.
I'll hop on this train too. Shit drives me nuts. SMASH THAT LIKE BUTTON
Hard pass
I used to try and use Robert as inspiration for making videos. I haven't done it in years. I did get the chance to actually meet him in 2019. Nashville. He's tall. Or maybe I'm just really short. Been watching him for years now. He called me OG😁 He just has "it". Voice, brains, his way of wording it. Using bright colors for lettering. Him and Alt Shift X are the best. Imo. I haven't even watched this yet, but I'm going down the list of vids. I'm sure it's great. He's been picking excellent topics. Have a great one y'all 🙋🏽♀️❄️🖤✌️
You said that perfectly
I am now just imagining a Mad Targaryen emulating when Caligula declared war on Neptune and had soldiers attack the waves. just instead it is an army marching up and slashing at snow and trees
That's an excellent comparison! I've been recommending whenever I can that fans of "A Game of Thrones' check out at least the TV series (if not the books), 'I, Claudius', which in part tells the story of Caligula (among other terrible Roman emperors), including a short scene involving Caligula's war on Neptune. GRRM was pretty clearly a fan of 'I, Claudius', ASOIAF has some striking similarities!
@@pietrayday9915 "I, Claudius" is a very unreliable source, particularly the parts about Gaius caligula, and Claudius himself. R. Graves even admitted that many stories therein were his fabrications to make the book more interesting and macabre.
The Targaryens kinda forgot about The Others.
I really appreciate that you give a shout out to other creators that talk about topics before you do.
George kinda forgot about finishing the books
George kinda forgot that Dany should be in Westeros 5/7ths of the way through the story. And he also forgot there is no way he gets her there in the sixth book either. On her way, maybe, but not there and landed.
@kennyhudson9201 the story as he imagined it in the 90s isn't even more than 1/3 in
He wanted Dany to go east before she goes to Westeros
@@00dude3Dany stuck in the Dothraki sea forever. He ain’t finishing a damn thing. I’ve given up
@@00dude3 he'll be dead before it's finished, tragic.
that bastard is going to die before he finishes the story, he is first in my book of despised authors.
Love how you gave a shoutout to another channel that you took inspiration from. I recently listened to a LOTR video that sounded quite close to one of your own videos, but had no credit given. I appreciate you being honest and giving attention to others putting out good content as well. Cheers!
I'm willing to bet it's going to be a big moment of House of the Dragon that the line of prophecy gets broken during the dance, perhaps even ending with Aegon III looking at the dagger, having no idea of it's importance. As soon as they had that lingering shot in the carriage of Aegon II staring at his fathers dagger with no context to what it actually represented it confirmed it in my mind that that's what they're going for
It’s so fun to hear about and think about this world. Your efforts to bring topics and scenarios to us is very much appreciated.
A few speculations: Valyrian prophecies are most likely the common chorus in a song with multiple verses. So, The Prince or Princess Who Was Promised may be referring to more than one person. If Jacaerys Velaryon and Sara Snow had a kid, and that kid or its descendants married into House Stark, then it might follow that Arya Stark would have been a likely candidate (considering she killed the Night King with the Valyrian steel dagger). This would also lead to at least two of the Three Eyed Ravens (Brynden Rivers and Brandon Stark, the latter later becoming King) being of Targaryen lineage. Likewise, Daenerys and Jon Snow could also be considered candidates for obvious reasons. If Cersei, Jamie, and Tyrion Lannister are actually the bastard issue of Aerys II and Joanna Lannister, they could be candidates as well (as Cersei would have been the Targaryen descendant in the throne when the Long Night happened). Gendry Baratheon has two drops (at least two) of Targaryen blood via Aerion (son of Daemion) Targaryen and Rhaelle Targaryen. If Brienne of Tarth has Targaryen lineage....you get the idea. And this doesn't even begin to cover the other Houses that have been confirmed as having Targaryen blood, such as Houses Valaryon, Hightower, Otherys, Longwaters, Plumm, Penrose, Martell, Blackfyre (whatever female descendants are left), whoever Saera Targaryen's three kids were, the Targaryen descendants whose branches of the family tree remain unknown, other dragonseed descendants, etc.
While Valyrian prophecies are true, they're vague enough to be subject to interpretation and may be repeatable (think about the Valerian fire mage prophecy about the gold of Casterly Rock leading to the downfall of Valyria or Valyrians -- It certainly holds true with Tywin Lannister helping to bring down Aerys II, and Tyrion Lannister's role in bringing down Daenerys.)
Keep in mind also , that many things in the show were not from the book and so should not be considered at all. Primarily, therd was no "Night King" in the book. There was only the *Night's* King. That apostrophe makes a world oof difference, as the former was thd head of the WWs, but the latter was the 13th Lord Commander of the Night's Watch, who lay with a strange woman who had blue eyes and very pale skin. It doesn't directly say she was a WW or even a Wight, but supposedly she bore him a child, seemed to control him and led to him killing/sacrificing men of the Night's Watch. Eventually all this was discovered and both the woman and the LC were killed and the spell broken.
In the show, the Night King was the original White Walker who led and controlled sll the other Wights and White Walkers. He turned Crasters baby boys into WWs. But again, he didn't exist in the books so Arya couldn't have killed him.
Everything in the books though, points to Jon being the one who will save Westeros. How exactly he does it we don't know. Obviously he'll unite various leaders of Westeros and the WWs will have to be killed, but there will have to be a way to make sure that they never return and break the spell or magic thst causes the seasons to ladt for years in turn break the spell, or destroy the magic that causes the Land of Always Winter to be permanently frozen and return it to its natural state where it has four seasons like the rest of Westeros. The title of the 4th book "A Dream of Spring" is both literal and metaphorical. The literal meaning is the return of Spring and all four seasons. It is also a metaphor for psychological rebirth. A restoration of happiness, hope and an end to the war(s) that began when Ned was arrested and the long fight against the WWs
On my video you used for this, the vast majority of the negative responses aren't really quibbling with the logic of how yeah it makes sense that would be passed down and why the Targaryens dropped the ball. A lot are more "I get all that, I still don't like it". Which is not really the response I was expecting, I was sure if I just laid out how it all fits together elegantly and with a human perspective folks would come around to how it's actually a really cool idea in the show and books that allows you to see the Targaryen dynasty not as a bunch of random characters but powerful people linked by a shared purpose they kept secret which explains much of their bizarre behavior. Especially when I realized it's already in the books, most fans just wrote it off as a rumor. But ah....not as much as I thought when I wrote and made that video.
And also people don't understand how GRRM writes anyway, throwing around the word "retcon" like he doesn't make it up as he's writing each book. He's not Brandon Sanderson, he abandons previous ideas and plots and comes up with new one constantly during the writing process. He's just really really good at making sure the reader normally doesn't notice unless they look too hard. Like we do.
Imo people don't like it because prophecy smacks to much of tolkien-esque fantasy and a lot of folks are invested in this being the opposite on some level.
@@specialnewb9821 Lord of the Rings didn't have any prophecies about how hobbits were necessary to defeat Sauron.
@@clownpendotfart my dude Gandalf said Bilbo was meant to find the ring, Elrod said Frodo was meant to carry it. Aragorn had prophecies tied to him. The Witch King and Glorfindel.
That prophecy exists, is true is what I'm getting it
@@specialnewb9821 Aragorn did have prophecies, but not ones about him killing Sauron. Gandalf figured Bilbo was meant to have the ring after the fact, there was no prophecy preceding that. Same with Frodo.
The prophecy never gets past Aenys.....it makes no sense
Me personally I think it's just a bad retcon that the showrunners of HOTD put into make it connect to game of thrones. Yes George signed off on it, but I don't think aegon had a prophecy on a knife, it was just doesn't fit when you think about it contextually.😅
It also feels like its trying to make the horrible Conquest feel "Noble" in a way, like he did it for a Prophecy rather than any of the other reasons he did before this was put into the show
agreed.
its definitely a retcon but it was GRRM's creation / idea that HotD brought to life and tried to make work. Not HotD's idea that GRRM signed off on. GRRM literally teased this in 2018 when Fire and Blood was released with those quotes from GRRM roughly saying "some say Aegon I knew about the Others / White Walkers prior to the Conquest and were part of the motivation driving him" thats not the exact quote(s) but something close to that. Still a retcon but it was GRRM's that he chose to reveal via HotD rather than TWoW which has taken forever and still not released. Though some aspects like the dagger , i agree will likely not have much significance in the books ; the prophecy / Aegon's dream is from GRRM but certain aspects how its presented on HotD has not all been confirmed to be canon in the text. Like the dagger or even the exact transmission of this knowledge etc.
@@owenbridgersthe conquest wasn't really that horrible the faith militant uprising, dance of dragons and first blackfaire rebellion were way worse ,also it's canonically stated in fire and blood that westsros before the conquest was worse then post conquest it brought peace westsros as a whole had never seen so it was more of a noble act then not I guess it's hard for you to believe that not all wars are bad .
@@thatoneblackdude3333 It is stated in Fire and Blood? A book written by a servant of the victors? LOL. Of course they would say it is worse, to justify their foreign invasion and subjugation of the natives, via use of weapons of mass destruction. How can a offensive war against people who didn't attack you at all not be bad? I do find that hard to believe, and it sounds like something people who believe in superior peoples/races would say.
I think it's most likely that the prophecy was lost during the Dance of the Dragons, when Rhaenyra was killed before she could tell her last surviving child (as far as she knew) about the prophecy. Or maybe she was only able to give him a hurried, incomplete explanation, which he was too young and distressed to fully grasp.
The bigger question is "Why was the prophecy such a big damn secret?" Why were only two Targaryens at a time (king and heir) allowed to know it? Why couldn't Aegon I have hired minstrels to make up songs and spread the prophecy across the land, which you'd think would make unifying the Seven Kingdoms under Targaryen rule much easier. After all, by surviving the Doom because of a dream, the Targaryens had a proven track record for accurate prophecy. What better way to reduce resistance to Targaryen rule? It wouldn't have been enough alone, but they did have dragons to back it up.
Or if for some reason Aegon and his sister-queens didn't think it was a good idea, they could have at least tried telling every mentally-competent Targaryen at adulthood, so that an unexpected death wouldn't break the chain of transmission. And they could have clarified their rules of succession at the same time, preventing anything like the Dance of the Dragons from ever happening. The Targaryen faith in their precognitive dreams seemed to prevent them from perceiving pitfalls that any critical thinker could see.
At first i didn't really like the prophecy , mainly because i preferred the ambiguity rather than clarifying the Conquest was a more noble somewhat (obviously not entirely) justified pursuit. My head-canon i preferred more a "you broke it , you bought it" approach ; that eventually Aegon / Targs found out about the northern threats after the Conquest and it became their problem to eventually deal with. And i liked the subjective questioning how justified the Conquest was or not. But GRRM knows much better than me what to do with his own universe. Though regardless even before the reveal on HotD , was clear evidence of Targ prophetic connections quite early in their dynasty. Jaehaerys & Alysanne (Alysanne especially) tried to enact positive reforms and support for the North , NW / The Wall ; even having the kingsroad include the North / northern destinations as well. And seemingly with this prophetic knowledge potentially lost likely around the DotD and likely again with Baelor I's widespread book / text destruction ; there were Targ efforts to rediscover and figure these prophecies out - Aerys I , Bloodraven , Egg / his brothers , Jarhaerys II likely as well , Maester Aemon and Rhaegar etc.
Though also Aegon I for example had his own problems in the south ; the dream may have been somewhat vague. If he knew there was a threat and mainly had to unify Westeros that was his main aim. It took Aegon roughly 15 years just to make peace with Dorne. And seemed he was trying to solidify alliances and unity most of his reign. And if AT1 found common prophetic ground with Torrhen he may have felt the North , NW / the Wall was in good hands while Aegon dealt with southern affairs. Though of course he could have personally ventured up North way before his last progress / literally decades later , to take more of an interest. But he was quite occupied down south as well.
Also , the Others were seemingly dormant in a sense , we do not know exactly when they reactivated , so besides support and interest (which was given or not given in varying degrees by various Targs) , not sure exactly how much more was to be done. In the end I do believe this reveal was a retcon of sorts (though not unusual given GRRM's gardening style) , so some aspects will not line up perfectly ; but there were certainly textual clues that at least somewhat hinted at it. Though I always noticed stronger clues within the Targ dynasty after Aegon I.
Being more than a decade behind schedule on the next book tells us Martin does NOT know what to do with his universe
I like how the Red Keeps dungeons are Mos Eisley
The prophecy is the dumbest thing GRRM has introduced to the lore
@@minnumseerrund possibly being distracted , spreading himself thin , trouble making deadlines clearly an issue , may be dealing with writing struggles that many authors often deal with. But he's still created a very deep complex interesting universe / many concepts therein that so many of us are desperate to get much more material in and learn so much more about. I'd say what GRRM delivers he does so very well ; we just want much more from him. I think he knows what to do , what he does do is a very high standard ; just actually doing it / delivering it is another issue , that we really don't know exactly what's going on there.
@@AlexBB77 I'm not trying to take anything from Martin as a creator. The thing is, he's more interested in worldbuilding than finishing the main story. And that's fine, I dont blame him for that. What annoys me is him being disingenuous, even kinda snotty, about it. IMO the guy should be compared more to someone like Ed Greenwood (creator of the Forgotten Realms) than Tolkien - cause Tolkien finished his epic and THEN spend the rest of his life compiling the backstory.
I was curious about this too! Was hoping you would make a video about this
Fantastic as always. Love your insights. George has truly crafted a fascinating world.
Hey, that’s me on the thumbnail! Ertaç nailed it!
I do like that they incorporated the Long Night into this show. I got a 3 eyed raven tattoo. I had an old awful one from when I was 18 and got it covered🐦⬛💕 Awesome vid Robert
The dog ate their homework and they forgot?
More like Balerion roasted their homework.
So you mean to tell me Aegon kinda JUST FORGOT about the Others?
Understandable, have a nice day.
they were too stressed about fucking their sisters to worry about it.
I made a very funny comment here, but youtube censorship hid it. you'll never know what you're missing.
@@vicentiupredescu7205It’s like how Dany kinda forgot the Iron Fleet, Targaryen Forgetfulness and Targaryen Madness operate hand in hand.
The Targaryens kind of forgot about the others
In the Marines we have a saying, "complacency kills". It could have easily been a case of them just forgetting about the threat and over indulging in excess
Agree
It could also be what is called "Disaster Fatigue", in which people get tired of constantly being at alert and then become complacent. A balance between some downtime and "work" is best to remain vigilant.
Started watching ur witcher vids a couple years ago and I'm still watching ur GoT/ice & fire vids to this day.
Not all of the Valyrians aside from the Targaryens were killed by the doom. There is also the mighty house Celtigar 🦀🦀🦀
I suppose there are also the Velaryons but they’re pretty meh
No but neither of those two houses were dragon lords, when talking about Targaryens it's about the dragons. I believe there was one more man from Valyria that wasn't killed during the doom but he took his dragon to the ruins and nobody knows what happened to them, they never returned.
Funny that at the time of the Dance, the typical view of those houses was reversed ;) "Yes, the Velaryons are one of the most powerful houses in Westeros... and the Celtigars are also there"
Not to mention much of Essos is founded by ancient Valyrian blood. Valyria and Gys appear to be the starting points of civilization on Planetos, similar to the Mediterranean and African regions being prominent in our own. Dragon lords are just more revered in their Culture, and Targs def look down on non Dragon Lord families, which, the are cartainly the last of at this point, unless some Dragon Lords are hiding out in Asshai or YiTi or something. So, a TON of the life on Planetos is of Valyrian heritage.
Idea: aegon did not have a prophecy... until bran gave him one retroactively
Possible butterfly effect where Aegon goes full Targ and tries to force everyone's cooperation with fire and blood. This turns EVERYONE off, and all of Westeros revolts and violently ends the dynasty. When the long night finally comes, the Nights Watch is steamrolled and an unprepared Westeros is devoid of life in no time.
That, or Ros is made queen and poor little old me is forced to be her slave boytoy.
It makes sense that Aegon never cared about seeing the Wall. It might not have even been in his dream, and he knew he wouldn't be alive when the attack happened. His goal was a unified nation, and so his focus was on the rulers and people.
The thing I like about the wording of the prophecy on the knife, it can be the creator’s blood, or the blood of the knife’s victims!
Amazing content brother 👏🏼
I’ve been looking forward to this
The answer is easy, HBO created this for the show, GRRM didn’t though this from the beginning
Great topic bro very unique !!
Aegon and Jaehaerys are the kings I like best. Alyssane went to the wall, and her dragon refused to go beyond it. I wonder why
Because the Wall was built with spells......
The same magic that keeps the Others north keeps other magic south
Naturally, the show ruins this by enabling Dany's three dragons to go north of it, to rescue Jon Snow, and his party, during Season Seven. But when has the last two or three seasons of that show actually done us the favor of following what GRRM wanted? Hell, even before the last three seasons, far too many "liberties" were taken with the overall lore, by the GOT show runners, meaning that the show was mostly doomed after Season One ended, anyway.
@@Richard_Nickerson There are exceptions - Valyrian steel works just as well on either side of the Wall (as does dragonglass).
@@jacob4920 In the show, Daenerys and the Dragons may have bypassed the Wall altogether initially and traversed the waters north of Eastwatch. And we still don’t know what role, if any, Vermax will play at the wall in HoTD season 2. Maybe Sara Snow is a warg, and she warged Vermax over the Wall, something Alysanne couldn’t do with Silverwing. We’ll have to wait and see.
Hi Robert! Long time fan, I have been following you for years... It's probably my first time commenting.
I thought I should let you know that this is the first I knew about your second channel.
On one hand, I feel embaressed to have missed it.... but on the other hand, i thought I should let you know that some of us fans didn't even know about your other channel.
Please promote it further!
Great breakdown!
I'd say that perhaps they went with the Dumbledore method. Same reason Dumbledore didn't make it his life's mission to hunt down and destroy Voldemort right after his "defeat" to ensure he could never come back or regain power. The same same reason he didn't actively go looking for him to fight him after his return. It was because he believed whole heartedly in the prophecy foretold about such things and as such knew that it was not him that would be the one to end Voldemort. He knew Harry would be the one to do it and thus all he had to do was wait till he was old enough, prepare him as best he could, then just watch more or less.
If Targaryens knew that there would be some mythical hero that would eventually spring up from their bloodline that would save the world from a wintery doom, then I would think trying to take direct action against the while walkers would've been detrimental because you aren't the one that is supposed to be doing it. And if they were certain it would come true no matter what, not much point trying to bring it about or second guess if its you, because its gonna happen either way. So instead they focused on matters that they felt they could control, like everyone else does, which is nothing but day to day life stuff.
I cant imagine all the loose ends Martin has to tie up un the last book. I'm not shocked at all its taking absolutely forever.
You can understand the loss of focus on prophecy when you’ve lost the majority of your power to rule. Frantically trying to birth dragons after they all were lost would be terrifying.
D&D would say that “they forgot” after all the drama during either Maegor I the Cruel’s reign, Jaehaerys I’s reign or the Dance of Dragons
Very interesting stuff!!
It's big. It's bad. It's COLD!!
*And it's coming!!!!*
Its a westerosi bull worm
Not all the dragons died during the dance, Silverwing, Sheepstealer, Morning and the Cannibal did survive. But something I don't understand is that Rhaena did hatch Morning, so both she and Baela possesed the knowledge on what need to hatch dragon eggs so it makes no sense that they never tried to hatch more dragons because there was probably more eggs at Dragonstone
Just because a thing happens doesn't mean that people know how it happened.
What’s there to really do? All Aegon knew was that an evil force was supposed to come from beyond the wall and that Westeros needed a Targaryen to fight it. He established a kingdom of Targaryns. What else is there to do?
Tell people why all the conquering was necessary?
@@stevendorriesto unite the kingdoms together I guess, they were always warring and Targaryens brought them together more or less
Support the nights watch or ya know... tell people about it lol
Supporting the night watch at least
he literally had dragons, how about take a ride north of the wall and see whats there?
It reads when held in the fire? Where could George have gotten such an idea I wonder 😂
Excellent video though Robert 👍
Thank you for all the effort you put into this video, I enjoyed it quite a bit and for recommending the other video. Honestly, your video raised so many interesting points with me that I could go on for quite a while about them.
But the one that really keeps popping up in my head is that at the same time that the Targaryen’s lost all of their dragons, the Night’s Watch began to go down hill in a bad way. I fully admit that it could just be historical coincidence and humans being humans but it doesn’t feel like it. I think it’s pretty obvious that dragons were strongly connected to magic but I suspect that their death was either a cause/effect of magic beginning to leave the world or possibly that something had gone very very wrong with the world. While the return of dragons meant magic was back and possibly that the world was back on a path were it could be saved. So the death of the dragons happening at the same time as night watch starts to get hit with body blow after body blow feels like some luck, magic, or karma had gone. Thoughts anyone?
Also when I have a drink or two them get all conspiratorial, I start looking at the whole breath of history of the setting and it’s starts to look like a giant chess game between two all powerful opponent. The Valyrian build their empire of fire and magic with almost endless dragon power, then it gets destroyed by the doom and almost all dragons are killed except for a small number that escape. The Targaryen’s unite the seven kingdoms, the family line is growing wildly, and they are breeding dragons like crazy. Then the Dance of Dragons happens and the family is almost annihilated and their dragons are dying off. It feels like two sides of game being played… or maybe I’m just seeing things.
I believe you hit upon the crux of this, communication, or the lack thereof, drives the story. The whole thing about prophecy is a Game of Telephone, starting with the receiver and billowing out into the surrounding minds until it is lost.
Problem is, the Targaryen house couldn't do it alone. They needed help.
They could have told people
Yeah they could. They had dragons.
I can just imagine the fire mages learning Targaryen’s are trying to turn themselves into dragons with wild fire. “Uhhh hey guys? That doesn’t even make the slightest bit of sense.”
Now it makes a lot more sense that Arya used the dagger with the inscription on it to kill the Night's King, which means the whole story both started and ended with the dagger. which is really cool and all, if only it was done by someone who actually mattered... Like Jon Snow or even Bran.
I would seem that since the Targaryens see that they need to have one of their own at the head of the seven kingdoms in order to defeat the Others, and assuming they trust in the Starks, then strengthening the kingdom as a whole would go a long way to fighting the other when that time came. Also as you pointed out their was a lot of unsuitability in the Targaryen dynasty and just holding onto power quick became the central issue. We also have to remember Sir Barerster Selmy postion on Ragear, at first Regear didn't have interests in warfare but then one day did after reading a book remaking that" apparent he must become a knight". It would put a lot more context on what Regear was supposedly doing behind his fathers back if he rediscovered the prophesy or found some more info that was closer to the source in a book. Working to regain the broken turst with his nobles, looking to supplement his father with a Kings Moot, and fulling the marriage pledge of Ice and Fire with the Starks. And Regaer finaly leaving not just three members of the kings guard but the three best members consider the best knights in the entire kingdom not to protect the child from the pledge of Ice and Fire.
As for why the Targaryens neglected the wall, they though just being head of the seven kingdoms would be enough, and their were more pressing issue to keeping them selves on the throne then garrisoning the first line of defense that as far as they were aware was capable and had the backing of a trusted house should things get worse.
a more concerning question is why are their not followers of Azor Ahai at the wall? These people directly believe their god is in opposition tit he great Other and the Nights Watch is the first lien of defense directly positioned in the way of the Others.Unless 100% of the followers of Azor Ahi had no idea of the wall and the Nights Watch then surrly their must have been members to zealous in their beliefs that they would travel all the way to the other side of the world to join the Nights Watch worse case senior the Great Other and the Others come in their lifetime.
The pact between the Targaryens and the Starks prommised a PRINCESS to marry a Stark BOY....something never done before...it would be the very first time both linneages would interlink...officially that is...The baby that supposedly born by a stark bastard girl and that prince that arranged the said pact, once again supposedly, died at birth and took her/his mom...showed how that would go huh? anyway...
6:03 maybe we’ll get a peak at this in the TV show about Aegons conquest
The Targaryens idea of “there must be a Targaryen on the throne” sort of mirrors the starks mantra of “there must always be a stark in Winterfell”
15:45 - "... there is a lot of work to be done first." Are you listening, George?
Please dont start with that now.
@@leandrocastello309 Lighten up. It's a joke.
The simple answer is it’s a retcon by George probably to tie the two shows together. It’s pointless to try and connect the dots. He writes organically and the story changes as he goes and when you literally take decades to write your story things won’t line up perfectly.
“All of Westeros must stand against it”. So Cersei not fighting them. The ironborn. 5 of the seven kingdoms. The show really made the long night a total joke. Not even the final battle. Just a footnote in the story of anything but Ice and Fire on HBO.
9:46 they’ve shown him at the wall in the new trailer for season 2
another quality video and fun topic. I love your analysis and thoughts. Just my own thoughts here...but I do enjoy the idea of Aegon speaking plainly with Torrhen Stark and discussing the dream and having Torrhen confirm the horrors beyond the wall. The Starks from what I could tell appear to be blunt and straight forward talking people. They don't like games or riddles. They think logically and appear to try their best to do right by their people. I could see Aegon being releaved that he doesn't have to play games and can be frank...as well as noticing the large armies of the North and not wanting to destroy those that have and continue to protect the North. And I could see Torrhen having to put aside his families place as Kings/Queens of the North and creating an alliance with a family that controls dragons...and also appear to have a common enemy.
There are no horrors beyond the wall for him to relate. The Others had not been seen for Millenia. The whole thing is nonsense from a terrible calamity of a TV farce.
I’m dubious that we will ever get “Winds of Winter”. And I completely doubt “a dream of Spring” will ever exist.
1:55 Does anyone know who drew that picture of Daenys on the left? It looks cool but I'm having a hard time finding it.
Perhaps bloodraven came across some mention of the prophecy through a vision while greenseeing? Perhaps he even heated up the dagger
Aegon certainly seemed motivated by a mission. He could have focused on Essos, which is generally more prosperous than Westeros or set himself up as the king of the Narrow Sea. Instead, he went on a spree of conquest with quite limited resources (not counting the dragons). It makes sense that he may have been motivated by a prophetic dream, either his own or from the Dreamer who foresaw the destruction of Valyria. It really makes me wonder though why prophecy seems to focus so much on the Targaryens, and not at all any other family of dragon riders.
Probably because the other families died so they didn't get the chance to see the prophecy.
I had a dream that RR finished the books and my heirs will live long enough to read them.
Hi Robert, You could do a live stream with Joe M. again 👍
Do you think the White Walkers/Others were keeping abreast of the political situation in the realm? Meaning did they choose this particular time to attack based on the realm being divided, leaderless, and plagued by civil war?
Maaaaybe. I mean, realistically they could not have picked a better time to return than just before/during the war of the 5 kings. But If that’s true and that’s what they were waiting for, why didn’t they invade just before/during The Dance Of The Dragons? If I remember correctly, the dance was a much more fractious and destructive war for westeros as a whole than TWOT5K. Perhaps the dragons have something to do with them biding their time a little longer.
If anything it would have more to do with the return of magic the anything if not just pure coincidence
There's a theory that the night king, being a three eyed raven himself, manipulated events to get himself one of danearys' dragons so he could bring down the wall as there was probably no other way to do so, at least in the show.
They had other civil wars that could have provided such an opportunity, and the prologue to Game of Thrones in which they attack some watchmen precedes the outbreak of the War of the Five Kings (or even the death of Jon Arryn).
@@guru230It is what the horn is supposed to do. Dragons wouldn't be able to bring down the wall (or fly over it) because of its anti-magic shell. The show often gets half of the story wrong and then makes up the other half.
Melisadre was seeing white "SNOW" in the fire. It's right in front of her the whole time at Castle Black.
In fireblood it shows that dragons was also affected by the wall … the magic that’s inside the wall goes against the dragons because when Queen allysaan tried to fly over it the dragon would not listen . I think old town found a way to control all seven kingdoms by convincing aegon to use his dragons …
What if Aegon told Torren about his dream and knew that a song of ice and fire meant that one day the Stark and Targaryen blood lines will merge naturally which is why Aegon rarely checked on the North and trusted them explicitly. The Starks would walk away knowing they essentially still controlled the North and one day a Stark would rule. 🤷🏻♂️
I would say the prophecy was forgotten after the dance with dragons. A child came to the throne. A child no one thought would rule so there was no passing down of a Prophecy from ruler to heir.
I saw on a video recently, possibly one of yours, that the first dragons appeared in the far east thousands of years before the series.
Dany's eggs hatch into dragons not long after the Others make a reappearance.
Were dragons created specifically to combat the Others? I know that in the show Drogon's fire has no effect on The Night King but is it possible that a prophecy regarding blood of the dragon is literal rather than figurative?
When Alysanne visited the Night's Watch, she tried to fly her dragon over the wall, but the dragon refused that convinced her about the threat beyond the wall.
despite the interesting questions and revelations that this prophecy creates I am still of a mixed opinion overall about this dream being why aegon conquered westeros because it takes away a lot of the agency aegon had in conquering, instead of being the will of one man changing the course of history and creating a vast prosperous kingdom now its instead oh he felt he had no choice to do it, it also takes away a lot of the interesting and difficult moral greyness because now instead of the conquest being something that could be viewed either as a brutal war of aggression that killed thousands and destroyed kingdoms and houses that had existed for millenia or as a necessary if bloody unification of a divided continent in order to create a (arguably) more peaceful and prosperous realm, but now there's almost no moral ambiguity because no matter how brutal the conquest may have been it becomes unequivocably justified because it was necessary to save the world and to me that's just a lot less interesting than what we had before
Targs too busy perving on their siblings to listen to the warnings from Uncle Dad.
My theory is that the original prophecy was that *dragons* and all of Westeros united would be needed to defeat a threat from the North. That got morphed into a descendant of Aegon’s sitting on a throne
One thing I would like to know is: The alchemist guild loved the Targaryens, what will they do in the story if Aegon (F-Aegon) tries to take King's Landing? They have stronger wildfire now that dragons are back.
Wildfire is science not magic it's as strong as it always was .
@@thatoneblackdude3333 "They (alchemist spells), hmmm, seem to be working better than they were" Hallyne smiled weakly
"You don't suppose there are any dragons about, do you?
This was after Danny's birthing of dragons. He also mentions their spells haven't been as effective since dragons died out. Wildfire is more potent and easier to create now that dragons are back.
@@Fire_Summoner well I stand corrected I always believed wildfire was separate from magic.
The Whitewalkers and Undead could not cross the magic barrier of the wall foundations until it was brought down by an undead dragon. Until the Targaryens arrived, the wall was 10,000 soldiers strong while the seven kingdoms were 'divided'. and the North was a strong kingdom in its own right. Perhaps Aegon's dream was devised and a projection of will (like a warg might do) by the Night King into the mind of Aegon to a) bring dragons to Westeros expecting one to eventually come north of the wall and b) break the strength of the independence of the North and other six kingdoms through promoting a chaotic and false unity. Perhaps the sum of the parts was the strength of Westeros, and the competition between kingdoms led to nobleman feeding the strength of wall garrison. The dream allowing the Targaryens to escape the doom ov Valyria could also be part of the Night King's plan...... just another theory. If the Targaryens had perished in the doom, and never come to Westeros, a Dragon (who hates the cold) would never have ventured north of the wall for the Night King to utilise.
George R.R. Martin is a writer and sometimes writers have so many ideas and storylines in their minds that once they manifest them in writing there may be some loose ends.. I believe this is a detail that’s happening with the Targaryens and them actually executing a tactical defense against the Whites/Others.
Well they did do something. Targaryen Kings since the time of Aegon always made sure that the Night's Watch was well manned. They also put a lot of time and effort into securing their lines to ensure that a Targaryen would sit the throne when the time came to deal with the threat from the far North.
Mate, I wish you do a Dune series, I can totally see it being the best out there. Please consider. Love your work ❤
I can't be convinced that it's not just an attempt by George Martin to try and connect two otherwise largely unrelated books, but I like your work.
How can you say that they are unrelated, when the characters are all part of the same story and they happen within/follow the same timeline of events of all the books?
They did. They made a road all the way from kings landing to the Wall. The only reason you’d do that is if you intended to get there fast for some war. 2: they manned the wall by starting the process of making it possible to elect to ‘take the black’. They also closed the Night Fort where all the others were getting made
Great analysis IDG, as always.
There's a simpler explanation. This is the author's first big retcon to make the new book/series agree with the old. There's nothing in the books that says Aegon a prophetic dream but many descriptions of Rhaegar doing so.
I 100% think this is something GRRM just thought about and definitely did not have in mind from the beginning. It makes no sense
Isn't it implied that Rhaegar heard it from the Woods Witch that he met at Summerhall which he frequently visited?
Also, as we know from the books, Rhaegar was very studious and liked to read a lot, and it wasn't until he read about the prophecy thst he realized that he needed to train and learn to fight for what he believed was his role to play in leading some upcoming battle. So either the WW told him what to read or he discovered it in a book he read on his own without any prompting from the WW. I think it all makes sense with no retconn need at all, just a little flexhing it out.
@Rumkitty2000 Summerhall was destroyed when Rhaegar was born.....and the woods witch you're talking about influenced Rhaegars grandfather.....
summerhall, harennhall, a dream of fall, who cares. Rhaegar went to one of his beloved tourneys and talked to a witch.
@@fourfours9928 Rhaegar never talked to a witch
the supposed longest and harshest winter in at least living memory lasted but a week and killed almost nobody
I always saw interpreted Jon as the Prince that was Promised, he's a leader, that values all life, and technically Unites the realm by bringing the Wildlings to his side.
Dany is Azor Ahai, as she brought back the dragons
Dany the dreamer was the ridder of young Baleryon, Robert please make a video about the characters who died in GoT and What you would’ve done in their place to evoid their demise…example: Rob should’ve behead Jamie and send it to kings landing in retribution for Ned
One thing that confuses me is why this prophetic dream wasn't made public. Even with the dangers of properly interpreting prophecy, it strikes me that having the word get out that Targaryens had to rule the Seven Kingdoms because of danger from beyond the Wall would be to their advantage. It could make people more afraid of revolting, or at the least ensure they only replace one Targaryen with another. Announcing it at the wrong time might have been seen as a desperate act and inspired disbelief. (I think of Abraham Lincoln only announcing the Emancipation Proclamation after a Union victory to have the act taken more seriously.) But during the Targaryens' long years of peace and general control or trying to bring in Dorne… Wouldn't that help? Some parts could be kept secret without hiding everything. That way, it wouldn't depend on each reigning monarch being able to share the information with a designated heir. Policy and national mythology could be purposefully crafted to promote this purpose. Would this Valyrian prophecy have caused conflict with the Faith of the Seven? Is that it? Were they afraid of drawing the Others' attention and having them move earlier than otherwise? Would it have made them too much of a target for those who would support the Great Other?
Next retcon will be a prophecy on the side of the other that they have to rescue the continent from the dragons 😅
🤯 what if the white walkers are the good guys trying to save everyone from the mad Targaryens!?
lol I love the Blame Bloodraven saying 🤣
The issue I have with this in general is that Viserys I. shouldn’t be aware of the prophecy at all. It is treated as a big secret and it is only passed down from king to heir. Jaehaerys wasn’t heir for the longest time though, and it doesn‘t seem exactly like Aegon the uncrowned had time to brief Jaehaerys on this (especially since Jae wasn’t even heir), so the prophecy would have been lost at this point already.
I think it‘s more likely that this is just Gurm‘s and HBOs out to decanonise S8 of GoT without outright stating so, as the events we see unfold could not be further away from the prophecy
Kinda reminds me of Babylon 5. The Minbari waited longer than the Targaryens (almost 1000 years) for the prophecy to be fulfilled. Their entire society was built around it. Most of them had lost faith in the prediction becoming truth and acted in ways that undermined surviving the war against the Shadows, even with all the signs that things were starting to develop.
If Aegon feared a threat beyond the wall then he did nothing about it. It makes no sense to lose a dragon fighting in Dorne (!) but never once fly north of the wall and take a look. Aegon in the initial books did not have this concern.
What I most dislike about the prophecy shoehorn is that it makes the entire ASOIAF about fighting the Others, and I wanted a headier commentary on the destructiveness of ice and fire, i.e. hatred and vengeance.
It seems to be that they were trying to hold the prophecy requirements together with both hands. But a small handful of people can only do so much.
And then when they couldn’t bring dragons back one of them started hating prophecies and buried it as a priority.
8:18 its almost like this is all a massive retcon so very few people will care about the north
I'm disappointed that you never said "mayhaps"
6:30 haha that must be the work of the WikiHow artist.