Things Fighting Game Players Get Wrong About Smash
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- Опубликовано: 28 июн 2024
- #fightinggames #smashbros #guiltygear
We talked about what Smash players get wrong about traditional fighters, so today we are going to talk about what fighting game players get wrong about Smash.
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12:27 - chatting about the two scenes
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Игры
Lord knight is the youngest old guy I’ve ever seen
35 pushing 22
He's a handsome dude
Age brings wisdom!
@@63chicago6 A very handsome middle aged guy.
His skin is so good
Koopabackdashwaveslide hoverwalkmoonland is still the undisputed best tech name of all time
I had to re-read the whole name twice and sound it out in my head, just to fully mentally verify that it doesn’t actually contain any repeat words.
It _looks_ like it contains a repeat word, it _feels_ like it contains a repeat word, but it surprisingly does not repeat a single word.
Also, it could credibly be abbreviated as “KBDWSHWML” or, even better, “the KooBaDaWaS HoWaMAnd,” and I think that’s quite nice.
Fantastic name! 👌
@@deadfr0gRead the second one, thought "do any foreign swear words sound something like any of that?"
Funniest part about the koopbackdashwaveslide hoverwalkmoonland is that it's not difficult tech. At all. You just waveland and sliiiightly input a walk.
Diddy Kong's infinite was called the Pyramid Scheme
On the terminology point people often joke about smash terminology being weird and as a response smash players would make weird ass names intentionally as a joke. Theres a combo called the yoinky sploinky, theres a tech called doing the griddy, theres like 3 techs called the fortnite.
Well also sometimes the same term means completely different things in smash. Frame trap, meaty, and recovery for example.
also never forget the OG weird smash terminology: the Sex kick
Im pretty sure the yoinky sploinky is the name of a rivals of aether hodan combo but maybe someone in smash has a combo called that too. He also has another combo called the ray William Johnson and a tech called the mokecopter
don't even get us STARTED about the KBDWSHWML
What about Minecraft, is there any tech named after anything to do with Minecraft?
😏
I have never heard someone call Ryu’s Shoryuken the “Mama Mia!” until this video LMAO
i believe the guy who made the video was doing it as a joke but for all we know he just said that to cover his ass later
coming from a smash player, i only found out about "Mama mia" recently (and i was playing when it was "found")
i've been saying it completely ironically since
I think the part of the reason the "Smash doesn't have combos" stigma arised was because clips of non-true and practically blue-beat level sequences get lumped in with actual True Combo clips (we've all laughed at the "DK TOD vs Bowser on FD" meme) and just labeled under the same "Combo" umbrella when uploaded.
I've always wished some people would call the non-true combos "sequences" or something instead to make the distinction but tbf there's been a lot of Smash "combos" that turn out to just be not true after delving into the game for a while and vice versa because the games are silly (affectionate and derogatory)
There is a name. They're called strings
Combos in smash are kinda weird because, while there are also strings, a combo doesnt have to be "true", otherwise it would be called a "true combo". A combo includes 50/50s and frame traps and stuff that require a read but essentially still continue the combo as long as you guess right. Its a bit open to interpretation but thats basically it.
Part of the problem is that there's no clear way to identify when a combo was or wasn't possible to escape. It's not like blue beats where the combo counter outright tells you if it wasn't real.
@@missingno_fgctbf there's also just not a large enough amount of them. Most combos are escapable with good DI, SDI and awareness. There are some low % and niche platform ones but generally most combos (strings) are not true. A lot of jab 123s aren't even true 😭
@@crazyaxemurderer1233See that’s also a problem, because Smash’s definition of “frame trap” is completely different while also not being universal. Other fighting games, a frame trap is “there is a gap here, but you’ll get hit for trying to attack in it”. Smash, a frame trap is “there is a gap here, but you’ll get hit for doing ANYTHING, and you’ll also get hit for doing NOTHING” since there’s no universal f1 defensive option in the air (though there are character specific ones just for extra confusion)
the one distinction that always surprises me is that smash doesn't really have the "by any means necessary" mentality that fighting games have. If I'm doing a cheap strategy i feel like a fighting game player would react way differently than a smash player. Imagine what tokidos reputation would be if he was a smash player... I think he'd be a villain lol
imo this is because playing "by any means necessary" style in SF can be lame but in Smash it really makes the game trash. May the days of M2K's pure laser-camping Fox rest in piss. Though even in SF if the game's degen strats are bad enough you can get some sneers in my experience. Like switching to o. Sagat and doing o. Sagat stuff kinda ruins it for everybody.
I think it's mainly because in a "traditional" fighting game, you fight in a box, you can play really safe, really lame, there is always something in the screen because you are stuck in a box.
While in smash and other platform fighting games, playing lame is like circle camping, ledge planking, and it's so boring, there is no tension. So playing lame becomes way way worse than in traditional fighting games.
@@tonynguyen6639 i understand that, but i feel like part of the community has kinda lost the plot, any second you're not running at them you're stalling. Remember that TO who DQd a guy for "stalling" while he wasn't even winning? Like literally, he was a stock down, stood still for 5 seconds and got DQd
It's already been said but yeah, it's becasue smash has far more capacity for real scumbag strats that ruin games.
Shiek planking with vanish, Ice Climbers Wobbling, circle camping, running the clock (games are 8 minutes long in Smash),
@@genejas true I think the TO made the wrong decision. But I also think it's a game flaw, a situation like that wouldn't even happen if you had something like negative penalties. In fact there is one with dodge, shield and even attacks but it should be extended to movement too, and includes special movement like zss down b or diddy Kong side b that can be used to flee as well.
7:15 remembering that in Melee's non-versus modes the c-stick is mapped off of aerials and smash attacks and now controls the fucking camera instead, with no option to have it... not fucking do that
great training mode, just stellar
THe option for it to not do that is called Uncle Punch (and 20xx before it) and it's a game changer.
You can totally play Melee in 2024! You just have to jump through these 15 hoops, and then hey guess what? You too can get completely eviscerated online!
But people still do it, so what do I know?
@@kode-man23 For me, Melee is so fun I even enjoy losing. I acknowledge that's not for everyone, though. I do wish Nintendo would hire team Slippi to port Melee to modern hardware with all the updates they've added like rollback netcode and the Uncle Punch training mod etc. like how Code Mystics keep getting hired to add rollback to old fighting games. It's a win-win for everyone which is why Nintendo won't do it. (It's not enough to win: others must lose - the motto of arseholes.)
@@kode-man23 I don't think there's a greater barrier of entry to play melee on your computer than literally anything on fightcade, you just download an iso and slippi.
@@kode-man23 playing melee in 2024 is definitely not 15 hoops lol actually takes 10 min to set up slippi wdym
That last bit is def important, people shouldn't worry about feeling like they need to prove the "worth" of their game.
True this game is for kids and it’s supposed to be fun.
I feel like it's borderline generational trauma at this point
i think the idea and stigma of smash being a "fake" fighting game is something exclusively reserved for the comment sections on twitter and YT nowadays. not a convo ive had/heard irl in forever
Anybody that calls Smash Bros not a fighting game are only fooling themselves.
they're coping bc smash alone has a big enough scene to rival every other fighting game combined
@@omegalilbchass8270 melee alone could fight the whole fighting game community tbh
@@omegalilbchass8270To be fair, there is like, NO competition for Platform fighters. Versus fighters? Skulgirls, DBFZ, UMvC3. Classic fighters? KoF, Street Fighter, Fatal Fury. Anime fighter? Melty Blood, BlazBlue, HFTF. There's only one major platform fighter to play, outside of like Brawlhalla, and smash players don't have fighting game variety like the average FGC player, and because its a crossover fighter, there's WAY more casual players.
The main reason the FGC hates Smash is the fact that the game is 1, WAY different from most of the main fighting games, 2, far more casual when played in full, and 3, the smash community band 98% of the game to make the game competitive. There's also the fact that the game doesn't have health bars, so you never truly know how close someone is to death while spectating. You could be at 210% and if they don't hit a kill move they'll live for another 30.
@@skelebrosgaming2187I don't get the banned 98% to make competitive thing? Do mean like stages?
I think for a lot of smash scenes, PR is also really good for advertising local scenes. I found that most fighting games are about the big monthlies, but in smash you have more weekly locals to go to. I find it encourages mid level players to grind and keep attending locals.
I always thought that those smash power ranks are pretty similar to japanese arcade's ranbats (ranking battles).
Having those weekly/monthly ranking battles pertaining to local scene helps keeping the local offline groups alive.
I remember Brian F going 'Bro capcom making ranked good is so important because sponsors look at the ladder as one of the few points of reference of where they land' I thought LOOK AT WHAT NOT HAVING POWER RANKINGS GET YOU. I thought I was going crazy after listening how obstinate people were against rankings in the FGC then listening to this.
Different terms FGC players/Smash players use to refer to the same thing:
Casual matches = Friendlies
Mirror match = Ditto
Recovery frames = Endlag
Landing frames = Landing lag
Jumping moves = Aerials
Blocking = Shielding
Okizeme = Techchasing
Corner pressure = Stage control
Corner pressure is also called corner pressure in smash circles, now.
Well blocking and shielding literally aren't the same thing even though they serve a similar purpose
@Kaiju Yeah, the last 3 (Shielding, Techchasing, Stage control) all have a completely different role in Smash compared to FGs.
It makes sense that different terms are used, but when you look at them in isolation, it's kinda funny. Different communities have different terms to describe the same thing happening on the screen.
@@Caleb-zl4wk Smash doesn't even have corners, bro.
@@babulbithe edges of the stage are also referred to as corners and are functionally the same (with a bunch of specific stuff, naturally)
One of my favorite part of smash tournaments was the custom setup. People would have TVs decked out in stickers and signatures from known players. They’d have custom skins, stages, and music that defined their personality. Even menus may be themed for the specific tournament, holiday, or region you’re playing in. All of this actually got me into modding and coding at a pretty young age too.
As much as I find that kinda stuff cool in theory it always ended up feeling super distracting to me. I had to ask TOs if I could wait for an unmodded setup all the time and after a while during Smash 4 at least so many setups were modded that I just straight up had to stop going to locals.
I'm gonna say it, traditional fighting game events and locals tend to be just as smelly as smash events. This is some crazy PR on the level of "Oh Mozart is Austrian but Hitler is German"
It ain't even just fighting games, any nerd event whether it's an esports tourney, card event, or even just a con there's gonna be a healthy supply of people who don't wash they ass. I really don't know why smash specifically always had this reputation alone.
I disagree, but at the same time I don't go to as many locals as I did pre-covid.
True but its funnier to rag on smash for it
@@medicfdumbo as a smasher i agree
When did u start going to smash events. Trust me the meme started for a reason
I think the biggest thing is that many parts of the FGC don't think Smash is a fighting game at all. I don't really understand why smash can't have two identities when I have friends who treat Mortal Kombat and Tekken party games lol.
Do they? Isn't that an outdated take? Maybe I am in more enlightened parts of the FGC but I don't see it. I would say that is something people would say about arena fighters these days but most people who know what's up are aware that Smash is 100% a competitive fighting game. It's just a platform fighter which has different rules and requires different skills.
Like, 2d and 3d fighters are quite different but there is I would say more crossover from those two, and then platform fighters are even more different, but they are all fighting games.
Arena fighters too, it's just most of those are shitty cashgrabs unfortunately.
@@charliericker274Well if you ask on r/Fighters there are definitely people who will hold on to that smash isn’t a fighting game.
I would say it becomes a fighting game once you remove all that random stuff like they do in the competitive scene.
I'm one of those guys, and to me the main issue is focal adherence. It's something every other "real" fighting game shares that Smash lacks, and also the root cause of some of the more bizarre rules and tech IMO. In any other fighter your movement is balanced around your facing. For example forwards movement is usually faster than backwards. So characters with good mobility generally can't abuse it (or the stage when applicable) to circle camp. It also means that micro isn't as executionally demanding. I was dumbfounded the first time I heard about perfect pivots.
I'm all for hybrid genres, but this is significant enough to make platform fighters distinctly different from traditional ones, kinda like how movement shooters play very differently from immersive sims even if they look similar at a glance.
@@hijster479 I mostly see it as a branch under the umbrella of fighting games rather than the same thing. I’ve learned how to play both and the main things that carried over are frame data, the footsies trilemma, and mentality (for both improving and decision making). Other than that it was a mostly different learning process.
I like both Smash and Fighting games and don't think it is a fighting game.
my friends who like smash have no interest in learning fighting games, while people who like them tend to try other FGs,
But for Rivals 2 they are interested in trying.
They are similar in being competitive "1x1" games, but I think they differ to much to be considered a Fighting game.
Smash is super sick, wish it had online
Melee does
The latency mod actually makes it playable
smash has online, but it suffers badly from lag.
I'm pretty sure this comment is making a joke guys
@@Creepo_J obviously... demi is the only one who didn't seem to catch that.
Power rankings are all about building the sense of community. A new player joining the scene is never going to meet/play the best player in the world, but they could very likely meet the best player in their city or state. State scenes and EvW scenes are so big to both the history of Smash and the community of Smash.
Plus it has that addictive DBZ powerlevel vibe, lol.
One big thing that FGC always get wrong is lumping smash games into one bag. Ultimate, Melee, 64 are basically separate communities. There are even some regionals that only run ultimate or only run melee. Whenever someone generalizes with just saying “Smash” when referencing something I’m 90% sure they’re not in any of the smash communities.
Another big thing is how little credit FGC people give Ultimate and Melee players. Honestly Ultimate is relatively easy compared to other games, but Melee is hard as hell. I’d wager anything that a top FGC player wouldn’t get past pools at a Melee national after practicing melee for a year, but I’m certain a top melee player could get into bracket at EVO after practicing an FG. Riddles and Sami (formerly DruggedFox) have already done pretty well in SF6. I know we shouldn’t give too much credence to trolls, but I see FGC toxicity towards Smash games so much, and I never see it from Smash to FGC.
Someone who just says "Smash" also has a pretty good chance of being in the Ultimate community, but when they say it they're talking specifically about Ultimate. That one always annoys me
Leffen dishes out enough toxicity towards the FGC coming from Smash let alone all the stuff that isn't seen out in the open from other players. Also funny enough it would be more likely a top FGC player could do well in Melee compared to Ultimate because the balance is so awful and there's more room for execution to push their gameplay farther.
You usually see top players in Smash doing well in traditional fighters because they know what methods are required for them to improve at the game and have been doing so for years. I would assume the reason you don't see as much top FGC players crossing into Smash is because there's more perceivable randomness compared to the concrete gameplay of various fighters, therefore more opportunity to actually win tournaments.
I see it other way round with Smash Bros (Melee) being toxic towards FGC. But I think that's down to things I Google/RUclips as well as my offline environment being an ex Melee player and leaving so many years ago, things has probably change but the amount of things I heard wasn't nice at offline event. Mind you they probably wouldn't have said it to me if they knew I played other fighting games. I can understand Smash community resentment towards the FGC and why those people are toxic towards FGC.
@@Twisted_Logic I mean, it makes sense. Melee is practically it's own thing at this point, while the rest of the Smash Community is more than happy to move on.
@babulbi yeah cause brawl and 4 weren't good enough to stick around on lol
We'll see what happens to ultimate but I have a guess
I appreciate someone in the fgc giving kudos to smash. Smash is where I started playing fighting games with friends, and it always bothers me whenever someone discredits it.
As someone that started in smash but moved to traditional fgs, these videos are so entertaining haha.
I think Melee in the throwback slot at EVO would be great.
Honestly if big N would play ball with Evo for any smash game, Melee or otherwise, that'd be great.
Agreed!
@8:29 it's so fucking hilarious Don't Park on the Grass is still a thing. I wish I had pics of the house in Tukwila, WA where it got its namesake. Several of the state's top players lived there. You show up to play and they always tell you don't park on the grass lmao
I think a better way to think about the DI and SDI system for fgc players is to moreso think of them like burst. Sometimes you can get out pf a combo using it, but other times you do have to hold that combo. The fun and skill comes in playing around it, with things like mixing up punishes with different moves to bait out certain DI directions and punishing that. Great video!
Smash is so fucking cool with these concepts alone
You literally manipulate physics real time according to the environment and opponent in order to not lose and perhaps get the upper hand
Good take. Much like Burst, when used carelessly or predictably in a combo your opponent can obliterate your ass for it.
Smash is just like any duel grene game: horribly misunderstood and misrepresented: but endlessly interesting nontheless!
I once had someone tell me Smash de-emphasizes movement. That was pretty funny
former comp brawl player here, brawl also had combos. definitely a lot more limited in scope (mostly restricted to nontumble combos due to the cancels) but they did exist.
I think the big thing about lingo is that since Smash developed different terminology for similar things to traditional fighters because they were kept separate for the longest time, a lot of the lingo sounds foreign to the FGC. Whereas in a game like Tekken, you have a knockdown or combo followed by okizeme, in Smash you can have a combo (or often even just a single move) into a tech chase. The premise is the same where you land a hit, the opponent is on the ground with limited options, and you try to cover their options to continue the pressure. But whereas that situation occurs after the majority of punishes or combos in Tekken, it’s much less common in Smash due to the more vertical nature of the game and the goal being to send your opponent off stage. That being said, I think Melee has the closest thing to traditional fighter okizeme as you can get for a platform fighter (especially since tech chases in Melee happen much more frequently due to the heavy gravity physics of the game). And as a side note, it would be pretty funny and also cursed to see a match from either a platform fighter or traditional fighter with commentators using lingo for the other sub-genre
I think one of the reasons for the third thing is smash players define combo in a different way. Like the defender can exit hitstun and it is still referred too as a combo (hints the distinction between a true combo)
To add onto this, it's because there's no air teching, so when you exit hitsun but the next move is about to hit, you need to air dodge or use some invincible/armored special move. If a character's fastest escape option is frame 4, hitting them 3 frames out of hitstun is technically not true but its effectively a true combo on that character, so smash players call it a combo even if the same sequence doesn't work on a character with a frame 2 escape option.
That's why smash players make a distinction between true combos and combos you can sometimes get out of.
Where in fighting games it's called Oki, or followup or a number of other stuff.
Uh no that's not true at all.
If the defender can exit hitstun, it's called a string.
A combo is where the opponent is stuck in hitstun. The only difference is DI can mean the combo is dropped if the attacker misreads the DI or doesn't react fast enough. A truecombo is one where the opponent can't escape if the attacker lands his hits and follows the DI.
A non-truecombo is one where the oppponent can DI a certain way that prevents any follow-up attacks, even if the attacker knows the DI.
@melo7038 It depends, since in smash, specially melee, frame 1 intangible options out of hitstun in the air are extremely uncommon, often the opponent may exit hitstun before the next attack hits them and may even do their midair jump, but they can't escape the followup. Even though they're out of hitstun, since there's no combo scaling in the game it is by all effects a true combo.
Ultimate tends to be tighter with combo windows, but even so there are many combos that depend on moves hitting before their air dodge becomes intangible. With only very few characters having faster ways to avoid it.
It isn't what the OP is referring to I think, but applies conceptually I guess.
Yo exactly. Smash players will kill someone in three interactions that aren't true and so long as they never touched you it's a 0-death. When we say TOD, we MEAN 100% in one interaction.
What would be nice is if backstage there was just 2 setups for the next 1-2 guys up to go into practice mode real quick while the other match is going on.
Pennsylvania mentioned 🗣️
Hey! I used to run a pretty successful casual Ultimate local here in the Tampa Bay area of Florida at a place called Driftwood. When I say casual local, I mean we just didn't do anything to make the tournament Power Ranking official. We had legit Ranked players showing up to our weekly, and at one point we had about 54 entrants.
Couple things I can say as one of the TOs: Smell is hit or miss, it depends. For the most part, our venue didn't smell but it's because the owner wanted us to get on top of it for anyone that did. I've been to locals that do smell, and I've been to other locals that don't. We didn't have a "VIP Room" but we did have a stream set up and we wanted to be sure we had enough set ups to not just run the bracket, but to have friendlies open by the time we got to top 8 or so.
One other thing I was hoping you'd comment on was motion inputs! Smashers actually use motion input constantly! A really good example in Ultimate is getting forward momentum Nair with fast fall. You gotta hit 6 to jump forward, then 5A to get nair, then 23 to get fast fall and continue the forward momentum. And the timing for it varies across the entire cast.
Also I can confirm the smasher's uniform is a real thing.
The reason smash players constantly feel the need to "prove" smash is a real fighting game is because they spent a decade being told by sf players that its not. Smash players constantly got shit from the sf community about their game, all the time at every venue, and the result of that toxicity is still seen in the community today.
It's also why smash tends to take itself very seriously, to show a competitive integrity to distance itself from the "party game" accusation
Played in melee tournaments for a while and the biggest advantage to having a PR was seeding when people would travel. Helps other TOs seed more accurately.
PRs are also good to find out who to learn from. I can find VODs of my character much easier when there are rankings for players you would normally never hear of.
The (pls watch) actually worked on me ngl: really appreciate the more sincere tone for the ad too!
Evil evil thumbnail, gets both crowds and everyone else good stuff
Thank you for reminding me of the Mam Mia my day has become instantly better
a top 8 break/vip room. where the player can train or relax until they get back out there doesn't seem like a bad idea.
get a steam deck for warmups
Played melee for a while but only ever went to one small local while in college. Think there were around twenty people there, and the stench was unbearable. A noxious mixture of cigarettes and B.O. Literally the only reason why I never went to another tournament.
I feel like that's just gamers. I've only had one gamer smell problem and it was a tekken player
Tio was made by nealdt, the guy who made AllisBrawl, so it was made by a Smasher. Was the first software that really standardized and digitized brackets, I can't imagine how tedious it was to run brackets before that.
Do you have any you would have included?
also shoutouts to CTRL for sponsoring the video (pls watch the ad for the one time)
(also pls subscribe)
As someone who plays primarily ultimate in Smash, there are a lot of differences between melee and ultimate and a lot of trad Fighter players dont realize the differences.
In ultimate there are SO many characters, low tier heroes are absolutely everywhere and they will completely annihilate you for not understanding the matchup properly. Smash players also seem to more heavily prioritize the player experience, we tend to have longer sets and all BO5 brackets are becoming somewhat common. It is also significantly more common to have counterpicks/pocket characters in smash. You have to be ready for your opponent to switch characters on you when they lose, and it is also common to have a pocket character ready to cover bad matchups or to just change up the pace/playstyle. I see a lot less of this in the FGC, whereas having a pocket is about 50/50 in smash character loyalists are the norm in the FGC.
something i've noticed in my foray into tfgs (i've played melee for years, started in college) is that lots of the traditional fgc has some misconception on how connected the different smash titles are. ult is WILDLY different from melee; i would say Xrd has more in common with melee than ult does. 64 as well is a totally different beasts, as is sm4sh (although it's more like ult). we don't talk about the middle child, unless u mean P+. but in lots of tfgs, there is a lot more carry over from title to title, and legacy remakes are much more normal. there's no rising, uni 2, rev 2 equivalent for smash, the physics system is typically completely overhauled between games, and characters are often completely reworked. this causes the fgc to treat the ult community and melee community the same as the two active scenes, when they are really entirely different, with VERY little overlap. it makes sense, considering that's a lot more normal with traditional fighting games.
Ok but do they really call wake up DP a mama mia tho
Not something that needed to be included but just a confirmation, Tio was made by a smasher, an ICs player called NealDT
@@Gilbot9000that was a thing in Smash 4 as a joke I think. I mean we had the Hoo Hah, Wind Kong, Ding Dong, Particle Accelerator and Wank DI a lot of the terms are a lot more jovial than the FGC I like to think of it like how Fist Of The North Star is well Basketball terms
heard you were spitting some insane wobbling takes at wemad this past weekend brother, wasn't there but would've loved to witness some insane takes
I think power rankings really help build storylines that are easy to understand for more casual watchers.
You know what i don't get? The wild extinct to which they deify players.
And villainize. As a Smash and GGS player, I think it's mainly a result of spectators being obsessed with the idea of a story that they can attach to a player. That, and there is a lot of character bias and a preference for faster-paced, more aggressive meta games. Though to be fair, that's only really a thing in Melee, and even then, that kind of thing isn't recent, and was more of a thing a decade or more ago. In Melee, there were 5 players who were consistently the strongest players for a while, so they were called the "Five Gods of Melee." It's probably just due to the nerdy culture of Melee back then, but I wouldn't say Smash fans exactly "deify" Smash players as much nowadays. That might be another thing FGC fans get wrong. As far as worshiping players goes in Smash right now, it's pretty much to a similar degree of what people say/do in Guilty Gear Strive, which is just refer to some players as the "GOAT," which you see people doing when referring to players like Gobou.
Honestly the fgc is weird for not having power rankings, y’all ever heard of sports ?
Yeah I was turned off of our SF6 local because there’s no power rankings. So the matches don’t really matter unless you’re winning the tournament and getting prize money. Where with a PR, just winning one R1 and not going 0-2 is a big achievement
I wish the FGC did more stuff like power rankings or tournament stat/result tracking as well as smash did. It's amazing for spectators and telling a narrative over time. It's the kind of long-term story telling that makes sports interesting. FGC of course have these narratives, but putting numbers to it and making it quantifiable makes a huge difference for the spectator experience.
Dude I saw the smash fit and I am so sorry for Axe
Smash is awesome and a worthy fighting game.
If people can't understand smash then it makes it even better
It's one hell of a game series
When I start getting a bunch of gray hairs, I hope I can pull it off like this 😂
@4:59 Based Shinkou name drop
As someone who’s switched from smash to GuilyGear, I just wanna say that I’ll be surprised if I ever hear Jair or Fair1 ff up air d smash ever again. Keep up this amazing content.
A little nitpick for your third point, smash does have combos, however you show only Kazuya combos when there are a plethora of non traditional fighting characters to pick from for that point, it only seems like the only ones that have combos are the characters from traditional fighting games, or at least that's how I see it from the editing
With the third thing, my issue being in my complaints being that the only way to truly practice efficiently is to use an online program like Uncle punch, and that is only accessible via a computer. So those of us playing smash melee the old way or playing ultimate on a switch have no true way to practice efficiently.
VIP rooms aren't exclusive to Smash tournaments. EVO has a special area that only designated personnel are allowed to be in, usually by paying for a spot.
Retro collection pr jumpscare
I find it bonkers that american smash (and fgc) tournamnets have bracket pools instead of RR pools. The whole thing about double jeopardy has already been solved at most european (smash) tournaments
From my time in the Melee community the idea of a VIP room doesn't surprise me in the slightest
There was also a tendancy for Melee players to ignore what their bodies were telling them. I ended up dropping the game because playing it made my right hand go numb, followed by pain in my palm. Other games didn't do that (not even the other fighters i dabbled in) and when I discussed improving in spite of the discomfort/pain with a local top player, he said i needed the discipline to practice more. I didn't need to follow Hax's example, thanks. Dropped it for Smash 4, got bored with that, played Injustice for a while and now play RPGs and playformers lol
i will say hella melee combos are DI dependent, its just you have ways to trip them up worse hella often. DI in new smash is just you DI correctly or you dont and thats that. Melee has a lot of stuff that i would sorta group together with red parries, hella hard stuff that allows you to make shit that normally works into sus
Prototype Sonic CD music? I see you.
Top tier thumbnail
As someone who has only competed in ultimate for four years in europe before quitting, I am inclined to believe the bad smell thing is an NA only thing **runs**
There was a tiny bit of drama not too long ago with the French scene when top NA players got invited there and commented at how shocked they were at the smell of their tournament, so I don’t think this really holds true. It’s probably just a thing for big tournaments with hundreds of sweaty players
I started playing smash as my first game I ever played then I got addicted to Tekken and never turned back
You should do a video on antinomy of common flowers , it's the best fighting game no one is talking about
Isn't Soku widely considered better?
@@mechadekaYes Soku is considered better because it's grounded but I do vouch for antinomy of common flowers because it's the only game where neutral is the entire screen
Excellent thumbnail
I've been to smash tournaments and the only smell I noticed was weed not BO
at 7:42 bro is gassing up how good the combos are in melee and he shows....... marth doing up throw up air fsmash on falco? agree with the point but damn bro you did melee dirty with that example lmaoooo
LK is our kindest ally, let's go.
9:44 you can't fool me, that clip was so random but you just wanted to flex that win and your pop off.
Well it was that same opponent who put him in loser's that tournament so not really a random clip
Talking about wanting a separate room to warmup when showing Melty Blood footage, hm?
It's low-hanging fruit but funny nonetheless.
The stereotype that smash players stink has two main sources: nerds in general are stereotyped as stinking (which means people say the same thing for traditional fighting game players, and really all gamers), and smashers have to carry big CRT TVs to the tournaments. Also, I've never heard of the "mama mia" (but I've kind of dropped off following Ult recently) but I'm pretty sure people have been doing tech in place invincible move since time immemorial. (As a falcon player, tech in place shine is the bane of my existence.)
Smash Ult was originally criticized for "no combos" by Smash players, but the truth is that the harder combos require a lot of game knowledge and good execution. % windows, DI, SDI, some moves have multiple hitboxes that can send at different angles, your opponent's character might have specific options during certain combos, platforms, at what altitude/distance you hit the move can matter. For as simple as Smash is, it's just about as complicated too.
The thing I hate the most is smash players can't do motion inputs. Smash's motions inputs feels so much worse to do than in (most) fighting game. I play 3rd strike, strive ans sf6 and I cam do motion inputs just fine but in smash? Hell nah
Nah I disagree with that. The motion inputs in Smash Bros are incredibly generous. Even the EWGF doesn't require frame perfect accuracy. The trade-off is that you're doing them with an analog stick instead of an actual arcade stick or d-pad
@KaitouKaiju motion inputs aren't even that hard on a analog stick tho
TIL traditional FG tournaments don't usually have a room for people deep in the bracket to warm up. Wtf? I get it if it's a poverty scene but do they not do this for the corporate sponsored events at least??
3:56 I stay hating especially on MK terminology because with the simplified motions ppl will say shit like d f 2 which is inherently unclear since df is also a single direction. Also stuff like back-forward just makes my brain short circuit. (This is primarily a skill issue. I am simply a hater) (and smash terminology is still worst most the time)
Well that's the thing, in Mortal Kombat you have little reason to ever use diagonals unless you're just doing a forward jump or something like that.
Boutta get an arcade stick with a + gate so MK notation finally makes sense to me
There are true combos in brawl just very few
one thing I respect about smash players is their refusal to give up despite having the worst online play of any competitive fighting game that anyone cares about, having possibly the least official support of any major competitive game (I haven't heard about Capcom or Namco or Sega or Arcsys copyright lawyers shutting down any street fighter tournaments) and having without a doubt the absolute jankest most community-created rules of any competitive game, all while getting shit on constantly by a very loud chunk of the community that's closest to theirs in video games.
Mfs have the audacity to call smash not a fighting game and then they complain about losing and getting shmixed by people
Combo Breaker 2018 or 2019 (I forget which) I literally dropped out of ultimate after 1 match because the smash/anime ballroom smelled so bad. It was unbearable
You gotta hit em with the yoinky sploinky
The fact that people say smash has no, combos hurts my soul dude, you know already bayo the touch of death letter combos we had to struggle through Rob Gyro, combos kazuya electric, combos Wario, waft. Dude especially streetfighter combos they have it easy combo does 50% of a health bar maximum which we literally die after the opponent wins one neutral interaction also street fighter combo game is way weaker than even smash ultimate. Most characters can kill you off two combos. Will you guys have to do like four Dude, I was so surprised when you guys weren’t stuck in 60 seconds of disadvantage also your advantage state is way easier because all you have to count for block well we have to account for DI, mixup air dodges, smashes easy they say go play ultimate peach, and see how that goes
to be fair i respect smash and all,but with all the things i learns know in to the more traditional fighting games,there is a couples or things i can say:
Smash has a lot to envy of fighting games, in general both in terms of balance, ranking, mechanics, etc.
is a bad fighting game,with a excellent idea and lots to improve,and i hope thats will be the case in the future
Wait so the fgc actually doesn't have player power rankings? So I'm not crazy lol but wtf why not. As someone who not only watches smash but also cs the hltv top 20 rankings are just big for historical precedent and establishing the best players of an era. This sort of nebulous "well yeah this player and this player are really good, this player is arguably one of the best players in the world, etc" makes the spectator have to ultimately guess how good a player is. Yes, most of the players you see at a tournament are extremely good, but cmon we know there's levels to this shit. We know s1mple's the GOAT, we know Zywoo is on that level too because he's been number 1 the past few years, and we know that mkleo and armada and mango are some of the greatest players of all time, and there isn't really an argument
The biggest and most obvious thing that Lordlnigjt missed is the average age of the scene is way younger in Smash than it is in traditional FGC and you can infer a lot of the differences between the two scenes because of that difference.
Between melee and the FGC, it’s pretty similar. Late 20s early 30s. But yes ultimate does have a generally younger demographic.
I have taken aoe damage from the stink on smash players in some tournaments
I want to play other fighting games but have nothing to play them on, so I still play smash. Btw yeah the real tournaments smell like ass. Your local probably doesn’t.
Dope content ✊🏽
Smash Melee would be dead 10 times over if not for its community of incredibly experienced and dedicated grassroots TOs. Its no wonder that other games can borrow tournament innovations from them.
While having a designated practice area for players in the deep section of bracket, smash does honestly have an issue with glazing their top players too hard
Issue from what point of view? Like... who is it hurting? From the pov of a smash player I think it's fine bc it's cool to have people you can idolize like that.
@@Caleb-zl4wk idolizing people is why so many people were able to get away with sex crimes and abuse stories. Nairo, ally, zero, keitaro, elegant, cinnpie, all people that did horrible stuff bc the people around them idolized them and enabled them. And that's just the first few names that came to mind. There's actually dozens of stories like that.
Idolizing people is actually never good. I hope you don't have to learn that lesson the hard way. It hurts a lot of people and it's not cool.
My guy, people to this day still think that Infiltration should be allowed to compete. Smash is not alone in this problem, its just one of the most talked about because people like drama.
@@AceLeader101 I follow every fighting game pretty closely. Yes they all have their drama but I can categorically say that the smash community is worse than all of them on this.
All of those other games have dev support and smash doesn't for a reason. The community has actively on multiple occasions gone out of their way to trash their own perception. And part of the reason for that is the idol worship being way out of hand
Good video but I think it would've been better if it focused more on the game itself
Also, while I don't remember ever going to a Smash local that smelled like B.O., I have been to MANY that smelled like weed at the entrance
Yeah the b.o. thing is honestly way overstated. Usually at a weekly it's like one actually stinky person. The weed smell is absolutely unavoidable, however.
12:00 sounds like LK just want to get glazed ngl.
People talk as if uninteractable combos are a good thing. Being in a sequence where you can't do anything for 5 seconds or more is not fun. Interactivity is fun.
Confirms are fun but they are usually 2 hits.
Combos start getting fun when you consistently read your opponent and string together an insane sequence.
personally i think it's weird that smash fans will make intricate combo videos where it's super badass and uses the most badass anime music and filters and make their character look like god on earth but it's like, Bowser Jr. or Toon Link. it's not nearly that serious
ah! I have your answer. y'know those tier lists? those tend to put people like Bowser on the lower ends of the list, and smash bros players, from what I can tell, tend to run either younger, or are into those badass anime things, so when they see those tier lists, they're like "I'll show them! I'm gonna be the one who GIVES toon link the RETRIBUTION he DESERVES!!"
and, yeah, you see this alot in things, especially legos, you look at them, they're just little guys, y'know? "oh I'm sorry, I can't hear you over Deathmasks MURDERED PARENTS!!" some people just don't care about surface appearance. t's why sonic fans have such heated arguments over tone.
actually, I think the best summary I can give is a weird quote from a melee video talking about donkey kong, or bowser. "melee is theater." now that's some nonsense, but it fits in perfectly with some people's mentality about these dang games.
Idk I don't find either of those characters any sillier than Kuma in Tekken or Blitztank
@@ehhorve857 god okay framing it with sonic and tone puts it into perspective. as a sonic fan myself I know full well how much people love sonic getting serious
@@bigredradishyeah! yeah. happy ta help.
64 best
is Project M still a thing?
Yes, but it's called Project+ now because new developers have taken over after some weird legal thing sort of forced Project M under
@@YashichiDSFthanks for the update I had no idea
@@metroidgusvery fun still. My state still has 20 man weeklies
@@RePlayQthats awesome to hear
in smash, a dp is called a mama mia, a fireball is called a papa pia, and if i recall correctly a super is called a big spaghetti
...The Smash FGC acknowledges Final Smashes?
I met Zane at CEO and yes, I can confirm the smell.
I haven't gotten past the sponsor yet but I wanna say Wavedashing being a glitch.
Sakurai himself says they were intentional because he's a fan of Tekken and MVC.
You just contradicted yourself
@@Creepo_J *how*
Wavedashing is not a glitch because Sakurai says they were intentional. How are you this delusional
@@CassiusStelar
I misread
@CassiusStelar
Chill
I know about Sakurai putting it in the game intentionally
The existence of VIP rooms in any given area means either the lower skilled players are annoying or the higher skilled players are annoying. No in between.