Excellent podcast Dan and Christy. I strongly feel that the rise in aviation social media content creators like yourself, continuously promoting safe practices and proficiency, has had a positive impact on lowering the GA accident rate. We as a community need to continue to promote this kind of content. Like I always say, keep up the excellent work. Safe skies my friends 🇺🇸🛩️
Really good podcast guys, very interesting. I always tell people that get on my plane that this is comparable to riding a motorcycle in terms of accident rate, so that they know the risk level compared to something they know better. Some people have the thought that a small GA airplane is as safe as an airliner with 2 trained pilots and extensive maintenance programs, which is not true of course. But I also tell them that accidents on a motorbike often happens from the outside (someone hitting them), but in GA, as was stated in this podcast, the accidents come from the pilot mainly. So the good news are that we can have some control over that. Flying often, improving our skils by training, reviewing our emergency procedures, knowing our POH by heart, etc.
The relative safety factor between GA and driving a car is almost completely a function of the pilot/driver. A high skill proficiency level on either side will tip the scales. Let's be scale tippers.
If you ever seen Hoovers Pilot Debrief, almost all the accidents that happen are people who ignore rules, like overloading a plane, flying into IMC without instrument training, and poor preflight planning. It's always a series of mistakes.
I’m a Commercial rated Captain on the Global 7500, so I fly a lot of hours commercial, but not so much GA, the only GA aircraft I own that is in annual, is my Beechcraft King Air 350i, and it’s just to expensive to operate that aircraft enough on a GA level to stay proficient, so that’s why we do mostly paid charters with that aircraft. But one thing I’ve seen as a CFII, most people practice their best glide at low engine idle. You learn your best glide at low engine idle, and get that number burned into your head, and really lose your engine, your gonna learn really quickly that your best glide at idle vs engine off, it’s going to be different. Because even though your engine is at idle, it’s not giving you and forward thrust, it isn’t creating drag as if it would with the engine off, with it windmilling also. If you wanna be proficient in that, get some attitude, shut the engine completely down, and see what it will do in that situation. But don’t only do that once, experiment in different density altitudes, because that will also effect your glide, stay proficient in those conditions, on a GA level, and you will be ok, when and/or if it ever happens. I believe one should fly at the bear minimum once a month, if you can’t make that happen, at least find a pilot friend to go with you on a proficiency flight, even if they’re not a CFI, they can still perhaps catch you before you make a mistake that will cost you your life! Most people let their egos get in the way of that, I’m a commercial airman, I do need a little GA man riding with me to keep proficient, I can teach him a thing or two if anything! I’ve seen airline captains who hasn’t flown GA in five years, screw up in a GA aircraft, because he wasn’t proficient in that little 150, even though he has 22,000+ hours in a Boeing 777.
My favorite statistics story is that during World War I British troops switch from leather helmets to metal ones. The number of head injuries increased remarkably. The reason for that, was that instead of dying, troops were surviving shots of the head because the helmet was absorbing most of the injury.
good discussion! I recently joined a flying club and they have a couple things/tools that align with what you guys are trying to say. First, they require checkouts every 6 months. Second, they have a “minimum flight time” where members need to fly I think 1 hour every 2 months. If they don’t, they get charged for the 1 hour anyways.
I read the comments. Now take it from another angle. As a trained accident investigator (bus), I would agree with Dan to take out the commercial, 91, and 120. Then on the ground side, take out the commercial side too. Greyhound, school bus, and charter & special service on the bus side, then the same for commercial trucking. Now what is left. GP general population. I would have to read the report before I reached a conclusion. Do car drivers do pre trips? Do all drivers maintain their cars to an A, B, C standard? (A maintenance system used by fleets?) I will stand out on a limb and guess that most do not. GA pilots might, professional drivers might. But Joe Sixpack? That is an unknown answer. Being a “ground guy” as opposed to a GA guy, I would hope that we are safer but as in this case, “your mileage may vary”. I will speak for myself. Maybe even challenge some GA pilots out there. I “owned” my chauffeurs license for 52 years, gave it up at age 70. Beat my record of 11655 days worked with 0 accidents. I’m sure Brownie and others can beat me on miles, but I quit counting at 2 million, I believe I ended with about 3.1 after 31 years. One year in a bus at 102,000 miles? That is really seeing the USA! Whether it’s GA or car driving, be safe out there, avoid the 3 D’s, check the weather, don’t be bullied by others, because it is YOUR license/certificate. Safety cannot be underestimated. Shortcuts are always testing the Swiss cheese. Edited to add 2 points. How many times do car drivers ever have to take a test to renew? Probably Slim to None, and Slim left town. On the GA side, planes are not much safer than they were 50 years ago. Maybe glass panels, but no airbags, and other built in safety features like ABS, and some pre-warn systems on 2020 or newer cars. I think it is a toss up, and would say that it is probably equal, if the statistics were compared apples to apples. Is a school bus safer than an airline? Is an Amtrak safer than a Greyhound. Training and safety is required for professionals. It is optional for the rest of society.
Good episode guys. It seems to me it's pointless to try to compare safety between cars and GA planes. There are just too many differences and variables. Truth is, aviation is risky. Humans weren't designed to travel through the skies or to withstand the effects of falling out of it. We have to minimize the risk through lots of training, lots of practice, and lots of attention to mechanical excellence. I believe too many pilots treat airplanes like cars - let 'em sit until you want to jump in and go. I heartily agree on the proficiency (practice) angle. I practice driving my car every day. I wish I was that practiced flying my plane.
As a pharmacist, I love statistics. People try to sell things with suspicious information. Most of the time, they are using out and out lies to make you think they should buy their products. Anyone in the business know better.
Look at the safety improvements (e.g. search for subaru vs jaws of live articles) in cars over the last two decades. Has GA safety improved on the same scale? The flying safer statistic may have true back around 2000 but it doesn't surprise the situation has changed.
I feel it's comes down to training people get a cfi to get hours for commercial licenses, and they only care to get the hours.. I feel u should need a commercial license before u can be a cfi
Flying has more inherent risks than driving. Cars don’t fall out of the air (unless you drive off a cliff). Plus, even in a 172 or a “Warrior”. You’re going much faster than a car driving down the highway. Even landing final approach speed is 70 mph (63 kts). I just finished my eFIRC and it placed a lot of emphasis on risk management. That, and staying proficient are the keys. Oh yeah, I won’t sign off a flight review if the pilot can’t meet the requirements in the ACS for the certificate they hold.
To quote a sign on a wall of a Statistician I know, " If you torture the data long enough, it will confess " On your statement about getting apples to apples on the comparison, there are so many variables to consider. For instance, for a viable comparison to 121 vs GA opps, I would think the maintenance on the GA aircraft needs to be to 121 levels. The pilot needs to be as proficient as the 121 pilot. .....
According too cessnas study back in the 90s wearing a crash helmet significantly reduces fatalitys and serious injurys by somewhere in the 70+% and i would imagine multi point harness help as well
The causes of traffic fatalities are; speeding, impaired driving, distracted driving, aggressive driving, drowsy driving and road conditions. If you don't ever drive under any of these conditions, maintain safe following distance and look both ways through intersections (including when you have a green light), your chances of being killed in a traffic are as close to zero as you can get without being zero. DG
People get their learners permit at 15 plus most state requires drivers Ed before they get drivers license I've been following different ga wrecks and I've seen most are pilot error and most are under 200 hrs experience More practice take off and landing is the same as driving through a parking lot you never know what is going happen and be ready for anything
Here is my take on it. Take a 100 mile trip in a car and reduce that by twenty percent to equal flying. Closer to apples to apples. convert hours to miles not easy but take an average of ga planes
Scenario based training. Training and practicing loos of power in takeoff configuration, reduced power, inadvertent vmc. Not maneuvers. Practice the Scenarios which are proven killers. Kind of like the commercial carriers do.
Sure , I can spend an extra 30k -50k a year training … can’t we all? if we want to eliminate stall accidents ….. then only Cannard aircraft should be allowed to fly . Both of these are just unrealistic. I do appreciate your videos though … keep up the good work .
@@TakingOff Awww, no longer Wong. This was a great video by the way. I just got my instrument rating on Thursday so I will definitely keep in mind what y’all said about proficiency and practicing in VFR!
Very few GA accidents involve more than 1 aircraft. Conversely, almost all auto accidents involve 2 or more vehicles. Apples to apples would mean looking at only accidents in GA that involve 2 or more airplanes compared to 2 or more automobiles. Very few ‘texting’ pilots are going to fly into your Cessna unexpectedly. 38,824 automobile deaths in the US in 2020 vs 332 GA deaths. A lot more cars out there… but! That is what makes automotive travel less safe. Very hard to make a real comparison in my opinion as the variables are many. However, just the lack of other distracted pilots running amuck makes GA travel safer.
Excellent podcast Dan and Christy. I strongly feel that the rise in aviation social media content creators like yourself, continuously promoting safe practices and proficiency, has had a positive impact on lowering the GA accident rate. We as a community need to continue to promote this kind of content. Like I always say, keep up the excellent work. Safe skies my friends 🇺🇸🛩️
Good morning from Minnesota! Interesting episode
Really good podcast guys, very interesting. I always tell people that get on my plane that this is comparable to riding a motorcycle in terms of accident rate, so that they know the risk level compared to something they know better. Some people have the thought that a small GA airplane is as safe as an airliner with 2 trained pilots and extensive maintenance programs, which is not true of course. But I also tell them that accidents on a motorbike often happens from the outside (someone hitting them), but in GA, as was stated in this podcast, the accidents come from the pilot mainly. So the good news are that we can have some control over that. Flying often, improving our skils by training, reviewing our emergency procedures, knowing our POH by heart, etc.
The relative safety factor between GA and driving a car is almost completely a function of the pilot/driver. A high skill proficiency level on either side will tip the scales. Let's be scale tippers.
I was a Data Analyst in Naval Aviation, my personal favorite…
“Figures don’t lie, But Liars figure”.
If you ever seen Hoovers Pilot Debrief, almost all the accidents that happen are people who ignore rules, like overloading a plane, flying into IMC without instrument training, and poor preflight planning. It's always a series of mistakes.
I’m a Commercial rated Captain on the Global 7500, so I fly a lot of hours commercial, but not so much GA, the only GA aircraft I own that is in annual, is my Beechcraft King Air 350i, and it’s just to expensive to operate that aircraft enough on a GA level to stay proficient, so that’s why we do mostly paid charters with that aircraft.
But one thing I’ve seen as a CFII, most people practice their best glide at low engine idle. You learn your best glide at low engine idle, and get that number burned into your head, and really lose your engine, your gonna learn really quickly that your best glide at idle vs engine off, it’s going to be different. Because even though your engine is at idle, it’s not giving you and forward thrust, it isn’t creating drag as if it would with the engine off, with it windmilling also.
If you wanna be proficient in that, get some attitude, shut the engine completely down, and see what it will do in that situation. But don’t only do that once, experiment in different density altitudes, because that will also effect your glide, stay proficient in those conditions, on a GA level, and you will be ok, when and/or if it ever happens. I believe one should fly at the bear minimum once a month, if you can’t make that happen, at least find a pilot friend to go with you on a proficiency flight, even if they’re not a CFI, they can still perhaps catch you before you make a mistake that will cost you your life!
Most people let their egos get in the way of that, I’m a commercial airman, I do need a little GA man riding with me to keep proficient, I can teach him a thing or two if anything! I’ve seen airline captains who hasn’t flown GA in five years, screw up in a GA aircraft, because he wasn’t proficient in that little 150, even though he has 22,000+ hours in a Boeing 777.
My favorite statistics story is that during World War I British troops switch from leather helmets to metal ones. The number of head injuries increased remarkably. The reason for that, was that instead of dying, troops were surviving shots of the head because the helmet was absorbing most of the injury.
Interesting
good discussion! I recently joined a flying club and they have a couple things/tools that align with what you guys are trying to say. First, they require checkouts every 6 months. Second, they have a “minimum flight time” where members need to fly I think 1 hour every 2 months. If they don’t, they get charged for the 1 hour anyways.
I read the comments. Now take it from another angle. As a trained accident investigator (bus), I would agree with Dan to take out the commercial, 91, and 120. Then on the ground side, take out the commercial side too. Greyhound, school bus, and charter & special service on the bus side, then the same for commercial trucking. Now what is left. GP general population. I would have to read the report before I reached a conclusion.
Do car drivers do pre trips? Do all drivers maintain their cars to an A, B, C standard? (A maintenance system used by fleets?) I will stand out on a limb and guess that most do not.
GA pilots might, professional drivers might. But Joe Sixpack? That is an unknown answer.
Being a “ground guy” as opposed to a GA guy, I would hope that we are safer but as in this case, “your mileage may vary”.
I will speak for myself. Maybe even challenge some GA pilots out there. I “owned” my chauffeurs license for 52 years, gave it up at age 70.
Beat my record of 11655 days worked with 0 accidents. I’m sure Brownie and others can beat me on miles, but I quit counting at 2 million, I believe I ended with about 3.1 after 31 years. One year in a bus at 102,000 miles? That is really seeing the USA!
Whether it’s GA or car driving, be safe out there, avoid the 3 D’s, check the weather, don’t be bullied by others, because it is YOUR license/certificate. Safety cannot be underestimated. Shortcuts are always testing the Swiss cheese. Edited to add 2 points. How many times do car drivers ever have to take a test to renew? Probably Slim to None, and Slim left town. On the GA side, planes are not much safer than they were 50 years ago. Maybe glass panels, but no airbags, and other built in safety features like ABS, and some pre-warn systems on 2020 or newer cars.
I think it is a toss up, and would say that it is probably equal, if the statistics were compared apples to apples. Is a school bus safer than an airline? Is an Amtrak safer than a Greyhound.
Training and safety is required for professionals. It is optional for the rest of society.
Good episode guys. It seems to me it's pointless to try to compare safety between cars and GA planes. There are just too many differences and variables. Truth is, aviation is risky. Humans weren't designed to travel through the skies or to withstand the effects of falling out of it. We have to minimize the risk through lots of training, lots of practice, and lots of attention to mechanical excellence. I believe too many pilots treat airplanes like cars - let 'em sit until you want to jump in and go. I heartily agree on the proficiency (practice) angle. I practice driving my car every day. I wish I was that practiced flying my plane.
I would like to recommend one more safety measure. VFR pilots, use VFR Flight Following at every opportunity. ATC is your safety net!
As a pharmacist, I love statistics. People try to sell things with suspicious information. Most of the time, they are using out and out lies to make you think they should buy their products. Anyone in the business know better.
Look at the safety improvements (e.g. search for subaru vs jaws of live articles) in cars over the last two decades. Has GA safety improved on the same scale? The flying safer statistic may have true back around 2000 but it doesn't surprise the situation has changed.
I feel it's comes down to training people get a cfi to get hours for commercial licenses, and they only care to get the hours.. I feel u should need a commercial license before u can be a cfi
Flying has more inherent risks than driving. Cars don’t fall out of the air (unless you drive off a cliff). Plus, even in a 172 or a “Warrior”. You’re going much faster than a car driving down the highway. Even landing final approach speed is 70 mph (63 kts). I just finished my eFIRC and it placed a lot of emphasis on risk management. That, and staying proficient are the keys. Oh yeah, I won’t sign off a flight review if the pilot can’t meet the requirements in the ACS for the certificate they hold.
To quote a sign on a wall of a Statistician I know, " If you torture the data long enough, it will confess " On your statement about getting apples to apples on the comparison, there are so many variables to consider. For instance, for a viable comparison to 121 vs GA opps, I would think the maintenance on the GA aircraft needs to be to 121 levels. The pilot needs to be as proficient as the 121 pilot. .....
According too cessnas study back in the 90s wearing a crash helmet significantly reduces fatalitys and serious injurys by somewhere in the 70+% and i would imagine multi point harness help as well
The causes of traffic fatalities are; speeding, impaired driving, distracted driving, aggressive driving, drowsy driving and road conditions. If you don't ever drive under any of these conditions, maintain safe following distance and look both ways through intersections (including when you have a green light), your chances of being killed in a traffic are as close to zero as you can get without being zero. DG
All good advice. One more: avoid on coming drunk drivers - that’s the “mistake” my brother made that cost him his life.
In South Africa the motor vehicle accident rate is so high that general aviation is a viable alternative.
Wow.
5 mins in. Gotta say I’ve never heard or read anyone try to claim that GA is safer than driving lol. But will watch anyways to hear the discussion.
I feel like GA should be compared with miles to cars not hours. But...🤷
People get their learners permit at 15 plus most state requires drivers Ed before they get drivers license
I've been following different ga wrecks and I've seen most are pilot error and most are under 200 hrs experience
More practice take off and landing is the same as driving through a parking lot you never know what is going happen and be ready for anything
Statistics… well.. everything can be manipulated, changed,etc… but if that is the premise, everything goes to chaos…
I 100 percent agree on the topic of proficiency importance but does the data show a direct correlation to proficiency or are these assumptions?
Here is my take on it. Take a 100 mile trip in a car and reduce that by twenty percent to equal flying. Closer to apples to apples. convert hours to miles not easy but take an average of ga planes
Curious why you need to wear headphones, when you’re sitting next to each other in the same room?
Scenario based training. Training and practicing loos of power in takeoff configuration, reduced power, inadvertent vmc. Not maneuvers. Practice the Scenarios which are proven killers. Kind of like the commercial carriers do.
You forgot to break down the traffic accident rate to include new inexperienced drivers.
Sure , I can spend an extra 30k -50k a year training … can’t we all?
if we want to eliminate stall accidents ….. then only Cannard aircraft should be allowed to fly .
Both of these are just unrealistic.
I do appreciate your videos though … keep up the good work .
In TX flying is safer than drive… 😂.. for sure
i’ll take my chances above 3500 msl
Christy Schaffer?
Shafer
@@TakingOff Awww, no longer Wong. This was a great video by the way. I just got my instrument rating on Thursday so I will definitely keep in mind what y’all said about proficiency and practicing in VFR!
Congratulations !!!
@@TakingOff Thank you !
I hope my wife doesn’t see this video… let’s make flying GA safer, like the airlines.
It can never be …. GA pistons cant have the reliability of multimillion dollars multi engine jets with minimum 2 pilots tested to a higher standard
👍✅👏👏👏
Very few GA accidents involve more than 1 aircraft. Conversely, almost all auto accidents involve 2 or more vehicles.
Apples to apples would mean looking at only accidents in GA that involve 2 or more airplanes compared to 2 or more automobiles. Very few ‘texting’ pilots are going to fly into your Cessna unexpectedly.
38,824 automobile deaths in the US in 2020 vs 332 GA deaths. A lot more cars out there… but! That is what makes automotive travel less safe.
Very hard to make a real comparison in my opinion as the variables are many. However, just the lack of other distracted pilots running amuck makes GA travel safer.