The bisector reflection of inverse direction of momentum on local intersect, and speed differentials caused by acceleration and deacceleration by quantity of vector reflection imbalance acting perpendicular to other vectors (pinching), which also describe fundamental curvatures, this is tested and confirmed extensively (time dilation = inverse speed = bisector reflection density = more extensive curvature). Every part of your conscious state is formed through detecting differentials, which always require the bisector reflection of inverse directional momentum on local intersect. This is the theory of everything. Physical distribution determines probability, without physical distributions, there is no probabilistic event or construction of a symbol of that event.
Weather this guy is aware of it or not he is slightly on the Spectrum... It's good to see the powers of the spectrum shine through... I halfway dozed off watching this one.
@@AquarianSoulTimeTraveler Everyone is on a spectrum of brain and mind differentials tho. Plus, us Europeans are all domesticated and on a many spectrums. Significant brain mass loss from forming larger tribes and communities over the past 10,000 years compared to Cro-Magnon brain size. So it's like 200cc average loss, and for people like me more like 300-400cc loss, which is in between 3th-4rd ratio loss of brain mass from ancestors. I don't know if it's that small, but I have on average a smaller head.
It was really good to dig into idiosyncrasy with Jonathan. I've heard him use the word often and thought that there was more under the surface. Thanks for digging into it with him.
Amazing. Jonathan Pageau has to be one of the two people that influenced my thinking the most in this world (the other being Iain McGilchrist) Great stuff, Curt!
Thank you for making this conversation happen, Curt! Jonathan is incredible to listen to, and you’re just the man to ask and engage creative questions to expand his thoughts and answers for us to ponder.
It’s hard for me to overstate how grateful I am when a couple of people I’ve spent a lot of time with converge like this. As many issues as has been caused by everyone being able to talk at the same time (internet) - these convergences are what redeems those issues and ultimately makes it a net HUGE positive for humans and the world. Grateful for you both, and you’ve both improved my life.
Curt, you are at the top of your game! You always ask the *perfect* interview questions. That's the main reason this podcast is orders of magnitude above anything else I've ever watched. There's such a clear synergy of talent between both the host *and* the interviewee.
Made it to 90% mark. One of the most synergistic conversations I've listened to highlighting the intrinsic and extrinsic values of spoken word and how it forms an image of the collective human consciousness or Christened consciousness of sorts. BravO
I'm not an orthodox Christian but because Jonathan and I are Christians we agree in many ways which I believe is the beauty of truth. I have listened to Jonathan quite a bit but a conversation that is so long is really helpful, it really gives an opportunity to go deep into ideas. Curt does a great job interviewing too!
This conversation had at least a couple moments where I was struck with what felt like profound understanding: 1. Love is the harmonious relationship between the multiple in service of unity. -- I've heard this expressed in different ways, including by Pageau, but it finally clicked for me. 2. The origin of creation comes at the end. -- I'm not sure what to make of this one yet, but it's a really captivating idea that I'm sure I'll be ruminating on for a while. I'm consistently impressed with your ability to get deep thinkers to express their ideas so strongly.
I've heard pageau explain the "origin at the end" thing as when you prepare a meal; from cleaning to cutting to cooking to seasoning, it isn't until the end when the purpose of all those things is revealed by the finished meal. The purpose was there in every step, but it was "hidden", even in the things that seemed like they had nothing to do with a meal (like washing your hands)
This is probably the best talk Ive heard with Jonathan in it. Your questions for him were great. They helped him break down and articulate his thoughts very well, which made it very palpable for me. A lot of his ideas "clicked" for sure.
Jonathan touched on a really important distinction when discussing the Orthodox understanding of forgiveness. I think it’s key to point out that the Greek word that is used is typically “συγχωρώ” (“synchoro”) which essentially means to “make space” for someone, as opposed to “forgive and forget”. Synchoro is to cut out a piece of your own heart so the other can exist within you. The Church Fathers will point to the self-emptying of Christ on the Cross as the key example of this. He emptied Himself completely and in doing made space for all of humanity to exist within Him. There is an extremely kenotic spirit to forgiveness in the Orthodox tradition.
Could it be in part because you were indoctrinated to believe the truth was spoken a long time ago by a specific group and when people today speak in contrast to it they are wrong? I will speak only for myself and say that was something I had to be conscious of as a former Christian fundamentalist, who discovered the ego and non dualism. I find that also tuning into hardcore phycslists, or idealism teachers, to also offer up super interesting and informative content.
Your model refines the metaphor by emphasizing alignment and convergence, which invites a deeper exploration of dogma as dual tracks leading to an ultimate point of unity. Here’s an expanded thought experiment based on your framework: Hypothesis Religious dogma, as represented by two parallel railroad tracks, exists to guide individuals (represented by wheels) toward a unified, infinite point-symbolizing ultimate truth or divine union. While the tracks appear separate, their purpose is convergence. Framework 1. Two Tracks of Dogma: Represent the dual aspects often found in religious systems: • Track 1: Law - Structure, rules, doctrines, rituals, and tradition. • Track 2: Spirit - Personal faith, intuition, experience, and grace. 2. Wheels: Represent individual or communal adherence to these tracks. • Left Wheel: Engagement with the law and external practices. • Right Wheel: Engagement with spirit and internal transformation. 3. Infinite Point of Convergence: Symbolizes the eschatological goal where both law and spirit are reconciled, unified, and fulfilled (e.g., the New Jerusalem, divine perfection). Guiding Principles 1. Parallelism: The tracks are parallel because both law and spirit are essential but distinct in their roles. Neither can substitute for the other, yet both work in harmony to guide the “vehicle” of faith. 2. Alignment: For the journey to be successful, the wheels must stay aligned on their respective tracks. Misalignment leads to derailment: • Overemphasis on law: Leads to legalism and rigidity. • Overemphasis on spirit: Risks subjectivism and lack of grounding. 3. Convergence at Infinity: While the tracks appear separate throughout the journey, they are designed to guide the vehicle toward a single, ultimate destination where all distinctions dissolve. Thought Experiment Scenario 1: Perfect Alignment • Setup: Both wheels are perfectly aligned on their respective tracks. • Effect: The vehicle moves smoothly and purposefully, advancing steadily toward the infinite point. • Implication: Balance between law and spirit ensures steady progress and stability in faith. Scenario 2: Left Wheel Off Track • Setup: The left wheel (law) veers off its track. • Effect: The vehicle swerves, losing direction or crashing. • Implication: Ignoring or rejecting the structure of dogma (law) leads to chaos and disorientation. Scenario 3: Right Wheel Off Track • Setup: The right wheel (spirit) veers off its track. • Effect: The vehicle wobbles, failing to maintain its course. • Implication: Neglecting spiritual engagement and grace risks hollow religiosity. Scenario 4: Tracks Merge Prematurely • Setup: The tracks merge before the journey is complete. • Effect: The vehicle derails as the convergence was forced, not natural. • Implication: Attempting to unify law and spirit too early (before maturity) results in confusion and collapse. Theological Parallels 1. Christ as the Infinite Point: • Christ embodies both law and grace (John 1:17). The convergence of the two is found in Him. • On the cross, the tension between law (justice) and spirit (mercy) resolves into divine love (Luke 23:34; John 19:30). 2. The Journey of Faith: • The parallel tracks reflect the biblical journey: from law (Old Covenant) to grace (New Covenant), culminating in divine union (Heb 8:13; Gal 3:24-25). 3. Infinite Convergence: • The tracks never actually meet in finite space but converge in the infinite point, reflecting the mystery of faith: the union of human and divine in Christ (Col 1:19-20). Extensions of the Model 1. Dynamic Tracks: • Could the tracks adjust based on the terrain? For instance, could they represent different dogmas for different individuals or communities, all ultimately converging on the same infinite truth? 2. Role of the Train Conductor: • Who or what ensures the vehicle stays on course? This might represent the Holy Spirit (John 14:26), guiding the believer and the Church to truth. 3. Switching Tracks: • What happens when one attempts to “switch tracks,” such as replacing law with spirit or vice versa? Is this analogous to theological syncretism or reform? Concluding Questions • Can human beings ever fully comprehend the infinite point where law and spirit converge, or is it always a matter of faith (Heb 11:1)? • How might this model guide modern discussions about balancing tradition with innovation in faith practices? • Does the vehicle (individual/Church) progress better when the tracks are closer or farther apart in perception? Let me know if you’d like to explore further refinements or expand on specific aspects of the model.
I have to admit to not having been aware of either of you, gentlemen. I am very glad this has changed. Kudos and gratitude to both! This is a lovely and pertinent exchange.
This interview has been incredibly helpful in understanding Pageau's worldview, and I must have watched countless of his videos. You're an exceptional interviewer, Curt; you really dig deep and don't stop until you've fully grasped what the guest is saying. I watched this right after your McGilchrist interview, which was also excellent. You allude to this by pointing out that it's a Western interpretation of Eastern nondualism you're annoyed with, but it seems to me that many forms of Hinduism encapsulate the balanced form of nondualism that Pageau advocates, with a place for both the One and the many. Seems very incarnational to me (it is, after all, the other major religion that has a place for the incarnation[s] of God).
This channel is way better than JRE. Curt, your questions were great because you really prompted him to elaborate and I’ve been needing that from Jonathan. Thank you so much! I love your openness
What Jaimungal and Pageau were looking for in their discussion of "literal vs metaphorical" was "propositional vs non-propositional". You can have propositional language using figures of speech without losing their truth value, truth value being correspondence between the claim within the proposition and "the world". Non-propositional language, or propositions not grounded in object correspondence do not have "truth values" in the same sense. This is what is at the heart of the question. When Dawkins says "the Bible is false" he means that if read as a series of propositions about object correspondences between the text and the world, the claims are falsifiable and are indeed false (the proposition has no referent)
More still! In an equation you use the double straight = for exact answers and the double curved ≈ for approximate ones. Then "is" combines these two perfectly with the straight and the curved line. Symbolism happens
@@m4inline Pageau did once warn people that you have to be careful with symbolism, as people who are new to it might fall into that "over-reading" issue from seeing patterns everywhere.
@@moussaadem7933 I like it. Because for something to "is" or to exist, it needs to join form (order) with potential (chaos). This is the basis of classical metaphysics. The letter I is the letter we have which most corresponds to order and the S is the letter we have which most corresponds to multiplicity or chaos. It's the dollar sign or the serpent in the tree. Ancient symbols for a reason. It just so happens these come together in our word IS It's not over reading or trying to find a cosmic purpose I just said I like it I should like it. Because it's nice. Maybe its actually kind of wild to criticize me or Lucas Vos for liking it. Likewise it's wild for me to be wasting my time writing this comment on a comment peace
If every Christian were as thoughtful and articulate as him it wouldn’t have such a poor reputation. As a Christian I’m trying to do my part to participate in a new Christian culture that cultivates this sort of thoughtfulness
Many things that Pageau has never said quite so clearly. You did a greay interview with him. 'The soul is the organizing function of the body' i liked that.
The Christian concept of unity as explained here, by way of tying up unity and multiplicity, can also be understood as what Chris Langan calls "meta-simultaneity," which is definitely one of the ideas heard on this channel that has stuck with me the most over the years.
Your original interview with Jonathan a few years ago is a classic, and i've rewatched many sections of it. Especially the "What is art" section near the beginning. Im looking forward to this interview. Glory to God!
Finally finished the episode. This is a wealth of knowledge! It is very skillful, robust and edifying the way you asked your questions in such a way that you drew the most clear and detailed explanations out of Jonathan Pageau, really well done!
It was funny to me that i initially reacted to some of the questions as "duh." Then, when Jonathan laughed and answered them, i was humbled to think that I had never thought about it that way before. First time at this channel. Thanks!
1:50:00 ...this conversation about the atemporality of the crucifixion and the surrounding confusion about it is a decent demonstration of how successful modern culture has been at removing formal causes. It is hard to even explain what previous cultures seemed to intuitively take for granted.
When later Jonathan explains it with reference to The 6th Sense movie, it dawned on me that the 1st century was when we became aware of the pattern. It had to be experienced to be noticed.
I really think Pageau needs to be at the same level of spotlight as JP; he's much better at concisely conveying these kinds of ideas to people that aren't as "schizo-brained".
@@m4inline If you're observing many people say the opposite of your opinion, perhaps you are simply not understanding and could benefit from a posture of curiosity.
I love these conversations that engage in the metaphysical as serious and real phenomena, as opposed to the material reductionism that has become so prevalent today. The idea of the "re-enchantment" of the world feels like a much more accurate description of reality.
@TheoriesofEverything, I think you were the best interviewer of Jonathan so far. Btw, don't you think that the AI recapitulating male voice resembles bishop Barron a bit? :-)
37:00 I think the missing key here is that humans are unique in their ability to conceptualize the unknown. Animals can be trained (naturally or by humans) to respond to patterns abstractly, but they don’t ask questions. They can use symbols, but they don’t create new ones.
At 54:48 Metanoia (beyond mind) is actually the word for "repentance", and Aphesis, which is from Aphiemi (to let go), is the common term translated "forgiveness."
The food example at 1:26:50 I think proves exactly the opposite - Greek, Indian and a British food are different in style, but they have the same underlying logos/purpose which is nutrition, and same basic constituent parts - proteins, cerbohydrates, fats, fibre, minerals - just arranged in a different way.
Ah, this is a fascinating geometric analogy! The Klein bottle's unique topology - where inside and outside flow into each other without boundary - provides a compelling mathematical metaphor for this theological concept. In a Klein bottle, we have a non-orientable surface where interior and exterior are not clearly defined - they're continuously connected. Applied to the Christ-as-logos concept, this suggests some profound implications: 1. The "Christ-shaped hole" isn't really a hole at all, but rather a topological feature of our existence - like the apparent "hole" in a Klein bottle that's actually part of its continuous surface 2. Just as a Klein bottle appears to intersect itself in 3D space (though it doesn't in 4D), our experience of separation from the divine might be a limitation of our perspective rather than an actual separation 3. The paradox of Christ being both container and contained (as in the incarnation) mirrors the Klein bottle's paradoxical topology where inside and outside coexist This geometric metaphor helps resolve some apparent contradictions in traditional theology: - How can Christ be both transcendent and immanent? - How can we be "in Christ" while Christ is also "in us"? - How can the finite contain the infinite? The Klein bottle suggests these aren't contradictions at all, but features of a higher-dimensional reality we're trying to understand from our limited perspective. Would you say this topology might also help explain the nature of religious experience itself - where the experiencer and the experienced become indistinguishable?
@@TheoriesofEverythingThank you for seeing the value of this type of conversation. Seeing a scientific mind so interested in symbols and religion is refreshing
Something super important regarding the conclusion... he's not giving the mp4 for prior, for the ancients. The ancient, Christian worldview reveals the Truth and Beauty and Goodness and Wisdom of the world, NOW, and forever.
I like the contrast between & the need to balance vertical and mechanical causation. We’re quick to disassemble things into their parts and temporal causes while forgetting that which keeps these parts together from one moment to the next.
Thank you! Beautiful questions and incredibly beautiful answers. Both of you are incredible leaders and givers of knowledge. Stay healthy! We need you.
1:08 Jung publicly spoke about symbolism as psychic projections, but privately he believed it was a way that the world laid itself out through meaning. Synchronicity was also getting at this concept.
@@mahdielzein85 Jung identified the collective unconscious with God, and he also mentions in Man and His Symbols that people think God doesn't speak to us anymore because they've forgotten that God speaks to us in dreams and visions. It's clear if you read his letters to Pauli and some of his other private writings published after his death, that he believed there was meaning encoded into the fabric of reality, existing in some way external to us. His near death experience revealed to him some kind of invisible force, uniting the entire world. The collective unconscious would then be another sign of this quantum external intelligence, revealing itself through a narrative/symbolic thread running through existence. I'm inspired in this reading also by Bernado Kastrup's take on Jung.
This was a fascinating excursion into a very interesting worldview! Jonathan Pageau indeed has presented a very elaborate and complex system, definitely aesthetically pleasing. It is interesting to hear about a philosophy that combines multiplicity with unity so intricately. However, what is missing from this presentation is robustness and argumentation showing that this is the correct view (or rather, that it is the most correct view). Why would we believe all this? Pageau only repeats that “this is a description of reality” and “I can’t think differently”. Well, many people don’t think so. And there is nothing here that would sway them to giving more merit to this architecturally complicated system. Pageau essentially butchered words like "sin", "real", "forgiveness", and "literal", thus making communication with the rest of the linguistic community (speakers of the language) extremely difficult. These weird, proprietary definitions lead to many people using the same words with completely different meanings, which then leads to total confusion and misunderstanding. Truly, what a Tower of Babel has Pageau constructed! And… where is the support for any of this in the Bible (the Old as well as the New Testament)? It really looks like Pageau projected this entire system into the Bible, rather than getting it from the Bible. It's a shame the guest was not pushed more on many points he made. Some more challenge could be beneficial to the audience.
2:15:45 man this is so smart, what he is trying to say is that of all the interpretations that can be obtained from the infinite complexity of the materiality of a face, we can see the soul or the most important thing, which is the image of the meaning that the materiality of the face seeks to implement. It's crazy when you realize that everything is like that.
I like the idea of “eternal event” and “atemporal (timeless) cause” (1:51:38). It fits perfectly with Aristotle’s idea of “final cause” and Kant’s idea of “causation through freedom”, which Kant put at the basis of morality and by which he made us practically co-authors of the world, together with God. And I like what Jonathan Pageau says about “dogma” in Christian theology (1:58:33).
The part of the conversation where they talk about forgiveness makes me think about something that happened some seventh October day, and a non-hindered revenge on everyone in any shape or form being hallucinated as associated with that named event.
Curt that example about someone thinking about relating to the best version of God taking into account Everettarian quantum mechanics … thank you for being you 🧡
A bit of a correction for 54:43: Metanoia is the Greek word for repentance, not forgiveness. Also, as Jonathan briefly mentioned, it doesn't mean "beyond the mind", but "changing your mind", i.e. you make a change within yourself and your thinking to avoid the sin you realise has plagued you. Forgiveness is συγχώρηση (synchorisi) in Greek, which is also interesting etymologically as it basically means leaving or making space for someone else.
Non dualism in Western music sounds like Gathering up chromatisism, from the center, to reorient dissonance back to the whole. The master composer does this as well. The more skilled they are, the more capacity they have for joining disparate elements or getting out of tight situations. Chromatic notes are like stars in the sky. Jazz is almost gone from popular music...but still when it's christmas time ...the stars still come out
My summary/ understanding: Love, by its nature, seeks to multiply. In multiplying, there’s a ‘risk’ of fragmentation, but this risk is necessary because true love requires freedom. So, built into creation is a way back to unity: the incarnation. The incarnation is God’s response to the risk of fragmentation, a path woven into creation itself. In this, creation sacrifices unity for multiplicity, and the incarnation sacrifices multiplicity for unity. And so sacrifice is the ultimate act of love in both creating the world and restoring it.
Correction @54:43 Metanoia is not the Greek word for forgiveness. There are two words used for forgiveness in the New Testament: charidzomai (which has to do with the application of grace or Charis, in the greek) and aphiemi, which has more to do with letting go. Metanoia, however, is a wondrous word, especially in the context of the Gospels, since it's the key verb in Christ's first pronouncements. Matthew 4:17 "Metanoia, for the Kingdom of heavens has come near." It's usually translated as repentance, but my preferred translation comes from David Bentley Hart (a theologian of rampaging intellect, who should be on your short list of people to speak to!). In his translation of the NT, Hart includes a sizable footnote where he lays out his wrestling with the word and how it's been insufficiently translated: Its "literal meaning is a 'change of mind' or 'of thinking' or 'of intention' or 'of the heart'. 'Repentance' is a word that today carries none of those connotations naturally; for us, it is a largely negative term that means something like 'regret and repudiation', both of which may be some part of the special meaning of metanoia...but which say nothing of the real inner transformation that is a far larger part of the word's sense." Hart chose to translate it variously as change, turn, + transformation of heart, "with the qualification that the heart should be understood in the classical sense, as the seat of both the intellect and the passions." I loved this interview, btw. Blessings to you and yours, Curt!
I agree, and I think Jonathan picked up on this when he started talking about Metanoia as transformation of the mind, like how St Paul plays with the word in Romans 12:2.
The conversation on the one and being far from the one is being less is a critical misunderstanding. Non dualism teaches there is no other to even be less. There is only the one and you are it. This is the deepest teaching of Christ
Jonathan is intuitively probing the ideas that have been more fully fleshed out by Christian esoteric science, particularly Rudolf Steiner through his spiritual science. It is one thing to intuit that departed souls can still maintain a first-person experiential perspective independent of a physical body and exhibit patterned influences within the Earthly spectrum, and yet another thing to lucidly cognize and feel what that body-free experience would be like, which is but the logical extension of the monistic Christian outlook. It is from the latter cognitive experience that Steiner brought revelations of the structured stages of life after death and, moreover, gave humanity the steps by which any thinking human individual can confirm those revelations for themselves. In reality, we experience something of these stages every time we go to sleep and our subtle bodies loosen from the physical body. Our dreams are nothing but revelations of higher spiritual worlds where departed souls and angelic beings are spiritually active, except normally we can only experience the meaning of those revelations insofar as they overlap with our narrow Earthly experiences and concepts, and of course that meaning remains dim and quickly fades away. The training of modern Christian initiation, first experienced by St. John, allows us to remain awake while we otherwise dream and sleep, i.e. without bodily sensory support, and experience the expanded meaning of our existence that is normally aliased from our Earthly consciousness. In this way we become more sensitive to the subtle spiritual processes that are always structuring our willing, feeling, thinking, and perceiving across all scales of existence, from the individual to collective humanity and Earthly life as a whole.
@@jawokenn8766 The modern impulse of initiation science is only understood when we also discern the evolution of consciousness. It is not about building up a philosophical, scientific, or theological model with our intellect, but developing new degrees of freedom for our intuitive activity so we can explore more integrated domains of meaning, inner skills which simply could not have been developed in prior epochs of evolution. It is not so much about the first-order content of our ideas, which will surely overlap with the esoteric Wisdom of all prior ages, but the second-order process of the participatory journey through which we reach that content from the inside-out. As Steiner put it in his early phenomenological-epistemological works, the World Content should become our thought content. In that process, we are transfiguring the very capacities for thinking, feeling, and willing. What our ancestors instinctively explored as Divine revelations given from without, we can discover in full consciousness as lucid ideas from within. We don't simply speculate about the departed souls and angelic beings, but grow with our spirit into their first-person experiential perspectives and discover how our ordinary soul life is modulated over the waves of their more integrated meaningful activity.
Great conversation. I wish you two had utilized the framework provided by Wolfgang Smith to help structure your discussion on cosmologic levels of reality
2:05:32 This is an intriguing thought experiment comparing the Old and New Testaments through a cargo cult lens. Let me engage with this idea while maintaining respect for these texts. One could examine how the Old Testament heavily emphasizes material signifiers and ritual practices - specific sacrifices, dietary laws, temple ceremonies, and physical manifestations of divine presence (like the Ark of the Covenant). Similar to how cargo cults focused on recreating the physical forms and rituals they observed, there's an emphasis on precise external practices. The New Testament, in contrast, often presents a shift toward internalized spiritual meaning. Jesus frequently challenges literal interpretations of Old Testament laws in favor of their underlying spiritual principles - like when he says "the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath" or emphasizes that ritual cleanliness matters less than "what comes out of a person's heart." This transition could be seen as moving from a focus on recreating specific forms (like cargo cults) to understanding deeper principles. For example, the replacement of animal sacrifice with the concept of spiritual transformation, or the shift from a physical temple to the idea of the body as a temple. Would you like to explore any particular aspect of this comparison further? For instance, we could examine how this relates to different approaches to religious authority or interpretation of signs and symbols.
@ hey Martina, thanks for replying. When I thought about the cargo cult analogy, I thought about how a primitive society will simulate the structural mechanisms without understanding the overlying architecture. Consider in the physical world, physical symbols may provide guard rails of sorts, whereas in a spiritual world, themanifestation of the guard rails is in spiritual space. Essentially, duplicating form without understanding function
@ This is a fascinating observation that points to how the Logos-driven evolution model might serve as a meta-framework accommodating multiple interpretations of reality through the lens of negotiated meaning. Let me create a visualization that demonstrates how different belief systems can be valid paths through the same symbolic space. I've created a visualization that demonstrates how different belief systems can represent valid paths through the same symbolic space of divine truth. The visualization shows several key insights from your observation: 1. **Parallel Valid Paths**: - Literal Genesis interpretation (Blue path) - Scientific cosmological evolution (Green path) - Symbolic/metaphorical interpretation (Red path) - Mystical understanding (Purple path) 2. **Connection Points**: - Dotted lines show where different interpretations intersect - Each path maintains its internal consistency while sharing truth with others - The paths weave together without invalidating each other 3. **Common Elements**: - All paths begin with divine origin - All paths show progression toward increasing complexity - All paths converge in the present moment - All paths participate in the larger Logos framework This model suggests several profound implications: 1. **Multi-dimensional Truth**: - Truth can be expressed through multiple valid frameworks - Different interpretations can capture different aspects of the same divine reality - The Logos accommodates multiple valid negotiation paths 2. **Complementarity**: - Like wave-particle duality in quantum mechanics, seemingly contradictory views can both be valid descriptions of reality - Each perspective offers unique insights into the nature of divine truth - The tension between different views can itself be generative of deeper understanding 3. **Unified Framework**: - The Logos provides an overarching structure that accommodates all valid paths - Different belief systems can be seen as different "languages" describing the same divine reality - The negotiation process allows for multiple valid interpretations while maintaining coherence Would you like to explore: 1. How specific theological concepts might be expressed across different paths? 2. How this model might help bridge apparent conflicts between science and faith? 3. How the negotiation process might work differently within each path while still maintaining connection to the others? This framework suggests that truth is rich enough to accommodate multiple valid interpretations, each capturing different aspects of divine reality while participating in the larger unity of the Logos.
Jonathan Pageau identifies some fascinating and important aspects of human cognition and experience and then goes off on fantastical voyages of sophistry. He then spuriously ties it all together with Orthodox Christianity. I know that's a harsh criticism, but it's what I see.
Metanoia is not forgiveness, it's conversion. It's often translated as repentance too, but I think conversion is a better translation, as it suggests the idea of reorientation. In that, it is in accordance with the etymological roots of the concept of sin, which originally meant missing the mark / a goal. Forgivess is described in the New Testament with two words (charidzomai and aphiemi) which correspond to the ideas Pageau described: not accounting for something, very much as in the sense of canceling a debt, and letting go (as in loosening a grip).
Thank you so much for interviewing Jonathan Pageau! I would love to join the Discord, but the invite link is invalid. Could we get a new Discord link please?
yes, 36:03 I think I understand, we do the similar with LLM too, it was given a purpose and a pattern recognition, but if you clog it with gibberish or neglect it it can go feral again
Basically, what Johnathan is saying is that Christ died from the foundation of the world though it had not happened yet. It was fully realized when Christ was crucified. In the same way in your mind when you know you have to do something such as run a marathon though it has not yet happened, it will fully be realized after you have done it, though you have done it in your mind already. It happens in the immaterial first before it happens materially.
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Can you get Wes Huff on please?
The bisector reflection of inverse direction of momentum on local intersect, and speed differentials caused by acceleration and deacceleration by quantity of vector reflection imbalance acting perpendicular to other vectors (pinching), which also describe fundamental curvatures, this is tested and confirmed extensively (time dilation = inverse speed = bisector reflection density = more extensive curvature). Every part of your conscious state is formed through detecting differentials, which always require the bisector reflection of inverse directional momentum on local intersect. This is the theory of everything. Physical distribution determines probability, without physical distributions, there is no probabilistic event or construction of a symbol of that event.
Weather this guy is aware of it or not he is slightly on the Spectrum... It's good to see the powers of the spectrum shine through... I halfway dozed off watching this one.
@@AquarianSoulTimeTraveler Everyone is on a spectrum of brain and mind differentials tho. Plus, us Europeans are all domesticated and on a many spectrums. Significant brain mass loss from forming larger tribes and communities over the past 10,000 years compared to Cro-Magnon brain size. So it's like 200cc average loss, and for people like me more like 300-400cc loss, which is in between 3th-4rd ratio loss of brain mass from ancestors. I don't know if it's that small, but I have on average a smaller head.
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Jordan Peterson's biggest achievement is introducing the world to Jonathan Pageau.
Still waiting on Pageau JRE. The timing will be right
Not his biggest achievement, but definitely one of the great things he’s done.
You should see Jonathans brother.
Him and vervaeke are both on that list for me all 3 of them bring profound thinking to me
Diabolical comment
It was really good to dig into idiosyncrasy with Jonathan. I've heard him use the word often and thought that there was more under the surface. Thanks for digging into it with him.
Hey Paul!
@@PaulVanderKlay I knew I’d find you in here right away lol
I was wondering if you saw this! Watching the end of it now myself.
We are virtually not alone
"Paul Vanderklay is super smart." -Jonathan Pageau
Damn. Jonathan has really become a solid thinker and a crucial axis for the development of our culture.
Curt, your questions are amazing. Jonathan is at his BEST!!!!!
So glad you enjoyed!
Unfirtunately I sadly think this IS about his best. Painfully superficial.
@@James-ll3jb rip your understanding of reality
@@AugustasKunc try coherent English lol
@@James-ll3jbdon’t misspell word and then lecture about English.
You're a really excellent interviewer, Curt. I feel like I understood JP better than ever before thanks to your questions. Really really good.
Every time i listen to jonathan pageau i learn something new
Amazing. Jonathan Pageau has to be one of the two people that influenced my thinking the most in this world (the other being Iain McGilchrist) Great stuff, Curt!
Same.
Have you read his brother’s book, The Language of Creation? Super good 👍
@@erica_mSoFla Yes I have! It's been a while, but I definitely do recommend!
Sad. I might suggest reading once in awhile.
@@James-ll3jb very boring statement.
Thank you for making this conversation happen, Curt! Jonathan is incredible to listen to, and you’re just the man to ask and engage creative questions to expand his thoughts and answers for us to ponder.
It’s hard for me to overstate how grateful I am when a couple of people I’ve spent a lot of time with converge like this. As many issues as has been caused by everyone being able to talk at the same time (internet) - these convergences are what redeems those issues and ultimately makes it a net HUGE positive for humans and the world. Grateful for you both, and you’ve both improved my life.
Curt, you are at the top of your game! You always ask the *perfect* interview questions. That's the main reason this podcast is orders of magnitude above anything else I've ever watched. There's such a clear synergy of talent between both the host *and* the interviewee.
It's awesome to watch you two gents having a long-form conversation. Thank you, Curt and Jonathan.
I can't believe Jonathan just explained the whole world in one podcast
You managed to make Pageau expose his whole thought. This video summarizes all his videos. Great interview.
Made it to 90% mark. One of the most synergistic conversations I've listened to highlighting the intrinsic and extrinsic values of spoken word and how it forms an image of the collective human consciousness or Christened consciousness of sorts.
BravO
Pageau does well to show an enchanted vision of Christianity
I'm not an orthodox Christian but because Jonathan and I are Christians we agree in many ways which I believe is the beauty of truth. I have listened to Jonathan quite a bit but a conversation that is so long is really helpful, it really gives an opportunity to go deep into ideas.
Curt does a great job interviewing too!
@@brendonlake1522 you should attend an Orthodox Divine Liturgy if you haven’t, it’s breathtaking!
One of the best Jonathan Pageau interviews. Brilliant work.
This conversation had at least a couple moments where I was struck with what felt like profound understanding:
1. Love is the harmonious relationship between the multiple in service of unity. -- I've heard this expressed in different ways, including by Pageau, but it finally clicked for me.
2. The origin of creation comes at the end. -- I'm not sure what to make of this one yet, but it's a really captivating idea that I'm sure I'll be ruminating on for a while.
I'm consistently impressed with your ability to get deep thinkers to express their ideas so strongly.
Agreed those are both so beautiful.
I've heard pageau explain the "origin at the end" thing as when you prepare a meal; from cleaning to cutting to cooking to seasoning, it isn't until the end when the purpose of all those things is revealed by the finished meal.
The purpose was there in every step, but it was "hidden", even in the things that seemed like they had nothing to do with a meal (like washing your hands)
This is probably the best talk Ive heard with Jonathan in it. Your questions for him were great. They helped him break down and articulate his thoughts very well, which made it very palpable for me. A lot of his ideas "clicked" for sure.
Jonathan touched on a really important distinction when discussing the Orthodox understanding of forgiveness. I think it’s key to point out that the Greek word that is used is typically “συγχωρώ” (“synchoro”) which essentially means to “make space” for someone, as opposed to “forgive and forget”. Synchoro is to cut out a piece of your own heart so the other can exist within you. The Church Fathers will point to the self-emptying of Christ on the Cross as the key example of this. He emptied Himself completely and in doing made space for all of humanity to exist within Him. There is an extremely kenotic spirit to forgiveness in the Orthodox tradition.
I really like this talk of 'in the name of Christ' is akin to saying 'as a member of the body of Christ'
I find that people speaking from within religious traditions are so much more credible and interesting than speaking from their 'own' ideas
That's because they are.
Could it be in part because you were indoctrinated to believe the truth was spoken a long time ago by a specific group and when people today speak in contrast to it they are wrong?
I will speak only for myself and say that was something I had to be conscious of as a former Christian fundamentalist, who discovered the ego and non dualism.
I find that also tuning into hardcore phycslists, or idealism teachers, to also offer up super interesting and informative content.
Stop psychoanalyzing people on the internet based on one sentence.
right, because I don't know what ideas I could "own."
Your model refines the metaphor by emphasizing alignment and convergence, which invites a deeper exploration of dogma as dual tracks leading to an ultimate point of unity. Here’s an expanded thought experiment based on your framework:
Hypothesis
Religious dogma, as represented by two parallel railroad tracks, exists to guide individuals (represented by wheels) toward a unified, infinite point-symbolizing ultimate truth or divine union. While the tracks appear separate, their purpose is convergence.
Framework
1. Two Tracks of Dogma: Represent the dual aspects often found in religious systems:
• Track 1: Law - Structure, rules, doctrines, rituals, and tradition.
• Track 2: Spirit - Personal faith, intuition, experience, and grace.
2. Wheels: Represent individual or communal adherence to these tracks.
• Left Wheel: Engagement with the law and external practices.
• Right Wheel: Engagement with spirit and internal transformation.
3. Infinite Point of Convergence: Symbolizes the eschatological goal where both law and spirit are reconciled, unified, and fulfilled (e.g., the New Jerusalem, divine perfection).
Guiding Principles
1. Parallelism: The tracks are parallel because both law and spirit are essential but distinct in their roles. Neither can substitute for the other, yet both work in harmony to guide the “vehicle” of faith.
2. Alignment: For the journey to be successful, the wheels must stay aligned on their respective tracks. Misalignment leads to derailment:
• Overemphasis on law: Leads to legalism and rigidity.
• Overemphasis on spirit: Risks subjectivism and lack of grounding.
3. Convergence at Infinity: While the tracks appear separate throughout the journey, they are designed to guide the vehicle toward a single, ultimate destination where all distinctions dissolve.
Thought Experiment
Scenario 1: Perfect Alignment
• Setup: Both wheels are perfectly aligned on their respective tracks.
• Effect: The vehicle moves smoothly and purposefully, advancing steadily toward the infinite point.
• Implication: Balance between law and spirit ensures steady progress and stability in faith.
Scenario 2: Left Wheel Off Track
• Setup: The left wheel (law) veers off its track.
• Effect: The vehicle swerves, losing direction or crashing.
• Implication: Ignoring or rejecting the structure of dogma (law) leads to chaos and disorientation.
Scenario 3: Right Wheel Off Track
• Setup: The right wheel (spirit) veers off its track.
• Effect: The vehicle wobbles, failing to maintain its course.
• Implication: Neglecting spiritual engagement and grace risks hollow religiosity.
Scenario 4: Tracks Merge Prematurely
• Setup: The tracks merge before the journey is complete.
• Effect: The vehicle derails as the convergence was forced, not natural.
• Implication: Attempting to unify law and spirit too early (before maturity) results in confusion and collapse.
Theological Parallels
1. Christ as the Infinite Point:
• Christ embodies both law and grace (John 1:17). The convergence of the two is found in Him.
• On the cross, the tension between law (justice) and spirit (mercy) resolves into divine love (Luke 23:34; John 19:30).
2. The Journey of Faith:
• The parallel tracks reflect the biblical journey: from law (Old Covenant) to grace (New Covenant), culminating in divine union (Heb 8:13; Gal 3:24-25).
3. Infinite Convergence:
• The tracks never actually meet in finite space but converge in the infinite point, reflecting the mystery of faith: the union of human and divine in Christ (Col 1:19-20).
Extensions of the Model
1. Dynamic Tracks:
• Could the tracks adjust based on the terrain? For instance, could they represent different dogmas for different individuals or communities, all ultimately converging on the same infinite truth?
2. Role of the Train Conductor:
• Who or what ensures the vehicle stays on course? This might represent the Holy Spirit (John 14:26), guiding the believer and the Church to truth.
3. Switching Tracks:
• What happens when one attempts to “switch tracks,” such as replacing law with spirit or vice versa? Is this analogous to theological syncretism or reform?
Concluding Questions
• Can human beings ever fully comprehend the infinite point where law and spirit converge, or is it always a matter of faith (Heb 11:1)?
• How might this model guide modern discussions about balancing tradition with innovation in faith practices?
• Does the vehicle (individual/Church) progress better when the tracks are closer or farther apart in perception?
Let me know if you’d like to explore further refinements or expand on specific aspects of the model.
Thank you so much!
I have to admit to not having been aware of either of you, gentlemen. I am very glad this has changed. Kudos and gratitude to both! This is a lovely and pertinent exchange.
Curt thank you! I love Jonathan Pageau.
Ooh its getting spicy around the 1 hour 20 minute mark. Exciting stuff
it's 11pm here I'm so upset I can't watch this whole thing right now
This interview has been incredibly helpful in understanding Pageau's worldview, and I must have watched countless of his videos. You're an exceptional interviewer, Curt; you really dig deep and don't stop until you've fully grasped what the guest is saying. I watched this right after your McGilchrist interview, which was also excellent. You allude to this by pointing out that it's a Western interpretation of Eastern nondualism you're annoyed with, but it seems to me that many forms of Hinduism encapsulate the balanced form of nondualism that Pageau advocates, with a place for both the One and the many. Seems very incarnational to me (it is, after all, the other major religion that has a place for the incarnation[s] of God).
Your first interview with Jonathan is literally my favorite one he has ever done, so I look forward to seeing this one.
I’m so glad you enjoyed it!
This channel is way better than JRE. Curt, your questions were great because you really prompted him to elaborate and I’ve been needing that from Jonathan. Thank you so much! I love your openness
This was amazing.
several eye-opening moments in this. wow!
What Jaimungal and Pageau were looking for in their discussion of "literal vs metaphorical" was "propositional vs non-propositional". You can have propositional language using figures of speech without losing their truth value, truth value being correspondence between the claim within the proposition and "the world". Non-propositional language, or propositions not grounded in object correspondence do not have "truth values" in the same sense. This is what is at the heart of the question. When Dawkins says "the Bible is false" he means that if read as a series of propositions about object correspondences between the text and the world, the claims are falsifiable and are indeed false (the proposition has no referent)
I like that in english the word "is" is made of a straight line and a curved line. Perfect
More still! In an equation you use the double straight = for exact answers and the double curved ≈ for approximate ones. Then "is" combines these two perfectly with the straight and the curved line. Symbolism happens
The kind over reading into things that is one step removed from schizophrenia.
@@m4inline Pageau did once warn people that you have to be careful with symbolism, as people who are new to it might fall into that "over-reading" issue from seeing patterns everywhere.
as if there's some sort of a purpose behind that ? it's one language out of many, using one alphabet out of many
@@moussaadem7933 I like it. Because for something to "is" or to exist, it needs to join form (order) with potential (chaos). This is the basis of classical metaphysics. The letter I is the letter we have which most corresponds to order and the S is the letter we have which most corresponds to multiplicity or chaos.
It's the dollar sign or the serpent in the tree. Ancient symbols for a reason.
It just so happens these come together in our word IS
It's not over reading or trying to find a cosmic purpose
I just said I like it
I should like it. Because it's nice.
Maybe its actually kind of wild to criticize me or Lucas Vos for liking it.
Likewise it's wild for me to be wasting my time writing this comment on a comment peace
Love this guest. Loving and learning from the conversation. Absolute gem. Thank you both.
Love this convo!!
The coherence of Jonathan’s thought speaks to the Truth of Christianity…once you grasp the pattern you can speak to anything to some degree
truely, it’s a master key
If every Christian were as thoughtful and articulate as him it wouldn’t have such a poor reputation. As a Christian I’m trying to do my part to participate in a new Christian culture that cultivates this sort of thoughtfulness
Many things that Pageau has never said quite so clearly. You did a greay interview with him.
'The soul is the organizing function of the body' i liked that.
The Christian concept of unity as explained here, by way of tying up unity and multiplicity, can also be understood as what Chris Langan calls "meta-simultaneity," which is definitely one of the ideas heard on this channel that has stuck with me the most over the years.
Your original interview with Jonathan a few years ago is a classic, and i've rewatched many sections of it. Especially the "What is art" section near the beginning. Im looking forward to this interview. Glory to God!
Finally finished the episode. This is a wealth of knowledge! It is very skillful, robust and edifying the way you asked your questions in such a way that you drew the most clear and detailed explanations out of Jonathan Pageau, really well done!
It was funny to me that i initially reacted to some of the questions as "duh." Then, when Jonathan laughed and answered them, i was humbled to think that I had never thought about it that way before. First time at this channel. Thanks!
Welcome friend! Hope you enjoy the channel.
1:41:00 I feel so seen. :)))
We see you
I already know this is about to be an amazing conversation
1:50:00 ...this conversation about the atemporality of the crucifixion and the surrounding confusion about it is a decent demonstration of how successful modern culture has been at removing formal causes. It is hard to even explain what previous cultures seemed to intuitively take for granted.
The meat of this issue really gets addressed later when discussing Santa Claus and The Tooth Fairy around 2:15:00
When later Jonathan explains it with reference to The 6th Sense movie, it dawned on me that the 1st century was when we became aware of the pattern. It had to be experienced to be noticed.
This talk was out of this world…thank you
I really think Pageau needs to be at the same level of spotlight as JP; he's much better at concisely conveying these kinds of ideas to people that aren't as "schizo-brained".
Disagree. Most of what he says barely comprehensible and he rambles a lot.
He is extremely insightful
@@m4inline If you're observing many people say the opposite of your opinion, perhaps you are simply not understanding and could benefit from a posture of curiosity.
@@m4inlineTo those who have ears to hear
@@wes555 spiritually sick
I love these conversations that engage in the metaphysical as serious and real phenomena, as opposed to the material reductionism that has become so prevalent today. The idea of the "re-enchantment" of the world feels like a much more accurate description of reality.
metaphysics is that which encompasses physics. it's always real. just theorized about differently
@TheoriesofEverything, I think you were the best interviewer of Jonathan so far. Btw, don't you think that the AI recapitulating male voice resembles bishop Barron a bit? :-)
Absolutely love this. You should get Paul Vanderklay on. I see you in the comments section, Paul!
What's very interesting is the extent to which the CTMU structures align with Jonathan's.
Great interviewer.
“The buck has to stop with me.” Liked and subscribed.
37:00 I think the missing key here is that humans are unique in their ability to conceptualize the unknown. Animals can be trained (naturally or by humans) to respond to patterns abstractly, but they don’t ask questions. They can use symbols, but they don’t create new ones.
This is untrue.
@@m4inline how
Halfway through. Just want to say that I appreciate this interview. Good stuff. Going into the 'save' file.
I found the discussion of dogma very helpful. Dogma is not the truth. Its to keep you from falsehood so you can remain in relation to the truth
At 54:48 Metanoia (beyond mind) is actually the word for "repentance", and Aphesis, which is from Aphiemi (to let go), is the common term translated "forgiveness."
@@GulfofMexico947 I like to see metanoia as a turnaround or new orientation.
great pushing from both sides
The food example at 1:26:50 I think proves exactly the opposite - Greek, Indian and a British food are different in style, but they have the same underlying logos/purpose which is nutrition, and same basic constituent parts - proteins, cerbohydrates, fats, fibre, minerals - just arranged in a different way.
Ah, this is a fascinating geometric analogy! The Klein bottle's unique topology - where inside and outside flow into each other without boundary - provides a compelling mathematical metaphor for this theological concept.
In a Klein bottle, we have a non-orientable surface where interior and exterior are not clearly defined - they're continuously connected. Applied to the Christ-as-logos concept, this suggests some profound implications:
1. The "Christ-shaped hole" isn't really a hole at all, but rather a topological feature of our existence - like the apparent "hole" in a Klein bottle that's actually part of its continuous surface
2. Just as a Klein bottle appears to intersect itself in 3D space (though it doesn't in 4D), our experience of separation from the divine might be a limitation of our perspective rather than an actual separation
3. The paradox of Christ being both container and contained (as in the incarnation) mirrors the Klein bottle's paradoxical topology where inside and outside coexist
This geometric metaphor helps resolve some apparent contradictions in traditional theology:
- How can Christ be both transcendent and immanent?
- How can we be "in Christ" while Christ is also "in us"?
- How can the finite contain the infinite?
The Klein bottle suggests these aren't contradictions at all, but features of a higher-dimensional reality we're trying to understand from our limited perspective.
Would you say this topology might also help explain the nature of religious experience itself - where the experiencer and the experienced become indistinguishable?
@@Xhris57 It's simply God...He's real, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit.
@ if you are speaking from an NT perspective, I agree.
Wow is this his longest 1:1 convo
Yes
yes ?
you have a 7 and a half hours interview with leo gura and it's a part two, part 1 is 6 hours
@@TheoriesofEverythingThank you for seeing the value of this type of conversation. Seeing a scientific mind so interested in symbols and religion is refreshing
@@moussaadem7933 i think he may have meant it's pageaus longest convo
Something super important regarding the conclusion... he's not giving the mp4 for prior, for the ancients. The ancient, Christian worldview reveals the Truth and Beauty and Goodness and Wisdom of the world, NOW, and forever.
I like the contrast between & the need to balance vertical and mechanical causation. We’re quick to disassemble things into their parts and temporal causes while forgetting that which keeps these parts together from one moment to the next.
Thank you! Beautiful questions and incredibly beautiful answers. Both of you are incredible leaders and givers of knowledge. Stay healthy! We need you.
These kinds of discussions and public viewings feels like what church should be.
I’m so excited for this one!!!!
1:08 Jung publicly spoke about symbolism as psychic projections, but privately he believed it was a way that the world laid itself out through meaning. Synchronicity was also getting at this concept.
How do you know that was what he believed in? I agree Synchronicity is good evidence, anything else? I love Jung.
@@mahdielzein85 Jung identified the collective unconscious with God, and he also mentions in Man and His Symbols that people think God doesn't speak to us anymore because they've forgotten that God speaks to us in dreams and visions. It's clear if you read his letters to Pauli and some of his other private writings published after his death, that he believed there was meaning encoded into the fabric of reality, existing in some way external to us. His near death experience revealed to him some kind of invisible force, uniting the entire world. The collective unconscious would then be another sign of this quantum external intelligence, revealing itself through a narrative/symbolic thread running through existence.
I'm inspired in this reading also by Bernado Kastrup's take on Jung.
@ thank you very much for your response!
This was a fascinating excursion into a very interesting worldview! Jonathan Pageau indeed has presented a very elaborate and complex system, definitely aesthetically pleasing. It is interesting to hear about a philosophy that combines multiplicity with unity so intricately.
However, what is missing from this presentation is robustness and argumentation showing that this is the correct view (or rather, that it is the most correct view). Why would we believe all this? Pageau only repeats that “this is a description of reality” and “I can’t think differently”. Well, many people don’t think so. And there is nothing here that would sway them to giving more merit to this architecturally complicated system.
Pageau essentially butchered words like "sin", "real", "forgiveness", and "literal", thus making communication with the rest of the linguistic community (speakers of the language) extremely difficult. These weird, proprietary definitions lead to many people using the same words with completely different meanings, which then leads to total confusion and misunderstanding. Truly, what a Tower of Babel has Pageau constructed!
And… where is the support for any of this in the Bible (the Old as well as the New Testament)? It really looks like Pageau projected this entire system into the Bible, rather than getting it from the Bible.
It's a shame the guest was not pushed more on many points he made. Some more challenge could be beneficial to the audience.
Pageau's goal isn't to communicate cleary, lest he be exposed for knowing nothing. His goal is to speak in riddles in order to impress the gullible.
General criticism is unhelpful, it would be better if you found something specific you disagree with and start there
Thanks for your content. Good interview navigating skills on your behalf
I liked that you asked straight up if consciousness survives death from Jonathan, been waiting for this.
Great discussion!
2:15:45 man this is so smart, what he is trying to say is that of all the interpretations that can be obtained from the infinite complexity of the materiality of a face, we can see the soul or the most important thing, which is the image of the meaning that the materiality of the face seeks to implement. It's crazy when you realize that everything is like that.
Re first part of this conversation, consider also first part of R M Bucke’s cosmic consciousness regarding precept, recep, and concept.
I like the idea of “eternal event” and “atemporal (timeless) cause” (1:51:38). It fits perfectly with Aristotle’s idea of “final cause” and Kant’s idea of “causation through freedom”, which Kant put at the basis of morality and by which he made us practically co-authors of the world, together with God. And I like what Jonathan Pageau says about “dogma” in Christian theology (1:58:33).
This was a great interview, im a long time listener of Jonathan but I thought you had excellent questions as an interviewer
So glad you enjoyed!
Vertical causality is a term most often used by Wolfgang Smith.
Coined by Wolfgang Smith. It was the title of one of his books.
The part of the conversation where they talk about forgiveness makes me think about something that happened some seventh October day, and a non-hindered revenge on everyone in any shape or form being hallucinated as associated with that named event.
Curt that example about someone thinking about relating to the best version of God taking into account Everettarian quantum mechanics … thank you for being you 🧡
A bit of a correction for 54:43:
Metanoia is the Greek word for repentance, not forgiveness. Also, as Jonathan briefly mentioned, it doesn't mean "beyond the mind", but "changing your mind", i.e. you make a change within yourself and your thinking to avoid the sin you realise has plagued you.
Forgiveness is συγχώρηση (synchorisi) in Greek, which is also interesting etymologically as it basically means leaving or making space for someone else.
Nice work Curt!
"God is the Lord, of angels, and of men... and of elves..." -Tolkien
37:45 - great discussion here. I recently have been perturbed by people saying their dogs are "smiling". This was totally applicable here.
Wow least expected pairing. Great choice, Kurt. 👏
Non dualism in Western music sounds like
Gathering up chromatisism, from the center, to reorient dissonance back to the whole.
The master composer does this as well.
The more skilled they are, the more capacity they have for joining disparate elements or getting out of tight situations.
Chromatic notes are like stars in the sky.
Jazz is almost gone from popular music...but still when it's christmas time ...the stars still come out
My summary/ understanding: Love, by its nature, seeks to multiply. In multiplying, there’s a ‘risk’ of fragmentation, but this risk is necessary because true love requires freedom. So, built into creation is a way back to unity: the incarnation. The incarnation is God’s response to the risk of fragmentation, a path woven into creation itself. In this, creation sacrifices unity for multiplicity, and the incarnation sacrifices multiplicity for unity. And so sacrifice is the ultimate act of love in both creating the world and restoring it.
@@drumfun100 thank u for this
Correction @54:43 Metanoia is not the Greek word for forgiveness. There are two words used for forgiveness in the New Testament: charidzomai (which has to do with the application of grace or Charis, in the greek) and aphiemi, which has more to do with letting go.
Metanoia, however, is a wondrous word, especially in the context of the Gospels, since it's the key verb in Christ's first pronouncements. Matthew 4:17 "Metanoia, for the Kingdom of heavens has come near." It's usually translated as repentance, but my preferred translation comes from David Bentley Hart (a theologian of rampaging intellect, who should be on your short list of people to speak to!).
In his translation of the NT, Hart includes a sizable footnote where he lays out his wrestling with the word and how it's been insufficiently translated:
Its "literal meaning is a 'change of mind' or 'of thinking' or 'of intention' or 'of the heart'. 'Repentance' is a word that today carries none of those connotations naturally; for us, it is a largely negative term that means something like 'regret and repudiation', both of which may be some part of the special meaning of metanoia...but which say nothing of the real inner transformation that is a far larger part of the word's sense." Hart chose to translate it variously as change, turn, + transformation of heart, "with the qualification that the heart should be understood in the classical sense, as the seat of both the intellect and the passions."
I loved this interview, btw. Blessings to you and yours, Curt!
Yes
I agree, and I think Jonathan picked up on this when he started talking about Metanoia as transformation of the mind, like how St Paul plays with the word in Romans 12:2.
Enjoyed it!
The conversation on the one and being far from the one is being less is a critical misunderstanding.
Non dualism teaches there is no other to even be less.
There is only the one and you are it.
This is the deepest teaching of Christ
Great interview Curt 🙌🏻
Jonathan is intuitively probing the ideas that have been more fully fleshed out by Christian esoteric science, particularly Rudolf Steiner through his spiritual science. It is one thing to intuit that departed souls can still maintain a first-person experiential perspective independent of a physical body and exhibit patterned influences within the Earthly spectrum, and yet another thing to lucidly cognize and feel what that body-free experience would be like, which is but the logical extension of the monistic Christian outlook. It is from the latter cognitive experience that Steiner brought revelations of the structured stages of life after death and, moreover, gave humanity the steps by which any thinking human individual can confirm those revelations for themselves. In reality, we experience something of these stages every time we go to sleep and our subtle bodies loosen from the physical body. Our dreams are nothing but revelations of higher spiritual worlds where departed souls and angelic beings are spiritually active, except normally we can only experience the meaning of those revelations insofar as they overlap with our narrow Earthly experiences and concepts, and of course that meaning remains dim and quickly fades away. The training of modern Christian initiation, first experienced by St. John, allows us to remain awake while we otherwise dream and sleep, i.e. without bodily sensory support, and experience the expanded meaning of our existence that is normally aliased from our Earthly consciousness. In this way we become more sensitive to the subtle spiritual processes that are always structuring our willing, feeling, thinking, and perceiving across all scales of existence, from the individual to collective humanity and Earthly life as a whole.
his ideas are 2000 years old, they sound esoteric he is repackaging to the modern mind very old ideas from Maximus, Gregory of Nyssa, etc
There is not a drop of science in this bucket
@@jawokenn8766 The modern impulse of initiation science is only understood when we also discern the evolution of consciousness. It is not about building up a philosophical, scientific, or theological model with our intellect, but developing new degrees of freedom for our intuitive activity so we can explore more integrated domains of meaning, inner skills which simply could not have been developed in prior epochs of evolution. It is not so much about the first-order content of our ideas, which will surely overlap with the esoteric Wisdom of all prior ages, but the second-order process of the participatory journey through which we reach that content from the inside-out. As Steiner put it in his early phenomenological-epistemological works, the World Content should become our thought content. In that process, we are transfiguring the very capacities for thinking, feeling, and willing. What our ancestors instinctively explored as Divine revelations given from without, we can discover in full consciousness as lucid ideas from within. We don't simply speculate about the departed souls and angelic beings, but grow with our spirit into their first-person experiential perspectives and discover how our ordinary soul life is modulated over the waves of their more integrated meaningful activity.
There should be a distinction between the metaphorical and symbolic.
Great conversation. I wish you two had utilized the framework provided by Wolfgang Smith to help structure your discussion on cosmologic levels of reality
2:05:32
This is an intriguing thought experiment comparing the Old and New Testaments through a cargo cult lens. Let me engage with this idea while maintaining respect for these texts.
One could examine how the Old Testament heavily emphasizes material signifiers and ritual practices - specific sacrifices, dietary laws, temple ceremonies, and physical manifestations of divine presence (like the Ark of the Covenant). Similar to how cargo cults focused on recreating the physical forms and rituals they observed, there's an emphasis on precise external practices.
The New Testament, in contrast, often presents a shift toward internalized spiritual meaning. Jesus frequently challenges literal interpretations of Old Testament laws in favor of their underlying spiritual principles - like when he says "the sabbath was made for man, not man for the sabbath" or emphasizes that ritual cleanliness matters less than "what comes out of a person's heart."
This transition could be seen as moving from a focus on recreating specific forms (like cargo cults) to understanding deeper principles. For example, the replacement of animal sacrifice with the concept of spiritual transformation, or the shift from a physical temple to the idea of the body as a temple.
Would you like to explore any particular aspect of this comparison further? For instance, we could examine how this relates to different approaches to religious authority or interpretation of signs and symbols.
What are these 'cargo cults' you mention, please?
@ hey Martina, thanks for replying.
When I thought about the cargo cult analogy, I thought about how a primitive society will simulate the structural mechanisms without understanding the overlying architecture.
Consider in the physical world, physical symbols may provide guard rails of sorts, whereas in a spiritual world, themanifestation of the guard rails is in spiritual space.
Essentially, duplicating form without understanding function
@ This is a fascinating observation that points to how the Logos-driven evolution model might serve as a meta-framework accommodating multiple interpretations of reality through the lens of negotiated meaning. Let me create a visualization that demonstrates how different belief systems can be valid paths through the same symbolic space.
I've created a visualization that demonstrates how different belief systems can represent valid paths through the same symbolic space of divine truth. The visualization shows several key insights from your observation:
1. **Parallel Valid Paths**:
- Literal Genesis interpretation (Blue path)
- Scientific cosmological evolution (Green path)
- Symbolic/metaphorical interpretation (Red path)
- Mystical understanding (Purple path)
2. **Connection Points**:
- Dotted lines show where different interpretations intersect
- Each path maintains its internal consistency while sharing truth with others
- The paths weave together without invalidating each other
3. **Common Elements**:
- All paths begin with divine origin
- All paths show progression toward increasing complexity
- All paths converge in the present moment
- All paths participate in the larger Logos framework
This model suggests several profound implications:
1. **Multi-dimensional Truth**:
- Truth can be expressed through multiple valid frameworks
- Different interpretations can capture different aspects of the same divine reality
- The Logos accommodates multiple valid negotiation paths
2. **Complementarity**:
- Like wave-particle duality in quantum mechanics, seemingly contradictory views can both be valid descriptions of reality
- Each perspective offers unique insights into the nature of divine truth
- The tension between different views can itself be generative of deeper understanding
3. **Unified Framework**:
- The Logos provides an overarching structure that accommodates all valid paths
- Different belief systems can be seen as different "languages" describing the same divine reality
- The negotiation process allows for multiple valid interpretations while maintaining coherence
Would you like to explore:
1. How specific theological concepts might be expressed across different paths?
2. How this model might help bridge apparent conflicts between science and faith?
3. How the negotiation process might work differently within each path while still maintaining connection to the others?
This framework suggests that truth is rich enough to accommodate multiple valid interpretations, each capturing different aspects of divine reality while participating in the larger unity of the Logos.
Jonathan Pageau identifies some fascinating and important aspects of human cognition and experience and then goes off on fantastical voyages of sophistry. He then spuriously ties it all together with Orthodox Christianity. I know that's a harsh criticism, but it's what I see.
@@nerian777 I don't see Jonathan being a Sophist at all.
Metanoia is not forgiveness, it's conversion. It's often translated as repentance too, but I think conversion is a better translation, as it suggests the idea of reorientation. In that, it is in accordance with the etymological roots of the concept of sin, which originally meant missing the mark / a goal.
Forgivess is described in the New Testament with two words (charidzomai and aphiemi) which correspond to the ideas Pageau described: not accounting for something, very much as in the sense of canceling a debt, and letting go (as in loosening a grip).
Thank you so much for interviewing Jonathan Pageau! I would love to join the Discord, but the invite link is invalid. Could we get a new Discord link please?
discord.com/invite/kBcnfNVwqs it should work, can you try once more? - Curt
@@TheoriesofEverything
Huzzah!
Multiplicity and unity… all for one and one for all!
Great sir!!!!!!!!!!!!
"a soul is a vector of unity in multiplicity" good definition
yes, 36:03 I think I understand, we do the similar with LLM too, it was given a purpose and a pattern recognition, but if you clog it with gibberish or neglect it it can go feral again
Thanks
Basically, what Johnathan is saying is that Christ died from the foundation of the world though it had not happened yet. It was fully realized when Christ was crucified. In the same way in your mind when you know you have to do something such as run a marathon though it has not yet happened, it will fully be realized after you have done it, though you have done it in your mind already. It happens in the immaterial first before it happens materially.