Greg, you promised me to publish links to the episodes I refer to from the videos of mine but you didnt,would have been an important part of our dispute. Because that would expose your and your client 😉 manipulations. Now its late already, after a day or two,obviously It was promised to have links to CONCRETE EPISODES that I mention, refuting their lies, not FULL videos, it doesnt make any sense, everyone knows the videos anyways. Cheap, Greg I even offered to send exact cuts from those videos of episodes we mention in this conversation. Was reassured it is not needed, will be done by him. Just showing you real faces of those "opponents" But whaever tricks in front The truth will prevail
Dear Vladimir Borisovich, as discussed, we've published the links to the videos referred to by you in the video description. You may have missed them - they are in the description of the video under "Kramnik's videos discussed in the podcast". We did everything as agreed. Please fact-check before accusing anyone of anything. The links are to concrete episodes of your fifteen-video investigation. If you want us to provide the exact time-codes from those episodes, we can do so - please send them to me here or in DMs on Telegram. And yes, you have offered me to send the exact cuts from those videos to insert them into the podcast, but I have told you on the call that we will not insert any graphics into this episode to be able to publish it as soon as possible, because otherwise video editing would have taken a long time, and you have agreed to that. I can publish the video where you say it if you want 😉
@@MustreaderChess never mind, everything is clear for me about your ethics and methods, go on serving futher, I go on with fighting against lies and manipulations, cheers my friend 🙌
@@VBKramnik Considering the fact you've accused me of lying without even checking basic facts, for you to accuse someone is an automatic reaction if they disagree with you. It looks like you're not fighting lies, but just spreading them, and once it turns out your "FACTS" were untrue, you say "never mind". Classic gaslighting. You cannot fight cheating using lies, manipulation, and cyberbullying. Worst of all, this discredits the anti-cheating movement in general. This will make it harder for the chess world to fight cheaters in future. You just feed your ego behaving in this way. You can (and probably will) continue doing this, but don't be surprised if the number of your followers gradually dwindles over time and you lose relevance. As you like to say, the truth will prevail.
actually keeping in mind that camera angle it's quite real. so funny people still talking about movements while the main strange was Danya's bishop move candidate when Kramnik made a poll among other GMs and no one found it within 10 seconds and even within 10 minutes.
@@happyrabbit7944 a single move like that proves absolutely nothing. In his "analysis" he conveniently leaves out the rest of the game. It is of low quality and Danya almost lost. I'm honestly getting a bit tired at people buying into this bs. It's like claiming the moon landing was fake by pointing at some weird shadows, implying that whoever faked it is an idiot and would leave such easy-to-spot clues.
@@happyrabbit7944 no, individual moves don't prove anything. If you have a sequence of 10 unexplainable moves, several games in a row, then this is suspicious. A single move in an otherwise blunder-filled game is completely irrelevant. Caruana pointed this out, if you are looking for an argument from authority ("proves everything for professionals").
100% true. Kramnik shouldn't have taken part in this podcast, where it was clear from the start that the host wouldn’t be interested in data and facts.
@@TheChessTheoretician the man is defending his integrity, his reputation and likely a considerable portion of his livelihood. You must be very young indeed if you can't understand how that could affect a person in the ways Danya states.
There is a new channel called exposing chess cheaters and he is changing the opinion of many people that were thinking exactly what you are thinking now. Check that channel's videos and then think for yourself if it's very suspicious and if people like Naka are acting in a hypocrite way, by defending Danya about the same things he accused others of cheating. Check it yourself before accusing Kramnik in such a way
Vladimir deliberately damages people's image but now crys foul when he says this is happening to him. I can't listen to this guy anymore. What a disgrace.
you mean it doesnt matter if the image is genuine? Like, I am a doctor for instance, and that is true by the way, would it bother you if I bought my license but never studied?
Dany said in one interview regarding this that Kramnik would lie and when called out on that lie he would deny, when shown proof he would just say something like "lets move on its not relevant." Five minutes in we already have a prime example "he has recorded at least three times as much as me" "it is a fact, lets not move away from a fact if you disagree about it" and then when he is shown to be absolutely wrong with that number "this is not relevant, lets move on"
@@jasond.personal5433 That's a bit hyperbolic. Kramnik, while very incorrect and arguing irrationally, is not necessarily meeting criteria for that label. From the evidence we have available it's really only reasonable to say he's leaning into common cognitive distortions, ones that we're all susceptible to (to some degree). Pathological lying is a different story. Let's not misuse clinical labels just because we dislike a behavior.
@@jasond.personal5433 100%! Ive seen the same thing in even worse people than Kramnik (not people i know but like criminal cases and crazy influencers) and unfortunately the only thing to do with them is what Hikaru suggest, dont play along at all. They dont feel shame and wont ever admit they are mistaken. It is unfoetunate when they get into positions of power as Kramnik but it is no use to try talking him into reason. The only positive here is that perhaps a few Kramnik-fanboys actually sees him for what he is, but based on the comments on his own videos it does t seem likely to persuade that many.
@@ItsAsparageese you can't say that and be up-to-date with everything that has happened till now. Lying manipulating and deceiving are the only things he does
@@jasond.personal5433 I've been staying quite up-to-date, but that's not really as relevant as you seem to think it is. Pathological lying is a different thing from Lying A Lot And Doubling Down About It And Leaning Into Cognitive Distortions. I'm speaking as someone pretty literate in psychology and neuroscience; literally none of us have the evidence a licensed clinician would need to diagnose the behavior of pathological lying. _Maybe_ he meets those criteria (I doubt it) but none of us are or will realistically ever be in a position to evaluate that. To call him a pathological liar is to misuse that label. I know I'm being pedantic and I don't mean to pick on you or anything, it's just that this trend of people misusing psychology labels as loose adjectives is just plain not good for society, so I try to educate against it where I can. Kramnik is a huge jerk, being totally irrational, lying a lot, doing tons of mental gymnastics to double down on his lies, attempting to manipulate people and discourse, and just generally sucking. We can state all these true facts without fudging the definition of a specific clinical symptom as an approximation.
Vladimir, people don't want to invite you because you don't know how to talk to people. You can't just keep talking over people and expect them to want to discuss anything with you. Be respectful, let people talk. Let them finish a sentence and then respond. Secondly, when you yourself are being disproved, you don't seem to be able to agree with facts. You can't pick and choose which facts to stick with and which ones to discard. There is no conspiracy. People simply don't want to discuss with someone who can't hold a respectful conversation.
Most of the time the podcaster was seemingly finishing a sentence and then as Kramnik tries to respond he kept going and sometimes wouldn't stop and could just keep going for minutes straight without giving him time because he always had a lot to say. It definitely was far from formal since no one could be given equal time etc.
There is some terminology confusion here, for a program to be minimized it must be open. An open program can be minimized or not, but a closed program cannot be minimized.
@@zkprintfMinimize to task bar. Desktop operating systems have GUI that usually consists of taskbar, where all running GUI apps are shown. Might be unknown concept to someone who used smartphones for everything.
@@zkprintf He means to minimize a window on your computer. You can have an application running but the window is minimized. If the application is not running you can't minimize it because it's not running in the first place.
4:35 "I will give facts, and we should not dispute facts." That's Kramnik's attitude in a nutshell. He considers what he says "facts" that are not to be disputed.
The problem is that the facts Kramnik has presented have NOT been disputed. How is that his fault? All Danya and his support group do is deflect and beat around the bush with such discussion like yours, complaining about the manner in which the facts are presented, or anything else besides confronting the facts presented.
@@dmitrikonnov922 I'm late Gen-X, not Gen-Z. People of my generation have been using the phrase passive-aggressive since I was a kid. Besides, the term was coined during WWII. He might be trying to avoid a lawsuit, but it won't help him since he has explicitly said there is an engine on the imagined monitor off to the side of Danya's setup. This is a miscomprehension of the law, just like Kramnik's miscomprehension of statistics.
Greg, I must applaud your effort, this episode was exhausting. Kramnik was barely letting you get your thoughts out and blatantly manipulating every subject. I wouldn't be surprised if this marks the last interview Kramnik gets invited too - he has shown his true colors and no sane person would want to have him as a guest. I wasn't familiar with you before, but I am a fan now!
He seems to be either a bully or a victim; whichever serves him at the moment. I'm not aware of any proof of cheating except when Kramnik admitted he violated fair play rules in the not too distant past. That's cheating & it's next-door to other ways to cheat. He already thinks he's above the rules.
@@Tobi-pn2xs Kramnik only apologized out of politeness and without understanding the dynamics of the discussion. Most people naturally interrupt others out of habit when others repeat things they have refuted to not waste time and energy. I have broken this section down thoroughly in another thread already but will paste it here as well. Greg tells Kramnik he believes that Danya thinks Kramnik used "slanderous lies with an evil spirit." Then Greg tries to argue that he also believes Danya is justified for having the belief (the start of this conversation is 39:53 in the video). Kramnik asks Greg to point out the slanderous lies. Greg replies that he can't read Danya's mind, which doesn't make sense because Greg only a moment ago tried to justify Danya's position. Kramnik correctly explains that because Greg was trying to justify Danya's position, Greg needs to explain why. And if Greg can't defend Danya's position then he shouldn't try to justify it! Greg doesn't realize his fallacy and claims Kramnik "interrupted him." Then after lecturing Kramnik about interruption, what is Greg's response...? Greg repeats his first point that he believes this is Danya's opinion while hiding or forgetting the fact that he also tried to justify the position. What Greg constantly employs in this interview is a fallacy known as motte-and-bailey. Greg presents Danya's arguments, even after Kramnik refutes them, as his own. This is the motte. Kramnik sometimes interrupts Greg and explains how he just refuted them. Then Greg accuses Kramnik of interrupting him and says he's only repeating what Danya said. This is the bailey. In nearly all the times Kramnik "interrupted Greg" it was when Greg was thoughtlessly trying to insert a ridiculous motte without dispute. Seriously, you can rewatch this podcast knowing Greg's trick and you will understand why Kramnik reacts the way he does. Simply put, this is the formula of the interview: Greg asks a rhetorical question disguised as a response that Danya had already given. Kramnik is well prepared and refutes Danya's position while giving his own. Greg follows up by repeating Danya's position, but as his own argument, that Kramnik had already refuted... So Kramnik annoyingly points out how he already refuted it. Greg then tells Kramnik not to interrupt him and repeats Danya's position, and adds this is what he thinks Danya believes.
@@JNA-h7c I see your point but this whole podcast was not set up as a debate and Greg's role was not to present Naroditsky. He just gave his view on everything. Meanwhile Kramnik got hung up on things like three second differences, refuses to believe that stream labs is a plausible explanation for the screen that keeps popping up and does not concede about the "Farming" allegations even after it's been made abundantly clear that Naroditsky has been playing those exact tournaments long before the FIDE rule changes. I agree that Greg could have been more explicit in justifying his beliefs but that is not the role he chose here. In my opinion Kramnik's performance was very weak, just getting hung up on technicalities. I lost the last bit of respect I had for him as a person watching this interview. When Kramnik claims that he refuted the fact that Naroditsky could set up the position in 20s after he did it in 23s, I cannot take that at all seriously. It's not a logical fallacy but that does not make it any less ridiculous
@@Tobi-pn2xs If you honestly believe this podcast was an interview instead of a debate with the appearance of an interview, then I don't know what to say. An interview at least provides enough context to show why the person thinks the way they do. If Kramnik didn't dispute how he wanted specific timeframes or "episodes" of his videos by commenting on here, I wouldn't have known Greg had even linked his full videos in the description because he has it conveniently tucked right in the middle. The three seconds, farming allegations, etc. are all talking points that Greg brought up because he wanted to use Danya's defense. It is what I mean by Greg's interview questions are actually rhetorical questions disguised as Danya's responses. Because of this, we don't have Kramnik's most updated response since Greg constrains the "interview" to what Danya has already talked about. Instead, you would have to watch Kramnik's videos directly to hear his views. Whether you disagree or not, Kramnik refutes Danya's response. That is not to say what Kramnik is saying is the truth or he has the last say of an argument but that he simply moved the discussion forward. Then it is Greg's duty to refute Kramnik's refutation to move the discussion if that it is his goal. Greg, however, just repeats Danya's arguments that Kramnik refuted, so when Kramnik "interrupts," Kramnik is explaining how he already addressed this. He is not interrupting to hide information as what many people are implying, but out of impatience due to Greg's incompetent interviewing. To give you examples from the topics you mentioned. Getting hung up on the three second difference is because in his original video, Greg claimed that Danya started Chessbase under 20 seconds because this is what Danya claimed and Greg didn't fact check. None of the context is shown on the podcast. Kramnik is only arguing that it was 24 seconds and Greg finally concedes it was 23 seconds. But Greg doesn't actually admit his mistake and only implies he had made a mistake by pointing to how Kramnik also made mistakes in the past. Kramnik tells Greg to point to the mistakes, and if he agrees, he will apologize. After, Greg repeats Danya's point. Kramnik kept interrupting Greg because Greg kept trying to sidestep his mistake instead of directly acknowledging that he had made a mistake. It's the same thing for the farming allegation. Kramnik refutes Danya's argument by stating he wasn't trying to point out Danya's intentions, but only the consequences of his action that because Danya farmed his rating to 2700, it is his opinion that Danya isn't a true 2700. The point of video was to show why Kramnik thought Danya wasn't a true 2700, not why Danya chose to farm. And we saw this happen with Alireza's farming the ratings for a spot in the Candidates after his hiatus to become a fashion designer. No one examined Alireza's intentions or his tournament history to see if this was consistent behavior. People just saw he farmed his rating and thought his spot for the Candidates wasn't earned "the proper way." Whether you accept this explanation or not, it is a refutation of Danya's argument. How does Greg respond? He repeats Danya's point and if iirc, Kramnik coincidentally "interrupts" Greg because he already refuted it. I am serious. Rewatch the podcast and see this pattern of "interruption" over and over again. The amount of times Kramnik actually cuts Greg off is about the same as when Greg tried doing the same to Kramnik. A real interview is what GothamChess showed. Levy disagrees with Kramnik about many things but he gave him a level of respect to share his opinion by asking honest questions and providing proper context. And guess what? Surprise, surprise, Kramnik doesn't interrupt!
Vlad is wrong and it's that simple. The reason Daniel is pissed with him is because he keeps publicly insinuating he's cheating. He's actually been remarkably polite given the circumstances, so good luck suing him for reacting badly to your trolling Vlad.
Questions no one asks:- 1. Why would a Grand Master need to look at an engine to assess positions after eight (not twenty, eight!) moves against an 1100 rated player. Shouldn't he be able to "educate" his viewers based upon his knowledge being a GM and knowing opening theory? 2. People say "Oh Danya could have done that a couple of seconds faster, so nothing proven re the missing twenty seconds". But no one asks, er why exactly would be busting a gut to try and do it FASTER than that time when he was, you know, trying to show how fast he could open it? Why in the middle of a casual speedrun, whilst interacting with his chat, against a beaten opponent just taking his own sweet time, would he suddenly be in such an incredible rush? Did he forsee he was going ro blurt out he was looking at an engine and mysteriously "lose" the twenty seconds of footage leading up to that?! 😂
I had to go watch the Levitov debate to check the 21 vs 23 seconds thing. It took Danya 11 seconds to enter the moves, with Chessbase already open. And somewhere between 15 and 20 more seconds (i can't really tell) for the engine to load. Kramnik has a strong point: chessbase is so clumsy that you would need for sure more than 20 seconds, it nearly takes 20 seconds alone for it to load. Making it indeed hard to believe that Danya's software was acually chessbase at that time. Danya's game-history on chessbase is irrelevant here, since the claim is that it is probably not chessbase. Damn man, Kramnik is friggin terrible at communicating his ideas and arguments.
This is what I did yesterday as well. For me it was 23/24 seconds. Starting at ~10.28 and finishing at ~10.51. Someone pointed out Chessbase flashes / blinks when the analysis is returned which you can see happening on Danya's screen. I think you are correct that the implication was that makes it impossible he was using Chessbase as stated but Kramnik looks like he didn't explain that well here because he didn't. He was just arguing that Mustreader wasn't honest in his previous podcast summarising their Russian debate as he claimed Danya proved he could do, when clearly he didn't.
Interesting point. Is it plausible, that chessbase takes different time to load depending on the computer load, the board position and phase of the moon? I checked the recording of the Levitov's debate, the thing is that he was not in a big rush to enter those 8 moves, he could really do that faster. Besides, during the speed run it is not entirely obvious to me that the engine was completely loaded in 20 seconds, 20 seconds is the duration of the cut, but after that another handful of seconds elapsed before he said exactly what the engine shows. and why is game history irrelevant, wouldn't it be a solid proof that he used chessbase on that day on exactly that position? I am not a chessbase user, so I don't know what to make of all that.
@@vladthemagnificent9052 I thought he entered the moves reasonably quickly. Eight moves per player, so sixteen movements entered in ten / eleven seconds. Funny thing is I haven't seen one person mention the converse. i.e. I see a lot of people saying he could have done it a second or two quicker so no big deal, but not one person has asked why we would be expecting him to enter the moves at breakneck speed in an educational speedrun, whilst he's interacting with his chat, against an opponent taking his own sweet time? He wasn't expecting that twenty seconds to subsequently get "lost" and to blurt out about using an engine, so why would he even be trying to operate faster than he could when he was actually trying to prove just how fast he could open it...
I’ve watched a lot of Kramnik’s videos on Danya, I wanted to be as objective as possible and give both sides a chance, but after following both sides of the argument for a while it became painfully obvious that Kramnik is not in this for the truth, he merely wants to be right at all costs. No amount of persuading or counter-arguments can convince him of anything. My question from the very beginning was this: why does Kramnik feel like he is owed an answer by anyone to begin with? And, does he not see that it’s always a circular argument whether he receives an answer or doesn’t? It goes something like this: -Kramnik accuses someone of cheating: Scenario A -> the accused person defends themselves -> Kramnik says that the response is either not convincing enough for him or that the accused person is either lying or not telling the whole truth -> the accused either keeps defending themselves, OR they lash out, OR gives up as they think that no amount of counter-argument is enough -> Kramnik continues reiterating his point that the accused hasn’t provided substantial proof of their innocence and states that it has now become personal since the accused person lashed out at him verbally OR Kramnik says that the accused has stopped responding which makes the initial accusation more truthful. Scenario B -> the accused person chooses to ignore Kramnik’s accusations -> Kramnik says that not responding is suspicious because a person that doesn’t cheat has nothing to hide OR repeatedly harasses the accused person by posting accusatory content about them which in a roundabout way basically implies that the accused person is either a cheater or a liar-> the accused person get frustrated and responds in either a cordial or not so cordial way -> Kramnik brushes off the response as lies or not completely truthful. And in both scenarios this goes on and on without any endpoint in sight, the initial goal that Kramnii claims to have which is “truth” get completely lost and overshadowed by the total shitstorm of back and forth or lack thereof. Finally, the accused either gets their reputation stained or totally destroyed (depending on who it is) and Kramnki gets….well what does he get out of it? Publicity? Does it make him feel like his opinion matters? Does it make him feel powerful? Does he feel like the overall good he created (if any) from the whole situation outweighs all the bad? Or does he feel like he has revealed the truth which he was initially talking about, meaning his own “truth”? There is no winning with this guy’s approach, he is obviously very bitter and miserable, for reasons which are up for speculation, but the bottom line is that his approach has done more harm than good, and that he’s going to keep doing it because he has nothing to lose anymore in terms if reputation.
@@joshjac81010 He's acting like he's approaching it purely factually, scientifically, non-emotionally and with curiosity, but his "facts" are just pure bias based on his own observations rather than some sort of objective evaluation, his stats and understanding of stats are beginner level so his "scientific method" is phony too. And finally, his act of not being emotionally invested in this is as equally as bad as all of the above, he's extremely emotional and it is evident in how he obviously represses his bitterness and anger with passive-aggressive sarcasm and dismissal of counter arguments. There's a meme that describes him really well and it's the one with the guy who's wearing a smiley mask but crying under it.
Yes, that's how a public interrogation happens: Danya responded, Kramnik puts forward new evidence why he believes Danya lied, Danya stops responding. Your Scenario A is disanalogous because Kramnik isn't simply repeating his points lol; he presented new evidence in his video titled "Exposure." Kramnik, there, went over why he thinks Danya didn't just use an engine once for his speedrun video and thinks Danya is lying because he found a more blatant instance (for stronger players at least) where Danya calculated mate in 7 and 8 instantly. In his email response to Mustreader, Danga *does* respond, but uses Fabiano's argument that a speedrun account isn't important/competitive in nature therefore anything is permissible. First, it's not obvious Fabi would agree constantly using an engine even for a speedrun is okay because the context he defends is the single accidental usage. Second, even if Fabi defends it, I think the majority of people would not agree because a speedrun account isn't the same as Ben Finegold's chess lecture where Ben can take back his opponent's moves and do whatever he can for "educational purposes" - clearly, the account is intended to reflect some competitive spirit of the game. And lastly, if Danya did not think it was a big deal, why didn't he simply state that he used it multiple times? Why did he lie and conjure up this weird scenario?
he actually demonstrates way more ....he shows why no one wants to talk to him at all about anything At this point much respect @chesswithmustreader to endure this person for such an amount of time without starting to threaten him :D
@@ultrasound1459hopefully moderator of the channel will block you on this channel because of spamming same message over all conversation branches here.
Kramik: "Where is your proof? Let's not be general, let's be very concrete and precise." Also Kramnik: "I have the proof, trust me, I know what I saw and it is a fact and if you don't believe me I will show it in court."
We literally caught Daniel red-handed using an engine during a live rated match which he publicly apologized for. The problem is you think cheating for education is acceptable and I think that's a terrible precedent for Gaming website to allow this and a terrible example for children. not just bad for Esports in general but bad for society.
@nuorotikc There should never be exceptions for cheating my friend because that sets a bad precedent and example. like Kramnik I've only ever created 1 active account. I'm positive you can't say the same because you think there's nothing wrong with using multiple accounts like your favorite streamer. You think if that corrupt fraudulent website allows something that means its not cheating.
@@cooloutaci wouldn't call what Daniel did cheating since he looked at Position with the engine that was in the opening, while the game was already way down the line. So since he didn't could get an advantage on his Opponent, it was a fair play violation and not cheating. Still could be punished and maybe should be.
Krammnik just doesn't let anyone respond completely before interrupting them each and everytime. This is so childish and not at all professional. And then he cries no one responds to him or calls him on their channels. Maybe try respecting them and let them complete talking? He also keeps mentioning his views as facts. That is so wrong. His views are his views, not facts.
Chess basically completely died off a year ago and has been in a downward spiral since Magnus accused Hans neiman. It's now a game only children take seriously.
@@cooloutac There are many (also adult) people who play chess who have barely heard of Hans Niemann or don´t know who he is at all. And there are also enough people who follow chess because of the game itself and not for the Drama. It sounds like you get that impression because there are many videos made about all the Drama in chess but that doesn´t mean that that´s all there is.
@hermionelovegood9814 because they probably follow OTB chess. 94% of active title players don't even play in online tournaments because they think it's a joke.
@@cooloutac can't compare, man, a reasonable guy like Magnus with non-sensical looney; only children? hmm, maybe, considering how much younger GM's became; careful with your doom and gloom; chess is booming; just take a look at recent Paris blitz spectacle
I dunno, do you think that special was funnier than chapelle's Clarence Bixby character, the black white supremacist who was blind and no one told him he was black...and divorced his white wife for loving a black guy once he found out? I'm not sure if anything is funnier than that, but Kramnik is really trying to get there.
Did I just hallucinate or did this lunatic actually say that he is talking with lawyers and considering suing Naroditsky? What kind of mind-boggling inverted reality is he living in..
“It’s amusing how Kramnik is eager to ask questions and get answers, but when people expect the same from him, he just blocks them.” I was blocked as well. Keep up the good work Mustreader!
The problem with Kramnik is that he always uses facts, statistics, and scientific terms to make himself look impressive, but he forgets something very important about science. If you propose a theory or a question, that theory needs to be falsifiable-there should be a way to disprove it. This is the first principle of speaking scientifically. If it’s not falsifiable, then what you’re saying isn’t scientific. But with Kramnik, you can’t use any arguments against him because he’s made himself 'bulletproof' with a bunch of big, meaningless words. He says, 'Everything I say is a fact. Everything I say is true. Everything I say is proven.' YOU have to prove yourself to me. Well then, master, please tell us-how EXACTLY can we disprove your theory?
My "scientific" theory is this: 20 billion light years away sits the devil. This is falsifiable because we can develop a better telescope (currently having a limit of ~15bln years) to see there's nobody there. Falsifiability is not necessary for the theory to be scientific.
Vladimir says things like "I think hes cheating, the probability that im incorrect is like 0,001. Its just math" and then plays the victim saying he never accused anyone because he mentioned the "slight probability" that hes incorrect. This guy needs to be humbled so he can understand that the new generation of players who grew up with engines and the ability to play strong oponents whenever they wanted surpassed the old generation
@@witheringhs7766Oh come on. Danya has a higher FIDE rating in rapid than Kramnik. Let that sink in. He's a better rapid player not only online, but also over the board... Sorry if that doesn't fit your narrative. Literally nobody but Kramnik thinks he's a cheater. He's a very strong, 2700 GM.
Talking about Hikaru's streak for example, if you ask for the likelyhood of a new streak of 40+ games is astronomically small. HOWEVER if you take the probability of a streak like this happening within the space of 10000+ games, the probability of a streak existing from random chance alone is around 40% if I remember the calculation correctly.
Listen! In every spoken sentence or video clip there is an intention to present something. If someone is talking directly about something, then it is clear. But if a person asks some "questions", and those "questions" have assumptions in it, YOU CAN NOT CALL THEM QUESTIONS ANYMORE. They are just cleverly smuggled accusations. This kind of behaviour is a well known technique in all propaganda messages. You always need to see the bigger picture and understand the context and intentions. Such accusing questions build a strong, hidden question, that arises from the context, and it is just an accusation. Because it is legally acceptable, many politicians use it, and they are fine, but it has to stop. This is just manipulation!
This is so typical method of russian propaganda. Same school. You don't have to be ACTUALLY right, all you need is to convince the listener that you are right.
Constantly interrupting, and then playing the victim. Kramnik is an actual cockroach. If he shuts up and lets people analyse his arguments he'll have nothing to stand on
When Kramnik mentions facts, he's not stating an opinion... You are jumping to conclusions. Kramnik is first trying to establish the facts (i.e. whether Danya opened Chessbase in 20 seconds or not is a verifiable fact - whether this makes him suspicious is an opinion). Kramnim didn't even defend his opinion because people keep trying to claim his facts aren't true (even though they are). So, all Kramnik has to do is say they are wrong because they aren't agreeing to the facts. If you want to refute Kramnik you would have to point out why his facts are irrelevant, not claim they are untrue when they are true. For example, Kramnik does this against Danya's factual claim that he can pull up his Chessbase game history; Kramnik dismisses this because his argument is anyone can modify the data and it's not necessary Danya must use Chessbase whenever he uses an engine to cheat: notice Kramnik isn't claiming Danya lacks a game history to make this point? One way a Danya supporter may have refuted Kramnik as to the load up time is that the margin of error is too slim that there can be other reasonable explanations such as the depreciation of the equipment, slower processing speed due to recording + call in the background, or Danya's email esponse that speedrun accounts are noncompetitive therefore his engine use in them do not point to cheating in normal games or prized tournaments. All of these points are debatable and will further the discussion.
A year ago when all this saga began(I was on Kramnik's side and felt that he was really bringing something to the discussion (especially regarding how to handle cheaters on Titled Tuesday etc...) but now, he is sort of a character of himself, nitpicking and avoiding actual talking points that would lead to a resolution. I am not a fan of the people he criticized, so I am completely neutral, but man is he annoying It is extremely sad what he has done to his name and image in the last few months. A world champion is something like a god-figure whose statue should be in the pantheon, but walking around and barking "cheater" at everyone who plays online, severely reduced him in my eyes.
Kramnik's legacy will likely end up like Fischer's. People will remember his chess, but everyone will act like his later years insanity didn't happen unless it is directly mentioned.
Greg, you should have grilled him more. Asked him 3 models on which he has based his “statistical insight” to reach an irrefutable bubble. I wish you grilled more. “Vast majority agrees with me” (which majority? He lost 60-40 on a Russian channel WHICH IS A FACT, LOL), “It is a fact, I am factual” blah blah. Words alone are way too vague. Also, what happened in Martinez’s case? What made him have sleepless nights after a fair and square defeat at his hands? Did he ever care to apologise or retract his egregious insinuations? Man gets away with a lot of things. Great work nevertheless.
Can't believe Kramnik said that Danya's latest Csquared podcasts happened before danya-kramnik-ilya on levitov. Danya literally referred to multiple moments in the levitov interview.
@@matteopriotto5131 except according to Kramnik he uses Leela, not Stockfish... or at least he thinks Danya used Leela for that infamous Bc8 move. Which he didn't actually make... 😂
I remember when an IM (or FM?) revealed Kramnik violated chesscom’s rules by using another player’s account in Titled Tuesday, Kramnik posted a video response where he said he’s going to look into that IM’s games. That made it abundantly clear personal grievance played a big role in who he went after, it’s just McCarthyism in chess form
@@gautam-narula Not really. It was Kramnik who revealed himself in the comments to that video. He of course could deny any "accusations" as Danya did. But he showed himself as a man of honor, it was for real a gesture of an honest man.
@@some-basic-channel an honest nut. No doubt he really believes himself to be logical and factual. He just doesn't understand his own limitations. From that video where he said it was impossible for hikaru'a editors to add an eval bar quickly - which was completely wrong, but he was totally convinced. Because he doesn't know how to do it, it must be impossible. That's why he'll never admit he's wrong, he doesn't have the capacity to actually understand that he's wrong.
@@MrPatchtkennedy Maybe he's wrong. Maybe you are. Why can't you be wrong? And if you are wrong, should everyone assume that you can NEVER be right anymore?
@@hermionelovegood9814 exactly. Greg clearly hasn’t finished speaking, and is STILL speaking when Kramnik “thought Greg has finished”. If Kramnik wants people to listen to him he needs to fix how he treats and approach people first. Just because he was the World Chess Champion, it doesn’t give him the rights to belittle people nor the rights to demand people to answer him. Respect was earned, but he has now thrown it down the drain
I don't know about the whole story. But just judging on this video, I can see that the interviewer has a very disgustingly dishonest approach. It seems that he has already made his decision about disagreeing to whatever Kramnik says, regardless of anything. No good faith or anything constructive in his opinion.
Listening to kramnik talk is hilarious because he’ll use language like “proof” and “fact” for his beliefs and then concede on those exact same points less than a minute later
Under Kramnik's pinned comment, I explained that "episode" has multiple meanings and argued Greg probably misinterpreted Kramnik by assuming "episode" was a part of a series like Star Wars Episode 1 instead of "episode" as in a singular event of a sequence such as "he had a mental episode." I explained how because Kramnik was a psychology major and familiar with how "episode" is used in academia, especially when it's about mental events, he probably meant it in the second kind. So, "episode of a video" refers to a specific event in the video. Then I pointed out when Greg wrote he had linked the "episodes of the videos" just as Kramnik requested, this clearly shows what Kramnik had actually had in mind and Greg misinterpreted him. That is, "episodes of the videos" when episode is used like 'Episode 1 of Star Wars' does not make any sense, but makes completely sense in the second kind. The coward must have read my comment and proceeded to edit his comment and changed the sentences until we were left with this abomination of a sentence instead, "the links are to concrete episodes of your fifteen-investigation videos." Apparently this clown thinks if he changes the sentence so that Kramnik is a TV producer making a new season about Danya's investigation and each video is a part of the 15 episodes per season, then he can somehow convince people that Kramnik meant "episode" just as how Greg misinterpreted him. This is the type of person you guys are dealing with. Someone who won't own up to a mistake and would rather change the narrative to best suit his needs. As Kramnik put it succinctly, a liar and a manipulator.
I thought Kramnik's expectation was pretty clear. They discussed it earlier in the video as well that he'd like people to have links to see the specific time when Danya tried running the engine analysis, so yes he didn't just mean the entire videos. And I just checked and you can see the comment has been edited, which really shouldn't have been done after Kramnik has replied. So yes, the integrity is completely gone. Although tbf I don't think it was being chased. I watched the previous video recapping the Levitov debate and he seemed pretty balanced but here the mask was completely gone. I almost stopped watching when he just couldn't bring himself to concede Vlad's point that he hadn't done the analysis in 21 seconds, even although he claimed he had. Just chasing Hikaru speedrun / Botez viewers at that point...
I think the real winner in all this is Mustreader. Got a sub from me. As for Kramnik's accusations, I'm not convinced, and I would like Danya to put out more speed run videos so I'd prefer if this whole thing was dropped..
1:08:40 - I'm excerpting a text from elsewhere: "A psychopath is someone who uses manipulation, violence and intimidation to control others and satisfy selfish needs. They can be intelligent and highly charismatic, but display a chronic inability to feel guilt, remorse or anxiety about any of their actions." People can argue about words but understand the deeper underlying meaning.
@@chessgains8075 He didn't sad that he sad that Daniel language was much more hursh, but it doesn't matter because hi is strong man and he can handle it.
@@predragnikolic3040 He is a weak minded individual, that is completely out of touch with his emotions, lashing out at players that beat him in online chess, that he seems aren’t on his level, which is completely overestimated in his delusional mind.
@ziganovak9526 If he is weak he won't do this, he is fighting online cheating alone, with all the consequences, to do that you must be very strong individual, very onest as well.If nouone does nothing, with all the technology it will become treath to otb chess, it is very serious issue, and it must be taken seriously and now..
Regarding the 21 second vs 23 or 24 second. The point is not whether Daniel did it in 21 seconds or not at that moment. It's more about "Did Daniel demonstrate that it is possible to do so for him in the cut out time in video", which most people would agree that "If Daniel can casually enter the moves and it took 23/24 seconds, it should certainly be possible to enter it faster than 21 seconds"
Other streamers did that and entered both around 20 moves in 24 seconds. So For Danya, it was easy to enter just 8 moves and enable the engine. Moreover, Danya said he has a history of entering moves in Chess Base, and he could show it to Kramnik (and everybody, during the battle on Levitov chess), but Kramnik sad "No no no".
But he did not "demonstrate that this is possible". All what we know now - he is clearly can win in bullet on fractions of second but was unable to reproduce his own actions within 21 seconds limit.
@@some-basic-channel Are all Kramnik's fans this scummy? Its not Daniel's responsibility to prove that he can do it in 21 seconds. Its Kramnik's repsonsibility to prove that he can't. You don't prove innocence. You prove guilt. Grow some integrity.
@@JD-xz1mx But... he ALREADY couldn't. He tried and couldn't. I don't understand what you want from me. To forget about it? To ignore it? You know that when you close your eyes, the world around you doesn't disappear, right?
Hey guys, it’s Greg. What’s your opinion of how the podcast went? And whom do you support in this matter: Kramnik or Danya? Looking forward to your comments!
@@protpvp1 I think it's okay to still have people who remain as neutral as possible. He wants to get as many people as possible on his podcast so he shouldn't burn any bridges.
How does it feel to be a friend to a cheater, don’t you have any morality for shamelessly defending a cheater and muddying the waters when your friend got caught red handed. You know deep down he has done lot of sus actions.
Ok so these are the doubts I have and some conclusions based on what was said: 1. After listening to Kramnik it feels more like he does indeed believe that he's being as neutral as physically possible for him, as mentioned by him in this discussion that Danya was the one to first take up stern tone and the one who first refused to talk privately even at request of Kramnik, now it wasn't conclusive from this discussion that that was the case, so I can't say for sure what is true, but I can give benefit of doubt to Kramnik until I hear Danya's side of same timeline, if someone knows it then pls let me know if Danya ever spoke on the exact timeline. Now of course I'm not sure if Kramnik is including his insinuations in twitter which were long before recent drama which is mentioned by Danya in C2 podcast but if he is then it's very interesting, cause then I want to know the "full" timeline, basically to get to the bottom of "who was harsh first" and "who burnt the bridge first" 2. Kramnik needs to learn how to talk, especially when he's trying to appeal to a larger audience, he was being very disrespectful to greg by interrupting him frequently, I understand that he feels deeply about this matter but it should not go to a point where you are impeding your own point from getting across by getting in the way of genuine doubts and conversation. (For those who stopped midway, greg does interject Kramnik seriously about this and after that point the discussion is much more watchable and very interesting too, so if you are offput by this, just know that it gets better) 3. Kramnik is really being stubborn about the most meaningless things in the discussion like the 20 secs vs 24 secs discussion, nobody needs to listen to that, completely useless and besides the point discussion, it neither establishes that Danya cheats or that he doesn't, yet takes up a significant portion of mental energy from both greg and himself and time of this video, he said very very valid things later on which probably nobody will listen except those that do believe him already, because he's being this extremely unreasonable person. Please Kramnik, focus on the main points that "prove" that Danya cheats, not on the points that make you look like you don't have anything useful to say. Pls learn to ignore minor details which don't add to anything. 4. The point about speedrun account is completely valid imo, if someone has some valid counter then pls let me know, because from the perspective of person playing against these GMs or any masters for that matter, not just Danya on speedrun accounts is actually thinking either they are garbage at game or they faced a cheater and that ruins their entire experience of playing that game and probably their mood that day, and that is not hard to shake off even if you learn later on that it was speedrun account. Chesscom needs to put a clear indicator on user profiles , and I don't mean when you go to user profile, I mean like when you accept a game you should be aware that it's a speedrun account like lichess does for bots. So I completely agree with Kramnik here that for the other person it's definitely a competitive game( I'm ignoring the fact that this still doesn't do anything to prove Danya is cheater because he openly did it and made his intentions clear when doing so, from his perspective what he's doing is morally acceptable so he's not doing it out of intent to cheat but to teach) 5. I completely agree with Kramnik and Greg that Kramnik should not be the one doing what he's doing, he says he's forced to which I can understand given no big platform (chesscom and fide) is taking him seriously and his methods are forced (which I don't agree with because there's imo definitely something better than what he's doing) , either way there should be a 3rd party which is independent and dedicated to anti cheating and they do their own thing independently. But of course if what he says is true and again idk, but if Danya did burn the bridges first and chesscom did not cooperate at all, then maybe it makes sense? Idk I'm not sure about this. 6. During his chess game he does joke about his own terminology and trope, so I believe he understands how he is seen outside his bubble and he chooses to do what he does, potentially in good faith, at least I hope so for greater good, but also for greater good I hope that there is proper agency which does this and not him. Sorry for long message but I am genuinely interested in seeing there be sane discussions about important topics instead of pushing the harsh levels up on both sides.
Kramnik and his fanboys should learn the very simple legal rule: if you can't prove something definitely, you do not prove it at all. And if you accuse someone of a serious transgression and fail to prove it definitely, while hurting that person's reputation, it falls under the legal definition of defamation. If Naroditsky or Nakamura files a lawsuit, Kramnik has next to zero chance of winning it. Even in the U.S. where standards for defamation are looser. There is too much evidence proving that Kramnik said something he can't prove about Naroditsky (which means that legally those are untrue statements about Naroditsky) and that hurt Naroditsky. If it ever gets to testimony pretty much all chess community experts and top players would testify in favor of Naroditsky. Honestly, Kramnik has next to zero chance of walking away from a case like that without losing a ton of money. To anyone familiar with the law the case is pretty clear. People who support Kramnik, on the other hand, seem to be the usual conspiracy theory crowd who rallies behind any guy who challenges nebulous malicious "establishment" (in particular case "chess mafia").
Good job, Greg. I think in the last 30 minutes you got some good responses from Kramnik that we hadn't heard from him before. While I still do not agree with his approach, it did give more insight into why he is doing this.
If you think you saw your neighbor doing something strange and possible illegal on his backyard, the answer is not to get a sign in front of your neighbor's house saying "I think the owner is a criminal and he won't answer my questions". What do you think people walking around would think of the owner of that house? How is this not harassment? If you have concerns you just go to the authorities. Kramnik is not the authority.
My empathy with people can only go so far. I actually felt for Kramnik in the beginning. Being in a paranoid state is rough I'd imagine. But this is turning into pure sadism. He stopped going after Hikaru when he shrugged and laughed it off and continued to torture Danya for months after he showed signs of clear mental distress and a willingess to communicte and solve the issue. He's clearly searching for people he can inflict the most emotinoal damage to and then keeps piling on the more upset they get. It's pure evil behavior and has nothing to do with "finding the truth". If it was, he wouldn't have backed out of the Hikaru confrontation. Unlike Danya, Hikaru provided no counter arguments or proofs of any kind and yet he was satisfied with the situation and decided not to further "investigate"? Nope, I don't buy it. This is again clearly about finding people he can bully and then do it relentlessly. And now *he* wants to sue Danya for emotional damage?? Yep my sympathy is completely gone. He's just a disgusting person.
It seems like Kramnik has learnt some phrases from Dany's answers and uses them against him. Kramnik says that he defends his name? But, to be honest, it feels like he is just taking his own medicine...
I found this to be insane that the interviewer says that the constant minimising window in the reflection which looks like it has a chess board on it which is what some engines look like should be believed to be OBS 😂🤡 I think the more obvious conclusion is that it is an engine. Why would someone open and minimise OBS 15 times during a game, esp during the most pivotal points of the game. People are bending over backwards to attempt to justify Naroditsky’s cheating. It’s shameful on the interviewer’s part really sorry to say.
I really do not have a horse in this ract, but what exactly am I supposed to take out of that blurry reflection? Which monitor is that? How does it relate to other screens? What exactly am I looking at? It could have been what Kramnik says, sure - but a dozen other explanations make as much sense. And what about the fact that the presumably the least interesting part was edited out of a video? The dude sitting in silence entering the moves. Why would you keep that in the video posted for entertainment? And why was the most damning part left in? The part where Danya actually admits to using an engine? Why would you keep that part in if you wanted to hide “cheating”? How is it all a proof of anything?
You require proof beyond reasonable doubt. Then you'd never catch any cheater unless they're extremely stupid. His online performance is world top level, far exceeding his proved strength in real life. Risk reward analysis shows he has great incentive to play at top level as a pure content creator. And he has virtually no risk of being caught. Kramnik's case presents a few valid suspicious points about danya. Danya's lack of participation otb and refusal to play kramnik in real life for fear of "what if bad performance by chance", these don't look good
@@ethanguo4219 You can go to any other chess RUclipsr video and - just as an exercise - convince yourself that they are cheating, and then try to look for evidence. You’ll find plenty. Weird looks, blurry reflections, strange cuts, weird pauses, odd calculation monologues. Everything can become suspicious if you’re emotionally attached to the idea that it is. Now the online vs real life performance - if granted -would be the only interesting avenue for investigation - but then again you need a solid “online vs real” benchmark among GMs, not just declare a single datapoint as odd. Also Daniel not wanting to legitimise this trial by voluntarily participating in it is not strange to me at all. Oh... and “proof beyond reasonable doubt” - what an odd approach to justice, right?
@@ethanguo4219 You can go to any other chess RUclipsr video and - just as an exercise - convince yourself that they are cheating, and then try to look for evidence. You’ll find plenty. Weird looks, blurry reflections, strange cuts, weird pauses, odd calculation monologues. Everything becomes suspicious if you’re emotionally attached to the idea that it is. Now the online vs real life performance - if granted -would be the only interesting avenue for investigation - but then again you need a solid “online vs real” benchmark among GMs, not just declare a single datapoint as odd… Also Danya not wanting to legitimise this which trial by voluntarily participating in it is not strange to me at all. Oh... and “proof beyond reasonable doubt” - what an odd approach to justice, right?
The biggest problem with what Kramnik is doing is that he fails to make any powerful arguments that are hard to contest. It's more like he's throwing spaghetti against the wall. If you think someone's cheating online, don't mention the notion that he's farming rating points by playing in local live tournaments where he's mentoring some of the participants. Don't point out moves he's thinking about out loud (but doesn't actually play) from a game where he later makes several inaccuracies that a cheater wouldn't make. Don't use some eye movements to make claims about how his room must be arranged that you can't actually prove (and could never prove since we don't have time machines). None of these are strong arguments that someone's cheating, but since Kramnik uses all of these, it's very hard to take him seriously and gives the impression that there is some type of vendetta going on rather than a good-natured public "investigation". Proof would be having video of him playing online chess games with an engine open. Stronger but still circumstantial evidence would be to provide PGNs from a large sample of games where he plays at an abnormally high strength (with someone that plays as often as Danya over so many years, this should not be hard to do). All Kramnik has are a bunch of vague suspicions with very weak arguments to back them up. That he's discussing all of this rather than actual anomalous game results speaks volumes about how seriously Kramnik takes his "research" and how open he is to the idea that he could be wrong.
That's only a problem if you're assuming his goal is to prove beyond a reasonable doubt or something. Maybe he just thinks that this meets the bar of reasonable suspicion? To be fair to Kramnik, he did include a video of Danya playing an online chess game with engine open. By your own lights, Kramnik should be taken seriously. A further point is it's not as if Magnus had a stronger cumulative case against Hans, yet he was taken seriously. Whatever our standards for reasonable suspicion are, we should apply them consistently. But I agree that Kramnik should lead with that statistical evidence (if he even has any).
My point is that what he's doing is tarnishing someone's public image, and if you don't want to face criticism back, your arguments should be as strong as possible. I wouldn't use that to describe Kramnik's work. True, he did prove he used it to conduct analysis of the play earlier in the game. But that'd be proving the sky is blue: this was already public knowledge, and not proof he ever used an engine to give him moves for the current position during a game. Those are very different things. Again, a wall of spaghetti full of loosely connected things, nowhere near conclusive to the point where you hold a public trial.
Maybe we only disagree what warrants posting multiple videos and persuing this publicly as much as Kramnik is. I think the Kramnik's work shows absolutely nothing at all that concludes Daniel ever used engine analysis to assist his moves in a rated or tournament game, period. If that's the case, Kramnik was wrong to draw such attention to a nothingburger. If you think I'm wrong in that, that would be the extent of the disagreement.
@cymerdown So you agree with everything I've said so far? I can see how this is a nothingburger from your perspective but I can also see how there's reasonable suspicion from Kramnik's perspective.
-Он уложился в отведенное время ? -Нууу блин пара секунд туда сюдаа, а какая вообще разница ? -Да упокойся, его никто не посадит если ты признаешь факт - было или нет?скажи честно , просто скажи уложился или нет? -Нууууу неееет , это же ничего не дакажет если скажу, он почти уложился поэтому я ему верю -Блин , чел просто скажи он уложился (когда пытался это сделать СПЕЦИАЛЬНО - наверное если ты специально это делаешь на скорость ты немного перегонишь даже по времени, но никак не отстанешь отстанешь но окей....) и мы пойдем дальше , лол) -Ну неееет , люблю Данечку , очень объективен, поэтому не могу ответить на вопрос четко Просто мальчик, ситуация с крамником и народицким пройдет , а ты так и останешься дешевым, предвзятым интервьюером, который свою позицию не может убрать куда подальше и слушать тех гостей которых сам зовет Уважай ты свою аудиторию в конце концов, она сама сделает выводы, дай ей одно мнение + дай другое , оба человека у тебя побывали, если ты одному учтиво киваешь , а другому усмешку после каждой фразы кидаешь то сорян , чет ты недопонял в том деле которым занимаешься"типа серьезно".... Напряги ты извилинки, что аудитория у тебя тупая такая , без твоих намеков что - то не поймет ? Если итак поймет , то нафига нужнен цирк этот ? а если и правда не поймет , то тогда это манипуляция уже, упс, за что боролся - на то и напоролся, дружок:(
Kramnik keeps looking to his left... And right... What is he looking at?? He's acting like a baby - "They were mean to me, so I'll be mean to them!" Sad man. Pathetic.
It is not smart to go into a discussion about the 23/21 seconds, since Kramnik is obviously right about the statement. Danya said, he could do it in 20 seconds. He could not. You can say, that it is within the margin of error, but that is not Kramniks point. So any discussion about that, you will lose. Smarter to just acknowledge the obvious. Danya didn't manage it in the time he said he could manage it. After you give Kramnik that fact, then you can argue the other stuff about margin of error and so on. But Kramnik is very detail oriented, very black/white, so just acknowledge stuff like that. I also believe Danya is not cheating, but when you debate someone so black/white, you need to acknowledge the initial claim that Kramnik has. That he did not do it in 20 seconds. Which is correct. THEN start the debate whether it is important or not. I think that is the issue people debating Kramnik runs into. They can't understand how Kramnik is hyperfocused on small things that might have many explanations. Kramnik finds these things. And just take them on one by one. Acknowledge the factual part of his argument. Then you can talk about possibilities and values after that.
@@GAOMasterread it again, he understands the mental state. 20 vs 23 is immaterial to a normal person, but to Kramnik it is "evidence". This is actually how he thinks.
@@KF1 Read the OP again... The point isn't about what is considered evidence but acknowleding the factual events. When you want to solve a murder, you first establish the list of facts, then you argue why such and such is a suspect because such and such facts. People in the comments, yourself included, keep conflating the FACTS as the CLAIMS and assume they must be mutually inclusive.
It's jaw dropping just how much of Kramnik's deluded interpretations of things done and said is based on his inability to comprehend and lack of understanding of basic English terminology. It started with "cherry picking" where, admittedly, it was somewhat funny to hear him say "of course I'm cherry picking because I'm speaking about specific things". From there (at that point it stopped being funny) it continued with "bad faith" and "good faith" where it couldn't be any clearer that he has no earthly understanding of what it means and worse... stands for! Just to add here that going on the Levitov Podcast with the premeditated plan of lying and I'm paraphrasing: "I just said things, it didn't matter what, in order to get Danya to show his room". It's almost hilarious to think that this might as well be the very definition of doing something in bad faith! Here too... dear Kramnik, Danya is saying wicked not weak! Seriously... seek life elsewhere. Un-F'ing-believable.
94% of active title plays don't play in online tournaments cuz they think it's infested with cheaters my friend. Fabiano said half the people cheat and ratings are meaningless are you going to call him crazy too? Kramnik is retired so he doesn't care and the other players might not agree with his methods but they agree that cheating is a huge problem in online chess is simply not viable. I can understand why this community of naive kids just believe their favorite cheating streamer but for adults in this community to not care and take the time to bash him is extremely suspicious .
@@nuorotikc Smurfing is cheating and that's what he built his career on kid. You're a cheater too if you use more than 1 active account in rated games. It takes someone with a very low moral character and unsporting attitude to condone omething like that. engine use goes hand in hand.
@@cooloutacit’s not smurfing it’s approved official educational accounts where ratings are refunded. Someone using them to teach players does not insinuate low moral character, that is a ridiculous take
I really wanted to give the guy the benefit of the doubt and understand his reasoning, but it is impossible. Kramnik is totally delusional and above all very rude and you deserve extra credit for keeping the interview going when after only 14 minutes into the conversation it was clear that Vlad would shout over anything you present him, simply based on his "fact checking" and there is absolutely nothing you can show him that will make him even remotely consider he is in the wrong here
Workshopping an idea here. There’s a few things going on here but a way to summarize from Kramniks perspective is this: in the early days of civilization there comes a point where people realize we need some type of authority force to keep criminals in line. And if there was a hesitancy to create such a force, you could expect to see cases of citizens take up vigilante work and they would very often pick on the wrong suspects due to a lack of of structure of investigations, biases, bad days, and dozens of other reasons. The creation of an established authority force would put alot of these people out of work as they could also be subject to punishment. For better and worse (admittedly I don’t see the better right now) Kramnik is essentially one of the early vigilantes standing on his principles and taking up a cause he believes in. And if no one cares enough to establish that force that would take up this fight against cheaters we’ll continue to see this until he finds something else he cares enough to pursue. Fascinating time in chess, unfortunate that he picked out someone that so many of us have been positively influenced by
Greg I am extremely sorry I will not watch the entirety of your video as I literally cannot bear the sheer rudeness of your guest. This behavior is an affront to both the grandmaster title let alonme the title of the world champion. However I find your channel a very nice addition to the chess media sphere and I will be following your content thank you.
Appreciate the video, but this is the last I can take of this "drama". By now it's clear that Kramnik has some agenda, what it is only he knows, and he's willing to commit morally questionable actions and lie to push it forward. This is no longer drama, it's just some guy lying and accusing people based on his own arbitrary criteria
Every time he says "I'm not.." you can hear it in your mind he says "I am" (attacking you). When he rebutts with "I'm sorry.." you can also tell "you are the one who should be sorry" (that I'm attacking you)
"I'm sorry, Gregg, but 23 is bigger than 21." 😂 Validimir F****ing Kramnik He doesn't even get the point. Watching Kramnik is both funny and sad at the same time.
Will somebody explain to Kramnik? OPEN is not the opposite of MINIMIZED. A program can be OPENED and MINIMIZED at the same time. Opened means it is running (either in the front, or in the background). What he is arguing about is MINIMIZED vs. MAXIMIZED (or brought to front).
I've been pretty sympathetic towards hans. Feeling like the chess world did him pretty dirty for his wrong actions as a kid. But your comment is spot on. My support for hans may fade because of his relationship to Crazy Uncle Krammy.
@@bmike410 After what happened to him because of Magnus´s accusations I would expect him to criticise Kramnik's methods. But apparently, he doesn´t have a problem with it when it happens to other people.
Vladimir was calm while mustreader was simply beside himself and jumping out of his skin. How does it feel for you to see chess turn into a game only children take seriously my friend? It's just another cheating Esport but this time without Japan and South Korea to support them. I think huge layoffs are going to be coming for that website. The player base in the past two years have dropped off the face of the Earth. When as it was 94% of active title players don't play it online tournaments and they can't get any major sponsorships according to the CEO who said he will be leaving the company in a few years
@WallyHays I don't know what that has to do with him being calm and collected. Just the fact mustreader was wearing sunglasses constantly looking down made him seem petty and bitter. You can tell they despise and hate ktamnik because he is crashing their world, while kramnik doesn't look like he hates anybody. They accuse him of personally attacking people because for them it's very personal. All this time I thought mustreader was just trying to be partial to the website because he was hoping to partner with them in some way. But this video shows it goes deeper than that and it was uncomfortable to watch.
@@cooloutac Someone who is "calm and collected" doesn't frenetically talk over someone else. Continuously interrupting someone is a literal definition of NOT being "cool, calm, and collected." I don't care if Greg was wearing a scuba suit and a tutu with a luchador mask, Kramnik was not calm, nor was he cool, and he most certainly was not collected.
I believe Kramnik must know that his innocent "I'm just asking questions and will apologise if I'm wrong" attitude is not adequate. Even if he did apologise at one point in time, there would still be damage from the investigation. There will always be people left who think he had a point and should have pursued it more. One cannot simply create a rumour about another chess player cheating and believe it is not a big deal.
To be fair he didn't create it. Danya did the violation himself. Kramnik is merely highlighting it and running to what he believes is a logical conclusion.
@@Crashawsome Actually, exactly the same technically. Both fair play violations. Which is pretty much exactly why Kramnik is gunning for not so much Danya per se but the hypocrisy. But you do understand the circumstances around why he was using that account yeah? Just seems odd to say it was "FAR FAR worse" if you do.
@@MrFootofDavros What "violation"? Are you talking about the technicality of using an engine to analyse another portion of an educational while the game hadn't concluded yet? That's that what Kramnik is about, he is alleging actual cheating against him and others. There is no proof that Danya gave him actual reasons to start his investigation.
@@coolcat23 Yes, that's the technicality. You aren't allowed to open an engine during active game. The exact wording is "Do not use chess engines, software of any kind, bots, plugins, browser extensions, or any tools that analyze positions during play."
Greg, you promised me to publish links to the episodes I refer to from the videos of mine but you didnt,would have been an important part of our dispute. Because that would expose your and your client 😉 manipulations.
Now its late already, after a day or two,obviously
It was promised to have links to CONCRETE EPISODES that I mention, refuting their lies, not FULL videos, it doesnt make any sense, everyone knows the videos anyways. Cheap, Greg
I even offered to send exact cuts from those videos of episodes we mention in this conversation. Was reassured it is not needed, will be done by him. Just showing you real faces of those "opponents"
But whaever tricks in front
The truth will prevail
Dear Vladimir Borisovich, as discussed, we've published the links to the videos referred to by you in the video description. You may have missed them - they are in the description of the video under "Kramnik's videos discussed in the podcast". We did everything as agreed. Please fact-check before accusing anyone of anything.
The links are to concrete episodes of your fifteen-video investigation. If you want us to provide the exact time-codes from those episodes, we can do so - please send them to me here or in DMs on Telegram.
And yes, you have offered me to send the exact cuts from those videos to insert them into the podcast, but I have told you on the call that we will not insert any graphics into this episode to be able to publish it as soon as possible, because otherwise video editing would have taken a long time, and you have agreed to that. I can publish the video where you say it if you want
😉
@@MustreaderChess never mind, everything is clear for me about your ethics and methods, go on serving futher, I go on with fighting against lies and manipulations, cheers my friend 🙌
@@VBKramnik Considering the fact you've accused me of lying without even checking basic facts, for you to accuse someone is an automatic reaction if they disagree with you. It looks like you're not fighting lies, but just spreading them, and once it turns out your "FACTS" were untrue, you say "never mind". Classic gaslighting.
You cannot fight cheating using lies, manipulation, and cyberbullying. Worst of all, this discredits the anti-cheating movement in general. This will make it harder for the chess world to fight cheaters in future. You just feed your ego behaving in this way. You can (and probably will) continue doing this, but don't be surprised if the number of your followers gradually dwindles over time and you lose relevance. As you like to say, the truth will prevail.
@@MustreaderChess 👏 bravo maestro
Adios 😊
See, kids? Kramnik is always right, and the whole world just wants to mess with him!
You need help
Are you wearing the sunglasses so he can't track our eye movement during the last game?
actually keeping in mind that camera angle it's quite real. so funny people still talking about movements while the main strange was Danya's bishop move candidate when Kramnik made a poll among other GMs and no one found it within 10 seconds and even within 10 minutes.
@@happyrabbit7944 a single move like that proves absolutely nothing. In his "analysis" he conveniently leaves out the rest of the game. It is of low quality and Danya almost lost. I'm honestly getting a bit tired at people buying into this bs. It's like claiming the moon landing was fake by pointing at some weird shadows, implying that whoever faked it is an idiot and would leave such easy-to-spot clues.
This host is a bum clown. Deleting any comments pointing towards danyas guilt
@@martinpaddle Lol. It proves everything for professionals for sure.
@@happyrabbit7944 no, individual moves don't prove anything. If you have a sequence of 10 unexplainable moves, several games in a row, then this is suspicious. A single move in an otherwise blunder-filled game is completely irrelevant. Caruana pointed this out, if you are looking for an argument from authority ("proves everything for professionals").
"Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience"
-- Mark Twain
This needs to be top comment
very much agreed :D...I tell this to soo many ppl but they never listen :C
its a world champion players play hes oppening hes good hes not idiot
sure, you are right
100% true. Kramnik shouldn't have taken part in this podcast, where it was clear from the start that the host wouldn’t be interested in data and facts.
Like if you believe Kramnik needs to be held morally responsible for his slanderous accusations.
🤓
I hate like farmers, but.....
fiiiine take my like, this is important
Like if you believe Kramnik is a hero fighting cheating in chess.
@@TheChessTheoretician the man is defending his integrity, his reputation and likely a considerable portion of his livelihood. You must be very young indeed if you can't understand how that could affect a person in the ways Danya states.
There is a new channel called exposing chess cheaters and he is changing the opinion of many people that were thinking exactly what you are thinking now. Check that channel's videos and then think for yourself if it's very suspicious and if people like Naka are acting in a hypocrite way, by defending Danya about the same things he accused others of cheating. Check it yourself before accusing Kramnik in such a way
when the app is minimized, it means it is open, not closed
Schrödinger's Engine.
That’s what they are saying
Exactly
Vladimir deliberately damages people's image but now crys foul when he says this is happening to him. I can't listen to this guy anymore. What a disgrace.
Sounds like Hikaru
@@Meurthsounds like someone don't get any bltches
you mean it doesnt matter if the image is genuine? Like, I am a doctor for instance, and that is true by the way, would it bother you if I bought my license but never studied?
not damaging just asking questions i think you meant to write danya
He's a master gas lighter
Sent the kids away, turned off my phone, told my wife not to bother me and opened a beer. Another Kramnik video!
That’s how you should watch my podcasts!
@@MustreaderChess MustCasts?
@@MustreaderChess❤❤😂😂😂
Dany said in one interview regarding this that Kramnik would lie and when called out on that lie he would deny, when shown proof he would just say something like "lets move on its not relevant." Five minutes in we already have a prime example "he has recorded at least three times as much as me" "it is a fact, lets not move away from a fact if you disagree about it" and then when he is shown to be absolutely wrong with that number "this is not relevant, lets move on"
@@alocii in psychiatry it's called a "pathological liar"
@@jasond.personal5433 That's a bit hyperbolic. Kramnik, while very incorrect and arguing irrationally, is not necessarily meeting criteria for that label. From the evidence we have available it's really only reasonable to say he's leaning into common cognitive distortions, ones that we're all susceptible to (to some degree). Pathological lying is a different story. Let's not misuse clinical labels just because we dislike a behavior.
@@jasond.personal5433 100%! Ive seen the same thing in even worse people than Kramnik (not people i know but like criminal cases and crazy influencers) and unfortunately the only thing to do with them is what Hikaru suggest, dont play along at all. They dont feel shame and wont ever admit they are mistaken. It is unfoetunate when they get into positions of power as Kramnik but it is no use to try talking him into reason. The only positive here is that perhaps a few Kramnik-fanboys actually sees him for what he is, but based on the comments on his own videos it does t seem likely to persuade that many.
@@ItsAsparageese you can't say that and be up-to-date with everything that has happened till now. Lying manipulating and deceiving are the only things he does
@@jasond.personal5433 I've been staying quite up-to-date, but that's not really as relevant as you seem to think it is. Pathological lying is a different thing from Lying A Lot And Doubling Down About It And Leaning Into Cognitive Distortions. I'm speaking as someone pretty literate in psychology and neuroscience; literally none of us have the evidence a licensed clinician would need to diagnose the behavior of pathological lying. _Maybe_ he meets those criteria (I doubt it) but none of us are or will realistically ever be in a position to evaluate that. To call him a pathological liar is to misuse that label. I know I'm being pedantic and I don't mean to pick on you or anything, it's just that this trend of people misusing psychology labels as loose adjectives is just plain not good for society, so I try to educate against it where I can.
Kramnik is a huge jerk, being totally irrational, lying a lot, doing tons of mental gymnastics to double down on his lies, attempting to manipulate people and discourse, and just generally sucking. We can state all these true facts without fudging the definition of a specific clinical symptom as an approximation.
Vladimir, people don't want to invite you because you don't know how to talk to people. You can't just keep talking over people and expect them to want to discuss anything with you. Be respectful, let people talk. Let them finish a sentence and then respond. Secondly, when you yourself are being disproved, you don't seem to be able to agree with facts. You can't pick and choose which facts to stick with and which ones to discard. There is no conspiracy. People simply don't want to discuss with someone who can't hold a respectful conversation.
💯
Most of the time the podcaster was seemingly finishing a sentence and then as Kramnik tries to respond he kept going and sometimes wouldn't stop and could just keep going for minutes straight without giving him time because he always had a lot to say. It definitely was far from formal since no one could be given equal time etc.
Well said
i love Kramnik and agree with him, but you saying right things that could help
Bingo
There is some terminology confusion here, for a program to be minimized it must be open.
An open program can be minimized or not, but a closed program cannot be minimized.
What does minimizing a program mean?
@@zkprintfMinimize to task bar. Desktop operating systems have GUI that usually consists of taskbar, where all running GUI apps are shown. Might be unknown concept to someone who used smartphones for everything.
@@zkprintfhaving the site or app already open / loaded but minimized
@@zkprintf He means to minimize a window on your computer. You can have an application running but the window is minimized. If the application is not running you can't minimize it because it's not running in the first place.
This was *killing* me lol
Please, can Vladimir Borissowitsch let his daughter explain how the computer works?
4:35 "I will give facts, and we should not dispute facts."
That's Kramnik's attitude in a nutshell. He considers what he says "facts" that are not to be disputed.
100%, he doesn't want to have a civil discussion, he wants to be right, no matter if he actually is or not
No, he exactly explains what he means, argue with opinions, not with facts.
Kramnik is the GOAT 🐐 and so Based 🗿📸
The problem is that the facts Kramnik has presented have NOT been disputed. How is that his fault? All Danya and his support group do is deflect and beat around the bush with such discussion like yours, complaining about the manner in which the facts are presented, or anything else besides confronting the facts presented.
LMAO he says its fact that Danya recorded more on him even though it got disputed instantly by Greg. The first few minutes are already gold.
Kramnik is so passive aggressive. Pretending he's not accusing when he openly says there's an engine open on the side.
Everyone knows what to do when you think people are cheating: quit the tournament and resign on the first move
Chill!! He isn't accusing he is just asking questions...BUT ITS VERY CLEAR. /s
@@tylerkay825 yes, that's the legally correct way to do it
"passive aggressive" is a vocabulary of crying gen-z liberals. He's deliberately avoiding a lawsuit.
@@dmitrikonnov922 I'm late Gen-X, not Gen-Z. People of my generation have been using the phrase passive-aggressive since I was a kid. Besides, the term was coined during WWII.
He might be trying to avoid a lawsuit, but it won't help him since he has explicitly said there is an engine on the imagined monitor off to the side of Danya's setup. This is a miscomprehension of the law, just like Kramnik's miscomprehension of statistics.
Greg, I must applaud your effort, this episode was exhausting. Kramnik was barely letting you get your thoughts out and blatantly manipulating every subject. I wouldn't be surprised if this marks the last interview Kramnik gets invited too - he has shown his true colors and no sane person would want to have him as a guest. I wasn't familiar with you before, but I am a fan now!
Absolutely exhausting yes.
It's even exauting to watch it... My respect to Greg for speaking his mind despite everything! And how Kramnik pronounces the word "fact"...
It's def exhausting as a viewer. It's almost comical if it wasn't so painful to watch.
He seems to be either a bully or a victim; whichever serves him at the moment. I'm not aware of any proof of cheating except when Kramnik admitted he violated fair play rules in the not too distant past. That's cheating & it's next-door to other ways to cheat. He already thinks he's above the rules.
LOOOOOOL... "I apologize if I interrupt but I thought you finished the sentence" @41:43
Lmao "Neither am I..." is apparently a complete sentence now @40:33. Such a clown
@@Tobi-pn2xs Kramnik only apologized out of politeness and without understanding the dynamics of the discussion. Most people naturally interrupt others out of habit when others repeat things they have refuted to not waste time and energy. I have broken this section down thoroughly in another thread already but will paste it here as well.
Greg tells Kramnik he believes that Danya thinks Kramnik used "slanderous lies with an evil spirit." Then Greg tries to argue that he also believes Danya is justified for having the belief (the start of this conversation is 39:53 in the video). Kramnik asks Greg to point out the slanderous lies. Greg replies that he can't read Danya's mind, which doesn't make sense because Greg only a moment ago tried to justify Danya's position. Kramnik correctly explains that because Greg was trying to justify Danya's position, Greg needs to explain why. And if Greg can't defend Danya's position then he shouldn't try to justify it! Greg doesn't realize his fallacy and claims Kramnik "interrupted him." Then after lecturing Kramnik about interruption, what is Greg's response...? Greg repeats his first point that he believes this is Danya's opinion while hiding or forgetting the fact that he also tried to justify the position.
What Greg constantly employs in this interview is a fallacy known as motte-and-bailey. Greg presents Danya's arguments, even after Kramnik refutes them, as his own. This is the motte. Kramnik sometimes interrupts Greg and explains how he just refuted them. Then Greg accuses Kramnik of interrupting him and says he's only repeating what Danya said. This is the bailey. In nearly all the times Kramnik "interrupted Greg" it was when Greg was thoughtlessly trying to insert a ridiculous motte without dispute. Seriously, you can rewatch this podcast knowing Greg's trick and you will understand why Kramnik reacts the way he does.
Simply put, this is the formula of the interview: Greg asks a rhetorical question disguised as a response that Danya had already given. Kramnik is well prepared and refutes Danya's position while giving his own. Greg follows up by repeating Danya's position, but as his own argument, that Kramnik had already refuted... So Kramnik annoyingly points out how he already refuted it. Greg then tells Kramnik not to interrupt him and repeats Danya's position, and adds this is what he thinks Danya believes.
@@JNA-h7c I see your point but this whole podcast was not set up as a debate and Greg's role was not to present Naroditsky. He just gave his view on everything.
Meanwhile Kramnik got hung up on things like three second differences, refuses to believe that stream labs is a plausible explanation for the screen that keeps popping up and does not concede about the "Farming" allegations even after it's been made abundantly clear that Naroditsky has been playing those exact tournaments long before the FIDE rule changes.
I agree that Greg could have been more explicit in justifying his beliefs but that is not the role he chose here. In my opinion Kramnik's performance was very weak, just getting hung up on technicalities. I lost the last bit of respect I had for him as a person watching this interview. When Kramnik claims that he refuted the fact that Naroditsky could set up the position in 20s after he did it in 23s, I cannot take that at all seriously. It's not a logical fallacy but that does not make it any less ridiculous
@@Tobi-pn2xs If you honestly believe this podcast was an interview instead of a debate with the appearance of an interview, then I don't know what to say. An interview at least provides enough context to show why the person thinks the way they do. If Kramnik didn't dispute how he wanted specific timeframes or "episodes" of his videos by commenting on here, I wouldn't have known Greg had even linked his full videos in the description because he has it conveniently tucked right in the middle.
The three seconds, farming allegations, etc. are all talking points that Greg brought up because he wanted to use Danya's defense. It is what I mean by Greg's interview questions are actually rhetorical questions disguised as Danya's responses. Because of this, we don't have Kramnik's most updated response since Greg constrains the "interview" to what Danya has already talked about. Instead, you would have to watch Kramnik's videos directly to hear his views.
Whether you disagree or not, Kramnik refutes Danya's response. That is not to say what Kramnik is saying is the truth or he has the last say of an argument but that he simply moved the discussion forward. Then it is Greg's duty to refute Kramnik's refutation to move the discussion if that it is his goal. Greg, however, just repeats Danya's arguments that Kramnik refuted, so when Kramnik "interrupts," Kramnik is explaining how he already addressed this. He is not interrupting to hide information as what many people are implying, but out of impatience due to Greg's incompetent interviewing.
To give you examples from the topics you mentioned. Getting hung up on the three second difference is because in his original video, Greg claimed that Danya started Chessbase under 20 seconds because this is what Danya claimed and Greg didn't fact check. None of the context is shown on the podcast. Kramnik is only arguing that it was 24 seconds and Greg finally concedes it was 23 seconds. But Greg doesn't actually admit his mistake and only implies he had made a mistake by pointing to how Kramnik also made mistakes in the past. Kramnik tells Greg to point to the mistakes, and if he agrees, he will apologize. After, Greg repeats Danya's point. Kramnik kept interrupting Greg because Greg kept trying to sidestep his mistake instead of directly acknowledging that he had made a mistake.
It's the same thing for the farming allegation. Kramnik refutes Danya's argument by stating he wasn't trying to point out Danya's intentions, but only the consequences of his action that because Danya farmed his rating to 2700, it is his opinion that Danya isn't a true 2700. The point of video was to show why Kramnik thought Danya wasn't a true 2700, not why Danya chose to farm. And we saw this happen with Alireza's farming the ratings for a spot in the Candidates after his hiatus to become a fashion designer. No one examined Alireza's intentions or his tournament history to see if this was consistent behavior. People just saw he farmed his rating and thought his spot for the Candidates wasn't earned "the proper way." Whether you accept this explanation or not, it is a refutation of Danya's argument. How does Greg respond? He repeats Danya's point and if iirc, Kramnik coincidentally "interrupts" Greg because he already refuted it.
I am serious. Rewatch the podcast and see this pattern of "interruption" over and over again. The amount of times Kramnik actually cuts Greg off is about the same as when Greg tried doing the same to Kramnik. A real interview is what GothamChess showed. Levy disagrees with Kramnik about many things but he gave him a level of respect to share his opinion by asking honest questions and providing proper context. And guess what? Surprise, surprise, Kramnik doesn't interrupt!
Vlad is wrong and it's that simple. The reason Daniel is pissed with him is because he keeps publicly insinuating he's cheating. He's actually been remarkably polite given the circumstances, so good luck suing him for reacting badly to your trolling Vlad.
Questions no one asks:-
1. Why would a Grand Master need to look at an engine to assess positions after eight (not twenty, eight!) moves against an 1100 rated player. Shouldn't he be able to "educate" his viewers based upon his knowledge being a GM and knowing opening theory?
2. People say "Oh Danya could have done that a couple of seconds faster, so nothing proven re the missing twenty seconds". But no one asks, er why exactly would be busting a gut to try and do it FASTER than that time when he was, you know, trying to show how fast he could open it? Why in the middle of a casual speedrun, whilst interacting with his chat, against a beaten opponent just taking his own sweet time, would he suddenly be in such an incredible rush? Did he forsee he was going ro blurt out he was looking at an engine and mysteriously "lose" the twenty seconds of footage leading up to that?! 😂
I had to go watch the Levitov debate to check the 21 vs 23 seconds thing. It took Danya 11 seconds to enter the moves, with Chessbase already open. And somewhere between 15 and 20 more seconds (i can't really tell) for the engine to load. Kramnik has a strong point: chessbase is so clumsy that you would need for sure more than 20 seconds, it nearly takes 20 seconds alone for it to load. Making it indeed hard to believe that Danya's software was acually chessbase at that time. Danya's game-history on chessbase is irrelevant here, since the claim is that it is probably not chessbase.
Damn man, Kramnik is friggin terrible at communicating his ideas and arguments.
You are wrong! Mustreader theorem: 23=21, also 2+2=5 if danya says so.
This is what I did yesterday as well. For me it was 23/24 seconds. Starting at ~10.28 and finishing at ~10.51. Someone pointed out Chessbase flashes / blinks when the analysis is returned which you can see happening on Danya's screen.
I think you are correct that the implication was that makes it impossible he was using Chessbase as stated but Kramnik looks like he didn't explain that well here because he didn't. He was just arguing that Mustreader wasn't honest in his previous podcast summarising their Russian debate as he claimed Danya proved he could do, when clearly he didn't.
didn't Danya already say that his editor cut out this part because his opponent was thinking for a long time?
Interesting point.
Is it plausible, that chessbase takes different time to load depending on the computer load, the board position and phase of the moon?
I checked the recording of the Levitov's debate, the thing is that he was not in a big rush to enter those 8 moves, he could really do that faster. Besides, during the speed run it is not entirely obvious to me that the engine was completely loaded in 20 seconds, 20 seconds is the duration of the cut, but after that another handful of seconds elapsed before he said exactly what the engine shows.
and why is game history irrelevant, wouldn't it be a solid proof that he used chessbase on that day on exactly that position?
I am not a chessbase user, so I don't know what to make of all that.
@@vladthemagnificent9052 I thought he entered the moves reasonably quickly. Eight moves per player, so sixteen movements entered in ten / eleven seconds.
Funny thing is I haven't seen one person mention the converse. i.e. I see a lot of people saying he could have done it a second or two quicker so no big deal, but not one person has asked why we would be expecting him to enter the moves at breakneck speed in an educational speedrun, whilst he's interacting with his chat, against an opponent taking his own sweet time?
He wasn't expecting that twenty seconds to subsequently get "lost" and to blurt out about using an engine, so why would he even be trying to operate faster than he could when he was actually trying to prove just how fast he could open it...
I’ve watched a lot of Kramnik’s videos on Danya, I wanted to be as objective as possible and give both sides a chance, but after following both sides of the argument for a while it became painfully obvious that Kramnik is not in this for the truth, he merely wants to be right at all costs. No amount of persuading or counter-arguments can convince him of anything.
My question from the very beginning was this: why does Kramnik feel like he is owed an answer by anyone to begin with? And, does he not see that it’s always a circular argument whether he receives an answer or doesn’t?
It goes something like this:
-Kramnik accuses someone of cheating:
Scenario A -> the accused person defends themselves -> Kramnik says that the response is either not convincing enough for him or that the accused person is either lying or not telling the whole truth -> the accused either keeps defending themselves, OR they lash out, OR gives up as they think that no amount of counter-argument is enough -> Kramnik continues reiterating his point that the accused hasn’t provided substantial proof of their innocence and states that it has now become personal since the accused person lashed out at him verbally OR Kramnik says that the accused has stopped responding which makes the initial accusation more truthful.
Scenario B -> the accused person chooses to ignore Kramnik’s accusations -> Kramnik says that not responding is suspicious because a person that doesn’t cheat has nothing to hide OR repeatedly harasses the accused person by posting accusatory content about them which in a roundabout way basically implies that the accused person is either a cheater or a liar-> the accused person get frustrated and responds in either a cordial or not so cordial way -> Kramnik brushes off the response as lies or not completely truthful.
And in both scenarios this goes on and on without any endpoint in sight, the initial goal that Kramnii claims to have which is “truth” get completely lost and overshadowed by the total shitstorm of back and forth or lack thereof. Finally, the accused either gets their reputation stained or totally destroyed (depending on who it is) and Kramnki gets….well what does he get out of it? Publicity? Does it make him feel like his opinion matters? Does it make him feel powerful? Does he feel like the overall good he created (if any) from the whole situation outweighs all the bad? Or does he feel like he has revealed the truth which he was initially talking about, meaning his own “truth”?
There is no winning with this guy’s approach, he is obviously very bitter and miserable, for reasons which are up for speculation, but the bottom line is that his approach has done more harm than good, and that he’s going to keep doing it because he has nothing to lose anymore in terms if reputation.
He doesn't even acknowledge that he is accusing Danya lmao
@@joshjac81010 That’s true, the reason I said he’s accusing is because I also think that this is what he’s doing
@PellosMaxhthc oh yeah I got that. It's funny how Kramnik still is doing his mental gymnastics bit of "not accusing anyone, just asking questions"
@@joshjac81010 He's acting like he's approaching it purely factually, scientifically, non-emotionally and with curiosity, but his "facts" are just pure bias based on his own observations rather than some sort of objective evaluation, his stats and understanding of stats are beginner level so his "scientific method" is phony too. And finally, his act of not being emotionally invested in this is as equally as bad as all of the above, he's extremely emotional and it is evident in how he obviously represses his bitterness and anger with passive-aggressive sarcasm and dismissal of counter arguments.
There's a meme that describes him really well and it's the one with the guy who's wearing a smiley mask but crying under it.
Yes, that's how a public interrogation happens: Danya responded, Kramnik puts forward new evidence why he believes Danya lied, Danya stops responding. Your Scenario A is disanalogous because Kramnik isn't simply repeating his points lol; he presented new evidence in his video titled "Exposure." Kramnik, there, went over why he thinks Danya didn't just use an engine once for his speedrun video and thinks Danya is lying because he found a more blatant instance (for stronger players at least) where Danya calculated mate in 7 and 8 instantly. In his email response to Mustreader, Danga *does* respond, but uses Fabiano's argument that a speedrun account isn't important/competitive in nature therefore anything is permissible. First, it's not obvious Fabi would agree constantly using an engine even for a speedrun is okay because the context he defends is the single accidental usage. Second, even if Fabi defends it, I think the majority of people would not agree because a speedrun account isn't the same as Ben Finegold's chess lecture where Ben can take back his opponent's moves and do whatever he can for "educational purposes" - clearly, the account is intended to reflect some competitive spirit of the game. And lastly, if Danya did not think it was a big deal, why didn't he simply state that he used it multiple times? Why did he lie and conjure up this weird scenario?
Kramnik demonstrates exactly why nobody wants to talk to him about this.
he actually demonstrates way more ....he shows why no one wants to talk to him at all about anything
At this point much respect @chesswithmustreader to endure this person for such an amount of time without starting to threaten him :D
Yes, he is too rational and relies too much on facts.
Kramnik is the GOAT 🐐 and so Based 🗿📸
@@PostTenebrasLux1517"Alternative" facts.
@@ultrasound1459hopefully moderator of the channel will block you on this channel because of spamming same message over all conversation branches here.
Kramik: "Where is your proof? Let's not be general, let's be very concrete and precise."
Also Kramnik: "I have the proof, trust me, I know what I saw and it is a fact and if you don't believe me I will show it in court."
We literally caught Daniel red-handed using an engine during a live rated match which he publicly apologized for. The problem is you think cheating for education is acceptable and I think that's a terrible precedent for Gaming website to allow this and a terrible example for children. not just bad for Esports in general but bad for society.
Kramnik has admitted to match fixing@@cooloutac
@@cooloutac context matters lol. Don't be delusional like kramnik 😊
@nuorotikc There should never be exceptions for cheating my friend because that sets a bad precedent and example. like Kramnik I've only ever created 1 active account. I'm positive you can't say the same because you think there's nothing wrong with using multiple accounts like your favorite streamer. You think if that corrupt fraudulent website allows something that means its not cheating.
@@cooloutaci wouldn't call what Daniel did cheating since he looked at Position with the engine that was in the opening, while the game was already way down the line.
So since he didn't could get an advantage on his Opponent, it was a fair play violation and not cheating. Still could be punished and maybe should be.
arguing with kramnik is like arguing with a wall he wont listen to you and you just get tired.
braindead
Is quite the opposite actually
@@leucio87 it is
@@leucio87 Yes, unlike Kramnik the wall will let you finish your sentences!
A very paranoid wall that talks back
Krammnik just doesn't let anyone respond completely before interrupting them each and everytime. This is so childish and not at all professional. And then he cries no one responds to him or calls him on their channels. Maybe try respecting them and let them complete talking?
He also keeps mentioning his views as facts. That is so wrong. His views are his views, not facts.
This season of chess has been amazing.
Kramnik is the GOAT 🐐 and so Based 🗿📸
Chess basically completely died off a year ago and has been in a downward spiral since Magnus accused Hans neiman. It's now a game only children take seriously.
@@cooloutac There are many (also adult) people who play chess who have barely heard of Hans Niemann or don´t know who he is at all. And there are also enough people who follow chess because of the game itself and not for the Drama. It sounds like you get that impression because there are many videos made about all the Drama in chess but that doesn´t mean that that´s all there is.
@hermionelovegood9814 because they probably follow OTB chess. 94% of active title players don't even play in online tournaments because they think it's a joke.
@@cooloutac can't compare, man, a reasonable guy like Magnus with non-sensical looney; only children? hmm, maybe, considering how much younger GM's became; careful with your doom and gloom; chess is booming; just take a look at recent Paris blitz spectacle
LOL Kramnik saying he will admit if he's wrong is the funniest thing I have seen since that Chappelle special from a few years ago.
I dunno, do you think that special was funnier than chapelle's Clarence Bixby character, the black white supremacist who was blind and no one told him he was black...and divorced his white wife for loving a black guy once he found out? I'm not sure if anything is funnier than that, but Kramnik is really trying to get there.
Chapelle was never this funny
Kramnik is a cool guy lmao. I think he is having the time of his life honestly. I mean hey . He is doing God's work.
This Kramnik is really impossible to communicate with.
When Kramnik doesn't even know the difference between closed and minimised, then we know we have a problem...
That's the point where I lost it...
EXACTLY
Did I just hallucinate or did this lunatic actually say that he is talking with lawyers and considering suing Naroditsky? What kind of mind-boggling inverted reality is he living in..
@@dystopiandreams1073 he's scared and knows he's wrong that's the reason for his empty threats
@@jasond.personal5433yep. Attack your enemy before they attack you. - Vladimir Sun Tzu
Did you at any point consider that you may be living in the inverted one? What’s your frame of reference?
you think Kramnik can win the lawsuit? Naro did call him vile and evil
@@HansNiemann-m7vwhat is he gonna sue him for?
Kramnik being offended that his name/reputation is being unfairly mischaracterized/tarnished unjustly is laughable.
“I am not a defender of Daniel but…” 😂😂😂
“It’s amusing how Kramnik is eager to ask questions and get answers, but when people expect the same from him, he just blocks them.”
I was blocked as well.
Keep up the good work Mustreader!
He blocked everyone. 😅
That’s not what happened
The problem with Kramnik is that he always uses facts, statistics, and scientific terms to make himself look impressive, but he forgets something very important about science. If you propose a theory or a question, that theory needs to be falsifiable-there should be a way to disprove it. This is the first principle of speaking scientifically. If it’s not falsifiable, then what you’re saying isn’t scientific.
But with Kramnik, you can’t use any arguments against him because he’s made himself 'bulletproof' with a bunch of big, meaningless words. He says, 'Everything I say is a fact. Everything I say is true. Everything I say is proven.' YOU have to prove yourself to me. Well then, master, please tell us-how EXACTLY can we disprove your theory?
My "scientific" theory is this: 20 billion light years away sits the devil. This is falsifiable because we can develop a better telescope (currently having a limit of ~15bln years) to see there's nobody there. Falsifiability is not necessary for the theory to be scientific.
Vladimir says things like "I think hes cheating, the probability that im incorrect is like 0,001. Its just math" and then plays the victim saying he never accused anyone because he mentioned the "slight probability" that hes incorrect. This guy needs to be humbled so he can understand that the new generation of players who grew up with engines and the ability to play strong oponents whenever they wanted surpassed the old generation
Timestamp?
or they grew up with engines and that's exactly why they have no shame in using them to "become someone"
@@witheringhs7766Oh come on. Danya has a higher FIDE rating in rapid than Kramnik. Let that sink in. He's a better rapid player not only online, but also over the board... Sorry if that doesn't fit your narrative.
Literally nobody but Kramnik thinks he's a cheater. He's a very strong, 2700 GM.
Talking about Hikaru's streak for example, if you ask for the likelyhood of a new streak of 40+ games is astronomically small. HOWEVER if you take the probability of a streak like this happening within the space of 10000+ games, the probability of a streak existing from random chance alone is around 40% if I remember the calculation correctly.
They can't play that good without engines. They grew up with engines and use them like they use socks.
Listen! In every spoken sentence or video clip there is an intention to present something. If someone is talking directly about something, then it is clear. But if a person asks some "questions", and those "questions" have assumptions in it, YOU CAN NOT CALL THEM QUESTIONS ANYMORE. They are just cleverly smuggled accusations. This kind of behaviour is a well known technique in all propaganda messages. You always need to see the bigger picture and understand the context and intentions. Such accusing questions build a strong, hidden question, that arises from the context, and it is just an accusation. Because it is legally acceptable, many politicians use it, and they are fine, but it has to stop. This is just manipulation!
"I'm right. That's a fact!"
Subjectively objective. Guy's a clown.
🤣
Watching this was physically hurting me. Jesus. Amount of times he mentions FACTS but ends the sentence with MY OPINION is just...
Cognitive dissonance masterclass!
This is so typical method of russian propaganda. Same school. You don't have to be ACTUALLY right, all you need is to convince the listener that you are right.
CM with 1900 rating? Everything is clear to me. Lets start the procedure.
Constantly interrupting, and then playing the victim. Kramnik is an actual cockroach. If he shuts up and lets people analyse his arguments he'll have nothing to stand on
When Kramnik mentions facts, he's not stating an opinion... You are jumping to conclusions. Kramnik is first trying to establish the facts (i.e. whether Danya opened Chessbase in 20 seconds or not is a verifiable fact - whether this makes him suspicious is an opinion). Kramnim didn't even defend his opinion because people keep trying to claim his facts aren't true (even though they are). So, all Kramnik has to do is say they are wrong because they aren't agreeing to the facts.
If you want to refute Kramnik you would have to point out why his facts are irrelevant, not claim they are untrue when they are true. For example, Kramnik does this against Danya's factual claim that he can pull up his Chessbase game history; Kramnik dismisses this because his argument is anyone can modify the data and it's not necessary Danya must use Chessbase whenever he uses an engine to cheat: notice Kramnik isn't claiming Danya lacks a game history to make this point? One way a Danya supporter may have refuted Kramnik as to the load up time is that the margin of error is too slim that there can be other reasonable explanations such as the depreciation of the equipment, slower processing speed due to recording + call in the background, or Danya's email esponse that speedrun accounts are noncompetitive therefore his engine use in them do not point to cheating in normal games or prized tournaments. All of these points are debatable and will further the discussion.
42:50 the narcissist says a huge lie. Kudos for Greg for not letting him go away with it.
"facts"
Oh it is not important let's move on 🤣
I did not know Kramniks opinions are fact! Surly this will transform all human understanding! Commence Procedure!
A year ago when all this saga began(I was on Kramnik's side and felt that he was really bringing something to the discussion (especially regarding how to handle cheaters on Titled Tuesday etc...) but now, he is sort of a character of himself, nitpicking and avoiding actual talking points that would lead to a resolution. I am not a fan of the people he criticized, so I am completely neutral, but man is he annoying
It is extremely sad what he has done to his name and image in the last few months. A world champion is something like a god-figure whose statue should be in the pantheon, but walking around and barking "cheater" at everyone who plays online, severely reduced him in my eyes.
Kramnik's legacy will likely end up like Fischer's. People will remember his chess, but everyone will act like his later years insanity didn't happen unless it is directly mentioned.
Greg, you should have grilled him more. Asked him 3 models on which he has based his “statistical insight” to reach an irrefutable bubble.
I wish you grilled more. “Vast majority agrees with me” (which majority? He lost 60-40 on a Russian channel WHICH IS A FACT, LOL), “It is a fact, I am factual” blah blah. Words alone are way too vague.
Also, what happened in Martinez’s case? What made him have sleepless nights after a fair and square defeat at his hands? Did he ever care to apologise or retract his egregious insinuations? Man gets away with a lot of things.
Great work nevertheless.
Mustreader is such a biased nobody
"Factual actual evidence that I am not 100% sure" What???
Can't believe Kramnik said that Danya's latest Csquared podcasts happened before danya-kramnik-ilya on levitov. Danya literally referred to multiple moments in the levitov interview.
U didn't listen carefully, try again Danya Bot.
exactly...typical example of his "slanderous lies". This should be pointed out more.
Danya clearly used stockfish to foresee the conversation on Levitov's channel... What a filthy cheater!
@@matteopriotto5131 except according to Kramnik he uses Leela, not Stockfish... or at least he thinks Danya used Leela for that infamous Bc8 move. Which he didn't actually make... 😂
The genesis of most of Kramnik’s “activism” seems to be personal grievance…
Isn't it true of most activism these days? Sigh.
I remember when an IM (or FM?) revealed Kramnik violated chesscom’s rules by using another player’s account in Titled Tuesday, Kramnik posted a video response where he said he’s going to look into that IM’s games.
That made it abundantly clear personal grievance played a big role in who he went after, it’s just McCarthyism in chess form
@@gautam-narula Not really. It was Kramnik who revealed himself in the comments to that video. He of course could deny any "accusations" as Danya did. But he showed himself as a man of honor, it was for real a gesture of an honest man.
@@some-basic-channel an honest nut. No doubt he really believes himself to be logical and factual. He just doesn't understand his own limitations. From that video where he said it was impossible for hikaru'a editors to add an eval bar quickly - which was completely wrong, but he was totally convinced. Because he doesn't know how to do it, it must be impossible. That's why he'll never admit he's wrong, he doesn't have the capacity to actually understand that he's wrong.
@@MrPatchtkennedy Maybe he's wrong. Maybe you are. Why can't you be wrong? And if you are wrong, should everyone assume that you can NEVER be right anymore?
The amount of time Kramnik interrupted and talked over Greg is astounding. That’s extremely rude. And Kramnik wonders why nobody likes rude people
Kramnik literally interrupts Greg while he is speaking. Greg says that he got interrupted. Kramnik: "Sorry I thought you finished your sentence"
@@hermionelovegood9814 exactly. Greg clearly hasn’t finished speaking, and is STILL speaking when Kramnik “thought Greg has finished”. If Kramnik wants people to listen to him he needs to fix how he treats and approach people first. Just because he was the World Chess Champion, it doesn’t give him the rights to belittle people nor the rights to demand people to answer him. Respect was earned, but he has now thrown it down the drain
its also not a way to start an interview with a lie
@@hermionelovegood9814 and that is a fact
Nobody likes honest people either. Kramnik says the truth and is not scared of anyone. Truth hurts!
I don't know about the whole story.
But just judging on this video, I can see that the interviewer has a very disgustingly dishonest approach.
It seems that he has already made his decision about disagreeing to whatever Kramnik says, regardless of anything.
No good faith or anything constructive in his opinion.
I think it´s time for the Final Procedure.............
The Brain Procedure
hahahahaahha
Kramnik is a professional gaslighter
Listening to kramnik talk is hilarious because he’ll use language like “proof” and “fact” for his beliefs and then concede on those exact same points less than a minute later
41:46 Kramnik interrupts you just to apologize for interrupting lol. You cannot make this stuff up 😆
He's completely clueless, 500 elo at self-awareness.
I died hahahaa
Both are not native speakers so it happens when you speak a different language, silly
@@Nicole-yy1kn I am not a native speaker and no it doesn't happen
@ so am I - clearly you are delusional - it happens to every not native speaker who doesn’t speak extremely well, that’s just how brain works,silly
Under Kramnik's pinned comment, I explained that "episode" has multiple meanings and argued Greg probably misinterpreted Kramnik by assuming "episode" was a part of a series like Star Wars Episode 1 instead of "episode" as in a singular event of a sequence such as "he had a mental episode." I explained how because Kramnik was a psychology major and familiar with how "episode" is used in academia, especially when it's about mental events, he probably meant it in the second kind. So, "episode of a video" refers to a specific event in the video. Then I pointed out when Greg wrote he had linked the "episodes of the videos" just as Kramnik requested, this clearly shows what Kramnik had actually had in mind and Greg misinterpreted him. That is, "episodes of the videos" when episode is used like 'Episode 1 of Star Wars' does not make any sense, but makes completely sense in the second kind.
The coward must have read my comment and proceeded to edit his comment and changed the sentences until we were left with this abomination of a sentence instead, "the links are to concrete episodes of your fifteen-investigation videos." Apparently this clown thinks if he changes the sentence so that Kramnik is a TV producer making a new season about Danya's investigation and each video is a part of the 15 episodes per season, then he can somehow convince people that Kramnik meant "episode" just as how Greg misinterpreted him. This is the type of person you guys are dealing with. Someone who won't own up to a mistake and would rather change the narrative to best suit his needs. As Kramnik put it succinctly, a liar and a manipulator.
I thought Kramnik's expectation was pretty clear. They discussed it earlier in the video as well that he'd like people to have links to see the specific time when Danya tried running the engine analysis, so yes he didn't just mean the entire videos. And I just checked and you can see the comment has been edited, which really shouldn't have been done after Kramnik has replied. So yes, the integrity is completely gone. Although tbf I don't think it was being chased. I watched the previous video recapping the Levitov debate and he seemed pretty balanced but here the mask was completely gone. I almost stopped watching when he just couldn't bring himself to concede Vlad's point that he hadn't done the analysis in 21 seconds, even although he claimed he had.
Just chasing Hikaru speedrun / Botez viewers at that point...
Appreciate the great style of Chess content you are putting out. You got a new sub!
Welcome aboard!
@@MustreaderChess превет будеш моим другом
I think the real winner in all this is Mustreader. Got a sub from me. As for Kramnik's accusations, I'm not convinced, and I would like Danya to put out more speed run videos so I'd prefer if this whole thing was dropped..
This old dude is so immature. OMG! I cant listen to him anymore. Such a bad person.
1:08:40 - I'm excerpting a text from elsewhere: "A psychopath is someone who uses manipulation, violence and intimidation to control others and satisfy selfish needs. They can be intelligent and highly charismatic, but display a chronic inability to feel guilt, remorse or anxiety about any of their actions."
People can argue about words but understand the deeper underlying meaning.
No way is he saying he’s being bullied and having his image damaged lol he’s lost it.
yea. Only have himself to blame.
@@chessgains8075 He didn't sad that he sad that Daniel language was much more hursh, but it doesn't matter because hi is strong man and he can handle it.
@@predragnikolic3040 He is a weak minded individual, that is completely out of touch with his emotions, lashing out at players that beat him in online chess, that he seems aren’t on his level, which is completely overestimated in his delusional mind.
@ziganovak9526 If he is weak he won't do this, he is fighting online cheating alone, with all the consequences, to do that you must be very strong individual, very onest as well.If nouone does nothing, with all the technology it will become treath to otb chess, it is very serious issue, and it must be taken seriously and now..
@@ziganovak9526 Deletenig comments, likes, what else ?
Kramnik is a vampire. He gets energy by sucking blood from people. It's quite usual for old people in Russia
Regarding the 21 second vs 23 or 24 second. The point is not whether Daniel did it in 21 seconds or not at that moment. It's more about "Did Daniel demonstrate that it is possible to do so for him in the cut out time in video", which most people would agree that "If Daniel can casually enter the moves and it took 23/24 seconds, it should certainly be possible to enter it faster than 21 seconds"
Other streamers did that and entered both around 20 moves in 24 seconds. So For Danya, it was easy to enter just 8 moves and enable the engine. Moreover, Danya said he has a history of entering moves in Chess Base, and he could show it to Kramnik (and everybody, during the battle on Levitov chess), but Kramnik sad "No no no".
@@syfettI'm pretty sure he said he pasted the pgn in it and then started using his keyboard to get to the 8th move since it was pasted in
But he did not "demonstrate that this is possible". All what we know now - he is clearly can win in bullet on fractions of second but was unable to reproduce his own actions within 21 seconds limit.
@@some-basic-channel Are all Kramnik's fans this scummy?
Its not Daniel's responsibility to prove that he can do it in 21 seconds. Its Kramnik's repsonsibility to prove that he can't. You don't prove innocence. You prove guilt. Grow some integrity.
@@JD-xz1mx But... he ALREADY couldn't. He tried and couldn't. I don't understand what you want from me. To forget about it? To ignore it? You know that when you close your eyes, the world around you doesn't disappear, right?
you are doing a very good job here, also standing for what you believe is better for chess is amazing... +1
Hey guys, it’s Greg. What’s your opinion of how the podcast went? And whom do you support in this matter: Kramnik or Danya? Looking forward to your comments!
Danya because Kramnik is just out of his mind
starting to watch if you don't call him on the constant bullshit and being always intellectually dishonest this is gonna be a shame
@@protpvp1 I think it's okay to still have people who remain as neutral as possible. He wants to get as many people as possible on his podcast so he shouldn't burn any bridges.
seems obvious to me that theres is a third screen on some of those videos and the reflection proves just that
Obviously Danya!
Wow Kramnik is a master of projection
The podcast we’ve all been waiting for is finally here!
How does it feel to be a friend to a cheater, don’t you have any morality for shamelessly defending a cheater and muddying the waters when your friend got caught red handed. You know deep down he has done lot of sus actions.
The constant interruption from both sides made this hard to watch. I will look forward to your next video! ❤
Ok so these are the doubts I have and some conclusions based on what was said:
1. After listening to Kramnik it feels more like he does indeed believe that he's being as neutral as physically possible for him, as mentioned by him in this discussion that Danya was the one to first take up stern tone and the one who first refused to talk privately even at request of Kramnik, now it wasn't conclusive from this discussion that that was the case, so I can't say for sure what is true, but I can give benefit of doubt to Kramnik until I hear Danya's side of same timeline, if someone knows it then pls let me know if Danya ever spoke on the exact timeline. Now of course I'm not sure if Kramnik is including his insinuations in twitter which were long before recent drama which is mentioned by Danya in C2 podcast but if he is then it's very interesting, cause then I want to know the "full" timeline, basically to get to the bottom of "who was harsh first" and "who burnt the bridge first"
2. Kramnik needs to learn how to talk, especially when he's trying to appeal to a larger audience, he was being very disrespectful to greg by interrupting him frequently, I understand that he feels deeply about this matter but it should not go to a point where you are impeding your own point from getting across by getting in the way of genuine doubts and conversation. (For those who stopped midway, greg does interject Kramnik seriously about this and after that point the discussion is much more watchable and very interesting too, so if you are offput by this, just know that it gets better)
3. Kramnik is really being stubborn about the most meaningless things in the discussion like the 20 secs vs 24 secs discussion, nobody needs to listen to that, completely useless and besides the point discussion, it neither establishes that Danya cheats or that he doesn't, yet takes up a significant portion of mental energy from both greg and himself and time of this video, he said very very valid things later on which probably nobody will listen except those that do believe him already, because he's being this extremely unreasonable person. Please Kramnik, focus on the main points that "prove" that Danya cheats, not on the points that make you look like you don't have anything useful to say. Pls learn to ignore minor details which don't add to anything.
4. The point about speedrun account is completely valid imo, if someone has some valid counter then pls let me know, because from the perspective of person playing against these GMs or any masters for that matter, not just Danya on speedrun accounts is actually thinking either they are garbage at game or they faced a cheater and that ruins their entire experience of playing that game and probably their mood that day, and that is not hard to shake off even if you learn later on that it was speedrun account. Chesscom needs to put a clear indicator on user profiles , and I don't mean when you go to user profile, I mean like when you accept a game you should be aware that it's a speedrun account like lichess does for bots. So I completely agree with Kramnik here that for the other person it's definitely a competitive game( I'm ignoring the fact that this still doesn't do anything to prove Danya is cheater because he openly did it and made his intentions clear when doing so, from his perspective what he's doing is morally acceptable so he's not doing it out of intent to cheat but to teach)
5. I completely agree with Kramnik and Greg that Kramnik should not be the one doing what he's doing, he says he's forced to which I can understand given no big platform (chesscom and fide) is taking him seriously and his methods are forced (which I don't agree with because there's imo definitely something better than what he's doing) , either way there should be a 3rd party which is independent and dedicated to anti cheating and they do their own thing independently. But of course if what he says is true and again idk, but if Danya did burn the bridges first and chesscom did not cooperate at all, then maybe it makes sense? Idk I'm not sure about this.
6. During his chess game he does joke about his own terminology and trope, so I believe he understands how he is seen outside his bubble and he chooses to do what he does, potentially in good faith, at least I hope so for greater good, but also for greater good I hope that there is proper agency which does this and not him.
Sorry for long message but I am genuinely interested in seeing there be sane discussions about important topics instead of pushing the harsh levels up on both sides.
Kramnik is such a clown. Him trying to play victim is laughable. He would get absolutely massacred in court.
Kramnik is right
The website couldn't even take neiman to court. They scared to death.
Kramnik is 100% right
Kramnik and his fanboys should learn the very simple legal rule: if you can't prove something definitely, you do not prove it at all. And if you accuse someone of a serious transgression and fail to prove it definitely, while hurting that person's reputation, it falls under the legal definition of defamation.
If Naroditsky or Nakamura files a lawsuit, Kramnik has next to zero chance of winning it. Even in the U.S. where standards for defamation are looser. There is too much evidence proving that Kramnik said something he can't prove about Naroditsky (which means that legally those are untrue statements about Naroditsky) and that hurt Naroditsky. If it ever gets to testimony pretty much all chess community experts and top players would testify in favor of Naroditsky. Honestly, Kramnik has next to zero chance of walking away from a case like that without losing a ton of money.
To anyone familiar with the law the case is pretty clear. People who support Kramnik, on the other hand, seem to be the usual conspiracy theory crowd who rallies behind any guy who challenges nebulous malicious "establishment" (in particular case "chess mafia").
@@tentonmotto6779actually it's exactly the opposite of what you write
Good job, Greg. I think in the last 30 minutes you got some good responses from Kramnik that we hadn't heard from him before. While I still do not agree with his approach, it did give more insight into why he is doing this.
If you think you saw your neighbor doing something strange and possible illegal on his backyard, the answer is not to get a sign in front of your neighbor's house saying "I think the owner is a criminal and he won't answer my questions". What do you think people walking around would think of the owner of that house? How is this not harassment? If you have concerns you just go to the authorities. Kramnik is not the authority.
My empathy with people can only go so far. I actually felt for Kramnik in the beginning. Being in a paranoid state is rough I'd imagine. But this is turning into pure sadism. He stopped going after Hikaru when he shrugged and laughed it off and continued to torture Danya for months after he showed signs of clear mental distress and a willingess to communicte and solve the issue. He's clearly searching for people he can inflict the most emotinoal damage to and then keeps piling on the more upset they get. It's pure evil behavior and has nothing to do with "finding the truth". If it was, he wouldn't have backed out of the Hikaru confrontation. Unlike Danya, Hikaru provided no counter arguments or proofs of any kind and yet he was satisfied with the situation and decided not to further "investigate"? Nope, I don't buy it. This is again clearly about finding people he can bully and then do it relentlessly. And now *he* wants to sue Danya for emotional damage?? Yep my sympathy is completely gone. He's just a disgusting person.
Kramnik managed to play 1+1 without significant problems. Legendary "one tempy" in the end.
I think he would have a very compelling discussion with my 5 years old sister
It seems like Kramnik has learnt some phrases from Dany's answers and uses them against him. Kramnik says that he defends his name? But, to be honest, it feels like he is just taking his own medicine...
I found this to be insane that the interviewer says that the constant minimising window in the reflection which looks like it has a chess board on it which is what some engines look like should be believed to be OBS 😂🤡
I think the more obvious conclusion is that it is an engine.
Why would someone open and minimise OBS 15 times during a game, esp during the most pivotal points of the game.
People are bending over backwards to attempt to justify Naroditsky’s cheating.
It’s shameful on the interviewer’s part really sorry to say.
It is interesting to hear Kramnik’s view but I still disagree with his “analysis.” Thanks for maintaining parity despite your conflicting views!
I really do not have a horse in this ract, but what exactly am I supposed to take out of that blurry reflection? Which monitor is that? How does it relate to other screens? What exactly am I looking at? It could have been what Kramnik says, sure - but a dozen other explanations make as much sense. And what about the fact that the presumably the least interesting part was edited out of a video? The dude sitting in silence entering the moves. Why would you keep that in the video posted for entertainment? And why was the most damning part left in? The part where Danya actually admits to using an engine? Why would you keep that part in if you wanted to hide “cheating”? How is it all a proof of anything?
You require proof beyond reasonable doubt. Then you'd never catch any cheater unless they're extremely stupid. His online performance is world top level, far exceeding his proved strength in real life. Risk reward analysis shows he has great incentive to play at top level as a pure content creator. And he has virtually no risk of being caught. Kramnik's case presents a few valid suspicious points about danya. Danya's lack of participation otb and refusal to play kramnik in real life for fear of "what if bad performance by chance", these don't look good
@@ethanguo4219 You can go to any other chess RUclipsr video and - just as an exercise - convince yourself that they are cheating, and then try to look for evidence. You’ll find plenty. Weird looks, blurry reflections, strange cuts, weird pauses, odd calculation monologues. Everything can become suspicious if you’re emotionally attached to the idea that it is. Now the online vs real life performance - if granted -would be the only interesting avenue for investigation - but then again you need a solid “online vs real” benchmark among GMs, not just declare a single datapoint as odd.
Also Daniel not wanting to legitimise this trial by voluntarily participating in it is not strange to me at all.
Oh... and “proof beyond reasonable doubt” - what an odd approach to justice, right?
@@ethanguo4219 You can go to any other chess RUclipsr video and - just as an exercise - convince yourself that they are cheating, and then try to look for evidence. You’ll find plenty. Weird looks, blurry reflections, strange cuts, weird pauses, odd calculation monologues. Everything becomes suspicious if you’re emotionally attached to the idea that it is.
Now the online vs real life performance - if granted -would be the only interesting avenue for investigation - but then again you need a solid “online vs real” benchmark among GMs, not just declare a single datapoint as odd…
Also Danya not wanting to legitimise this which trial by voluntarily participating in it is not strange to me at all.
Oh... and “proof beyond reasonable doubt” - what an odd approach to justice, right?
The biggest problem with what Kramnik is doing is that he fails to make any powerful arguments that are hard to contest. It's more like he's throwing spaghetti against the wall. If you think someone's cheating online, don't mention the notion that he's farming rating points by playing in local live tournaments where he's mentoring some of the participants. Don't point out moves he's thinking about out loud (but doesn't actually play) from a game where he later makes several inaccuracies that a cheater wouldn't make. Don't use some eye movements to make claims about how his room must be arranged that you can't actually prove (and could never prove since we don't have time machines). None of these are strong arguments that someone's cheating, but since Kramnik uses all of these, it's very hard to take him seriously and gives the impression that there is some type of vendetta going on rather than a good-natured public "investigation".
Proof would be having video of him playing online chess games with an engine open. Stronger but still circumstantial evidence would be to provide PGNs from a large sample of games where he plays at an abnormally high strength (with someone that plays as often as Danya over so many years, this should not be hard to do). All Kramnik has are a bunch of vague suspicions with very weak arguments to back them up. That he's discussing all of this rather than actual anomalous game results speaks volumes about how seriously Kramnik takes his "research" and how open he is to the idea that he could be wrong.
That's only a problem if you're assuming his goal is to prove beyond a reasonable doubt or something. Maybe he just thinks that this meets the bar of reasonable suspicion?
To be fair to Kramnik, he did include a video of Danya playing an online chess game with engine open. By your own lights, Kramnik should be taken seriously. A further point is it's not as if Magnus had a stronger cumulative case against Hans, yet he was taken seriously. Whatever our standards for reasonable suspicion are, we should apply them consistently.
But I agree that Kramnik should lead with that statistical evidence (if he even has any).
My point is that what he's doing is tarnishing someone's public image, and if you don't want to face criticism back, your arguments should be as strong as possible. I wouldn't use that to describe Kramnik's work.
True, he did prove he used it to conduct analysis of the play earlier in the game. But that'd be proving the sky is blue: this was already public knowledge, and not proof he ever used an engine to give him moves for the current position during a game. Those are very different things. Again, a wall of spaghetti full of loosely connected things, nowhere near conclusive to the point where you hold a public trial.
@@cymerdown it's not clear to me that you're disagreeing with anything I've said
Maybe we only disagree what warrants posting multiple videos and persuing this publicly as much as Kramnik is. I think the Kramnik's work shows absolutely nothing at all that concludes Daniel ever used engine analysis to assist his moves in a rated or tournament game, period. If that's the case, Kramnik was wrong to draw such attention to a nothingburger. If you think I'm wrong in that, that would be the extent of the disagreement.
@cymerdown So you agree with everything I've said so far?
I can see how this is a nothingburger from your perspective but I can also see how there's reasonable suspicion from Kramnik's perspective.
-Он уложился в отведенное время ?
-Нууу блин пара секунд туда сюдаа, а какая вообще разница ?
-Да упокойся, его никто не посадит если ты признаешь факт - было или нет?скажи честно , просто скажи уложился или нет?
-Нууууу неееет , это же ничего не дакажет если скажу, он почти уложился поэтому я ему верю
-Блин , чел просто скажи он уложился (когда пытался это сделать СПЕЦИАЛЬНО - наверное если ты специально это делаешь на скорость ты немного перегонишь даже по времени, но никак не отстанешь отстанешь но окей....) и мы пойдем дальше , лол)
-Ну неееет , люблю Данечку , очень объективен, поэтому не могу ответить на вопрос четко
Просто мальчик, ситуация с крамником и народицким пройдет , а ты так и останешься дешевым, предвзятым интервьюером, который свою позицию не может убрать куда подальше и слушать тех гостей которых сам зовет
Уважай ты свою аудиторию в конце концов, она сама сделает выводы, дай ей одно мнение + дай другое , оба человека у тебя побывали, если ты одному учтиво киваешь , а другому усмешку после каждой фразы кидаешь то сорян , чет ты недопонял в том деле которым занимаешься"типа серьезно".... Напряги ты извилинки, что аудитория у тебя тупая такая , без твоих намеков что - то не поймет ? Если итак поймет , то нафига нужнен цирк этот ? а если и правда не поймет , то тогда это манипуляция уже, упс, за что боролся - на то и напоролся, дружок:(
Good point
Kramnik keeps looking to his left... And right... What is he looking at?? He's acting like a baby - "They were mean to me, so I'll be mean to them!" Sad man. Pathetic.
Kramnik ranting about 2-3 seconds for 15 minutes made me lose 2-3 years off my life.
Kramniks gaslighting skill should be studied by science. Top notch!
It is not smart to go into a discussion about the 23/21 seconds, since Kramnik is obviously right about the statement. Danya said, he could do it in 20 seconds. He could not. You can say, that it is within the margin of error, but that is not Kramniks point. So any discussion about that, you will lose. Smarter to just acknowledge the obvious. Danya didn't manage it in the time he said he could manage it. After you give Kramnik that fact, then you can argue the other stuff about margin of error and so on. But Kramnik is very detail oriented, very black/white, so just acknowledge stuff like that.
I also believe Danya is not cheating, but when you debate someone so black/white, you need to acknowledge the initial claim that Kramnik has. That he did not do it in 20 seconds. Which is correct. THEN start the debate whether it is important or not.
I think that is the issue people debating Kramnik runs into. They can't understand how Kramnik is hyperfocused on small things that might have many explanations. Kramnik finds these things. And just take them on one by one. Acknowledge the factual part of his argument. Then you can talk about possibilities and values after that.
weirdo
@@GAOMaster What is wrong about what I say lol. I have defended Danya 10 million times, but you can't debate like this against him.
@@GAOMasterread it again, he understands the mental state. 20 vs 23 is immaterial to a normal person, but to Kramnik it is "evidence". This is actually how he thinks.
@@KF1 Read the OP again... The point isn't about what is considered evidence but acknowleding the factual events. When you want to solve a murder, you first establish the list of facts, then you argue why such and such is a suspect because such and such facts. People in the comments, yourself included, keep conflating the FACTS as the CLAIMS and assume they must be mutually inclusive.
Great Job Interviewing Vladimir Kramnik and asking relevant questions !👍
hey Kramnik, fact you !
It's jaw dropping just how much of Kramnik's deluded interpretations of things done and said is based on his inability to comprehend and lack of understanding of basic English terminology.
It started with "cherry picking" where, admittedly, it was somewhat funny to hear him say "of course I'm cherry picking because I'm speaking about specific things".
From there (at that point it stopped being funny) it continued with "bad faith" and "good faith" where it couldn't be any clearer that he has no earthly understanding of what it means and worse... stands for!
Just to add here that going on the Levitov Podcast with the premeditated plan of lying and I'm paraphrasing: "I just said things, it didn't matter what, in order to get Danya to show his room".
It's almost hilarious to think that this might as well be the very definition of doing something in bad faith!
Here too... dear Kramnik, Danya is saying wicked not weak!
Seriously... seek life elsewhere.
Un-F'ing-believable.
pretty sure Nepo has sth to do with Kramniks confidence in his nonsense accusations
94% of active title plays don't play in online tournaments cuz they think it's infested with cheaters my friend. Fabiano said half the people cheat and ratings are meaningless are you going to call him crazy too? Kramnik is retired so he doesn't care and the other players might not agree with his methods but they agree that cheating is a huge problem in online chess is simply not viable. I can understand why this community of naive kids just believe their favorite cheating streamer but for adults in this community to not care and take the time to bash him is extremely suspicious .
@@cooloutacbut Danya isn't a cheater ...
@@nuorotikc Smurfing is cheating and that's what he built his career on kid. You're a cheater too if you use more than 1 active account in rated games. It takes someone with a very low moral character and unsporting attitude to condone omething like that. engine use goes hand in hand.
@@cooloutacit’s not smurfing it’s approved official educational accounts where ratings are refunded. Someone using them to teach players does not insinuate low moral character, that is a ridiculous take
@@cooloutaclowiq
We need a video called "Kramnik BLOCKED me after this podcast with him, but it speeds up by 5% every time Kramnik is interrupting"
I really wanted to give the guy the benefit of the doubt and understand his reasoning, but it is impossible. Kramnik is totally delusional and above all very rude and you deserve extra credit for keeping the interview going when after only 14 minutes into the conversation it was clear that Vlad would shout over anything you present him, simply based on his "fact checking" and there is absolutely nothing you can show him that will make him even remotely consider he is in the wrong here
Workshopping an idea here. There’s a few things going on here but a way to summarize from Kramniks perspective is this: in the early days of civilization there comes a point where people realize we need some type of authority force to keep criminals in line. And if there was a hesitancy to create such a force, you could expect to see cases of citizens take up vigilante work and they would very often pick on the wrong suspects due to a lack of of structure of investigations, biases, bad days, and dozens of other reasons. The creation of an established authority force would put alot of these people out of work as they could also be subject to punishment. For better and worse (admittedly I don’t see the better right now) Kramnik is essentially one of the early vigilantes standing on his principles and taking up a cause he believes in. And if no one cares enough to establish that force that would take up this fight against cheaters we’ll continue to see this until he finds something else he cares enough to pursue. Fascinating time in chess, unfortunate that he picked out someone that so many of us have been positively influenced by
No kramnik is an increasingly insane narcissist who is fighting to be considered right
Greg: Its 8 o'clock
Kramnik: No no it is 8.00 minutes 4 seconds
And then it is not four second past haha
Greg I am extremely sorry I will not watch the entirety of your video as I literally cannot bear the sheer rudeness of your guest. This behavior is an affront to both the grandmaster title let alonme the title of the world champion. However I find your channel a very nice addition to the chess media sphere and I will be following your content thank you.
Appreciate the video, but this is the last I can take of this "drama". By now it's clear that Kramnik has some agenda, what it is only he knows, and he's willing to commit morally questionable actions and lie to push it forward. This is no longer drama, it's just some guy lying and accusing people based on his own arbitrary criteria
It took me 10hours to watch this because I had to take a big break of what Kramnik said every 10 minutes. Holy moly
Stubborn people who can never admit when they are wrong... are one of the most despicable people in Earth. Thank you.
Every time he says "I'm not.." you can hear it in your mind he says "I am" (attacking you).
When he rebutts with "I'm sorry.." you can also tell "you are the one who should be sorry" (that I'm attacking you)
Greg, kudos and salutations. You tried hard not to be infinitely interrupted and bullied but there's a room for improvement. At least you tried; LOL
"I'm sorry, Gregg, but 23 is bigger than 21." 😂 Validimir F****ing Kramnik
He doesn't even get the point. Watching Kramnik is both funny and sad at the same time.
funny, sad and infuriating at the same time
Will somebody explain to Kramnik?
OPEN is not the opposite of MINIMIZED.
A program can be OPENED and MINIMIZED at the same time.
Opened means it is running (either in the front, or in the background).
What he is arguing about is MINIMIZED vs. MAXIMIZED (or brought to front).
I was losing my mind at this part
I can't believe Hans is dumb enough to claim Kramnik as a life coach, he can't even control himself for 20, 21, 22, 23, or any number of seconds.
I've been pretty sympathetic towards hans. Feeling like the chess world did him pretty dirty for his wrong actions as a kid. But your comment is spot on. My support for hans may fade because of his relationship to Crazy Uncle Krammy.
@@bmike410 I think most people lost respect for Hans after the Gotham interview
@@bmike410 After what happened to him because of Magnus´s accusations I would expect him to criticise Kramnik's methods. But apparently, he doesn´t have a problem with it when it happens to other people.
@@hermionelovegood9814 He actually said that this thing Kramnik is doing is silly, but that he is a good person and friend nontheless.
Fiiiiinallllyyyyyy someone has the guts to speak freely with him, without tiptoeing and coddling. Thank you!
Vladimir was calm while mustreader was simply beside himself and jumping out of his skin. How does it feel for you to see chess turn into a game only children take seriously my friend? It's just another cheating Esport but this time without Japan and South Korea to support them. I think huge layoffs are going to be coming for that website. The player base in the past two years have dropped off the face of the Earth. When as it was 94% of active title players don't play it online tournaments and they can't get any major sponsorships according to the CEO who said he will be leaving the company in a few years
@@cooloutacCalm? Kramnik wouldn’t let Greg finish a sentence. What Soviet edit of this video did you see?
@WallyHays I don't know what that has to do with him being calm and collected. Just the fact mustreader was wearing sunglasses constantly looking down made him seem petty and bitter. You can tell they despise and hate ktamnik because he is crashing their world, while kramnik doesn't look like he hates anybody. They accuse him of personally attacking people because for them it's very personal. All this time I thought mustreader was just trying to be partial to the website because he was hoping to partner with them in some way. But this video shows it goes deeper than that and it was uncomfortable to watch.
@@cooloutac Who are ”they”? I used to like Kramnik. Now he’s just cringe. I know russian, I listened to Levitov’s show. What a mess..
@@cooloutac Someone who is "calm and collected" doesn't frenetically talk over someone else. Continuously interrupting someone is a literal definition of NOT being "cool, calm, and collected." I don't care if Greg was wearing a scuba suit and a tutu with a luchador mask, Kramnik was not calm, nor was he cool, and he most certainly was not collected.
doesn't look like a journalist's work, I recommend watching Kramnik at Nepomnyashchy's for comparison
Зато как довольны адепты Дани с Накой. Совпадение?
I believe Kramnik must know that his innocent "I'm just asking questions and will apologise if I'm wrong" attitude is not adequate. Even if he did apologise at one point in time, there would still be damage from the investigation. There will always be people left who think he had a point and should have pursued it more. One cannot simply create a rumour about another chess player cheating and believe it is not a big deal.
To be fair he didn't create it. Danya did the violation himself. Kramnik is merely highlighting it and running to what he believes is a logical conclusion.
@@MrFootofDavros What about Kramnik's own violation? Using someone else's account for Titled Tuesday is FAR FAR worse.
@@Crashawsome Actually, exactly the same technically. Both fair play violations. Which is pretty much exactly why Kramnik is gunning for not so much Danya per se but the hypocrisy.
But you do understand the circumstances around why he was using that account yeah? Just seems odd to say it was "FAR FAR worse" if you do.
@@MrFootofDavros What "violation"? Are you talking about the technicality of using an engine to analyse another portion of an educational while the game hadn't concluded yet?
That's that what Kramnik is about, he is alleging actual cheating against him and others. There is no proof that Danya gave him actual reasons to start his investigation.
@@coolcat23 Yes, that's the technicality. You aren't allowed to open an engine during active game. The exact wording is "Do not use chess engines, software of any kind, bots, plugins, browser extensions, or any tools that analyze positions during play."
When Kramnik started writing “We demand proof N O W” to Danya on Twitter, in this sort of tone, I just thought enough is enough.