I totally understood your Tweet Elaine! I of course Liked it :-) HollyWoke has such a warped view of the longest running story in the history of mankind, the battle of good vs. evil. The subhumans making this trash have this Do whatever you want and feel attitude with no consequences for wrong doing. It's their trash why I barely watch anything new these days. I watch mostly old stuff television movies and shows. When I was in the Navy during the mid 90s I used to go to the movie theatre two to three times a week! Now I can barely go two to three times a year! Luv the content Elaine! This video was well reasoned and you made excellent points! My biggest complaint with the Jedi order is their forbiddance of attachments not being allowed to luv and have families. I believe you should be able to have your cake and eat it also! Keep up the great work!
@@kennylong653 I think the state Hollywoke is in today and the ideology that's being pushed is beginning to be more and more Authoritarian. We saw it with how Gina Carano was treated, and the sheer hypocrisy of Disney because when actress moses Ingram received a few nasty tweets over her casting in the Obi-Wan Kenobi series, Disney and even co-star Ewan McGreggor were very quick to white knight and defend Ingram. But when Gina Carano got just a whole tsunami of nasty, bigoted, vile toxic insults and attacks, Disney never did a thing. they had already decided from their own POV that Gina was the "bad guy" and was "anti-semitic". Now we have saw what this mob is all about in how they have attacked Elaine, all just from one little line where she was basically just pointing out the truth; and that same woke mob flew into a fit of rage at her. It's this whole attitude of - "If you are not with us then you are our Enemy." there is no chance, no room for OPINION because if your views are different to theirs, they won't listen and will try to either shout over you or just shut you down. this is purely what "Woke Ideology" does, it infects peoples minds, it is infact a Hivemind Virus. they are trying to brainwash and condition as many people as they can and this is becoming a much bigger issue in Western Society as a whole today. Wokeness, DEI doctrine and rules are now starting to be pushed in the video-games industry, that has caused a massive controversy right now. And it's going to move even further into our workplaces. We ALL really need to start pushing back against this stuff before it's too late.
Basically, people arguing against your "Jedi are good" statement do not understand good nor evil. This delusional crowd deceive themselves by denning the fact that THEY are evil. Unfortunately, the human majority embraces bad behavior because in their mind, a line separating good and evil does not exist. This immoral corrupted community exercises excuses (DEI, racism, sexism, or body image) to justify their evil actions and resemble simpletons, neglected children whom are oblivious to morals. These confused adults don't have a moral compass and are lost in their miserable life while blaming others for owned misery.
Think about it though.... is this out of line with the OT? Yoda started with the "hes too old to train". Then he didnt want him to go to save his friends. Luke followed his heart and listened to the force, something the Jedi preached, but had forgotten to practice. He also didnt listen about Vader, and not only saved his dad, but BY saving his dad, saved the galaxy! Ffs, Obi-wan lied to Luke about his dad! The Jedi are for sure THE good guys in the prequels/overall, but the reason they fell to the dark side was(while nuanced itself and multifaceted... pride, complacency with the sith seemingly gone, dogmatism) because they had strayed from the ideals they preached and had become not just imperfect, but more specifically hypocrites. They expected of others what they themselves didnt do. They looked down on and were fearful of others. Granted this isnt by any means all their fault... Sidious was working thousands of years of perfected sith practices on them. But even in the OT, there was a theme of Luke being a new type of Jedi. And for these very reasons. With the whole thing about the force ghost, it was almost as if the force itself had selected those who followed it most closely... (In spite of their flaws) Obi-wan, Yoda, Anakin... All three of these put following the force before any dogmatic principles, and all three were constantly putting their life on the line with a kind of faith in the force. They all also ultimately made 'ultimate sacrifices' trusting the force to see their ambitions realized, and giving up control themselves. But Luke didnt listen to Yoda. He did listen to the force. While Im sure its an unpopular opinion, Id say the same goes for Anakin. While he tried to be a good jedi(then later a 'good' sith), ultimately he did what he believed to be right, and trusted things would work out, even when that meant great sacrifices on his part. I definitely do think the jedi were the good guys, but I think it was good/intentional from the beginning to show them as the good guys, but imperfect. And Luke was a type of evolution into a more perfect/good form... A synthesis of the good, purified of the bad. That doesnt make the Jedi the bad guys. But you can definitely easily argue there are more than a handful of times they were in the wrong. Even while still being 'the good guys' narratively!
@@tandava-089 And a thousand nerds cried out... and pain was felt across the internet. Fiction is fiction with meaning and intent being dictated by the author. Viewers are free to interpret that meaning & intent differently. Still an interesting discussion, though. My take on it all? "Good guy" is not equivalent to "perfect guy". Good intentions pave the road to... well you know the rest.
The Jedi are certainly SUPPOSED to be good people. Once they do evil they are no longer real Jedi. Use the FORCE for knowledge and defence, NEVER for attacks. Yoda said that while training Luke, it seems to have been forgotten entirely
Isn’t this just the No True Scotsman fallacy tho? Sure, Jedi can be defined in an abstract way, but I think it’s more useful to define a Jedi by membership in the organization…the latter definition definitely muddies up the dichotomy
I agree. I know it's not fashionable or whatever, but I have seen the words "grateful" and "integrity" almost completely disappear from our language. They're been labeled as weak. Think about it, when was the last time you heard someone talk about having integrity? And I'm not talking about in church, no one goes to church. People may bring up a surface level mentioning of gratitude around Thanksgiving but that's all it gets. I just think that as a society we've become way less empathetic. It's kind of scary. And to be clear I'm agnostic, I don't go to church or anything like that
...you do realize the idea of Jedi being in the wrong is the cornerstone of KotORs and TOR, and NJO depicts Luke as a necessary reformer. "Today" has been going on for two decades for this franchise.
@@mpnuorva "being in the wrong".. how? Because they didn't see the Sith gaining power and manipulating things from behind the scenes? There is no comparison between the Sith and Jedi.
@@jevinday I never thought about that but I think you are onto something. I have noticed that love is out of fashion, though. When I recently watched Star Trek, the original series, love was a full counterpoint to action/violence. Now it feels like it's all action, violence and cynicism, with love and compassion awkwardly shoe horned in, or not a force at all. Or, who nkws, maybe it's just me.
Not recognizing the evil outcome because your naive adherence to dogmatic beliefs isn't evil, it's...too ivory towered, as in they had their head in the clouds... Stability leads to stagnation leads to corruption.
@@Redrgon25 such... Outdated euphemisms are used to control others behaviours. Inorder to achieve an egalitarian society, one must first excise all emotional need for control over others, and stop feeding All your emotions like it needs to eat three times an hour...😐🙄😐😐😑😐
I was baffled by the absolute bombardment of attacks your post attracted. How anyone could watch the Star Wars Saga and conclude anything else means they just missed the point entirely or are possibly trying to be contrarian just for contrarian’s sake. Either way I am glad you never backed down and confronted your detractors without giving in to them. Yoda would be proud!
Thank you for pointing this out. I guess the Empire is not a metaphor for every oppressive dictatorship ever. I guess making an example of innocent Alderaan to govern through terror is a matter of opinion. The Light side striving to coexist in balance with the universe vs. the Dark side amassing power for oneself at the expense of everything/everyone else. I don't get this trend of the "misunderstood villain". Every once in a while, there are actual villains in fiction.
They hide behind sympathetic villains without knowing what makes them sympathetic in the first place. Shitty writers really want to use villains to justify their shitty behaviour.
We have people projecting their own moral deficiencies upon the Jedi as a way to cope with their unwillingness to bend their effort and will toward cultivating redeeming qualities within themselves. When one has no heroes to emulate, no exemplars to inspire them, then they can have no aspirations and cannot embody virtue as an example for others to follow themselves. It is not an act of wisdom to allow an enemy to act against you. Even less so to fail to act against them. Steeping oneself in arguments regarding morality with those who have no moral basis to scrutinize their own decisions is a futile and unnecessary distraction.
I think a lot of people think of “morally grey” storytelling as being more intellectual or complex. They want to think that proclaiming they enjoy these stories makes them smarter than you. In fact, when not handled by a skilled writer, these grey tales tend to be either a confusing jumble of moral values or a boring muddle that ends up saying nothing. There is a reason that the “simple” good and evil tale of Star Wars resonates. It rejects the smug conceit of postmodern stories in favor of Campbell’s Hero of a Thousand Faces, drawing on archetypes that have survived millennia of re-telling.
No. Well... Not quite. A lot of SW fans are older. Older people are more likely to think on multiple layers. While, yes we like the swashbuckling hero who leaps in, kills all the guards and is proclaimed the hero for stopping the bad guy. But, now we are older... And more cynical... We are more likely to find it far-fetched and a bit silly. The real world isn't like that. Good guys can do bad things and be good. Bad guys can do bad things and still be good. (Look at Saw Gurrera) Anakin is a good guy right up till he becomes Darth Vader... But is he bad, or was he manipulated, dragged around and had his head fucked with by Palpatine and the Jedi council? Does that make Darth Vader a bad guy still? He is a victim after all. Are you going to victim blame him?
@@Kalamain I'm 47, and I like my sci-fi and fantasy to be fictional and fantastical. I like my heroes to be heroic and do good things, like destroying the evil. I like the bad guys to be clearly bad guys, and to earn their villain status doing bad things. Then I can cheer on the good guys as they dish out righteous fury upon the bad guys without any moral questions pricking at me. I get enough of that in the real world, thanks. The real world is depressing and full of problems. I have my own beliefs that govern my real life and what I expect out of real people. That's not how I like my entertainment. Just saying.
@@NameNotAChannel Hey, it's all good! The reason I liked Star Trek TNG was because not all the good guys were good. Not all the bad guys were bad and some people were just stupid, misled or ignorant. That is what made it so good! It spoke to a side of me that showed that not everything is 2D in storytelling. But it is what it is. You like your stuff and I like mine. But this is just people thinking about the stories and enjoying them on a different level.
@@Kalamain Now it is too much "not all the good guys were good" or "Not all the bad guys were bad" that it all become a monotone and 2d storytelling. For complexity, I like there are good guys, evil people and those in the middle.
You made perfect sense in your Tweet and you profoundly backed it up with this video. Unfortunately those who attacked you are clearly Dark Side users and can’t see reason. Love this and all your work and you’re without a doubt the most reasonable and knowledgeable with all these franchises that it boggles the mind that anyone would attack you for saying something totally inoffensive.🙏👍
I saw some of the responses you received, I agree it was disheartening. Some people's view of what good is so narrow, it would nearly be impossible to fit within its bounds, and thus they conclude no one is good. Then there are other people who only want or believe in morally ambiguous characters, and perceive goodness as a kind of naiveté.
An argument can be made that although the Jedi started out in a good place, a thousand years without true evil (in the form of the Sith) to fight against, led to them growing complacent, arrogant, and even politically compromised. The Sith have always been a dark mirror to the Jedi, clearly showing the wrong path, and what walking down it may lead to. Without that dark mirror, clearly showing what NOT to do, it's not surprising that the Jedi strayed off the path of righteousness.
This happens quite often when you look at the greater cycle throughout the galaxy's timeline. There have been FOUR great schisms within the Jedi Order between Jedi who upheld their original purpose to be of service to the people of the GFFA and wield the force for their benefit and the 'Dark Jedi' who saw the Force as a tool and a weapon that made them 'divinely touched' and therefore held the right to rule over 'lesser mortals'. It was the Third Great Schism that gave birth to the Sith Order and lead to the events of KOTOR. The Fourth Great Schism is what lead to the downfall and the 'Dark Age of the Republic' before the High Republic that 'Stood for a Thousand Years' we know in the prequel trilogy. The Jedi Order has been destroyed four times in total while the Sith Order has been destroyed three. Luke's New Jedi Order was the 5th incarnation.
If you don't understand heroism you can't make a distinction in duality. Interpretation becomes distortion and critism becomes personal because these stories are actual self projection of the writers slash show runners.
I've had multiple Disney Star Wars fans trying to convince me that the Jedi were evil. The actor who plays "Yord" was clearly given talking points from Disney to try and portray Luke (Anakin lol 😆) as bad because he blew up the Death Star. Lucasfilm under Kathleen Kennedy has completely lost the plot and core principles of what Star Wars is. They've cultivated Disney fans who foolishly adhere to this bizarre corruption of what George Lucas developed.
Jedi were an organisation that striving for peace and order. In prequels we first see them as envoys only fighting when being attacked. The order is not in best shape when we see it, it's the twilight of this organisation, but still they are trying to keep the peace.
I think these days, many people like the concept of not only the anti-hero, but anti-villain. It's too 'simple' to think in 'Light' and 'Dark', but everything must be 'Gray', now. I appreciate how you do upfront say the Jedi are not perfect, that they have flaws. I had a friend recently say she couldn't stand the Jedi at all now given only seeing the first two episodes of Acolyte. She even went so far that she'd join the Empire(!). Honestly, it really seems that Disney is trying to change the idea/narrative of the Jedi into something 'they' own and can change, manipulate.
"You see, the war, the true war, has never been one waged by droids, or warships, or soldiers. They are but crude matter, obstacles against which we test ourselves. The true war is waged in the hearts of all living things, against our own natures, light or dark. That is what shapes and binds this galaxy, not these creations of man. are the battle ground." -Kreia, Star Wars Knights of The Old Republic II: The Sith Lords.
I cannot believe we have come to a point where you have been forced to make a response video due to the backlash for saying the Jedi are the good guys. Thanks Disney.
It’s funny. The first person to tell me the Jedi weren’t ’good guys’ was my mother. We had seen the original films together when I was a kid. She asked me if I’d like to see TPM with her so we could experience Star Wars together again. While I had already seen it twice, and had my issues with the film, I agreed to take her to see it. When the credits rolled, I was surprised to see my mom visibly upset. As we left the theater, I asked what she thought of the film. “I absolutely hated it”, she replied. Again, I had my own issues with the film, but I didn’t hate it. I asked her why she felt that way and her reply caught me a bit off guard. “I thought the Jedi were supposed to be the good guys! But they spent almost the entire film exploiting a child and putting him in danger”! I told her that she was overreacting a bit. But she stood her ground. “They pressured a 9 year-old to enter a race that people were getting killed in! And after that, took him to an active war zone and left him unattended”! I had to admit she had a point. But she wasn’t done there. She pointed out that it was downright evil for the Jedi to persuade parents to surrender their small children to the Jedi Order, especially when it could get them killed. She didn’t bother seeing Ep2 and 3 because it had upset her that much.
Even back when, as a 14 year old in the theater, watching Luke throw his lightsaber on the ground, I was speechless. Goosebumps. THE perfect moment in the series for me personally. Deep down, although imperfect, I am a good, righteous person, and nothing or nobody can ever change that. Palpatine? Pfft... GFY. Katherine Kennedy too. 🤘
I can certainly understand the telling of a story that involves a Jedi, or some Jedi, committing some morally ambiguous or bad act in the process of their duties, even if it doesn't involve that Jedi fully falling to the Dark Side. If I remember correctly, this has been done at least a few times so far. What I *do* have a problem with is completely recontextualizing Jedi as just any other political/military/religious power structure that does what is necessary to maintain their position of power, even if it means violating their stated morality, as if that's all they ever have done or will do. This seems to be the goal of The Acolyte (and maybe most of Disney Star Wars as a whole, among several other things). I'm not 100% sure because I refuse to watch The Acolyte.
The Jedi sublimate their own will and emotions to follow the will of the cosmic force, and in doing so gain the power to predict the future and influence minds. I can see the potential for making a story where the Jedi take this too far and become the bad guys but it'd be closer to Superman: Red Son than anything from Disney Star Wars.
After the finale of the Acolyte, I wholeheartedly feel as though the Jedi are being painted as soulless authoritarians instead of peacekeepers. I got this from Jedi Survivor with Dagan Gera's backstory but Acolyte finale hammered it home.
@@jaccobmarrero6021 I still say the prequels Jedi were better than the high republic Jedi it just seems in that era the republic use the Jedi for everything and a government that doesn’t have a military or police force is a dumb idea Jedi are meant to be peacekeepers and negotiators allies to the republic not it servants. Honestly the acolytes and Dagan Gera are bad introduction to the high republic Jedi “What the Jedi are meant to be” but it felt like they are just full of themselves and no different what the Jedi we have now just with fancy clothing.
@@jaieregilmore971 which is honestly a waste of opportunities because you'd think we'd see different glimpses of the Jedi other than "their arrogant assholes who decides what's best" sort of outlook. I would love to see the era that gave the Jedi the image of peacekeepers.
Since 2015 Disney has done everything in their power to destroy the Jedi. Luke Skywalker isn't in the Force Awakens. These is no new Jedi Temple, There is no New Jedi Order. Luke Skywalker has run away from his Responsibility and now sits on an Island talking about the Huberis of the Jedi and how they were too arrogant, they abuse they're power. We never saw any Jedi acting pretentious, we were just told they're flawed. Plus none the Disney Plus series feature Jedi as the main characters. The Jedi are just missing after Return of the Jedi. It's sad how Star Wars is being rewriten for a modern audience.
@@Infamous1892 I don't see how, and I didn't namecall. You can read Lucas script and plot outlines for his sequel trilogy. Most if the EU was wiped out in it. Han and Leia had different kids. Luke would be a jaded old man and would die in episode 9. Episode 7 was centered on the quest for anakins Saber. Ben would ge corrupted by Darth talon. Rey was instead Kira. Lucas and Kathleen Kennedy had been working on this for months before Disney made their initial offer abd bought the company. These are just facts. Some of these ideas were reworked into what we got. But old EU was dying either way.
Those who are uncomfortable with Star Wars being a classic tale of good vs. evil, and believe that the jedi exist in moral ambiguity, clearly do not understand Star Wars or more accurately George Lucas' Star Wars.
He attempted to modernize an ancient story, he did good by it, I'll say that much, but, applying real world morals and motivations to the plot... It doesn't fit, unless you let go of ego.
@@Lobsterwithinternet he modernized an old cultural meme about the battle for the human soul (which we lost...), so, not "just" a movie, but a character assesment of our current society.
Remain silent and be thought a fool or speak and remove all doubt.-Some smart guy. What would a Jedi do? Sith? Oh snap! Did I say that? I think the main idea of the original tale is restoring balance. That’s deep and all, but Mr. Lucas hit it out of the park for many people whether they comprehend or not. The follow-ups are trying SO HARD to do it too, but they don’t seem to understand… The balance is restored. The end. Anakin brought balance. The struggle made for a epic story, too. Mr. Lucas claimed the best part of the tale and did it well. They know they’ll never have it. The best they can do now is drop it and start from scratch. Get your own stories, fools.
Well said! You have embodied the values of the Jedi in your measured and clear response and did not give in to anger and hate like so many online today.
I suggest that a plurality, if not, the majority, of people taking you to task are conflicted about their own world view and the evil things they have done. They have to tear down the heroes of the world so they don’t have to aspire to that standard.
Kathleen Kennedy wants to turn Star Wars into her own narrative. This involves getting rid of George Lucas' influence on the show. To do this, in the present Star Wars universe, she got rid of Luke Skywalker. In the past , she did away with the expanded universe and replaced it with the high republic. Basically, she doesn't want the old Star Wars fans. She want to create fans for her new Star Wars. Hollywood agrees with her, which is why we get so much public pushback if we don't like her shows.
Luke tossing his lightsaber aside is one of the most powerful moments in cinema and, I think, the final word in his "argument" to his father that he doesn't have to continue making the same wrong choice over and over again and that there is someone who believes he can change so much that they are willing to put their fate in his hands, even as far as he has fallen. Pretty much the ultimate expression of hope and optimism that is supposed to define the Jedi.
I also saw it as Luke's rejection of the old jedi code of no attachments and no love (with how it was worded in the prequels). Luke's love of his father was able to overcome what countless jedi and other powerful people couldn't do. He "saved" his father and defeated the emperor, because he refused to kill his own father, out of love. I think that's what convinces Vader to change, in his final moments, and turn on the emperor, to protect his son, to accept and return the the love that Luke is giving freely, at the probable expense of his own life.
@@eamonnholland5343 Unconditional love, it was Unconditional love that saved Anakin. Something Anakin states the Jedi teach them in Episode 2. Luke let go of his attachments in Return of the Jedi, in order to reject the Dark Side.
Great video NC. The Star Wars George Lucas created that, as you beautifully showed, had clear light and dark sides, was tying into universal mythological concepts most of humanity historically loved and still does. In our “modern” age the powers that be are more interested in sexual orientations and destroying concepts like “a good side” which is a perversion of humanity’s shared history, our shared mythology, thus alienating the majority of viewers because they don’t identify with a world where evil is really good, and a persons identity profile is the most important thing in the universe.
Ok I will throw my hat in the ring here and probably upset some people but whatever. The truth is any nuanced debate about anything star wars is practically impossible on open social media as too many of the most loudest and quite frankly irrational voices shout everyone down. While many are very emotionally connected to star wars that it kind of hides the point that overall the themes, morality and even in universe lore is very simplistic. Like people act like its complex but it really isn't. The bad guys were portrayed traditionally as cartoonishly evil and the good guys , well they are the good guys. The Jedi initially were never meant to have any real nuance, they were an order of morally pure knights protecting the galaxy from evil. It was only later authors and to a lesser extent Lucas himself who tried to paint them as a little more nuanced. Lucas trying (and failing) to show them a little more nuanced in the prequels while I like the ideas (power hungry for the sake of good, structurally flawed etc etc) they never came off on screen that way because they could only ever be shown as the unequivocal good guys. Hence the confusion. People saying that they were perfect is technically as inaccurate as saying they were evil. But lets not pretend there is some great hidden undertext with what Lucas was going with. The whole "stealing babies" thing was probably Lucas attempting to show the levels Jedi go in their training in that it starts from birth but didn't fully think through the implications of how that would come off. Later material like the clone wars mostly showed people excited to give up their babies for the most part to dance around the issue. Lucas was not a social scientist, that is very clear from his world building.
@@takedakiwi Like Star Wars universe overall is not terrible it just a little inconsistent tonally and philosphically. Like one person summed it up for me "Star Wars is not a deep universe, its a simple one with cool elements." Look at majority of fans they know the jedi, empire etc etc. But most don't know anything about the greater fiction as it was mostly filled in decades later, a lot of it by different writes (case in point Timothy Zahn made fan favourite Thrawn, not Lucas), so it can be tonally inconsistent. But I don't entirely blame Lucas a lot mainstream series can fall apart under legit scrutiny. Like lets be honest Star Treks Prime Directive kinda falls apart morally if you really pick at it. Not to mention Rodenberry's rumored dislike of Jews slipped through with the Ferengi if accusations are to be believed.
A lot of the whole debate boiled down to somehow good now equals infallible in the eyes of the general public. It was a pointless debate because in the end no one’s mind is going to be changed. Disney Star Wars fans don’t believe anyone can be the good guy anymore.
Leslie Headland could have handled this show of her's way better. I think this witch coven could have worked well, because the idea of other factions of Force Sensitives, outside of the Jedi and Sith is very interesting. the Dathomirian Witches were written really well in the Clone Wars series, how they tried to play both Obi-Wan/Anakin and Count Dooku. I think Leslie Headland drew inspiration and ideas from all the wrong things. She described her Acolyte series as - Kill-Bill meets Frozen meets Fight Club lol. Not the best combination. If she had just drew inspiration from something like the So'Na in Star trek Insurrection, not a great movie by miles but the idea of this group of people, living peacefully on a planet that grants eternal youth, is quite compelling. If Leslie's Witches were more like spiritual kind of monks, or something, and they use and understand the Force in a totally different way; where they can prolong life, not be immortal but where they just take a more kind of buddhist approach shall we say. And then the Jedi discover them and there's like this situation where the Sith are alerted to these witches and intend to use them for their own cynical means. to unlock their secrets of their powers through the force. I don't no, maybe Leslie Headland should have just never made this series, now I'm hearing rumors she has said she would like to make a Kotor movie about Kreia; the way Kathy Kennedy keeps giving out starwars movies to anyone like candy, god help us.
This is why a good character needs to be conflicted. To get the job done, sometimes you need to do bad things. This is why Saw Gerrera is such a good character in the stories. The good guys need to keep a tame bad guy to do the things they know are bad... BUT NEED TO HAPPEN.
Hey Elaine, very good response! That discussion that´s going on for years now is really getting on my nerves to be honest. I don´t even understand what those, mostly men from the United States, are trying to reach. They seemngly need the are trying to convince themselves that they see the good guys when they look into a mirror. What they´ve reached is that I turned my back to Star Wars for a long time now. And I will never turn back (ok, with the exception of Andor ;) )
It would be impossible to separate my morality and lessons taught in the OT. There is a simple message about doing what you can for friends and family, as it is superior to do things only for ourselves. Pleasing fulfils needs, so one could say there are no selfless acts. However, this is a different statement than dismissing the Jedi as bad guys simply because they have flaws!
You are of course right. Many people currently don't seem to have very good discernment, and say nonsensical things. Others simply jumped at the chance to pick a fight out of envy most likely, in my very humble opinion. Forgive them all if you can, they are but Foolish Mortals. Superb video.🙃😘
My thought is that more people need to learn the Hero's Journey and the Villain's Journey of storytelling, this way they have a solid foundation for figuring out who is good and who is evil in a story.
Yes, pretty much. George Lucas wanted to add and then play with other literary themes, like ; the "redemption arc" for Anakin / Darth Vader, or the growth of Anakin set against the growth of Darth Sidious's evil through the action of his "plan", and whatever his other planned "sequel(s)" were going to be...
Thank you! Not everything has to be morally gray. Not that morally gray stories are bad or anything like that, both ways of storytelling are equally valid.
The old Jedi as presented in the PT and Clone Wars were dogmatic, rigid, militant and callous. The idealized version that Obi-wan and Yoda presented to Luke reduced and tried to eliminate those qualities. Subsequent installments in the sequels show Luke as being the same as the old Jedi. The misunderstanding is that Luke was supposed to restore the Order to a simpler less dogmatic more compassionate place. We never got to see that except in Legends.
You do know that there is more than one "postmodern" worldview. And..."postmodern" to what? The pop music of 1950 is a lot different than the pop music of 1980 or 2020, but all of them are placed under the term of "pop music" until someone in a later generation gives them a new name...bebop, rock-and-roll, new wave, jazz...all of it was termed "pop music" at some point in the past. So what "postmodern" worldview are you specifically railing against?
As an adept of the White Current says in a book (which is for me Canon, not Legend) : it's all a question of intention. Adepts of the light side of the Force always use it with the best intentions (but not always in the right way). While adepts of the dark side use the Force with less...charitable intentions. So I agree with you, Jedi are the goods. But do they deserve the admiration and deference that we give them in Star Wars ? That's another question. If I go in the debate, I wonder if the opinion of equating light and dark is not linked to the deconstruction that Disney is doing to Star Wars. Ultimately, deconstructing Star Wars means deconstructing the myth, so we must destroy the Jedis. And it is clear to me, as a fan of the first trilogy and the extended universe (Legend, up to the Yunhzan Vong), that Star Wars today no longer conveys the values that made me love Star Wars. This debate highlights this difference in values between generations of fans, in my opinion.
mygod. The internet is so broken. The trolls are so broken. How your simple statement generated such a backlash is so astonishing to me. It is a sorry state of things that you had to defend your statement. But it had to be done. Keep up the good work. Your observations, critiques and reviews are on point.
Nerd Cookies.... you seem to understand the situation just fine. Today's world celebrates moral ambiguity which leaves no place for Good vs Evil. If approached wisely, even the idea of "Grey Force" users could bring forth interesting stories. Love your channel. Keep up the good work!!
Some people don't handle subtlety well. I think it has to do with letting go of easy, black-and-white concepts of morality once you reach the age of reason.
Just because individuals are flawed does not mean that the ideals that the group strove for could not be ideal. Jedi are the defenders of light and good, while the Sith are the seekers of power and evil.
Avatar The Last Airbender depicted Aang defeating Ozai The Fire Lord beautifully along with Aang's conflicts with the possibility of taking a life which went against the Airbender code, despite the wisdom of past Avatars. Your tweet is absolutely spot on too, Elaine. Disney Star Wars treading on the grey area of the Jedi further complicated the lore while unnecessary. Kennedy, Abrams, etc, already had a blueprint to work with but they dropped the ball, big time!
Wow that started a debate?? Watching Star Wars as a child I remember seeing them that way good and bad, right and wrong. As an adult i understand Mr Lucas better, twice he gave us the answer to this question once in a Empire strikes back and once in Revenge of the Sith. "Luke, you’re going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view." "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!"
I agree with you. Consider though your statement was made in a time and 'place' where for nearly 20-30 years, at least some amount of greed and selfishness is acknowledged as a virtue in the US and, if media is to be believed, most other parts of the world. It's not surprising to me that putting a qualitative value 'good' on greed's opposite concepts of selflessness and compassion will be met with 'mixed feelings'. I distinctly recall conversations with 2 different people telling me that I was too 'good' some 20 odd years ago. That at best people will take advantage of me and at worst, everyone will hate me for it.
Wow I couldn't say it better than you. You have perfectly and articulated this subject so well. Thank you so much for doing this. People especially Disney fans have a poor misconception about the Jedi and Good vs Evil.
Watching Empire in theatres when it came out, Darth Vader was truly terrifying. When the story is new and you just don't know how bad he can be, he's worse than the xenomorph in Alien.
I would add that in addition to the Jedi having a moral code of conduct/teachings that help guide them to make good choices, it’s also the love and faith Luke has for his father that helps bring Vader back from the Dark Side. The love you have and get from your child I hope would warm even the coldest of hearts.
The other issue is more then ever entertainment is becoming a substitution for living a good balanced life. Thus the desire to make every form of entertainment into a reflection of the world itself. It’s their substitute for living in the world. 🌎
Yoda once again said a lot w few words, "Pride and Ego are defects far too common in Jedi of this age" not an exact quote but it reveals that the Jedi had already fallen before they fell.
@@RS8XB it is in Attack of the Clones (i think), he is floating in his chair walking with I believe Obiwan in the halls and they are having a converation. Obiwan comments that Anikan is getting cocky and Yoda a replies with the comment about it being too common these days. I will try to find it on RUclips and post a link later when I can.
dude you don't even know the quote let alone understand it. Lucas explained it on the commentary track, “We contrast [the previous scene where Palpatine boosts Anakin’s ego] with the three Jedi and show Obi-Wan’s concern about the fact that his apprentice is getting ahead of himself, and he’s arrogant. And Obi-Wan is kinda put down a little bit by Yoda, there, 'cause Yoda says that that arrogance exists in the older Jedi too, which is a way of warning Obi-Wan that he may be suffering the same hubris.”
@@ssl3546you own comment shows that you don't read or understand what you read before you speak. While you needed to defer to someone else's analysis the sum of both says THE SAME THING in principle. Grow up kid. Do better.
It's simple, Jedi are the peace makers of the galaxy. They were inspired by Samurai and the knight chivalry. Disney Star Wars is dead cause they don't know what Star Wars is.
You do know the samurai were not the good guys, right? They worked for feudal landholders to control peasants with violence. The knights of Europe were even worse. Look at how many times they invaded the middle east, slaughtering Jews and Muslims alike who would not convert to Christianity.
The Samurai were beholden to a master. They followed the laws set by the Daimyo. The Jedi are not. They travel around to other places and insist on THEIR rules. Sometimes different cultures have different rules.
@@Kalamain ....Listen closely because I'm about to educate you on the Jedi Code. *There is no emotion, there is peace.* *There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.* *There is no passion, there is serenity.* *There is no chaos, there is harmony.* *There is no death, there is the Force.* A Jedi Padawan does not become a Jedi Knight until he can demonstrate a clear understanding of the Jedi Code. The Knight Trials are a series of tests explicitly to see if the Padawan understands each tenant of the code and lives by it. A Jedi Knight does not become a Jedi Master until they become a living embodiment of the Jedi Code. The vast majority of the Galaxy has membership of the Galactic Republic. That means they ALL AGREE that there is a BASELINE RULE OF LAW they all agree to. If you do NOT agree or are culturally incompatible with these laws, you are not permitted membership to the Republic. The Jedi serve as peacekeepers, mediators, and troubleshooters BY REQUEST OF THE REPUBLIC when problems arise between state members. While their intentions are first and foremost diplomatic, they understand that the galaxy is dangerous and are always prepared to defend themselves and others. Their loyalty is to The Code First, The Jedi Order Second, and finally The Galactic Republic. Your comment is bullshit and straight up violates both the second AND fourth tenants of the code.
Once you read, and understand, Wittgenstein you come to realize that many of the truths we cling to rely greatly on our own points of view. The Jedi are good, just like Vader betrayed and murdered Anakin. The problem of good and bad, is.... Good for what? Bad for whom? There is no objective value structure because there is no objective point of view. And anyone saying otherwise is lying to you in order to manipulate you. "Only the Sith deal in absolutes" after all. The Jedi are certainly good for some, but what about for the slaves on Tatooine? These aren't simple questions and there are no easy answers. It only appears to be black and white on a superficial level, but as soon as you go a little bit deeper, it all psychedelic baby!
I agree, the Jedi are Good. Yes they make mistakes, thats what makes them relatbable to us. We want to (mostly) be good even though its not always easy or clear, we make mistakes. As a whole the Jedi work for the good of the universe. The new trend of everything needing to be toeing the line and degrading heroes, promoting anti-heroes is now already overplayed. Take us back to the classic fight of good versus evil, it doesnt get old. Give our community "a new hope" to be better, we need it now in our society more than ever.
Ah, to Disney 'fans' even mentioning that name is meaningless or heretical because they see the EU as invalid. The EU did a true continuation of the story, although not perfect(and nothing can be). The fact that Disney immediately did away with it tells me a lot about what they intended and makes their attempt at a timeline nothing but a bastardization.
@@Bastion83 to be fair, Lucas was going to ditch it as well, he was already 1 draft through his new sequel trilogy which didnt feature Jacen, Jaina, Anakin, and Ben... So it was gone either way. Disney just got to be the bad guys that did it during their transition.
@@Bastion83 Ironically, I see the same problem with saying "all Jedi are bad guys now" as "all people who enjoy some Disney programming are bad Star Wars fans". Stereotyping is stereotyping. I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bath water.
@@rikk319 I would agree with you but I've literally found nothing within Disney Star wars worth saving. Along with the fact that Disney prefers to.... Empower a variety of fan isn't big on discourse, but more rabid defense of what they claim as theirs. I saw some things within the old era of Star wars that I could take or leave. Loved the tapestry that was woven. The whole of what Disney has created to replace what they disregarded however...... I see no value or depth in it.
I think most people who push back on the whole the Jedi are the good guys is because some of them want Star Wars to be more complex than what it actually is thinking that everyone needs to be a morally gray character like in game of thrones or dune when that isn’t the case at all for Star wars it’s always been about good vs evil story sure both the light side and the dark side have more depth to them as is shown in the clone wars but they are still good and evil and that is fine it’s ok to like a story about good vs evil doesn’t make your taste in stories better or worse it just means you love certain styles of fiction not everything needs to be a morally complex story that transcends all reality it just needs to be fun
I never thought in a million years, that there would be the day that people would argue against the premise: the Jedi are the good guys. W. T. F. is going on?!
So glad i am a Cookie Swordmaster! Jedi were and always will be a damn paragon of the light. It's visual, auditory, and literally their whole get up. This whole extended universe nonsense brought on by the clone wars show and Disney. Even post Return of the Jedi books about the order that Luke forms after the war, the "gray" Jedi are still Jedi. Hell, the only argument that can be made against them was in an extended universe book, that stated that Palpatine was right to try to resurrect the old sith empire because sith lords would have been more brutally efficient than Jedi in the Yuuzhan Vong war. Even this isn't necessarily true, as even sith would be stumbed at how to go about dealing with a freaking voxyn. Well... look up what it cost to defeat that menace. Do you all think a sith would act so selflessly as Solo did in his final moment? Not talking about Han, I'm talking about Anakin Solo. Look, there's a lot of people out there who are invested for very strange reasons that are divorced from the backbone of the original trilogies themes and it will only get worse as time drags on. You nailed this one right on the head with all your quotes and research. Great job!!!
What's happening especially in Star Wars now is called desensitization. Entertainment is taking stories and characters known to be good and evil and making them all morally grey. It works for some characters and stories, but not all. Star Wars has and it will forever remain a tale of good vs evil.
It is perhaps a little more complicated that simply Jedi = Good, Sith = Bad, but by and large it's correct. The failings of the (prequel era) Jedi order are perhaps as much due to becoming part of a large bureaucracy, and becoming an integral part of the power structures, rather than any overt or deliberate malice. The Republic Commando series of books by Karin Traviss explore the idea of the Jedi not automatically being the good guys, and as much as Traviss evidently earned a reputation for being overtly anti-Jedi in her "politics", I quite enjoyed the way she approached the topic in the books. They're also very good military sci-fi in their own right, if that's a genre that holds any appeal.
The diehard Star Wars fan base can be blindly cruel and close minded. If Jedi are not the good guys, if there is no Jedi magic and lightsabers nor Skywalkers, they think it is a bad production and an unfair comment. The Jedi made a series of huge mistakes, were corrupt and lacked many of the values they preached as important. Yoda himself recognized that, even being guilty of it himself. The Star Wars universe is huge and there are many stories, not involving Jedi/Sith, to be told. That is why I welcome series like Andor. Try not to take personally the comments from trolls. Keep up the good job you usually do. Thanks for the video!
There's a lot of non-canon story elements that question Jedi morality like in the clone wars novelization there are some quotes from Dooku about this. But, if we want to stick strictly with canon stuff it is a bit questionable that Anakin hesitates to execute Dooku in 3, saying he needs to be tried, but then Mace Windu goes full judge jury executioner against Palps. There's probably a couple more examples hiding somewhere in the Disney canon stuff, but I have to admit that GL was particularly consistent making it a classic good vs evil situation (likely to appeal more to kids.)
I agree entirely. The Jedi are, and always WERE, the good guys. The "modern audience" who wants there to be "moral ambiguity" (out of sheer cynicism and spite, if nothing else) here are just attacking you on X for clout. You were and still are correct.
I was at first surprised you gave a darn about what the Internet People think, but then it did spark an interesting video. Agreed they are the "good guys" in this sense, and that sometimes the good guys mess up from time to time. Personally I think Yoda and Obi-Wan wanted Luke to assassinate Vader, but that was their failing, and Luke embodied the Light Side better than anyone ever did. Luke was the "Galahad" of Star Wars, as it were.
Most people have been conditioned to agree with the bad guy more than the good guy. This came about in the Dark Knight Trilogy. Where afterwards we have been getting Villains that seem to have good arguments against the hero. Suddenly the hero was seen as meek, weak, and naive. While the villain was seen as the beholder of truth and knowledge. With that in mind, you have individuals questioning the good side more so the bad. Putting the finger at the morally just and courageous. At time siding with the morally corrupt and decadent. Later people began to view the villain as the hero of the story. Or taking that saying too literal. That being said, people are trying to find ways to denigrate the morally good. Be it real life and fiction. Seeking to find the slightest flaws within to blow them to exaggerated proportions in order to justify diminishing their importance. To prove there is not good in the world. And the correct path is to obtain power. Nobody wants to be a good guy anymore. They also have this scewed view on being good means you're trying to be perfect. As you pointed out in the video Elaine, they are not good because they are perfect. They are good cause they are flawed and trying their best to not slip into the dark. They are disciplined. And that is what is lacking in today's society, discipline. But I'll leave it there.
It’s sad that some people are unable to comprehend the Jedis are the good guys. Yeah they have flaws, but they wouldn’t be interesting if they were perfect. Despite their flaws, they’re still the good guys. The Sith are the bad guys. It’s a tale of good and evil and at the end of Return of the Jedi, the good guys win.
In one perspective: good and bad are 2 sides of the same coin. We label things good and bad because this world functions as a duality. You can't have one without the other.
It's largely because CERTAIN DEMOGRAPHICS have become so hyperfocused on their own identities that that IS theor story. But identity isn't a story, it's a characteristic. So we end up with non-stories without moral or development past maybe better embracing oneself.
When there’s no such thing as objective reality these days, only opinions that must be given equal weight, is it any surprise that some people think there’s no good or evil either?
An interesting video by all means. It ought be perfectly clear that the Jedi are Good. Sadly large segments of our society are really confused about such things now. Your response here is well thought out and executed superbly. Great job as always.
People that believe the Jedi are not good or are even the villains are people who are morally bankrupt themselves. I gave up watching Star Wars a long time ago, once Disney bastardized the IP. But I've heard comments that the Acolyte may show the Jedi as child stealing bad guys. This is one of the reasons they have lost so many fans.
The Jedi used an army of clones that were essentially human slaves bred to obey with little, if any regard for their lives... did a single Jedi ever ask if this was ethical? If people see that as clearly the behavior of "good guys" then I guess we'll just have to disagree...
Thank you for watching this video! If you enjoy my content, please consider supporting me on PATREON: www.patreon.com/nerdcookies
I totally understood your Tweet Elaine! I of course Liked it :-) HollyWoke has such a warped view of the longest running story in the history of mankind, the battle of good vs. evil. The subhumans making this trash have this Do whatever you want and feel attitude with no consequences for wrong doing. It's their trash why I barely watch anything new these days. I watch mostly old stuff television movies and shows. When I was in the Navy during the mid 90s I used to go to the movie theatre two to three times a week! Now I can barely go two to three times a year! Luv the content Elaine! This video was well reasoned and you made excellent points! My biggest complaint with the Jedi order is their forbiddance of attachments not being allowed to luv and have families. I believe you should be able to have your cake and eat it also! Keep up the great work!
@@kennylong653 I think the state Hollywoke is in today and the ideology that's being pushed is beginning to be more and more Authoritarian. We saw it with how Gina Carano was treated, and the sheer hypocrisy of Disney because when actress moses Ingram received a few nasty tweets over her casting in the Obi-Wan Kenobi series, Disney and even co-star Ewan McGreggor were very quick to white knight and defend Ingram. But when Gina Carano got just a whole tsunami of nasty, bigoted, vile toxic insults and attacks, Disney never did a thing. they had already decided from their own POV that Gina was the "bad guy" and was "anti-semitic".
Now we have saw what this mob is all about in how they have attacked Elaine, all just from one little line where she was basically just pointing out the truth; and that same woke mob flew into a fit of rage at her.
It's this whole attitude of - "If you are not with us then you are our Enemy." there is no chance, no room for OPINION because if your views are different to theirs, they won't listen and will try to either shout over you or just shut you down. this is purely what "Woke Ideology" does, it infects peoples minds, it is infact a Hivemind Virus.
they are trying to brainwash and condition as many people as they can and this is becoming a much bigger issue in Western Society as a whole today. Wokeness, DEI doctrine and rules are now starting to be pushed in the video-games industry, that has caused a massive controversy right now. And it's going to move even further into our workplaces. We ALL really need to start pushing back against this stuff before it's too late.
Basically, people arguing against your "Jedi are good" statement do not understand good nor evil. This delusional crowd deceive themselves by denning the fact that THEY are evil. Unfortunately, the human majority embraces bad behavior because in their mind, a line separating good and evil does not exist. This immoral corrupted community exercises excuses (DEI, racism, sexism, or body image) to justify their evil actions and resemble simpletons, neglected children whom are oblivious to morals. These confused adults don't have a moral compass and are lost in their miserable life while blaming others for owned misery.
Think about it though.... is this out of line with the OT? Yoda started with the "hes too old to train". Then he didnt want him to go to save his friends. Luke followed his heart and listened to the force, something the Jedi preached, but had forgotten to practice. He also didnt listen about Vader, and not only saved his dad, but BY saving his dad, saved the galaxy!
Ffs, Obi-wan lied to Luke about his dad!
The Jedi are for sure THE good guys in the prequels/overall, but the reason they fell to the dark side was(while nuanced itself and multifaceted... pride, complacency with the sith seemingly gone, dogmatism) because they had strayed from the ideals they preached and had become not just imperfect, but more specifically hypocrites. They expected of others what they themselves didnt do. They looked down on and were fearful of others. Granted this isnt by any means all their fault... Sidious was working thousands of years of perfected sith practices on them.
But even in the OT, there was a theme of Luke being a new type of Jedi. And for these very reasons. With the whole thing about the force ghost, it was almost as if the force itself had selected those who followed it most closely... (In spite of their flaws) Obi-wan, Yoda, Anakin... All three of these put following the force before any dogmatic principles, and all three were constantly putting their life on the line with a kind of faith in the force. They all also ultimately made 'ultimate sacrifices' trusting the force to see their ambitions realized, and giving up control themselves.
But Luke didnt listen to Yoda. He did listen to the force. While Im sure its an unpopular opinion, Id say the same goes for Anakin. While he tried to be a good jedi(then later a 'good' sith), ultimately he did what he believed to be right, and trusted things would work out, even when that meant great sacrifices on his part.
I definitely do think the jedi were the good guys, but I think it was good/intentional from the beginning to show them as the good guys, but imperfect. And Luke was a type of evolution into a more perfect/good form... A synthesis of the good, purified of the bad.
That doesnt make the Jedi the bad guys.
But you can definitely easily argue there are more than a handful of times they were in the wrong.
Even while still being 'the good guys' narratively!
@@tandava-089 And a thousand nerds cried out... and pain was felt across the internet.
Fiction is fiction with meaning and intent being dictated by the author.
Viewers are free to interpret that meaning & intent differently.
Still an interesting discussion, though.
My take on it all?
"Good guy" is not equivalent to "perfect guy".
Good intentions pave the road to... well you know the rest.
A lot of people want to be “edgy” and “dark”. Shrug.
Qui-Gon Jinn was “edgy” and “light”.
One just have to go far enough to the light side.
"You know it don't come easy."
Dark Horse got it spot on with Cade Skywalker
@@Naptime48but ultimately Cade chose to be a Jedi and the light side he wasn’t perfect though.
@@jaieregilmore971 No one is perfect. Saying someone "isn't perfect" is like saying "water is wet".
@@rikk319 yeah that the point even as person at there worse it isn’t too late to do good again.
The Jedi are certainly SUPPOSED to be good people. Once they do evil they are no longer real Jedi. Use the FORCE for knowledge and defence, NEVER for attacks. Yoda said that while training Luke, it seems to have been forgotten entirely
Supposed to fight the Sith...not join them?😏😀😃😅🤣
The Sith always had the best powers in Kotor.
Force Crush, Lightning, and the Jedi were stuck with Force Jump and Heal.
@@keungwan5901 Good points, but don't forget "force afterlife," assuming that counts. No Sith do the afterlife glow trick, do they?
Isn’t this just the No True Scotsman fallacy tho? Sure, Jedi can be defined in an abstract way, but I think it’s more useful to define a Jedi by membership in the organization…the latter definition definitely muddies up the dichotomy
People today are so morally bankrupt... "I'd don't care if you boo me. I've seen what you cheer for."
"YOUR BOOS MEAN NOTHING I'VE SEEN WHAT MAKES YOU CHEER."
I agree. I know it's not fashionable or whatever, but I have seen the words "grateful" and "integrity" almost completely disappear from our language. They're been labeled as weak. Think about it, when was the last time you heard someone talk about having integrity? And I'm not talking about in church, no one goes to church. People may bring up a surface level mentioning of gratitude around Thanksgiving but that's all it gets. I just think that as a society we've become way less empathetic. It's kind of scary. And to be clear I'm agnostic, I don't go to church or anything like that
...you do realize the idea of Jedi being in the wrong is the cornerstone of KotORs and TOR, and NJO depicts Luke as a necessary reformer. "Today" has been going on for two decades for this franchise.
@@mpnuorva "being in the wrong".. how? Because they didn't see the Sith gaining power and manipulating things from behind the scenes?
There is no comparison between the Sith and Jedi.
@@jevinday I never thought about that but I think you are onto something. I have noticed that love is out of fashion, though. When I recently watched Star Trek, the original series, love was a full counterpoint to action/violence. Now it feels like it's all action, violence and cynicism, with love and compassion awkwardly shoe horned in, or not a force at all. Or, who nkws, maybe it's just me.
Failure to achieve your good intent is not the same as having evil intent.
Not recognizing the evil outcome because your naive adherence to dogmatic beliefs isn't evil, it's...too ivory towered, as in they had their head in the clouds... Stability leads to stagnation leads to corruption.
The road to hell is paved with good intentions & who decides if the intention is good or evil.
@@Redrgon25 such... Outdated euphemisms are used to control others behaviours. Inorder to achieve an egalitarian society, one must first excise all emotional need for control over others, and stop feeding All your emotions like it needs to eat three times an hour...😐🙄😐😐😑😐
It's kinda funny cause muddying the waters about good and evil is one of the ways Palpatine manipulates Anakin into turning to the dark side.
"You were right, Elaine. Tell the cynics... you were right."
Perfect!
Awesome!
Excellent! Cannot be expressed in any better way. Video goes to my permanent Star Wars cannon playlist.
I was baffled by the absolute bombardment of attacks your post attracted. How anyone could watch the Star Wars Saga and conclude anything else means they just missed the point entirely or are possibly trying to be contrarian just for contrarian’s sake. Either way I am glad you never backed down and confronted your detractors without giving in to them. Yoda would be proud!
Thank you for pointing this out. I guess the Empire is not a metaphor for every oppressive dictatorship ever. I guess making an example of innocent Alderaan to govern through terror is a matter of opinion. The Light side striving to coexist in balance with the universe vs. the Dark side amassing power for oneself at the expense of everything/everyone else.
I don't get this trend of the "misunderstood villain". Every once in a while, there are actual villains in fiction.
They hide behind sympathetic villains without knowing what makes them sympathetic in the first place. Shitty writers really want to use villains to justify their shitty behaviour.
We have people projecting their own moral deficiencies upon the Jedi as a way to cope with their unwillingness to bend their effort and will toward cultivating redeeming qualities within themselves.
When one has no heroes to emulate, no exemplars to inspire them, then they can have no aspirations and cannot embody virtue as an example for others to follow themselves.
It is not an act of wisdom to allow an enemy to act against you. Even less so to fail to act against them.
Steeping oneself in arguments regarding morality with those who have no moral basis to scrutinize their own decisions is a futile and unnecessary distraction.
sure. project much?
xD
I think a lot of people think of “morally grey” storytelling as being more intellectual or complex. They want to think that proclaiming they enjoy these stories makes them smarter than you. In fact, when not handled by a skilled writer, these grey tales tend to be either a confusing jumble of moral values or a boring muddle that ends up saying nothing. There is a reason that the “simple” good and evil tale of Star Wars resonates. It rejects the smug conceit of postmodern stories in favor of Campbell’s Hero of a Thousand Faces, drawing on archetypes that have survived millennia of re-telling.
Yep, I often refer to this as "morally grey sludge"...
No.
Well... Not quite.
A lot of SW fans are older.
Older people are more likely to think on multiple layers.
While, yes we like the swashbuckling hero who leaps in, kills all the guards and is proclaimed the hero for stopping the bad guy.
But, now we are older... And more cynical... We are more likely to find it far-fetched and a bit silly.
The real world isn't like that.
Good guys can do bad things and be good.
Bad guys can do bad things and still be good. (Look at Saw Gurrera)
Anakin is a good guy right up till he becomes Darth Vader... But is he bad, or was he manipulated, dragged around and had his head fucked with by Palpatine and the Jedi council?
Does that make Darth Vader a bad guy still?
He is a victim after all. Are you going to victim blame him?
@@Kalamain I'm 47, and I like my sci-fi and fantasy to be fictional and fantastical. I like my heroes to be heroic and do good things, like destroying the evil. I like the bad guys to be clearly bad guys, and to earn their villain status doing bad things. Then I can cheer on the good guys as they dish out righteous fury upon the bad guys without any moral questions pricking at me. I get enough of that in the real world, thanks.
The real world is depressing and full of problems. I have my own beliefs that govern my real life and what I expect out of real people. That's not how I like my entertainment.
Just saying.
@@NameNotAChannel Hey, it's all good!
The reason I liked Star Trek TNG was because not all the good guys were good.
Not all the bad guys were bad and some people were just stupid, misled or ignorant. That is what made it so good!
It spoke to a side of me that showed that not everything is 2D in storytelling.
But it is what it is.
You like your stuff and I like mine.
But this is just people thinking about the stories and enjoying them on a different level.
@@Kalamain Now it is too much "not all the good guys were good" or "Not all the bad guys were bad" that it all become a monotone and 2d storytelling.
For complexity, I like there are good guys, evil people and those in the middle.
Even the Sith knew the Sith were the evil ones.
You made perfect sense in your Tweet and you profoundly backed it up with this video. Unfortunately those who attacked you are clearly Dark Side users and can’t see reason.
Love this and all your work and you’re without a doubt the most reasonable and knowledgeable with all these franchises that it boggles the mind that anyone would attack you for saying something totally inoffensive.🙏👍
Very wee said!! The Jedi are the good, albeit flawed, good guys.
I saw some of the responses you received, I agree it was disheartening. Some people's view of what good is so narrow, it would nearly be impossible to fit within its bounds, and thus they conclude no one is good. Then there are other people who only want or believe in morally ambiguous characters, and perceive goodness as a kind of naiveté.
An argument can be made that although the Jedi started out in a good place, a thousand years without true evil (in the form of the Sith) to fight against, led to them growing complacent, arrogant, and even politically compromised.
The Sith have always been a dark mirror to the Jedi, clearly showing the wrong path, and what walking down it may lead to. Without that dark mirror, clearly showing what NOT to do, it's not surprising that the Jedi strayed off the path of righteousness.
This happens quite often when you look at the greater cycle throughout the galaxy's timeline.
There have been FOUR great schisms within the Jedi Order between Jedi who upheld their original purpose to be of service to the people of the GFFA and wield the force for their benefit and the 'Dark Jedi' who saw the Force as a tool and a weapon that made them 'divinely touched' and therefore held the right to rule over 'lesser mortals'.
It was the Third Great Schism that gave birth to the Sith Order and lead to the events of KOTOR.
The Fourth Great Schism is what lead to the downfall and the 'Dark Age of the Republic' before the High Republic that 'Stood for a Thousand Years' we know in the prequel trilogy.
The Jedi Order has been destroyed four times in total while the Sith Order has been destroyed three. Luke's New Jedi Order was the 5th incarnation.
If you don't understand heroism you can't make a distinction in duality. Interpretation becomes distortion and critism becomes personal because these stories are actual self projection of the writers slash show runners.
Just more proof that we've been transported to the mirror universe...
No... Just people don't blindly consume what is put before them.
The world isn't black and white. They are shades of grey... Morally speaking as well.
@@Kalamainironic as plenty of people blindly consume Disney content and call it quality. Laughable.
@@Bastion83 Meh.
I'm not much for Disney stuff since The Black Hole back in the 70s!
But it is what it is.
'sheer volume of unreasonable pushback' see, this is why i try not to talk sense on the internet
I've had multiple Disney Star Wars fans trying to convince me that the Jedi were evil. The actor who plays "Yord" was clearly given talking points from Disney to try and portray Luke (Anakin lol 😆) as bad because he blew up the Death Star.
Lucasfilm under Kathleen Kennedy has completely lost the plot and core principles of what Star Wars is.
They've cultivated Disney fans who foolishly adhere to this bizarre corruption of what George Lucas developed.
the new generation of disney star wars content is no longer good vs evil , so new fans of these shows will not accept this truth of jedi vs sith
You are correct. The End.
Jedi were an organisation that striving for peace and order.
In prequels we first see them as envoys only fighting when being attacked.
The order is not in best shape when we see it, it's the twilight of this organisation, but still they are trying to keep the peace.
I think these days, many people like the concept of not only the anti-hero, but anti-villain. It's too 'simple' to think in 'Light' and 'Dark', but everything must be 'Gray', now.
I appreciate how you do upfront say the Jedi are not perfect, that they have flaws.
I had a friend recently say she couldn't stand the Jedi at all now given only seeing the first two episodes of Acolyte. She even went so far that she'd join the Empire(!).
Honestly, it really seems that Disney is trying to change the idea/narrative of the Jedi into something 'they' own and can change, manipulate.
I stand with you.
"You see, the war, the true war, has never been one waged by droids, or warships, or soldiers. They are but crude matter, obstacles against which we test ourselves. The true war is waged in the hearts of all living things, against our own natures, light or dark. That is what shapes and binds this galaxy, not these creations of man. are the battle ground." -Kreia, Star Wars Knights of The Old Republic II: The Sith Lords.
I cannot believe we have come to a point where you have been forced to make a response video due to the backlash for saying the Jedi are the good guys. Thanks Disney.
It’s funny. The first person to tell me the Jedi weren’t ’good guys’ was my mother. We had seen the original films together when I was a kid. She asked me if I’d like to see TPM with her so we could experience Star Wars together again. While I had already seen it twice, and had my issues with the film, I agreed to take her to see it.
When the credits rolled, I was surprised to see my mom visibly upset. As we left the theater, I asked what she thought of the film. “I absolutely hated it”, she replied. Again, I had my own issues with the film, but I didn’t hate it. I asked her why she felt that way and her reply caught me a bit off guard. “I thought the Jedi were supposed to be the good guys! But they spent almost the entire film exploiting a child and putting him in danger”! I told her that she was overreacting a bit. But she stood her ground. “They pressured a 9 year-old to enter a race that people were getting killed in! And after that, took him to an active war zone and left him unattended”! I had to admit she had a point. But she wasn’t done there. She pointed out that it was downright evil for the Jedi to persuade parents to surrender their small children to the Jedi Order, especially when it could get them killed.
She didn’t bother seeing Ep2 and 3 because it had upset her that much.
Yet he was a child slave. He could be killed or sold to another more abusive owner. His own mother sold him.
Even back when, as a 14 year old in the theater, watching Luke throw his lightsaber on the ground, I was speechless. Goosebumps. THE perfect moment in the series for me personally. Deep down, although imperfect, I am a good, righteous person, and nothing or nobody can ever change that. Palpatine? Pfft... GFY. Katherine Kennedy too. 🤘
I can certainly understand the telling of a story that involves a Jedi, or some Jedi, committing some morally ambiguous or bad act in the process of their duties, even if it doesn't involve that Jedi fully falling to the Dark Side. If I remember correctly, this has been done at least a few times so far.
What I *do* have a problem with is completely recontextualizing Jedi as just any other political/military/religious power structure that does what is necessary to maintain their position of power, even if it means violating their stated morality, as if that's all they ever have done or will do. This seems to be the goal of The Acolyte (and maybe most of Disney Star Wars as a whole, among several other things). I'm not 100% sure because I refuse to watch The Acolyte.
Plus even if they made the Jedi morally ambiguous it doesn’t really much change the Sith and the acolyte will still continue to do evil in the end.
The Jedi sublimate their own will and emotions to follow the will of the cosmic force, and in doing so gain the power to predict the future and influence minds. I can see the potential for making a story where the Jedi take this too far and become the bad guys but it'd be closer to Superman: Red Son than anything from Disney Star Wars.
After the finale of the Acolyte, I wholeheartedly feel as though the Jedi are being painted as soulless authoritarians instead of peacekeepers. I got this from Jedi Survivor with Dagan Gera's backstory but Acolyte finale hammered it home.
@@jaccobmarrero6021 I still say the prequels Jedi were better than the high republic Jedi it just seems in that era the republic use the Jedi for everything and a government that doesn’t have a military or police force is a dumb idea Jedi are meant to be peacekeepers and negotiators allies to the republic not it servants. Honestly the acolytes and Dagan Gera are bad introduction to the high republic Jedi “What the Jedi are meant to be” but it felt like they are just full of themselves and no different what the Jedi we have now just with fancy clothing.
@@jaieregilmore971 which is honestly a waste of opportunities because you'd think we'd see different glimpses of the Jedi other than "their arrogant assholes who decides what's best" sort of outlook. I would love to see the era that gave the Jedi the image of peacekeepers.
George openly stated that his films were based on timeless story telling troupes. That is not the style of content we are getting.
Since 2015 Disney has done everything in their power to destroy the Jedi. Luke Skywalker isn't in the Force Awakens. These is no new Jedi Temple, There is no New Jedi Order. Luke Skywalker has run away from his Responsibility and now sits on an Island talking about the Huberis of the Jedi and how they were too arrogant, they abuse they're power. We never saw any Jedi acting pretentious, we were just told they're flawed. Plus none the Disney Plus series feature Jedi as the main characters. The Jedi are just missing after Return of the Jedi. It's sad how Star Wars is being rewriten for a modern audience.
A lot of those ideas came from Lucas' script for episode 7
@@RomanPhilosopher you sound like you rode the short bus in school.
@@Infamous1892 I don't see how, and I didn't namecall. You can read Lucas script and plot outlines for his sequel trilogy. Most if the EU was wiped out in it. Han and Leia had different kids. Luke would be a jaded old man and would die in episode 9. Episode 7 was centered on the quest for anakins Saber. Ben would ge corrupted by Darth talon. Rey was instead Kira. Lucas and Kathleen Kennedy had been working on this for months before Disney made their initial offer abd bought the company. These are just facts. Some of these ideas were reworked into what we got. But old EU was dying either way.
Well, only Count Dooku, Anakin Skywalker, and Ben Solo from Jedi turn into the Dark side
Thank for this clip, Elaine
The Darkside, not the bad side...
Those who are uncomfortable with Star Wars being a classic tale of good vs. evil, and believe that the jedi exist in moral ambiguity, clearly do not understand Star Wars or more accurately George Lucas' Star Wars.
He attempted to modernize an ancient story, he did good by it, I'll say that much, but, applying real world morals and motivations to the plot... It doesn't fit, unless you let go of ego.
@@seanhewitt603George Lucas did that himself when he made the prequels.
@@Lobsterwithinternet did the fans?
@@seanhewitt603 It's a movie.
Everyone is going to read things into it that aren't there.
They're not making the movie.
@@Lobsterwithinternet he modernized an old cultural meme about the battle for the human soul (which we lost...), so, not "just" a movie, but a character assesment of our current society.
Remain silent and be thought a fool or speak and remove all doubt.-Some smart guy.
What would a Jedi do? Sith?
Oh snap! Did I say that?
I think the main idea of the original tale is restoring balance.
That’s deep and all, but Mr. Lucas hit it out of the park for many people whether they comprehend or not.
The follow-ups are trying SO HARD to do it too, but they don’t seem to understand…
The balance is restored. The end.
Anakin brought balance. The struggle made for a epic story, too.
Mr. Lucas claimed the best part of the tale and did it well.
They know they’ll never have it.
The best they can do now is drop it and start from scratch.
Get your own stories, fools.
Best synopsis of Star Wars I’ve seen.
Well said! You have embodied the values of the Jedi in your measured and clear response and did not give in to anger and hate like so many online today.
Thank you! I try to be as reasonable as possible. It is just entertainment after all. I really appreciate your support! 🙏
I suggest that a plurality, if not, the majority, of people taking you to task are conflicted about their own world view and the evil things they have done. They have to tear down the heroes of the world so they don’t have to aspire to that standard.
Kathleen Kennedy wants to turn Star Wars into her own narrative. This involves getting rid of George Lucas' influence on the show. To do this, in the present Star Wars universe, she got rid of Luke Skywalker. In the past , she did away with the expanded universe and replaced it with the high republic. Basically, she doesn't want the old Star Wars fans. She want to create fans for her new Star Wars. Hollywood agrees with her, which is why we get so much public pushback if we don't like her shows.
Thank you. Anyone who can't see it hasn't been paying attention, is paid off, or willfully ignorant.
Luke tossing his lightsaber aside is one of the most powerful moments in cinema and, I think, the final word in his "argument" to his father that he doesn't have to continue making the same wrong choice over and over again and that there is someone who believes he can change so much that they are willing to put their fate in his hands, even as far as he has fallen. Pretty much the ultimate expression of hope and optimism that is supposed to define the Jedi.
I also saw it as Luke's rejection of the old jedi code of no attachments and no love (with how it was worded in the prequels). Luke's love of his father was able to overcome what countless jedi and other powerful people couldn't do. He "saved" his father and defeated the emperor, because he refused to kill his own father, out of love. I think that's what convinces Vader to change, in his final moments, and turn on the emperor, to protect his son, to accept and return the the love that Luke is giving freely, at the probable expense of his own life.
@@eamonnholland5343 Unconditional love, it was Unconditional love that saved Anakin. Something Anakin states the Jedi teach them in Episode 2. Luke let go of his attachments in Return of the Jedi, in order to reject the Dark Side.
Well said and agreed. Another awesome video to you and your team. You are my favorite host on YT.
Great video NC. The Star Wars George Lucas created that, as you beautifully showed, had clear light and dark sides, was tying into universal mythological concepts most of humanity historically loved and still does. In our “modern” age the powers that be are more interested in sexual orientations and destroying concepts like “a good side” which is a perversion of humanity’s shared history, our shared mythology, thus alienating the majority of viewers because they don’t identify with a world where evil is really good, and a persons identity profile is the most important thing in the universe.
Ok I will throw my hat in the ring here and probably upset some people but whatever. The truth is any nuanced debate about anything star wars is practically impossible on open social media as too many of the most loudest and quite frankly irrational voices shout everyone down. While many are very emotionally connected to star wars that it kind of hides the point that overall the themes, morality and even in universe lore is very simplistic. Like people act like its complex but it really isn't. The bad guys were portrayed traditionally as cartoonishly evil and the good guys , well they are the good guys. The Jedi initially were never meant to have any real nuance, they were an order of morally pure knights protecting the galaxy from evil. It was only later authors and to a lesser extent Lucas himself who tried to paint them as a little more nuanced. Lucas trying (and failing) to show them a little more nuanced in the prequels while I like the ideas (power hungry for the sake of good, structurally flawed etc etc) they never came off on screen that way because they could only ever be shown as the unequivocal good guys. Hence the confusion. People saying that they were perfect is technically as inaccurate as saying they were evil. But lets not pretend there is some great hidden undertext with what Lucas was going with. The whole "stealing babies" thing was probably Lucas attempting to show the levels Jedi go in their training in that it starts from birth but didn't fully think through the implications of how that would come off. Later material like the clone wars mostly showed people excited to give up their babies for the most part to dance around the issue. Lucas was not a social scientist, that is very clear from his world building.
Didn't he study anthropology?
Spot on with that comment. I have loved the Star Wars universe since I saw E4 as a teenager, but its not really a safe moral compass!
@@Hello-bi1pm That doesn't mean you are an expert at social structures or morality tale in fiction. Boy is Lucas not when you actually dig into it.
@@takedakiwi Like Star Wars universe overall is not terrible it just a little inconsistent tonally and philosphically. Like one person summed it up for me "Star Wars is not a deep universe, its a simple one with cool elements." Look at majority of fans they know the jedi, empire etc etc. But most don't know anything about the greater fiction as it was mostly filled in decades later, a lot of it by different writes (case in point Timothy Zahn made fan favourite Thrawn, not Lucas), so it can be tonally inconsistent. But I don't entirely blame Lucas a lot mainstream series can fall apart under legit scrutiny. Like lets be honest Star Treks Prime Directive kinda falls apart morally if you really pick at it. Not to mention Rodenberry's rumored dislike of Jews slipped through with the Ferengi if accusations are to be believed.
A lot of the whole debate boiled down to somehow good now equals infallible in the eyes of the general public. It was a pointless debate because in the end no one’s mind is going to be changed. Disney Star Wars fans don’t believe anyone can be the good guy anymore.
Leslie Headland could have handled this show of her's way better. I think this witch coven could have worked well, because the idea of other factions of Force Sensitives, outside of the Jedi and Sith is very interesting. the Dathomirian Witches were written really well in the Clone Wars series, how they tried to play both Obi-Wan/Anakin and Count Dooku.
I think Leslie Headland drew inspiration and ideas from all the wrong things. She described her Acolyte series as - Kill-Bill meets Frozen meets Fight Club lol. Not the best combination. If she had just drew inspiration from something like the So'Na in Star trek Insurrection, not a great movie by miles but the idea of this group of people, living peacefully on a planet that grants eternal youth, is quite compelling.
If Leslie's Witches were more like spiritual kind of monks, or something, and they use and understand the Force in a totally different way; where they can prolong life, not be immortal but where they just take a more kind of buddhist approach shall we say. And then the Jedi discover them and there's like this situation where the Sith are alerted to these witches and intend to use them for their own cynical means. to unlock their secrets of their powers through the force.
I don't no, maybe Leslie Headland should have just never made this series, now I'm hearing rumors she has said she would like to make a Kotor movie about Kreia; the way Kathy Kennedy keeps giving out starwars movies to anyone like candy, god help us.
This is why a good character needs to be conflicted.
To get the job done, sometimes you need to do bad things.
This is why Saw Gerrera is such a good character in the stories.
The good guys need to keep a tame bad guy to do the things they know are bad... BUT NEED TO HAPPEN.
@@Kalamain "It is only when you put barriers before your character that they learn how to fly."
Hey Elaine, very good response!
That discussion that´s going on for years now is really getting on my nerves to be honest. I don´t even understand what those, mostly men from the United States, are trying to reach. They seemngly need the are trying to convince themselves that they see the good guys when they look into a mirror.
What they´ve reached is that I turned my back to Star Wars for a long time now.
And I will never turn back (ok, with the exception of Andor ;) )
It would be impossible to separate my morality and lessons taught in the OT. There is a simple message about doing what you can for friends and family, as it is superior to do things only for ourselves. Pleasing fulfils needs, so one could say there are no selfless acts. However, this is a different statement than dismissing the Jedi as bad guys simply because they have flaws!
You are of course right. Many people currently don't seem to have very good discernment, and say nonsensical things. Others simply jumped at the chance to pick a fight out of envy most likely, in my very humble opinion. Forgive them all if you can, they are but Foolish Mortals. Superb video.🙃😘
Star Wars Legends material has a lot lot lot more context to add to this simple statement that causes such a response
My thought is that more people need to learn the Hero's Journey and the Villain's Journey of storytelling, this way they have a solid foundation for figuring out who is good and who is evil in a story.
Yes, pretty much. George Lucas wanted to add and then play with other literary themes, like ; the "redemption arc" for Anakin / Darth Vader, or the growth of Anakin set against the growth of Darth Sidious's evil through the action of his "plan", and whatever his other planned "sequel(s)" were going to be...
Thank you! Not everything has to be morally gray. Not that morally gray stories are bad or anything like that, both ways of storytelling are equally valid.
The old Jedi as presented in the PT and Clone Wars were dogmatic, rigid, militant and callous. The idealized version that Obi-wan and Yoda presented to Luke reduced and tried to eliminate those qualities. Subsequent installments in the sequels show Luke as being the same as the old Jedi. The misunderstanding is that Luke was supposed to restore the Order to a simpler less dogmatic more compassionate place. We never got to see that except in Legends.
postmodern worldview has claimed star wars.
Perhaps they should be called "postmodern audiences" not modern
You do know that there is more than one "postmodern" worldview. And..."postmodern" to what? The pop music of 1950 is a lot different than the pop music of 1980 or 2020, but all of them are placed under the term of "pop music" until someone in a later generation gives them a new name...bebop, rock-and-roll, new wave, jazz...all of it was termed "pop music" at some point in the past.
So what "postmodern" worldview are you specifically railing against?
As an adept of the White Current says in a book (which is for me Canon, not Legend) : it's all a question of intention. Adepts of the light side of the Force always use it with the best intentions (but not always in the right way). While adepts of the dark side use the Force with less...charitable intentions. So I agree with you, Jedi are the goods. But do they deserve the admiration and deference that we give them in Star Wars ? That's another question.
If I go in the debate, I wonder if the opinion of equating light and dark is not linked to the deconstruction that Disney is doing to Star Wars. Ultimately, deconstructing Star Wars means deconstructing the myth, so we must destroy the Jedis. And it is clear to me, as a fan of the first trilogy and the extended universe (Legend, up to the Yunhzan Vong), that Star Wars today no longer conveys the values that made me love Star Wars. This debate highlights this difference in values between generations of fans, in my opinion.
mygod. The internet is so broken. The trolls are so broken. How your simple statement generated such a backlash is so astonishing to me. It is a sorry state of things that you had to defend your statement. But it had to be done. Keep up the good work. Your observations, critiques and reviews are on point.
To our Nerdy Wan Kanobi,
Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good. ❤
Well we have idiots on the streets protesting in favor of HAMAS, so many people are confused these days.
But we also have idiots who don't have the subtlety to differentiate between HAMAS and Palestinians in general...or military targets and children.
Found the genocide denier
Nerd Cookies.... you seem to understand the situation just fine. Today's world celebrates moral ambiguity which leaves no place for Good vs Evil. If approached wisely, even the idea of "Grey Force" users could bring forth interesting stories. Love your channel. Keep up the good work!!
Even Lord Soth was once a Knight of the Rose. Does his fall from grace sully the entirety of the Solamnic Orders?
Some people don't handle subtlety well. I think it has to do with letting go of easy, black-and-white concepts of morality once you reach the age of reason.
Just because individuals are flawed does not mean that the ideals that the group strove for could not be ideal. Jedi are the defenders of light and good, while the Sith are the seekers of power and evil.
I’ve been thinking this for a while. No matter how you slice it the Jedi are an overall good for the Galaxy.
Thanks for the support!
Avatar The Last Airbender depicted Aang defeating Ozai The Fire Lord beautifully along with Aang's conflicts with the possibility of taking a life which went against the Airbender code, despite the wisdom of past Avatars.
Your tweet is absolutely spot on too, Elaine. Disney Star Wars treading on the grey area of the Jedi further complicated the lore while unnecessary. Kennedy, Abrams, etc, already had a blueprint to work with but they dropped the ball, big time!
In the end, it all breaks down to quality vs quantity.....a lesson presumably lost by Disney....
Wow that started a debate?? Watching Star Wars as a child I remember seeing them that way good and bad, right and wrong. As an adult i understand Mr Lucas better, twice he gave us the answer to this question once in a Empire strikes back and once in Revenge of the Sith.
"Luke, you’re going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."
"From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!"
Annakin was pushed by Darth Sidious to attack the Raiders.
They are the good guys. They arent perfect. but they are a hell of a lot better than the sith
the Jedi aren’t perfect,they’re human after all but their intentions are noble…
Not just human tho...
I agree with you. Consider though your statement was made in a time and 'place' where for nearly 20-30 years, at least some amount of greed and selfishness is acknowledged as a virtue in the US and, if media is to be believed, most other parts of the world. It's not surprising to me that putting a qualitative value 'good' on greed's opposite concepts of selflessness and compassion will be met with 'mixed feelings'. I distinctly recall conversations with 2 different people telling me that I was too 'good' some 20 odd years ago. That at best people will take advantage of me and at worst, everyone will hate me for it.
Wow I couldn't say it better than you. You have perfectly and articulated this subject so well. Thank you so much for doing this. People especially Disney fans have a poor misconception about the Jedi and Good vs Evil.
Watching Empire in theatres when it came out, Darth Vader was truly terrifying. When the story is new and you just don't know how bad he can be, he's worse than the xenomorph in Alien.
I would add that in addition to the Jedi having a moral code of conduct/teachings that help guide them to make good choices, it’s also the love and faith Luke has for his father that helps bring Vader back from the Dark Side. The love you have and get from your child I hope would warm even the coldest of hearts.
The other issue is more then ever entertainment is becoming a substitution for living a good balanced life. Thus the desire to make every form of entertainment into a reflection of the world itself. It’s their substitute for living in the world. 🌎
"Their" substitute? Who are "they"? Any special need to be so ambiguous and nebulous about who you're blaming for this?
Uncontroversial. Needs no elaboration.
Also, LOL social media. As Dave Chapelle said, "....I don't give a 'duck' because Twitter is not a real place."
You're the good guy in this debate. The fact that people reject good doesn't make you bad.
Yoda once again said a lot w few words, "Pride and Ego are defects far too common in Jedi of this age" not an exact quote but it reveals that the Jedi had already fallen before they fell.
what is the exact quote? I never found the exact quote or anything about pride or ego in this regard
@@RS8XB it is in Attack of the Clones (i think), he is floating in his chair walking with I believe Obiwan in the halls and they are having a converation. Obiwan comments that Anikan is getting cocky and Yoda a replies with the comment about it being too common these days. I will try to find it on RUclips and post a link later when I can.
dude you don't even know the quote let alone understand it. Lucas explained it on the commentary track, “We contrast [the previous scene where Palpatine boosts Anakin’s ego] with the three Jedi and show Obi-Wan’s concern about the fact that his apprentice is getting ahead of himself, and he’s arrogant. And Obi-Wan is kinda put down a little bit by Yoda, there, 'cause Yoda says that that arrogance exists in the older Jedi too, which is a way of warning Obi-Wan that he may be suffering the same hubris.”
@@ssl3546And the issue is that it's something that penetrates the entire Jedi Order, including Yoda.
@@ssl3546you own comment shows that you don't read or understand what you read before you speak. While you needed to defer to someone else's analysis the sum of both says THE SAME THING in principle. Grow up kid. Do better.
It's simple, Jedi are the peace makers of the galaxy. They were inspired by Samurai and the knight chivalry. Disney Star Wars is dead cause they don't know what Star Wars is.
Any attempt to impose your will, beliefs or person on another is an act of violence.
You do know the samurai were not the good guys, right? They worked for feudal landholders to control peasants with violence. The knights of Europe were even worse. Look at how many times they invaded the middle east, slaughtering Jews and Muslims alike who would not convert to Christianity.
The Samurai were beholden to a master. They followed the laws set by the Daimyo.
The Jedi are not.
They travel around to other places and insist on THEIR rules.
Sometimes different cultures have different rules.
@@Kalamain ....Listen closely because I'm about to educate you on the Jedi Code.
*There is no emotion, there is peace.*
*There is no ignorance, there is knowledge.*
*There is no passion, there is serenity.*
*There is no chaos, there is harmony.*
*There is no death, there is the Force.*
A Jedi Padawan does not become a Jedi Knight until he can demonstrate a clear understanding of the Jedi Code. The Knight Trials are a series of tests explicitly to see if the Padawan understands each tenant of the code and lives by it.
A Jedi Knight does not become a Jedi Master until they become a living embodiment of the Jedi Code.
The vast majority of the Galaxy has membership of the Galactic Republic. That means they ALL AGREE that there is a BASELINE RULE OF LAW they all agree to. If you do NOT agree or are culturally incompatible with these laws, you are not permitted membership to the Republic.
The Jedi serve as peacekeepers, mediators, and troubleshooters BY REQUEST OF THE REPUBLIC when problems arise between state members. While their intentions are first and foremost diplomatic, they understand that the galaxy is dangerous and are always prepared to defend themselves and others.
Their loyalty is to The Code First, The Jedi Order Second, and finally The Galactic Republic.
Your comment is bullshit and straight up violates both the second AND fourth tenants of the code.
They were inspired by Shoalin Monks
I agree with you 💯 percent. ✨ May the "FORCE" be with you.
Once you read, and understand, Wittgenstein you come to realize that many of the truths we cling to rely greatly on our own points of view. The Jedi are good, just like Vader betrayed and murdered Anakin. The problem of good and bad, is.... Good for what? Bad for whom? There is no objective value structure because there is no objective point of view. And anyone saying otherwise is lying to you in order to manipulate you. "Only the Sith deal in absolutes" after all. The Jedi are certainly good for some, but what about for the slaves on Tatooine? These aren't simple questions and there are no easy answers. It only appears to be black and white on a superficial level, but as soon as you go a little bit deeper, it all psychedelic baby!
I agree, the Jedi are Good. Yes they make mistakes, thats what makes them relatbable to us. We want to (mostly) be good even though its not always easy or clear, we make mistakes. As a whole the Jedi work for the good of the universe. The new trend of everything needing to be toeing the line and degrading heroes, promoting anti-heroes is now already overplayed. Take us back to the classic fight of good versus evil, it doesnt get old. Give our community "a new hope" to be better, we need it now in our society more than ever.
Jacen Solo debated this very question... an look what happened to him
Ah, to Disney 'fans' even mentioning that name is meaningless or heretical because they see the EU as invalid. The EU did a true continuation of the story, although not perfect(and nothing can be). The fact that Disney immediately did away with it tells me a lot about what they intended and makes their attempt at a timeline nothing but a bastardization.
@@Bastion83 Andor was fkng cool tho :P
@@Bastion83 to be fair, Lucas was going to ditch it as well, he was already 1 draft through his new sequel trilogy which didnt feature Jacen, Jaina, Anakin, and Ben... So it was gone either way. Disney just got to be the bad guys that did it during their transition.
@@Bastion83 Ironically, I see the same problem with saying "all Jedi are bad guys now" as "all people who enjoy some Disney programming are bad Star Wars fans". Stereotyping is stereotyping. I'm not going to throw the baby out with the bath water.
@@rikk319 I would agree with you but I've literally found nothing within Disney Star wars worth saving. Along with the fact that Disney prefers to.... Empower a variety of fan isn't big on discourse, but more rabid defense of what they claim as theirs. I saw some things within the old era of Star wars that I could take or leave. Loved the tapestry that was woven. The whole of what Disney has created to replace what they disregarded however...... I see no value or depth in it.
I am glad you addressed this in such a specific way. Always back to the source: Selfishness. These people are Sith, plain and simple...Lol.
I think most people who push back on the whole the Jedi are the good guys is because some of them want Star Wars to be more complex than what it actually is thinking that everyone needs to be a morally gray character like in game of thrones or dune when that isn’t the case at all for Star wars it’s always been about good vs evil story sure both the light side and the dark side have more depth to them as is shown in the clone wars but they are still good and evil and that is fine it’s ok to like a story about good vs evil doesn’t make your taste in stories better or worse it just means you love certain styles of fiction not everything needs to be a morally complex story that transcends all reality it just needs to be fun
I never thought in a million years, that there would be the day that people would argue against the premise: the Jedi are the good guys. W. T. F. is going on?!
So glad i am a Cookie Swordmaster! Jedi were and always will be a damn paragon of the light. It's visual, auditory, and literally their whole get up. This whole extended universe nonsense brought on by the clone wars show and Disney. Even post Return of the Jedi books about the order that Luke forms after the war, the "gray" Jedi are still Jedi. Hell, the only argument that can be made against them was in an extended universe book, that stated that Palpatine was right to try to resurrect the old sith empire because sith lords would have been more brutally efficient than Jedi in the Yuuzhan Vong war. Even this isn't necessarily true, as even sith would be stumbed at how to go about dealing with a freaking voxyn. Well... look up what it cost to defeat that menace. Do you all think a sith would act so selflessly as Solo did in his final moment? Not talking about Han, I'm talking about Anakin Solo. Look, there's a lot of people out there who are invested for very strange reasons that are divorced from the backbone of the original trilogies themes and it will only get worse as time drags on. You nailed this one right on the head with all your quotes and research. Great job!!!
What's happening especially in Star Wars now is called desensitization. Entertainment is taking stories and characters known to be good and evil and making them all morally grey. It works for some characters and stories, but not all. Star Wars has and it will forever remain a tale of good vs evil.
It is perhaps a little more complicated that simply Jedi = Good, Sith = Bad, but by and large it's correct. The failings of the (prequel era) Jedi order are perhaps as much due to becoming part of a large bureaucracy, and becoming an integral part of the power structures, rather than any overt or deliberate malice. The Republic Commando series of books by Karin Traviss explore the idea of the Jedi not automatically being the good guys, and as much as Traviss evidently earned a reputation for being overtly anti-Jedi in her "politics", I quite enjoyed the way she approached the topic in the books. They're also very good military sci-fi in their own right, if that's a genre that holds any appeal.
The diehard Star Wars fan base can be blindly cruel and close minded. If Jedi are not the good guys, if there is no Jedi magic and lightsabers nor Skywalkers, they think it is a bad production and an unfair comment. The Jedi made a series of huge mistakes, were corrupt and lacked many of the values they preached as important. Yoda himself recognized that, even being guilty of it himself. The Star Wars universe is huge and there are many stories, not involving Jedi/Sith, to be told. That is why I welcome series like Andor. Try not to take personally the comments from trolls. Keep up the good job you usually do. Thanks for the video!
There's a lot of non-canon story elements that question Jedi morality like in the clone wars novelization there are some quotes from Dooku about this.
But, if we want to stick strictly with canon stuff it is a bit questionable that Anakin hesitates to execute Dooku in 3, saying he needs to be tried, but then Mace Windu goes full judge jury executioner against Palps. There's probably a couple more examples hiding somewhere in the Disney canon stuff, but I have to admit that GL was particularly consistent making it a classic good vs evil situation (likely to appeal more to kids.)
I agree entirely. The Jedi are, and always WERE, the good guys. The "modern audience" who wants there to be "moral ambiguity" (out of sheer cynicism and spite, if nothing else) here are just attacking you on X for clout. You were and still are correct.
I was at first surprised you gave a darn about what the Internet People think, but then it did spark an interesting video. Agreed they are the "good guys" in this sense, and that sometimes the good guys mess up from time to time. Personally I think Yoda and Obi-Wan wanted Luke to assassinate Vader, but that was their failing, and Luke embodied the Light Side better than anyone ever did. Luke was the "Galahad" of Star Wars, as it were.
Most people have been conditioned to agree with the bad guy more than the good guy. This came about in the Dark Knight Trilogy. Where afterwards we have been getting Villains that seem to have good arguments against the hero. Suddenly the hero was seen as meek, weak, and naive. While the villain was seen as the beholder of truth and knowledge. With that in mind, you have individuals questioning the good side more so the bad. Putting the finger at the morally just and courageous. At time siding with the morally corrupt and decadent. Later people began to view the villain as the hero of the story. Or taking that saying too literal.
That being said, people are trying to find ways to denigrate the morally good. Be it real life and fiction. Seeking to find the slightest flaws within to blow them to exaggerated proportions in order to justify diminishing their importance. To prove there is not good in the world. And the correct path is to obtain power. Nobody wants to be a good guy anymore.
They also have this scewed view on being good means you're trying to be perfect. As you pointed out in the video Elaine, they are not good because they are perfect. They are good cause they are flawed and trying their best to not slip into the dark. They are disciplined. And that is what is lacking in today's society, discipline. But I'll leave it there.
It’s sad that some people are unable to comprehend the Jedis are the good guys. Yeah they have flaws, but they wouldn’t be interesting if they were perfect. Despite their flaws, they’re still the good guys. The Sith are the bad guys. It’s a tale of good and evil and at the end of Return of the Jedi, the good guys win.
In one perspective: good and bad are 2 sides of the same coin. We label things good and bad because this world functions as a duality. You can't have one without the other.
Great job, it's very simple. Thank you.
It's largely because CERTAIN DEMOGRAPHICS have become so hyperfocused on their own identities that that IS theor story. But identity isn't a story, it's a characteristic. So we end up with non-stories without moral or development past maybe better embracing oneself.
When there’s no such thing as objective reality these days, only opinions that must be given equal weight, is it any surprise that some people think there’s no good or evil either?
An interesting video by all means. It ought be perfectly clear that the Jedi are Good. Sadly large segments of our society are really confused about such things now. Your response here is well thought out and executed superbly. Great job as always.
Thank you!
Great to hear some clear-headed back to basics reminders
People that believe the Jedi are not good or are even the villains are people who are morally bankrupt themselves. I gave up watching Star Wars a long time ago, once Disney bastardized the IP. But I've heard comments that the Acolyte may show the Jedi as child stealing bad guys. This is one of the reasons they have lost so many fans.
Well said Ms Nerd Cookies. _Very_ well said.
The Jedi used an army of clones that were essentially human slaves bred to obey with little, if any regard for their lives... did a single Jedi ever ask if this was ethical? If people see that as clearly the behavior of "good guys" then I guess we'll just have to disagree...