I'd argue his gamble was ultimately a success. He just didn't live to see it play out. I'd say the emperor and baron's trap was a tactical success, but clearly a strategic failure. They unknowingly delivered the most powerful planet in the universe to the most powerful being in the universe.
In his defense, the Duke didn't belive the Baron would be stupid enough to fall into the Emperor's trap. Turning House Harkonnen into an Imperial puppet
I believe Leto knew he was already dead before he left for Dune, he just didn't know "how" he was already dead. He was doing everything within his abilities to give Paul a chance at survival and to force him to "Grow up" as soon as possible. He loved his family and knew his time was very short. That was my impression when I read the book.
I think one phrase Duke Leto spoke to Paul during heartfelt conversation gives most vital clue that Duke knows he's going die. He told Paul, " The Sleeper must Awaken" i.e. It was time for Paul Atredies to grow up.
I always wondered what Leto would have thought of his son's rule by the end of the second book. Leto was always portrayed as a noble and just ruler, so I wonder how he would have felt about his son heading a regime hell bent on jihading the galaxy and brutally subgugating worlds. The first time you read dune I feel like its super easy to get swept up in the archtypical hero's journey, and only later realize you're watching the origin story of Genghis Khan.
I think if Leto had lived and his plans worked, that he had the ethics and force of character to prevent the jihad and still accomplish amazing things. I think Leto's story sets the stage for the internal struggles Paul and Leto 2 with the morality of what they do or allow done.
Well Paul tried to stop the Jihad but couldn't bring himself to die by Jamis' hand and couldn't restrain the Jihad once it started. The rest was essentially a series of dominoes going off thanks to the Missionara Protectiva. It's really the BG's fault if you want to lay blame somewhere. The Atreides at that point had a tiger by the tail.
He knew what he was walking into, he knew the stakes and he accepted that he may not survive. But he trusted his son and the house he built to finish what he started. He's more courageous than he is given credit for. Walking towards your doom chin up with the confidence that you have built something that will continue on and succeed after your death proves his nobility, wisdom, and courage.
The Dukes problem was one of the most "classic" and biggest ones in any form of military campaign or preparation, "time, time, time, ask me for anything but time".
The mystery of life isn't a problem to solve, but a reality to experience. A process that cannot be understood by stopping it. We must move with the flow of the process. We must join it. We must flow with it.
These are some of the best lines from the film, because they're NOT in the novel, yet they're so much like Herbert's own philosophical writing that they easily could've been...
Literally the only reason the Baron and the Emperor's plan worked was Yueh. Even Thufir, the most feared tactician in the Imperium, couldn't calculate the treason of a Suk doctor. The Atreides took what they thought was a measured risk. "A million deaths are not enough for Yueh!"
As always, great presentation. I have always been impressed by the way Herbert made the situation complex enough that you could understand why Leto took the risks he did. It was not just a dumb mistake. The duke understood(mostly) the danger and had (almost) protected his house from that danger. Plans within plans....
Duke Leto was well-meaning and noble but human and fallible. He was ambitious. To gain trust he gave it, even to Yueh. Not given to hatred himself, he maybe underestimated how much the Baron would pay for the sake of hatred. It seems he didn't know that the Guild and the Bene Gessirit were so wary of Paul they would condone and even abet the Emperor's plans to destroy House Atreides.
Well how popular, charismatic as skilled Duke Leto was it made him treat to emperor not to forget he had A team of loyal retainers and army of well trained and armed men how where closing saducar level of kick ass. When you ad all that on how often Duke did daring battles I be too troubled of Atreidies even they might not directly go challenge his throne but Letos popularity might make other houses replace imperial house.
That last point may be the most critical factor in Leto's fall. The Duke of course had no idea about Paul's importance to the Spacing Guild and the Bene Gesserit. Normally, the Guild would've preferred treating with the Atreides as they would be better partners to gain the spice, but because of their fear of Paul, they probably turned a dea ear to any Atreides entreaties, and maybe even didn't charge the Harkonnen as much as they could have to transport their troops. Likewise, the Bene Gesserit wanted a union of Atreides and Harkonnen for their breeding program. With Paul's existence, they supported the Emperor's plot against the Atreides, maybe even pushed for it, which may have robbed Leto the time he needed for his plan to work. Unfortunately, the seemingly pragmatic Leto had no inkling of these mnear-mystical plots, so could not plan or anticipate their involvement. The game was rigged against him even before the start: at Paul's conception.
Yeah, the breaking the Dr's conditioning was the main reason that it played out like it did. I believe it's even hunted about in the books as such a double edged sword that if anyone had found out or even suspected that they broke his conditioning it would have been a death sentence for the Baron and probably anyone close to him.
Can you explain why that would be a death sentence to Baron? Is it some kind of sacre covenant that you just don't do? And all the other houses would turn on the Baron?
@@MC-tm2uy Exactly. The unwavering loyalty and conditioning of the Suk doctors was essential to the peace of mind of all of the Houses. The knowledge that a Suk could be compromised might have destroyed that order, and it would have thrown all of the Houses into a state of paranoia.
@@MC-tm2uy because no one believes it is possible. it benefits the Baron to have such an ace up his sleeve. He can break other doctors and use them to gain an upper hand over other houses, even the emperor. If the houses and emperor found out he was capable of such a thing they would likely kill him out of fear of him using it against them.
Great video. This one really jumped out to me as I always thought the Atriedes were shown to be too easily defeated in the novels. Especially after building up the prowess of the Atriedes legions, Duncan, Thufir, and Gurney, etc. You did a really great job of giving perspective on why they were so easily defeated despite this. Duke Leto is such a great character and this video really makes me remember his line from the new film when he says something along the lines of "I thought we'd have more time".
Caladan was a planet like Earth, so there would have been experienced sailors, underwater troops, jungle fighters, etc. The problem is that most of those skills would have to be re-trained after winding up on a desert planet. The Harkonnen attack was early enough that the troops had not had a chance to change their mindset enough for a desert planet. The attack occurred very swiftly after the Atreides arrived, if you use the 1984 movie. Jessica got pregnant with Alia before the Atreides left, and even Jessica could barely tell the signs of her pregnancy, with the book mentioning that she had been carrying Leto's daughter for a few weeks. Figure less than a month between Atreides arrival and Harkonnen attack.
This is why I was disappointed that the movie only mentioned 3 Battalions of Sardaukar was camouflaged as House Harkonnen troops. I know that Villeneuve was portraying the Sardaukar as the top dog of the military order in the Imperium but the novel portrays the overwhelming lengths the Harkonnens and the Emperor were willing to expend to ensure the complete destruction of House Atreides.
@@senpainoticeme9675 Not only that but didn't the Emperor stand the cost of loaning five legions of Sardaukar to the Baron? It was HIS plan after all. All the Harkonnens had to do was provide uniform disguises for the Sardaukar.
@@waynegoldpig2220 it was 1 full legion of Sardaukar disguised as Harkonnens in the initial plan to destroy House Atreides. He brought 5 legions after a mysterious leader brought spice production into a complete halt. The Harkonnens brought 9 of their own legions which funnily enough is more like a support to the Sardaukar in the initial destruction of House Atreides. Thus the Baron paid for the transportation of 10 full legions of military which almost bankrupted him with the concurrent destruction of most of his spice hoard in Giedi Prime.
Duke Leto was the true hero in this series. Who knows how his plans would have ultimately played out in the Universe but he is not just a talented, driven and charismatic leader, but a man who believes whole hearted in the Atriedies creed. An honorable and fearsome leader who exemplifies everything a ruler should in theory be. But dies in the Harkonnen trap proving that all these qualities may not bring victory alone and fate can be cruel indeed.
If Leto had a plan like this working in his mind, that would speak volumes to his strength of character, his will, and his sense of morality. To have the foresight to look at what he's been given, realize that his time was running out, and choose to give his son the best chance he possibly could at not merely survival but also victory... To me it's a wondrous thing that he was willing to sacrifice himself so thoroughly to support the possibility of a future he would never see.
I think one of the main reasons the Duke's plan worked in the end was everyone underestimating Paul. The Bene Gesserit supreme mother knew he was being trained by Jessica, and might have supplied that information to the emperor and Harkonens, but likely didn't. Add to that he was being trained as a mentat, which was probably not known outside of the Duke and a handful of teachers, and Paul is being trained to be one of the most dangerous beings in existence. Meanwhile outside of the Duke's inner circle, Paul is just seen as a 15-year-old kid with limited ability and knowledge, and isn't taken seriously. I would say Yueh likely knew all this, but had no real loyalty to the Emperor or the Baron, so kept it to himself in order to provide Paul with the best chance of survival.
I can't help but think after hearing this analysis that the emperor's ultimate plan was to destroy House Atreides and weaken House Harkonnen. On the surface, it worked. House Atreides was extinct (so the emperor thought) and House Harkonnen was saddled with decades of debt which would diminish its power. One rival house was destroyed, and another was diminished.
Question for Nerd Cookies: What was the Bene Gesserit’s plan once they had their originally envisioned kwisatz haderach? The one that was supposed to be both Harkonnen (by Feyd presumably) & an unnamed Atreides female? I’ve never been quite clear on what the Bene Gesserit do then.
To guide humanity's future development with the aid of prescient foresight & male lineage access to previous lives. They used their skills over centuries to produce a Kwisatch Haderach, imagine what they could accomplish with Paul's powers if they had been able to tame him for their own ends. Sheer hubris on the Bene Gesserit part in one way but unknowingly secured the future of humanity in a completely unforseen by them way. At a cost of billions of lives lost along the way though.
@@adrianmcmahon5731 but does that include overthrowing the Corrino’s and essentially taking over the imperium? Like, ok, they have a Kwisatz Haderach. How do they plan to use him? That’s the part I never quite got
I think the way the movie was cut and it's runtime, gave me the impression that Leto was a fool Bc for me who knew nothing of Dune, this movie had a lightning fast pace And it felt like they were attacked the moment they stepped on the planet One or two scenes extra scenes would've done a lot For example, one scene that showed a few days or a week passing on Arraxis like that dinner scene I've read about And i did not get the feeling that the Doctor that betrayed them was trusted as much as he apparently was. He did not get much screen time and in one of his few scenes the doctor speaks in a language Jessica doesn't understand so that she doesn't hear that he doesn't trust those creepy nuns and Jessica uses sign language so the doctor can't hear what she's saying to Paul ... One more scene of the doctor would've cleared that up, like having him in conversation with Leto's inner circle that shows the doctor is a trusted Johnny tight lips( which is apparently what those doctors are supposed to be in Dune ?) Loved the movie as a whole tho Just really needed it to include some more scenes to clear up some things that felt odd, including to prove that Leto had reason to make this gamble
Agreed, the book is difficult to express in a movie, I feel like they sacrificed a lot due to the medium's limitations. My hope is it gave enough to encourage people to read the book
Its hard to disagree. This remake, was simply put, badly written and edited. Even as someone who has read Dune and fully understands what is(supposed) to be going on in this film, It is poorly structured, written, edited and paced. Few, if any of the supporting characters motivations, story, or goals comes through, and the 'main' characters hardly fare any better. Yes it looks good, in a spartan kind of way, but the movie gives the impression that Duke Leto, and everyone under him, are completely ignorant and unprepared for ANY of the events leading up to the attack. its hard to understand what makes the 'Duke', or his advisors, so intelligent and capable, much less the 'best' in the imperium based on what is presented. They all look dazed and confused by what is going on around them. I can imagine, a lot of viewers might have felt that way too....
Excellent summation of the backstory. You hit on all the key points I can remember. One of the things I liked about the first part of the book was how you almost think the Atreides could pull their plan off, but the attack comes too soon and is too big for them to contend with. Also, I remember a line about how the Harkonnen knew the distribution of the Atreides forces and so knew where and how hard to attack them. Yueh's betrayal was another complicated bit of business that took me a while to figure out. Yes the Baron broke his Suk conditioning, but only insofar as to get Yueh to resolve to kill the Baron - handing over Leto was just the bait to Yueh's trap (the Duke being a dead man walking in Yueh's mind). It's such an impressive bit of writing.
I would enjoy seeing this play out in an alternate timeline fashion. It would have been interesting to see how the Bene Gesserit would proceed with dealing with Paul. I assume Paul's Kwisatz Haderach transformation would have taken longer giving the Bene G more time to manipulate Paul to their objectives. Great video thanks.
@@austinharris9077 Currently reading Children of Dune, and yes Leto II does become. So far of what I read he has started on his Golden Path by merging himself with the sandtrout and confront his father. He stated his intentions well aware of the consequences as Paul tells him he well create hell in the universe.
My take is he simply underestimated the trap. He didn't expect the emperor to be as directly involved as he was. He expected house harkonnen to have been given free reign by the emperor, but not that the emperor would directly support them in their inevitable attack.
Plus that the Harkonnens were willing to spend several decades' worth of spice profits to transport the invasion force. The estimated attack size was 4-5 battalions. Instead there was one legion of Sardaukar (10 brigades, each of which had multiple battalions), out of a total force of 10 legions. If you use the 10:1 ratio from Brigade to Battalion, that means 1 Legion = 10 Brigades = 100 Battalions. So instead of expecting an attack size of 5 battalions at most, the Harkonnen attack was ~1000 battalions. So about 200* bigger than expected, plus arriving earlier than Duke Atreides expected.
@@toddkes5890 Also they cunningly deployed ancient technology (conventional artillery) that was completely obsolete because of prolific shield usage. But since Arrakis didn't take kindly to shield usage, they were very successful using these museum pieces.
I enjoy listening to your video assessments. Your voice is pleasing, and its clear you've done your homework. Moreover, your discussions are rational and you certainly inform me, who hasn't read the book series, about elements which aren't brought forth in the movies or are passed over briefly. For instance in the new film, Duke Leto says to his concubine "I thought we'd have more time." Presented with little context, it wasn't clear to me what he meant; I thought at first that he was referring to his relationship with Lady Jessica, especially when he said soon after that "I should have married you." But I was left wondering if that was in fact what he meant; and after viewing your videos, I realize now that he was referring primarily to his larger plan for dealing with the situation his house was in after the Emperor assigned him to take over governance of Arrakis. I like your videos and appreciate the way I feel more informed and feel I can grasp more clearly the events of the story. Thank you!
Really good points here! I'd add one more: Leto underestimated just how blatantly the Emperor would support the attack (absurd funding, actual on-the-ground Sardaukar, etc). Leto correctly assumed that the other Great Houses would be extremely displeased by the assertion of Imperial authority over their domains. He just overestimated how much they would actually do about it, and that the emperor would be willing to risk it.
Firstly big fan of the book, the ultimate reference! Thufir was in Arakeen when the attack occurred, and said 50 years of spice profit which amazed him so 1) the greatest tactical mind underestimated the Harkonen price they were willing to pay to get even with house Atreidies and 2) the wealth they had accumulated to spend that much. A spy in their midst was known just not that it was Yeuh which caused a lot of internal diversion. The book does not say it exactly but the Atreidies were on Arakis at least 4 to 8 months as Leto was nicknamed "the just" by the Fremen, so he had an impact on the lives of the Arakis people.
there was a moment in the film where the Duke asked Jessica if she would always protect their son as both a mother and as a Bene Gesserit. He wanted to make sure Paul would survive.
In theory, yes. Whether it's Juana(Yueh's wife), Lady Fenring, or Jessica, you see the BG willing to place it's agents in very dangerous situations. If you think of them as spies, covert agents, it makes sense that the sisterhood would be a fearsome enemy but individual women, sent out on dangerous missions, usually alone, would be at grave personal risk. The interesting question to me is "since the BG would know that Yueh's wife had disappeared, why would they not inform Jessica?" Probably, Juana had been thought dead by everybody and the Harkonnens were secretly interfering with Yueh without anyone's knowledge. No one but Yueh would even consider that she's possibly still alive. And even he knew better.
I think the books make quite clear that the Bene Gesserit are complete religious fanatics, and any individual member of their cult was seen as an expendable asset. Not even the Reverend Mother Mohiam (who's also the Imperial Truthsayer) was above this - when she's sent to Caladan by herself to test Paul she fully intends to kill him if he fails the test, so there'd be no possible way for her to escape retribution if she were to have done so. The potential demise of even such a highly placed and senior member of the Bene Gesserit hierarchy was seen as acceptable to further the goals of their breeding program. If they were willing to do that, I have difficulty imagining them caring one whit if Yueh's wife was tortured/killed.
Unless the death of a sister was to serve a greater purpose. Jessica had already thwarted the sisterhood plans by having Paul so in order to put things back on track Juana was used as a sacrifice. Remember Jessica daughter was supposed to be a bridge between Harkkonen and Atreidies but Paul's birth ensured the breech was left open.
Torturing one of their own what? You mean, the Bene Gesserit would have been upset at Wanna being tortured by the Harkonnens? As with any secret society that sends out agents to perform missions or go undercover, it's a given that it's risky. Wanna Marcus was important only to Yueh, and while the B.G. would not have been pleased at her capture and murder, she was ultimately worth less to them in the grand scheme.
Ive never read the books, never watched the old movie or the shows. I just watched this movie last week and it was incredible. I got the sense that the Duke knew what was going to happen and you could see him trying to hurriedly teach his son valuable lessons because he sensed he was going to die sooner or later after arriving on Arrakis. Turns out it was almost immediate.
Bravo for another great review of Dune - I never gave Leto a second thought other than he really didn't do a good job with his sentries. Your hypothesis that Leto was attempting a path for Paul as a plot-within-plot is much more plausible. Thank you for this new perspective.
Dune is my all time favorite book, I've read it probably close to 60 times. Read it so often I had to spring for a nice hardcover edition because I kept reducing the paperbacks to tatters. In the book, Duke Leto laid his plan out to Paul pretty succinctly: Make friends with the Fremen enough that they'd help the Atreides out when it came time to face the Emperors Sardaukar. The Dukes belief was that due to Arrakis' harsh conditions toughening them up and their own naturally violent lifestyle, coupled with the fact that there were FAR more of them than the Emperor or Harkonnens realized, that the Fremen would make for very capable allies when the time came. And the Duke wasn't actually wrong about that. The reason that it didn't work is because it didn't really have a chance too. The Atreides underestimated just how much expense their enemies were willing to spring for in order to destroy them. Arrakis' breathtakingly high GDP for somewhere in the span of 50 to 60 years would have just barely covered the troop transport costs alone. Even despite that though, the Fremens aid likely would have made the difference if the Atreides-Fremen relationship had been allowed more time to develop before the attack came. As it was, the attack that killed Duke Leto came as inroads with the Fremen were just at their infancy and weren't nearly developed enough for the Fremen to commit to actively playing a role in planetary defense.
As a fan of both book and film I feel almost like I'm betraying Leto when I say I think he was somewhat naive when it came to the planet Dune. Personally I don't consider the prequels cannon whatsoever so I can't comment what's been written about his youth but this man must have been brought up with political intrigue as a day to day occurrence. I can understand not suspecting a Suk doctor of betrayal as at that point it was unheard of but he points out several times that the Harkonnen would not just walk away. For me his time frame of action was ill conceived. A better strategist knowing how much the Baron had lost would have been prepared for a huge attack right from the very beginning. At the end I just feel that suspecting the Baron and the Emperor were in bed together, he greatly underestimated their intent and reach. As always, a brilliant video. Your narration and execution are fantastic. Well done.
For the book I agree, he was naive, but in the movie it felt like he knew he was going to die from the very beginning, like his goal was just to try his best to make sure his son can survive. Where in the book it seemed like he thought he would have time to recruit the fremen and use them to fight back. I remember that he suspected the fremen could rival the saudukar, but I dont remember if he thought they would attack along side the harkonen.
Excellent books. I read the news book by Frank Hebert's son 'House Harkonnen' it was really well written, really captured the story. Looking forward to reading the others. Great video, I enjoyed the synapses.
When I was a teenager, I remember reading the book while the mid day heat raged in India in the dry season... I remember looking up after been engrossed in the book, seeing sari wrapped figures bent against the wind blown dust as a dust devil wandered down the street
I read it while on vacation in vegas. Looked out the balcony to see planes landing like carryalls in a city surrounded by desert… this book is enchanting.
In addressing the question Nerd Cookies poses, the first point that must be clarified is whether House Atreides had any •choice• to accept the Emperor’s order to assume the stewardship, and serve as fief ruler, of Arrakis. But this video initially overlooks that fundamental issue, and almost discusses Duke Leto’s decisions as if he could have declined the offer to take over Arrakis. It’s only at 7:37 that NC states - and just in passing, really - that Leto could have rejected the Emperor’s directive only at the cost of placing House Atreides outside the imperial order, and accepting the status of rebel against the Emperor.
The first third of the book is probably my favorite. When they land it's so crazy, they stay up for days on fatigue pills, the endless meetings, the constant paranoia, the secret missions with Thufir Hawat, Lady Jessica's spying and investigating! All great stuff, you get to see first hand what a competent leader Duke Leto was and just how powerful the people in his house were.
Yueh was some how smart enough to achieve his status, but also stupid enough to think the baron would honor his deal, or any deal. I've always had an issue story wise with that, not a person in the galaxy would trust that man, but for some reason he did. Did he honestly believe his wife was even still alive? Yes, he was conditioned and manipulated but he didn't anticipate that they would try that? Going to Leto, Jessica, and Thufir for help was the only real option he had from the start, Jessica probably could have confirmed her life or death in a moment, but somehow it didn't occur to him. And how did they get to his wife in the first place? Presumably they lived IN the Atreides home on Caladan. That's always bothered me for some reason.
I don't get why anyone could think he was tricked or underestimated the danger. He knew full well that arakkis was a trap and says exactly that in a discussion with paul. But it was a trap that they had no choice but to step into and had been working to shore up his position from the day they landed.
It is a treasury that we can even talk about such things as the subtler character motivations in a canonical work. Most modern shows and books utterly lack the coherence for such an analysis.
I wonder if the Emperor would have been less likely to support the Harkonnen's in their assault if the Atreides hadn't been training their House Troops to be as proficient in combat as the Sardaukar.
possibly. the emperor was driven by fear and jealousy. in the novel the emperors daughter says that she knew her father admired Duke Leto and wished he had a son like him. But, he feared how popular he was amongst the houses, and how good of a military he had, and the best thing to do was get rid of him.
I'd say the Duke's biggest mistake (and the mistake of Thufir as well) was in underestimating the threat that the Emperor felt from Leto. Possibly underestimating the Baron's hatred for the Atredies as well, but if they had accurately estimated how threatened the Emperor felt, they might have thought to up the amount of resources they attributed to the Baron AND how quickly they needed to move to defend against an outside attack. Other than that, yeah - the Duke had a great plan that was thwarted really only by Yueh. If Yueh hadn't been a traitor (one of the aspects of the movie that I did not care for was how little it went into that particular storyline), then the initial attack may have been defended against, even with the 10 Legions instead of 5 against them. Everything else Leto did was brilliant and might have worked.
IMO Duke Leto had a long term plan. He wanted to win the hearts of the Fremen and fortify his position of power. Leto did not anticipate that the Baron and the Emperor would attacked so quickly. His long term planning could not protect his family from a surprise attack.
@@stefanfilipovits21 Leto did not marry Jessica because his goal was to marry the emperor's daughter. I think that Leto would have used his desert power to become emperor.
@@stefanfilipovits21 Its both. He had already reached a position where he would inevitably have to fight the emperor to survive. And to fight the emperor is to implicitly make a play for the throne.
No one can foresee everything. The Duke's plan was a good and reasonable one. Without the Good Doctor's treachery, it would have worked. The story would have been a far different one....perhaps one less epic. Great video.
It would still have succeed, but it would have been harder to succeed and more obvious. The problem is that Duke Leto only expected 5 battalions, and after the first audit. Instead 10 Legions were sent, plus the attack arrived within a matter of weeks (Alia in Jessica's womb was described as only a few weeks along when she and Paul were in the Stilltent).
Ultimately like you said the betrayal happened too quickly. But I don’t think for a second that the Duke thought he was going to survive that planet. He talks about how this place will never be home, but how he can hopefully make it home for Paul. It seems like everything he was doing was to ensure that his son had the best shot shot at having a home there. I feel like he knew he was dead. I just think he thought he had more time. Even Paul notes that his father is essentially picturing his own death after that meeting. Paul was super disturbed at seeing how desperate Leto was and knew it was bad bad. But no one and I mean no one could have foreseen that Yueh could have been the one who betrayed them. The emperor didn’t know, nor the BG, or anyone. It was supposed to be impossible and I feel the baron would have been executed immediately if anyone found out it was Yueh and that the conditioning was broken. I wish the movie would have included more about Yueh because I found his inner thoughts some of the saddest and his death was badass. I loved his note to Paul and Jessica saying “I don’t want or need your forgiveness. I have enough burdens to bear.” And it spoke volumes to me. They did Yueh dirty in the movie but I do get that unless you’re a book reader you wouldn’t care or see how it’s a big deal and it would have dragged out the movie. But I also hate in the movie that they make it look like the duke thinks Paul and Jessica are dead. Such a complex book because honestly I should hate Yueh but I can’t bring myself to hate him. I absolutely hate the baron and that psycho Piter. But not Yueh. There are no good guys in these novels. The only character I truly loved was Irulan (not going into why on this comment) but poor Leto. But it seems he knew he would die. Just not within days (or weeks. Timeline is unclear but it wasn’t long and it was so so fast.)
I always felt that allowing his Suk doctor's wife to become unaccounted for was a major misstep. I'd say that was the one thing that might have earned him a victory he'd live to see.
Leaving behind saboteurs was a good move by the Harkonnens. It kept the Atreides looking outwards for the enemy and suppressed the inward suspicion that might have saved them.
What im confused about is yueh's wife. She's a bene geserete and the order is loyal to their own, so why did they not know she was misssing, and if they did why did they do nothing about it
The whole point in kidnapping someone (in this case to use as a hostage) is so that very few people know you've done it. The Sisterhood is a pretty impressive organization, but there's nothing that definitely states that they're all-knowing and that they can always keep track of every single member.
Plans within plans. To go after the Barron after Wanna's disappearance would expose the BG and their breeding program for the Kwisatz haderach. The BG operate in secret yet are a school for girls. They all play a part of a plan within a plan.
As far as I remember there was no FTL communication in Dune - so many tropes we depend on, do not work. Apparently, Harkonnen and Imperial House had hidden ambush in plain sight, planning GENERATIONS (Bene Gesserit anyone?) ahead, so size and disposition of their forces were apparent...and not at all unusual. Duke missed simple thing - timing. He assumed that trap was primed, but will not go in motion for some time and apparent trouble (mining equipment) was prime factor, not feint. He might have expected that due to performance, reputation of House Atreides will be targeted first, for not delivering - taking their support away before taking on directly on them. He assumed that political and reputation-wise destruction will come before physical one.
for one thing, to say no to the stewarship risked longer Harkonnen rule and more profits for them! He guessed rightly the Baron had secretly made an illegal stockpile of spice. And wisely ordered a quick raid on Gedi Prime not long after setting on Arrakis
I think it's also important to bring attention to the deceit and doubt the Baron sowed amongst the Atreides' ranks. Thufir was kept distracted by his suspicions of Lady Jessica, which also diverted Duncan Idaho from his place amongst the Fremen to spy on her. If Thufir and Jessica were able to work together, she might have revealed her suspicions of Yueh to the mentat, giving him more data to compute. Likewise, Duncan wo7ld have had more opportunity to convince Stilgar to join with Leto. That one seed of doubt might have been the Baron's most powerful weapon in his success.
8:00 He did this not realizing this would make Paul’s life infinitely harder, as Paul would be forced between leaving the burden of the Golden Path to Leto II, and require his death at the hands of his sister, or to spare Leto II, giving up his very humanity, Chani and his children, watching them all die from assassination, or of old age. The particular fascination we have with Paul is his morality and sense of right and wrong, faced with the reality of the fact he’s condemned ALL OF HUMANITY to stagnation and extinction. And to know he’s had to condemn his son to becoming an inhuman monster, the greatest butcher in the history of humanity, in return for saving humanity’s future. The finest science fiction series of all time. And yes, I’ve read Mote in God’s Eye, Foundation series, and all of Clarke, Heinlein and Asimov. 😛
Paul & his son Leto’s dilemma is summed up in Harvey Dent's immortal words from Nolan's TDK: _"You Either Die A Hero, Or You Live Long Enough To See Yourself Become The Villain."_
Leto knew it was a trap but refuse would have been disastrous. He had no choice. With that in mind he tried to forge alliances as quickly as possible. Most rulers in his place wouldn’t believe that their rivals would spend 60+ years, 3 generations of wealth, to attack their foes. His underestimating Harrkonens hatred of his house and trusting Huey lead to his utter demise. He was fortunate that Jessica and Paul were well trained otherwise his entire house would have fallen that night.
The Baron didn't care that they'd spent that money because his long term plan was to marry his nephew to the emperor's daughter and take the throne for House Harrkonen. His plan was sheer elegance in its simplicity, first get the Emperor to secretly add his Sarkuda forces to the Harrkonen attack against a popular and beloved Duke with widespread support using the Emperor's vanity and fear of being usurped to force his hand. Then he'd take Dune back and he'd have a stranglehold on Spice because he had a huge stockpile while they rebuilt the harvesting operation. Then when the Spice was flowing again he'd blackmail the Emperor with the secret truth behind the invasion which would turn many houses against the Throne(the Emperor should have stayed neutral in such a conflict). Eventually the blackmail would involve marrying a daughter into the Harrkonen family and then the Baron would try an assassinate the Emperor or even oust him some other way and with control of the throne that sixty years of spice would be peanuts compared to the future command of the empire by house Harrkonen. As I said before his plan was sheer elegance in its simplicity.
Duke Leto unfortunately had no chance. He had no idea about Paul's importance to the Spacing Guild and the Bene Gesserit. Normally, the Guild should've preferred treating with the Atreides as they would be better partners for spice access, but because of their fear of Paul, they probably turned a deaf ear to any Atreides entreaties, and maybe even didn't charge the Harkonnen as much as they could've to transport their troops. Likewise, the Bene Gesserit wanted a union of Atreides and Harkonnen for their breeding program. With Paul's existence, they supported the Emperor's plot against the Atreides, maybe even pushed for it, which may have robbed Leto the time he needed for his plan to work. Unfortunately, the seemingly pragmatic Leto had no inkling of these near-mystical plots, so could not plan or anticipate their involvement. The game was rigged against him even before the start: at Paul's conception.
He should've let the Baron keep Arakis. In time the Harkonens would have attacked the emperor for total control of the galaxy. The emperor might then have asked the house of Atriedes for help in order to save himself. And at that point, Leto could've set whatever price he wanted out of the deal.., INCLUDING spice production rights.
There's absolutely no evidence in the novel that supports this. And no hint that Baron Harkonnen ever even remotely considered taking on the Emperor and his Sardaukar in a direct military confrontation.
His plan was originally to use the wealth of Arrakis to buy friends and allies and build up his forces, based on his (and Hawat's) estimate of the number of Sardaukar the Emperor would assign to the mission based on the Guild's troop transport charges. He probably had some thought of winning the planet's populace to his side as a recruiting base for the expansion of his forces. I am not sure even he and Hawat suspected just how large and prepared that populace would be. I think a flaw in his plan once Idaho briefed him on the numbers of Fremen and their hatred for the Harkonnens and the Empire would have been trying to form the Fremen into conventional military units, rather than accepting that they would fight as warriors of a tribe along side, not as part, of the Atreides army. Had he been given the time he thought he had, he would have been prepared to defeat the invasion that he and Hawat expected. Neither he nor Hawat knew that the Emperor was committing as much as ten times the Sardaukar as he expected. Then there was the Traitor. Thus the likely outcome might have been the same. Two things would have to change. First, Yueh had to be neutralized. Jessica should have pressed him harder. Second, the fighting power of the Fremen allows the Atreides to retreat into the desert, rather than the caves in the shield wall, where they ended up being buried alive. Leto, in alliance with the Fremen, could deny the Harkonnens control of the spice and once the Sardaukar left, he could take control of the planet. The Emperor would have the choice of invading the planet at enormous cost or finding a diplomatic option. In this, Leto had a possible off ramp. Either he could marry Irulen or Paul could marry Irulen, guaranteeing the rule of the Emperor until his death and then the rise of an Atreides dynasty. There had been one before in the Empires history, and current House Corrino had a significant amount of Atreides "blood", the two Houses marrying over the years. The problem would have been the Bene Gesserit and the Guild. They had helped Shadam gain the Throne and they controlled him, as much as he could be controlled. The Sisters had insured that he would never have a son to carry his lineage forward. Sending Irulen to Arrakis to marry Paul would have been the best alternative while also spitting into the eyes of the Sisters and the Guild. In fact, I could see an alternative story in which Shadam carries through a plot to send Irulen (like in the mini-series) to the Duke to "allay his fears", then give the Sardaukar secret orders to join the Atreides and exterminate the Harkonnens. The Duke, with the control of the spice and supported by the Sardaukar, would become Regent (I expect Shadam expected to be assassinated when he encompassed his plot), while Paul would become Irulen's Consort as she becomes Empress and rules from Arrakis. In either case, the Atreides alliance with the Fremen would have probably required the Duke to send Paul to live with them for a few years, both to become grounded in their social customs and to further earn their confidence (he would already have fought beside them). With the Fremen, he would have become a worm rider and in the stietch, picked up Chani as concubine/lover while being more and more exposed to the raw spice in the air he breathed and his food and water, which would have forced the continuing development of his prescience. There is a future path here were he might still drink the "Water of Life" and become the Kwitsatz Hadderach. But he now as Consort, controlled the Sardaukar in Irulen's name, and with the reduction of the threat with the conquest of the planet by the Atreides, the Jihad might have been avoided or better controlled, while Paul would also be able to bend the Guild and perhaps the Sisterhood to his will. BTW, despite some disagreement over some departures from the book and its low budget CGI and Eastern European actors, the mini-series was closest to the books. I think Chalmette is a better Paul simply because he more matches the book's description as late to get his growth and being 15 at the start of the story. I am also one of those that doesn't think that the Fremen were "Arabs in Space". Remember that they moved across many planets after they were moved off Earth, at one point becoming ZENSunni wanderers, which implies a mixture of Buddhist or Shinto worshippers. There are blue eyed, blond Muslims from the Caucasus for instance, which is where the Mamelucks of Egypt drew their slave-soldiers or the Balkan European Christian children that were converted into the Janissaries. Both the Mongols and Manchus, along with the Scythians, Parthians, Sarmatians and Huns all lived in or alongside deserts. There's the Bushmen of the Kalahari and the Apaches and Navaho living in the high desert of the Southwest. Certainly there is a descendant steam of Arab and Persian loan words, but the Fremen are anything but Muslim, their religion being closer to the pre-ISlamic Bedouins.
Duke Leto was able to fulfil spice quota easily despite sabotaged equipment leftover from the Harkonnen, allow & buy from independent operators (hence free trade), and befriend the natives so they wouldn't attack spice mining ..... he set himself into a position to be far richer than even the harkonnen who were skimming underneath their quota. Since he would have put Spice suplass into the market, spice would be valuable commodity thus accessible to even more = something which both the Spacing Guild + Bene Gesserit fear.
Duke Leto''s plan was very well executed; however, the Duke had one serious failing. He believed that his advisors were his friends, he also placed tremendous power in the hands of Doctor Yueh. The doctor had served the House Atreides for so long that even Duke Leto couldn't see the danger. It was only in the preceding books that you truly saw the manipulations that House Atreides was subjected too. While the Emperor was a cousin to the Duke; the Emperor saw the Duke as of minor importance to Governing a world with very limited strategic value. Also, Duke Leto's own Grandmother wanted to see an end to the power of the Atreides. Basically you see multiple plans within plans conspiring against the Atreides throughout the subsequent books. But, all these entities thought that the Atreides were too weak and stupid to mount much of a threat. Even the Emperor didn't see what hidden agenda the Atreides were capable of until it was too late. Duke Paul, proved that the Fremen were the ideal mercenaries that the Atreides needed in order to sweep the chess board clear.
The cost subject you noted is often missed. We know from the start of the movie it cost 1.6 million to send ONE SHIP. If the Emperor paid a seven figure tab to move 20 people and a title document, the massive armada which hit Dune must have been incalculably expensive. I can’t fault Duke Leto for rejecting that possibility.
Unless that Heighliner had its schedule changed to send the ship. Still, the estimate from Thufir was that the Harkonnens took 10 billion every year out of Arrakis. And the Harkonnens were on Arrakis for 80 years
Not to mention that the cost of transporting military troops were far more than what the imperial delegation cost the emperor to proclaim his edict to the Atreides since that embassy was still counted as "civilian" in nature.
Ten legions. In this universe a legion is 30 thousand so 300 thousand troops. 80 billion for one military operation lasted a day or two . I believe leto knew he was doomed and carried on sacrificing himself to save his son and gave him what he needed to survive. ( dessert power )
Dr. Huey was the oddball thing the Duke could not account for. It was mentioned in the 1984 movie that Dr. Huey was conditioned against killing so he was safe to work, even on the emperor.
To be fair - Leto probably figured that Harkonnen would attack Atreides in some fashion. What he likely didn't expect was the betrayal of his trusted doctor and the scale at which the Emperor would assist his rivals. To put it in perspective - a mafia family would likely expect to get raided by their rivals at some point - what they wouldn't expect is for their rivals to bring to bear the states's own elite special forces commandoes to bear
Same I really liked Leto but after reading about dune it felt like the movie cut some scenes that would've cleared up plenty of the questions i had I didn't mind and liked the scene when Paul stuck his hand in the water bc it gave the right feeling but if they included that... I would've wanted a scene showing why the trusted doctor was so trusted by Leto
@@joseSanchez-ej2oh Exactly, like i already knew this but seeing it in a youtube video to let my friends in on the lore is just superb. and this channel is the place so far. Never the less, big expectations for part 2 and probably a part 3. It's like a new spark for me, feels better than Star wars episode 1 - 3 aswell as LOTR 1 - 3. This, is my triology, even living throughout em all. haha
I believe they had to up the timetable of the assault due to Rabban's impulsive assassination attempt on Paul with the Hunter Seeker they made up for the increased spice quota using Rabban's personal supply I
That’s the thing about life, you can plan all you want…it’s what you don’t see coming…that will make or break you, specifically how you react, or don’t, or do, or succeed. I think Leto did his best, a lesser leader; Paul would have died for sure. As a parent, ultimately, I’d want my children to survive, live and thrive after me.
It's very likely that even if the Dukes plan to induct the Freman would have failed or taken too much time Duncan could still learn a lot from them, and about their society so as to inform the Duke enough as to form a plan B.
they couldnt deny it. it was a decree from the emperor. if they flat out denied it, they could expect to be attacked and the other houses would have gone along with it.
The Duke severely underestimated his opponents, and it cost him his life. But he did win in the fact he prepared his son well enough to succeed him. All in all, I think the Duke still would have taken the same gamble even knowing he would die (thanks to Paul and later his grandson's actions). Still, I am fascinated guessing at what the Duke could have accomplished had he survived the trap his enemies made for him.
im pretty sure they anticipated 5 legions. not sure if it was really 10 that were deployed. but i think its the shield that prevented them to keep defense not the troops. i think i was pointed out that being outnumbered is not a problem as long as town shield work
The (suicide) raid on the Harkonnen spice reserves is before the attack on the city. If I recall it was retaliation for the assassination attempt on Paul?
Jessica must have seen a possible future wherein disobeying the Order and conceiving a son was serving the Hand of Fate. The Duke accepted the Emperor's assignment, not that he could refuse, trusting that Jessica would say 'nay' if it were a trap. In the same way she knew to bear a Son, she knew to not warn her Duke. That's a long-winded way of saying the Dukes' plan was to lay his neck on the block, as ordered.
I'd argue his gamble was ultimately a success. He just didn't live to see it play out. I'd say the emperor and baron's trap was a tactical success, but clearly a strategic failure. They unknowingly delivered the most powerful planet in the universe to the most powerful being in the universe.
Ironically, so was Baron Harkonens.
In his defense, the Duke didn't belive the Baron would be stupid enough to fall into the Emperor's trap. Turning House Harkonnen into an Imperial puppet
Universe or galaxy?
@@darthkek1953 known universe
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I believe Leto knew he was already dead before he left for Dune, he just didn't know "how" he was already dead. He was doing everything within his abilities to give Paul a chance at survival and to force him to "Grow up" as soon as possible. He loved his family and knew his time was very short. That was my impression when I read the book.
Maybe Leto had some innate belief in the Golden Path
@@claytonkickflip7595 Maybe. I didn’t think about that.
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I think one phrase Duke Leto spoke to Paul during heartfelt conversation gives most vital clue that Duke knows he's going die. He told Paul, " The Sleeper must Awaken" i.e. It was time for Paul Atredies to grow up.
@@paulhunter6742 agreed
I always wondered what Leto would have thought of his son's rule by the end of the second book. Leto was always portrayed as a noble and just ruler, so I wonder how he would have felt about his son heading a regime hell bent on jihading the galaxy and brutally subgugating worlds. The first time you read dune I feel like its super easy to get swept up in the archtypical hero's journey, and only later realize you're watching the origin story of Genghis Khan.
@Paul Ridgeway Yes, Paul was sufficiently Leto's son that he could not cast aside normal human morality.
I think if Leto had lived and his plans worked, that he had the ethics and force of character to prevent the jihad and still accomplish amazing things. I think Leto's story sets the stage for the internal struggles Paul and Leto 2 with the morality of what they do or allow done.
It was necessary
Well Paul tried to stop the Jihad but couldn't bring himself to die by Jamis' hand and couldn't restrain the Jihad once it started. The rest was essentially a series of dominoes going off thanks to the Missionara Protectiva. It's really the BG's fault if you want to lay blame somewhere. The Atreides at that point had a tiger by the tail.
This is why it is SO important that Dune Messiah is included as if it were the same book as Dune; we get to watch Paul turn away from it.
He knew what he was walking into, he knew the stakes and he accepted that he may not survive. But he trusted his son and the house he built to finish what he started. He's more courageous than he is given credit for. Walking towards your doom chin up with the confidence that you have built something that will continue on and succeed after your death proves his nobility, wisdom, and courage.
If the Duke’s plan had worked, Atreides could have become the most powerful house in the Landsraad, maybe even powerful enough to usurp the Emperor.
Instead it failed and his son usurped the emperor anyway, in what is likely a cleaner way than his father could've
@@xHTxRaptorF22 except for the billions of dead that followed.
Good point
I don't think he wanted the empire, just to protect his house.
@@ericthompson3982 Na it was clear in the books he was looking for more power.
The Dukes problem was one of the most "classic" and biggest ones in any form of military campaign or preparation, "time, time, time, ask me for anything but time".
The mystery of life isn't a problem to solve, but a reality to experience. A process that cannot be understood by stopping it. We must move with the flow of the process. We must join it. We must flow with it.
THE SPICE MUST FLOW!!!
@@megatronjenkins2473 Because Spice withdrawal is always fatal
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These are some of the best lines from the film, because they're NOT in the novel, yet they're so much like Herbert's own philosophical writing that they easily could've been...
@@megatronjenkins2473 we need a video on the counter attack o geidi prime
Literally the only reason the Baron and the Emperor's plan worked was Yueh. Even Thufir, the most feared tactician in the Imperium, couldn't calculate the treason of a Suk doctor. The Atreides took what they thought was a measured risk.
"A million deaths are not enough for Yueh!"
As always, great presentation.
I have always been impressed by the way Herbert made the situation complex enough that you could understand why Leto took the risks he did. It was not just a dumb mistake. The duke understood(mostly) the danger and had (almost) protected his house from that danger.
Plans within plans....
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Duke Leto was well-meaning and noble but human and fallible. He was ambitious. To gain trust he gave it, even to Yueh. Not given to hatred himself, he maybe underestimated how much the Baron would pay for the sake of hatred. It seems he didn't know that the Guild and the Bene Gessirit were so wary of Paul they would condone and even abet the Emperor's plans to destroy House Atreides.
Well how popular, charismatic as skilled Duke Leto was it made him treat to emperor not to forget he had A team of loyal retainers and army of well trained and armed men how where closing saducar level of kick ass.
When you ad all that on how often Duke did daring battles I be too troubled of Atreidies even they might not directly go challenge his throne but Letos popularity might make other houses replace imperial house.
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That last point may be the most critical factor in Leto's fall. The Duke of course had no idea about Paul's importance to the Spacing Guild and the Bene Gesserit. Normally, the Guild would've preferred treating with the Atreides as they would be better partners to gain the spice, but because of their fear of Paul, they probably turned a dea ear to any Atreides entreaties, and maybe even didn't charge the Harkonnen as much as they could have to transport their troops. Likewise, the Bene Gesserit wanted a union of Atreides and Harkonnen for their breeding program. With Paul's existence, they supported the Emperor's plot against the Atreides, maybe even pushed for it, which may have robbed Leto the time he needed for his plan to work. Unfortunately, the seemingly pragmatic Leto had no inkling of these mnear-mystical plots, so could not plan or anticipate their involvement. The game was rigged against him even before the start: at Paul's conception.
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Yeah, the breaking the Dr's conditioning was the main reason that it played out like it did. I believe it's even hunted about in the books as such a double edged sword that if anyone had found out or even suspected that they broke his conditioning it would have been a death sentence for the Baron and probably anyone close to him.
Can you explain why that would be a death sentence to Baron? Is it some kind of sacre covenant that you just don't do? And all the other houses would turn on the Baron?
@@MC-tm2uy Exactly. The unwavering loyalty and conditioning of the Suk doctors was essential to the peace of mind of all of the Houses. The knowledge that a Suk could be compromised might have destroyed that order, and it would have thrown all of the Houses into a state of paranoia.
@@MC-tm2uy because no one believes it is possible. it benefits the Baron to have such an ace up his sleeve. He can break other doctors and use them to gain an upper hand over other houses, even the emperor. If the houses and emperor found out he was capable of such a thing they would likely kill him out of fear of him using it against them.
Great video. This one really jumped out to me as I always thought the Atriedes were shown to be too easily defeated in the novels. Especially after building up the prowess of the Atriedes legions, Duncan, Thufir, and Gurney, etc. You did a really great job of giving perspective on why they were so easily defeated despite this. Duke Leto is such a great character and this video really makes me remember his line from the new film when he says something along the lines of "I thought we'd have more time".
Caladan was a planet like Earth, so there would have been experienced sailors, underwater troops, jungle fighters, etc. The problem is that most of those skills would have to be re-trained after winding up on a desert planet. The Harkonnen attack was early enough that the troops had not had a chance to change their mindset enough for a desert planet.
The attack occurred very swiftly after the Atreides arrived, if you use the 1984 movie. Jessica got pregnant with Alia before the Atreides left, and even Jessica could barely tell the signs of her pregnancy, with the book mentioning that she had been carrying Leto's daughter for a few weeks. Figure less than a month between Atreides arrival and Harkonnen attack.
This is why I was disappointed that the movie only mentioned 3 Battalions of Sardaukar was camouflaged as House Harkonnen troops.
I know that Villeneuve was portraying the Sardaukar as the top dog of the military order in the Imperium but the novel portrays the overwhelming lengths the Harkonnens and the Emperor were willing to expend to ensure the complete destruction of House Atreides.
@@senpainoticeme9675 Not only that but didn't the Emperor stand the cost of loaning five legions of Sardaukar to the Baron? It was HIS plan after all. All the Harkonnens had to do was provide uniform disguises for the Sardaukar.
@@waynegoldpig2220 it was 1 full legion of Sardaukar disguised as Harkonnens in the initial plan to destroy House Atreides. He brought 5 legions after a mysterious leader brought spice production into a complete halt.
The Harkonnens brought 9 of their own legions which funnily enough is more like a support to the Sardaukar in the initial destruction of House Atreides.
Thus the Baron paid for the transportation of 10 full legions of military which almost bankrupted him with the concurrent destruction of most of his spice hoard in Giedi Prime.
Duke Leto was the true hero in this series. Who knows how his plans would have ultimately played out in the Universe but he is not just a talented, driven and charismatic leader, but a man who believes whole hearted in the Atriedies creed. An honorable and fearsome leader who exemplifies everything a ruler should in theory be. But dies in the Harkonnen trap proving that all these qualities may not bring victory alone and fate can be cruel indeed.
If Leto had a plan like this working in his mind, that would speak volumes to his strength of character, his will, and his sense of morality. To have the foresight to look at what he's been given, realize that his time was running out, and choose to give his son the best chance he possibly could at not merely survival but also victory...
To me it's a wondrous thing that he was willing to sacrifice himself so thoroughly to support the possibility of a future he would never see.
I think one of the main reasons the Duke's plan worked in the end was everyone underestimating Paul. The Bene Gesserit supreme mother knew he was being trained by Jessica, and might have supplied that information to the emperor and Harkonens, but likely didn't. Add to that he was being trained as a mentat, which was probably not known outside of the Duke and a handful of teachers, and Paul is being trained to be one of the most dangerous beings in existence. Meanwhile outside of the Duke's inner circle, Paul is just seen as a 15-year-old kid with limited ability and knowledge, and isn't taken seriously. I would say Yueh likely knew all this, but had no real loyalty to the Emperor or the Baron, so kept it to himself in order to provide Paul with the best chance of survival.
I can't help but think after hearing this analysis that the emperor's ultimate plan was to destroy House Atreides and weaken House Harkonnen. On the surface, it worked. House Atreides was extinct (so the emperor thought) and House Harkonnen was saddled with decades of debt which would diminish its power. One rival house was destroyed, and another was diminished.
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@@Thehomelessathlete Agreed. I think that's only mentioned in the book.
@@TheKulu42 book is sigma based hahaa
Two birds with one stone 🤔.
Question for Nerd Cookies:
What was the Bene Gesserit’s plan once they had their originally envisioned kwisatz haderach? The one that was supposed to be both Harkonnen (by Feyd presumably) & an unnamed Atreides female?
I’ve never been quite clear on what the Bene Gesserit do then.
That's a good idea for another video!
@@NerdCookies love your stuff! Thank you for helping me understand this massive universe a little better
Thanks for the support!
To guide humanity's future development with the aid of prescient foresight & male lineage access to previous lives. They used their skills over centuries to produce a Kwisatch Haderach, imagine what they could accomplish with Paul's powers if they had been able to tame him for their own ends.
Sheer hubris on the Bene Gesserit part in one way but unknowingly secured the future of humanity in a completely unforseen by them way. At a cost of billions of lives lost along the way though.
@@adrianmcmahon5731 but does that include overthrowing the Corrino’s and essentially taking over the imperium? Like, ok, they have a Kwisatz Haderach. How do they plan to use him? That’s the part I never quite got
I think the way the movie was cut and it's runtime, gave me the impression that Leto was a fool
Bc for me who knew nothing of Dune, this movie had a lightning fast pace
And it felt like they were attacked the moment they stepped on the planet
One or two scenes extra scenes would've done a lot
For example, one scene that showed a few days or a week passing on Arraxis like that dinner scene I've read about
And i did not get the feeling that the Doctor that betrayed them was trusted as much as he apparently was.
He did not get much screen time and in one of his few scenes the doctor speaks in a language Jessica doesn't understand so that she doesn't hear that he doesn't trust those creepy nuns and Jessica uses sign language so the doctor can't hear what she's saying to Paul ...
One more scene of the doctor would've cleared that up, like having him in conversation with Leto's inner circle that shows the doctor is a trusted Johnny tight lips( which is apparently what those doctors are supposed to be in Dune ?)
Loved the movie as a whole tho
Just really needed it to include some more scenes to clear up some things that felt odd, including to prove that Leto had reason to make this gamble
Agreed, the book is difficult to express in a movie, I feel like they sacrificed a lot due to the medium's limitations. My hope is it gave enough to encourage people to read the book
Oh I'm adding Johnny Tight Lips to my vocabulary lol thank you sir
@@cj-hw3pv yeah I think I will
I know the entire plot and want to read how it's delivered
Yes, there needed to be more explained to a general audience.
Its hard to disagree. This remake, was simply put, badly written and edited. Even as someone who has read Dune and fully understands what is(supposed) to be going on in this film, It is poorly structured, written, edited and paced. Few, if any of the supporting characters motivations, story, or goals comes through, and the 'main' characters hardly fare any better. Yes it looks good, in a spartan kind of way, but the movie gives the impression that Duke Leto, and everyone under him, are completely ignorant and unprepared for ANY of the events leading up to the attack. its hard to understand what makes the 'Duke', or his advisors, so intelligent and capable, much less the 'best' in the imperium based on what is presented. They all look dazed and confused by what is going on around them. I can imagine, a lot of viewers might have felt that way too....
These Dune videos are always excellent. Keep up the great work Elaine, take care!
Excellent summation of the backstory. You hit on all the key points I can remember. One of the things I liked about the first part of the book was how you almost think the Atreides could pull their plan off, but the attack comes too soon and is too big for them to contend with. Also, I remember a line about how the Harkonnen knew the distribution of the Atreides forces and so knew where and how hard to attack them. Yueh's betrayal was another complicated bit of business that took me a while to figure out. Yes the Baron broke his Suk conditioning, but only insofar as to get Yueh to resolve to kill the Baron - handing over Leto was just the bait to Yueh's trap (the Duke being a dead man walking in Yueh's mind). It's such an impressive bit of writing.
I would enjoy seeing this play out in an alternate timeline fashion. It would have been interesting to see how the Bene Gesserit would proceed with dealing with Paul. I assume Paul's Kwisatz Haderach transformation would have taken longer giving the Bene G more time to manipulate Paul to their objectives. Great video thanks.
It's been a while, but isn't Leto II (Paul's son) the kwisatz haderach?
@@mrbibs350 I think both Paul and Leto II both were, if I'm understanding the books correctly.
@@austinharris9077 Currently reading Children of Dune, and yes Leto II does become. So far of what I read he has started on his Golden Path by merging himself with the sandtrout and confront his father. He stated his intentions well aware of the consequences as Paul tells him he well create hell in the universe.
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My take is he simply underestimated the trap. He didn't expect the emperor to be as directly involved as he was. He expected house harkonnen to have been given free reign by the emperor, but not that the emperor would directly support them in their inevitable attack.
Plus that the Harkonnens were willing to spend several decades' worth of spice profits to transport the invasion force. The estimated attack size was 4-5 battalions. Instead there was one legion of Sardaukar (10 brigades, each of which had multiple battalions), out of a total force of 10 legions.
If you use the 10:1 ratio from Brigade to Battalion, that means 1 Legion = 10 Brigades = 100 Battalions. So instead of expecting an attack size of 5 battalions at most, the Harkonnen attack was ~1000 battalions. So about 200* bigger than expected, plus arriving earlier than Duke Atreides expected.
No he knew ahead of time that the emperor would be sending Sardaukar dressed in Harkonnen uniforms
@@toddkes5890 Also they cunningly deployed ancient technology (conventional artillery) that was completely obsolete because of prolific shield usage. But since Arrakis didn't take kindly to shield usage, they were very successful using these museum pieces.
@@martinsmolik2449 The artillery was mainly used to shell the entrances of caves that the Atreides had retreated into. Not actual battlefield use
I enjoy listening to your video assessments. Your voice is pleasing, and its clear you've done your homework. Moreover, your discussions are rational and you certainly inform me, who hasn't read the book series, about elements which aren't brought forth in the movies or are passed over briefly. For instance in the new film, Duke Leto says to his concubine "I thought we'd have more time." Presented with little context, it wasn't clear to me what he meant; I thought at first that he was referring to his relationship with Lady Jessica, especially when he said soon after that "I should have married you." But I was left wondering if that was in fact what he meant; and after viewing your videos, I realize now that he was referring primarily to his larger plan for dealing with the situation his house was in after the Emperor assigned him to take over governance of Arrakis. I like your videos and appreciate the way I feel more informed and feel I can grasp more clearly the events of the story. Thank you!
We Need a vid on the counter attack of geidi prime
Really good points here! I'd add one more: Leto underestimated just how blatantly the Emperor would support the attack (absurd funding, actual on-the-ground Sardaukar, etc). Leto correctly assumed that the other Great Houses would be extremely displeased by the assertion of Imperial authority over their domains. He just overestimated how much they would actually do about it, and that the emperor would be willing to risk it.
Firstly big fan of the book, the ultimate reference! Thufir was in Arakeen when the attack occurred, and said 50 years of spice profit which amazed him so 1) the greatest tactical mind underestimated the Harkonen price they were willing to pay to get even with house Atreidies and 2) the wealth they had accumulated to spend that much. A spy in their midst was known just not that it was Yeuh which caused a lot of internal diversion. The book does not say it exactly but the Atreidies were on Arakis at least 4 to 8 months as Leto was nicknamed "the just" by the Fremen, so he had an impact on the lives of the Arakis people.
there was a moment in the film where the Duke asked Jessica if she would always protect their son as both a mother and as a Bene Gesserit. He wanted to make sure Paul would survive.
i never realized Dr Yueh's wife was Bene Geserit?? Wouldnt they have had something to say about the Baron torturing one of their own?
In theory, yes.
Whether it's Juana(Yueh's wife), Lady Fenring, or Jessica, you see the BG willing to place it's agents in very dangerous situations.
If you think of them as spies, covert agents, it makes sense that the sisterhood would be a fearsome enemy but individual women, sent out on dangerous missions, usually alone, would be at grave personal risk.
The interesting question to me is "since the BG would know that Yueh's wife had disappeared, why would they not inform Jessica?"
Probably, Juana had been thought dead by everybody and the Harkonnens were secretly interfering with Yueh without anyone's knowledge.
No one but Yueh would even consider that she's possibly still alive.
And even he knew better.
I think the books make quite clear that the Bene Gesserit are complete religious fanatics, and any individual member of their cult was seen as an expendable asset. Not even the Reverend Mother Mohiam (who's also the Imperial Truthsayer) was above this - when she's sent to Caladan by herself to test Paul she fully intends to kill him if he fails the test, so there'd be no possible way for her to escape retribution if she were to have done so. The potential demise of even such a highly placed and senior member of the Bene Gesserit hierarchy was seen as acceptable to further the goals of their breeding program. If they were willing to do that, I have difficulty imagining them caring one whit if Yueh's wife was tortured/killed.
Unless the death of a sister was to serve a greater purpose. Jessica had already thwarted the sisterhood plans by having Paul so in order to put things back on track Juana was used as a sacrifice. Remember Jessica daughter was supposed to be a bridge between Harkkonen and Atreidies but Paul's birth ensured the breech was left open.
Torturing one of their own what? You mean, the Bene Gesserit would have been upset at Wanna being tortured by the Harkonnens?
As with any secret society that sends out agents to perform missions or go undercover, it's a given that it's risky. Wanna Marcus was important only to Yueh, and while the B.G. would not have been pleased at her capture and murder, she was ultimately worth less to them in the grand scheme.
BG people don’t really ‘care’ about people in the same way normal people do so probably they looked at saving her as a waste of their time
Ive never read the books, never watched the old movie or the shows. I just watched this movie last week and it was incredible. I got the sense that the Duke knew what was going to happen and you could see him trying to hurriedly teach his son valuable lessons because he sensed he was going to die sooner or later after arriving on Arrakis. Turns out it was almost immediate.
Bravo for another great review of Dune - I never gave Leto a second thought other than he really didn't do a good job with his sentries. Your hypothesis that Leto was attempting a path for Paul as a plot-within-plot is much more plausible. Thank you for this new perspective.
The Duke made the same mistake we all make and that is he thought he had time.
Pretty straight forward,build a relationship with the Freman.. who know the land and how to fight on It and use desert power to protect and hold it .
Dune is my all time favorite book, I've read it probably close to 60 times. Read it so often I had to spring for a nice hardcover edition because I kept reducing the paperbacks to tatters.
In the book, Duke Leto laid his plan out to Paul pretty succinctly: Make friends with the Fremen enough that they'd help the Atreides out when it came time to face the Emperors Sardaukar. The Dukes belief was that due to Arrakis' harsh conditions toughening them up and their own naturally violent lifestyle, coupled with the fact that there were FAR more of them than the Emperor or Harkonnens realized, that the Fremen would make for very capable allies when the time came. And the Duke wasn't actually wrong about that. The reason that it didn't work is because it didn't really have a chance too. The Atreides underestimated just how much expense their enemies were willing to spring for in order to destroy them. Arrakis' breathtakingly high GDP for somewhere in the span of 50 to 60 years would have just barely covered the troop transport costs alone. Even despite that though, the Fremens aid likely would have made the difference if the Atreides-Fremen relationship had been allowed more time to develop before the attack came. As it was, the attack that killed Duke Leto came as inroads with the Fremen were just at their infancy and weren't nearly developed enough for the Fremen to commit to actively playing a role in planetary defense.
“Our victory, your victory, was so close. I wish you could’ve lived to see it “
As a fan of both book and film I feel almost like I'm betraying Leto when I say I think he was somewhat naive when it came to the planet Dune. Personally I don't consider the prequels cannon whatsoever so I can't comment what's been written about his youth but this man must have been brought up with political intrigue as a day to day occurrence. I can understand not suspecting a Suk doctor of betrayal as at that point it was unheard of but he points out several times that the Harkonnen would not just walk away. For me his time frame of action was ill conceived. A better strategist knowing how much the Baron had lost would have been prepared for a huge attack right from the very beginning. At the end I just feel that suspecting the Baron and the Emperor were in bed together, he greatly underestimated their intent and reach.
As always, a brilliant video. Your narration and execution are fantastic. Well done.
please do a video on the counter attack of geidi prime pleaseeee
For the book I agree, he was naive, but in the movie it felt like he knew he was going to die from the very beginning, like his goal was just to try his best to make sure his son can survive. Where in the book it seemed like he thought he would have time to recruit the fremen and use them to fight back. I remember that he suspected the fremen could rival the saudukar, but I dont remember if he thought they would attack along side the harkonen.
Excellent books. I read the news book by Frank Hebert's son 'House Harkonnen' it was really well written, really captured the story. Looking forward to reading the others. Great video, I enjoyed the synapses.
need a vid on the counter attack of gidi prime from the book
When I was a teenager, I remember reading the book while the mid day heat raged in India in the dry season...
I remember looking up after been engrossed in the book, seeing sari wrapped figures bent against the wind blown dust as a dust devil wandered down the street
We Need a vid on the counter attack of geidi prime
I read it while on vacation in vegas. Looked out the balcony to see planes landing like carryalls in a city surrounded by desert… this book is enchanting.
In addressing the question Nerd Cookies poses, the first point that must be clarified is whether House Atreides had any •choice• to accept the Emperor’s order to assume the stewardship, and serve as fief ruler, of Arrakis. But this video initially overlooks that fundamental issue, and almost discusses Duke Leto’s decisions as if he could have declined the offer to take over Arrakis. It’s only at 7:37 that NC states - and just in passing, really - that Leto could have rejected the Emperor’s directive only at the cost of placing House Atreides outside the imperial order, and accepting the status of rebel against the Emperor.
We Need a vid on the counter attack of geidi prime
The first third of the book is probably my favorite. When they land it's so crazy, they stay up for days on fatigue pills, the endless meetings, the constant paranoia, the secret missions with Thufir Hawat, Lady Jessica's spying and investigating! All great stuff, you get to see first hand what a competent leader Duke Leto was and just how powerful the people in his house were.
Yueh was some how smart enough to achieve his status, but also stupid enough to think the baron would honor his deal, or any deal. I've always had an issue story wise with that, not a person in the galaxy would trust that man, but for some reason he did. Did he honestly believe his wife was even still alive? Yes, he was conditioned and manipulated but he didn't anticipate that they would try that? Going to Leto, Jessica, and Thufir for help was the only real option he had from the start, Jessica probably could have confirmed her life or death in a moment, but somehow it didn't occur to him. And how did they get to his wife in the first place? Presumably they lived IN the Atreides home on Caladan. That's always bothered me for some reason.
It's a testament to the quality of the books that people are still speculating about them nearly 60 years after the first was written.
I don't get why anyone could think he was tricked or underestimated the danger. He knew full well that arakkis was a trap and says exactly that in a discussion with paul. But it was a trap that they had no choice but to step into and had been working to shore up his position from the day they landed.
It is a treasury that we can even talk about such things as the subtler character motivations in a canonical work. Most modern shows and books utterly lack the coherence for such an analysis.
please do a video on the counter attack of geidi prime pleaseeee
I wonder if the Emperor would have been less likely to support the Harkonnen's in their assault if the Atreides hadn't been training their House Troops to be as proficient in combat as the Sardaukar.
possibly. the emperor was driven by fear and jealousy. in the novel the emperors daughter says that she knew her father admired Duke Leto and wished he had a son like him. But, he feared how popular he was amongst the houses, and how good of a military he had, and the best thing to do was get rid of him.
I'd say the Duke's biggest mistake (and the mistake of Thufir as well) was in underestimating the threat that the Emperor felt from Leto. Possibly underestimating the Baron's hatred for the Atredies as well, but if they had accurately estimated how threatened the Emperor felt, they might have thought to up the amount of resources they attributed to the Baron AND how quickly they needed to move to defend against an outside attack.
Other than that, yeah - the Duke had a great plan that was thwarted really only by Yueh. If Yueh hadn't been a traitor (one of the aspects of the movie that I did not care for was how little it went into that particular storyline), then the initial attack may have been defended against, even with the 10 Legions instead of 5 against them. Everything else Leto did was brilliant and might have worked.
please do a video on the counter attack of geidi prime pleaseeee
Oscar Isaac was literally put on earth for this role.
IMO Duke Leto had a long term plan. He wanted to win the hearts of the Fremen and fortify his position of power. Leto did not anticipate that the Baron and the Emperor would attacked so quickly. His long term planning could not protect his family from a surprise attack.
Do you think once he had his “desert power” that he would’ve made a play for the throne? Or was this a matter of survival kinda thing?
@@stefanfilipovits21 Leto did not marry Jessica because his goal was to marry the emperor's daughter. I think that Leto would have used his desert power to become emperor.
@@stefanfilipovits21 Its both. He had already reached a position where he would inevitably have to fight the emperor to survive. And to fight the emperor is to implicitly make a play for the throne.
Exactly. Leto made no mistakes (apart from trusting Yueh). The huge force sent by the Emperor, so early was impossible to predict or stop.
Thanks for that in-depth analysis it cleared up some things for me
You have such a Great Voice, Always a informative video
I think she's part Bene Gesserit and she's using a combo of Voice & Weirding Way,lol...
No one can foresee everything. The Duke's plan was a good and reasonable one. Without the Good Doctor's treachery, it would have worked. The story would have been a far different one....perhaps one less epic. Great video.
It would still have succeed, but it would have been harder to succeed and more obvious. The problem is that Duke Leto only expected 5 battalions, and after the first audit. Instead 10 Legions were sent, plus the attack arrived within a matter of weeks (Alia in Jessica's womb was described as only a few weeks along when she and Paul were in the Stilltent).
need a vid on the counter attack of gidi prime from the book
@@Thehomelessathlete I'd like to see that.
Ultimately like you said the betrayal happened too quickly.
But I don’t think for a second that the Duke thought he was going to survive that planet. He talks about how this place will never be home, but how he can hopefully make it home for Paul. It seems like everything he was doing was to ensure that his son had the best shot shot at having a home there. I feel like he knew he was dead. I just think he thought he had more time. Even Paul notes that his father is essentially picturing his own death after that meeting. Paul was super disturbed at seeing how desperate Leto was and knew it was bad bad.
But no one and I mean no one could have foreseen that Yueh could have been the one who betrayed them. The emperor didn’t know, nor the BG, or anyone. It was supposed to be impossible and I feel the baron would have been executed immediately if anyone found out it was Yueh and that the conditioning was broken.
I wish the movie would have included more about Yueh because I found his inner thoughts some of the saddest and his death was badass. I loved his note to Paul and Jessica saying “I don’t want or need your forgiveness. I have enough burdens to bear.” And it spoke volumes to me. They did Yueh dirty in the movie but I do get that unless you’re a book reader you wouldn’t care or see how it’s a big deal and it would have dragged out the movie. But I also hate in the movie that they make it look like the duke thinks Paul and Jessica are dead.
Such a complex book because honestly I should hate Yueh but I can’t bring myself to hate him. I absolutely hate the baron and that psycho Piter. But not Yueh. There are no good guys in these novels. The only character I truly loved was Irulan (not going into why on this comment) but poor Leto. But it seems he knew he would die. Just not within days (or weeks. Timeline is unclear but it wasn’t long and it was so so fast.)
I always felt that allowing his Suk doctor's wife to become unaccounted for was a major misstep. I'd say that was the one thing that might have earned him a victory he'd live to see.
they knew Yueh hated the Harkonnen. That along with his conditioning, led them to believe it impossible for him to be a traitor.
Leaving behind saboteurs was a good move by the Harkonnens. It kept the Atreides looking outwards for the enemy and suppressed the inward suspicion that might have saved them.
Thanks elaine, RUclips never notified me again, enjoyed the stream on Josiahs channel. ( was listening)
I didn't realize that the doctor's wife was a Bene Gesserit 😮. I love this channel so much thank you. Please keep the Dune lore videos coming. 🤙🏾✌🏾
I've also seen a theory that the creature that gets banished from the barons chambers is what become of her
What im confused about is yueh's wife. She's a bene geserete and the order is loyal to their own, so why did they not know she was misssing, and if they did why did they do nothing about it
I can’t believe I never thought of that before
The whole point in kidnapping someone (in this case to use as a hostage) is so that very few people know you've done it. The Sisterhood is a pretty impressive organization, but there's nothing that definitely states that they're all-knowing and that they can always keep track of every single member.
Plans within plans. To go after the Barron after Wanna's disappearance would expose the BG and their breeding program for the Kwisatz haderach. The BG operate in secret yet are a school for girls. They all play a part of a plan within a plan.
As far as I remember there was no FTL communication in Dune - so many tropes we depend on, do not work. Apparently, Harkonnen and Imperial House had hidden ambush in plain sight, planning GENERATIONS (Bene Gesserit anyone?) ahead, so size and disposition of their forces were apparent...and not at all unusual. Duke missed simple thing - timing. He assumed that trap was primed, but will not go in motion for some time and apparent trouble (mining equipment) was prime factor, not feint. He might have expected that due to performance, reputation of House Atreides will be targeted first, for not delivering - taking their support away before taking on directly on them. He assumed that political and reputation-wise destruction will come before physical one.
Very well said Ms Nerd Cookies. Thank you again.
for one thing, to say no to the stewarship risked longer Harkonnen rule and more profits for them! He guessed rightly the Baron had secretly made an illegal stockpile of spice. And wisely ordered a quick raid on Gedi Prime not long after setting on Arrakis
I think it's also important to bring attention to the deceit and doubt the Baron sowed amongst the Atreides' ranks. Thufir was kept distracted by his suspicions of Lady Jessica, which also diverted Duncan Idaho from his place amongst the Fremen to spy on her. If Thufir and Jessica were able to work together, she might have revealed her suspicions of Yueh to the mentat, giving him more data to compute. Likewise, Duncan wo7ld have had more opportunity to convince Stilgar to join with Leto.
That one seed of doubt might have been the Baron's most powerful weapon in his success.
Needed my dose of cookies! Ty
Yay!!!! Dune Cookies fo break time!!!!
8:00 He did this not realizing this would make Paul’s life infinitely harder, as Paul would be forced between leaving the burden of the Golden Path to Leto II, and require his death at the hands of his sister, or to spare Leto II, giving up his very humanity, Chani and his children, watching them all die from assassination, or of old age.
The particular fascination we have with Paul is his morality and sense of right and wrong, faced with the reality of the fact he’s condemned ALL OF HUMANITY to stagnation and extinction. And to know he’s had to condemn his son to becoming an inhuman monster, the greatest butcher in the history of humanity, in return for saving humanity’s future.
The finest science fiction series of all time. And yes, I’ve read Mote in God’s Eye, Foundation series, and all of Clarke, Heinlein and Asimov. 😛
Paul & his son Leto’s dilemma is summed up in Harvey Dent's immortal words from Nolan's TDK:
_"You Either Die A Hero, Or You Live Long Enough To See Yourself Become The Villain."_
@@GonzoTehGreat need a vid on the counter attack of gidi prime from the book
"Everyone has a plan until they get punched in the mouth" -Mike Tyson
Plan Failure Category: _If It's Not One Thing, It's Another - It's Always Something._
Great episode, many thanks!
Leto knew it was a trap but refuse would have been disastrous. He had no choice. With that in mind he tried to forge alliances as quickly as possible. Most rulers in his place wouldn’t believe that their rivals would spend 60+ years, 3 generations of wealth, to attack their foes. His underestimating Harrkonens hatred of his house and trusting Huey lead to his utter demise. He was fortunate that Jessica and Paul were well trained otherwise his entire house would have fallen that night.
The Baron didn't care that they'd spent that money because his long term plan was to marry his nephew to the emperor's daughter and take the throne for House Harrkonen.
His plan was sheer elegance in its simplicity, first get the Emperor to secretly add his Sarkuda forces to the Harrkonen attack against a popular and beloved Duke with widespread support using the Emperor's vanity and fear of being usurped to force his hand.
Then he'd take Dune back and he'd have a stranglehold on Spice because he had a huge stockpile while they rebuilt the harvesting operation.
Then when the Spice was flowing again he'd blackmail the Emperor with the secret truth behind the invasion which would turn many houses against the Throne(the Emperor should have stayed neutral in such a conflict).
Eventually the blackmail would involve marrying a daughter into the Harrkonen family and then the Baron would try an assassinate the Emperor or even oust him some other way and with control of the throne that sixty years of spice would be peanuts compared to the future command of the empire by house Harrkonen.
As I said before his plan was sheer elegance in its simplicity.
please do a video on the counter attack of geidi prime pleaseeee
@@Thehomelessathlete what purpose will that make? It was only mentioned once in the novel and no further details provided.
Another thoughtful, interesting video, thanks, Cookie!
Beautiful analysis, thank you. One thing for certain is the Duke was not weak.
Duke Leto unfortunately had no chance. He had no idea about Paul's importance to the Spacing Guild and the Bene Gesserit. Normally, the Guild should've preferred treating with the Atreides as they would be better partners for spice access, but because of their fear of Paul, they probably turned a deaf ear to any Atreides entreaties, and maybe even didn't charge the Harkonnen as much as they could've to transport their troops. Likewise, the Bene Gesserit wanted a union of Atreides and Harkonnen for their breeding program. With Paul's existence, they supported the Emperor's plot against the Atreides, maybe even pushed for it, which may have robbed Leto the time he needed for his plan to work. Unfortunately, the seemingly pragmatic Leto had no inkling of these near-mystical plots, so could not plan or anticipate their involvement. The game was rigged against him even before the start: at Paul's conception.
He should've let the Baron keep Arakis. In time the Harkonens would have attacked the emperor for total control of the galaxy. The emperor might then have asked the house of Atriedes for help in order to save himself. And at that point, Leto could've set whatever price he wanted out of the deal.., INCLUDING spice production rights.
There's absolutely no evidence in the novel that supports this. And no hint that Baron Harkonnen ever even remotely considered taking on the Emperor and his Sardaukar in a direct military confrontation.
His plan was originally to use the wealth of Arrakis to buy friends and allies and build up his forces, based on his (and Hawat's) estimate of the number of Sardaukar the Emperor would assign to the mission based on the Guild's troop transport charges. He probably had some thought of winning the planet's populace to his side as a recruiting base for the expansion of his forces. I am not sure even he and Hawat suspected just how large and prepared that populace would be.
I think a flaw in his plan once Idaho briefed him on the numbers of Fremen and their hatred for the Harkonnens and the Empire would have been trying to form the Fremen into conventional military units, rather than accepting that they would fight as warriors of a tribe along side, not as part, of the Atreides army. Had he been given the time he thought he had, he would have been prepared to defeat the invasion that he and Hawat expected. Neither he nor Hawat knew that the Emperor was committing as much as ten times the Sardaukar as he expected. Then there was the Traitor.
Thus the likely outcome might have been the same. Two things would have to change. First, Yueh had to be neutralized. Jessica should have pressed him harder. Second, the fighting power of the Fremen allows the Atreides to retreat into the desert, rather than the caves in the shield wall, where they ended up being buried alive. Leto, in alliance with the Fremen, could deny the Harkonnens control of the spice and once the Sardaukar left, he could take control of the planet. The Emperor would have the choice of invading the planet at enormous cost or finding a diplomatic option. In this, Leto had a possible off ramp. Either he could marry Irulen or Paul could marry Irulen, guaranteeing the rule of the Emperor until his death and then the rise of an Atreides dynasty. There had been one before in the Empires history, and current House Corrino had a significant amount of Atreides "blood", the two Houses marrying over the years.
The problem would have been the Bene Gesserit and the Guild. They had helped Shadam gain the Throne and they controlled him, as much as he could be controlled. The Sisters had insured that he would never have a son to carry his lineage forward. Sending Irulen to Arrakis to marry Paul would have been the best alternative while also spitting into the eyes of the Sisters and the Guild.
In fact, I could see an alternative story in which Shadam carries through a plot to send Irulen (like in the mini-series) to the Duke to "allay his fears", then give the Sardaukar secret orders to join the Atreides and exterminate the Harkonnens. The Duke, with the control of the spice and supported by the Sardaukar, would become Regent (I expect Shadam expected to be assassinated when he encompassed his plot), while Paul would become Irulen's Consort as she becomes Empress and rules from Arrakis.
In either case, the Atreides alliance with the Fremen would have probably required the Duke to send Paul to live with them for a few years, both to become grounded in their social customs and to further earn their confidence (he would already have fought beside them). With the Fremen, he would have become a worm rider and in the stietch, picked up Chani as concubine/lover while being more and more exposed to the raw spice in the air he breathed and his food and water, which would have forced the continuing development of his prescience. There is a future path here were he might still drink the "Water of Life" and become the Kwitsatz Hadderach. But he now as Consort, controlled the Sardaukar in Irulen's name, and with the reduction of the threat with the conquest of the planet by the Atreides, the Jihad might have been avoided or better controlled, while Paul would also be able to bend the Guild and perhaps the Sisterhood to his will.
BTW, despite some disagreement over some departures from the book and its low budget CGI and Eastern European actors, the mini-series was closest to the books. I think Chalmette is a better Paul simply because he more matches the book's description as late to get his growth and being 15 at the start of the story. I am also one of those that doesn't think that the Fremen were "Arabs in Space". Remember that they moved across many planets after they were moved off Earth, at one point becoming ZENSunni wanderers, which implies a mixture of Buddhist or Shinto worshippers. There are blue eyed, blond Muslims from the Caucasus for instance, which is where the Mamelucks of Egypt drew their slave-soldiers or the Balkan European Christian children that were converted into the Janissaries. Both the Mongols and Manchus, along with the Scythians, Parthians, Sarmatians and Huns all lived in or alongside deserts. There's the Bushmen of the Kalahari and the Apaches and Navaho living in the high desert of the Southwest. Certainly there is a descendant steam of Arab and Persian loan words, but the Fremen are anything but Muslim, their religion being closer to the pre-ISlamic Bedouins.
Duke Leto was able to fulfil spice quota easily despite sabotaged equipment leftover from the Harkonnen, allow & buy from independent operators (hence free trade), and befriend the natives so they wouldn't attack spice mining ..... he set himself into a position to be far richer than even the harkonnen who were skimming underneath their quota. Since he would have put Spice suplass into the market, spice would be valuable commodity thus accessible to even more = something which both the Spacing Guild + Bene Gesserit fear.
Duke Leto''s plan was very well executed; however, the Duke had one serious failing. He believed that his advisors were his friends, he also placed tremendous power in the hands of Doctor Yueh. The doctor had served the House Atreides for so long that even Duke Leto couldn't see the danger. It was only in the preceding books that you truly saw the manipulations that House Atreides was subjected too. While the Emperor was a cousin to the Duke; the Emperor saw the Duke as of minor importance to Governing a world with very limited strategic value. Also, Duke Leto's own Grandmother wanted to see an end to the power of the Atreides. Basically you see multiple plans within plans conspiring against the Atreides throughout the subsequent books. But, all these entities thought that the Atreides were too weak and stupid to mount much of a threat. Even the Emperor didn't see what hidden agenda the Atreides were capable of until it was too late. Duke Paul, proved that the Fremen were the ideal mercenaries that the Atreides needed in order to sweep the chess board clear.
The cost subject you noted is often missed. We know from the start of the movie it cost 1.6 million to send ONE SHIP. If the Emperor paid a seven figure tab to move 20 people and a title document, the massive armada which hit Dune must have been incalculably expensive. I can’t fault Duke Leto for rejecting that possibility.
Unless that Heighliner had its schedule changed to send the ship. Still, the estimate from Thufir was that the Harkonnens took 10 billion every year out of Arrakis. And the Harkonnens were on Arrakis for 80 years
Not to mention that the cost of transporting military troops were far more than what the imperial delegation cost the emperor to proclaim his edict to the Atreides since that embassy was still counted as "civilian" in nature.
Can you say more about the Atreides attacks on Geidi Prime? I don't remember that from the books or other films
Duke Leto underestimated how much the Emperor feared his house
Ten legions. In this universe a legion is 30 thousand so 300 thousand troops. 80 billion for one military operation lasted a day or two . I believe leto knew he was doomed and carried on sacrificing himself to save his son and gave him what he needed to survive. ( dessert power )
Dessert power. It's the sugar that kills.
4:29 - just realised that Leto is wearing Mechanix gloves. I've got the same model.
The upcoming Dune Awakening game intends to explore this, as the game explores what would happen if the assault on Arrakeen had failed.
Thought the music was "Inama Nushif" by Azam Ali which was used on the Children of Dune soundtrack
"morally good, compassionate man"- Paul left fremens sweep over the Empire which led to atrocities beyond any scale before him
I think any plans that would keep a leader alive like this is a good plan
Dr. Huey was the oddball thing the Duke could not account for. It was mentioned in the 1984 movie that Dr. Huey was conditioned against killing so he was safe to work, even on the emperor.
Piter was just so goddamn good that he did the impossible and broke Yueh's conditioning.
To be fair - Leto probably figured that Harkonnen would attack Atreides in some fashion. What he likely didn't expect was the betrayal of his trusted doctor and the scale at which the Emperor would assist his rivals. To put it in perspective - a mafia family would likely expect to get raided by their rivals at some point - what they wouldn't expect is for their rivals to bring to bear the states's own elite special forces commandoes to bear
Oh yes, i needed this
Same
I really liked Leto but after reading about dune it felt like the movie cut some scenes that would've cleared up plenty of the questions i had
I didn't mind and liked the scene when Paul stuck his hand in the water bc it gave the right feeling but if they included that...
I would've wanted a scene showing why the trusted doctor was so trusted by Leto
@@joseSanchez-ej2oh Exactly, like i already knew this but seeing it in a youtube video to let my friends in on the lore is just superb. and this channel is the place so far. Never the less, big expectations for part 2 and probably a part 3. It's like a new spark for me, feels better than Star wars episode 1 - 3 aswell as LOTR 1 - 3. This, is my triology, even living throughout em all. haha
Dune: never explain paralysis by analysis for "plans within plans". Also: drugs in the 60 were dope.
Enjoyed this very much
I believe they had to up the timetable of the assault due to Rabban's impulsive assassination attempt on Paul with the Hunter Seeker they made up for the increased spice quota using Rabban's personal supply I
In charge of Arrakis for 80 years...and still went 50 years into debt to take it back. *whistle....
Desert power. Ben and Jerry’s. Baskin robbins. Cold stone creamery. Conquer all.
That’s the thing about life, you can plan all you want…it’s what you don’t see coming…that will make or break you, specifically how you react, or don’t, or do, or succeed. I think Leto did his best, a lesser leader; Paul would have died for sure. As a parent, ultimately, I’d want my children to survive, live and thrive after me.
He read the script and delivered same as directed. Acting is a paid profession.
Great video. Much info in 10 mins.
His plan was to have the universe's most glorious beard, and he was wildly successful
It's very likely that even if the Dukes plan to induct the Freman would have failed or taken too much time Duncan could still learn a lot from them, and about their society so as to inform the Duke enough as to form a plan B.
I always wondered what would have happened to house Atreadies had they declined taking control of Arakis.
they couldnt deny it. it was a decree from the emperor. if they flat out denied it, they could expect to be attacked and the other houses would have gone along with it.
The Duke severely underestimated his opponents, and it cost him his life. But he did win in the fact he prepared his son well enough to succeed him. All in all, I think the Duke still would have taken the same gamble even knowing he would die (thanks to Paul and later his grandson's actions). Still, I am fascinated guessing at what the Duke could have accomplished had he survived the trap his enemies made for him.
I can only assume before the video starts, that Leto wanted to restart spice production and hold Arakas against Harkonen.
im pretty sure they anticipated 5 legions. not sure if it was really 10 that were deployed. but i think its the shield that prevented them to keep defense not the troops. i think i was pointed out that being outnumbered is not a problem as long as town shield work
Read the book! Thufir was in Arakeen when the attack occurred. 50 legions landed when they expected 15.!
@@passivehouseaustralia4406 so than clip used wrong numbers too
The (suicide) raid on the Harkonnen spice reserves is before the attack on the city. If I recall it was retaliation for the assassination attempt on Paul?
Jessica must have seen a possible future wherein disobeying the Order and conceiving a son was serving the Hand of Fate.
The Duke accepted the Emperor's assignment, not that he could refuse, trusting that Jessica would say 'nay' if it were a trap.
In the same way she knew to bear a Son, she knew to not warn her Duke.
That's a long-winded way of saying the Dukes' plan was to lay his neck on the block, as ordered.