What Is…A Shoto?
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- Опубликовано: 20 сен 2024
- #shoto #SmashUltimate
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This is the "is a hot dog a sandwich" question of the FGC lol
It is, honestly.
You aren’t wrong
*The real questions are being asked*
A hot dog is a sideways sandwich imo
OMFG LoL Fucking Nailed it.
I read a post that said: "The smash community calling all fighting games' reps Shotos is the equivalent of your mother calling all videogames Nintendos"
An I couldn't agree more
Can we keep doing it if it's funny?
Back before E3 2019, I recall some people saying that Erdrick/Luminary from Dragon Quest would just be a generic anime swordfighter and it took a bit of time to see if those remarks would come to fruition.
But when I saw some people saying that Terry was just "Ken with a hat" before his showcase, I already knew they were wrong.
@@chaotickreg7024 no because its the equivalent of a kid screaming of not knowing how to read an that it sullied your pants, it's "funny" in the sense that everyone will buly and mock said kid for the rest of their lives for being stunted mentally and saying dense things, you dont want people laughing at you like that, kid
At the end of the day, nobody is right or wrong regarding this stupid and childish subject. It's just fun to discuss game mechanics. If the smash community comprehend "shotos" as the main characters from a fighting game franchise, so be it
This
What Heihachi was thinking when he threw Kazuya off the cliff: “If he’s a Shoto, he’ll shuryuken himself back up.”
* Thunder god fist to the top of the cliff *
"I can come back from this!"
"Shuryuken."
*Wave dashes up volcano*
Heihachi: My god!? El Diablo
"Kazuya might be in smash someday, so I'll give him experience being thrown off a cliff."
"Shury you can!"
You know what's funnier? As someone who's actually a shotokan karate fighter, I can tell you that the character that most resembles real life shotokan is actually Makoto, who is technically not a shoto by definition.
Go figure.
Mattheus, can you do an EX Shoryken - FADC - Metsu Hadoken?
@June Shotokan Karate is the original style of karate, founded in Okinawa by the karate master Funakoshi. There are other styles like Kyokushin, that resembles a bit more Jin Kazama and Kazuya Mishima from Tekken, but yes, Shotokan is very real.
@@TonyTarantula No, and neither can Makoto lol
@@TonyTarantula otherwise known as the UmeShoryu
huh... how ironic.
Maybe a Shoto are the friends we made along the way.
found the band kid, get em' boys
Checkmate lol 😂 😂
*Slightly bows in recognition of this comment. lol
Oh you don't know? The real shoto was inside you all along!
Lmao
“What is a Shoto?”
Ya know… it’s that guy.
Okay, "BokuNoHeroAcaFan67" 😂
SHOTOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
Well we know what a “shota” is that’s for sure.
Ken: “You’re not that guy. Trust me, you’re not that guy.”
Kazuya: “Okay. And you are?”
Ryu: “Absolutely.”
And that guy?
Ryu, from Streets.
I'm not even a fighting game guy and "Is Mario a Shoto?" _still_ feels like a cursed question to me.
Short hop dair is a pseudo tatsu
Neutral b
Up b
There’s an argument there but it’s mostly a meme
@@jasonduhela9597 In Luigi's case, what about the green missile? Does that count as a Tatsu?
yo luigi is definitely a shoto
no room for debate there
I mean damn he kinda is
@@SenshuRysakami Luigi's down+B is a tatsu, the Luigi cyclone.
Alternate title: Max explains how Mario is a shoto in 18 minutes.
Funny but where’s his quasi-tatsu?🤔
@@MiguelDLewis In 64 and melee it's his down+B, in brawl onwards it's his down aerial.
@@MiguelDLewis down-B
@@GameGod77 Why of course, how could I forget? That's his bread and butter XD
@@MiguelDLewis doctor mario
Internet: "he punches and kicks and he's from a japanese fighting game, guess they added another shoto"
Max: "You can't even begin to understand the history, significance, and gravity of that word let alone the variations and correct applicaple usages"
He is a true Fighting game historian
im gonna say the S word.
Okay, here's what happened: Smash terminology developed independently of the FGC history of the 'shoto' term.
When Ryu/Ken were released, they were called shotos for all the traditional, historical FGC reasons.
Once Terry was added, he was close enough to Smash Ryu/Ken (fireball, uppercut/spinning kick, auto-turnaround, AND having command inputs in addition to normal Smash controls) to also be called a shoto.
Kazuya has now expanded the Smash 'shoto' term to be a trad fighting game character with command inputs and auto-turnaround. THESE TWO parts superceded the specific movesets to use 'shoto' as a way to identify characters with non-traditional movesets (Inkling doesn't count here because lack of auto-turnaround and command inputs outweigh Shield+B).
In short, Ridley is not a spacie.
@@adbee621 🤣🤣 ok buddy.
@@adbee621 terry's spinning kick doesn't work like Ryu or Ken's tho. Neither does his uppercuts.
I love the concept of Mario being a shoto lol
Me not being an SF player, when I saw Mario first get his Final Smash in Brwl I thought it was him basically getting the hadoken.
he is a shoto in dong dong never die tho
Yeah Mario a Shoto and Luigi is too
Smash player here. Luigi is more like a shoto than mario, because luigi's fireball doesn't have gravity, he has a rising uppercut, and he has tornado which can move
Mario is a shoto if you go play dong dong never die
Smash fans complain about shotos, then go on to play Mario who literally has a fireball, a spinning attack that keeps you in the air, and a jumping uppercut.
Mario’s spinning attack doesn’t actually keep him in the air, it’s just a move he can use in the air. Dr. Mario and Luigi though
I was literally about to say the same thing, then I saw your comment. Big ups my guy.
Then again, Mario, Luigi and Doc have similar concept moves and follow the shoto variance trend much like Ryu, Ken and Akuma do.
Gameplaywise they're much closer to a shoto than Kazuya, Jin and Heihachi are (they're their own thing, the Mishimas)
@@hecetewest5411 you must have not played ssb64 and melee haha Mario and Luigi were both very obviously intended to mimic ryu and Ken with their 3 original specials. And mario tornado can lift Mario up if mashed, even aiding with recovery. FLUDD was added in Brawl cuz the devs wanted something from Sunshine in the moveset I guess
@@hecetewest5411 only since they gave him the FLUDD. It was pretty clear when Sakurai made Smash64 he was paying homage to shotos with Mario's moveset.
Shows Mario
"Is he a Shoto?"
Me: "Wait... change him to fireflower colors"
Mario and Luigi are both shotos I'm not letting this go
I mean.. they don't have a Tatsu..
But they *do* spin attack
Mario and Luigi both had (have) a spin attack in melee that moves them forward caled (X) Tornado. Definitely a Tatsu. Those attacks were later changed to FLUDD
@@AngelLozadaBlindNun Luigi still has his. Luigi is still a shoto
@@Logos_Loki Haha ha I was actually talking about how in context of Melee is from the past but we still played in the future
I wouldn't mind a mini series going over every fighting game character archetype and the history related to them.
I wanna see grapplers next
@@chu-pay megaman is a grappler
Yea I'm on board with this
That’d be amazing
Nice idea@@chu-pay
If the definition of shoto is “the main character”, then 70% of the Smash cast are shotos
on the other hand SVC Chaos is literally Shoto: The Fighting Game
the main character of a fighting game, he's talking about fighting games specifically.
Well there is a bunch of characters that are the main character of their franchise, but only Mario is the main character of smash.
That would also make Alex a shoto in SF III because he's the main character.
TIL Pikachu is a shoto.
"Hello, I'm Sagat. And I *conveniently* murdered Dan's father."
Dan's dad still pulled out his Eye
@Whitenoise 00
It made it more convenient.
I was dying when he said "Is that shoto" and pulls up a pic of mario
Where I lost it was the MK Ninja rainbow bit
i cannot wait for sakurai’s presentation next week where he just casually says “kazuya is not a shoto” and then IMMEDIATELY moves on
O I would love that...you have no idea lol
I’d love he just opens it up with “He sorta looks like Ryu! But he is not a shoto. Anyways-“
I want this so bad
I can totally see him mentioning it and people loosing it thinking he knew about this argument lol
Fun fact about Ryu, Ken, and Makoto. Ryu and Ken don't actually use Shotokan Karate, that was just something the localization team came up with. As a little joke, Capcom made Makoto. She actually uses Shotokan Karate and they intentionally made her look like Ryu to poke fun at the incorrect localization.
Man thats interresinting✌🏾
Makoto uses Rindokan Karate, I thought?
@@LowTierDio Yeah, but that was heavily influenced by Shotokan the same way Ryu and Ken’s style was heavily influenced by Kyokushin Karate…at least for the normal moves.
Then by your definition, the Kyokugen guys (Art of Fighting, KOF series) aren't shoto as their moveset was inspired by Kyokushin in the first place. 🤯
@@bacj9868 Nope. Honestly, as catchy as the term “shoto” is, it’s not really all that applicable.
Max really gave me the thought, “Mario is a shoto,” and I can’t stop laughing lol
Well I thought for a long time that shotos was what they call main protagonist characters in fighting games.
Let me tell you of a game called
_Dong Dong Never Die_
@@kylewood4488-b9r No that is false because Mario IS a Shoto and he’s not a fighting game character.
@@phlixcarbon In smash, everyone is a fighting game character. But mario started as a platformer one.
He basically was in Smash 64 when he didnt have FLUDD replacing his tatsulike move.
"How close is the character to Ryu in terms of moveset and gameplay" is the question that should be asked. Ryu is the definitive Shoto, so it's much easier to class others as Shotos by using him as the point of comparison.
So then, in terms of smash, Kazuya is definitely a Shoto. His similarities to Ryu is far closer than Kazuya to anyone else in the cast.
Damn, this might be the best definition of a shoto, at least to me
@@trunnellstaverntales6228
Terry is closer to being a shoto (frankly, he kinda is a Shoto save for that Charge motion and Power Wave not being a traditional fireball) that Kazuya. The only thing he has is the look, and that is irrelevant as far as Archetype classification goes.
@@espurrseyes42 the definition for Shoto in smash seems to most accurately be "Input character with an auto turn around".
@@trunnellstaverntales6228
Shoto is already an established fighting game term, and even if that's the term you want to go with as a "Smash version", that's all they share. Kazuya doesn't use his inputs in the same way Ryu, Ken, and even Terry do, having numerous extra normals outside the usual, a special Dash, and numerous specials that can ONLY be done with inputs (including a command grab) whereas the Shoto Bois and Cousin Terry's Inputs are for stronger versions of their existing Specials and one or 2 Input Exclusive moves. Kazuya and the Shotos (and Terry) function distinctly different from each other despite using similar gimmicks, and to refer to him as a Shoto would imply that he does play like them, which is misinformation. That'd be like calling Guile a Shoto because he has a fireball and a DP, completely ignoring the fact that he executes his moves differently and has to play the game differently from Ryu.
This is just a overly complicated way for smash fans to say, “Stop adding fighting game characters to my crossover fighting game”
I have come to the realization that smash fans do not respond kindly when fighting game characters, sword characters, characters who remind them of anime or characters who don’t have a super strong history with Nintendo, so I have personally contacted Sakurai and together we have come to the conclusion that the only character that makes sense to end on is Sol Badguy, thank you for coming to my ted talk
"Stop adding fighting game characters. Now whens that next Fire Emblem dlc?" lol
What's funny to me is that there's only three fighting game characters in the roster. Four, if we count Ken.
No joke they get mad when you don't call smash a fighting game but get mad when Nintendo adds high profile fighting game characters to it.
@@Redxan600 yeah the only thing I can nitpick there is that I'd rather have Akuma than Ken, other than that I love these characters, even if I can only play terry
@@Redxan600 Uh, Arms is a fighting game too, so Min-Min would be another fighting game character.
It does suck that Smashers referred to the Fighting game characters in Smash “shotos” because the auto-turnaround does make them a legitimate archetype, they just decided to give it an existing name.
Yep
Well really the same term could be used to describe different things
@@rando9556 or you could make a new name so that confusion like this doesn’t happen
Many people in the FGC do the exact same thing.
@@issabino9903 *coughs in Fuzzy*
He's a shoto, youre a shoto, im a shoto, everybody is a shoto.
Are there any other Shotos i should know about?
Meow
He she we…..shoto
Oops! All Shotos!
@@thesupernintendokid4012 Hadouken!
The fact that Gouken, Ryu and Ken's sensei, is not a shoto is just hilarious.
He is a shoto-like tho
@@devils_kin0449 Gouken is a completely different character than Ryu and Ken. The way he works is not even close to a shoto.
@@elcreyo Hang on....how is Gouken not a shoto? Yeah I agree he plays very differently but he still has the base fundamentals for being a shoto.
He has a Shoryuken, a Hadoken, A Hurricane Kick, and even his atire is very similar to Ryu and Ken.
If Gouken isn't a shoto, doesn't that mean Sakura, Akuma, and Dan aren't shotos?
Laughed a little too hard when he showed the mortal kombat ninjas. “Are these shotos”
*Pulls up DBFZ SS Goku and SS Vegeta* are THESE shotos?
@@DX5555555 gi = check
Ranged projectile with the hadoken stance = check
Super uppercut = check
Spinning kick = not check
Goku is definitely mostly Shoto, but not 100%. So depending on your metric he either mostly is or simply isn't.
"He does not have a Gi"
I guess we know what Sagat's next DLC costume gonna be.
Lol it won’t work cuz Muay Thai doesn’t use Gis
@@benjaminvo1872 Technically, Muay Thai also doesn't involve shooting fire from your fists.
@@ryanm.8720 You must be learning the wrong Muay Thai
@@ryanm.8720 no martial arts use pyrokinesis
@@NirodimosNeedAKing you ever seen avatar?
Luigi is a shoto. He has a fireball, spin-attack and an uppercut.
So does mario
@@fordgt5383 Mario doesn’t have the spin anymore since Brawl, unless you count the down air
@@thedapperdolphin1590 dr. Mario is a shoto
@@thedapperdolphin1590 dair exists
I would put both the Mario Bros in the shoto tier.
As a professional Shoto with a masters degree in Shotology, I can confirm Max's Shoto analyzation is true.
I was going to major in shotology but I accidentally mixed it up with uh... something else.
Holy "Shotopedia".
In conclusion:
Kazuya is not a shoto and Eddy Gordo is a backup dancer
Lucky Chloe: And He Will wear that cute dress
underrated
@@anthonygerardotorresgonzal6269
"Fuck you Chloe!"
Said Kenny.
Brenda: I mean that shit is nasty!
Eddy Guerrero
So Luigi's a Shoto. Just everyone afraid to Admit it lol
Ive been saying this for years but everyone looks at me like im crazy.
I came to that realization the moment he was brought up. Heck it could potentially be argued that Dr. Mario and Melee Mario are shotos
Mario and Luigi (more so in melee) were smash shotos, both have a ranged option an advancing move and an uppercut
Game History with Maximillian. Should have a whole playlist about it.
Honestly
Damn, I thought "Shoto" was just the name for the all-rounder/balanced archetype.
For me a Shoto is
- Dragon Punch
- Fireball
- Tatsu
- Can feature the staple design but not limited
- Average height, build, reach (obviously they’re ripped lmao but in terms of other fighters)
Sagat takes up way too much of the screen and his fireballs/tatsus aren’t standard to other Shotos
For me this is how a pure shoto is like
- Horizontal Fireball
- Has a reversal (doesn't have to look like an uppercut, has invincibility)
- the reversal is not a charge move, bonus points if the move is done with a DP motion.
- Bonus points if the reversal moves upwards but doesn't have to
- bonus points if they have a special move that moves them forward and is airborne
More bonus points if:
- They are an all rounder
- Has "footsies" kind of normals
- Simple gameplan, somewhat limited offense options
- You can pretend you are playing Ryu and you will do fine with pure fundamentals even if you are completely new to the game
@Connie Ford not in fighting game standards
@Connie Ford saying shoto means anyone that uses shoto karate isn't a actual definition. people define characters based on playstyle and their "goal" when playing, so you can't call them something based on a fighting style(which would only be animations in the game) when their play styles could be complete oppisites. so no. you cant just say "shotokan karate" and call it a day
That could be true. However we have characters like Dan who has bad frames, but is still a shoto when it comes to gameplan.
For me what defines a shoto is
1. Inputs, usually when they're not a charge character and not a grappler character
2. Gameplan
Max just blew the minds of so many people by pointing out how Mario is more of a Shoto than Kazuya.
Naah, not really. If that kind of definition is centered around on the idea of the "main character" in a fighting game, then yes, it's a definition that could exemplify Kazuya. He looks like the main character, he has a uppercut, a tatsu of some kind, etc.. he just don't have the fireball because of the 3d nature of tekken, but you can be sure, if the devs at the time could implement fireballs in a satisfactory way, Kazuya would most definitely look and play like Ryu
@@RRRRRRRRR33 Tekken 1 and Tekken 2 were 2D fighting games with 3D graphics
@@GVirusG with 3d space
@@crazydiamond3403 absolutely correct
@@RRRRRRRRR33 What about Dan Hibiki? He isn't main character, but he is Shoto.
Shoto designed as beginners characters in the game. Kazuya isn't the one. He is the hardest characters in the Tekken. Throughout the series, Kazuya's moves have some lag if not some very unhealthy frame data on whiff or block, limiting his arsenal of safe pokes and panic moves.
"You could look like Owen fucking Wilson" damn looks like Max is a shoto
*Wow*
@@brotherpanda
Wow, that's a huge snake.
Bruh, I died when he went "Isn't that guy a shoto?" and pulled up Mario. Omg..
Was he wrong ? Luigi my boy is a shoto too. Is chun li a shoto?
He doesn't spin kick, but he does spin
Mario definitely was in Smash 64. Later on, he lost that when he traded his Tornado for FLUDD. Luigi and Doctor Mario fit the mold.
And it makes sense. Sakurai made Mister Nintendo the shoto of his fighting game. Plus, Mario already had most of those moves, with the fireball and jumping into things (like he does to blocks).
@@MrDrProfessorSir962 luigi is a grappler actually
The moment you realize Mario was the original shoto
Luigi is definitely some form of a shoto, especially in brawl. He has a fireball, he has a spin move with cyclone (and in brawl, it is significantly faster on the ground for approaching), and he has an uppercut.
But I’m all seriousness, it’s definitely an interesting topic to discuss but I feel has become more of a “is a soup a cereal?” argument
Cereal is a soup, not reverse
**raises hand**
"Is Mayonnaise a Shoto?"
No, JahJab...The Mayonnaise isn't a Shoto?
@@anthonygerardotorresgonzal6269 Horse Radish is not a shoto either.
Is this the part where we start (hurricane) kicking?
@@Wolfedge75 sure you can
no mayonnaise is a mishima
Knowing that Sakurai is a fighting game fan, it's really clear to me that he designed Mario and Luigi to be Ryu and Ken of Smash 64. They only have 3 specials: a fireball, a spinning move, a jumping uppercut. Luigi's spin is a multi-hit, his fireballs have different properties, and his uppercut is stronger. Things evolved as specials were added and changed, but in smash 64 they are absolutely shotos
No, in 64 Mario was the multihit with his uppercut *and* spin. Luigi was single hit in both, with early hit uppercut being an almost insta-kill. I think it's kinda clever, Mario being closer to Ken in that way and Luigi to Ryu.
Best part of the stream was everyone in chat asking "Is ____ a shoto?" and Max answering them for 30 minutes.
If you put the Fire materia on Tifa, is she a shoto? 🤣
@@TheDwarvenDefender asking the real questions lol
Did that happen? Lmao, poor Max.
Link lol
10:13 well technically Dan was created to mock ALL of SNK not just ryo, more specifically it mocked Robert (face) Ryo (Body and gi design) and Yuri (pink was her original color, her victory pose was literally ripped off by dan and her fire ball is exactly the same as dan's)
I feel like I remember Dan and Robert share a move too... It wasn't that kick move he has instead of tatsu is it? It's been a while since I played an SNK game, but I feel like I remember noticing that... Might have been Ryo... I need to play some KoF again or something...
Imagine when smash fans learn that Pokemon Trainer is a stance character.
Aren't't Pyra/Mythra also a stance character then? As well as Zelda up to Brawl?
Wouldn't that be Shulk or Min Min?
I mean, kinda, but your "stances" changes absolutely everything, so it's more like a tag than a stance character.
@@fernandobanda5734 Shulk and Min-Min are weird. I want to call them "gimmick characters" because Shulk's whole gameplan is centered around the Monado and flipping his stats around to the situation similar to Min-Min changing her ARMS if she wants extra range, power, or comboablity.
Yeah I know damn near every Smash character has their gimmick or trick, but unlike Pyra/Mythra, Zelda/Sheik, and Pokemon Trainer, who would be the stance characters of the Smash series with varied moves between each character, Shulk and Min-Min's movesets don't change at all when they switch things up, only their stats.
@@HoodWeegee That's fair, but "gimmick" is an incredibly generic term. Min Min changes a bit more than Shulk (for example, Ram Ram has a different hitbox vertical range while Dragon shoots a laser) but I agree that the essence of the attacks is the same.
@@fernandobanda5734 I wish there was a better term for it rather than "gimmick character" because in some games, like Smash, EVERYONE has a gimmick. But that's been the only term I've found for those type of characters that center around a certain feature only they have on the roster and are essentially playing by their own rules.
"We trained Sean wrong as a shoto...on purpose."
I think they were just more scared they made him too strong in 2nd Impact and backpedaled. Haha
@@onceuponagamemaster1588 I think I agree. I don't think Sean was necessarily meant to be bad, but I think that they went really far overboard on nerfs going from 2nd Impact to 3rd Strike. More Capcom over nerfing Sean by accident to me than trying to make Sean bad on purpose imo.
We can appreciate his face to foot style. *squeak squeak*
I almost had tea go through my nose, you dick.
@@CHAOSKlNG I'm more a fan of the nuts to fist style. Clearly more effective.
Really surprised Max didn't bring up Jago at all. Totally the KI shoto.
It was mentioned in passing on stream. He said most of the characters in the original KI would be considered shotos
Oh snaps! Jago is a shoto too!!
@@legendaryhero90 Both Jago and Fulgore
He did, he talks alot more in the actual stream, they're also not shotos Fulgore and Jago only have uppercuts and fireballs not tatsus
Jago is 100% a shoto
my favorite thing about this is that the smashers like me who play fighting games broke it down as to why Kazuya isn’t a shoto and the immediate response from the other smashers that don’t was literally “we know he isn’t. we just don’t wanna call him by his name”
Smash being such a different fighting game should be allowed to have its own definition of shoto, idk if he auto turnarounds and has rewarding inputs he's a shoto
That's the most annoying part they know their wrong but simply don't care
@@toastadasd8578 it should have a different name so people that call shoto's by their movelist don't get confused
@@toastadasd8578 or you guys can just...use different terms altogether.....
@@toastadasd8578 meanwhile in an alternate universe.
"Smash being such a different fighting game should have its own definition of a Korean backdash, idk like jumping then immediately air dodging towards the ground to get better movement and offensive tools."
Now I Need a VideoCalled
"What is a Faust or What is a Yoshimitsu"
They land in the unorthodox archetype, as far as I know. The weird kid of fighting game characters.
what exactly is a Faust
i know who the character is but what is he
NAMU
NAMU
NAMU
NAMU
NAMU
@@41tinman41 so basically like Game & Watch too
@@brentsta Honestly, Guilty Gear lore is bonkers. You can find an hour long breakdown on one character alone.
I’ve heard “shoto” so much these past few days that it’s not even a real word anymore.
All I’ve gotta say is that yes, Mario, Luigi, and Dr. Mario are shotos.
I think a shoto needs to have 2/3 of those ryu moves.
This adds chun li, sagat, terry, takuma, and many more.
@@RetroPillowcase wouldn't the "Yahoo" qualify as a tastu?
@@AngrySonMetaphist yeah. mario's dair and luigi's/dr. mario down-b are tatsus.
Kazuya already has a term for his archetype. It’s Mishima, clue is in his name to be fair
Spot on. Just like Shotos, Mishimas are already their own. Generally, Jin is considered by many as a "Mishima" because of his EWGF and Hellsweep, which are two distinct moves associated with the archetype.
When actual FGC fans speak and not Smash-tards 👍
Mishimas are to Tekken what Shotos are to Street Fighter, right?
@@TheEduardoAlex I know why they did it, but it's weird that the archetype is named after a certain family but there are characters in that family that aren't part of the archetype.
The same goes for kazamas too
one thing that might contribute is the fact that in smash; ryu, ken, terry and kazuya share the auto-turnaround mechanic to emulate the games they are from. Since ryu and ken represented the posterchildren of this mechanic for all of sm4sh and much of ultimate, meaning people would lazily call terry a shoto cause he shares a defining characteristic of the actual shotos. There's also the fact that because of how these four characters are designed, they end up playing quite differently to the rest of the smash cast, especially when it comes to combos and how you execute them. In this way, one could argue that in the smash dictionary, a shoto is a character with auto-turnaround, special inputs, special cancelling and other features that replicate the experience of a traditional 2d fighter, which makes them feel like a whole genre of character. The name shoto only remains because that is how people refer to the pair from street fighter, who were the originals.
or maybe the FGC is *awful* at giving things consistent names that make sense. IDK.
*SLAMS jeopardy button*
Me: What is… what Low Tier God hates?!
Sorry, answers in the form of question. What _is_ what LowTierGod hates?
Preach!!!
Sorry, that's the question for "Everyone who is better than him, both as a player and a human being (a.k.a. Everyone)" It was a long answer, so I get the confusion.
@@SonofTiamat my mistake! Fixed :)
gtab
Just a bit of info on the origin of “shoto”, it does come from Shotokan Karate, despite that those characters use a made up martial art called Ansatsuken (assassins fist). It got popularized that it was shotokan for some reason (comic adaptations I believe, got this wrong and it endured lore wasn’t really consistent in the 90s). The closest thing to real Shotokan Karate in SF is what Makoto uses, and it’s still closer to Gojuryu Karate than shotokan.
The reason for the Shotokan misconception: incorrect info/translations in international versions of SF II. It actually came from the game.
Ansatsuken sounds like a ninja martial art. Assassins Fist
@@mindwarp42 It's the same reason for the infamous Sheng Long hoax, which resulted in Akuma and Gouken.
Capcom USA thought kids would be confused by ansatsuken and changed Ryu/Ken's style to shotokan.
So THAT'S why my sensei never taught me how to throw a fireball...
I'm a Smash player and a FGC member of other games. Explaining what a shoto is to people usually connects it for them, but I don't have the energy to explain it to every single person who makes the assumptions just using terms they've heard on the internet.
I appreciate this video so much and will definitely share it with others who aren't familiar with what the term really means.
@Beats Beats Because idiocy is bad and knowledge is good. Living principals is difficult, but having community resources like this video specifically targeted at this kind of question makes things easier.
@Beats Beats Because know is power, and you know who has a lot of power? Top tiers!
@@Thalanox Just because it provides you with knowledge doesn't means it suddenly matters. You can gain knowledge from anything, but everything can't be important
@Succulent Boi Either way, having knowledge will always be better that not because it will become important eventually depending on the situation. And I can't think of a knowledge that couldn't potentially be useful.
To folks commenting on why it matters: It's just about helping people understand what they're talking about.
Imagine having a conversation with someone where they say, "I love driving a Mustang; it's my favorite type of SUV." If you were someone who knew what a Mustang was, you'd acknowledge that statement as confusing and try to clarify. "A Mustang isn't an SUV. Did you mean to name a different brand or did you mean to say car?"
It's for clarity and for helping others be accurate. My example is mild, but the same thing could be said about a medical procedure, or a law, or anything more important.
I was under the impression it meant the "all-rounder" character relative to each game. By the definition presented here a game with no projectiles can absolutely not contain a shoto no matter how much karate gi and allroundedness a guy might have
Same.
well luckily now you know.
Yeah a character that shows gameplay elements from there serious and was a all rounder char with no defined weak points
Yeah, which is why kazuya and stuff are called mishima's
@@ashtar3876 Mishimas are just characters with 3 defining things, god fist, wave dash, a flash punch combo.
21xx
-Potemkin *gets into smash*
-Smash boy: "lol another shoto"
Triggered
Dam bro you got the whole squad laughing
Sol would be rad
lol
Potemkin in smash you say...
Tune in next time on "FGC History with Max" to see the next hot topic:
*_What is a Grappler?_*
What is a stance ?
What is a Zoner?
What is rushdown ?
What the hell is Faust?
@@JoJailo "Hey Hit, can you comment on the matter"
I believe a shoto is broken down by these factors.
1) has a fireball, whatever the variation
2) has a move that attacks moving forward.
3) has a special move to anti-air
4) none of the moves are charge motion.
5) Attacks are balanced in speed and power.
visual style has nothing to do with it.
I think it's simpler than that, a shoto is someone with a Shoryuken and Hadouken. So yeah, Luigi.
@@Christian-rn1ur You are forgetting, luigi has a move that attacks while moving forward, his rapid punch while running. He is a shoto, more than you know.
I love how you simplified a lot of Maximilian’s requirement for a shoto just to fit some bullshit you already believed in. I seriously hope you’re joking with that horrible, dogshit definition of a shoto
this... is a REALLY loose definition. like i can see where you're coming from but i respectfully disagree.
@@cdose I disagree with Max on some factors based on my definition. Sagat is a shoto. Max did a lot of emphasis on appearance as a shoto factor, i disagree with this.
If you read and understood what was written, you would already know this. Instead of you go out of you way with nasty comments. This will be my last reply to you.
everyone always ask "what is shoto," nobody ever ask "how is shoto." :(
I’ve heard the word “Shoto” so much in the last twenty minutes it doesn’t even sound like a word anymore lmao
“Why is Smash Bros. getting so many fighting game characters?”
It's pretending to be a fighting game.
It'd be awesome if Smash was good 🤷🏻♂️
@@damionbaxter4912 exactly lol
Who cares? I’m enjoying it either way
So many fighting game characters XD bro 4 out 75 are 5,33% an that’s not many
A shoto is he who struggles against the Satsui no Hado.
So Akuma isn't a Shoto?
@@anthonygerardotorresgonzal6269 Akuma embraced the Satsui no Hado bruv.
@@Lolololololololololo123 he fully embraces it in sf4 as the "what if" character Oni.
Luigi is a shoto, got it
@@matheusvasiliauskassoares4361 always has been, I mean have you looked at the dude? He breathes the Satsui no hado
I usually look at two main things when considering that a character is a shoto. The moves of the character (DP, fireball and tatsu) but also the type of inputs. The overall look of the character is a bonus.
TLDR:
Ken and Ryu are shotos.
Terry and Kazuya are NOT.
Can someone tell me how this topic came about?
sub-zero is a shoto too
@@Slimerson93 smash players being retards
Terry is also a shoto wtf do you mean????
@@Xenoblade_Natsu did you watch the video
I swear he was gonna show Jago as a Shoto, because he has the exact characteristic of a shoto, but his tatsu works kinda different, AND he has a sword.
Was kind of hoping he'd show Gran from Granblue Fantasy Versus. His tatsu works a bit different as well, but the character plays very much like Ken Masters.
Fulgore's pretty much a shoto too, except his tatsu is chargeable and he has a teleport
That’s Max’s opinion. Having a ryu fireball/DP would definitely qualify Jago/SJago as a shoto, sword or no sword. It’s all about the inputs.
I gues he didnt want to go too deep into the topic, just a quick chat
Yeah, I'd agree that he's very Shoto-inspired, not only through his mechanics, but also as a main character of the KI series.
The best example of strange looking shoto is Morrigan.
True
And Dimitri bar the tatsu, if we ignore the drill kick
Fullgore
@@A.LeMayo havent heard that name in years
Damn
New drinking game: drink every time Max says “shoto”.
Or Drink everytime When They Joke about Dinking Games. Now Drink.
Hear a shoto, take a shot oh
When your stomach turns inside out from all the shots, remember to try saying Tatsumaki Senpukyaku
Ryu and Ken - YES!
Terry and Kazuya - NO!
Terry is a shoto. Anti Aerial, fireball , and a rush down
@@ThaShogun
Did you even saw the video???
@@ThaShogun
Ryo Sakazaki and Robert Garcia
are the SNK’s shotos, not Terry.
I watched it but I disagree about it seeing as he has the three elements. But then again I see Sagat is borderline shoto also and Ryu/Kens master considered a shoto on SFIV by a majority of players
@@ThaShogun
Well im letting you know KOF has shotos, Ryo and Robert, also Yuri as hybrid.
Makoto is not a shoto, she's a shotokan practitioner. Same goes for Lidia.
So a literal shoto
@@ghosttactician403 A real life shoto
"he's not a karateka he just practices karate"
(She's not a "shoto" tho)
As is Sub Zero during the 3D era
That's right
Why am I imagining endeavor yelling “SHOTO”
You're not alone.
Mechanically: a projectile, an anti-air/reversal move, and a move that carries you forward and ignores projectiles.
Did you ever realize that in Smash, Mega Man is a Shoto tho? He’s got a fireball, he’s got a Shoryuken, and he has a tatsu.
Megaman is a capcom character so no surprise.
Same for Marvel vs Capcom 2
He was shoto since Megaman X he got fireball then the uppercut in the next game. After that Zero kinda too over those roles while X was standard buster.
@@ExeErdna Oh of course X is a Shoto. No debate there. But only in Smash is this there a case for “Rock” Mega Man
Mega Man has a thousand of fireballs and projectiles, it's 70% of his attacks, he's more of a zoner.
Everyone who has played or watched YVG play *_Dong Dong Never Die_* knows that Mario is indeed a shoto.
And he has a Raging Demon
ROFL I forgot about that video. I'm gonna go watch it right now! XD
And then Guilty Gear comes in and is like:
"Yeah we got shotos but one of em is a femboy with a sword and another one is a rushdown is disguise with a command grab"
I want to main the second one
Technically, sol and ky are the shotos on GG, but sol has a rush down kick, and ky does not have a tatsu at all, but they are ruled by shoto gameplay gimmicks!
@@Shimazaki00 Eh? Ky doesn't have a Tatsu? You forget about Stun Dipper? Sliding kick across the screen to close the distance while also attacking at the same time?
@@Havic101-atc pretty sure a tatsu also has to be usable lol
The definition of the second one also applies to Iori
Makoto is the gritty, realistic Shoto reboot where they go back and make it actually faithful to the Karate it derives its name from.
The proto-shoto?
A character with a fireball, Dragon Punch, and a counter to most projectiles.
Could you please elaborate on "a counter to most projectiles"?
@@Derpbeard Tatsus, for example, go through projectiles
So Mario is a Shoto since he has a fireball, a super jump punch, and his cape counters projectiles.
@@CrypticNazo yes
@@CrypticNazo I'd call him one
"What is a Shoto?"
Its a miserable pile of.....pile
But enough talk,
_HADOKEN_
This puts a smile on my face
I now need a MUGEN edit of Ken that says "Wow" with every DP.
Why could I *totally* see an out of touch clueless American film executive want to make a Street Fighter movie with Owen Wilson as Ken lmao
You're tempting fate, here.
Max is so good at articulating how popular tropes permeate through various Fighting Game series and influence future titles. These 'deep dive' style videos (though this particular video could probably be described more as a dipping your toe in the ocean) are my favourite that Max does. This, and 'GIT GUD'. I WORSHIP sCrUbLoRd
I feel like I learned nothing and everything at the same time.
To me a shoto refers to a playstyle rather than just a character type. I use it to help understand characters.
A shoto in that respect is:
Someone who possesses a fireball, an uppercut, and a 'tatsu' spin and uses them for a variable combat style with many options.
Sean is a shoto in the same way Jago from KI could be called one. He has the tools but they are presented in a different style, often to distinguish them from other similar characters.
Sagat on the other hand isn't because while he has many similar options, they are used and behave significantly differently.
Shotos have a particular feel at their core, a root combat approach that is clear as you play them. They may have added or altered moves but you feel it as you use them to fight your opponent and learn their options.
To further this explanation the way I see it is a character with core basics that can be applied almost universally without being "the best" at any particular playstyle, a solid anti air, a general space keeping fire ball and an air link move to to take full advantage of a pop up. I think narrowing it down to the specifics makes it muddy and confusing, like what character these days doesnt have an uppercut of some kind? But theyre not shotos because the application is different its not just about smacking your opponent for jumping in its about actually punishing them for it and blowing them back, its not just a hadoken because that negates grounded fireballs despite a lot of them olaying in the same way but I wouldn't say a beam character falls intk the same category of a shotos playstyle, a shoto fireball should almost always be a way to force the opponent to either hold ground or retreat and a tatsu is really just a ground to air follow up to link your combos. Its why even though your Jins and Kazuyas dont fall into Shoto as a category your Sol badguys ands Johnny Cages could arguably fall into this style of play
@@v8bitecho Good point.
In a way the shoto is effectively the baseline character. They are the character designed to take advantage, at least a little bit, of all parts of the game.
Though I think the specifics help distinguish from stuff like charge characters. Specifically flash style characters like Guile.
I've always felt Sol is a brawler over a shoto though with his very in your face playstyle and command grabs. Ky might be a better example of a shoto in GG
Luigi
New drinking game: Take a shot every time Max says “Shoto.”
_(Please don’t actually do this, you will destroy your kidneys.)_
take a shoto?
@@arts1721 I both despise this comment and wish I had made it myself.
Is fireball a shoto? 😏👉
Bruh the smash fandom is exhausting lol. It’s unreal how many characters we have gotten. We are so blessed and they have no idea.
As someone who plays a TON of smash, it is kinda frustrating to see people get upset that (blank) character isn’t in the game, and “my character deserves to be in the game” or “it makes complete business and logical sense for my favorite character to be in this game.” Never mind most people don’t understand the hell of licensing and how difficult some companies are to work with.
That being said, I feel like that’s a consequence of having a wider install base and an extremely broad range of demographics. The VAST MAJORITY of people who have Smash are not competitive players. Most don’t know a competitive scene even exists. So I feel that the massive amount of people who doesn’t play competitive or watch competitive make Smash players like Myself look like I don’t understand anything other than “My Nintendos.”
I’d also liken when people don’t understand Smash Bros and it’s finer gameplay details but are sort of picking up the terminology and have a vague grasp of its ideas to being near people who speak a different language than you, and you are just trying to interpret what the hell these other people are saying.
Also: it’s super frustrating hearing people denounce Smash as something worth considering without understanding it at all. People who look at the Punching game with Mario and Pikachu and say “that’s stupid” and act like “WhAt ThE hElL iS a SeX KiCk?!? (Flying Kicks that weaken as time goes on) Or “wHaT’s a DaCuS?” (Dash attack Canceled Up-Smash) It just bugs me that the same people who say it’s dumb and stupid also know very little about it and are unwilling to listen and learn about it.
I quite enjoy smash. It's not a game I play competitively like some other fighting games, but it is fun to just play, and the kind of people who knock it without even trying it should try it. It's a very solid game with a hell of a roster. Smash is like getting a shot of liquid fun directly into you blood stream. It's really a good game to chill too if you play it casually.
However as a fighting game fan in general I do find the Smash community at times quite infuriating especially when they demonstrate their ignorance when it comes to other fighting games.
I mean seriously calling the likes of Kazuya, and Terry shotos, and so many people not knowing who Terry was. Maybe if they announced Akuma or Sakura but uhgg then you would have another Shoto, though Smash Akuma, or Sakura, even Dan would be interesting to see. As for me I am happy with Kazuya though I still main female Byleth, Sephiroth, and Peach.
@@manicpixie566 I get that. It sucks that lots of people don’t want to experience some new stuff. Different fighting games other than the one they’re used to. It’s not helped at all that many fighting games are
a) not on Nintendo Consoles (Guilty Gear, SF5, MvC, Tekken 7)
b) the ones that are have to deal with Nintendo Online. Which, PLEASE GOD NO.
I would love to give other games a chance (been watching loads of SF5, Strive, AC+R, DBFZ) and just Sajam, Kizzie Kay, HookGangGod, JWong, Max, Bafael, and so many more have broadened my understanding (if limited) of other fighting games.
Part of the issue is that people may have SOMETHING of an idea of what’s happening, but they don’t fully understand it. Like When Max explains what a Shoto is, and in other Vids doesn’t seem to understand how to do cool Smash Tech nor want to understand it.
The use of language is so important, and when you don’t have a good grasp of another dialect or language, their words might escape you. I’ve been in rooms with people that speak languages other than English, and it’s tough to my points across. So, I have to do things that those people could potentially understand. And when I learn words that others say, I may not initially know what they’re saying, but I will eventually pick it up slowly over time. Even as I make mistakes in understanding and delivering my own broken version of that dialect.
The two truths of the universe:
Fighting games are all shotos
Every nerf gun is a Jolt reskin
Every Nerf gun is a Jolt reskin yes.
my brief time being obssessed with nerf guns was all worth it to understand this joke
A reference only Tacticool people will get.
I really enjoyed this and would love some more “max teaches the world fighting game history and terminology” types of videos!
Same here
Amen!
My way of thinking about this is when a fighter typically “shows toes” then they are a shoto 😂
confirmed; Corrin is a shoto
zelda mains love shotos
xD
*exhales through nostril*
Shoe-toe
Really missed the opportunity to define Dan Hibiki as a "Shit-o"
Dan is cool though.
@@Plasmacat1 hes cool BECAUSE hes shit tho, like u have to be a shit to have an air taunt
a Shiti
As a smash player, the smash community in general is just embarrassing. This is yet another case of the smash community trying to sound legit and failing miserably.
It was a meme originally that the uninformed ran away with
Yeah but to be fair I don’t expect smash fans to know fighting game lingo and lore I just wish they respect the creators choices and the characters that make it in.
@@shemzlove490 The beauty is there is a spectrum of knowledge on each franchise added to Smash which allows us to expand that collective knowledge. I grew up playing Tekken 3 but I never played Dragon Quest. I'm open to learning about Hero and people like Max can explain FGC history. We're all learning together.
@@shemzlove490 It was never really about his inclusion though. It was the ridiculous mental gymnastics people went through trying to justify using the term shoto incorrectly.
People spent the entire day trying to convince the internet that a shoto was any character with combos, and when it didn't work they all collectively said, "Haha imagine caring about this at all touch le grass haha 😂" to shut down the conversation entirely.
The smash community gets a lot of hate that they don't deserve, but a lot of it is 100% justified.
I saw a guy saying fg characters bring no hype in Smash.
Dr. Mario i'd say is a shoto, he's got a fireball (the megavitamin), an anti-air uppercut, and a tatsu (Mario Tornado). Regular Mario doesn't have the Mario Tornado as a special move.
Not anymore, no.
That's interesting, because Dr. Mario's moveset is Mario's original moveset in 64. So Sakurai partially based Mario's moveset in Ryu/Ken's archetype? Ryu/Ken influence in fighting games designe is amazing when you start to pay attention.
@@leonardocerqueiradias6168 yeah og Mario in the 64 game was the closest to Shoto
@@Gerolanfalan His down B became his d-air but nerfed (no vertical height, no slowing your fall, is faster to finish, and generally less damage and knockback. That last point is a bit vague since it's been a while since I've played Smash 64).
tbh, Mario in Smash Ultimate is more like the Sol Badguy of Smash now. He used to be a clear shoto in like 64 and Melee.
The realization that Mario is a shoto just blew my mind
You said Mishima was it’s own type of character. I would like to see a video where you break down all the different classes and types of fighters in Tekken games and maybe trace their origins and inspirations.
Mishimas - Martial Arts Style + DORYA/Electric
King - Brawler
Hwoarang - Taekwondo
Xiaoyu and Lei - El Diablo
The fact that daddy Max takes the time to explain what a "Shoto" is; shows how much love he has for fighting games and the community.
You are a great man Maximilian Dood!
I always viewed "shotos" as a characters that has variations of a fireball, uppercut and a forward moving kick special move. The look of the character is not a factor.
Happy Sagat has enter the chat.
Yeah, was kinda confused about the Sagat debacle. His tiger knee isn't any more of a stretch than the other tatsu examples given.
I still count him as a shoto variant. There are so many characters like this in so many games.
This would absolutely qualify Terry as a shoto, and I sort of agree.
Does this Mean charizard is a shoto?
@@zakrilege3428 The fireball and dp are the important part
SF has the shotos, MK has the ninjas and TEKKEN has the mishimas xD
Its that easy
YES, it's as simple as that
Yep
Even tho in a lot of the games sub zero literally uses shotokan karate
@Kayden McCallum I know?
This video just blew my mind
It’s just because he’s a fighting game character. If we got someone like morrigan or nightmare, people would probably call them shotos too.
their upset smash gets called a fake fighting game get upset when too many fighting game characters show up do not want to use the terms for fighting game characters correctly
Morrigan is actually a shoto though lmao
@@doomtron4 true
The Ryo-Dan thing could be called "Shotoception."
I feel like I’m in Fighting 101 in high school. I’m doing Cornell notes over here
👀
I need a Max name pronunciation compilation 😭 this video was gold for the quality/info/and the pronunciations
Smash community: we're a fighting game not a party game!
Also Smash community: ugh not another fighting game character!
Like dude, Smash has like a ton of JRPG and Platforming characters, but only three FG’s. Like its a genre that NEEDS more.
Little Mac, Ryu/Ken, Terry, and Kazuya.
That's five.....FIVE whole characters from fighting games. Smash fanboys really know how to put their own foot in their mouth when they make complaints like this
And I still remember them complaining about fighting game inputs now being in Smash even though Sakurai literally did an ELI5 for Terry's more complicated motion for Power Geyser. The man taught you guys how to do it and y'all still complaining?
@@HoodWeegee I feel like if we’re including Little Mac, then we also need to include the Miis because of Wii Boxing
Bandai Namco making smash for a decade hit hard. It’s really been that long
Smash fans: What is a Shoto?
Max: *Pull up a chair, we're gonna be here awhile*
He said shoto so much that it no longer sounds like a real word, it doesn’t even sound like a human sound, it’s become some lovecraftian nightmare sound