NASA ASRS is a way for pilots to report incidents confidentially through a separate agency which is NASA and can be use as a get out of jail card. If Daniel was referring to the report that the controller would make they are required to submit such report whenever a pilot deviation has occurred. It will be investigated by the FAA and the pilot could be subject to suspension of his/her pilot certificate and maybe required to do a check ride also known as the 709 ride with an actual FAA Inspector and not just with a designated pilot examiner.
I’m the Captain of the Airbus in the audio and I hope that the Cessna Pilot did not encounter any problems later and before people, especially not related to aviation start getting into wrong conclusion they understand that “whoever washes plates, breaks plates…” and all pilots are exposed to that. I’m sure that he did not do it on purpose, WE Pilots learn from each experience and this will not be the first nor the last and no matter the size of the plane, we all have the same responsibility.
Perfectly executed see and avoid. I've done a lot of see and avoid now since I started flying survey jobs around Seattle bravo. I didn't realize the magnitude of risk involved until I started flying survey lines around a busy practice area.
Congratulations sir! I hope that one day if I find myself in a similar situation, I can be as calm and collected as you were. That was very impressive to listen to... truly!
While this was ultimately the fault of the Cessna pilot, let's examine the factors that put him there. At 2:56 he says that he was headed to Compton and was diverted to Hawthorne. Unless he is very familiar with the area, this would have required him to find the chart and figure out a course to Hawthorne, as well as possibly change frequencies. At 1:20 while initially talking to Hawthorne he stated that "Sorry, radio must have broken", indicating that he was trying to contact Hawthorne tower prior. Once Hawthorne determines that he is indeed inside the class B, the instruction is not to turn around or a vector out, but to change frequencies and contact SoCal. This requires the pilot to look down and change frequencies, then wait for clear air, all of which takes a minute and 10 seconds. In summary, we have a probably new pilot who was flying to one airport, was diverted to another, and wandered into controlled airspace while trying to comply with the instructions he was given. Once it was realized that he was in the wrong place, he was given further instructions which did not resolve the problem, but rather took him out of communication with either controller. What the pilot probably should have done is when confronted with an unplanned change to Hawthorne, asked the controller for assistance in making that change, including a vector or other assistance.
As a pilot that has flown in the LA airspace for over 10 years (primarily out of TOA) I have little remorse for the Cessna pilot. I do think it is a learning experience that he will remember and I am glad no one got hurt. Most training videos, the AIM and various other publications recommend flying with an instructor in an airspace complex as LA to become familiar with it. A quick look at a TAC chart would have also shown that any flight into HHR or near that area would need to remain SOUTH of the 105. It's depicted well on the chart and easy to read. I think this comes down more to pre flight planning. There is virtually little ATC could have done because HHR twr does not own that airspace and twr giving a vector is not allowed. Twr suggesting a turn could have caused things to be worse because as seen in the video he was literally right in the arrival path. The pilot already turned and wasn't much more ATC could have done.
@@SuperAhmed1337 yes, i agree Super Ahmed... he should not lose his license due to the fact there are multiple reasons. the Atc got loud with him making the situation worse. it's too bad as far as the results of this fiasco. i feel bad for him and his aviation family.
@@mattball7074 "Eh man, nobody was hurt that's key" I see this bad logic all the time. The point is the risk, not whether someone actually got hurt. I mean, if your child ran across the street and nearly got hit by a truck, you wouldn't just shrug it off because "nobody was hurt" unless you were a horrible parent. No, you'd give that child a MAJOR talking to.
Yeah that's really all I could think when I was watching this, it seems insane that Hawthorne is so close to LAX that you can violate class B airspace pretty much immediately on approach.
For the commenters to consider: The LAX airspace is some of the most complicated and congested airspace on Earth, with a class Bravo, FOUR class Charlies, and boatloads of busy Deltas all on the LAX terminal area chart. Your average flying school Cessna does not have the pretty glass panels newer aircraft have and I assure you, the airspace borders are not painted on the ground for you to look at while flying (although LAX surface area comes close - it is more or less the 105 Freeway). In a trainer, overflying your intended, unfamiliar airport is much easier than you would think. I've done it. Throw in night-time flying (at least 90 minutes after sunset) and the chances of disorientation goes up. Most of my non-tower work as a student was done at Compton, and I have done a lot of pattern work at Hawthorne. I am not sure if they still do this, but we used to come up from Long Beach along the 110 Freeway at 2000' so we were sure to see the jet traffic inbound for LAX. Perhaps the choice to divert from KCPM to KHHR was not the best bet given the airspace: There are lots of options including Long Beach, Fullerton, and Torrance with towers, helpful controllers, and without the same proximity to LAX traffic.
Or just do what the London TMA does. Massive sections of airspace are Class A from a long way out and many of the CTRs (Class D in the UK) are treated as Class A except for Helicopters, preventing small fixed wings from getting too close.
Chris Kohanek :: Thank you Chris for saying what I said in the original to post series. People from outside the country thought that their Class B airspace was something to be compared against and I tried to explain to them what you just said as well. You've got 14 airports immediately around LAX not counting military. I tries to use flight follow and not put too much on the controllers or be *unreasonable* requests. Aviate, navigate, communicate. Everything I've ever flown had mode C but I'm sure not everyone has it. I think it's kind of suicidal in Southern California. But thems the laws as far as I remember them. I do miss being up there though. For the record for readers, Atlanta is the busiest airport in the world and LAX number four. Heathrow has dropped to number 7 and Charles de Gaulle rounds it out at number 10.
TheTimeTraveler2025 painting airspace on the ground while not a bad idea is inconceivable. That would take so much money. It’s our responsibility as pilots to know where we are at all times. Their are enough tools available to do this. Avare Garmin Pilot and Foreflight to name a few. This guy maybe should not have been allowed to solo yet.
I know it’s frustrating as a controller, but when they started using an aggressive tone you can tell the pilot is starting to shut down and that’s dangerous you are killing his confidence. The goal should always be to remain calm, keep the pilot going strong, then find out what happened after they land. Being emotionally safe is so important
Em...no? If you almost killed an aircraft full of people you shouldn't be petted on the back. The seriousness of the situation should be addressed, so he will know to not do this next time.
@@myopinion2day The pilot knows how serious it was, and I guarantee you it's weighing on him terribly. He feels shame, fear, anxiety, and an adrenaline rush from his near-death experience. He's flying through crowded airspace over a metropolitan area. If he "shuts down", either by just giving up or freezing, then you have turned a near-accident into a certain-disaster as he crashes. The time for reviewing the situation is AFTER the situation has concluded, not in the middle of it.
@@gloomyblackfur399 You seem very sympathetic with that pilot. I'd quite contrary, approve of ground to air missile dealing with that situation. Getting a ton of metal into the air over a metropolitan area is a serious business and starting that while being not competent confident and capable enough to do that gracefully and without risk is a crime. An unintended act of terrorism, if you will.
@Trace That was hardly an aggressive tone, more like assertive, and the ATC did not talk in a threatening manner. I think you're forgetting that realizing when you've made a big mistake can temporarily kill your self-confidence.
The comments are all very polarized. There’s the ones who never make any mistakes, or when they do they magically only do it when no one else can be affected, they want him summarily executed by the FAA at once, one guy claiming to have reported it to the FAA, another who thinks no one in small planes should even be allowed to fly because he has 230 passengers on his plane. Then, on the very refreshing side of RUclips, there are a lot of pilots, including The other pilot involved, who understand the situation and location and that he made a mistake in a stressful situation, admitted it and will learn from it to become a better pilot and wish no harm come out of it. Some even shared their own personal stories of them making similar mistakes. I have huge respect for them and would much rather be a passenger with them than some hothead know it all who claims to never make mistakes and thinks they own the sky, I just assume they wouldn’t handle a stressful situation well.
Yeah. That's what we need to introduce into air traffic. A tool to convey their displeasure. I can just picture tthe 40 plaines in line for takeoff at JFK honking their horns impatiently. So nah, let's just keep the road rage where it belongs. On the road.
Flying through LAX air space that you are not familiar with is like trying to play a round of golf in the middle of a minefield at night ears open and head on a swivel equals Staying Alive
"The Basin" airspace is loads easier with a little Friendly SoCal Approach Flight Following. Even though you are VFR, it removes your worry about busting everything but the Bravo (as long as you follow any instructions given). And, generally, they will not take you on any big detours. Very recommended.
The takeaway: Do not land your aircraft in LA unless your life is in immediate danger and landing your aircraft in LA is the only option to save your life. lmao
Actually an incident at LAX was a pivotal moment in the development of TCAS. A major carrier decapitated literally a GA family going to the local mountain range on holiday. There were other innocent deaths on the ground when the carrier crashed as well. The verdict was that the GA was in an area which should be reserved for the LAX heavies only because they were not trained enough to scope out where they were other than using conventional freeway and landmark maps.
I learned to fly in SoCal at HHR. The turn from base to final for HHR comes very close to the LAX surface area and approach corridor. All it takes is a moment's distraction to get disoriented on the very short hop between Compton and Hawthorne and bust into the final approach path for the LAX South Complex. Visually, it's very difficult to pick out the runway at Hawthorne if you're unfamiliar. Thankfully the Volantis crew was on top of their situational awareness and the TCAS saved them in a case where ATC just couldn't respond fast enough to the maneuvering of the Cessna. When flying this close to the Bravo, I always recommend using flight following, especially if you're unfamiliar with this very complex airspace.
Was there a sort of a extrusion of the B floor area a few years back? I remember a few years back when I took off from HHR I was told to turn left immediately while climbing out of the airport to avoid entering B by TWR. Much greener back then....
@@XPoChangLinX The western portion of the surface area for the LAX Bravo makes a hard turn, almost a 90-degree, to the south at the LAX VORTAC extending on the 170 Radial off the coast all the way to the 251 Radial off of SLI. Pretty sure LAX uses it as a Diverse Vector Area for Low-IFR traffic. It's about 5 miles from Hawthorne but considering even a minor course deviation of 10 degrees to 263 degrees from runway heading of 253 at KHHR will put you into the Bravo over the LAX VOR at 5 miles, there's not a lot of operating room on the north side of the KHHR departure path (5NM and 10 degrees is just under 1 NM at around 1 SM off course) so an uncorrected wind drift can just as quickly (if not faster) put you in the bravo close in to KHHR as flying out 5NM will. Given the close proximity, controllers at KHHR tend to have aircraft departing 25 turn left as soon as possible after departure as it provide breathing room, especially since the departure end of 25 KHHR is 2NM and 30 degrees from the approach end of the runways at LAX, let alone the departure end.
@@elcastorgrande while many other airspaces will turn you away, SoCal rarely does. There are not as many options for VFR pilots to get around in the SoCal area without traffic conflict as there are around other Bravo's throughout the US, especially since SoCal's prevailing weather is generally favorable to VFR so ATC's role in coordinating both VFR and IFR traffic is much more critical. That being said, their priority is still IFR separation and according to the AOPA, a surprisingly large percentage of mid-air collisions occur during Day VFR conditions while utilizing flight following or otherwise under the control of ATC. I myself just had 2 unusually close run-in's with other traffic while in the traffic pattern at a local towered airport; granted the airport in question was a Class D without radar services but it was unnerving to say the least to have ATC start going off on another plane and get an ADSB advisory as I was making my turn to final. On a lap around the pattern later that same day, I was #2 for the runway behind a jet on a long final when a Cessna who "had me in sight" was given #3. As I turned to base behind the jet, the Cessna also decided to turn to base and ended up inside of me on final. Thankfully I caught them as ATC had just cleared me to turn final and land and I was able to inform ATC of the traffic and have them resequence me. It was a bad day in the tower I guess.
About 25 years ago, a friend of mine asked if I wanted to fly down to LA with him from the Hesperia airport (up in the high desert above LA). Since this trip was to catch the electronics swapmeet that was held monthly at the TRW plant near the Hawthorne airport, and said swapmeet started at about 7am, we left Hesperia airport about 5am to give us plenty of time to get to the Hawthorne airport and then catch a cab to the swapmeet. We took off VFR as it was clear but still dark, this being in the wintertime. Once we got down into the LA basin we did flight-following with LA approach. Since it was so early in the morning, the traffic into LAX was pretty light. We were monitoring approach, and looking for the runway lights at HHR, and getting confused. About this time, approach calls us, and says "Hawthorne is on your left, about a mile.. You planning on landing at LAX?? Seems the runway lights we were seeing was LAX's not HHR's.. Somewhere along the line we missed the fact that HHR's runway lights were only turned on by double-clicking the mike on the then-closed tower frequency.. We certainly had egg on our faces, but nothing ever came of it...
I learned to fly at HHR (almost 20 years ago), and I recall one of the biggest things that was stressed during ground school and with my instructor was understanding the airspace around LA, relating it to visual landmarks, knowing how and where you could "cross over" N/S. Being VFR only at that time, the EASIEST way for a GA pilot to recognize the boundary in this area is the 105 Freeway - once abeam CPM, stay south of the 105 and below 5000' (although you'd be lower than that if you were on an extended final into HHR) and you're clear of the Class B.
Tbh not great job by the controllers, specifically the Hawthorne controller getting all aggressive on a low hour pilot who just messed up due to being given complex and confusing directions inside some of the most complicated airspace in the country.
it is not funny to make an innocent turn mistake and find yourself going against the inbound LAX traffic. I know that area is well known in the GA community but that does not mean that people should go there unaware how close the GA lanes are to the "real" inbound lanes.
I train out of KVNY and whenever we are close to LA's bravo my instructor points out that if we cross that line we vaporize. I think that's a good way to look at it.
How do you not have a million subs for all this work you put in?! You definitely deserve many more than you have now! Thanks for once again an awesome video! 🙏🏼
Because it's a niche market. It would be nice if everyone was as interested and educated and trying to rapidly absorb as much useful practical information as possible..... But nope. Ariana Grande has a new single out where she might show some side boob. Much more important.
I am fascinated and confused by this channel. Fascinated, because of the drama that is portrayed by the videos. I'm also fascinated by the professionalism of the actors involved. It has me spell-bound. I"m not associated with the airline business, and get frustrated when I don't either understand the incident or the specialized lingo. With this video, I watched it and scratched my head. I knew that something serious and threatening had occurred, but didn't know what it was. I read the comments, spent an hour on them, and then re-watched. Aha! I said. Now I understand more fully. Thanks to VASAviation, and the pilots and ATCs who comment, I have a much clearer idea of what happened here, and what might have happened if not for the quick thinking of the 4090 pilot. Thank you all
This was very serious. On August 31, 1986, Aeromexico Flight 498, a DC-9, collided with a Piper PA 28-181 Archer over Cerritos, California killing all 64 people on the Aeromexico flight, decapitated all three people on the Piper, and killed 15 people on the ground. The crash occurred under very similar circumstances. As a result of the accident, commercial planes are required to have TCAS and all private planes must have mode C transponders. Both were in action here.
If I remember correctly, wasn't that a Piper stolen by a GI out of Washington state? If so all the rules and regs wouldn't have prevented anything. Think that's when class B airspace was created by Margaret Dole.
@@scottpatterson4105 No. The problem was that there was a separate incursion into the class B airspace, and the air traffic controller missed seeing the incident Piper.
I don’t think it was so much someone to blame, more like the tower figured out the pilot was inexperienced, and were finding out if there was someone more experienced and better equipped to handle the situation on board. If there was a trainer on board, they wouldn’t allow a student polite to venture into that space in the first place, but in an emergency/dangerous situation someone who knows completely what they’re doing it better to talk to than a rookie.
In the 1960's I was a student pilot, flying Cessna 150's. I've handed at Hawthorne, and it is possible to mix it up with LAX, especially if you're not familiar with the area. Fortunately, I had an instructor on board at the time, or I never would have attempted such a flight. And, yes, I could see LAX in the distance, only because he pointed it out to me. After landing, we went up into the tower to observe (with the tower's permission, they had a phone on the ground). While we were there (being VERY quiet) some yoyo in a light airplane with no radio communications flew the length of the runway and then did a pattern. Tower tried, but could not contact him. As he went buy one of the tower guys got out a red light with a handle, like WWII stuff, flashed it at the pilot, and said, (Quote)"ZAAP! You're Sterile!" The pilot made another circuit, and the tower cleared everybody out of his way. As he came in on final, the tower flashed him a green light. We thanked the tower people and diplomatically left at that time. The tower people were not happy with stupidity. If your situational awareness is faulty - you will die.
Tower, “Is there an instructor on board?” Pilot, “”Welllll......yes, but he told me to tell you he’s not here.” Seriously though, as a FAASTeam rep I did remedial training for a newly minted private pilot that busted ORD Bravo airspace a number of years ago. I’m not saying it is a common problem, but I can certainly see how it could happen to an inexperienced pilot. Especially in that seriously congested airspace around LAX.
And people want flying cars to be given to the general public? Cessna pilot sounds like a good guy who made a mistake in some of the most complex airspace there is.
The Birdcage is a very scary place. I flew in and out of TOA and the 105 freeway was as my instructor said, the great wall of china, you pass it without an RSVP, and you die!!!! Compton, Hawthorne, and Santa Monica are all extremely difficult approaches especially for someone who gets rerouted and didn't have the time to get things sorted. When I flew in that area I kept a notepad next to me with the frequencies for the 6 major airports in the area (LGB, LAX, TOA, Hawthorne, Compton, Santa Monica) just in case something happened because things change fast in the Birdcage and in an emergency you could easily stray into the approach path.
Jeez this was close. The really scary thing was watching the Cessna also starting to decend when he realised he had violated, not realizing that he was chasing the A319 down. Very scary, thank goodness for TCAS
Hawthorne airport is right next to the Bravo which goes right down to the ground. I suspect this is not the first violation and it wont be the last. Thanks for posting it.
After the "Do. You. Have. An. Instructor. On. Board?" the Cessna pilot really started to feel the weight of the situation. I hope he’s still flying.. He must be one of the most cautious and attentive pilots existent today, following that incident.
@@alanaldpal950 "make a mistake" lmao way to trivialize what he did. This jackass obviously made zero effort to learn the landmarks of the Bravo airspace. Its not that hard, stay south of the 105 freeway. But if Im ever stupid and dangerous enough to fly my aircraft into the approach of a Class Bravo airport, I'll shred my license for my own safety. I'll even mail it to you. Whats your address?
Honestly although this Cessna didn't plan well enough and busted airspace his attitude remained professional. He owned his mistake and didn't try to employ one of the defense mechanisms that contribute to hazardous attitudes. That's my opinion as an instructor.
Shit, this is just more reason for me to never go back into SoCal. It's hell with a truck, and it sounds like another level of hell entirely with a plane
I'm suddenly even more grateful that I'm learning in pretty straightforward class G airspace - just got some class C a few thousand feet up, and that steps up higher if I head north a bit. I've seen a couple of airliners way overhead, and even changed direction once to avoid their wake turbulence, but basically I don't need to worry much about violating restricted airspace. Also handy that the class G itself is really freaking quiet around my airfield, especially right now with COVID. Offhand I think I've only ever shared the airspace with one other aircraft, and that was my flight school's other Topaz.
Everywhere around LA county and orange county is a maze of class B and C airspace, special flight restrictions around the stadiums, disneyland, camp pendleton, etc. VFR flying at night in this airspace in a rented Cessna 172S isn't advisable.
I get confused driving in the Los Angeles area, I can't imagine that flying through the congested air space would be like. Sounds like it all worked out. Thanks for the video.
most pilots are trained to handle complex and difficult regional congestion. Just think of driving on freeways with clear locations in mind where you need to contact the radio operator just to yell at them that you are ok and under control and everyone would know where you plan to get off even miles from where you are now. No problem? And by the way the operators know exactly where to tell you to change frequencies so you hit the best operator to where you are and what you are doing all the time. relax.
That was crazy close. ATC didn't do anything to immediately neutralize the danger, instead just pushed him off to another frequency, allowing him to continue on his path right into the LAX corridor.
This is why EVERY call made by a student flying solo should end with STUDENT PILOT. Let ATC know you are new, so they keep an eye on you. I almost made one with a Navy P3 doing pattern work in Jacksonville because of a similar situation back in my day
I had Boston approach tell me I busted bravo airspace once. He was wrong and tried to bully me. I told him no worries I was 100 percent sure. I was on a GPS track, I had the Boston altimeter, and I had a huge landmark outside the correct window.
As a pilot, I can assure you that it can get really confusing up there in congested airspace. The 172 pilot was going less than half the speed of those other aircraft, it's not like he can just jump in line with them, nor does he have the same instrumentation and support that they do (not to mention experience). The pilot should have requested vectors, and ATC should have offered a heading at a minimum. The guy was obviously lost and didn't know where he was.
SoCal is a “cluster-f#%k” for both pilots and ATC. Frankly, even with TCAS and mode c transponders, I am surprised there haven’t been more mid-air, like the one with the Aeroméxico flight in the 80’s. Especially since our airways are getting more and more congested.
Thanks to VASAviation for posting this so promptly and for the quality of your work, and thanks to the Volaris crew for how professionally and graciously they handled all this.
Its pretty normal really. Lots of commercial airports have city GA airports close or under their approach paths. The approach to YMEN is only 2-3 miles east and ever so slightly lower than the YMEL 34 approach. Literally there is a bridge with a vfr weypoint at one end and the jet final turn at the other
Yep, he didn't read back the instruction to proceed direct to the runway. Atc didn't call him on it, then, shocker, he absolutely didn't do it. That was on the controller. Don't issue 2 instructions and allow just one read back.
There's a waypoint named LIMMA? That's almost as confusing as having an airline named Delta. Thankfully Doesn't Ever Leave The Airport is only an issue for ground control.
Quite shocking and a close call. I've flown quite a few times into HHR and know how tight it is there but I wish pilots would brief more AHEAD OF THEIR FLIGHT and be aware of their surroundings at all times. But again, these mistakes can happen to anyone and at least the pilot noticed that he busted the Bravo and screwed up.
So in other words a basic law of GA is to study charts of local major airports and to be able to determine ahead of time where to turn and where to avoid? How terrible.
The intimidating tone from LA approach and Hawthorne tower was unnecessary. Pilots know the severity of the situation and don't need any added aggression. This only makes things worse. Seems like controllers who are also pilots are much better at keeping a calm voice than non-pilot controllers. My experience as an airline pilot and former GA pilot.
I agree 100%. I commented the same thing above. I think it was extremely unnecessary and look very unprofessional. That HHR tower controller should probably stick to government jobs or flipping burgers. That HHR tower controller was a unnecessarily a dick to N53440. He needs to lose his job and I hope he sees this comment. If he does, I have a phone number for you sir.
@Ryan Would you agree as a pilot that it's helpful to learn some surrounding landmarks before flying to a destination? I feel like that would've helped this GA guy a lot. Use something as a "Do Not Cross" line of sorts. The HHR controller used the 105 and that was a good idea. I can't blame him for being upset with this pilot. Of all things to be unaware of, Class B airspace is probably the worst. No one likes getting read the riot act or making it to RUclips, but sometimes it's called for. There was another crash in this area that was caused by very similar conditions. A lot of people died that day. Glad it didn't happen again. Hope the pilot gets back on the horse and is better for it
@@yzyzyzyz5032 I disagree. It may have seemed harsh, but it goes with the severity of the mistake. I don't know anyone involved here, but from what I just heard, it didn't sound like this pilot knew the area all that well. Depending on where you fly, that's life or death. Firing a controller for being on top of a class B airspace violator is pretty backwards. These are the kind of people that, as a controller, you SHOULD be on top of.
I have flown quite a bit around that airspace. If you are a student pilot OR unfamiliar, you can become confused easily (especially before the days of ForeFlight and modern GPS systems). The multiple shelves of LAX and tight spaces between airspace makes it a very busy time in the cockpit, especially if you are single pilot. Now I fly around the DEN airspace, and it's the same situation out here. Pay attention and you will be fine. Situational awareness is key no matter what rating you hold and how many hours of experience.
A tornado ripped through Ottawa and killed the power at the airport Friday 21st. I'm curious how they delt with it, the no power atc videos are always intense.
From the change his tone of voice, it’s as if the Cessna pilot figures out what just happened, despite being told by the approach controller that no one flagged him up. Wonder what made him twig.
I think it would be cool but I kinda don't want him/her to do it. If they do it then I think there will be hundreds of bullshit ones popping up on RUclips
Peter Bogomolov I disagree. Too much work for wannabes to even do half baked. They'd still need the tools, and Victor had the radar tool made just for him (us).
The Airbus got a warning that came with an advice, they followed that advice, and because of that the planes still stayed hundreds of feet apart. Granted, that's closer than one would like, but it was still a ways off from a disaster.
Yeah, it turned out ways off from a disaster but it very easily could have been one. Just imagine TCAS not working or the pilots not reacting immediately. The Cessna was actually descending at the same time so without TCAS they would probably have had a separation of only a hundred feet or so which would be waaaay to close for comfort.
Schuwi, Yeah, sure, a lot could have happened if a lot more went wrong. But that's the point I'm trying to make, a lot of things have to go wrong for something seriously dangerous to happen. Only one, maybe two things went wrong here.
Schuwi Every time a plane takes off it COULD be a major disaster if enough things go wrong. Luckily there’s enough redundancies built in that major disasters don’t happen very often.
Hawthorn & Compton are super tricky cuz they are right up against the LAX short final arrival flow (and the resulting Class B). If I landed at either I'd want to be working with SoCal approach AND let them know I'm unfamiliar so I get a little extra help and avoid a bigger problem. No way I'd fly into either airport (unless I did it all the time) without prep and approach help.
What I cannot really understand why active COM frequency cannot be transmited using ads-b out and shown to atc and other pilots round you. It should help a lot in communication and there is enough capacity at ads-b with extended squitter to support this
Good idea but general aviation aircraft are not (at least yet) required to have ADS-B transmitters. I think they will be required starting in 2020 in the US
@@sbreheny i know. And that's what i cannot understand - why? Costs are not that high versus safety gain. And unfortunatelly in 2020 it will be only in US, in EU it's still mode-S
is this mixed audio from different frequencies or do they really talk "follow the vehicle" and other ground stuff on the frequency they use for landing clearings etc?
I think it’s funny how many people assume this was a student. With commercial planes almost landing on wrong airports or taxiways I think it’s premature to assume this guy was not a fully fledged private pilot. His radio coms were pretty calm and to the point; he knew when he was about to leave B,so he probably had ForeFlight or a 340. At night, he was trying to pick out the airport in a dense light environment, going north from Compton which is about a 5 minute flight into B. My question is, who diverted him? Who was he talking to? This is a very big deal as he came within 500ft of an A319. Major pilot error and without the TCAS it could have been catastrophic. But I think he knows he screwed up. Situational awareness, new airport, night, maybe singlehanded.... the only thing more intriguing would have been if he’d said “I’m an instructor”
Hello. I was just looking at the sectional charts for KLAX during the Thousand Oaks fire situation and I see there is a restricted area for Thousand Oaks and Malibu. Is that in accordance with the instructions from the firefighters to have that area restricted from aircraft? I see a minor one southeast of the airport, oh never mind, that's the Disney Restricted Area. Scary.
not a pilot but i think that he meant heading 0 (so, north), but its customary to say 360 (which, according to how circles work is the same) because its more clear
That requirement is currently on commercial planes and is called ADS-B Out. I assume, in that airspace, everyone also gets a transponer code before they even reach the runway... But I'll defer to someone that has actually flown there...
Controllers can tag you up, which means they highlight your callsign to let other controllers know you are causing any kind of trouble or need assistance.
I'm a controller and used to work there actually. It means a track wasn't started on their aircraft, which would entail assigning a discrete code, verifying position with an ident, and entering it into the system which would create a partial flight plan. The other controller could tell because when he looked up the callsign, there was no partial flight plan.
As any air traffic controller knows, "tag him up" means to paint him for targeting with surface to air missiles. What the pilot didn't know was that he was too close for missiles, so they were switching to guns.
In nursing/medicine, we have shifted to 'Just Culture' and 'Safety Culture' from blaming and shaming. They foster accountability and learning without retaliation and persecution provided people act without gross negligence and with good faith. When people feel they can be honest about events and contributing factors, you can better learn WHY something happened, thus, what can be changed to prevent it in the future. This is not the first pilot, and will not be the last, to make a human error. Learning how this could have been prevented is Safety Culture.
The approach looks a little tight. They are going to need to remove small fields that are anywhere near the approaches to the major airports because eventually some little Cessna is going to get plowed by an Airbus. Doesn't matter who is in error at the point, just that the infrastructure made it that much more likely to occur.
*Thanks to the pilot onboard Volaris for sharing his experience so that we could understand what happened and learn from it. WATCH OUT THE BRAVO!*
safety report was sent to who?
To NASA ASRS Aviation safety reporting system
does the pilot get a fine for that? is it just a slap on the hand?
NASA ASRS is a way for pilots to report incidents confidentially through a separate agency which is NASA and can be use as a get out of jail card. If Daniel was referring to the report that the controller would make they are required to submit such report whenever a pilot deviation has occurred. It will be investigated by the FAA and the pilot could be subject to suspension of his/her pilot certificate and maybe required to do a check ride also known as the 709 ride with an actual FAA Inspector and not just with a designated pilot examiner.
Why do you spell Lima with 2 m's here?
I’m the Captain of the Airbus in the audio and I hope that the Cessna Pilot did not encounter any problems later and before people, especially not related to aviation start getting into wrong conclusion they understand that “whoever washes plates, breaks plates…” and all pilots are exposed to that. I’m sure that he did not do it on purpose, WE Pilots learn from each experience and this will not be the first nor the last and no matter the size of the plane, we all have the same responsibility.
Luis fernando Bruno Guzman you are one cool cucumber, man. Inspirational!
You did an incredible job handling this dangerous situation. Maintained calm and composure throughout. Well done.
Perfectly executed see and avoid. I've done a lot of see and avoid now since I started flying survey jobs around Seattle bravo. I didn't realize the magnitude of risk involved until I started flying survey lines around a busy practice area.
Well said. Thanks for sharing your experience.
Hello Captain, I know you have published a book about your carreer as a pilot but I could not find it anywere online to buy
Well thanks everybody for your comments....I just retired from flying in June 2019 !!!!! Best regards!!!!!!!
Congratulations sir! I hope that one day if I find myself in a similar situation, I can be as calm and collected as you were. That was very impressive to listen to... truly!
Do you miss it?
Congrats!
Congratulations!🍾🎊🎈
@@eduardofonseca3978 yes, it was my life....
While this was ultimately the fault of the Cessna pilot, let's examine the factors that put him there. At 2:56 he says that he was headed to Compton and was diverted to Hawthorne. Unless he is very familiar with the area, this would have required him to find the chart and figure out a course to Hawthorne, as well as possibly change frequencies. At 1:20 while initially talking to Hawthorne he stated that "Sorry, radio must have broken", indicating that he was trying to contact Hawthorne tower prior. Once Hawthorne determines that he is indeed inside the class B, the instruction is not to turn around or a vector out, but to change frequencies and contact SoCal. This requires the pilot to look down and change frequencies, then wait for clear air, all of which takes a minute and 10 seconds.
In summary, we have a probably new pilot who was flying to one airport, was diverted to another, and wandered into controlled airspace while trying to comply with the instructions he was given. Once it was realized that he was in the wrong place, he was given further instructions which did not resolve the problem, but rather took him out of communication with either controller.
What the pilot probably should have done is when confronted with an unplanned change to Hawthorne, asked the controller for assistance in making that change, including a vector or other assistance.
It's tough to be assertive in this situation, though, especially as a new pilot. I feel like ATC dropped the ball a little, too.
As a pilot that has flown in the LA airspace for over 10 years (primarily out of TOA) I have little remorse for the Cessna pilot. I do think it is a learning experience that he will remember and I am glad no one got hurt.
Most training videos, the AIM and various other publications recommend flying with an instructor in an airspace complex as LA to become familiar with it. A quick look at a TAC chart would have also shown that any flight into HHR or near that area would need to remain SOUTH of the 105. It's depicted well on the chart and easy to read. I think this comes down more to pre flight planning.
There is virtually little ATC could have done because HHR twr does not own that airspace and twr giving a vector is not allowed. Twr suggesting a turn could have caused things to be worse because as seen in the video he was literally right in the arrival path. The pilot already turned and wasn't much more ATC could have done.
Cthippo1 when he said he was making a left 360 back towards Hawthorne, it is clear he is snafu at that point.
@@SuperAhmed1337 yes, i agree Super Ahmed... he should not lose his license due to the fact there are multiple reasons. the Atc got loud with him making the situation worse. it's too bad as far as the results of this fiasco. i feel bad for him and his aviation family.
I agree and share the same point of you as you my friend.
4:20 you know you are not doing alright when ATC tells you "do you have an instructor onboard"
Perhaps the ATC just wants to know a good place to send people to flight schools?
Eh man, nobody was hurt that's key
The only thing scarier than "I have a number for you to call"
ThoolooExpress bah, take that number, write it down on a sheet of paper, then crumple it up and throw it away like a parking ticket 🤣
@@mattball7074 "Eh man, nobody was hurt that's key"
I see this bad logic all the time. The point is the risk, not whether someone actually got hurt. I mean, if your child ran across the street and nearly got hit by a truck, you wouldn't just shrug it off because "nobody was hurt" unless you were a horrible parent. No, you'd give that child a MAJOR talking to.
There are too damn many airports jammed into that airspace.
Yeah that's really all I could think when I was watching this, it seems insane that Hawthorne is so close to LAX that you can violate class B airspace pretty much immediately on approach.
Don't worry SMO will be gone soon
Not an excuse though. I was taught "know your area of operation before flying into it." Do that well enough and everything gets easier
yea I didn't realize! that's really congested
@@aj3751 He could have known Compton well enough, Hawthorne where he got diverted to, not necessarily.
For the commenters to consider: The LAX airspace is some of the most complicated and congested airspace on Earth, with a class Bravo, FOUR class Charlies, and boatloads of busy Deltas all on the LAX terminal area chart. Your average flying school Cessna does not have the pretty glass panels newer aircraft have and I assure you, the airspace borders are not painted on the ground for you to look at while flying (although LAX surface area comes close - it is more or less the 105 Freeway).
In a trainer, overflying your intended, unfamiliar airport is much easier than you would think. I've done it. Throw in night-time flying (at least 90 minutes after sunset) and the chances of disorientation goes up.
Most of my non-tower work as a student was done at Compton, and I have done a lot of pattern work at Hawthorne. I am not sure if they still do this, but we used to come up from Long Beach along the 110 Freeway at 2000' so we were sure to see the jet traffic inbound for LAX.
Perhaps the choice to divert from KCPM to KHHR was not the best bet given the airspace: There are lots of options including Long Beach, Fullerton, and Torrance with towers, helpful controllers, and without the same proximity to LAX traffic.
Or just do what the London TMA does. Massive sections of airspace are Class A from a long way out and many of the CTRs (Class D in the UK) are treated as Class A except for Helicopters, preventing small fixed wings from getting too close.
Chris Kohanek :: Thank you Chris for saying what I said in the original to post series. People from outside the country thought that their Class B airspace was something to be compared against and I tried to explain to them what you just said as well. You've got 14 airports immediately around LAX not counting military. I tries to use flight follow and not put too much on the controllers or be *unreasonable* requests. Aviate, navigate, communicate.
Everything I've ever flown had mode C but I'm sure not everyone has it. I think it's kind of suicidal in Southern California. But thems the laws as far as I remember them. I do miss being up there though. For the record for readers, Atlanta is the busiest airport in the world and LAX number four. Heathrow has dropped to number 7 and Charles de Gaulle rounds it out at number 10.
It's true, the socal charts make my head spin
Chris Hayward :: YUP!
TheTimeTraveler2025 painting airspace on the ground while not a bad idea is inconceivable. That would take so much money. It’s our responsibility as pilots to know where we are at all times. Their are enough tools available to do this. Avare Garmin Pilot and Foreflight to name a few. This guy maybe should not have been allowed to solo yet.
I know it’s frustrating as a controller, but when they started using an aggressive tone you can tell the pilot is starting to shut down and that’s dangerous you are killing his confidence. The goal should always be to remain calm, keep the pilot going strong, then find out what happened after they land. Being emotionally safe is so important
Em...no? If you almost killed an aircraft full of people you shouldn't be petted on the back. The seriousness of the situation should be addressed, so he will know to not do this next time.
@@myopinion2day The pilot knows how serious it was, and I guarantee you it's weighing on him terribly. He feels shame, fear, anxiety, and an adrenaline rush from his near-death experience. He's flying through crowded airspace over a metropolitan area. If he "shuts down", either by just giving up or freezing, then you have turned a near-accident into a certain-disaster as he crashes. The time for reviewing the situation is AFTER the situation has concluded, not in the middle of it.
@@gloomyblackfur399 You seem very sympathetic with that pilot. I'd quite contrary, approve of ground to air missile dealing with that situation. Getting a ton of metal into the air over a metropolitan area is a serious business and starting that while being not competent confident and capable enough to do that gracefully and without risk is a crime. An unintended act of terrorism, if you will.
@@NGC1433 Yeah I'm sure you never accidentally cut someone off, tough guy.
@Trace That was hardly an aggressive tone, more like assertive, and the ATC did not talk in a threatening manner. I think you're forgetting that realizing when you've made a big mistake can temporarily kill your self-confidence.
The comments are all very polarized. There’s the ones who never make any mistakes, or when they do they magically only do it when no one else can be affected, they want him summarily executed by the FAA at once, one guy claiming to have reported it to the FAA, another who thinks no one in small planes should even be allowed to fly because he has 230 passengers on his plane.
Then, on the very refreshing side of RUclips, there are a lot of pilots, including The other pilot involved, who understand the situation and location and that he made a mistake in a stressful situation, admitted it and will learn from it to become a better pilot and wish no harm come out of it. Some even shared their own personal stories of them making similar mistakes. I have huge respect for them and would much rather be a passenger with them than some hothead know it all who claims to never make mistakes and thinks they own the sky, I just assume they wouldn’t handle a stressful situation well.
You forgot the MSFS pilots.
@@shreddder999 lmao
This is why all aircraft should be equipped with horns.
Just honk your horn and give a courtesy wave to say sorry.
Works great for cars.
Just saying.
That would only work for super-sonic aircraft
Give them the Bobby dazzlers whilst you're at it for full effect. (Sorry for the UK only comment)
Airbus/boeing has a horn btw, usually use in ground to call the attention of the aircraft mechanic 😊
🤣👌🏻
Yeah. That's what we need to introduce into air traffic. A tool to convey their displeasure.
I can just picture tthe 40 plaines in line for takeoff at JFK honking their horns impatiently.
So nah, let's just keep the road rage where it belongs. On the road.
Flying through LAX air space that you are not familiar with is like trying to play a round of golf in the middle of a minefield at night ears open and head on a swivel equals Staying Alive
I am not a pilot but I think someone who is not familiar with that general area should just stay off in the Pacific for as long as possible.
"The Basin" airspace is loads easier with a little Friendly SoCal Approach Flight Following. Even though you are VFR, it removes your worry about busting everything but the Bravo (as long as you follow any instructions given). And, generally, they will not take you on any big detours. Very recommended.
Damn, that was straight inta Compton!
num sayin?
ja ja
The FAA are gonna hafta come and get me off yo ass, that's how I'm goin out
Gold rims on that Cessna's gear. That A319 be payin respects and gettin outta his way.
The takeaway: Do not land your aircraft in LA unless your life is in immediate danger and landing your aircraft in LA is the only option to save your life. lmao
You'll need a plane just to get out of LAX, at least any time this decade
Top dumbest comment I have read today. 🙄
@@jstbemee Thank you 😉
l bet you can’t sit down anymore?! Better get a pillow?
Not once have I ever thought "to save my life" and "LA" in the same context
Very serious BUT it was a student, and he owned up to his mistake. Great reaction time and response by the Costa Rican crew.
How did we determine that it was a student?
@@shreddder999 Hawthorne tower asks if there was an instructor onboard. Owner is a flying club/flight school. Reasonable assumption.
@@AviationJeremy Do we know even now that it was a student?
Likely to be a new pilot renting from a flight club
@@AviationJeremy Students are required to identify themselves as "Student Pilot" when talking to ATC
tcas saves lives people. Nice job!
Actually an incident at LAX was a pivotal moment in the development of TCAS. A major carrier decapitated literally a GA family going to the local mountain range on holiday. There were other innocent deaths on the ground when the carrier crashed as well. The verdict was that the GA was in an area which should be reserved for the LAX heavies only because they were not trained enough to scope out where they were other than using conventional freeway and landmark maps.
I learned to fly in SoCal at HHR. The turn from base to final for HHR comes very close to the LAX surface area and approach corridor. All it takes is a moment's distraction to get disoriented on the very short hop between Compton and Hawthorne and bust into the final approach path for the LAX South Complex. Visually, it's very difficult to pick out the runway at Hawthorne if you're unfamiliar.
Thankfully the Volantis crew was on top of their situational awareness and the TCAS saved them in a case where ATC just couldn't respond fast enough to the maneuvering of the Cessna.
When flying this close to the Bravo, I always recommend using flight following, especially if you're unfamiliar with this very complex airspace.
Hopefully you can get flight following in such busy airspace.
Was there a sort of a extrusion of the B floor area a few years back? I remember a few years back when I took off from HHR I was told to turn left immediately while climbing out of the airport to avoid entering B by TWR. Much greener back then....
@@XPoChangLinX The western portion of the surface area for the LAX Bravo makes a hard turn, almost a 90-degree, to the south at the LAX VORTAC extending on the 170 Radial off the coast all the way to the 251 Radial off of SLI. Pretty sure LAX uses it as a Diverse Vector Area for Low-IFR traffic. It's about 5 miles from Hawthorne but considering even a minor course deviation of 10 degrees to 263 degrees from runway heading of 253 at KHHR will put you into the Bravo over the LAX VOR at 5 miles, there's not a lot of operating room on the north side of the KHHR departure path (5NM and 10 degrees is just under 1 NM at around 1 SM off course) so an uncorrected wind drift can just as quickly (if not faster) put you in the bravo close in to KHHR as flying out 5NM will. Given the close proximity, controllers at KHHR tend to have aircraft departing 25 turn left as soon as possible after departure as it provide breathing room, especially since the departure end of 25 KHHR is 2NM and 30 degrees from the approach end of the runways at LAX, let alone the departure end.
@@elcastorgrande while many other airspaces will turn you away, SoCal rarely does. There are not as many options for VFR pilots to get around in the SoCal area without traffic conflict as there are around other Bravo's throughout the US, especially since SoCal's prevailing weather is generally favorable to VFR so ATC's role in coordinating both VFR and IFR traffic is much more critical.
That being said, their priority is still IFR separation and according to the AOPA, a surprisingly large percentage of mid-air collisions occur during Day VFR conditions while utilizing flight following or otherwise under the control of ATC.
I myself just had 2 unusually close run-in's with other traffic while in the traffic pattern at a local towered airport; granted the airport in question was a Class D without radar services but it was unnerving to say the least to have ATC start going off on another plane and get an ADSB advisory as I was making my turn to final. On a lap around the pattern later that same day, I was #2 for the runway behind a jet on a long final when a Cessna who "had me in sight" was given #3. As I turned to base behind the jet, the Cessna also decided to turn to base and ended up inside of me on final. Thankfully I caught them as ATC had just cleared me to turn final and land and I was able to inform ATC of the traffic and have them resequence me. It was a bad day in the tower I guess.
About 25 years ago, a friend of mine asked if I wanted to fly down to LA with him from the Hesperia airport (up in the high desert above LA). Since this trip was to catch the electronics swapmeet that was held monthly at the TRW plant near the Hawthorne airport, and said swapmeet started at about 7am, we left Hesperia airport about 5am to give us plenty of time to get to the Hawthorne airport and then catch a cab to the swapmeet. We took off VFR as it was clear but still dark, this being in the wintertime. Once we got down into the LA basin we did flight-following with LA approach. Since it was so early in the morning, the traffic into LAX was pretty light. We were monitoring approach, and looking for the runway lights at HHR, and getting confused. About this time, approach calls us, and says "Hawthorne is on your left, about a mile.. You planning on landing at LAX?? Seems the runway lights we were seeing was LAX's not HHR's.. Somewhere along the line we missed the fact that HHR's runway lights were only turned on by double-clicking the mike on the then-closed tower frequency.. We certainly had egg on our faces, but nothing ever came of it...
I learned to fly at HHR (almost 20 years ago), and I recall one of the biggest things that was stressed during ground school and with my instructor was understanding the airspace around LA, relating it to visual landmarks, knowing how and where you could "cross over" N/S. Being VFR only at that time, the EASIEST way for a GA pilot to recognize the boundary in this area is the 105 Freeway - once abeam CPM, stay south of the 105 and below 5000' (although you'd be lower than that if you were on an extended final into HHR) and you're clear of the Class B.
Lucky you know HHR terms and procedures. And yes, you need to have your eyes out to recognize landmarks and freeways.
Feel sorry for this guy.. He was diverted and got confused.
Tbh not great job by the controllers, specifically the Hawthorne controller getting all aggressive on a low hour pilot who just messed up due to being given complex and confusing directions inside some of the most complicated airspace in the country.
@@bobjohn2000 Right. ATC errors there. They are payed to help the pilots, not to confuse them.
The LAX Corridor is a little bit *_intimidating._* 😨
it is not funny to make an innocent turn mistake and find yourself going against the inbound LAX traffic. I know that area is well known in the GA community but that does not mean that people should go there unaware how close the GA lanes are to the "real" inbound lanes.
It’s not that intimidating, there are numerous VFR corridors he could’ve used to transition
That's the one bravo airspace you don't screw with.
I train out of KVNY and whenever we are close to LA's bravo my instructor points out that if we cross that line we vaporize. I think that's a good way to look at it.
And JFK
I'd say it's one of many. Washington DC, NYC, LA.
@@2011blueman I think Detroit Metro is the same way even with Willow Run being west of Metro.
Or just don't screw with any bravo
There's a reason why Los Angeles has mid-air collisions more than any other city in the U.S., their airspace resembles their freeway system... JEESH!
How do you not have a million subs for all this work you put in?! You definitely deserve many more than you have now! Thanks for once again an awesome video! 🙏🏼
Thank you very much, Nina, for your support! Sharing helps a lot :D
Because it's a niche market. It would be nice if everyone was as interested and educated and trying to rapidly absorb as much useful practical information as possible..... But nope. Ariana Grande has a new single out where she might show some side boob. Much more important.
"Possible pilot deviation, I have a number for you to call, let me know when you're ready to copy".
1-800-Fly-Delta
I am fascinated and confused by this channel. Fascinated, because of the drama that is portrayed by the videos. I'm also fascinated by the professionalism of the actors involved. It has me spell-bound.
I"m not associated with the airline business, and get frustrated when I don't either understand the incident or the specialized lingo. With this video, I watched it and scratched my head. I knew that something serious and threatening had occurred, but didn't know what it was.
I read the comments, spent an hour on them, and then re-watched. Aha! I said. Now I understand more fully. Thanks to VASAviation, and the pilots and ATCs who comment, I have a much clearer idea of what happened here, and what might have happened if not for the quick thinking of the 4090 pilot.
Thank you all
This was very serious. On August 31, 1986, Aeromexico Flight 498, a DC-9, collided with a Piper PA 28-181 Archer over Cerritos, California killing all 64 people on the Aeromexico flight, decapitated all three people on the Piper, and killed 15 people on the ground. The crash occurred under very similar circumstances. As a result of the accident, commercial planes are required to have TCAS and all private planes must have mode C transponders. Both were in action here.
I remember that. my mom refused to fly after that. There were parts of people everywhere.
So you're saying it would've been very serious, but multiple safety measures prevented it from being too serious.
Huntracony No, it *WAS* very serious, it *WASN'T* deadly.
If I remember correctly, wasn't that a Piper stolen by a GI out of Washington state?
If so all the rules and regs wouldn't have prevented anything. Think that's when class B airspace was created by Margaret Dole.
@@scottpatterson4105 No. The problem was that there was a separate incursion into the class B airspace, and the air traffic controller missed seeing the incident Piper.
I'd have that controller strung up for not giving Costa Rica a heads up on the traffic. They obviously knew about it and had it's location.
"Do you have an instructor onboard sir?" Lol auch! haha
it's probably a training airport
Sounds like he was kind of looking for someone to blame, which doesn't seem the best of times for it....
I don’t think it was so much someone to blame, more like the tower figured out the pilot was inexperienced, and were finding out if there was someone more experienced and better equipped to handle the situation on board. If there was a trainer on board, they wouldn’t allow a student polite to venture into that space in the first place, but in an emergency/dangerous situation someone who knows completely what they’re doing it better to talk to than a rookie.
A controller asked my friend if he has an instructor onboard just because he couldn’t understand the call sign 😂
Sharon Mo And I’ll that as another of the things that never happened
In the 1960's I was a student pilot, flying Cessna 150's. I've handed at Hawthorne, and it is possible to mix it up with LAX, especially if you're not familiar with the area. Fortunately, I had an instructor on board at the time, or I never would have attempted such a flight. And, yes, I could see LAX in the distance, only because he pointed it out to me. After landing, we went up into the tower to observe (with the tower's permission, they had a phone on the ground). While we were there (being VERY quiet) some yoyo in a light airplane with no radio communications flew the length of the runway and then did a pattern. Tower tried, but could not contact him. As he went buy one of the tower guys got out a red light with a handle, like WWII stuff, flashed it at the pilot, and said, (Quote)"ZAAP! You're Sterile!" The pilot made another circuit, and the tower cleared everybody out of his way. As he came in on final, the tower flashed him a green light. We thanked the tower people and diplomatically left at that time. The tower people were not happy with stupidity. If your situational awareness is faulty - you will die.
Tower, “Is there an instructor on board?”
Pilot, “”Welllll......yes, but he told me to tell you he’s not here.”
Seriously though, as a FAASTeam rep I did remedial training for a newly minted private pilot that busted ORD Bravo airspace a number of years ago. I’m not saying it is a common problem, but I can certainly see how it could happen to an inexperienced pilot. Especially in that seriously congested airspace around LAX.
Good job, Costa Rican pilots, remained calm while diving on final.
VAS, I really cannot compliment you enough on your videos. Incredibly professional, thorough presentations. Thanks so much for being you 👍🏼
Thank you so much for your support!
And people want flying cars to be given to the general public? Cessna pilot sounds like a good guy who made a mistake in some of the most complex airspace there is.
The Birdcage is a very scary place. I flew in and out of TOA and the 105 freeway was as my instructor said, the great wall of china, you pass it without an RSVP, and you die!!!! Compton, Hawthorne, and Santa Monica are all extremely difficult approaches especially for someone who gets rerouted and didn't have the time to get things sorted. When I flew in that area I kept a notepad next to me with the frequencies for the 6 major airports in the area (LGB, LAX, TOA, Hawthorne, Compton, Santa Monica) just in case something happened because things change fast in the Birdcage and in an emergency you could easily stray into the approach path.
Jeez this was close. The really scary thing was watching the Cessna also starting to decend when he realised he had violated, not realizing that he was chasing the A319 down. Very scary, thank goodness for TCAS
Hawthorne airport is right next to the Bravo which goes right down to the ground. I suspect this is not the first violation and it wont be the last. Thanks for posting it.
After the "Do. You. Have. An. Instructor. On. Board?" the Cessna pilot really started to feel the weight of the situation. I hope he’s still flying.. He must be one of the most cautious and attentive pilots existent today, following that incident.
@@budguy21 are you a pilot?
@@alanaldpal950 yes, based in the LA area
@@budguy21 well I hope if you ever make a mistake that you will just shred your license right away and not wait for “them to take it away”
@@alanaldpal950 "make a mistake" lmao way to trivialize what he did. This jackass obviously made zero effort to learn the landmarks of the Bravo airspace. Its not that hard, stay south of the 105 freeway. But if Im ever stupid and dangerous enough to fly my aircraft into the approach of a Class Bravo airport, I'll shred my license for my own safety. I'll even mail it to you. Whats your address?
Honestly although this Cessna didn't plan well enough and busted airspace his attitude remained professional. He owned his mistake and didn't try to employ one of the defense mechanisms that contribute to hazardous attitudes. That's my opinion as an instructor.
ATC recognized the dangerous situation but didn’t do anything to solve the problem.
you might have just been going to Bear Lake. Don't want to cross those holiday goers.
Shit, this is just more reason for me to never go back into SoCal. It's hell with a truck, and it sounds like another level of hell entirely with a plane
I'm suddenly even more grateful that I'm learning in pretty straightforward class G airspace - just got some class C a few thousand feet up, and that steps up higher if I head north a bit. I've seen a couple of airliners way overhead, and even changed direction once to avoid their wake turbulence, but basically I don't need to worry much about violating restricted airspace.
Also handy that the class G itself is really freaking quiet around my airfield, especially right now with COVID. Offhand I think I've only ever shared the airspace with one other aircraft, and that was my flight school's other Topaz.
Everywhere around LA county and orange county is a maze of class B and C airspace, special flight restrictions around the stadiums, disneyland, camp pendleton, etc. VFR flying at night in this airspace in a rented Cessna 172S isn't advisable.
It's almost akin to walking through a mine field blind
no kidding...i had my primary out of ktoa in the mid 80s..no gps,tcas or moving maps..fun times
@@mattf49006 hope you're good with landmarks lmao
+TheSpaceElefant ..this was in 1984...and yea i was..along with studying charts and a great instructor
In other words don't go around the Greater Los Angeles area without first consulting landmark maps and event alerts? That's real stupid.
I get confused driving in the Los Angeles area, I can't imagine that flying through the congested air space would be like. Sounds like it all worked out. Thanks for the video.
most pilots are trained to handle complex and difficult regional congestion. Just think of driving on freeways with clear locations in mind where you need to contact the radio operator just to yell at them that you are ok and under control and everyone would know where you plan to get off even miles from where you are now. No problem? And by the way the operators know exactly where to tell you to change frequencies so you hit the best operator to where you are and what you are doing all the time. relax.
These videos take me on an emotional ride. Love it, keep it up!
That was crazy close. ATC didn't do anything to immediately neutralize the danger, instead just pushed him off to another frequency, allowing him to continue on his path right into the LAX corridor.
Wrong controller, he doesn't control that airspace, so he can't do anything other than get the plane to talk the guy who does and can.
Proof that you always need to be on the lookout. It's just people behind the controls, wether you're driving or flying a jet.
This is why EVERY call made by a student flying solo should end with STUDENT PILOT. Let ATC know you are new, so they keep an eye on you. I almost made one with a Navy P3 doing pattern work in Jacksonville because of a similar situation back in my day
How do you know that this was a student pilot? It sounded to me like he more accurately lacked experience and made a serious error.
VOC4090 was heading towards Captain Maggie levels of coolness
Trek001 wasn't she absolutely great! I've seen grown men cry more on their wedding day...😂
ann nonymous Maggie knew she had a chance to avoid the incident, the marrying bud was running towards it 😬
Thanks for sharing. We all learn more and more from your videos.
After watching this I am glad that I stayed in simpler airspace until I had some experience!
I had Boston approach tell me I busted bravo airspace once. He was wrong and tried to bully me. I told him no worries I was 100 percent sure. I was on a GPS track, I had the Boston altimeter, and I had a huge landmark outside the correct window.
Back in the late 80s I was living in the south bay and a United 747 almost landed at Hawthorne thinking it was LAX. It was actually on final.
6:36 Looks like he's heading up there again until told to stay South of the 105. Or am I wide of the mark.
VASAviation is the Best!
As a pilot, I can assure you that it can get really confusing up there in congested airspace. The 172 pilot was going less than half the speed of those other aircraft, it's not like he can just jump in line with them, nor does he have the same instrumentation and support that they do (not to mention experience). The pilot should have requested vectors, and ATC should have offered a heading at a minimum. The guy was obviously lost and didn't know where he was.
Flying anywhere in LA is varsity for sure, would hate to be a newbie pilot around there.
SoCal is a “cluster-f#%k” for both pilots and ATC. Frankly, even with TCAS and mode c transponders, I am surprised there haven’t been more mid-air, like the one with the Aeroméxico flight in the 80’s. Especially since our airways are getting more and more congested.
Thanks to VASAviation for posting this so promptly and for the quality of your work, and thanks to the Volaris crew for how professionally and graciously they handled all this.
“collides *with* an airbus”
Maybe putting Hawthorne airport almost directly in the descent line of a major international airport was not too smart. Love these videos BTW
Right? It's literally 2 runway lengths to the southeast of LAX! They could probably just build a taxiway to it!
Its pretty normal really. Lots of commercial airports have city GA airports close or under their approach paths. The approach to YMEN is only 2-3 miles east and ever so slightly lower than the YMEL 34 approach. Literally there is a bridge with a vfr weypoint at one end and the jet final turn at the other
Looked like he was heading back over the freeway for a second incursion at the end there
Yep, he didn't read back the instruction to proceed direct to the runway. Atc didn't call him on it, then, shocker, he absolutely didn't do it. That was on the controller. Don't issue 2 instructions and allow just one read back.
There's a waypoint named LIMMA? That's almost as confusing as having an airline named Delta. Thankfully Doesn't Ever Leave The Airport is only an issue for ground control.
Quite shocking and a close call. I've flown quite a few times into HHR and know how tight it is there but I wish pilots would brief more AHEAD OF THEIR FLIGHT and be aware of their surroundings at all times. But again, these mistakes can happen to anyone and at least the pilot noticed that he busted the Bravo and screwed up.
So in other words a basic law of GA is to study charts of local major airports and to be able to determine ahead of time where to turn and where to avoid? How terrible.
The intimidating tone from LA approach and Hawthorne tower was unnecessary. Pilots know the severity of the situation and don't need any added aggression. This only makes things worse. Seems like controllers who are also pilots are much better at keeping a calm voice than non-pilot controllers. My experience as an airline pilot and former GA pilot.
I agree 100%. I commented the same thing above. I think it was extremely unnecessary and look very unprofessional. That HHR tower controller should probably stick to government jobs or flipping burgers.
That HHR tower controller was a unnecessarily a dick to N53440. He needs to lose his job and I hope he sees this comment. If he does, I have a phone number for you sir.
That’s SoCal on a good day. I’ve heard way worse the times I’ve flown through LAX. He’s lucky they didn’t chew him out for flying through Bravo
@Ryan Would you agree as a pilot that it's helpful to learn some surrounding landmarks before flying to a destination? I feel like that would've helped this GA guy a lot. Use something as a "Do Not Cross" line of sorts. The HHR controller used the 105 and that was a good idea. I can't blame him for being upset with this pilot. Of all things to be unaware of, Class B airspace is probably the worst. No one likes getting read the riot act or making it to RUclips, but sometimes it's called for. There was another crash in this area that was caused by very similar conditions. A lot of people died that day. Glad it didn't happen again. Hope the pilot gets back on the horse and is better for it
@@yzyzyzyz5032 I disagree. It may have seemed harsh, but it goes with the severity of the mistake. I don't know anyone involved here, but from what I just heard, it didn't sound like this pilot knew the area all that well. Depending on where you fly, that's life or death. Firing a controller for being on top of a class B airspace violator is pretty backwards. These are the kind of people that, as a controller, you SHOULD be on top of.
I have flown quite a bit around that airspace. If you are a student pilot OR unfamiliar, you can become confused easily (especially before the days of ForeFlight and modern GPS systems). The multiple shelves of LAX and tight spaces between airspace makes it a very busy time in the cockpit, especially if you are single pilot. Now I fly around the DEN airspace, and it's the same situation out here. Pay attention and you will be fine. Situational awareness is key no matter what rating you hold and how many hours of experience.
That airspace is tough, especially for being solo.
A tornado ripped through Ottawa and killed the power at the airport Friday 21st. I'm curious how they delt with it, the no power atc videos are always intense.
From the change his tone of voice, it’s as if the Cessna pilot figures out what just happened, despite being told by the approach controller that no one flagged him up. Wonder what made him twig.
"tagged you up" that is a new one on me.
i´d like to know how do you create your vids, they are excellent, could you make a vid about that?
I like this idea. A little behind the scenes of how the magic happens. Good idea.
I think it would be cool but I kinda don't want him/her to do it. If they do it then I think there will be hundreds of bullshit ones popping up on RUclips
Peter Bogomolov I disagree. Too much work for wannabes to even do half baked. They'd still need the tools, and Victor had the radar tool made just for him (us).
DON'T. keep them unique so always come to you!
It would be really fun to incorporate this into my videos. Maybe we can do a collab sometime...
This could have been a major disaster.... wow....
The Airbus got a warning that came with an advice, they followed that advice, and because of that the planes still stayed hundreds of feet apart. Granted, that's closer than one would like, but it was still a ways off from a disaster.
Yeah, it turned out ways off from a disaster but it very easily could have been one. Just imagine TCAS not working or the pilots not reacting immediately. The Cessna was actually descending at the same time so without TCAS they would probably have had a separation of only a hundred feet or so which would be waaaay to close for comfort.
Schuwi, Yeah, sure, a lot could have happened if a lot more went wrong. But that's the point I'm trying to make, a lot of things have to go wrong for something seriously dangerous to happen. Only one, maybe two things went wrong here.
Schuwi Every time a plane takes off it COULD be a major disaster if enough things go wrong. Luckily there’s enough redundancies built in that major disasters don’t happen very often.
Hawthorn & Compton are super tricky cuz they are right up against the LAX short final arrival flow (and the resulting Class B). If I landed at either I'd want to be working with SoCal approach AND let them know I'm unfamiliar so I get a little extra help and avoid a bigger problem. No way I'd fly into either airport (unless I did it all the time) without prep and approach help.
Thanks, Juan.
That airspace is not for amateurs!
What I cannot really understand why active COM frequency cannot be transmited using ads-b out and shown to atc and other pilots round you. It should help a lot in communication and there is enough capacity at ads-b with extended squitter to support this
Good idea but general aviation aircraft are not (at least yet) required to have ADS-B transmitters. I think they will be required starting in 2020 in the US
@@sbreheny i know. And that's what i cannot understand - why? Costs are not that high versus safety gain. And unfortunatelly in 2020 it will be only in US, in EU it's still mode-S
"traffic traffic, descend, descend now!!, Clear of Conflict"
is this mixed audio from different frequencies or do they really talk "follow the vehicle" and other ground stuff on the frequency they use for landing clearings etc?
Praise the lord for the TCAS
I think it’s funny how many people assume this was a student. With commercial planes almost landing on wrong airports or taxiways I think it’s premature to assume this guy was not a fully fledged private pilot. His radio coms were pretty calm and to the point; he knew when he was about to leave B,so he probably had ForeFlight or a 340. At night, he was trying to pick out the airport in a dense light environment, going north from Compton which is about a 5 minute flight into B. My question is, who diverted him? Who was he talking to? This is a very big deal as he came within 500ft of an A319. Major pilot error and without the TCAS it could have been catastrophic. But I think he knows he screwed up. Situational awareness, new airport, night, maybe singlehanded.... the only thing more intriguing would have been if he’d said “I’m an instructor”
A 340 is an audio panel..?
Your channel is the best
Hello. I was just looking at the sectional charts for KLAX during the Thousand Oaks fire situation and I see there is a restricted area for Thousand Oaks and Malibu. Is that in accordance with the instructions from the firefighters to have that area restricted from aircraft? I see a minor one southeast of the airport, oh never mind, that's the Disney Restricted Area. Scary.
Damn near killed my love.
Didn't seem like a particularly lax airspace to me.
Lol 🤣
yes
Never thought I'd see a video involving a Costa Rican airline or flight, that being my native country.
God I love this channel!
It’s going to be nice when the adsb mandate comes
What's with the "left 360" - how is that useful?
not a pilot but i think that he meant heading 0 (so, north), but its customary to say 360 (which, according to how circles work is the same) because its more clear
ATC are just as much to blame as the pilot for allowing the conflict to happen without noticing it.
Love the accents among the people speaking in the video
4:21 he said that just as I was thinking it...
Makes a case for all planes needing to have a transponder thats always on and has unique identifier.
ATC has a hard enough time as it is...
Wait, I thought they already had this? If not, how does VASAviation get the data to make the animated maps?
He probably did have a squwk code, as he was talking to Hawthorne Tower.
if hes VFR wouldnt he be squawking VFR then? 1200?
AADFWspotters2, he should have been given a unique code when he started talking to Compton.
That requirement is currently on commercial planes and is called ADS-B Out. I assume, in that airspace, everyone also gets a transponer code before they even reach the runway... But I'll defer to someone that has actually flown there...
You’re thumbnails crack me up lmao
Can anybody explain what LAX APP meant at 3:59 when they said “nobody tagged you”??
What does, "nobody tagged you up" mean?
Controllers can tag you up, which means they highlight your callsign to let other controllers know you are causing any kind of trouble or need assistance.
I see, thanks.
Thanks for asking that! Baseball on the brain here lol
I'm a controller and used to work there actually. It means a track wasn't started on their aircraft, which would entail assigning a discrete code, verifying position with an ident, and entering it into the system which would create a partial flight plan. The other controller could tell because when he looked up the callsign, there was no partial flight plan.
As any air traffic controller knows, "tag him up" means to paint him for targeting with surface to air missiles. What the pilot didn't know was that he was too close for missiles, so they were switching to guns.
I hope the Cessna pilot files a NASA report.
No FAA. You are in big shit. The Costa Ricans nearly died.
In nursing/medicine, we have shifted to 'Just Culture' and 'Safety Culture' from blaming and shaming. They foster accountability and learning without retaliation and persecution provided people act without gross negligence and with good faith. When people feel they can be honest about events and contributing factors, you can better learn WHY something happened, thus, what can be changed to prevent it in the future.
This is not the first pilot, and will not be the last, to make a human error. Learning how this could have been prevented is Safety Culture.
Props to pilot and tcas
The approach looks a little tight. They are going to need to remove small fields that are anywhere near the approaches to the major airports because eventually some little Cessna is going to get plowed by an Airbus. Doesn't matter who is in error at the point, just that the infrastructure made it that much more likely to occur.
I'm guesing the close up airport diagrams and the aircraft are not to scale? Those planes look way too big for the runway if so lol.
Damn these vids are gonna give me high BP😂
That's one cool cat, the pilot of the Costa Rican plane.