The whole arm-movement-causing-pressure-on-a-watch-thing has been thoroughly debunked. It's insignificant at any speed a human could possibly move. Great video outside of that though.
You’re not the first one to point it out 🤦♂️ I keep forgetting that I have a bionic arm capable of accelerating to several hundred miles an hour unlike most mere mortals…. Just kidding. I’ve learnt something myself this time 😂 Cheers 😀😀😀👍
I once broke an Atlantic watch with 30m wr by simply washing my car from the ricochet of the droplets. Of course the service guy didn't believe me. My opinion is that the 30 m wr isn't actually tested at all
Not to beat a dead horse, but also worth noting if the subject ever comes up is that the full dynamic pressure is added only at the stagnation point. In all other places, the pressure may be greater or less than the static pressure. So in order for the dynamic pressure to even matter, stagnation points need to occur at the seals. That's highly unlikely. You would need laboratory conditions to make that happen.
I was just thinking that and funny enough just commented on teddy’s last video saying how bad seiko timekeeping accuracy is. We buy watches to tell the time
@@yogzm5645I can hardly care whether it is 6 seconds or 25 seconds per day.. I don’t set my watch with the seconds synchronized with the atomic clock to start with and at the end of the day it hasn’t changed anything. I switch watches too often so they never get the chance to deviate more than a minute or so.
Great video Mike. I have a Citizen BJ7111-51M Titanium GMT dive watch which i picked up half price in a sale. It is so comfortable and being solar quartz, just worry free. I recently picked up a Seiko King Turtle in a sale. I've avoided Seiko on QC reputation and was fully expecting to be sending it back. Instead, it's running about 3 seconds a day fast and outperforming the Sellita in my CW63...As you say, it's a lottery. It's why I have no shame in quartz.
Very kind of you. Truth be told. My wife watches all my vids before uploads and ensure that the ones where I’m really stupid are deleted 😂😀 Survivor bias I think it’s called 😀
Your diversity of subject choices is a real differentiator…this was another great video full of interesting information and opinion. Keep them coming 👍
I believe that many years ago Rolls Royce/Bentley were cagey about publishing the horse power figures of their cars, instead describing it as 'adequate'. When they introduced a faster turbocharged Bentley, power was 'more than adequate'
Just a little comment from a materials and processing engineer: very good considerations and application of reasonable good sense, love how you step back and give a reasonable overview of the topics BUT grade 5 titanium and grade 2 (also called cp titanium) are NOT equivalent in hardness hence scratch resistance. Grade 2 has from 200 to 260 HV0.5 whereas Grade 5 has from 340 to 370 HV0.5. 😉
With stealth and panache you have subtly insinuated your perspectives into the enthusiast’s consciousness. I am grateful for your insights and perspective. The benefit to you is as you are well aware no one else does this, and no one does it better! Bravo.
Another excellent video, i especially loved your simple explanation about water resistance, an area often misunderstood in our watch hobby. I did appreciate your take on the Seiko accuracy and you made solid points... However, I still would like to see them do better. I have purchased numerous Seiko watches over the years, and they consistently under perform in the area of accuracy. My last one was the Seiko Willard, which i believe I paid right at a $1000 , and it runs approximately +20 seconds a day... Comparing to multiple Hamilton watches (i tried to choose a brand with comparable MSRP) i have owned that all ran under +10 seconds a day... Having said that, thank you again for your content, i really enjoy it.
Well said! I agree with you on all points! Having worked in the aviation sector I can attest to you said regarding grade 2 titanium. If its good enough for airframes and wing structures, its good enough to go on your wrist. I love titanium and its has many wonderful properties that make it ideal for watchmaking. Especially the fact that its virtually immune to chlorine so swimming in a pool is not a problem where your stainless steel will rust over time... Have a great weekend!
@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch The more you know! Titanium has a dirty secret though... Did you know that it is flammable? While working with it at high temperature is can actually combust. For example when cutting some on a lathe, or grinder at high speeds or if it comes into contact with a blow torch. Have a great week Mike!
A quick Google leads me to believing you meant magnesium. The space shuttle used titanium exterior panels that with stood reentry and many modern turbo fan jet engines use titanium within the engine. Modern fighters use titanium in the thrust vectoring mechanism.
@@shadowsocks7472 No, I did not haha. Having never worked with or on a space shuttle I would not be able to tell you. As a mechanical engineer and AME I can tell you that titanium alloys with strength up to 1200MPa are used in a wide variety of airframe applications from small fasteners, weighing a few grams to landing gear trucks and large wing beams weighing up to 1 ton. Currently titanium makes up to 10% of empty weight of aircraft such as the Boeing 777. Perhaps I should be more specific. Its quite rare to use titanium for whole airframes and wing structures but they are most certainly in them. Six and seven series aluminum is mostly used for this application as is has excellent properties and is 2/3 lighter. Hope you have an awesome day!
Your channel has been addressing topics with such clarity and precision, answering questions that no other channel has managed to explain so effectively. Thank you so much for your effort and dedication-it truly makes a difference!
Aging of the WR seals ... The rating of watches and their associated factory testing is only with a new watch, with the rubber gasket seals also being new. However, as the seals age, the rubber become more brittle and less elastic - they crack. (Think of an old rubber elastic band - if fails with very little elongation, and its cracks are readily visible). So, the recommended caution of low WR rating (say 3 ATM/30m or even 5 ATM/50m) is really to give consideration for the aging of the seals after just a few years.
I wish you could explain this more on bigger audience, and more people should watch you. You're the only one that make sense that doesn't offend or trigger someone.
Hello. First of all congratulations. You are one of the few where I am interested seeing the whole Video and also the way you speak is great to hear and unterstand. Continue your good work and excited which other Models and comparisons you will make
5:01 Oh hey, Citizen and Seiko manuals do that! Seiko just has that well-known "look at it wrong and 0.0001% of all the watches break instantly" thing where it says not to put it under running water so it's been speculated that they put the 30m description into any watch manual based on just what movement they use while Citizen has "this one is okay to wash your hands, this one is okay for skin diving, but only when all of their crowns are locked properly" thing which I really like. Actually describes the use cases like you wanted them to.
Really like all of this. Especially the "even if it performs better often, I don't care because they're not guaranteeing it". This has always basically ruined 4R Seikos for me.
Your videos are always insightful and full of knowledge, not just about specifications but on branding, marketing and consumerism. It’s a perspective that isn’t fanboy over “the new thing”. Cheers.
One of my favourites videos of yours Mike. As has been pointed out scratch resistance for different titanium alloys is important. A bit like Sinn’s tegiment tech. I’d definitely prefer my watch not to scratch up too quickly if possible. Everything else on point and put together so well and concisely. I really enjoy your videos thank you for doing them
Very well done video! Great points about Titanium and Seiko's (I love Seiko's and have been lucky on accuracy and bezels as I think many of us have been but like you say - they don't want to guarantee it).
I saw an interview with an old watchmaker who used to work on a production line. They made standard movements and high accuracy movements. The only difference was they were allowed more time to assemble tweak and regulate the high grade movements. Which cost money. The parts were the same from the bin.
I own a few quartz movement watches, an automatic and a hand wind. The quartz are beaters for work, the hand wound is a weekender, and the auto is for nice weekend events. Each movement has their own advantages, and weaknesses. But, they all keep very close time when viewed side by side in my watch drawer. When I see this consistency in time keeping, I am happy with my purchasing choices.
Finally somebody using the 'binning' analogy to explain the differences between movement performace. Excellent discussion! Regarding in house vs non in house, personalky I like to use an analogy from the auto Industry. Anong the carmakers, Mercedes is one of the few that designs and makes their own gearboxes from scratch. Does that mean BMW transmissions arent as good as they source theirs from ZF? Not necessarily, in fact the ZF gearboxed cars tend to be able to deliver faster shifts faster than comparable Mercedes models.
@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch glad to add a little something to the discussion. Fyi, been binging your videos this weekend. Plenty of valuable points and interesting perspective there. Thank you for your service to the watch community 🙏
Best watch channel period. I have the SPB143 and it’s my favorite watch. I also own several Omegas and have my dad’s Rolex Datejust. I still love all my Seikos.
*I have 4 Seiko mechanical movements, an NH36, a 4R36, a 7S26 and a 6R15. All have been watchmaker adjusted, all stay inside COSC limits. My 6R15 is always inside +/- 6 seconds per week.*
Even unregulated, out of the box they are they are very very good movements, I keep mine regulated with how much power I have in the main spring. My Nh 35 deviates between -10/+10 or dead on depending on the power in it. Having developed a relationship with it I know how to keep it pretty much dead on. Love it. In 2023 Im sure most modern industrialized countries can build good accurete watch movements. I feel the high end luxry , swiss watch market is a scam really unless you are a millionaire.
China can build solid movements too I have a Seagull St6 and Mingzhu Dg 2813 that compare with the nh35. QC is a problem with china yes, but they have good, solid, reputale brands now today too.
Most people who quote accuracy figures for Seiko tend quote the manufacturers perameters rather than base claims on experience. Mine is that you've got to be very unlucky to be even close to the discrepancy Seiko allow themselves. About +-10 is the average I have found, although my recently purchased Seiko 5 Sports 1968 reissue is staying within 10 seconds per week, but that's luck 😆
The irony of this statement - 4 big Rolex boutiques in So Cal and all don’t even have a Ti YM exhibition piece. Apparently Rolex is struggling to get their grade of Ti right. I love my Pelagos 39.
Love your content here, Seiko and GS fan, my SJE093 gains one (1) second over a day so it's on par with my Glashutte Sea Q 39mm 18K red gold diver! I believe it's a bargain cause the design, materials and workmanship are superb for the 3.5K I paid. My Blancpain loses three seconds and I'm okay with that as an engineer myself.
Thanks for yet another great video. I do enjoy the content An audio channel claimed the best loudspeakers are the ones . . . you build yourself . . . There is at least one RUclips channel that describes selecting compatible components for your ideal watch. Based on the HiFi model - this could be your best possible watch . . . components take approx 4 weeks to arrive from China. I think very very weathly people would prefer to fly on an aircraft built to a spec, rather than snake-oil marketing terminology. There is nothing wrong with honest descriptions, indeed I believe they are preferable. Cheers 🙂 PS - your video sounds significantly nicer on a slightly more expensive sound sytstem
My old man built speakers for Bowers & Wilkins for many years. He always told me about how chinese speakers (in the 80s and 90s) had concrete poured into the base of the cabinet to give the false impression of being of high quality. These days it seems extra bass is all you need to convince people a speaker is good. But I digress. Feel honoured that you use your better sound system to listen to me prattle on. Cheers . 😃😃😃
@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch - What a co-incidence I have just watched a video by GR-Research discussing areas where some of the BETTER loudspeakeres could be improved - i.e. much better than other run of the mill competitively built loudspeakers. The selection included B&W 602. Acoustics and HiFi equipment is an area which involves lots of complex stuff.. Mike your voice was totally transformed . . . now deliberating whether to change the DAC . . . yet more black arts. Your voice has become a very helpful test source . . . I also enjoy listening to music 🙂 Thanks
Going through the archives since I only discovered your channel a few months ago. Great job as always. This is great. ‘Spec snobs’ really give watch geeks a bad name. WR is probably the worst - as the joke goes: ‘the only liquid that will touch 99.9% of Rolexes is champagne.’
great video and perfectly created for users to better make an informed decision, watch collecting to me is about personal traits that a watch gives me. expensive or inexpensive. So much to consider when buying a watch these days, Many alternatives to get excited about. thank you.
I have two Seiko’s with 4R35. One has about +- 5 seconds while other is around 40 seconds ( both JDM models ). However one of them was originally purchased as the Grand Seiko studio and I think it’s also been regulated there.
Great points. Splashing and diving into a body of water will effect its water resistance. I don’t like the Grey color of TI. I do like brushed steel. 🤷♂️
First video I’ve watched from your channel and I immediately subscribed. Great video! Well structured and to the point. Curious if you can elaborate on what elements of movement finishing stick out to you on both ends of the spectrum and how we can be more discerning connoisseurs? Beveling here, anglage there… I’d watch that video! Keep up the great work
Good stuff and like you say, pretty hard to say objectively, other than is better for you. After forty six years of watch collecting and having tried a bit of everything, I've come full circle. Ninety percent of the time I just wear my Casios and GShocks, cause digital resin watches is what I like. I know and respect everything else but after forty plus years in this, I know what works, for me. And quite interesting to note, as a whole, my cheaper Casios performed better as a group than my Gs after a month long test in terms of accuracy. Were one to believe the hype, the Gs should have done better than the 'lesser' Casios. Great video
Another thing to consider with ANY tolerancing (I work in manufacturing as a machinist dealing with dimensional tolerances) is that everything is setup to accurately "hit the bullseye" no matter how tight or loose the tolerance is. The core difference is the design requirement and time and cost limits. If I have a part with a dimension that is specced at 1" +/- .060" (very loose), I still do my first setup aiming for 1.000" and go about making the parts. Most of them will be within .005", which is great, but if I get tip buildup or wear and my finished dimensions start drifting to .960" or 1.040" or whatever I just don't waste time adjusting anything. The +/- .060" tolerance means that for whatever reason it was chosen that parts from .940" all the way to 1.060" are considered functionally identical. But if you measured everything single part I made on this hypothetical setup there would probably be a lot more finished parts closer to the nominal 1" than out at the extremes. Probably a pretty generic bell curve with the nominal size at the peak. But because engineering call outs and testing don't work that way you have these hard upper and lower limits and no real economic way of scientifically measuring a tolerance curve over an entire production run. Tighter tolerances need more time to check that you're still in spec, and sometimes less aggressive/efficient cuts in my case. (Also, a lot if these Seiko "COSC" people aren't doing anything more than at best a brief look at the rate on a timegrapher and crossing their fingers that they get somewhere between +6 and -4 s/day. No Isochronism check, temperature check, max positional variance check, days of checks, etc... That's also a part of COSC certification.)
After five Seiko SLA series watches I can only say...8L35 movements are built like tanks and there is almost no difference in accuracy in different positions. The biggest problem is they come unregulated and that is pure lottery. One is -5s/d and the other is +10s /d but is also possible without any problems +1s/d. And something else is also important: once these movements are regulated, they will last for decades. If you ask me whether I will buy a watch with 8L35 movements again, my answer is definitely yes!
If I am not mistaken, JLC also explicitly says in the watch instructions manual that you can swim with 50m resistance. Personally, I will always prefer to be sure and have 100m resistance, even if I never do more than recreational swimming...
I agree... 50 m is the worst! What does that say actually? With 30m I know I should not go into the water and with 100 m I know I am safe in the water, so what is 50 m actually? I asked several dealers and they all told me they had to go back to JLC to clarify. Hmmmm... Then one evening I downloaded the JLC Master Geographique manual on the JLC site and there it was: it really says you can swim with this 50 m. I have never seen such clear words anywhere else... BTW: after their price hikes, I will NOT EVER buy any JLC. I love them but if I have to spend 15k, I will go to Bvlgari Octo Finissimo. With Bvlgari I have the feeling that they really are doing something good and interesting for the money I give them, and not that the Marketing dept. is milking the hell out of the market, like JLC... But you already explained that in another video :)@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch
Seiko, like Case Back Watches said once that he loves his Rolex DJ (late) cal.3035 but it's less accurate in daily summing on average than a very basic Seiko-5 cal.7S26b that he wears too. I've learned a lot from Seikos.
I sell watches, well buy and sell. Every time I get a Seiko I test for accuracy. On the newer movements 4r or 6r the accuracy can usually be improved by regulating it, so that’s what I do. I have not had a newer Seiko with bad accuracy, well not after it’s been regulated at least.
@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch It’s funny yes, but as accuracy is maybe not super important I think many accept this. Prices on Seiko are very good compared to almost all brands so this will not stop people from buying Seiko, it won’t stop me!
@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch Actually, many people will do the reverse. They will buy a new car, then take it to a custom tuner, who will then proceed to tune the engine so that it gets better HP and torque.
With the Seiko movements, it's all about regulation. I've dealt with about 5 or 6 of them. They ran about 20-30s slower but after regulation which I did on my own with a smartphone and a small wooden peg I got them into the COSC range easily. If I'm not mistaken, all of them were under 5s a day difference during normal use. You can get it regulated by basically any watchmaker for about 20 dollars and have a significantly more accurate watch. Or you can do it yourself and with about 10 minutes of tinkering you can have similar results. It's basically just opening the caseback, moving a lever and measuring the results with your phone. Just try to get the dial up position as close to 0 as possible and that's all you need.
Agreed in the manufacturing specs part. We all love seiko but come on, get the watch to be properly tested for its stated accuracy if its really good enough. Spending almost 4 grand on a seiko is not good value anymore if the swiss competition is offering better stuffs for similar prices. Its peak copium
Stimulating as always- thank you. Lots of pics of the Yachtmaster Ti illustrating different points. You really want to get your hands on that, don't you?! Yeah, me too
Your closing comment. Best watch, best watch for you. I have trouble accepting that these high end watches have as much variance as they do. I understand and can appreciate the craftsmanship in them but just look at a Citizen chronomaster. Super accurate, titanium, well finished. Just doesn't have that sweeping hand. And for me the chronometer is where it's at.
The arguments about Seiko movements is very compelling but there is at least one flaw… the norm, not the exception, is that 4R and 6R movements will run much better that the specified accuracy.
@@donmac7780 Unfortunately I've only had the opposite experience, with none of my 6R movements running better than 30 seconds prior to paying someone to regulate them. (I say this as a Seiko fan.)
The purpose of a watch is to tell the time. On that basis, radio controlled quartz models are unbeatable, followed by Seiko spring drive and Casio’s specially selected quartz models at between 1 and 5 seconds per year. The fancy materials are just to add perceived value and make the watch more attractive as a piece of jewellery.
I think you mean Citizen where you say Casio, as the latter hasn't manufactured a +/-10 to 15spy thermoinsensitive movement in over 40 years (the 4.19 MHz Casio SP-400, SP-410 and SP-400G models). As far as accuracy's concerned, satellite and bluetooth beats out radio-controlled signals, which beats out thermocompensated, high-frequency quartz, which beats out thermocompensated quartz, etc.
14:28 I happen to actually like the feeling under my fingers of a nice machined metal case-back. Not to mention I prefer thinner watches and see the display back as unnecessary added thickness .
Just a consideration on performance specs: my experience is that Seiko movements need some time to reach performance. Out of the box, for example, I have experienced 6R line movements that performed just within specs as of day one (-25 to +15 secs). However I found them performing better after 2-3 weeks or so, performing up to +5 secs a day. Isn’t it logical to expect that mechanical machines need some time for all parts to lubricate well, ger perfect grip etc? Perhaps Seiko sends out lower specced watches out reducing the in-house testing and approval phase?
Nice video. Yes, display back cases can show off pretty movements. However, I don't see them as being that important on wristwatches. Neither you, nor anyone else, sees the movement when you wear the watch. I'd argue that display cases (also known as "salesmen's cases") are better for vintage pocket watches, since the movement is easy to see by the person carrying the watch as well as someone else who might want to see the movement. Many of the high-end vintage/antique pocket watches, especially those designed for use by railway workers, have movements that make a modern luxury wristwatch movement look bland.
Seiko is a tool watch company, they make great affordable watches that are tough and rugged. Rolex-Tudor is a marketing company. They make good watches that are hyped up. In the 50s to the 90s Rolex was a tool watch brand. Now that supply is controlled and demand is high they get crazy prices. Rolex started out buying cases and putting in movements. They bought the movement company in 2002. Seiko is much better bang for the buck.
Would love to see the science behind 'diving could add pressure that could exceed 30m of water resistance". I think people vastly misunderstand this. The only data I've seen is that moving 10m per second underwater (good luck) may change the water pressure by 5 meters.
It’s true. It has no effect. I have a bionic arm that moves at over 700 miles an hour so it applies to me pf course. Did not consider mere mortals. Jk. One of things I have always taken for granted and now stand corrected 🤦♂️😀
The whole arm-movement-causing-pressure-on-a-watch-thing has been thoroughly debunked. It's insignificant at any speed a human could possibly move. Great video outside of that though.
You’re not the first one to point it out 🤦♂️
I keep forgetting that I have a bionic arm capable of accelerating to several hundred miles an hour unlike most mere mortals….
Just kidding. I’ve learnt something myself this time 😂
Cheers 😀😀😀👍
@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch No worries. I subscribed anyway, hoping to one day see you swim across the Atlantic in half an hour. :)
I once broke an Atlantic watch with 30m wr by simply washing my car from the ricochet of the droplets. Of course the service guy didn't believe me. My opinion is that the 30 m wr isn't actually tested at all
Not to beat a dead horse, but also worth noting if the subject ever comes up is that the full dynamic pressure is added only at the stagnation point. In all other places, the pressure may be greater or less than the static pressure. So in order for the dynamic pressure to even matter, stagnation points need to occur at the seals. That's highly unlikely. You would need laboratory conditions to make that happen.
Citations?
Finally a YT content creator with some sense and useful information.
Amen 🙏
I was just thinking that and funny enough just commented on teddy’s last video saying how bad seiko timekeeping accuracy is. We buy watches to tell the time
I appreciate that! Thanks 👍👍👍
Based.
@@yogzm5645I can hardly care whether it is 6 seconds or 25 seconds per day.. I don’t set my watch with the seconds synchronized with the atomic clock to start with and at the end of the day it hasn’t changed anything. I switch watches too often so they never get the chance to deviate more than a minute or so.
Your observations are fast becoming the the best in our hobby sir. 👏
totally
Very kind of you. I'm trying my best to do something worth watching. So the praise is really appreciated 😃😃
Great video Mike. I have a Citizen BJ7111-51M Titanium GMT dive watch which i picked up half price in a sale. It is so comfortable and being solar quartz, just worry free. I recently picked up a Seiko King Turtle in a sale. I've avoided Seiko on QC reputation and was fully expecting to be sending it back. Instead, it's running about 3 seconds a day fast and outperforming the Sellita in my CW63...As you say, it's a lottery. It's why I have no shame in quartz.
Such a smart person with a small channel. You sir deserve more.
Very kind of you. Truth be told. My wife watches all my vids before uploads and ensure that the ones where I’m really stupid are deleted 😂😀
Survivor bias I think it’s called 😀
Your diversity of subject choices is a real differentiator…this was another great video full of interesting information and opinion. Keep them coming 👍
I will try 😀
A voice of common sense which is so uncommn among watch channel you tubers.Excellent.
I blush 🤦
Lol. Thanks 😀
I believe that many years ago Rolls Royce/Bentley were cagey about publishing the horse power figures of their cars, instead describing it as 'adequate'. When they introduced a faster turbocharged Bentley, power was 'more than adequate'
More than adequate - proceeds to insert 800bhp engine into four door sedan 😀😀😂
It's nice to see someone talking sense. I agree with what you said about water resistance. Not many people understand water resistance
Thanks - Appreciated 😀😀
This man knows what he’s talking - l like the depth, distinctiveness and sophistication of the discussion.
Amazing!!!!
Very kind - Thanks a ton 😊😊
Just a little comment from a materials and processing engineer: very good considerations and application of reasonable good sense, love how you step back and give a reasonable overview of the topics BUT grade 5 titanium and grade 2 (also called cp titanium) are NOT equivalent in hardness hence scratch resistance. Grade 2 has from 200 to 260 HV0.5 whereas Grade 5 has from 340 to 370 HV0.5. 😉
Good point - Thanks. 😃
So refreshing to hear such a lucid, succinct explanation of these concepts. Very nice!
Glad you think so! 😀
I couldn't agree with you more. You dispel so many myths that watch enthusiasts think are gospel. Kudos to you!
Thanks - Glad you found it worthwhile to watch 😀😀
This video was really epic! So many things covered and all excellent points! Thank you!
Thanks. Appreciated. 😀😀
Ps. Enjoyed your “other markets” take on the bucherer situation. 👍👍
With stealth and panache you have subtly insinuated your perspectives into the enthusiast’s consciousness. I am grateful for your insights and perspective. The benefit to you is as you are well aware no one else does this, and no one does it better! Bravo.
Another excellent video, i especially loved your simple explanation about water resistance, an area often misunderstood in our watch hobby. I did appreciate your take on the Seiko accuracy and you made solid points... However, I still would like to see them do better. I have purchased numerous Seiko watches over the years, and they consistently under perform in the area of accuracy. My last one was the Seiko Willard, which i believe I paid right at a $1000 , and it runs approximately +20 seconds a day... Comparing to multiple Hamilton watches (i tried to choose a brand with comparable MSRP) i have owned that all ran under +10 seconds a day... Having said that, thank you again for your content, i really enjoy it.
Thanks a ton - really appreciated 😃😃
Well said! I agree with you on all points! Having worked in the aviation sector I can attest to you said regarding grade 2 titanium. If its good enough for airframes and wing structures, its good enough to go on your wrist. I love titanium and its has many wonderful properties that make it ideal for watchmaking. Especially the fact that its virtually immune to chlorine so swimming in a pool is not a problem where your stainless steel will rust over time... Have a great weekend!
Good point on the chlorine. Was actually not aware of that 😀
@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch The more you know! Titanium has a dirty secret though... Did you know that it is flammable? While working with it at high temperature is can actually combust. For example when cutting some on a lathe, or grinder at high speeds or if it comes into contact with a blow torch. Have a great week Mike!
This would seem to indicate it isn't the best for aviation? Is it used as internal structure no where near a jet engine or the nose cone?
A quick Google leads me to believing you meant magnesium. The space shuttle used titanium exterior panels that with stood reentry and many modern turbo fan jet engines use titanium within the engine. Modern fighters use titanium in the thrust vectoring mechanism.
@@shadowsocks7472 No, I did not haha. Having never worked with or on a space shuttle I would not be able to tell you. As a mechanical engineer and AME I can tell you that titanium alloys with strength up to 1200MPa are used in a wide variety of airframe applications from small fasteners, weighing a few grams to landing gear trucks and large wing beams weighing up to 1 ton. Currently titanium makes up to 10% of empty weight of aircraft such as the Boeing 777. Perhaps I should be more specific. Its quite rare to use titanium for whole airframes and wing structures but they are most certainly in them. Six and seven series aluminum is mostly used for this application as is has excellent properties and is 2/3 lighter. Hope you have an awesome day!
Superb video. Balanced, mature, thoughtful, knowledgeable, and sincere. All the things watch RUclips is usually not. Cheers dude.
Humble thanks from here 😀
Your channel has been addressing topics with such clarity and precision, answering questions that no other channel has managed to explain so effectively. Thank you so much for your effort and dedication-it truly makes a difference!
So nice of you
The voice of reason. Hard to disagree. Thanks for another great video, keep it coming. 👍
High praise! Thanks 😀
Glad you mentioned the display caseback issue. Insane markup just to see the movement. Great commentary too all around 👌
Aging of the WR seals ... The rating of watches and their associated factory testing is only with a new watch, with the rubber gasket seals also being new. However, as the seals age, the rubber become more brittle and less elastic - they crack. (Think of an old rubber elastic band - if fails with very little elongation, and its cracks are readily visible).
So, the recommended caution of low WR rating (say 3 ATM/30m or even 5 ATM/50m) is really to give consideration for the aging of the seals after just a few years.
Your comments are very on point and helped me better understand how to objectively assess watches. Thank you.
Glad you find value in tuning in. Cheers 😀
Great video! Things I’ve kind of known and suspected, but never vocalised. Thanks for giving a clear, concise description.
Glad it was helpful!😃😃😃
I wish you could explain this more on bigger audience, and more people should watch you. You're the only one that make sense that doesn't offend or trigger someone.
Great intro and I liked how you gave a brief overview of the topics you discussed.
thanks 😀
Dear sir, your channel has something different. Please keep this good stuff up!
I will certainly try 😃😃
Thanks, Mike. You're my favourite watch channel.
With each new video you release, I always learn something new about the industry.
Wow, thanks! So, very very kind of you. I'll try to keep it up 😃
This another helpful video in separating values vs hype. I always enjoy your insightful discussions.
I appreciate that 😃😃
This is both highly informative and entertaining. Well done!
Keep up the excellent work.
Will try my best. Thank you 😃😃
Hello. First of all congratulations. You are one of the few where I am interested seeing the whole Video and also the way you speak is great to hear and unterstand. Continue your good work and excited which other Models and comparisons you will make
Will do my best - Thanks 😀😀
As always, a sane look and advise. I have only recently found your channel and am a huge fan, so... thank you for that.
thank you kindly 😀😀
Very interesting topics. I still would like more info in the titanium alloys... ;-). And I like your take on the Seiko pricing/specs setting.
My enjoyment comes with the spot on, objective analysis and seeing the number of subscribers grow. Lol!
What a great channel!
Much appreciated 😀😀😀
5:01 Oh hey, Citizen and Seiko manuals do that! Seiko just has that well-known "look at it wrong and 0.0001% of all the watches break instantly" thing where it says not to put it under running water so it's been speculated that they put the 30m description into any watch manual based on just what movement they use while Citizen has "this one is okay to wash your hands, this one is okay for skin diving, but only when all of their crowns are locked properly" thing which I really like. Actually describes the use cases like you wanted them to.
Really like all of this. Especially the "even if it performs better often, I don't care because they're not guaranteeing it". This has always basically ruined 4R Seikos for me.
Thanks a bunch 😀
Your videos are always insightful and full of knowledge, not just about specifications but on branding, marketing and consumerism. It’s a perspective that isn’t fanboy over “the new thing”. Cheers.
thanks and cheers to you to 😀
You've provided information that is wholly new to me. Very interesting.
thanks 😃
Great content. I'm a fan of how you deliver the contents.
Thanks for taking the time to let me know. It means a lot 😀
Hi Mike, I just subscribed to your channel. Great stuff you are putting out without the hype. Just solid and sound advice. Keep it up!
Thanks - I will do my best 😀
One of my favourites videos of yours Mike.
As has been pointed out scratch resistance for different titanium alloys is important. A bit like Sinn’s tegiment tech. I’d definitely prefer my watch not to scratch up too quickly if possible.
Everything else on point and put together so well and concisely.
I really enjoy your videos thank you for doing them
Thanks for the watch 😀
Very well done video! Great points about Titanium and Seiko's (I love Seiko's and have been lucky on accuracy and bezels as I think many of us have been but like you say - they don't want to guarantee it).
Thanks for watching! 😃😃
Wow. I am speechless by your level of analysis! Are you a professor? Seriously😮
Very kind of you. I just have too much time on my hands to overthink everything watches.... 😂😂
I saw an interview with an old watchmaker who used to work on a production line. They made standard movements and high accuracy movements. The only difference was they were allowed more time to assemble tweak and regulate the high grade movements. Which cost money. The parts were the same from the bin.
I own a few quartz movement watches, an automatic and a hand wind. The quartz are beaters for work, the hand wound is a weekender, and the auto is for nice weekend events.
Each movement has their own advantages, and weaknesses. But, they all keep very close time when viewed side by side in my watch drawer.
When I see this consistency in time keeping, I am happy with my purchasing choices.
I truly love your videos my man! Keep it up
I will try 😀
Subbed and liked. Good video. Good comments Nice to find a watch channel that doesnt feel like a marketing tool for selling watches.
Thanks for sub - Really appreciated. My aim is to stand by my own opinions rather than get in the good graces of any particular brands 😃😃
Finally somebody using the 'binning' analogy to explain the differences between movement performace. Excellent discussion! Regarding in house vs non in house, personalky I like to use an analogy from the auto Industry. Anong the carmakers, Mercedes is one of the few that designs and makes their own gearboxes from scratch. Does that mean BMW transmissions arent as good as they source theirs from ZF? Not necessarily, in fact the ZF gearboxed cars tend to be able to deliver faster shifts faster than comparable Mercedes models.
Interesting perspective on cars - And here I was assuming both Merc and BMW made all their own stuff .... 😀😀
@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch glad to add a little something to the discussion. Fyi, been binging your videos this weekend. Plenty of valuable points and interesting perspective there. Thank you for your service to the watch community 🙏
Best watch channel period. I have the SPB143 and it’s my favorite watch. I also own several Omegas and have my dad’s Rolex Datejust. I still love all my Seikos.
thanks for that 😀
Thanks for sharing these insights in such an easy to understand way
Glad it was helpful! 😀
*I have 4 Seiko mechanical movements, an NH36, a 4R36, a 7S26 and a 6R15. All have been watchmaker adjusted, all stay inside COSC limits. My 6R15 is always inside +/- 6 seconds per week.*
Like I said - Good movements 😃😃😃
Even unregulated, out of the box they are they are very very good movements, I keep mine regulated with how much power I have in the main spring. My Nh 35 deviates between -10/+10 or dead on depending on the power in it. Having developed a relationship with it I know how to keep it pretty much dead on. Love it. In 2023 Im sure most modern industrialized countries can build good accurete watch movements. I feel the high end luxry , swiss watch market is a scam really unless you are a millionaire.
China can build solid movements too I have a Seagull St6 and Mingzhu Dg 2813 that compare with the nh35. QC is a problem with china yes, but they have good, solid, reputale brands now today too.
Most people who quote accuracy figures for Seiko tend quote the manufacturers perameters rather than base claims on experience. Mine is that you've got to be very unlucky to be even close to the discrepancy Seiko allow themselves. About +-10 is the average I have found, although my recently purchased Seiko 5 Sports 1968 reissue is staying within 10 seconds per week, but that's luck 😆
Really enjoying your content sir, look forward to the next one.
Thanks - Will try not to disappoint 😃😃
Excellent advice and content. Thank you for your candor.
Glad you found it worth watching 😀😀
Re: titanium, this has been a long time coming. Thank you, and well done.
My please - Glad you enjoyed it 😀
The irony of this statement - 4 big Rolex boutiques in So Cal and all don’t even have a Ti YM exhibition piece. Apparently Rolex is struggling to get their grade of Ti right.
I love my Pelagos 39.
Love your content here, Seiko and GS fan, my SJE093 gains one (1) second over a day so it's on par with my Glashutte Sea Q 39mm 18K red gold diver! I believe it's a bargain cause the design, materials and workmanship are superb for the 3.5K I paid. My Blancpain loses three seconds and I'm okay with that as an engineer myself.
Thanks and luck you with the Blancpain. A true icon 😃😃
As always solid advice with a measured presentation, keep up the great work 👏
Thanks, will do! 😃😃
Thanks for yet another great video. I do enjoy the content
An audio channel claimed the best loudspeakers are the ones . . . you build yourself . . .
There is at least one RUclips channel that describes selecting compatible components for your ideal watch.
Based on the HiFi model - this could be your best possible watch . . . components take approx 4 weeks to arrive from China.
I think very very weathly people would prefer to fly on an aircraft built to a spec, rather than snake-oil marketing terminology.
There is nothing wrong with honest descriptions, indeed I believe they are preferable. Cheers 🙂
PS - your video sounds significantly nicer on a slightly more expensive sound sytstem
My old man built speakers for Bowers & Wilkins for many years. He always told me about how chinese speakers (in the 80s and 90s) had concrete poured into the base of the cabinet to give the false impression of being of high quality.
These days it seems extra bass is all you need to convince people a speaker is good.
But I digress.
Feel honoured that you use your better sound system to listen to me prattle on. Cheers . 😃😃😃
@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch - What a co-incidence I have just watched a video by GR-Research discussing areas where some of the BETTER loudspeakeres could be improved - i.e. much better than other run of the mill competitively built loudspeakers. The selection included B&W 602. Acoustics and HiFi equipment is an area which involves lots of complex stuff..
Mike your voice was totally transformed . . . now deliberating whether to change the DAC . . . yet more black arts.
Your voice has become a very helpful test source . . . I also enjoy listening to music 🙂 Thanks
Brilliant. Keep up the good work mate.
Thanks! will try 😃😃
Brilliant analysis! Thank you. I’ve subscribed.
Thanks - Really appreciated 😃
Going through the archives since I only discovered your channel a few months ago. Great job as always.
This is great. ‘Spec snobs’ really give watch geeks a bad name. WR is probably the worst - as the joke goes: ‘the only liquid that will touch 99.9% of Rolexes is champagne.’
great video and perfectly created for users to better make an informed decision, watch collecting to me is about personal traits that a watch gives me.
expensive or inexpensive. So much to consider when buying a watch these days, Many alternatives to get excited about. thank you.
Thanks for sharing! -😃
I have two Seiko’s with 4R35. One has about +- 5 seconds while other is around 40 seconds ( both JDM models ). However one of them was originally purchased as the Grand Seiko studio and I think it’s also been regulated there.
That's the thing - All over the place 😀
Great points. Splashing and diving into a body of water will effect its water resistance. I don’t like the Grey color of TI. I do like brushed steel. 🤷♂️
Thanks for sharing! 😃
just great 😊professional explanation and video🙏🍀👍👍👍🍀🍀🍀🍀
Thank you kindly! 😀
First video I’ve watched from your channel and I immediately subscribed. Great video! Well structured and to the point.
Curious if you can elaborate on what elements of movement finishing stick out to you on both ends of the spectrum and how we can be more discerning connoisseurs? Beveling here, anglage there… I’d watch that video!
Keep up the great work
Awesome! Thank you!
Will make a note of the movement perspective. Might go down that rabbit whole. Thanks for the suggestion for sure
Cheers 😀😀
This is all great stuff. Thanks!
cheers 😀
Good stuff and like you say, pretty hard to say objectively, other than is better for you. After forty six years of watch collecting and having tried a bit of everything, I've come full circle. Ninety percent of the time I just wear my Casios and GShocks, cause digital resin watches is what I like. I know and respect everything else but after forty plus years in this, I know what works, for me. And quite interesting to note, as a whole, my cheaper Casios performed better as a group than my Gs after a month long test in terms of accuracy. Were one to believe the hype, the Gs should have done better than the 'lesser' Casios. Great video
Thanks, appreciated 😀😀
Please sir I want some more. Very well done.
Oliver Twist reference. Bonus thanks for you 😀😀
Cheers 😀😀
Quality watch conversation, sir.
Thanks! 😀
Another thing to consider with ANY tolerancing (I work in manufacturing as a machinist dealing with dimensional tolerances) is that everything is setup to accurately "hit the bullseye" no matter how tight or loose the tolerance is. The core difference is the design requirement and time and cost limits.
If I have a part with a dimension that is specced at 1" +/- .060" (very loose), I still do my first setup aiming for 1.000" and go about making the parts. Most of them will be within .005", which is great, but if I get tip buildup or wear and my finished dimensions start drifting to .960" or 1.040" or whatever I just don't waste time adjusting anything. The +/- .060" tolerance means that for whatever reason it was chosen that parts from .940" all the way to 1.060" are considered functionally identical. But if you measured everything single part I made on this hypothetical setup there would probably be a lot more finished parts closer to the nominal 1" than out at the extremes. Probably a pretty generic bell curve with the nominal size at the peak. But because engineering call outs and testing don't work that way you have these hard upper and lower limits and no real economic way of scientifically measuring a tolerance curve over an entire production run. Tighter tolerances need more time to check that you're still in spec, and sometimes less aggressive/efficient cuts in my case.
(Also, a lot if these Seiko "COSC" people aren't doing anything more than at best a brief look at the rate on a timegrapher and crossing their fingers that they get somewhere between +6 and -4 s/day. No Isochronism check, temperature check, max positional variance check, days of checks, etc... That's also a part of COSC certification.)
After five Seiko SLA series watches I can only say...8L35 movements are built like tanks and there is almost no difference in accuracy in different positions. The biggest problem is they come unregulated and that is pure lottery. One is -5s/d and the other is +10s /d but is also possible without any problems +1s/d. And something else is also important: once these movements are regulated, they will last for decades. If you ask me whether I will buy a watch with 8L35 movements again, my answer is definitely yes!
Totally agree with you 😀
If I am not mistaken, JLC also explicitly says in the watch instructions manual that you can swim with 50m resistance. Personally, I will always prefer to be sure and have 100m resistance, even if I never do more than recreational swimming...
Wasn’t aware of the jlc position - proves the point. It’s an obtuse, unhelpful standard
Thanks for sharing 😀
I agree... 50 m is the worst! What does that say actually? With 30m I know I should not go into the water and with 100 m I know I am safe in the water, so what is 50 m actually? I asked several dealers and they all told me they had to go back to JLC to clarify. Hmmmm... Then one evening I downloaded the JLC Master Geographique manual on the JLC site and there it was: it really says you can swim with this 50 m. I have never seen such clear words anywhere else... BTW: after their price hikes, I will NOT EVER buy any JLC. I love them but if I have to spend 15k, I will go to Bvlgari Octo Finissimo. With Bvlgari I have the feeling that they really are doing something good and interesting for the money I give them, and not that the Marketing dept. is milking the hell out of the market, like JLC... But you already explained that in another video :)@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch
Thank you for explaining the Seiko Lottery. :)
It's my theory at least ... 😀
Enjoyed the video, thank you.
and thank you for taking the time to contribute.
Cheers
😀
Very informative and insightful!
Glad you think so! 😀
Great video and analysis!
Thanks a ton 😀
Tak
For en fed kanal - du har nogle kongegode betragtninger og pointer..
Tak - glad for at du synes om dem 😃😃
Seiko, like Case Back Watches said once that he loves his Rolex DJ (late) cal.3035 but it's less accurate in daily summing on average than a very basic Seiko-5 cal.7S26b that he wears too. I've learned a lot from Seikos.
Seiko is great. End of story 😃😃😃
I learn a lot from your videos. Thanks
So nice of you 😀😀
fantastic as always, thank you
cheers 😊😊
People talk about +/- 6 seconds accuracy.. here i adjust my clock time to be extra 5 mins, just to stay ahead of time.
I sell watches, well buy and sell. Every time I get a Seiko I test for accuracy. On the newer movements 4r or 6r the accuracy can usually be improved by regulating it, so that’s what I do. I have not had a newer Seiko with bad accuracy, well not after it’s been regulated at least.
Imagine buying a new car and the first thing you have to do is take it to a mechsnic to have it adjusted to you get a better mileage per gallon? 😀
@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch It’s funny yes, but as accuracy is maybe not super important I think many accept this. Prices on Seiko are very good compared to almost all brands so this will not stop people from buying Seiko, it won’t stop me!
@@Mike.thiswatchthatwatch Actually, many people will do the reverse. They will buy a new car, then take it to a custom tuner, who will then proceed to tune the engine so that it gets better HP and torque.
With the Seiko movements, it's all about regulation. I've dealt with about 5 or 6 of them. They ran about 20-30s slower but after regulation which I did on my own with a smartphone and a small wooden peg I got them into the COSC range easily. If I'm not mistaken, all of them were under 5s a day difference during normal use.
You can get it regulated by basically any watchmaker for about 20 dollars and have a significantly more accurate watch. Or you can do it yourself and with about 10 minutes of tinkering you can have similar results. It's basically just opening the caseback, moving a lever and measuring the results with your phone. Just try to get the dial up position as close to 0 as possible and that's all you need.
6:15 exactly. I was explaining that to a guy who was arguing Tudor’s MT5400 isn’t better than Seiko’s 6L35.
Yup 😀
Agreed in the manufacturing specs part. We all love seiko but come on, get the watch to be properly tested for its stated accuracy if its really good enough. Spending almost 4 grand on a seiko is not good value anymore if the swiss competition is offering better stuffs for similar prices. Its peak copium
I Do not disagree 😀
Great observations all around. cheers
Thanks 👍
Wow great information 🙏
Glad you found it useful 😀
Very sensible insights.
Thanks 😀
Stimulating as always- thank you.
Lots of pics of the Yachtmaster Ti illustrating different points. You really want to get your hands on that, don't you?! Yeah, me too
I definitely want to see it in the metal. On the fence as to whether or not I like it yet (and this is coming from a yachtmaster fan)
😀
Your closing comment. Best watch, best watch for you. I have trouble accepting that these high end watches have as much variance as they do. I understand and can appreciate the craftsmanship in them but just look at a Citizen chronomaster. Super accurate, titanium, well finished. Just doesn't have that sweeping hand. And for me the chronometer is where it's at.
Well said! 😀
Can we have a video on watchmakers not being able to align the markers and second hands?😊
Maybe 😎
Seiko, haa!
The arguments about Seiko movements is very compelling but there is at least one flaw… the norm, not the exception, is that 4R and 6R movements will run much better that the specified accuracy.
This is true. In my experience, I have never come across a 4R or 6R movement that performed any worse than +5/-4
@@donmac7780 Unfortunately I've only had the opposite experience, with none of my 6R movements running better than 30 seconds prior to paying someone to regulate them. (I say this as a Seiko fan.)
@@Amplitudeproblemthe same for me here. I have a 6r35 that is running around minus 30 seconds per day. As a result it’s sitting in its box …….. :-(
The purpose of a watch is to tell the time. On that basis, radio controlled quartz models are unbeatable, followed by Seiko spring drive and Casio’s specially selected quartz models at between 1 and 5 seconds per year. The fancy materials are just to add perceived value and make the watch more attractive as a piece of jewellery.
I think you mean Citizen where you say Casio, as the latter hasn't manufactured a +/-10 to 15spy thermoinsensitive movement in over 40 years (the 4.19 MHz Casio SP-400, SP-410 and SP-400G models). As far as accuracy's concerned, satellite and bluetooth beats out radio-controlled signals, which beats out thermocompensated, high-frequency quartz, which beats out thermocompensated quartz, etc.
Seiko needs to give us a see through case back on spb 143j1 so we can admire the movement .. it’s going to be hilarious..
😂
14:28 I happen to actually like the feeling under my fingers of a nice machined metal case-back. Not to mention I prefer thinner watches and see the display back as unnecessary added thickness .
Just a consideration on performance specs: my experience is that Seiko movements need some time to reach performance. Out of the box, for example, I have experienced 6R line movements that performed just within specs as of day one (-25 to +15 secs). However I found them performing better after 2-3 weeks or so, performing up to +5 secs a day. Isn’t it logical to expect that mechanical machines need some time for all parts to lubricate well, ger perfect grip etc? Perhaps Seiko sends out lower specced watches out reducing the in-house testing and approval phase?
Nice video. Yes, display back cases can show off pretty movements. However, I don't see them as being that important on wristwatches. Neither you, nor anyone else, sees the movement when you wear the watch. I'd argue that display cases (also known as "salesmen's cases") are better for vintage pocket watches, since the movement is easy to see by the person carrying the watch as well as someone else who might want to see the movement. Many of the high-end vintage/antique pocket watches, especially those designed for use by railway workers, have movements that make a modern luxury wristwatch movement look bland.
Seiko is a tool watch company, they make great affordable watches that are tough and rugged. Rolex-Tudor is a marketing company. They make good watches that are hyped up. In the 50s to the 90s Rolex was a tool watch brand. Now that supply is controlled and demand is high they get crazy prices. Rolex started out buying cases and putting in movements. They bought the movement company in 2002. Seiko is much better bang for the buck.
You do get a lot from Seiko for sure 😃😃
Excellent content.
Much appreciated! 😀
Would love to see the science behind 'diving could add pressure that could exceed 30m of water resistance". I think people vastly misunderstand this. The only data I've seen is that moving 10m per second underwater (good luck) may change the water pressure by 5 meters.
It’s true. It has no effect.
I have a bionic arm that moves at over 700 miles an hour so it applies to me pf course. Did not consider mere mortals.
Jk. One of things I have always taken for granted and now stand corrected 🤦♂️😀