The complaints about every game are always the same. This character’s broken, this mechanic is stupid, ect. You could have just as easily said ARE ALL FIGHTING GAMES BAD?
People need to realize that this is a bad case of “careful what you wish for”. People complained about invincible wake up DPs and crouch tech, and ended up with throw loops. People complained about buying a the game for the update, and ended up with microtransactions. People kept accusing tournament organizers of being greedy and now there’s no offline majors. You can argue if it is for the best or not, but this is what people asked for. Now we gotta live with it
i don't see the problem with invincible wake up dps it's a nice way to break off of a bad situation and if the enemy sees it's coming they can block then punish, it's a good mechanic
I completely agree with this comment it's simple reap what you sow The devs are giving you what you want now you want something else this not how it goes we are grown ass men and women just enjoy a kid game don't go bitching like a five year old literally git gud I'm trying to develop my own fighting game u think I'm a listen to everything people say hell fucking nah because people will literally ruin their own shit and blame it on the devs btw I have no issue with SF6 I love it fighting games should be more offensive than defensive
Definitely some mechanic and character stuff worth discussing, but my only real gripes w/ the game has been the predatory costume pricing and lack of value in editions/season passes. I think a bunch of fun collabs with reasonable costumes and stuff would've kept the game fresh and in the honeymoon phase longer.
I completely agree. I actually thought that would be the premise of the video. I can handle Ken and JP, but sketchy in-game currency and $10 fatalities are the real problems, in my opinion.
FGs should be free to play. They already have freemium monetization. Just sell the campaign for 30-40 bucks separately. Nobody wants to pay 100+ bucks for the game+season pass dlc. The characters shouldn't be paid dlc in the first place. Every other game already figured out that selling content is a bad idea for multiplayer games cuz it fragments playerbase, so you just sell skins and a battlepass instead.
@@saxmanmelat least NRS started backpedaling on the price and even stated that the upcoming fatalities will be free for those who bought the current ones, and will be cheaper for others. Sure, fatalities should be available through completing something in the game or just for free in general since its a core part of MK, but there is no point in not admitting when they are at least taking steps in the right direction. Capcom on the other hand just doesn’t care that its ridiculous that you have to spend 108$ if you want to buy costumes for every character, nor that you have to buy 2x250 currency if you want to buy one.
@@TBKSSS FGs also have character passes as their monetization. In the example of SF6 the core audience will end up spending $90+ just on characters alone because they deem it necessary for the game. That's 1.5x the price of the base game, and the amount of development that goes into those characters is significantly less than developing an entirely new game, meaning the internal cost is significantly lower and the profit margin is significantly higher for the company, and that's just characters, not skins. Skins should be like 3 for $5 or $2-4 individually when you have a full-priced game and multiple paid "seasons" (character passes). You also have to keep in mind that buying the game is the games "monetization". These games aren't given the same budget as your normal AAA title and expected to make a profit off of a significantly smaller audience than something like Fortnite, the budgets are scaled back significantly in comparison. Do companies expect to earn more over time with DLC? Yes, however, the initial game was developed with a specific budget in order to accommodate making a profit on an audience of its size before DLC. Please don't make excuses for companies to continue to push the envelope in order to bleed us dry.
The only thing that annoys me about the discourse around SF6 is when people treat the game like it has 90s fighting game balance even though it's shockingly balanced for a new fighting game release. Of course there's some standout low tiers and high tiers where the power level doesn't feel fair but it's impossible for a developer to foresee this kind of stuff until alot of players get their hands on the full roster. You could definitely argue the game would have benefitted from 2 balance patches in it's first year but it's really not THAT bad.
Outside of JP on the top end and then Honda on the bottom end S1's character balance was pretty good. The issue with SF6 is more some of the mechanics risk/reward being off and bugs that have been a thing since the betas (Drive rush eating inputs, the sloppy input reader)
I hope that the Tekken 8 team is investing a lot of their time and resources to solidify a good online experience because there are a bunch of really cool looking characters that I can't wait to learn.
I'm expecting Tekken 8's netcode to be slightly less bad than Tekken 7 strictly because of Harada's hardline stance when everyone was talking rollback. Despite him saying T7 had rollback, it was a piss-poor implementation. Hopefully, I'm wrong but I don't have too much hope they'll actually change that.
@@originalscreenname44 the only concern right now is that netcode is based on how good your pc are, if you or your opponent has a shit pc the netcode will slow down the game, this was an issue during CBT so hopefully its fixed. PS5/Xbox players have no problem though
@zoran6850at least in Tekken the fighters will always feel and have some of their combos same as their previous games. Unlike Mortal Kombat where each character plays different with every new game since MK9. You need to always re-learn your character in MK. 😂
Tekken 7 was out for almost a decade before Tekken 8 is gettingn released. It doesn't h ave to be balanced at the start. They probably expect Tekken 8 to be out a good 8 years before word of Tekken 9 even gets start. So they aren't going to be investing anything at the jump in terms of it being a "Solid" online experience.
My biggest problem with modern fighting games is the way there being monatised to much of game is locked behind a pay wall from outfits to the colors it's gotten ridiculous and needs to stop where being changed 60 to 70 to 100$ for these games and where getting less the half the content we use to and it's even worse when they diside that instead of normal money they need to use there own premium currency so you don't actually know how much your spending for one item and ofcoers there's the dame battle pass like enough already just give me the game without all this bs
A longer patch cycle is definitely better when concerning fighting games. Letting the game's meta/counter strategies develop is much healthier than rushing to balance stuff without truly understanding the dynamic of what is happening, why its happening and do the characters have a answer for it.
Been saying this for ages. The best FGs of all time are all broken buggy messes, but people figured out how to work the jank in their favor. Devs need to let shit develop instead of listening to babies on reddit.
this years CPT already has 6 deejays, 8 lukes, and 6 ken’s qualified. at this rate top 8 is gonna be all luke, ken, and maybe like one other character. sf6 meta has been figured out for months and 1 patch a year is terrible mate.
Im an avid CvS2 player, even entering (just a local tho) tourney occassionally, and i find it funny to utilize the roll cancel mechanics that is long considered to be a "bug" in the game. It is what it is, as long as its enjoyable~
I think the only thing annoying about modern fighting games is how many are removing mechanics. Especially when they remove mechanics that are integral to the game’s identity. Strive probably got the worst of this with removing (reworking) Gatlings making burst full screen and simplifying the characters. People like to complain about anything but I think this speaks to what the heart of the issue is. No one has a problem with Granblue being a thing because it’s trying new things. But taking stuff out of a game without putting stuff in makes it feel like the game is losing its identity in a way.
@@MemeLordCrusader There's a lot more factoring into how well Strive did. Simplifying it was good to bring in new players, but it definitely wasn't everything.
@MemeLordCrusader I'm sorry then if that's the problem then people are just getting worse at fighting games and expect the developers to cater to them
I can't remember who it was, but someone said "You don't want a 5-5 matchup for all characters," and they were right. That would be the most boring fighting game on Earth if every character was dead even.
Which is a quote from an ignorant person who has a narrow experience of fighting games. All the good fighting games don't get enough exposure. SF, MK and Tekken are all the franchises that get the most attention and they are all trash.
@@nujevad28 then play with your friend group or get smashed on, it’s just like real life. If you want big brother to curate the experience, power creep happens to push product at your expense, yeah. Start a union 🤣
I think modern fighting games are in a weird spot because it's hard to please BOTH parties of players(newcomers and veterans). Companies want more than their foreseeable profit, and the easiest way is a higher player count. But with fighting games being as depth heavy as they are, it can be a turn-off.
That’s why games suck it’s all about money. These companies make money regardless yet y’all act like a billion dollar game is going to die so you accept less
I really hate to be that guy, but everyone needs to remember the games released this year are likely the first fighting games a large number of people have played. They were not around in the days when we got what we got and learned to appreciate the little eccentricities of our favorite games. In an age where games are expected to be updated forever, it makes sense that complaints will immediately rise up and no immediate response means the game is dead.
League also has a rotating character set and an incentive to make keep characters in line. Imagine if we had to buy Ken separately from the base game and then they ended up nerfing him? In LoL folks would just buy the next character + cosmetics meaning there's a conflict of interest. @reddfox01 I think a perfectly balanced game is impossible - but when something is busted...then it's busted. Balance should be something to strive for, but something that can never truly be achieved.
@reddfox01i don’t know about that. if a fighting game would be perfectly balanced and every match up would be 5-5 it would be the most boring game ever. it is incredibly difficult to balance fighting games and a lot of folks don’t realize how truly difficult it is in a 1on1 2D fighter. if we want to keep different archetypes and playstyles with a wide spectrum of characters that feel fundamentally different, perfect balance won’t ever be possible.
I think streamers and pro gamers chasing the cup have an outsized impact on the perception of SF6. I've seen several streamers complaining about how they are bored of SF6. If you are playing a game for a job it stops being a game and I think you need to be self aware enough to realize that casual players are not going to experience burnout at the same rate. I think jwong does a great job of straddling this line by keeping the energy high and leaning into some of the goofiness in the game. This is by no means unique to SF6, streamer content rushing through RPGs or really any new game truly ruins the experience for casual gamers who are just putting in a couple hours after work.
Facts, I would outright argue they need to stop making content that caters to cup chasers/streamers period if the genre doesn't live or die by them like fighting games
My take on all this is that the FGC is huge. We have so many new players and old who don’t know and forget about the same problems that plague fighters for years. Honestly I feel I’m reliving the worse part of the FGC all over again since my early days in 2001.
@@Jo-Iggi the FGC is to be fair arguably the purest form of competitive community there is. if you ever go to an actual offline event you’ll see. no toxic kids and teens, no pissing contest, everyone is friendly, helps everyone who is new and people celebrate the genre of fighting games as a whole at each event. EVO has more players than ever before, next gen games sold immensely well and on top of that the FGC was created by people who love the game, not eSports and corporate companies. the community has it’s flaws but true FGC which online toxic kids don’t belong to, is one of the most wholesome communities out there. the vibe is very different at events than at a major for FPS, BR or MOBA games.
KOF 15's online is fixed now. Not a ton of people queuing ranked, but thanks to the online being solid I usually have no problem finding multiple matches in a row against different people
KOF XV to me is the best Fighting Game in the last 10 years I can think of. I suck at it, but that game just feels great to play. Matchmaking works now. I hate the auto combo. Other than that, I have no complaints about the gameplay. Would love them to add a mode where you can have a 1v1 & a tag mode like KOF XI. I know it is blasphemous to the KOF Community to have a 1v1 Mode & splitting the player base, but I just think you'll get more Players playing the game & hopefully they graduate to the 3v3 KOF style.
KOFXV is just really damn good. Pretty much every character in it feels like the best iteration of themselves in terms of the cool shit they can do. Duo Lon especially felt like an amalgamation of everything that was cool about him past games plus some completely new sauce. They even somehow made Sylvie kinda fun. I sincerely hope there is a Season 3. Pretty much every Season 2 character was hype.
The problem with kof 15 is that it looks so so bad It doesnt inspire you to play at all If you are a characters as functions person And you only care about gameplay and nothing else Then i can understand But i personally dont think ill stick with the game, it just feels soulless to me Even more so than tekken 8 or sf6
Justin is from the older Gen of fighting game pros who were used to games that had maybe one or two revisions per game for the arcade version, and for me, I'm used to games not having super hard nerfs to things as well. Sometimes things are just hella strong. Adapting to the situation, matchups or circumstance is so much more important than just some nerf a dev tosses out super fast. Not to say hot fixes are bad, but they don't give the community time to really assess the whole picture of balancing. Also lol that ending
People nowadays just can enjoy things for what they are. They want everything to be changed and "perfected" to their liking, instead of taking something with its flaws and strengths. Era of the spoiled kids
Maybe it's because the first fighting game I got into was Melee, but because it's an old game and the only "patch" is the PAL version, you kind of just have to accept the game is the way it is. That doesn't mean I have to like everything, I still think certain characters and things are stupid broken and I hate them, but I'm forced to deal with it and figure it out eventually. Maybe the game being more fluid helps, but it's ridiculous how different the way Melee is played today from 10 years ago.
I’m new to fighting games, started playing SF5 like six months before SF6 came out, so I’m not an expert. I think SF6 is very far from a bad game. It feels very smooth, fast paced, and it’s nice to hit buttons. Balance wise, the game has it’s top tiers and they can feel oppressive at times, but overall the game feels extremely balanced. I’m obviously not a fighting game God but I’ve made it to diamond using Kim and I’m still able to win against the stronger characters even if I have to try a little harder. I think it’ll be nice when the game does finally get a balance patch but I don’t have a problem with enjoying the game as it is now, and I think people are being a little too nit picky and impatient over how they personally feel the game should be balanced.
@@teemobadger2037 If you're going to compare games you should compare release to release. SFV release was a turd and it took years to become a worthwhile game. SF6 is miles beyond, and it only will improve, like every other SF.
@@Kool212 Honestly, reason why i say this is cuz SF6 can't really improve. The game mechanics isn't really for much of improvement. Drive rush and Drive impact really ruins the game. Ken and JP are mostly going to be OP for maybe most of this game life cycle. SF6 was rushed and targeted new players to the franchise which isn't all bad but Capcom created too many flaws in Sf6 Perfect Parry trash, Input not working well, Drive impact/Rush is trash. Unacceptable for a new street fighter game. Why you think people are really now just mentioning the problems of the game. Game we be hype in a few updates and will die out again..
Also, balance is a difficult thing. You can change one thing and end up affecting the balance elsewhere. If devs keep changing things too much it can be a neverending quest to "fix" things. At some point, you just have to say it's done. You'll never make everyone happy, and as I said, balance is such a hard thing to perfect.
@@bruceleeds7988He means more like nerfing like 2 or 3 top tier making a bunch of bottom tiers go up like 10 points in their total match up charts and then the one or two that got buffed are now curb stomping people in a weird way.(not always to this extent but you have to look at how a change to one affects how the others interact with the environment/rest of the roster)
I don’t think they are bad but they are definitely not for the casual player any longer. I remember playing sf2 and mk2 in the arcade, you could string together a few moves to get combos but nothing like today where you have to remember and practice 30 different inputs if you want to stand a chance, and losing constantly is not fun. I guess I’m just too old.
I've been playing Kof XV and SamSho (2019) for a long time and I still have a lot of fun with both. Kof is fast and smooth, now has 60+ characters and the 3 vs. 3 concept has always been super fun. SamSho is always exciting, tactical with mind games, as fights can turn completely around with one or two successful heavy hits.
my only complaint with SF6 is with the inputs. I think the game is designed in a fun way to randomize results a bit at a similar skill levels, sort of like playing poker. No one is going on a 4 year winning streak like Jwong did with mvc2, but that might be a good thing for the health of the game. I just dislike the distrust I have for DP, Super, FB motions. . I've been doing them since 1992, I know when something is off
the problem with modern fighting games is the casualization and predatory monetization there is barely any reason to play the same game for a long time because it's so easy to figure out modern games and play modern characters and the abusive dlc, game passes and other garbage makes playing the games a fucking chore because you feel like you are missing out on cool stuff if you don't spend time and money in it
I'd say that fighting games in general are pretty niche. The population is pretty small when you compare it to everything else in gaming. RTS and Fighting games have a pretty high skill cap and aren't very friendly to people getting into the genre. Unfortunately, there's really nothing you can do to curb this and will just have to accept this as it is. The biggest problem is that in most games that have hubs, usually those lobbies are filled with pros so it's unlikely a new player or casual will find someone of similar skill level. Let's face it, the only time someone is really willing to put in a lot of work in a fighting game is when they're planning on going pro. I'm fairly good in fighting games, but I'm no tournament player. I have other things that I need to do (*cough* make a living *cough) than to spend countless hours in a fighting game.
I think modern games are fine. There's a very "rose tinted glasses" view of older fighting games because we were just forced to accept them for what they were. Some people miss the fact that there were no character changes or patches and that would change how you would play the game. People forget that there were different versions of games. The ones available in your neighborhood may not be the latest version depending on the funds of the arcade owner. And before the internet got popularized you as a player might not even know or be aware of that.
Except for games like street fighter we have applications like fightcade in which a lot of people purely stick to those games rather than seeing it through just nostalgia, myself included
This also applies to the amount of "content" FGs are supposed to have now. MK1 is bashed as having no content while it has WAY more than older FGs ever had (where all you would do is basically tower or fight friends/CPU). Now there's a 5h movie + multiple single player modes + practice + online and the game is "barebones". SF6 also created an entire single player thing much bigger than you ever used to have.
@@Shodan130 ...but if you like those games, you like those games warts and all. I love 3rd strike, but I'm not going to say it's better than modern games when there are some serious balancing flaws in the game. Stable does not mean better - just because you know it best doesn't mean it's an objectively better game. I like HnK, and have a good grasp of the system - but I would be silly to say it's better than SF6.
@@LumaTo it’s not even about that, the problem with your line of thinking is that balance is the key aspect of a games quality, when it’s not. And even if it was, did you see evo this year ? We had 6 mirror match grand finals lmao
The thing about the SF6 patch is that the majority of the player base usually have time to learn well one character and that's it. Now you queue up ranked and I if I play 10 matches, 5 at least are Ken players because the character is well you know, I'm not gonna say it's broken but is close to that. Meanwhile new characters like Kim, Manon, Jamie and Aki have an entire new design and look really cool but we are almost punished for playing them so inferior they are to the top tier roster. In the end we want to have fun and waiting 1 year to balance the game is not only disrespectful with the money we putted in but also out of touch with online games from this era. They could have waited 6 months and I bet everyone would be fine with that, but 1 year is so bad. Recently I introduced SF6 to a friend as a new to FGs and he asked me after watching some tourneys why people are always playing the same characters, if the others were that terrible or something. Not gonna lie, I barely watch anything now because I know top 8 will be basically the same 4 characters all over again and again.
completely agree with your comment. And KoF is worse, I love that game but watching tourneys is so boring, there is literally a 50 char roster and you only see ONE char (Iori)... SMDH
The arguments aren’t valid. A fighting game can’t be perfect but the longevity tells a lot about a fighting game. MK1 does not have longevity because it’s just play for color pallets.
Very true. If you’re young and experiencing FGs for the first time, you’re going to be excited. Older people who have played older games live them because that’s what they grew up with. Times are changing, no one wants to play a game that takes 200 hours just to be able to do an inconsistent basic combo. People want to do cool things.
@@Freeeeeeeee27 Then they should use the TRAINING mode to learn how to do cool things. If they aren't even willing to do that, fighting games aren't for them.
I think one of the most balanced fighting games I played if you want to call it balanced was and still is killer instinct. that game had so many ways to counter endless combos, loop throwing and all that and it was fun as hell to play no matter if someone had a 8 hit or even a 30 hit combo. if you knew the characters move set and the difference between a light, medium or heavy punch, kick, throw or special attack, or hyper move you can combo break them. which added a lot of strategy and mad people change up there move set and really didn't allow for spamming moves.
I remember seeing a documentary about killer instinct and the way they tackled potential balance issues. for me it's always been zoners/projectiles that been the biggest problem but I suppose when you fix one problem it causes another. MK1 is not as bad as alot of people say I've been enjoying it, but I can understand at pro level how frustrating it can be.
That's my thing I never understood about any competitive game rather it be shooting or fighting. why do 400 pro players have a bigger voice then the other 20 million people that they claim to play it. whenever a pro ups something that gives them an advantage they keep it in but if they can't adjust to something they take it out. and then they all scream get good while they exploit some bs. if I played a game all day or a couple hours a day you will be good but the problem is that the fighting game companies expect people with actual lives outside of there game to put hours into learning all there characters and when they don't they try to blame the players. SF6 has a lot of bs in it where I have watched no rank or bronze players betting diamond players spamming moves or using modern controls and all competitive games have bitch pick characters that everyone uses like jp, guile, ken, or like apex caustic, or sym in overwatch and then claim its skill win they win knowing they have bs zoning, loop, extended frame combos or whatever@@captainz-man7708
@@slimscorpio09 I hear what your saying and agree with you, unfortunately nowadays gaming companies care more about micro-transactions over the quality and balance of a game. Even pro players we'll spam the hell out of a op top tier characters just to get that win rather than using a character that they enjoy playing or have a connection to. I remember an MK11 tournemant with both players just using robocops rocket launcher move to zone for for entire set. So boring to watch. That's why I miss the 90s with the old school beat m up days. No Internet of online videos to help you, just practice and challenge your mates to get better and maybe the odd computer magazine with some helpful tips.
Killer Instinct is the best fighting game of all games they have the best characters and mechanics and Combo breaker is the best mechanic. Their combo system is so awesome. Never gets boring playing Killer Instinct. Its youtube thats ruining fighting games the 90s were golden you had to figure stuff out on your own and challenge your friends. The very first Killer Instinct is a 2.5D fighting game developed by Rare and published by Midway. It was originally released for arcades in October 1994, and ported to the Super Nintendo Entertainment System and the Game Boy the following year. I grew up as a teen playing this game it was hella fun and still hella fun to play.
yeah I did to but loved when the released for the xbox one. that's why when people try to defend the bs SF6 pulls I truly don't get it. It has nothing to do with skill and everything to do with bad mechanics of the game.@@unixjpn
for me the only thing worse about modern fighting games as opposed to the ones i grew up playing on my Genesis is the monetization. one would have hoped that we may have gotten more bang for our buck now that we don’t actually need to release a completely separate product just to have a four character roster update and some balance patches but that seems to be far from the case if recent MK and SF monetization price gouging is anything to go by. gameplay wise while i’ve been playing fighting games since i was probably 6 or so i’ve never been anything more then a casual, so as long as i can have fun with some single player modes and some couch battles with buddies i’m fine. i actually rarely play online so i can’t speak to that stuff myself.
People like to pretend that when JP, Luke, Ken, and Dee Jay get nerfed and go down in the tier list, they're not going to cry on frame 1 about Lily, Jamie, Manon or Ryu if they get buffs good enough make them the new top tiers... And the same cycle will go on and on, in every single fighting game. Just play the game! Get better, and have fun!
yeah and this fucking guy was liek i dont see a problem with throw loops aer u kidding me? thats stupdi to watch stupid to do and stupid to get hit by is just a bad option in hte game
zangief literally have no invisibility on wake up, not every character can do ex dp, marisa have to eat them, zangief have to eat them, alot of the low tier have to eat them@@PedroAndrade25
Frequent patches in games kills player creativity. If something is strong and you know the game gets balanced frequently, players will just complain until a nerf happens and repeat with the next thing they don't like. When a game is just the way it is, the onus goes onto the players to find solutions to tough problems. Sometimes the imbalance is too big and a patch needs to happen or else the game dies, but SF6 is not at all at that state
Many complaints (not all) with multiplayer games in terms of balance tend to come from a competitive/high level context and fighting games are no exception to that. I think there can often be a failure to recognize that a game's existence isn't based solely on the experience of the best players and how much pressure and difficulty it is on the development team to balance around all angles. A seemingly small/specific balance change angled towards a specific part of the player base can inadvertently have a large ripple effect on the other parts of the player base whether that's lower or higher skill level players. With how mechanically stacked fighting games are these days with so many variables happening at once It's almost an impossibility to make absolutely everyone happy at once. I'm confident games particularly like SF6 will stand the test of time if Capcom plays their cards right, you sometimes don't realize how good you've got it until way later ;)
@@asheroakanor6445 You've seen the rest of the comments section right? This isn't a simple discussion, if you don't have the patience for it don't engage with it.
My only complaints come from 2D games in general. It's all about "footsie, zone, back up, repeat". I get how ppl will say "oh it's a strategy", but as a spectator that is so boring to watch. Gone are the days where people actually fight in games and are in your face. I need Bloody Roar to get a revival. Konami needs to hand over the rights to make it to Namco immediately since they don't even make fighting games.
You must be new to 2D games because that's always been a thing. If you want a game that's "in your face at all times" chaotic just play DragonBall FighterZ, UMVC3 or Blazblue my guy. But then you'll say "Nah those games are boring just touch of death combos" 🤡🤡🤡
I like Strive, I’m starting to get into MK1 and I even got down on idol showdown for 4 hours with the only other random dude online last night, so I like modern fighting games a lot. I just don’t act bitch made about the matchups or the mechanics. Maybe it’s from playing so much overwatch where the meta revolves around active counter picking so you just accept that your worst matchup is up your ass every other push and play the game
I'd say yes as they get more scummy in predatory monetization, battle passes and egregious things they ask you to pay for like fatalities, i don't see it in a healthy state, the idea of "ignoring" it doesn't work when the entire game becomes gimped by "missing out" and only getting WORSE each game
If you complain on reddit about it you get attacked for it. If they are doo keen on decending their game against all reason then I hope they are happy to have it die.
My ONLY complaint as a 42 year old veteran fighting gamer is in SF6, of you have one loss under your belt and get a double KO, you lose and earn nothing. I think double KOs should mean a draw and a draw means no one won.
I think part of it is people needing to take a break. Yes, Ken and JP and Luke’s shenanigans, Drive Rush, and other stuff are stupid, but sometimes you just should play other games for a while if you’re not a competitive player
yh that's true. I also think that complaining about universal mechanics that everyone has access to is a weird thing. At the end of the day it's the same as roman cancels in GGST where some people are gods at using them which makes it feel overpowered in their hands but theoretically everyone can do it with some practice. At the core of it, it's about skill and that's just how fighting games are
People get mad that they lose. Instead of taking a break, they angrily queue up for another match. They lose again. They get even angrier. Then again, and again. So yeah, people absolutely need to take breaks or learn how to deal with defeat. Or both. Play more games, etc.
@@FieryAnubisy'all are talking in a casual way to say oh people are complaining especially when the game has modern controls and easy access moves that take absolutely no skills at all.
There’s one core issue about the FGC’s expectations that is never addressed when it comes to balance patches. We don’t need ONE big patch a year. We don’t need one single patch to rebalance the whole game, that’s not the only way to do it. More frequent patches that touch only a few characters at a time can keep balance swings in check better, address the extreme cases, the God and Trash tiers, and little by little tweak the cast. We are used to this format because older games had whole revisions from time to time, Super, AE, Ultra etc. That’s not how every other genre does balance nowadays, and it doesn’t have to be like that for the FGC if we move on from that approach.
Other games patch just to have variety not let their meta develop. Only Ken has been consistently considered top tier. Many other characters have slid up and down without a single balance patch.
My impression is SF6 brought in a bunch of new fighting game players who are not use to the idea of needing a full year to really figure a character out before you need to nerf or buff them. Just look at Kim in beta, or all the people who wanted Honda nerfed.
That’s the great thing about SF6, it exposed the hypocrites. They said SFV was “too easy”, now they complain SF6 is “too hard”. So they bounce to another game hoping it will accommodate their BS. FGC player rinse and repeat.
For me there’s nothing more frustrating than learning a character then they get nerfed and nerfs are so often you constantly have to learn new shit and if you miss a patch all of a sudden a whole meta shifted
Tekken 8 heat system, there have been balance changes to it from alpha to beta. Not just with tekken 8 roster, there are so many characters and so many diversity to these characters that not everyone will fight the same with them. From what I’ve seen from streamers who played the tekken 8 beta and alpha online has been good. I’m sure it’ll be be a great experience when it’s out
My issue with modern fighting games are that they took away all difficult execution in the game and now it's trivial to do the hardest most damaging combo making it trivial to optimize.
I thought Street Fighter 4 struck the right balance. Crisp combos and tech, but was also fun to play on a basic level. These days it feels like option selects and deep tech have been toned down.
SF4 was like a "reboot" to the series. They stayed true to the basics with some new systems/techs splashed into it. SF5 and SF6 feels like Capcom needs to one up themselves in making systems which are better than the next game. If they don't then players will complain how new X game plays similar to old Y game. (There are also players who won't complain)
@@ryuno2097SF2 was a radical change from SF1. SF3 was a radical change from 2. 4 was even more radical from 3. But 5 and 6 just feel like derivatives of 4, I mean they’re still using the same giant sumi-e hit sparks ffs.
@@mikeg2491 They are different because the derivatives was sold as a new game instead of a patch note bruh. Are you telling me 4 has the same shield/EX hybrid meter as 6?
I totally agree about the lack of Offline mattering. It's not just that they're more hype for me, but they're also easier to get people interested in the games in the first place. Someone who doesn't play isn't going to watch an online tournament, or it's a harder sell. But if they see a room of people also watching and being hype, somehow it seems like it's easier to convince them.
This is exactly the same argument Ive been having with friends. Half of us stopped playing SF6 because of the mechanics and we dropped Strive for that too. The other half love these kind of mechanics and still love SF6 and Strive
The fact that proyect L is going to be the peak and future of fighting games standards is insane to me. Imputs will be gone forever if it becomes too popular
Tekken 7 vs 8 from what I've seen are issues that have come up in tekken 7 but not as much which is jailing and weird moves being considered high, med, low when they don't match properly in animation or thei animation overlaps with others but does something completely different in the exact same scenario. The heat system was definitely an issue in beta 1 but they seem to be getting the hang of it better. I'm not too experienced but this is what I've noticed and sometimes heard complaints about.
you're right about the jailing. traditionally the highs in tekken are duckable, particularly if it's a high at the end of a string, and especially if that string also has a mid ender option. it's been a pretty universal rule that if the defender can read the high, they should be rewarded for ducking it with a chance to punish. now instead you get hit for damage and frame advantage, maybe even a knockdown or launch for trying to apply that ingrained universal game knowledge worse, this isn't a universal change but applies to a random assortment of moves across the roster, which far from punishing legacy skill only makes the game overall more knowledge check based and dependant on specific matchup knowledge, since there is no universal unspoken rule for new players to naturally pick up and apply, only the grind of learning every single string in the game just to not eat highs that in previous games you could have just learned to duck in general and been fine against you pointed out quite correctly that these types of inconsistencies are a main complaint from players. the devs' approach to making the game more "noob-friendly" seems for a while now to have been to introduce more basic, execution light characters and more easy moves with overpowered evasion, crushing, armor, guard breaks etc. the irony is that this only complicates the game and makes it more matchup knowledge focused, making it harder to know how to deal with situations, characters and moves that you're not familiar with or know the "answer" to, especially when many such moves might appear similar to each other but require totally different answers players coming to tekken from most other fighting games can easily tell that the real source of tekken's difficulty is not the execution but the sheer volume and variety of moves. it's much harder to pick up a character with 100+ moves than it is to pick up one with under 50, and that difficulty is multiplied by the number of other characters whose key moves one has to know how to deal with in order to have a chance. this problem could be at least partially solved by letting similar moves carry similar properties, like, say, having all df2s either crush highs or not, having all df1s track every ssr/swr or not, etc. obviously each character does have signature moves that ought to remain unique and interesting to preserve their identity, but standardizing more generic move properties across the board is a decision that honestly many of us don't understand why bamco are so hesitant to commit to. maybe they think it would make the game boring? you're right too about heat getting less bad. there were definitely bugs and oversights with it in the cnt that got addressed in the beta, particularly concerning how meter functioned mid combo as well as some other things like damage scaling and combo reset jank. there are a few characters who still have some really oppressive heat cheese, but those are more specific balancing issues that will doubtless be dealt with down the line, and I hope not any more harshly than needed
@@zyklqrswx Fighting games will unavoidably evolves into a knowledge check sooner or later unless you want to cut back the roster as hard as MK1/1st release Strive. That's the only way to keep the game "fresh" without devolving into more Leroy DLCs
If you dont like a game, dont play it! Theres no obligation to play, especially if youre not having fun. Even if sf6 could make some changes, the sheer amount of games to choose from today is awesome!
My thing is, there are so many games out there with so many wild and crazy mechanics and no one will ever universally agree on a good one. 3rd strike is heralded as the best game in the series by a lot of people and you have a high level player like Daigo going "meh I don't really like the parry mechanic" If you play a game long enough, you're GOING to find things to complain about, and most of it will probably be mechanic based or character based. Hell I wouldn't doubt that we have people that clocked in my hours of sf6, then the goddamn play testers did. Enjoy the damn game for what it is and watch the evolution of how far it'll go from season 1
respectfully, three-quarters of what you're talking about are niche eSports competitor takes about the CPT and what not, but that stuff doesn't affect 99% of us. most players are being drawn in or pushed away by roster composition, post launch content support, presentation, and DLC pricing. no way my guy made a 20 minute video about issues with modern fighting games and didn't utter a word about launch roster sizes, Season Pass composition, or the pricing of microtransactions. 💀💀
Yeah I feel like Justin should do some kind of weekly round-up, just talking about the popular topics in the fgc of that particular week. Obviously there is Triple KO, but getting his thoughts out there early on his own channel is good business too. I mean Max did too it why can't he. No better time than now with all of the recent and future releases.
@@sheyadkins6524 Ehh different perspectives and target audiences help everybody ultimately. The amount of people hearing Max bitch about the shitty price situation means more overall to the fgc compared to hearing it from the top fighting game pros. Same thing like people rather hear Lythero and Co complains about DBFZ not having rollback than they do all of the top pros combined. Its just reality.
I am a KoF and Tekken player through and through. But I still love Soul Calibur for how deep it is for veterans AND how accessible it was for beginners.
Something considered bad existing from way before sf6 doesnt make it less bad (if it actually is) Mario games kept their points system till the first 3d games (and was present even in both Mario Makers) The issue is, the point system doesnt add anything of value on modern, console Mario games. Nintendo eventually took em out, which could ve considered an evolution of something bad that just kept coming back
One thing I noticed in Smash Bros. Melee and Marvel vs. Capcom 2 is that there's about 5 characters that rise to the top. The God tier is focused on for both of those games. And I theorize a lot of more intense fighting games are like that also.
Games where a select few characters dominate the roster are just poorly balanced. Under no circumstance is it a sign of a good game. If it was, Super Smash Brothers Brawl would be the best fighting game of all time, seeing as Meta Knight is literally the only tournament viable character in that game.
@@CaptainDCap That's different from what I'm saying... I'm saying FIVE characters. Around that number. Your example has ONE character dominating and there's no competition for him. The reason why I think 5 is a magic number is because when you think about it, there's probably an ideal of each archetype. An ideal rushdown, an ideal zoner, an ideal shoto, an ideal turtle, so on. It makes sense because the other characters of the same archetype are relegated by the existing ideal characters. EDIT: Also, you should know that Melee and MvC2 are considered 2 of the best fighting games of all time.
Every fighting game is like that. Players are forever going to fine the best ways to win, which includes finding the best characters. No amount of patching is going to change that, especially at higher levels.
I can't even PLAY a Nether Realm fighter. I can't tell when to input my next attack by the animations (there is no clean break), I just feel like I'm flailing.
I played Justice League Task Force for a year cause that's all I got for Christmas. It was absolute dog water. Modern gamers have no right to complain. We got it made
One of the biggest problems with reddit and/or current forum media is that these complains get louder but have no more substance than before. "Nerf this because annoys me or buff that because I want to win more" always existed but no one listened because it was someone shouting at a wall.
That's fair to say the balance has been like this previously where you have to wait a year. But my counter to that it is... that's the past. The same way we've moved into "Live Service" instead of selling a new version of the game should mean we move forward with other things too. I don't think it really works that way for anything else either. If so, that would mean we should strip away accessibility options because "it's always been that way until now".
I am impressed by anyone that still can open SF6, queue for ranked and feel enticed to grind for hours... After taking multiple characters into Master I cant stand to look at this game no more, all matches just feel the same. Drive Rush, Parry and DI feel super stale for me now. Dont get me wrong, the game is fantastic, clocked hundreds of hours and it flew by, but now I am hoping for a meta shakedown and looking forward for new characters
For some reason all of them seem to be going in the same direction of faster & simpler games. I can't recall the last time I had a game go to time in SF6 or Strive. In fact Strive is an insult to what GG was about, really. Ultimately, these games can't hold my attention for more than 2 months.
Games are allowed to change. Strive wanted to try something different and it was very successful for ArcSys. A reimagining isn't an insult to the series, especially when so much love was put into it.
Modern fighting games are under the hugest microscope ever. People have too much time and play way too much of it. Couple that with how overly critical everyone gets about anything and everything and it's a recipe for disaster. MK, and Street Fighter are at their best currently
lmao that ending was perfect, you gotta hold that shit and get good. But I truly do understand where he was coming from with The King of Fighters, it is such an amazing game that really never had a chance to get of the ground unfortunately. I hope that it gets revisited because that game deserves so much love for shatter my expectations.
Combos ruined fighting games. The stupid chaining together of combos broke fighting games. Do you know how amazing Marvel vs Capcom was supposed to be?! Combos make it unplayable
No throw loops in KOF15. I'm not sure how KOF15 hasn't overtaken the FGC. It's a far superior game to anything Capcom has pumped out in the last decade.
Because they botched the match making after launch and the meta becoming one touch death combos is lame. I wanted it to succeed too but they really fumbled the post launch support. They should have gotten more cross over characters like Haohmaru and ran with the CvS2 vibes.
@Choom7 I1 have no issues with matchmaking and TODs are only possible with anchors with full resources, and even then, not many characters have them. It's not like BFTG where the first character can TOD the whole team
Weird take on throw loops: I don’t care wether they’re strong or weak, it’s fun either way. What makes them frustrating is the length of the throw. SF throws are fast and snappy so it keeps the flow of the match going; MK throws can be fast but feel like they’re usually 5 seconds long and kinda ruin pacing in my opinion
I love these discussion vids! And I'd also like to see you try out KOFXV's matchmaking as it is now. So far, I've got no complaints about it! But I think it'd mean a lot more after YOU showcase it. Then maybe a Netcode stress test. Play against players all around the world and see how the network holds up. 'Course, that's if it sounds fun to you. Time zones might make things difficult.
I wouldn't say modern fighting games are bad. More like they made bad decisions that hurt the games, whether it being balance issues, poor online rollback netcode, cutting out certain characters, or in some cases, drastically changing a character to make him or her worse, expensive amount of DLC, overpricing a barebone game at launch, and the worst offender, an insanely sluggish loot-boxed unlock system. So, really, modern fighting games don't suck its just that the developers behind those AAA fighting games make bad decisions that ruin their games for some people.
Sf6 is great. Monetization not so much. I should be rewarded for playing the game. Doing anything should reward a small amount of coins and it should be able to unlock anything if i put in the work. If not, the base game should be free to play. I get tired of the constant whiny instant gratification crowd, but im used to it in the FGC. "Old game good, new game bad" never changes
I think they are bad… or rather not what I want in a fighting game, the 90’s era of games are simple, you could take any fg player play ST with them and in about 15 minutes they will get it. Same with tekken if you look at tag 1 to T8. The only games really boasting complexity was the anime games. But now it’s the entire genre The director of VF commented on it recently saying that there is a trend among FG’s at the moment where they add in a bunch of mechanics to make it complex and then try to force in comeback mechanics or similar to try compensate, FG’s used to be simple relatively speaking. And we kinda lost that But honestly that’s fine, complex games are better suited for the big stage, personally I just want the games I like to have rollback and then it’s all sweet, and for the most part we do… unless you are a tekken player lol. They just gotta hold that
I think they're great for the most part. MK is way better that the old ones. Street fighter Alpha 3 is still my fav. I think MVC got worse as they went on lol. All and all I like em and hope they keep making more. The big one I want someone to make is a Marvel fighting game...or a Marvel vs DC!
Guilty gear doesnt have throw loops because strike beats throw. You can always mash and beat throw, this makes throwing someone and extremely confident thing to do. In sf6 you have throws which beat strike, plus you can anti air the jump , so your only option realistically is backdash and even gief cant do that and punish since his backdash is trash.
Guilty Gear doesn't have universal parry and it have different playing style than SF where ArcSys wants the players to keeps attacking and comboing and much less neutral and footsies play because they gave you superior mobility both ground and air that can skip neutral. So throw loop isn't make sense in GG but make sense in SF. And there's more option outside backdash to defend from throw loops. You need to learn fuzzy tech like delay throw tech, delay jab, etc. I reccomend to watch Sajam Fuzzy Tech video or Diaphone 'How to use Option Select for beginner to advanced'. Both are great videos and they also played Guilty Gear.
Sounds sad, but is true. And note limiting to fighting games. In general, the entire industry of videogames is worse. There are no videogame done like the old times, and is a bit sad...
Personally I agree with Justin with SF6. The game is balanced for 99.99% of the playerbase, the only minor issue is seeing the same characters in top top level tournaments. But besides that, I would not want monthly or bimonthly patches. I would just drop the game, I don't want to have to relearn stuff so often. Right now I feel comfort on stop playing for a week or two, get back and see the stuff I already learned still working.
Crazy part about all this. I mentioned part of this in one of james videos. In his comment section i was told that the "get gud" approach was basically unnecessary. I gave up at that point because its like people are trying to eliminate the fun (actually learning matchups) parts of the game instead just going to the lab. I love all fighting games but man, a lot of the whining takes it outta me and makes me not want to even bother with some of these games sometimes. Great take king
They're not bad but I still feel myself having a lot more fun with the older games. Not sure why I just freaking love Marvel Vs Capcom 2, X-men vs Sf, Alpha 2 and 3, 3rd strike, Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo. Mk1-3 and Trilogy, og Killer Instinct, Capcom vs Snk2 ect ect. I've even gotten into playing older fighters I didn't play when I was younger like the Darkstalkers games more than the new fighters I've bought. I just love replaying them. I think also maybe with new games people may be focusing too much on the competitive side of it and just not having fun. Is having prize pools for fighting games and huge events cool? Yea for sure but I think a lot of us back in the day would just play fighting games for fun and try to find people to play the games with locally FOR FUN. Fun against people at an arcade or your school friends or your cousins/relatives on home consoles. I get the feeling that most young kids today are not going to each others houses to play Street Fighter 6 or any of the new games. Playing Ranked online is not the same as playing against some friends at home or at an arcade. With friends that are normies its fun to learn together vs going online today and playing against randos who just pummel you into the ground in Ranked lol. It's not the same! Unless your a competitive player actively going to and searching for events most people probably do not get to experience the pleasure of playing against others in real life anymore. In a way it's kind of amazing that the fighting game is even still around. Even though we have fighting games on home consoles and computers to play against others online , the experience of playing against someone side by side in person is a critical component to the genre at least in my opinion. I don't think the new games are bad. We just live in strange times man.
Max Dood actually had a video about fighting game balance recently and it's absolutely worth a watch. I don't think modern fighting games are bad so much as I think having balance is incredibly difficult no matter what kind of fighting game you're making. I don't believe that a game will ever be completely and perfectly balanced.
Bro, there's nothing about Max Dood that is worth watching. He's shill who vomits out, like, ten videos per day and they come down to repeating every (non-opiniated) sentence at least up to three times, for duration, I guess. He speaks a lot without saying anything, repeating phrases like "oh, wow", "this is crazy", "this game is insane" and shit that are now meaningless colloquialisms on YT. I understand that many of YTubers got into fighting games thanks to him, but it's time to remove nostalgia glasses and face the times. It's channels like his that are responsible for shutting up constructive criticism and now we have these uninspired, politically correct characters whose gameplay boils down to math behind frame data, endless learning of matchups and zero fun and appeal. Max and pick-pocket shill channels alike also constantly defend dlc and microtransaction practices, convincing the weak-minded that it is okay to spend their (parents) hard earned money on the half-assed product which they endorse. If nothing else, Max should be dealt with asap.
@@VileGlory This is true only in part. VF5US has very unique characters, but it's considered to be fairly balanced. The trick is to homogenize the strongest system mechanics so that individual kits don't matter as much. Using SF6 as an example, DR is a mechanic that is strong and is available to everyone, but it is unevenly applied to each character. It makes balancing the game difficult.
4:15 i honestly dont understand this mentality, "it's always been like this" is not an excuse or a real argument to why they can't improve on frustrating or undesirable aspects of the game, like it's just insane to me, like when parents beat up they children because their parents did that to them when they were kids
For the corner game its a huge 50:50 with variables on how to react them. A lot of games end up finding solid BnB even in other genres, but 1v1 makes it feel that much more personal. Abigail on release was knocking people silly foe 50 50s until people learned how to rock paper scissors with all options & balance came from people working on counter fundamentals
Personally, I think devs becoming too involved with the completive scene is hurting fighting games. Also, characters are becoming a little too flow charty and homogenized.
The complaints about every game are always the same. This character’s broken, this mechanic is stupid, ect. You could have just as easily said ARE ALL FIGHTING GAMES BAD?
« Buff this character please »
Its the same hivemind every time, if you even try to enjoy something you'll get bashed for it.
All fighting games are bad though.
Exactly
What about those that hate the game for non-gameplay reasons?
People need to realize that this is a bad case of “careful what you wish for”. People complained about invincible wake up DPs and crouch tech, and ended up with throw loops. People complained about buying a the game for the update, and ended up with microtransactions. People kept accusing tournament organizers of being greedy and now there’s no offline majors. You can argue if it is for the best or not, but this is what people asked for. Now we gotta live with it
This, FGC "pros" are whiny and don't even fully understand the consequences of what they wish for.
who asked for life to increase in suckage? i didn't.
i don't see the problem with invincible wake up dps
it's a nice way to break off of a bad situation and if the enemy sees it's coming they can block then punish, it's a good mechanic
I completely agree with this comment it's simple reap what you sow
The devs are giving you what you want now you want something else this not how it goes we are grown ass men and women just enjoy a kid game don't go bitching like a five year old literally git gud
I'm trying to develop my own fighting game u think I'm a listen to everything people say hell fucking nah because people will literally ruin their own shit and blame it on the devs btw I have no issue with SF6 I love it fighting games should be more offensive than defensive
Like the music industry
“It’s meant to be broken/cheap.”
Thank you Justin for reminding me why I stopped playing assist fighters.
He reminded me why I stopped playing MvC2 so many years ago.
Definitely some mechanic and character stuff worth discussing, but my only real gripes w/ the game has been the predatory costume pricing and lack of value in editions/season passes. I think a bunch of fun collabs with reasonable costumes and stuff would've kept the game fresh and in the honeymoon phase longer.
I completely agree. I actually thought that would be the premise of the video. I can handle Ken and JP, but sketchy in-game currency and $10 fatalities are the real problems, in my opinion.
FGs should be free to play. They already have freemium monetization. Just sell the campaign for 30-40 bucks separately. Nobody wants to pay 100+ bucks for the game+season pass dlc. The characters shouldn't be paid dlc in the first place. Every other game already figured out that selling content is a bad idea for multiplayer games cuz it fragments playerbase, so you just sell skins and a battlepass instead.
@@saxmanmelat least NRS started backpedaling on the price and even stated that the upcoming fatalities will be free for those who bought the current ones, and will be cheaper for others. Sure, fatalities should be available through completing something in the game or just for free in general since its a core part of MK, but there is no point in not admitting when they are at least taking steps in the right direction. Capcom on the other hand just doesn’t care that its ridiculous that you have to spend 108$ if you want to buy costumes for every character, nor that you have to buy 2x250 currency if you want to buy one.
@@1InVader1 FGs don't have a big enough crowd to be F2P and have only cosmetics as its monetization
@@TBKSSS FGs also have character passes as their monetization. In the example of SF6 the core audience will end up spending $90+ just on characters alone because they deem it necessary for the game. That's 1.5x the price of the base game, and the amount of development that goes into those characters is significantly less than developing an entirely new game, meaning the internal cost is significantly lower and the profit margin is significantly higher for the company, and that's just characters, not skins. Skins should be like 3 for $5 or $2-4 individually when you have a full-priced game and multiple paid "seasons" (character passes).
You also have to keep in mind that buying the game is the games "monetization". These games aren't given the same budget as your normal AAA title and expected to make a profit off of a significantly smaller audience than something like Fortnite, the budgets are scaled back significantly in comparison. Do companies expect to earn more over time with DLC? Yes, however, the initial game was developed with a specific budget in order to accommodate making a profit on an audience of its size before DLC. Please don't make excuses for companies to continue to push the envelope in order to bleed us dry.
The only thing that annoys me about the discourse around SF6 is when people treat the game like it has 90s fighting game balance even though it's shockingly balanced for a new fighting game release. Of course there's some standout low tiers and high tiers where the power level doesn't feel fair but it's impossible for a developer to foresee this kind of stuff until alot of players get their hands on the full roster. You could definitely argue the game would have benefitted from 2 balance patches in it's first year but it's really not THAT bad.
This is why we have free beta tests before a launch. Meanwhile mk practically charged people to beta test their post launch game
Outside of JP on the top end and then Honda on the bottom end S1's character balance was pretty good. The issue with SF6 is more some of the mechanics risk/reward being off and bugs that have been a thing since the betas (Drive rush eating inputs, the sloppy input reader)
I hope that the Tekken 8 team is investing a lot of their time and resources to solidify a good online experience because there are a bunch of really cool looking characters that I can't wait to learn.
I'm expecting Tekken 8's netcode to be slightly less bad than Tekken 7 strictly because of Harada's hardline stance when everyone was talking rollback. Despite him saying T7 had rollback, it was a piss-poor implementation. Hopefully, I'm wrong but I don't have too much hope they'll actually change that.
@@originalscreenname44 the only concern right now is that netcode is based on how good your pc are, if you or your opponent has a shit pc the netcode will slow down the game, this was an issue during CBT so hopefully its fixed. PS5/Xbox players have no problem though
@zoran6850at least in Tekken the fighters will always feel and have some of their combos same as their previous games. Unlike Mortal Kombat where each character plays different with every new game since MK9.
You need to always re-learn your character in MK. 😂
Tekken 7 was out for almost a decade before Tekken 8 is gettingn released. It doesn't h ave to be balanced at the start. They probably expect Tekken 8 to be out a good 8 years before word of Tekken 9 even gets start. So they aren't going to be investing anything at the jump in terms of it being a "Solid" online experience.
I was just referring to the netcode being capable of supporting good online play. Balance on the roster doesn't concern me on launch. @@ruminating1596
My biggest problem with modern fighting games is the way there being monatised to much of game is locked behind a pay wall from outfits to the colors it's gotten ridiculous and needs to stop where being changed 60 to 70 to 100$ for these games and where getting less the half the content we use to and it's even worse when they diside that instead of normal money they need to use there own premium currency so you don't actually know how much your spending for one item and ofcoers there's the dame battle pass like enough already just give me the game without all this bs
thats why the old games are peak, you can get them for a dime and get everything in one package
Old fighting games maby but old games their sky high in price
A longer patch cycle is definitely better when concerning fighting games. Letting the game's meta/counter strategies develop is much healthier than rushing to balance stuff without truly understanding the dynamic of what is happening, why its happening and do the characters have a answer for it.
Been saying this for ages. The best FGs of all time are all broken buggy messes, but people figured out how to work the jank in their favor. Devs need to let shit develop instead of listening to babies on reddit.
this years CPT already has 6 deejays, 8 lukes, and 6 ken’s qualified. at this rate top 8 is gonna be all luke, ken, and maybe like one other character. sf6 meta has been figured out for months and 1 patch a year is terrible mate.
Yeah. FGs shouldn't be treated like MOBA games.
Im an avid CvS2 player, even entering (just a local tho) tourney occassionally, and i find it funny to utilize the roll cancel mechanics that is long considered to be a "bug" in the game.
It is what it is, as long as its enjoyable~
@@nicorobin7762exactly idk why people wanna act blind to the fact that the game has been pretty much solved for months now lol
I think the only thing annoying about modern fighting games is how many are removing mechanics. Especially when they remove mechanics that are integral to the game’s identity. Strive probably got the worst of this with removing (reworking) Gatlings making burst full screen and simplifying the characters. People like to complain about anything but I think this speaks to what the heart of the issue is. No one has a problem with Granblue being a thing because it’s trying new things. But taking stuff out of a game without putting stuff in makes it feel like the game is losing its identity in a way.
But seeing as strive is the most successful guilty gear I say they did good
@@MemeLordCrusader There's a lot more factoring into how well Strive did. Simplifying it was good to bring in new players, but it definitely wasn't everything.
@HEXDRIX is like 70% of it. I'm still playing the game because of the simplification
@MemeLordCrusader I'm sorry then if that's the problem then people are just getting worse at fighting games and expect the developers to cater to them
@careyanderson6567 I have capitalism on my side. I win !
Best quote of 2023, "their is no such thing as a balanced fighting game. So you guys got to
Hold that @#!$ or get good". Love it.
I can't remember who it was, but someone said "You don't want a 5-5 matchup for all characters," and they were right. That would be the most boring fighting game on Earth if every character was dead even.
Which is a quote from an ignorant person who has a narrow experience of fighting games. All the good fighting games don't get enough exposure. SF, MK and Tekken are all the franchises that get the most attention and they are all trash.
@@24framedavinci39 I respect that’s how you feel.
@@24framedavinci39 Would you care to give some examples of "good" fighting games?
@@24framedavinci39mk is true, sf nah and tekken HELL nah tekken is fire
"There's no such thing as a balanced fighting game. So you guys gotta hold that shit or get good." -J.Wong 2023
Like yugioh, it’s an inherently broken thing. You either adapt, play with your group or get smashed on.
Tekken says otherwise anybody in that game can win a major tbh. Other than that he’s right
@@Saixjacket In a broken fighting game, adapting means using the good characters and abandoning the bad ones. That's sounds pretty terrible.
@@nujevad28 then play with your friend group or get smashed on, it’s just like real life. If you want big brother to curate the experience, power creep happens to push product at your expense, yeah. Start a union 🤣
@@Saixjacket You can make it unique without making it OP. Mid is good unlike the 100th iteration of SF with Tokido Ken
I think modern fighting games are in a weird spot because it's hard to please BOTH parties of players(newcomers and veterans). Companies want more than their foreseeable profit, and the easiest way is a higher player count. But with fighting games being as depth heavy as they are, it can be a turn-off.
That’s why games suck it’s all about money. These companies make money regardless yet y’all act like a billion dollar game is going to die so you accept less
Then they need to stop stop pleasing both parties. Fuck it.
@@theprojecteleven It was a little fun getting a close friend of mine into sf6. He surprisingly didn't even take to modern controls either.
Remember when capcom lied and said there would be noob games and expert games simultaneously?
@@frostbitefallseven with Modern controls, fighting games are still difficult to get into for the average gamer.
Aside for the technical perspective, modern fighting games are missing a lot of the soul and the heart that they had in the 90’s.
Fr this is the only comment I agree with wholeheartedly
Street fighter 6 just feels soulless
I really hate to be that guy, but everyone needs to remember the games released this year are likely the first fighting games a large number of people have played. They were not around in the days when we got what we got and learned to appreciate the little eccentricities of our favorite games. In an age where games are expected to be updated forever, it makes sense that complaints will immediately rise up and no immediate response means the game is dead.
“There’s no such thing as a balanced game so you better own that shit or get good”
Best fucking quote of the year. I love it.
This
League also has a rotating character set and an incentive to make keep characters in line. Imagine if we had to buy Ken separately from the base game and then they ended up nerfing him? In LoL folks would just buy the next character + cosmetics meaning there's a conflict of interest. @reddfox01
I think a perfectly balanced game is impossible - but when something is busted...then it's busted. Balance should be something to strive for, but something that can never truly be achieved.
There is, in fact, a perfectly balanced fighting game, it is called Street Fighter 1 where there is only one playable character.
Trying to balance fighting games too much runs the risk of the game becoming boring.
@reddfox01i don’t know about that. if a fighting game would be perfectly balanced and every match up would be 5-5 it would be the most boring game ever. it is incredibly difficult to balance fighting games and a lot of folks don’t realize how truly difficult it is in a 1on1 2D fighter. if we want to keep different archetypes and playstyles with a wide spectrum of characters that feel fundamentally different, perfect balance won’t ever be possible.
I think streamers and pro gamers chasing the cup have an outsized impact on the perception of SF6. I've seen several streamers complaining about how they are bored of SF6.
If you are playing a game for a job it stops being a game and I think you need to be self aware enough to realize that casual players are not going to experience burnout at the same rate.
I think jwong does a great job of straddling this line by keeping the energy high and leaning into some of the goofiness in the game.
This is by no means unique to SF6, streamer content rushing through RPGs or really any new game truly ruins the experience for casual gamers who are just putting in a couple hours after work.
Facts, I would outright argue they need to stop making content that caters to cup chasers/streamers period if the genre doesn't live or die by them like fighting games
Yea. I got a job already so I play for fun and escapism.
My take on all this is that the FGC is huge. We have so many new players and old who don’t know and forget about the same problems that plague fighters for years. Honestly I feel I’m reliving the worse part of the FGC all over again since my early days in 2001.
Game is 💀 the problem is this new games are for snowflakes
@@miquebts i literally have no idea what you are trying to communicate but i agree with you 100%
Copium... All e-sport scene including FGC completely dying because many people's don't care about competitive scene anymore
@@fuu6490the FGC is bigger than ever before. EVO is the best example for that
@@Jo-Iggi
the FGC is to be fair arguably the purest form of competitive community there is. if you ever go to an actual offline event you’ll see. no toxic kids and teens, no pissing contest, everyone is friendly, helps everyone who is new and people celebrate the genre of fighting games as a whole at each event. EVO has more players than ever before, next gen games sold immensely well and on top of that the FGC was created by people who love the game, not eSports and corporate companies.
the community has it’s flaws but true FGC which online toxic kids don’t belong to, is one of the most wholesome communities out there. the vibe is very different at events than at a major for FPS, BR or MOBA games.
KOF 15's online is fixed now. Not a ton of people queuing ranked, but thanks to the online being solid I usually have no problem finding multiple matches in a row against different people
KOF XV to me is the best Fighting Game in the last 10 years I can think of. I suck at it, but that game just feels great to play. Matchmaking works now. I hate the auto combo. Other than that, I have no complaints about the gameplay. Would love them to add a mode where you can have a 1v1 & a tag mode like KOF XI. I know it is blasphemous to the KOF Community to have a 1v1 Mode & splitting the player base, but I just think you'll get more Players playing the game & hopefully they graduate to the 3v3 KOF style.
The option to play 1v1 is there in almost all KOF games, you just have to remember that the game system is balanced around 3v3.
@sikalivalery143 you can't play it online .
KOFXV is just really damn good. Pretty much every character in it feels like the best iteration of themselves in terms of the cool shit they can do. Duo Lon especially felt like an amalgamation of everything that was cool about him past games plus some completely new sauce. They even somehow made Sylvie kinda fun.
I sincerely hope there is a Season 3. Pretty much every Season 2 character was hype.
@@sikalivalery143 we want to play 1v1 online. That would help the game a lot.
The problem with kof 15 is that it looks so so bad
It doesnt inspire you to play at all
If you are a characters as functions person
And you only care about gameplay and nothing else
Then i can understand
But i personally dont think ill stick with the game, it just feels soulless to me
Even more so than tekken 8 or sf6
Kof15 matchmaking does work now, looking forward to seeing more of it here hopefully 🙏🏽
Justin is from the older Gen of fighting game pros who were used to games that had maybe one or two revisions per game for the arcade version, and for me, I'm used to games not having super hard nerfs to things as well. Sometimes things are just hella strong. Adapting to the situation, matchups or circumstance is so much more important than just some nerf a dev tosses out super fast. Not to say hot fixes are bad, but they don't give the community time to really assess the whole picture of balancing. Also lol that ending
People nowadays just can enjoy things for what they are. They want everything to be changed and "perfected" to their liking, instead of taking something with its flaws and strengths. Era of the spoiled kids
the internet giving all those spoiled kids echo chambers definitely reinforced the issue as well
Biggest of Facts. And unfortunately the devs cave to them.
Maybe it's because the first fighting game I got into was Melee, but because it's an old game and the only "patch" is the PAL version, you kind of just have to accept the game is the way it is. That doesn't mean I have to like everything, I still think certain characters and things are stupid broken and I hate them, but I'm forced to deal with it and figure it out eventually. Maybe the game being more fluid helps, but it's ridiculous how different the way Melee is played today from 10 years ago.
Do you mean cant?
People can't take criticism and have shorter attention spans and zero patience. They need to learn all that all over again.
I’m new to fighting games, started playing SF5 like six months before SF6 came out, so I’m not an expert. I think SF6 is very far from a bad game. It feels very smooth, fast paced, and it’s nice to hit buttons. Balance wise, the game has it’s top tiers and they can feel oppressive at times, but overall the game feels extremely balanced. I’m obviously not a fighting game God but I’ve made it to diamond using Kim and I’m still able to win against the stronger characters even if I have to try a little harder. I think it’ll be nice when the game does finally get a balance patch but I don’t have a problem with enjoying the game as it is now, and I think people are being a little too nit picky and impatient over how they personally feel the game should be balanced.
SFV is a better game. Sf6 is all about drive rush and impact...
@@teemobadger2037 If you're going to compare games you should compare release to release. SFV release was a turd and it took years to become a worthwhile game. SF6 is miles beyond, and it only will improve, like every other SF.
@@Kool212 Honestly, reason why i say this is cuz SF6 can't really improve. The game mechanics isn't really for much of improvement. Drive rush and Drive impact really ruins the game. Ken and JP are mostly going to be OP for maybe most of this game life cycle. SF6 was rushed and targeted new players to the franchise which isn't all bad but Capcom created too many flaws in Sf6 Perfect Parry trash, Input not working well, Drive impact/Rush is trash. Unacceptable for a new street fighter game. Why you think people are really now just mentioning the problems of the game. Game we be hype in a few updates and will die out again..
@@teemobadger2037 This is insane levels of cope. This game was anything but rushed. SF6 can and will improve.
@@Kool212 Ok and I can bet on it. SF6 is a joke my friend. People were and still fake hyping how good this game is...
Also, balance is a difficult thing. You can change one thing and end up affecting the balance elsewhere. If devs keep changing things too much it can be a neverending quest to "fix" things. At some point, you just have to say it's done. You'll never make everyone happy, and as I said, balance is such a hard thing to perfect.
Remember sf5, when they nerfed Laura's MK Knee and that one changed rendered her "unplayable"?
@@bruceleeds7988He means more like nerfing like 2 or 3 top tier making a bunch of bottom tiers go up like 10 points in their total match up charts and then the one or two that got buffed are now curb stomping people in a weird way.(not always to this extent but you have to look at how a change to one affects how the others interact with the environment/rest of the roster)
sfv in the end ended up extremely balanced besides luke who was made intentionally strong.
The more I see it, the more I want it to be a true VF6 announcement. And I hope it stays true to its roots.
I don’t think they are bad but they are definitely not for the casual player any longer. I remember playing sf2 and mk2 in the arcade, you could string together a few moves to get combos but nothing like today where you have to remember and practice 30 different inputs if you want to stand a chance, and losing constantly is not fun. I guess I’m just too old.
I've been playing Kof XV and SamSho (2019) for a long time and I still have a lot of fun with both. Kof is fast and smooth, now has 60+ characters and the 3 vs. 3 concept has always been super fun. SamSho is always exciting, tactical with mind games, as fights can turn completely around with one or two successful heavy hits.
Yeah but can't fight anyone online so...
It’s unfortunate SNK games aren’t as popular as it’s FG brethren.
I love KoF, but despite there is 60+ char, all you see in tourneys is Iori
my only complaint with SF6 is with the inputs. I think the game is designed in a fun way to randomize results a bit at a similar skill levels, sort of like playing poker. No one is going on a 4 year winning streak like Jwong did with mvc2, but that might be a good thing for the health of the game. I just dislike the distrust I have for DP, Super, FB motions. . I've been doing them since 1992, I know when something is off
I know what you mean but then again if you look at majors and offline events their seems to be no issue with execution
the problem with modern fighting games is the casualization and predatory monetization
there is barely any reason to play the same game for a long time because it's so easy to figure out modern games and play modern characters and the abusive dlc, game passes and other garbage makes playing the games a fucking chore because you feel like you are missing out on cool stuff if you don't spend time and money in it
I'd say that fighting games in general are pretty niche. The population is pretty small when you compare it to everything else in gaming. RTS and Fighting games have a pretty high skill cap and aren't very friendly to people getting into the genre. Unfortunately, there's really nothing you can do to curb this and will just have to accept this as it is.
The biggest problem is that in most games that have hubs, usually those lobbies are filled with pros so it's unlikely a new player or casual will find someone of similar skill level. Let's face it, the only time someone is really willing to put in a lot of work in a fighting game is when they're planning on going pro. I'm fairly good in fighting games, but I'm no tournament player. I have other things that I need to do (*cough* make a living *cough) than to spend countless hours in a fighting game.
New fighting games are so heavily based on system mechanics and almost every stray hit turns into a full corner carry.
I think modern games are fine.
There's a very "rose tinted glasses" view of older fighting games because we were just forced to accept them for what they were. Some people miss the fact that there were no character changes or patches and that would change how you would play the game.
People forget that there were different versions of games. The ones available in your neighborhood may not be the latest version depending on the funds of the arcade owner. And before the internet got popularized you as a player might not even know or be aware of that.
Except for games like street fighter we have applications like fightcade in which a lot of people purely stick to those games rather than seeing it through just nostalgia, myself included
Modern games are still fine. They're just needlessly simplifying stuff. That needs to stop. Make people learn how to play again.
This also applies to the amount of "content" FGs are supposed to have now. MK1 is bashed as having no content while it has WAY more than older FGs ever had (where all you would do is basically tower or fight friends/CPU). Now there's a 5h movie + multiple single player modes + practice + online and the game is "barebones". SF6 also created an entire single player thing much bigger than you ever used to have.
@@Shodan130 ...but if you like those games, you like those games warts and all.
I love 3rd strike, but I'm not going to say it's better than modern games when there are some serious balancing flaws in the game. Stable does not mean better - just because you know it best doesn't mean it's an objectively better game.
I like HnK, and have a good grasp of the system - but I would be silly to say it's better than SF6.
@@LumaTo it’s not even about that, the problem with your line of thinking is that balance is the key aspect of a games quality, when it’s not. And even if it was, did you see evo this year ? We had 6 mirror match grand finals lmao
The almost complete obliteration of the executional skill ceiling is what irritates me the most.
The thing about the SF6 patch is that the majority of the player base usually have time to learn well one character and that's it. Now you queue up ranked and I if I play 10 matches, 5 at least are Ken players because the character is well you know, I'm not gonna say it's broken but is close to that. Meanwhile new characters like Kim, Manon, Jamie and Aki have an entire new design and look really cool but we are almost punished for playing them so inferior they are to the top tier roster. In the end we want to have fun and waiting 1 year to balance the game is not only disrespectful with the money we putted in but also out of touch with online games from this era. They could have waited 6 months and I bet everyone would be fine with that, but 1 year is so bad.
Recently I introduced SF6 to a friend as a new to FGs and he asked me after watching some tourneys why people are always playing the same characters, if the others were that terrible or something. Not gonna lie, I barely watch anything now because I know top 8 will be basically the same 4 characters all over again and again.
completely agree with your comment. And KoF is worse, I love that game but watching tourneys is so boring, there is literally a 50 char roster and you only see ONE char (Iori)... SMDH
The arguments aren’t valid. A fighting game can’t be perfect but the longevity tells a lot about a fighting game. MK1 does not have longevity because it’s just play for color pallets.
Modern fighting games aren't bad, it's just we're old as fuck now and don't have the same energy as before for the grind.
Very true. If you’re young and experiencing FGs for the first time, you’re going to be excited. Older people who have played older games live them because that’s what they grew up with. Times are changing, no one wants to play a game that takes 200 hours just to be able to do an inconsistent basic combo. People want to do cool things.
@@Freeeeeeeee27 Then they should use the TRAINING mode to learn how to do cool things. If they aren't even willing to do that, fighting games aren't for them.
I think one of the most balanced fighting games I played if you want to call it balanced was and still is killer instinct. that game had so many ways to counter endless combos, loop throwing and all that and it was fun as hell to play no matter if someone had a 8 hit or even a 30 hit combo. if you knew the characters move set and the difference between a light, medium or heavy punch, kick, throw or special attack, or hyper move you can combo break them. which added a lot of strategy and mad people change up there move set and really didn't allow for spamming moves.
I remember seeing a documentary about killer instinct and the way they tackled potential balance issues. for me it's always been zoners/projectiles that been the biggest problem but I suppose when you fix one problem it causes another. MK1 is not as bad as alot of people say I've been enjoying it, but I can understand at pro level how frustrating it can be.
That's my thing I never understood about any competitive game rather it be shooting or fighting. why do 400 pro players have a bigger voice then the other 20 million people that they claim to play it. whenever a pro ups something that gives them an advantage they keep it in but if they can't adjust to something they take it out. and then they all scream get good while they exploit some bs. if I played a game all day or a couple hours a day you will be good but the problem is that the fighting game companies expect people with actual lives outside of there game to put hours into learning all there characters and when they don't they try to blame the players. SF6 has a lot of bs in it where I have watched no rank or bronze players betting diamond players spamming moves or using modern controls and all competitive games have bitch pick characters that everyone uses like jp, guile, ken, or like apex caustic, or sym in overwatch and then claim its skill win they win knowing they have bs zoning, loop, extended frame combos or whatever@@captainz-man7708
@@slimscorpio09 I hear what your saying and agree with you, unfortunately nowadays gaming companies care more about micro-transactions over the quality and balance of a game. Even pro players we'll spam the hell out of a op top tier characters just to get that win rather than using a character that they enjoy playing or have a connection to. I remember an MK11 tournemant with both players just using robocops rocket launcher move to zone for for entire set. So boring to watch. That's why I miss the 90s with the old school beat m up days. No Internet of online videos to help you, just practice and challenge your mates to get better and maybe the odd computer magazine with some helpful tips.
Killer Instinct is the best fighting game of all games they have the best characters and mechanics and Combo breaker is the best mechanic. Their combo system is so awesome. Never gets boring playing Killer Instinct. Its youtube thats ruining fighting games the 90s were golden you had to figure stuff out on your own and challenge your friends. The very first Killer Instinct is a 2.5D fighting game developed by Rare and published by Midway. It was originally released for arcades in October 1994, and ported to the Super Nintendo Entertainment System and the Game Boy the following year. I grew up as a teen playing this game it was hella fun and still hella fun to play.
yeah I did to but loved when the released for the xbox one. that's why when people try to defend the bs SF6 pulls I truly don't get it. It has nothing to do with skill and everything to do with bad mechanics of the game.@@unixjpn
for me the only thing worse about modern fighting games as opposed to the ones i grew up playing on my Genesis is the monetization. one would have hoped that we may have gotten more bang for our buck now that we don’t actually need to release a completely separate product just to have a four character roster update and some balance patches but that seems to be far from the case if recent MK and SF monetization price gouging is anything to go by.
gameplay wise while i’ve been playing fighting games since i was probably 6 or so i’ve never been anything more then a casual, so as long as i can have fun with some single player modes and some couch battles with buddies i’m fine. i actually rarely play online so i can’t speak to that stuff myself.
People like to pretend that when JP, Luke, Ken, and Dee Jay get nerfed and go down in the tier list, they're not going to cry on frame 1 about Lily, Jamie, Manon or Ryu if they get buffs good enough make them the new top tiers... And the same cycle will go on and on, in every single fighting game.
Just play the game! Get better, and have fun!
The more we see from SF6 the more balanced it feels honestly. There are like 10 characters you can argue are top 5.
i dont think getting throw looped is hard to fight but the amount of characters with oppressive jab throw game is making me pull out hair
this and DR throw, DR throw should have never been a thing
@@kupidzheartgit gud
im playin
yeah and this fucking guy was liek i dont see a problem with throw loops aer u kidding me? thats stupdi to watch stupid to do and stupid to get hit by is just a bad option in hte game
Throw loops shouldn't even be a thing. Why it's so hard for them to just add wake up throw invincibility like KoF?
zangief literally have no invisibility on wake up, not every character can do ex dp, marisa have to eat them, zangief have to eat them, alot of the low tier have to eat them@@PedroAndrade25
Solution. Play Virtua Fighter 5 Ultimate Showdown.
Problem solved 100%! 🤩👍🏼🎉
I would but it's PS4 exclusive.
@@DragoonCenten Well, well, physical PS4 games are playable on my PS5. 🤩👍🏼
Frequent patches in games kills player creativity. If something is strong and you know the game gets balanced frequently, players will just complain until a nerf happens and repeat with the next thing they don't like. When a game is just the way it is, the onus goes onto the players to find solutions to tough problems. Sometimes the imbalance is too big and a patch needs to happen or else the game dies, but SF6 is not at all at that state
Many complaints (not all) with multiplayer games in terms of balance tend to come from a competitive/high level context and fighting games are no exception to that. I think there can often be a failure to recognize that a game's existence isn't based solely on the experience of the best players and how much pressure and difficulty it is on the development team to balance around all angles. A seemingly small/specific balance change angled towards a specific part of the player base can inadvertently have a large ripple effect on the other parts of the player base whether that's lower or higher skill level players. With how mechanically stacked fighting games are these days with so many variables happening at once It's almost an impossibility to make absolutely everyone happy at once. I'm confident games particularly like SF6 will stand the test of time if Capcom plays their cards right, you sometimes don't realize how good you've got it until way later ;)
i aint readin allaattt💀
@@asheroakanor6445 You've seen the rest of the comments section right? This isn't a simple discussion, if you don't have the patience for it don't engage with it.
"You guys gotta own that sh*t and get good" Wise words from a true champion right here!
My only complaints come from 2D games in general. It's all about "footsie, zone, back up, repeat". I get how ppl will say "oh it's a strategy", but as a spectator that is so boring to watch. Gone are the days where people actually fight in games and are in your face.
I need Bloody Roar to get a revival. Konami needs to hand over the rights to make it to Namco immediately since they don't even make fighting games.
You must be new to 2D games because that's always been a thing. If you want a game that's "in your face at all times" chaotic just play DragonBall FighterZ, UMVC3 or Blazblue my guy.
But then you'll say "Nah those games are boring just touch of death combos" 🤡🤡🤡
@@Mr_Mistah The only one clowning is yourself. I own FighterZ and BlazeBlu. And if you're letting opponents get ToD on you that's your own fault.
@@MidoriDad I made an assumption about you and was wrong.
I apologize.
@@Mr_Mistah Accepted. And I apologize as well for snapping back. All's well over here.
Agreed heavily about bloody roar. I've been waiting for years..
I like Strive, I’m starting to get into MK1 and I even got down on idol showdown for 4 hours with the only other random dude online last night, so I like modern fighting games a lot. I just don’t act bitch made about the matchups or the mechanics. Maybe it’s from playing so much overwatch where the meta revolves around active counter picking so you just accept that your worst matchup is up your ass every other push and play the game
I'd say yes as they get more scummy in predatory monetization, battle passes and egregious things they ask you to pay for like fatalities, i don't see it in a healthy state, the idea of "ignoring" it doesn't work when the entire game becomes gimped by "missing out" and only getting WORSE each game
If you complain on reddit about it you get attacked for it. If they are doo keen on decending their game against all reason then I hope they are happy to have it die.
Reddit is mostly a terrible place anyway
Any differing opinion just gets shut down with no discussion
My ONLY complaint as a 42 year old veteran fighting gamer is in SF6, of you have one loss under your belt and get a double KO, you lose and earn nothing. I think double KOs should mean a draw and a draw means no one won.
Sf6, and MK1 feel limited and money hungry, tekken 8 is great tho, they have costumes and a big roster so I have no complaints there
I think part of it is people needing to take a break. Yes, Ken and JP and Luke’s shenanigans, Drive Rush, and other stuff are stupid, but sometimes you just should play other games for a while if you’re not a competitive player
Perfectly said
I dropped MOTW for Neo Geo Battle Coliseum. Unironically the best FG I've played ever
yh that's true. I also think that complaining about universal mechanics that everyone has access to is a weird thing. At the end of the day it's the same as roman cancels in GGST where some people are gods at using them which makes it feel overpowered in their hands but theoretically everyone can do it with some practice. At the core of it, it's about skill and that's just how fighting games are
People get mad that they lose. Instead of taking a break, they angrily queue up for another match. They lose again. They get even angrier. Then again, and again. So yeah, people absolutely need to take breaks or learn how to deal with defeat. Or both. Play more games, etc.
@@FieryAnubisy'all are talking in a casual way to say oh people are complaining especially when the game has modern controls and easy access moves that take absolutely no skills at all.
There’s one core issue about the FGC’s expectations that is never addressed when it comes to balance patches. We don’t need ONE big patch a year. We don’t need one single patch to rebalance the whole game, that’s not the only way to do it.
More frequent patches that touch only a few characters at a time can keep balance swings in check better, address the extreme cases, the God and Trash tiers, and little by little tweak the cast. We are used to this format because older games had whole revisions from time to time, Super, AE, Ultra etc. That’s not how every other genre does balance nowadays, and it doesn’t have to be like that for the FGC if we move on from that approach.
Other games patch just to have variety not let their meta develop. Only Ken has been consistently considered top tier. Many other characters have slid up and down without a single balance patch.
My impression is SF6 brought in a bunch of new fighting game players who are not use to the idea of needing a full year to really figure a character out before you need to nerf or buff them. Just look at Kim in beta, or all the people who wanted Honda nerfed.
That’s the great thing about SF6, it exposed the hypocrites. They said SFV was “too easy”, now they complain SF6 is “too hard”. So they bounce to another game hoping it will accommodate their BS. FGC player rinse and repeat.
Sf6 is trash. SFV all day!
@@teemobadger2037your 🗑️. Sf6 is 🤩
For me there’s nothing more frustrating than learning a character then they get nerfed and nerfs are so often you constantly have to learn new shit and if you miss a patch all of a sudden a whole meta shifted
the simple fact is that modern fighting games are designed for people who don't like fighting games.
Brilliant
Tekken 8 heat system, there have been balance changes to it from alpha to beta. Not just with tekken 8 roster, there are so many characters and so many diversity to these characters that not everyone will fight the same with them. From what I’ve seen from streamers who played the tekken 8 beta and alpha online has been good. I’m sure it’ll be be a great experience when it’s out
My issue with modern fighting games are that they took away all difficult execution in the game and now it's trivial to do the hardest most damaging combo making it trivial to optimize.
Yeah and ?
Good, there is a reason that was phased out because it got stupid and hurt sales
@@boredomkiller99 I think these people just want to sumurf or something
I thought Street Fighter 4 struck the right balance. Crisp combos and tech, but was also fun to play on a basic level. These days it feels like option selects and deep tech have been toned down.
I agree. I also believe SF4 is the best game in the series so far.
SF4 to me is the gold standard of SF. It played like 2 but somehow managed to make all the extras like Ultras and supers flow seamlessly
SF4 was like a "reboot" to the series. They stayed true to the basics with some new systems/techs splashed into it.
SF5 and SF6 feels like Capcom needs to one up themselves in making systems which are better than the next game. If they don't then players will complain how new X game plays similar to old Y game. (There are also players who won't complain)
@@ryuno2097SF2 was a radical change from SF1. SF3 was a radical change from 2. 4 was even more radical from 3. But 5 and 6 just feel like derivatives of 4, I mean they’re still using the same giant sumi-e hit sparks ffs.
@@mikeg2491 They are different because the derivatives was sold as a new game instead of a patch note bruh. Are you telling me 4 has the same shield/EX hybrid meter as 6?
I really appreciate a lot the fact that Justin Wong is such a chill, positive minded person!
Too many Twitter cry babies in the FGC.
I totally agree about the lack of Offline mattering. It's not just that they're more hype for me, but they're also easier to get people interested in the games in the first place. Someone who doesn't play isn't going to watch an online tournament, or it's a harder sell. But if they see a room of people also watching and being hype, somehow it seems like it's easier to convince them.
The games themselves aren't bad, but the mechanics made to help new players are getting more and more absurd
preach it
This is exactly the same argument Ive been having with friends. Half of us stopped playing SF6 because of the mechanics and we dropped Strive for that too. The other half love these kind of mechanics and still love SF6 and Strive
You are just a seething gatekeeper
I thought modern controls are weak asf? Haitani just got stomped for trying to prove modern chun is useable.
The fact that proyect L is going to be the peak and future of fighting games standards is insane to me. Imputs will be gone forever if it becomes too popular
Tekken 7 vs 8 from what I've seen are issues that have come up in tekken 7 but not as much which is jailing and weird moves being considered high, med, low when they don't match properly in animation or thei animation overlaps with others but does something completely different in the exact same scenario. The heat system was definitely an issue in beta 1 but they seem to be getting the hang of it better.
I'm not too experienced but this is what I've noticed and sometimes heard complaints about.
you're right about the jailing. traditionally the highs in tekken are duckable, particularly if it's a high at the end of a string, and especially if that string also has a mid ender option. it's been a pretty universal rule that if the defender can read the high, they should be rewarded for ducking it with a chance to punish. now instead you get hit for damage and frame advantage, maybe even a knockdown or launch for trying to apply that ingrained universal game knowledge
worse, this isn't a universal change but applies to a random assortment of moves across the roster, which far from punishing legacy skill only makes the game overall more knowledge check based and dependant on specific matchup knowledge, since there is no universal unspoken rule for new players to naturally pick up and apply, only the grind of learning every single string in the game just to not eat highs that in previous games you could have just learned to duck in general and been fine against
you pointed out quite correctly that these types of inconsistencies are a main complaint from players. the devs' approach to making the game more "noob-friendly" seems for a while now to have been to introduce more basic, execution light characters and more easy moves with overpowered evasion, crushing, armor, guard breaks etc. the irony is that this only complicates the game and makes it more matchup knowledge focused, making it harder to know how to deal with situations, characters and moves that you're not familiar with or know the "answer" to, especially when many such moves might appear similar to each other but require totally different answers
players coming to tekken from most other fighting games can easily tell that the real source of tekken's difficulty is not the execution but the sheer volume and variety of moves. it's much harder to pick up a character with 100+ moves than it is to pick up one with under 50, and that difficulty is multiplied by the number of other characters whose key moves one has to know how to deal with in order to have a chance. this problem could be at least partially solved by letting similar moves carry similar properties, like, say, having all df2s either crush highs or not, having all df1s track every ssr/swr or not, etc. obviously each character does have signature moves that ought to remain unique and interesting to preserve their identity, but standardizing more generic move properties across the board is a decision that honestly many of us don't understand why bamco are so hesitant to commit to. maybe they think it would make the game boring?
you're right too about heat getting less bad. there were definitely bugs and oversights with it in the cnt that got addressed in the beta, particularly concerning how meter functioned mid combo as well as some other things like damage scaling and combo reset jank. there are a few characters who still have some really oppressive heat cheese, but those are more specific balancing issues that will doubtless be dealt with down the line, and I hope not any more harshly than needed
@@zyklqrswx Fighting games will unavoidably evolves into a knowledge check sooner or later unless you want to cut back the roster as hard as MK1/1st release Strive. That's the only way to keep the game "fresh" without devolving into more Leroy DLCs
If you dont like a game, dont play it! Theres no obligation to play, especially if youre not having fun. Even if sf6 could make some changes, the sheer amount of games to choose from today is awesome!
I'm not deep in the twitter lore of fighting games. Nice to get an update every now and then. Thanks Justin
Is there really a group calling for the banning of JP??? 🤣 🤣 🤣 Can't wait to see how Akuma drops...
My thing is, there are so many games out there with so many wild and crazy mechanics and no one will ever universally agree on a good one. 3rd strike is heralded as the best game in the series by a lot of people and you have a high level player like Daigo going "meh I don't really like the parry mechanic"
If you play a game long enough, you're GOING to find things to complain about, and most of it will probably be mechanic based or character based. Hell I wouldn't doubt that we have people that clocked in my hours of sf6, then the goddamn play testers did. Enjoy the damn game for what it is and watch the evolution of how far it'll go from season 1
respectfully, three-quarters of what you're talking about are niche eSports competitor takes about the CPT and what not, but that stuff doesn't affect 99% of us. most players are being drawn in or pushed away by roster composition, post launch content support, presentation, and DLC pricing. no way my guy made a 20 minute video about issues with modern fighting games and didn't utter a word about launch roster sizes, Season Pass composition, or the pricing of microtransactions. 💀💀
Its a great pleasure when Justin talk about these important topics
Yeah I feel like Justin should do some kind of weekly round-up, just talking about the popular topics in the fgc of that particular week. Obviously there is Triple KO, but getting his thoughts out there early on his own channel is good business too. I mean Max did too it why can't he. No better time than now with all of the recent and future releases.
@@IsaacSperrowI’d rather get my news from knowledgeable Justin than casual Max.
@@sheyadkins6524 Lets not throw shade at positive FGC members. Max, Justin and Matt M have a podcast together.
@@sheyadkins6524 Ehh different perspectives and target audiences help everybody ultimately. The amount of people hearing Max bitch about the shitty price situation means more overall to the fgc compared to hearing it from the top fighting game pros. Same thing like people rather hear Lythero and Co complains about DBFZ not having rollback than they do all of the top pros combined. Its just reality.
I am a KoF and Tekken player through and through. But I still love Soul Calibur for how deep it is for veterans AND how accessible it was for beginners.
There's just too many safe moves than can be exploited, especially when some characters don't have a way to reliably fight back.
Too many safe moves? Plus frames are so hard to find in this game
Drive rush doesn't eat inputs. The games training mode shows you exactly why your DR doesn't come out, the cancel window is small.
They should replace drive reversals with what V-Shift was from SF5. Also throw loops should come at the cost of a drive rush.
Something considered bad existing from way before sf6 doesnt make it less bad (if it actually is)
Mario games kept their points system till the first 3d games (and was present even in both Mario Makers)
The issue is, the point system doesnt add anything of value on modern, console Mario games.
Nintendo eventually took em out, which could ve considered an evolution of something bad that just kept coming back
One thing I noticed in Smash Bros. Melee and Marvel vs. Capcom 2 is that there's about 5 characters that rise to the top. The God tier is focused on for both of those games. And I theorize a lot of more intense fighting games are like that also.
Games where a select few characters dominate the roster are just poorly balanced. Under no circumstance is it a sign of a good game. If it was, Super Smash Brothers Brawl would be the best fighting game of all time, seeing as Meta Knight is literally the only tournament viable character in that game.
@@CaptainDCap That's different from what I'm saying... I'm saying FIVE characters. Around that number. Your example has ONE character dominating and there's no competition for him.
The reason why I think 5 is a magic number is because when you think about it, there's probably an ideal of each archetype. An ideal rushdown, an ideal zoner, an ideal shoto, an ideal turtle, so on. It makes sense because the other characters of the same archetype are relegated by the existing ideal characters.
EDIT: Also, you should know that Melee and MvC2 are considered 2 of the best fighting games of all time.
Every fighting game is like that. Players are forever going to fine the best ways to win, which includes finding the best characters. No amount of patching is going to change that, especially at higher levels.
Smash isn't a fighting game
@@mhead1117what do you do in smash? Why is it apart of the fgc? What makes a fighting game?
I can't even PLAY a Nether Realm fighter. I can't tell when to input my next attack by the animations (there is no clean break), I just feel like I'm flailing.
I played Justice League Task Force for a year cause that's all I got for Christmas.
It was absolute dog water.
Modern gamers have no right to complain. We got it made
Damn, I remember renting that from Blockbuster back in the day, sheesh
Just played that with my friend last weekend to show him pain.
Those hit boxes and lack of block and hit stun be wild
@@boredomkiller99 lol my condolences
One of the biggest problems with reddit and/or current forum media is that these complains get louder but have no more substance than before.
"Nerf this because annoys me or buff that because I want to win more" always existed but no one listened because it was someone shouting at a wall.
That's fair to say the balance has been like this previously where you have to wait a year. But my counter to that it is... that's the past. The same way we've moved into "Live Service" instead of selling a new version of the game should mean we move forward with other things too. I don't think it really works that way for anything else either. If so, that would mean we should strip away accessibility options because "it's always been that way until now".
I am impressed by anyone that still can open SF6, queue for ranked and feel enticed to grind for hours... After taking multiple characters into Master I cant stand to look at this game no more, all matches just feel the same. Drive Rush, Parry and DI feel super stale for me now.
Dont get me wrong, the game is fantastic, clocked hundreds of hours and it flew by, but now I am hoping for a meta shakedown and looking forward for new characters
For some reason all of them seem to be going in the same direction of faster & simpler games. I can't recall the last time I had a game go to time in SF6 or Strive. In fact Strive is an insult to what GG was about, really. Ultimately, these games can't hold my attention for more than 2 months.
Games are allowed to change. Strive wanted to try something different and it was very successful for ArcSys. A reimagining isn't an insult to the series, especially when so much love was put into it.
@@spencerl.9859 it is
@@ratedr7845 I mean, if you want to play the exact same game for the next 20 years +R and Xrd are there with rollback so go nuts.
I agree. Strive is absolute trash.
@@spencerl.9859yes, because how dare we not want gutted mess
Modern fighting games are under the hugest microscope ever. People have too much time and play way too much of it. Couple that with how overly critical everyone gets about anything and everything and it's a recipe for disaster. MK, and Street Fighter are at their best currently
lmao that ending was perfect, you gotta hold that shit and get good. But I truly do understand where he was coming from with The King of Fighters, it is such an amazing game that really never had a chance to get of the ground unfortunately. I hope that it gets revisited because that game deserves so much love for shatter my expectations.
Combos ruined fighting games. The stupid chaining together of combos broke fighting games. Do you know how amazing Marvel vs Capcom was supposed to be?! Combos make it unplayable
No throw loops in KOF15. I'm not sure how KOF15 hasn't overtaken the FGC. It's a far superior game to anything Capcom has pumped out in the last decade.
Because they botched the match making after launch and the meta becoming one touch death combos is lame.
I wanted it to succeed too but they really fumbled the post launch support. They should have gotten more cross over characters like Haohmaru and ran with the CvS2 vibes.
@Choom7
I1 have no issues with matchmaking and TODs are only possible with anchors with full resources, and even then, not many characters have them.
It's not like BFTG where the first character can TOD the whole team
Weird take on throw loops: I don’t care wether they’re strong or weak, it’s fun either way. What makes them frustrating is the length of the throw. SF throws are fast and snappy so it keeps the flow of the match going; MK throws can be fast but feel like they’re usually 5 seconds long and kinda ruin pacing in my opinion
mk throws are way too long
If you hate throws don’t play sf2 or 3s
@@taylorbee4010 Dude, did you even read what he wrote?
Agree they should be fast!
@@taylorbee4010"They are fun" The hatred in his words
I love these discussion vids! And I'd also like to see you try out KOFXV's matchmaking as it is now. So far, I've got no complaints about it! But I think it'd mean a lot more after YOU showcase it. Then maybe a Netcode stress test. Play against players all around the world and see how the network holds up. 'Course, that's if it sounds fun to you. Time zones might make things difficult.
I'll buy KOF now because of this vid and your post, need a new challenge 💪
I wouldn't say modern fighting games are bad. More like they made bad decisions that hurt the games, whether it being balance issues, poor online rollback netcode, cutting out certain characters, or in some cases, drastically changing a character to make him or her worse, expensive amount of DLC, overpricing a barebone game at launch, and the worst offender, an insanely sluggish loot-boxed unlock system. So, really, modern fighting games don't suck its just that the developers behind those AAA fighting games make bad decisions that ruin their games for some people.
Sf6 is great. Monetization not so much. I should be rewarded for playing the game. Doing anything should reward a small amount of coins and it should be able to unlock anything if i put in the work. If not, the base game should be free to play. I get tired of the constant whiny instant gratification crowd, but im used to it in the FGC. "Old game good, new game bad" never changes
I think they are bad… or rather not what I want in a fighting game, the 90’s era of games are simple, you could take any fg player play ST with them and in about 15 minutes they will get it. Same with tekken if you look at tag 1 to T8. The only games really boasting complexity was the anime games. But now it’s the entire genre
The director of VF commented on it recently saying that there is a trend among FG’s at the moment where they add in a bunch of mechanics to make it complex and then try to force in comeback mechanics or similar to try compensate, FG’s used to be simple relatively speaking. And we kinda lost that
But honestly that’s fine, complex games are better suited for the big stage, personally I just want the games I like to have rollback and then it’s all sweet, and for the most part we do… unless you are a tekken player lol. They just gotta hold that
Also balance is over rated IMO, I’d prefer a fun meta to a super balanced game
I think they're great for the most part. MK is way better that the old ones. Street fighter Alpha 3 is still my fav. I think MVC got worse as they went on lol. All and all I like em and hope they keep making more. The big one I want someone to make is a Marvel fighting game...or a Marvel vs DC!
Lol mk is garbage. As one of the best UMK3 players ever, that game is so fucking ass now.
Ironically Mvc1 is my favourite of the series
Guilty gear doesnt have throw loops because strike beats throw. You can always mash and beat throw, this makes throwing someone and extremely confident thing to do. In sf6 you have throws which beat strike, plus you can anti air the jump , so your only option realistically is backdash and even gief cant do that and punish since his backdash is trash.
Guilty Gear doesn't have universal parry and it have different playing style than SF where ArcSys wants the players to keeps attacking and comboing and much less neutral and footsies play because they gave you superior mobility both ground and air that can skip neutral. So throw loop isn't make sense in GG but make sense in SF.
And there's more option outside backdash to defend from throw loops. You need to learn fuzzy tech like delay throw tech, delay jab, etc. I reccomend to watch Sajam Fuzzy Tech video or Diaphone 'How to use Option Select for beginner to advanced'. Both are great videos and they also played Guilty Gear.
Sounds sad, but is true. And note limiting to fighting games. In general, the entire industry of videogames is worse. There are no videogame done like the old times, and is a bit sad...
There are plenty of games done like the old times, but more in the indie game scene.
HiFi Rush is a breath of fresh air tho
Agree
Personally I agree with Justin with SF6.
The game is balanced for 99.99% of the playerbase, the only minor issue is seeing the same characters in top top level tournaments.
But besides that, I would not want monthly or bimonthly patches. I would just drop the game, I don't want to have to relearn stuff so often. Right now I feel comfort on stop playing for a week or two, get back and see the stuff I already learned still working.
My only problem with street fighter 6 is the pricing of the costumes
Crazy part about all this. I mentioned part of this in one of james videos. In his comment section i was told that the "get gud" approach was basically unnecessary. I gave up at that point because its like people are trying to eliminate the fun (actually learning matchups) parts of the game instead just going to the lab.
I love all fighting games but man, a lot of the whining takes it outta me and makes me not want to even bother with some of these games sometimes.
Great take king
They're not bad but I still feel myself having a lot more fun with the older games. Not sure why I just freaking love Marvel Vs Capcom 2, X-men vs Sf, Alpha 2 and 3, 3rd strike, Super Street Fighter 2 Turbo. Mk1-3 and Trilogy, og Killer Instinct, Capcom vs Snk2 ect ect. I've even gotten into playing older fighters I didn't play when I was younger like the Darkstalkers games more than the new fighters I've bought. I just love replaying them. I think also maybe with new games people may be focusing too much on the competitive side of it and just not having fun. Is having prize pools for fighting games and huge events cool? Yea for sure but I think a lot of us back in the day would just play fighting games for fun and try to find people to play the games with locally FOR FUN. Fun against people at an arcade or your school friends or your cousins/relatives on home consoles. I get the feeling that most young kids today are not going to each others houses to play Street Fighter 6 or any of the new games. Playing Ranked online is not the same as playing against some friends at home or at an arcade. With friends that are normies its fun to learn together vs going online today and playing against randos who just pummel you into the ground in Ranked lol. It's not the same! Unless your a competitive player actively going to and searching for events most people probably do not get to experience the pleasure of playing against others in real life anymore. In a way it's kind of amazing that the fighting game is even still around. Even though we have fighting games on home consoles and computers to play against others online , the experience of playing against someone side by side in person is a critical component to the genre at least in my opinion. I don't think the new games are bad. We just live in strange times man.
I think playing offline is only fun if you really know eachother well
Playing with randoms irl is even worse than playing randos online
justin doesn't get "this is how things have always been done" isn't actually a suitable defense of anything.
Max Dood actually had a video about fighting game balance recently and it's absolutely worth a watch. I don't think modern fighting games are bad so much as I think having balance is incredibly difficult no matter what kind of fighting game you're making. I don't believe that a game will ever be completely and perfectly balanced.
You would need to make every character the exact same.
Bro, there's nothing about Max Dood that is worth watching. He's shill who vomits out, like, ten videos per day and they come down to repeating every (non-opiniated) sentence at least up to three times, for duration, I guess. He speaks a lot without saying anything, repeating phrases like "oh, wow", "this is crazy", "this game is insane" and shit that are now meaningless colloquialisms on YT. I understand that many of YTubers got into fighting games thanks to him, but it's time to remove nostalgia glasses and face the times. It's channels like his that are responsible for shutting up constructive criticism and now we have these uninspired, politically correct characters whose gameplay boils down to math behind frame data, endless learning of matchups and zero fun and appeal. Max and pick-pocket shill channels alike also constantly defend dlc and microtransaction practices, convincing the weak-minded that it is okay to spend their (parents) hard earned money on the half-assed product which they endorse. If nothing else, Max should be dealt with asap.
@@VileGlory This is true only in part. VF5US has very unique characters, but it's considered to be fairly balanced. The trick is to homogenize the strongest system mechanics so that individual kits don't matter as much.
Using SF6 as an example, DR is a mechanic that is strong and is available to everyone, but it is unevenly applied to each character. It makes balancing the game difficult.
Divekick is balanced lol
4:15 i honestly dont understand this mentality, "it's always been like this" is not an excuse or a real argument to why they can't improve on frustrating or undesirable aspects of the game, like it's just insane to me, like when parents beat up they children because their parents did that to them when they were kids
For the corner game its a huge 50:50 with variables on how to react them. A lot of games end up finding solid BnB even in other genres, but 1v1 makes it feel that much more personal. Abigail on release was knocking people silly foe 50 50s until people learned how to rock paper scissors with all options & balance came from people working on counter fundamentals
Personally, I think devs becoming too involved with the completive scene is hurting fighting games. Also, characters are becoming a little too flow charty and homogenized.