VZ-330 AWD upgrade mode
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 19 окт 2022
- In this one we are looking at my freshly upgraded Vz-330 to 4 Stepper motors QuadXY .. AWD system. Trying to answer some of the questions you might have if you own a Vz-330 and want to upgrade.
-3d Printer main board: Fly Super 8: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_Dli...
-External 5160 PRo Drivers : s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_AFDBtp
-CNC parts: s.click.aliexpress.com/e/_De1...
-CNC parts: f3d-racing-fdm.myshopify.com/...
If you wish to support: ko-fi.com/vez3d
CNC parts: f3d-racing-fdm.myshopify.com/...
Full VzBoT Printer project: (BOM, cad, stl): github.com/VzBot3D/
Please join us on FB: / 4098868770205560
Disord: / discord
SliceEngineering discount link : www.sliceengineering.com?p=ryvDNs-j_
Or use this code: SIMOV5 
Наука
Whenever you are done coming up with upgrades to this thing, I want a kit. Shut up and take my money.
It will never be finished 😜.
You always can push the limit further.
$10k
I'm waiting n at this point I think I'm done waiting cause sky's the limit at this point and I just wanna fly lol
Legit Same
Kit is out now
I like your soft lighting mod! :P Nice job as usual man!
About the voltage supply for the TMC5160. The TMC5160 requires 11.5v to drive the external FET gates. If you don't supply this externally then it is derived from the motor voltage supply with a linear power supply inside the chip. With high motor supply voltages this will cause significant power dissipation (heat) in the chip. The mellow design which supplies 11.5v external to the TMC5160 on their (larger) module is the recommended way of implementing the TMC5160 in the datasheet.
Again awesome. My newly designed printer I'm building in a few weeks was already designed for four motors. Nice to know about the advantages now! Cheers mate!
Awesome progress. Keep it up!
The gate voltage is the impact Parameter itself for heating the mosfet. Higher voltage means the Gate open larger and the resistance get lower (low RDSon). Lower rdson resistance mean Alot less heat, so the 12V Gaze voltage and the chosen mosfets of this driver Board is a great improvment for the heat and deliverable Power (amps)
There is more to it. The gate of a mosfet is a capacitor. By driving the gate with a higher voltage to turn on, and a lower voltage to turn off, the current on the gate is higher and so the mosfet changes state faster. The quicker that the mosfet turns on or off, the lower power dissipation there is. Why is it so? Its because when the mosfet is intermediate between low resistance and high resistance, there is current flowing and power being dissipated inside of the mosfet. The mosfet is effectively acting as a resisitive load, like a light bulb or heater.
As Iceman said, it's more about the faster switching. RDSon doesn't really matter when the currents are this low. 3A with a .02R rds-on gets you at most 0.2W. most of the losses are switching losses, since the switching events happen at 50-100kHz.
Toolhead arrived today so now I’m ready to build!!!
I love the motivation of shortening belt paths. I've been intending to do this to my Ender's Y axis, and to eventually do 6 motors on my future delta, all to have crazy short effective belt lengths.
I wonder... Would adding idlers with slight tension help, or would the additional drag outweigh the benefit?
@@ApexNick No, it's just the length of belt available to stretch between where it's held to the position it's supposed to be at (the motor) and the carriage. With one motor, the far side always has a very long run of belt pulling it. With two, there's always a motor close.
already do 6 motor to my delta and improve a lot.... even the belt tension is low.... could increase belt lifespan and also mechanical load... so no need high tension into belt
Beautiful design .. I like teh AWD idea!!
I’m excited to see this AWD system at max capability while printing. I’ll be running dual motors so you will be my motivation lol
Must stop upgrading my VzBoT LOL. It's already GREAT with 2WD!
> где вы ведете съемку?
> в банке из под майонеза
> красивое😂
Build looks great!!!
Do you do anything special for wire gauge running to the steppers?
11:58 I miss the LSD all ready!. The automotive acronyms LSD, AWD enabled the non PG-13 edge on this printer. Excellent printer and videos keep them coming.
RIP LSD.
Honey, No! you cant buy the new curtains for the office... We are saving for the LSD hotend. Baby you'll love it.
I love this project! I would love to save up and build one of the Vz's soon. One question I had is what would this cost from lowest possible to highest possible? Just curious
Would be really interesting to see a comparion between AWD CoreXY and a CroXY printer, since they both use 4 motors for X and Y movements
Would be quite interesting, I'd expect CroXY to theoretically have less ringing (more rigid system overall with the crossed linear rail gantry).
I think this AWD could theoretically accelerate faster on perpendicular (purely X/Y) axes because CoreXY engages all steppers, except if you move diagonally.
CroXY would be the opposite: Accelerate faster on diagonals, because that's when it engages all 4 steppers, while it only uses 2 on pure X/Y moves.
That's of course all theory though -- There's a whole heap of other factors which influence acceleration, max speed and resulting stability.
How did you attach the accelerometer to the nozzle? I have the same one and i would love to do that.
Increasing the voltage but leaving the set current the same will increase the maximum rotation rate of the stepper, but it won’t increase the torque and hence acceleration. Because torque is proportional to current. If you want more acceleration, you’re best off dynamically changing the driver current throughout printing to maximise torque while minimising heat production.
Hi Simon. I have ordered 5160hv non-pro to build my non-awd vzbot330 but i was wondering if going awd would imply using a second psu (i am aware it would be better. But can we go awd with only one LRS-350 24v ?)
Did you do any test from the stepsticks and the external drivers? What was the increase in % you got? I already ordered then tho
AFAIK, input shaper works all the time your are moving printing head.
The only reason behind magic numbers of recommended acceleration is "smoothing" factor.
Yeah i should have said...before it starts smoothing too much
I loved the LSD name 😢
it work on my pc thx bro v?ry much
Hi. Are STEP files for these parts and Y gantry available anywhere? I can't find it on your Github.
ty
My front steppers for AWD are running hotter than the original rear ones. Same stepper. Same driver. Same run current. Any ideas
Hi Vez ! A few things came to me watching this vid:
- one thing I always pay attention to in 3D printers is space efficiency. about the loss of print space on the 330, wouldn't it be solved by simply reversing the gantry to have the two belts path at the back, like for the 235 ?
- if motors over-heating is a problem, you can directly bolt them to the aluminum plates, as they can act as heat sinks (Slice engineering is trying the same for their passively cooled Mosquito).
- did you give up on the idea of keeping the XY motors outside the chamber ?
- RIP LSD :((
Thanks for the great vid !
The belt is not what is blocking the front.. the motor plates are... and then yes belt too but its not belt that are hitting first...its the motor plates.. And no i dont want to change the design arround because people would need to change too many things. We tried to keep the printer as it was for simplicity. And yes motors are bolted to aluminum already.
How does this compare with CroXY like Annex Engineering design?
Do you have to do anything special in firmware for QuadXY? If the motors run in parallel, then I would think you could just leave the kinematics set to "corexy" but is there anything else you have to change?
yeah you add X1 and Y1 ... so you ended defining 4 steppers. They are NOT in parrallel.. they each have their own drivers
how is the configuration in Klipper?
Build new bed mounts to offset Y axis to the rear and get your BV back. Looks like it would be very easy with a few printed parts.
that wont help. The back is already on the edge. If we move the bed back, you will lose the space in the back.
Vraiment une belle Jub...et toujours aussi intéressant!!
Your motor heatsinks won't do much good in that orientation without forced airflow. Being upside down, you won't get convection cells (formed by hot, lower density air rising, and cooler, higher density air falling).
I know i know..its not done yet..fans are ordered :)
but they must be doing something because they get warm, so they take some heat off of the motors already :) .. just like the metal motor mounts :)
@@Vez3D getting warm, just means that they have a thermally conductive path to the motors (as they should). It does not mean that they are effectively expelling heat to the air. Most cooling (in the absence of forced air) will be convective. Radiative cooling is negligible in a system like this.
@@JonS you are right :) fans will take care of that
How well would the AWD ststem work on large build vilumes? ie 600x600. It looks like it would help due to the shortening of the driven part of the belt..
it would definately help :)
@@Vez3D now my next decision. Move the 600x600 bed or move the XY gantry.
would it be feasible to build Vz-330 using old unfinished Hypercube cage, build with 3030 profiles ?
Some has done it
Na LSD was perfect 🤣 thanks for another great vid
I got a 6 wheeler in the works - watch out
all Jokes aside, what's your initial reaction to a 250 x 1000mm bed ,gantry on Short axisj you get the huge run at VZBOT speeds
with all these upgrades you need to drop the benchy wr real quick 😂 thousonds in cost to print a mini boat as the title lol
Think something like that would work for resonance on a bed flinger? Dual motors on the Y? Posi-traction maybe? 😂
i wonder what's the difference between 2 motors 48v and 4 motors 24v
4 x24v will still be better im sure
Advantage of the reversed VZ is the front bar has no belts crossing it.
Sir you will make next thing like vz 550 ... ?
Hi the mellow kit AWD on alixpress do these come with everthing to complete these units ?
Yes except a pi
@@Vez3D Hi thanks so much for the fast reply greatly appreciated,second question is there a reason the build vol was up to 330 and not maybe 400 as everyone wants big and fast thanks David NZ
Hi Simon, congratulations on your works, just one question .... But at this speed which materials can be printed? Petg and ABS or others can give problems? So the most suitable would be the PLA?
I built my first printer and it is a vzbot330 ... now I have done some modifications and it is a mix between vzbot330 and vzbot235 .... .I called it vzbot300
stupid name, cya
@@Propalica 😂 yes
(AC) Serovs Vs stepper. i would love to see that
Hi Vez, Love your printer design. I think its far better that Voron.
Have you ever considered changing the motor mount design to move the motors outside the frame for better cooling and for running a heated chamber?
yes it was like that before. But it changed. One of the reason was it was really really hard to find pulley thats were 100% perfect centered. They all have a bit of loose and when you tighten the set screw, they go off center a bit... causing printing artifacts and weird wall quality.
Can someone explain why that is not an issue with the motors inside?
@@rico3696 its an issue too.. but the more pulleys you add the more chances to have artifacts. But i was running nema23 style motors with 8mm ID pulleys.. it might be different with nema17 and 5mm ID pulleys. MELLOW has great pulleys that are centered with tight tolerances. But with 8mm i tried several and never was happy
So if the motors are ourside you use more pulleys? Should there not be the some number of pulleys, just more idlers?
What no print?
哇喔~
Good job man,
Why you didnt use sensorless for X and Y?
Yeah you can do that too. Its just more precise with switches
also you would have to use step stick... but not using those external drivers. they dont have that DIAG pin. so you have to use stepsticks that have the diag pin
@@Vez3D that presision is good , we are talking in microns soo that not bad
More precision ? Better print quality ?
not really more precision, but it has way less belt back lash or belt lenght between 2 points. So it helps a LOT with resonnance, therefore more quality :)
Hey vez, i have those mellow 5160 gigantic drivers either.
I found out that the 12v input works with 18v without issues either.
And another thing, i found out that i had to remove the 5v vio input (not connect it)...
Because with it connected, tmc has register issues.
However, those drivers compared to btt is an insanely difference. Idk why.
Both at 48v and 2.2a... The btt 5160pro's provides a lot less torgue compared to those mellow monsters.
Additionally at 2.4a the btt 5160pros will burn out. I killed that way 3 drivers.
2.3a at 48v is the absolute edge limit before they burn.
They mellows have no issues all way up to 4a.
(Can't test more as 4a with my nema34) 🤣
Cheers 👌
@Vez3D
After some time and problems, took me forever to find out why my psu turns off.
This stupid drivers doesn't have backcurrent protection. Every normal tmc5160 step stick has.
The problem with this is, if the motors stops instantly from a fast rotation, the psu turns off.
Some psu's turns in again after a second, some stays off.
Makes the big mellow drivers absolutely useless 🤦
I dont have that issue and first time i hear that
You seem to have modified lots of things on them.. like the 5v and 18v instead of 12v.
@@Vez3D I'm supplying them now with 12v, basically everything is in spec now.
Check the schematics, they miss there entirely backcurrent protection.
Means, that the generated motor current flows directly back where it can to.
If you don't believe me, make some of your speed test travels and execute an emergency stop.
That should be actually enough.
Im running a nema34, there is even any slow speed with emergency stop enough, to turn the psu off.
It happened douzens and dozens of time already (more like hundreds) ... never had an issue
I love LSD.. it was so... very .. unprofesional in two ways at the same time
First thanks for the videos 🙂So close to 3D printer tech p@rn. 🙂
So AWD with internal 5160 and 48V compared to 24V did not do anything for your acceleration. Did the same result apply for external 5160 and 48V? You mention in the video you could go from 20k to 32k acc with 2WD to AWD, but does not mention any acc for AWD with external 5160. What ampage do you run the external 5160 at?
Could you possibly explain how one can measure the max acceleration going diagonal? I'm looking for the method so I can test myself. Maybe you have a video or a link?
Thanks in advance
I dont have data from 24v.. I dont remember what accel I was getting back then. that 34k accel at 1000mms diagonal was with external drivers. With internal stepstick at 48v I was getting about the same accel as I was getting with 2 motors on stepstick
@@Vez3D Thanks 👍. Video is very inspiring. Looking forward to see more of the launch of the Goliath too. How do you determine what your max diagonal acceleration is and how do you verify that you actually have the acceleration you think you have? I am not question your data. I want to test my self and I am unsure what the right method and approach could be.
@@petermaersk-moller3014 i created a macro for that that should work on most printers. Check my other video abou the vz235 max accel and speed test. Its in the description
why vz bot doesn't have sensorless homing ?
you could if you want. nothing stops you from that :) but not using those external drivers. they dont have that DIAG pin. so you have to use stepsticks that have the diag pin
Vends tu l'imprimante en kit? Localement? Les liens Aliexpress ne fonctionnent pas. Bonne journée!
les liens fonctionnent pour moi et autre que j'ai demander tester. Quel ne fonctionne pas pour toi? oui il y a un kit a vendre..mais sold out pour linstant. apres le nouvel an chinois.. les stock vont rentrer en grand
How are you fixing the heatsinks to the undersides of the motors?
the heatsink comes with a thermal sticky pad
@@Vez3D I've had those fall off after a while, please let us know if you experience the same.
@@jeroen9424 i know Guillaume on my team has them i dont thinm they fell off yet
There’s a design called CroXY that this appears to be, videos of it are available.
Croxy is cross gantry like the annex printers. This is a quadxy design
This is still a corexy...but with 4 motors. Not a croxy. I call it quadXy
Hi where can I buy this printer?
For now your only option is to build it..its a diy opensource project. Link in description. Soon we will have full kits ready. For now we have semi kits. The bom is on github
i would pay money to see awd idex corexy
want need
Sometimes even lower at the 100 mm/s 🥲😭
is there anyone who will source all the parts for this printer as a kit?
Yes.. in a month or so we will have full kits available..partnership with Mellow3d
Everwhere I look these look different set up wise from front to back awd for 330 there is no clear answers
no lie id be willing to pay $3500 for one right now pre built max $4k
Really? Maybe I should consider this then
hi
You definitely need to replace the leadscrews with belts
Why? The z doesn't need to be super fast so leadscrews will be just as good in that regard, plus with belts how are you going to stop the bed from slamming to the ground? I have a delta printer and the tool head only weighs around 300g and if I turn off the printer while homed, or a power failure, thermistor/heater issue then the tool head has no power to keep it up and slams hard to the ground, on a bed which weighs a few KGs it's gonna break or twist things.
Why? A normal leadscrew have a pitch of 8mm per Rotation, mean with 200 Steps its 0,04mm Resolution. A Belt with a 20 tooth pulley have 40mm per Rotation. With the same 200 Steps Motor that means 0,2mm Resolution in Z, which is 5 Times worse for accuraty
@@benclimo461 yeah, that's why you would use a high gearing ratio like 5:1 to retain the needed resolution and holding torque. For example on my machine I use 20t pulleys with 1:5 gearing which results in a rotation distance of (1/5)*40mm=8mm, so it has exactly the same torque and resolution as a 8mm pitch leadscrew. The difference is that belts are flexible and thus only constrain in z direction, not x and y. Leadscrews on the other hand do, so you are overconstraining your z axis, and if they are not perfectly straight and parallel to the axis (which they most certainly aren't) they WILL cause artifacts
Oh no never. But if people prefer that they totally can :)
@@pauhull i have oldham couplers that allows the screw to move freely without affecting bed. The z is tested perfect till 400mm high with 0 wobble or z arrifacts
Dude, what the hell has this cost at this point!!!
no clue.. this printers has evolved with years hehe. but if you were to build it from scratch.. 1500$ would do it I think
@@Vez3D That's actually pretty reasonable considering the capabilities.
I don't care, I'll call it LSD lol
Like Simon Does! ;)
LSD is better :)
goliath ? really ?
jaguar would be a good one :D
Print something...