I can only add the speaker's words of praise. My husband and I (aged 91 and 92) have been watching and listening to you for nearly two years and feel as all your followers do have a profound new about way of seeing things , and a new sense of peace ,inspite of the state of society and climate. No other Podcast has the positive effect you do Iain.
"Sometimes when we argue, A grain of truth is sown. If we humbly nurture it, We'll bring a harvest home. Thru respect and listening, We finally agree And form a stronger partnership Than one found easily. "We Need Each Other; My way may not do. We were meant to complement And help each other thru. As we grow together, We'll come to understand We need each other, So let me take your hand. --From my song "We Need Each Other." (c) 2000, Dan Eumurian.
Such an eloquent and enlightening conversation between the 3 of you! This was my 3rd listening of Iain's and i so appreciate what he shared on his innermost feelings of sacred and Devine!
We may at some point, the sooner the better, reach the end of the materialistic Darwinian perspective. A higher age perspective was fourteen versions of the human to a uniquely human prototype in a universal cycle. If Darwinism is ditched as speculative, maybe we can reach the heights again and have an above the waist culture in music, art, etc. rather than the below the waist culture we have now.
Trump is like a Pumpkin. Orange on the outside, empty on the inside, and you throw it out in November. How many MAGA Republicans does it take to change a light bulb? None - Trump just tells them he fixed it and they sit there in the dark and applaud. "I cannot tell a lie" - George Washington "I cannot tell the truth" - Donald Trump "I cannot tell the difference" - MAGA GOP are born followers following a born loser who was given 400 million dollars free and filed bankruptcy six times and on top of that he has convinced his cult followers that he was smart for filing bankruptcy that many times. Ever read 1984? The GOP fall in line and perfectly fit this description.
As a high school English teacher, this video has me musing on three related dichotomies in whose dissolution our education system languishes. First is that we see the world through the lens of non-fiction and story without seeing the world and all of creation as a poem. Good poetry recreates internal states of mind and heart from the poet in the mind and heart of the reader. Existence is not merely a story, a series of successive events; it is a poem, communicating materially an immaterial mind. More than that, its material gives its “readers” a shared language of sensation by which they communicate their own immaterial selves sensibly to each other for the sake of deep love relationship with each other and with God. Relatedly, our education system is future-oriented, and therefore views all goods as instrumental to purposes which are, definitionally, thrust out of the present. There is little regard for the discipline of poetry which fixes the eyes to see goodness in and into the present. In The Screwtape Letters, Lewis put it this way, “the Future is, of all things, the thing least like eternity. It is the most completely temporal part of time-for the Past is frozen and no longer flows, and the Present is all lit up with eternal rays…Gratitude looks to the past and love to the present.” When we train ourselves to see present goods as contingent upon their relation to the future, those future goods cease to be good when they become present, and thus gladness escapes us ad infinitum. Finally, and again, relatedly, our system of education focuses myopically on analysis, the means of knowing things through taking apart. If the only mode of thinking one has is to disintegrate wholes, one ends up concluding that existence is “full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.” Meaning is found through synthesis, not through analysis. In our systems of education, synthesis, the thinking which gathers back the pieces which analysis found into an understanding of relationship, has been abandoned, because it is, in the social imaginary, not a reliable means of knowing. Or not even a means of knowing at all.
@@jakemaxwell5989 I see a lot of this in how the church presents scripture as well. Particularly how we communicate to students, we give them the “take away” but don’t invite them into the story or display for them the poetry of scripture. Thank you for talking the time to share this! 🙏
This is such a profound comment that I couldn't agree more with. Always loved the idea of the universe as a poem. In a Christianized context it is the "Word" that brings everything into existence. Here's to reconnection to the present through poetry and love. Cheers.
You have given me a new perspective and explanation of the dept expressed through poetic terminology. I now have a better understanding of the way a connection is shared between people when they are listening to music or reading a poem that can't be shared when studying a course merely based upon reasoning. Beautiful sentiment.
Ian's final remarks speak directly to the moderators' repeated acknowledgements of which team (being christian) they are on as well as questioning him as to why he's not on their team. The instant you "believe" your team is the best, most correct team you've lost the point of his work.
So profoundly true and compassionate! Deeply moved my heart. Let’s maybe all try our best to live our flawed lives with the psyche, the nous, the best love we can give, and all under the mercy of God.
I feel so good listening to all the deep thoughts and emotions I get when Dr Iian McGilchrist is talking. ❤ What a wise man and his voice and his personality are soothing!
Great episode. If I could save just one modern thinker from a terrible global calamity, it would be McGilchrist. There are many people with insightful analysis or good ideas to solve particular problems, but nobody else holds out the hope that a broken world can be made whole again quite the way he does.
Thank you. I’ve listed to many interviews with and lectures by Iain McGilchrist. This is in my top 3 favorites. I’ve sent it on to others I know will appreciate it. Again, thank you.
When I listen to Dr. McGilchrist there is the sense that he is embodying his understanding . I enjoyed it all but was delighted by Dr. McGilchrist’s insightful recognition of the profound truths within myths. My own perspective is that much can be revealed in making the connection between the Garden of Eden myth and the mono myth of the hero’s journey as expressed by Joseph Campbell.
I love this man's work, and the stand it and he take against the mechanical view of the world. His grounding in a scientific understanding of the left and right brain hemispheres makes his observations that much more compelling. Add to this his encyclopedic knowledge and Iain McGilchrist is an indispensable thinker for which we should be most grateful. But a few things he says perplex me, and one of those is the idea that freedom taken too far becomes tyranny. One might as well say that too much truth is a lie or too much beauty is ugliness. Freedom is a transcendental, like truth and beauty and justice. There cannot be "too much" of those things. Thank you for this.
Thank you afresh for this new podcast Justin . I have always admired and been grateful for your amazing imagination and courage to take questions one step further. I can’t tell you how excited I am to listen to this and more of these coming up new interviews.
I have a question to the Seen & Unseen team, as someone who turned away from Churchianity, and who wrestles with an innate sense, based on personal experience of what we might call the sacred: how do you experience your faith, ie an embodied, visceral, lived phenomenon? I've come across waaaay too many Christians who simply cannot respond to that question in a considered, humble and thoughtful fashion. Please surprise me, as I have deep respect for Iain's take on this matter.🌟
Definitely been incorporating some of what I have learned from Ian in my youth ministry. Students need to be “held in the ferment of a story” as Martin Shaw once said.
Excellent discussion. Got many insights about contextuality, misplaced divisiveness and promoting rational collegiality. Thank you for your thoughtful work!
I cannot wait to listen to this. Another great thinker on this topic is Charles Taylor. His newest book, Cosmic Connections (2024) discusses a reenchantment through the lens of German, English, and French romantic poetry, to connect and reconnect to what we in our modern age have lost. Highly recommended text with an excellent bibliography.
@@jakemaxwell5989 It's good. It arrived just before I went back to visit family in England and on vacation to Greece so I had time to get through it. I do plan on reviewing it or at least discussing poetry and enchantment on my RUclips channel and referencing it in the near(ish) future. Just got back to the US. Lots of poems to type up, too. Enjoy the book, I look forward to hearing how you like it.
I think Iain has touched on absolutely vital truths that we need to understand better. Unfortunately, I think he's still dealing with these issues at a primarily intellectual level. Also, I feel like he is using the word "sacred" in a way that implies that there are rituals or beliefs we can adopt to enter into some sort of relationship with the Divine or Absolute. Those feelings of sacredness can lead to a kind of idolatry, such as a belief that a physical place (or Person!) has some kind of value superior to others in a special way, which of course we can't be specific about, because that specificity is an act of the left hemisphere's need to define an undefinable quality. We need to be able to make a change or changes in our lives, in our living experience, that enable the balanced attention he refers to. That change could, if the person introspects deeply and completely, lead to a state that would enable him to see the sacred in any person, place or other object of attention.
A true sage amongst us. Thank you for posting this most valuable talk with Iain McGilchrist. The two charming hosts on the other hand promptly identified themselves as left-brainers by either claiming to be Christians - it is the left brain that separates and categorises, the right-brainer seeks the truth and not the association with any particular religion - or by contemplating a way how "we" - who is 'we'? The enlightened ones, the good, the saved ones, . . .? - could convey this important message of a more right-brain holistic view of the world to the ignorant many.
I love conversations like this,🥰🥰,and I know so very well that our world/Universe is so much bigger than what we can see in front of us.😊😊 I know this from my own experience,♥️,and now more people have to wake up & remember who they really are!🦋♥️🦋
Experiencing the sacred with the right hemisphere--I suggest we have more words for communicating about fully appreciating/comprehending poetry, music, painting, dance etc. I remember listening to a bunch of music conservatory students discussing neapolitan fifths and other arcane items one evening and I said something like "I don't know sny of this technical stuff so I just listen to music and am able to be moved by it. An insightful friend said "You're an English major. You love poetry but you know all sorts of techical things about meter, scansion, etc. Does that knowledge obstruct your appreciation for a poem?" No. It doesn't interfere at all. My right hemisphere can experience something deep, revelatory, moving etc. and my left hemisphere analyze all it wants.
Thank you seen and unseen for this interview. Best interview I have seen with Iain whose intelligence and knowledge can be a bit daunting. I actually understood this one 😱
What is striking me at the halfway mark in the conversation is how the emotions of anger, disgust and self-righteousness are tells of left hemispheric dominance. (I would add frustration - which often triggers anger - to that, and that as the left becomes frustrated in attempting to solve a problem in its very algorithmic and hyper-logical way that it frequenly enters "Basil Faulty" mode, and without the restraint - and humour of the right interjecting to make light of it - it has a freak-out. Perhaps, this accounts for the more challenging a view is to the established truth of the left, the more those left emotions come to dominate. This makes for lots of sound and fury signfiying that Basil is in command and causing chaos - yet again. This would all be very funny if it did not have horrific real world effects that drive us into very dangerous behaviours.) One thing - as a mystical atheist, and yes there is such a thing as contrarian as that sounds - I value many of the artefacts of religion while finding belief to have a left hemispheric quality. Belief to me is reductionist, whereas the unknowns require a more open and less defined approach. (The joy of the unknowns is that they engage us without demanding that we come to a definite conclusion. They inspire contemplation and reflection, and indirectly appreciation since to sit and engage with the unknowns - playfully and imaginatively - is one of the most satisfying of things to do.) Of course, the left hemisphere usually has to have done its Basil thing and stompted off in a huff, or the right has to have become practiced in the art of mental aikido such as engaging in a walk in nature or listening to something like Vaughan WIlliams' "Lark Ascending", or the adagietto out of Mahler's fifth symphony. Overwhelming beauty and feelings of sympathy, sorrow and love drive out left dominant behaviour. Something as simple as a butterfly floating past has quite the disarming affect on me, as does the right introducing an absurd observation about whatever the thing that has my left so excited. Now don't get me wrong, when doing my day job - data pattern specialist - the left's extreme focus is essential, but wider deeper patterns often are more intuitive, and those are a specialty of the right. Thanks for interviewing Iain, and now I will get back to it. (One last thing, writing haiku is a wonderful way to disarm the the left hemisphere.)
29:44 people who are well intentioned think that pushing and pushing things, they see as needing to be pushed. They cause divisions to arise Divisiveness become more damaging rather than less damaging
😂 very right-brained of you to admit it! I'm constantly wondering how he knows all this but I suspect explaining the evidence would be pretty long and dry.
I found a"Christ-shaped" gap in my life when I was 30 and it was one happy summer day when everything else was what I had happily imagined when I was seven. So at 30 I was on this way and gradually becoming more sociable ( less of an autistic nerd ). Interestingly I could start seeking and finding but was spared rock bottom. My Love to all who will use their right mind while not neglecting the focus that is available in the left brain.
I was taught the mechanistic science view of the World,/Universe, and believed it for many years. I now know it was wrong. I do believe in the Divine. I must have always believed, but kept it suppressed, but it can't be suppressed, because we are all connected to its field.
@@leepretorius4869 I have to apologize. You are right. I made the error of mistaking the right for the left (as I suppose some of the rather recent acquaintances of Iains work tend to do).
I find this interesting tying in with Julian Jaynes idea that in early men there was a separation of right and left hemisphere. That the dominant hemisphere was what was God. His research goes on into it was the evolution of language which brought the two hemispheres together.
59:50 it's so interesting that Ian goes "completely left brain" when asked if he believes in Christianity. It really is curious that he asks for *certainty* all of a sudden. I also think he might benefit from talking to John Lennox, I feel that Lennox has a better definition of faith than the more left-brained one that Ian put forth. Faith is to trust, or have confidence in, given the evidence, and all we can hope for is evidence, but we cannot get *proof* in the meaning of incontrovertible, mathematical proof, or something in s petri dish.
I know! I mean I can affirm that Buddhism has some grasp of the truth while being definitively not a Buddhist because I don't believe in reincarnation. I can think Hinduism has some truth without sharing pantheist metaphysics because I think a pantheist understanding of God lacks crucial divine attributes. It's not like you can't evaluate these worldviews on their individual merits! He's still affected by a relativist bias. I think the best way into Christianity for Dr. McGilchrist would be through the Platonist door - the Pseudo Dionysius has mapped out the mystical/intellectual terrain he is travelling quite ably (he's probably passingly familiar with him)! These writings helped provide an intellectual framework through the centuries while also affirming why the mystery cannot be surmounted. A huge amount of this is also in St. Thomas, although he might be a little too left brain for some!
In the beginning I am that I am Created that which is From that which is not The spirit of I am who I am Moved on the depths Of the formless and void Moving by spirit The essence of pattern The image of existence Onto which all things Kinds and likenesses Are called to map All meaning and purpose I am what I am Spoke in fractal terms The geometric shapes of All things real, material Being the observer Collapsing the wave Of non being function Of all created things Kinds and likenesses of being In the simultaneity of the pattern Of being I am that I am Divided light from darkness A cosmological constant Of darkness moving Faster than light And light moving At least time Through the pattern Now known as the face Of the deep I am that I am Thus created by moving Speaking and observing Calling to meaning Dividing time-space-energy To form the kinds Likenesses and images Of all being
Beautiful honest conversation! Dr McGilchrist is a treasure. Catholic nuns and priests in india are desperately want to prove their own God is not only powerful but will demolish humans who do not obey. India the great leader Dalia lama' his wisdom is displaying historical gains. His believers followers even many catholic nuns and priests all joint showing kindness compassion forgiveness the mystical powers of these powerful and mystical human hopefully spread a pandemic of love and happiness. Witnessed in Sikkim Tashi Namgyal Academy school children teacher s are trained. There is hope with great leaders working honestly and desperately, Thank you. Love and peace to all.
Absolutely brilliant. Just think of all those kids who were shamed into leaving their right brains in the past because they were not practical. Just think of all the sages that were made impotent by the notion of efficiency. You could also say it this way: just think of all the things that were killed because of all the machines that were made.
An excellent discussion! How good it is to acknowledge uncertainty and complexity within the sacred. Modern Christianity fails by emphasising binary belief ( I believe vs I don’t believe) at the expense of discipleship. Discipleship is a gradual process of transformation.
I have become aware of the contributions of each hemisphere after reading (well I'm MOSTLY through it) The Master and His Emissary .... I notice it when I'm drawn to do things a certain way, or when I'm drawn to reject a certain way ... weirdly, this often happens while jogging and listening to music. I think that's because my right brain has largely taken over during that activity, and it notices ... well ... it becomes aware of more of what's going on, including the babbling of the left hemisphere. It doesn't object to the left. It just notices and oddly enough, I think it makes the left hemisphere a little self-aware .... ("ah, you got me! That is indeed what I'm doing!") because they're still communicating with each other. I think, interestingly enough, if the left hemisphere gets enough information about the view of the right, it can construct a bit of a looser structure that allows for its own self-awareness ... we can build a self-critical construct -- in the left hemisphere, that can help keep it more honest and more flexible than it otherwise would be.
What is writing? Using your imagination to construct a thought through words or images is not real to the world in a physical sense until it is scribed onto a form of shared material designated by symbols that have shared meaning. Does that mean that imagination isn't real? Or is it more than real? Is reality only a single state of being and why is it considered by some to be the most important? Is the hypothesis in the scientific method any more or less important than the conclusion?
Hume firmly believed that evil and suffering offered evidence that God didn’t exist. The argument as follows, led him to state that it was not reasonable to believe in God’s existence: If God is omniscient then He must know about all the suffering, so why doesn’t He help? If God is omnipresent then He must see all the suffering, so why doesn’t He want to help people? If God is omnipotent then He must be powerful enough to stop the suffering, so why does He continue to let it happen? If God is omnibenevolent, He must love everyone enough to stop all the suffering, surely a loving God wouldn’t want to see people suffering?
Faith is a path you have to get to in your own way. I always rejected religion due to it being forced on me as a child (without explanation).....but you have to walk your walk and travel through life before realising your own way of coming to faith
By the way it was the church that introduced a critique against magic precisely because belief in God is not another item in the universe we can control but the very source of the existence of everything. Until we see what is meant by “God” is not fantasy but the very serious issue of existence, truth, beauty and the good ultimately love.
Excellent episode, highlighted a key idea for me, namely that religion is not a purely 'right brained' phenomena and there is a real and problematic tendency to translate the mystical and poetic 'right brain' aspects of religion into the dogmatic, credal, literalist and jurist 'left brain' ones, and that is part of the problem 'the tradition' in the West has faced, it's not just the 'left brained assault of science' that's the problem, and no doubt it's increasingly wrong to cast science as purely 'left brain' analytical activity, he does now look at complexity, hidden connection, underlying oneness, and 'fuzzy phenomena'
These points apply to all religious faith, not only Christianity. What you don’t mention though is that faith is a faculty of the human soul, which interacts with the brain but is not physical, so is not either hemisphere of the brain, but it is our true self.
Well said . When Jesus advises that " When thine eye be single ...." - to me it is likely that this is referring to the union of the two hemispheres . I have also considered that he was referring to the opening of the third eye - as purported by Eastern traditions - where faculties such as clairvoyance become an everyday reality - the "Siddhis" . St Paul makes comment on this in his statement where he states that (my paraphrase) " If you have the power to fly , to see the future , the faith to move mountains , etc , but you don't have love in your heart , all these things are as nothing" . Maybe it's the case that when the mind is balanced , united , incorporated , this is the singularity Jesus speaks of and in this singularity , Love is the predominating reality . This provides the perfect home for the soul. Lately I have been listening to readings of Madam Guyon - the French Christian mystic 1648-1717 . She is extraordinary . Also , Lillian De Waters - an American mystic b. 1883 . As a 70 yo man I have been vastly influenced by many male mystics , philosophers , saints and gurus , and yet more recently it seems that these women mystics go straight to the heart . If you are interested - have a listen to Samaneri Jayasara reading from both of these .(youtube). Best wishes.🤗
We wouldn't know anything about the right hemisphere without the scientific method. We first had to learn mental discipline before we could begin to understand how the brain works -- and have this conversation. Many religious people, such as the hosts of this video, have not learned this. They, too, want simple answers and are afraid of challenging their reality.
Dear Sir, isn’t beliefs in religion deemed more related to left temporal lobe and religion is dogma and can’t be from a brain that looks at the big picture and when we did use our imagination we used to have multiple deities rather than mystic divine of the ONE??
Tick - think deep - and find the Divine State - in everything and always. Especially - within the heart. Real Being .... in absolute subtlety and purity. Fare thee well - in life's journey
At 25:00, we learn that the left is disgust and self righteousness...this from a frowning old man on his high horse dictating to a dirty unwashed population of sinners. OMG OMG Pot calls kettle...I am just sayin'. These people need to listen to Belle, she's not a ding dong! I think she should have more responsibility in this show! Whose with me? Her face speaks of intelligence to me...the fray mouth smile? Closed set eyes...that beautiful accent? She is ready for Prime Time! Let's let the girls lead once in a while!
This is what drove Nietzsche crazy. He was a right brain philosopher trapped in a left brain world of philologists who carried on like the "bean counters" of language. He published Birth of Tragety in order to try to present a larger, more complete, artistic picture of life versus the typical academic treatises that he considered "dry as chalk dust". He engendered very negative reviews along the lines that his work wasn't "scientific" enough. He lost respect among his collegues, and for all intents and purposes this eventually ended his academic career. Nietzsche said that the goal of the Birth of Tragedy was to "see science under the lens of the artist, and art under the lens of life". In retrospect, using Dr. McGilchrist's perspective, Nietzsche was attempting to use his right hemisphere (as well as the left) in a strictly left brained German academic millieu.
Thank you Iain. Your work has helped me enormously to understand myself and many of my interactions. I strongly resonate with the way you describe both ways we perceive the world and more importantly why seemingly fiercely intelligent people do not always see as clearly as I'd like them to. Unfortunately that side of us that sees isn't vocal without the "Emissary" and consequently sharing nuance is the challenge I face due to not developing that side of me. At least I'm aware now of my inabilities...
All knowledge fragments the ever-evolving whole. In truth, there is no division of reality, no still points without human beings imagining such fragmentation. No amount of knowledge can understand the ever-changing whole. All is one ....
How do we believe in the Divine? Because a shift from prior, cognitive non-belief to belief will not work in and of itself...there must be an active component.
One can easily adopt a divine vision of our world/cosmos, and yet be adamant about the disestablishment of ANY organized religion from governance -- which, as deployed and developed, is the brilliant invention of the US Constitution.
I can only add the speaker's words of praise. My husband and I (aged 91 and 92) have been watching and listening to you for nearly two years and feel as all your followers do have a profound new about way of seeing things , and a new sense of peace ,inspite of the state of society and climate. No other Podcast has the positive effect you do Iain.
"Sometimes when we argue,
A grain of truth is sown.
If we humbly nurture it,
We'll bring a harvest home.
Thru respect and listening,
We finally agree
And form a stronger partnership
Than one found easily.
"We Need Each Other;
My way may not do.
We were meant to complement
And help each other thru.
As we grow together,
We'll come to understand
We need each other,
So let me take your hand.
--From my song "We Need Each Other."
(c) 2000, Dan Eumurian.
Holy smokes AI is at work!
I had a disagreement with my wife today and we both said unwise things. I'm sending her this poem.
No, it's synchronicity, I had the same though and sent it to my friend :)
Iain is just wonderful. I wish and hope he will give lectures to every university in the UK, frankly listening to Iain should be mandatory.
Such an eloquent and enlightening conversation between the 3 of you!
This was my 3rd listening of Iain's and i so appreciate what he shared on his innermost feelings of sacred and Devine!
As a very left-brained software engineer I am so thankful for this podcast. Thank you for talking about the things that really matter!
I 100% agree!😊😊
We may at some point, the sooner the better, reach the end of the materialistic Darwinian perspective. A higher age perspective was fourteen versions of the human to a uniquely human prototype in a universal cycle. If Darwinism is ditched as speculative, maybe we can reach the heights again and have an above the waist culture in music, art, etc. rather than the below the waist culture we have now.
@@ALavin-en1kr calling a culture either above the waist or below the waist is the best description 😂
@@ALavin-en1kr I often joked about selling anti-horny pills to make such things happen.
It's not like the incel gets to turn into the wise monk.
Trump is like a Pumpkin. Orange on the outside, empty on the inside, and you throw it out in November.
How many MAGA Republicans does it take to change a light bulb?
None - Trump just tells them he fixed it and they sit there in the dark and applaud.
"I cannot tell a lie" - George Washington
"I cannot tell the truth" - Donald Trump
"I cannot tell the difference" - MAGA
GOP are born followers following a born loser who was given 400 million dollars free and filed bankruptcy six times and on top of that he has convinced his cult followers that he was smart for filing bankruptcy that many times. Ever read 1984? The GOP fall in line and perfectly fit this description.
Iain McGilchrist is a national treasure
As are You! 🧠 👑
He is a trasure of all humans
You're wrong. He's a worldwide treasure.
@@txikilinI'll take that
He is ❤ Just love him
Always love listening to Iain McGilchrist, great voice, excellent delivery and invariably, thought provoking.
As a high school English teacher, this video has me musing on three related dichotomies in whose dissolution our education system languishes. First is that we see the world through the lens of non-fiction and story without seeing the world and all of creation as a poem. Good poetry recreates internal states of mind and heart from the poet in the mind and heart of the reader. Existence is not merely a story, a series of successive events; it is a poem, communicating materially an immaterial mind. More than that, its material gives its “readers” a shared language of sensation by which they communicate their own immaterial selves sensibly to each other for the sake of deep love relationship with each other and with God.
Relatedly, our education system is future-oriented, and therefore views all goods as instrumental to purposes which are, definitionally, thrust out of the present. There is little regard for the discipline of poetry which fixes the eyes to see goodness in and into the present. In The Screwtape Letters, Lewis put it this way, “the Future is, of all things, the thing least like eternity. It is the most completely temporal part of time-for the Past is frozen and no longer flows, and the Present is all lit up with eternal rays…Gratitude looks to the past and love to the present.” When we train ourselves to see present goods as contingent upon their relation to the future, those future goods cease to be good when they become present, and thus gladness escapes us ad infinitum.
Finally, and again, relatedly, our system of education focuses myopically on analysis, the means of knowing things through taking apart. If the only mode of thinking one has is to disintegrate wholes, one ends up concluding that existence is “full of sound and fury, signifying nothing.” Meaning is found through synthesis, not through analysis. In our systems of education, synthesis, the thinking which gathers back the pieces which analysis found into an understanding of relationship, has been abandoned, because it is, in the social imaginary, not a reliable means of knowing. Or not even a means of knowing at all.
Totally agree. You'd probably enjoy Martha Nussbaum "s Fragility of Goodness. Deals with narrative/myth as superior way to think philosophically.
@@jakemaxwell5989 I see a lot of this in how the church presents scripture as well. Particularly how we communicate to students, we give them the “take away” but don’t invite them into the story or display for them the poetry of scripture. Thank you for talking the time to share this! 🙏
This is such a profound comment that I couldn't agree more with. Always loved the idea of the universe as a poem. In a Christianized context it is the "Word" that brings everything into existence. Here's to reconnection to the present through poetry and love. Cheers.
You have given me a new perspective and explanation of the dept expressed through poetic terminology.
I now have a better understanding of the way a connection is shared between people when they are listening to music or reading a poem that can't be shared when studying a course merely based upon reasoning.
Beautiful sentiment.
Milton thou shouldst be living at this hour !
Ian's final remarks speak directly to the moderators' repeated acknowledgements of which team (being christian) they are on as well as questioning him as to why he's not on their team.
The instant you "believe" your team is the best, most correct team you've lost the point of his work.
Exactly. He literally describes ying/yang at one point. These are truths that transcend religion.
So profoundly true and compassionate! Deeply moved my heart. Let’s maybe all try our best to live our flawed lives with the psyche, the nous, the best love we can give, and all under the mercy of God.
I feel so good listening to all the deep thoughts and emotions I get when Dr Iian McGilchrist is talking. ❤ What a wise man and his voice and his personality are soothing!
I love Iian McGilchrist's books and lectures. Profoundly, he is one of our greatest minds today, and I thank all of you.
🙏❤️🌍🌏🌎🌿🕊🎵🎶🎵✨️💫✨️
This was one of the best interviews with McGilchrist I've yet come across. Many thanks!
For me - the best one ever.
And that is saying a lot!
This was just beautiful. I feel like a little of my humanity just came back to myself.
I appreciate those who stay open like mcGilchrist
McGilchrist is not "open". He states that that things "cannot be denied" are "beyond articulation" and that "nothing will deter him".
It's funny how people who know a lot, like Dr. McGilchrist, are some of the least dogmatic people.
Great episode. If I could save just one modern thinker from a terrible global calamity, it would be McGilchrist. There are many people with insightful analysis or good ideas to solve particular problems, but nobody else holds out the hope that a broken world can be made whole again quite the way he does.
he is wonderful. I would also save thomas sowell.
Thank you. I’ve listed to many interviews with and lectures by Iain McGilchrist. This is in my top 3 favorites. I’ve sent it on to others I know will appreciate it. Again, thank you.
When I listen to Dr. McGilchrist there is the sense that he is embodying his understanding . I enjoyed it all but was delighted by Dr. McGilchrist’s insightful recognition of the profound truths within myths. My own perspective is that much can be revealed in making the connection between the Garden of Eden myth and the mono myth of the hero’s journey as expressed by Joseph Campbell.
If we understand what makes one day better, we can make our entire life better.
I love this man's work, and the stand it and he take against the mechanical view of the world. His grounding in a scientific understanding of the left and right brain hemispheres makes his observations that much more compelling. Add to this his encyclopedic knowledge and Iain McGilchrist is an indispensable thinker for which we should be most grateful. But a few things he says perplex me, and one of those is the idea that freedom taken too far becomes tyranny. One might as well say that too much truth is a lie or too much beauty is ugliness. Freedom is a transcendental, like truth and beauty and justice. There cannot be "too much" of those things. Thank you for this.
Thank you 🙏
Thank you afresh for this new podcast Justin . I have always admired and been grateful for your amazing imagination and courage to take questions one step further. I can’t tell you how excited I am to listen to this and more of these coming up new interviews.
Absolutely agree with every last word Dr. McGilchrist says.
Yep the RH grabs short term and the right hemisphere keeps an eye out. So true. The GOP are dangerous liars. Dumber than hell. Just like he says.
I have a question to the Seen & Unseen team, as someone who turned away from Churchianity, and who wrestles with an innate sense, based on personal experience of what we might call the sacred: how do you experience your faith, ie an embodied, visceral, lived phenomenon?
I've come across waaaay too many Christians who simply cannot respond to that question in a considered, humble and thoughtful fashion.
Please surprise me, as I have deep respect for Iain's take on this matter.🌟
I often ask how many people actually got it any. How many Christians are there as fire insurance clients?
Definitely been incorporating some of what I have learned from Ian in my youth ministry. Students need to be “held in the ferment of a story” as Martin Shaw once said.
"Youth ministry" sounds grim! Try 'befriending'.
Thank you!!! Dr. McGilchrist is a absolute GEM.🙃🙏💯💕
Excellent discussion. Got many insights about contextuality, misplaced divisiveness and promoting rational collegiality. Thank you for your thoughtful work!
Good Lord! Bless and keep this Man ❤
Iain McGilchrist is an amazing philosopher to listen to. ....... So humble and knowledgeable.!!
I cannot wait to listen to this. Another great thinker on this topic is Charles Taylor. His newest book, Cosmic Connections (2024) discusses a reenchantment through the lens of German, English, and French romantic poetry, to connect and reconnect to what we in our modern age have lost. Highly recommended text with an excellent bibliography.
I just started reading that book! I'm excited.
@@jakemaxwell5989 It's good. It arrived just before I went back to visit family in England and on vacation to Greece so I had time to get through it. I do plan on reviewing it or at least discussing poetry and enchantment on my RUclips channel and referencing it in the near(ish) future. Just got back to the US. Lots of poems to type up, too. Enjoy the book, I look forward to hearing how you like it.
I think Iain has touched on absolutely vital truths that we need to understand better. Unfortunately, I think he's still dealing with these issues at a primarily intellectual level. Also, I feel like he is using the word "sacred" in a way that implies that there are rituals or beliefs we can adopt to enter into some sort of relationship with the Divine or Absolute. Those feelings of sacredness can lead to a kind of idolatry, such as a belief that a physical place (or Person!) has some kind of value superior to others in a special way, which of course we can't be specific about, because that specificity is an act of the left hemisphere's need to define an undefinable quality. We need to be able to make a change or changes in our lives, in our living experience, that enable the balanced attention he refers to. That change could, if the person introspects deeply and completely, lead to a state that would enable him to see the sacred in any person, place or other object of attention.
Beautiful and enchanting. Thank you so much, one and all.
A true sage amongst us. Thank you for posting this most valuable talk with Iain McGilchrist. The two charming hosts on the other hand promptly identified themselves as left-brainers by either claiming to be Christians - it is the left brain that separates and categorises, the right-brainer seeks the truth and not the association with any particular religion - or by contemplating a way how "we" - who is 'we'? The enlightened ones, the good, the saved ones, . . .? - could convey this important message of a more right-brain holistic view of the world to the ignorant many.
Wow what a great episode - lovely insight from Belle! Always great to hear what she has to say 💛
This was really beautiful to listen to. Thank you so much to all of you!
I love conversations like this,🥰🥰,and I know so very well that our world/Universe is so much bigger than what we can see in front of us.😊😊
I know this from my own experience,♥️,and now more people have to wake up & remember who they really are!🦋♥️🦋
Thanks for this, guys.
I would love to hear Iain further discuss this with Bishop Barron.
Thank you for reintroducing me to myself! A delightful way to spend my old age (82).
Such an interesting conversation. Thankyou
Experiencing the sacred with the right hemisphere--I suggest we have more words for communicating about fully appreciating/comprehending poetry, music, painting, dance etc.
I remember listening to a bunch of music conservatory students discussing neapolitan fifths and other arcane items one evening and I said something like "I don't know sny of this technical stuff so I just listen to music and am able to be moved by it. An insightful friend said "You're an English major. You love poetry but you know all sorts of techical things about meter, scansion, etc. Does that knowledge obstruct your appreciation for a poem?"
No. It doesn't interfere at all. My right hemisphere can experience something deep, revelatory, moving etc. and my left hemisphere analyze all it wants.
Hello (lefty) who cares about truth and about being humane to one another and caring about the general well being and decency of people. TY
"Changing course when commanded, When commanded, holding true...."
--From my song "Coming Closer to the Wind "
Wonderful. ❤
Thank you seen and unseen for this interview. Best interview I have seen with Iain whose intelligence and knowledge can be a bit daunting. I actually understood this one 😱
What is striking me at the halfway mark in the conversation is how the emotions of anger, disgust and self-righteousness are tells of left hemispheric dominance. (I would add frustration - which often triggers anger - to that, and that as the left becomes frustrated in attempting to solve a problem in its very algorithmic and hyper-logical way that it frequenly enters "Basil Faulty" mode, and without the restraint - and humour of the right interjecting to make light of it - it has a freak-out. Perhaps, this accounts for the more challenging a view is to the established truth of the left, the more those left emotions come to dominate. This makes for lots of sound and fury signfiying that Basil is in command and causing chaos - yet again. This would all be very funny if it did not have horrific real world effects that drive us into very dangerous behaviours.)
One thing - as a mystical atheist, and yes there is such a thing as contrarian as that sounds - I value many of the artefacts of religion while finding belief to have a left hemispheric quality. Belief to me is reductionist, whereas the unknowns require a more open and less defined approach. (The joy of the unknowns is that they engage us without demanding that we come to a definite conclusion. They inspire contemplation and reflection, and indirectly appreciation since to sit and engage with the unknowns - playfully and imaginatively - is one of the most satisfying of things to do.) Of course, the left hemisphere usually has to have done its Basil thing and stompted off in a huff, or the right has to have become practiced in the art of mental aikido such as engaging in a walk in nature or listening to something like Vaughan WIlliams' "Lark Ascending", or the adagietto out of Mahler's fifth symphony. Overwhelming beauty and feelings of sympathy, sorrow and love drive out left dominant behaviour. Something as simple as a butterfly floating past has quite the disarming affect on me, as does the right introducing an absurd observation about whatever the thing that has my left so excited. Now don't get me wrong, when doing my day job - data pattern specialist - the left's extreme focus is essential, but wider deeper patterns often are more intuitive, and those are a specialty of the right.
Thanks for interviewing Iain, and now I will get back to it. (One last thing, writing haiku is a wonderful way to disarm the the left hemisphere.)
29:44 people who are well intentioned think that pushing and pushing things, they see as needing to be pushed. They cause divisions to arise
Divisiveness become more damaging rather than less damaging
Long suffering with love with patience! Surrounding about mercy and grace!
I love the image of the jumped-up functionary! (So many of these around in organisations these days, since meritocracy has been relaxed.)
This conversation is flying right over my head.
😂 very right-brained of you to admit it! I'm constantly wondering how he knows all this but I suspect explaining the evidence would be pretty long and dry.
As children “Full of wonder and imagination of flowers and puddles to jump in and at best full faith wonder.”
Thank you, I found a higher Power of my own understanding once I hit a personal bottom. 📘🙏❤️🔥
I found a"Christ-shaped" gap in my life when I was 30 and
it was one happy summer day when everything else was what I had happily imagined when I was seven.
So at 30 I was on this way and gradually becoming more sociable ( less of an autistic nerd ).
Interestingly I could start seeking and finding but was spared rock bottom.
My Love to all who will use their right mind while not neglecting the focus that is available in the left brain.
Wish I'd had a teacher like this when I was at school! Thank you Iain!
My beautiful will say, for unfamiliar unto many! Who is unconditional LOVE sitteth in the Midst!
Thank you
This reminds me of what I learned from the Myers Briggs personality types.
I was taught the mechanistic science view of the World,/Universe, and believed it for many years. I now know it was wrong. I do believe in the Divine. I must have always believed, but kept it suppressed, but it can't be suppressed, because we are all connected to its field.
Left hemisphere does that. Not able to see the whole picture. Complete idiots. Liars.
content is primary❤❤❤
the context is primary❤
In biblical exegesis the first and only rule is: context, context, context. This is saying “right brain first”.
The first sentence is, in essence, true. The second is not. You lessen the concept of context on principal, by claiming it was "right brain first".
@@Josef138 how so? Isn’t the right brain concerned with context?
Nurture AWE .... MYSTERY ...
@@faza553 sure, but clarity is important to or next thing you’re worshipping nature.
@@leepretorius4869 I have to apologize. You are right. I made the error of mistaking the right for the left (as I suppose some of the rather recent acquaintances of Iains work tend to do).
how do i know what side i use most? did an IQ once I was front and center in most use of my brain
Beautiful conversation
I find this interesting tying in with Julian Jaynes idea that in early men there was a separation of right and left hemisphere. That the dominant hemisphere was what was God. His research goes on into it was the evolution of language which brought the two hemispheres together.
Nice man, powerful stuff
Time from Who am I to "i" AM Beautiful in front of thee!
59:50 it's so interesting that Ian goes "completely left brain" when asked if he believes in Christianity. It really is curious that he asks for *certainty* all of a sudden.
I also think he might benefit from talking to John Lennox, I feel that Lennox has a better definition of faith than the more left-brained one that Ian put forth.
Faith is to trust, or have confidence in, given the evidence, and all we can hope for is evidence, but we cannot get *proof* in the meaning of incontrovertible, mathematical proof, or something in s petri dish.
I know! I mean I can affirm that Buddhism has some grasp of the truth while being definitively not a Buddhist because I don't believe in reincarnation. I can think Hinduism has some truth without sharing pantheist metaphysics because I think a pantheist understanding of God lacks crucial divine attributes. It's not like you can't evaluate these worldviews on their individual merits! He's still affected by a relativist bias. I think the best way into Christianity for Dr. McGilchrist would be through the Platonist door - the Pseudo Dionysius has mapped out the mystical/intellectual terrain he is travelling quite ably (he's probably passingly familiar with him)! These writings helped provide an intellectual framework through the centuries while also affirming why the mystery cannot be surmounted. A huge amount of this is also in St. Thomas, although he might be a little too left brain for some!
Enlightenment habits die hard.
Those of us with a scientific / naturalistic / technical education are heavily embedded in left brain ruts.
Course whose to say the judean god is THE god if there is one supreme being
Think me or you got the answers people been debating for millennia
In the beginning
I am that I am
Created that which is
From that which is not
The spirit of
I am who I am
Moved on the depths
Of the formless and void
Moving by spirit
The essence of pattern
The image of existence
Onto which all things
Kinds and likenesses
Are called to map
All meaning and purpose
I am what I am
Spoke in fractal terms
The geometric shapes of
All things real, material
Being the observer
Collapsing the wave
Of non being function
Of all created things
Kinds and likenesses of being
In the simultaneity of the pattern
Of being
I am that I am
Divided light from darkness
A cosmological constant
Of darkness moving
Faster than light
And light moving
At least time
Through the pattern
Now known as the face
Of the deep
I am that I am
Thus created by moving
Speaking and observing
Calling to meaning
Dividing time-space-energy
To form the kinds
Likenesses and images
Of all being
Thank you for this beautiful right hemispheric incantation of the biblical creation song,
We need to experience the divine directly. Believing in it hasn't worked out too well...
Hello 🤗🤗🤗, Thank you
Beautiful honest conversation! Dr McGilchrist is a treasure. Catholic nuns and priests in india are desperately want to prove their own God is not only powerful but will demolish humans who do not obey. India the great leader Dalia lama' his wisdom is displaying historical gains. His believers followers even many catholic nuns and priests all joint showing kindness compassion forgiveness the mystical powers of these powerful and mystical human hopefully spread a pandemic of love and happiness. Witnessed in Sikkim Tashi Namgyal Academy school children teacher s are trained. There is hope with great leaders working honestly and desperately, Thank you. Love and peace to all.
I think it is worth remembering in the context of this discussion that the Churches have always held on to the notion of mystery in belief systems.
"He that breaks a thing to find out what it is has left the path of wisdom" - Gandalf
Absolutely brilliant. Just think of all those kids who were shamed into leaving their right brains in the past because they were not practical. Just think of all the sages that were made impotent by the notion of efficiency. You could also say it this way: just think of all the things that were killed because of all the machines that were made.
Love this !!!
Huge fan of Dr McGilchrist.
I wonder if all this also relates to neurodiverse brains though.
You ought to read Owen Barfield, talk to someone who are into his ideas, and relate it to what McGilchrist is saying.
Agreed! Poetic Diction is radical. In the good way.
An excellent discussion! How good it is to acknowledge uncertainty and complexity within the sacred. Modern Christianity fails by emphasising binary belief ( I believe vs I don’t believe) at the expense of discipleship. Discipleship is a gradual process of transformation.
I have become aware of the contributions of each hemisphere after reading (well I'm MOSTLY through it) The Master and His Emissary .... I notice it when I'm drawn to do things a certain way, or when I'm drawn to reject a certain way ... weirdly, this often happens while jogging and listening to music. I think that's because my right brain has largely taken over during that activity, and it notices ... well ... it becomes aware of more of what's going on, including the babbling of the left hemisphere.
It doesn't object to the left. It just notices and oddly enough, I think it makes the left hemisphere a little self-aware .... ("ah, you got me! That is indeed what I'm doing!") because they're still communicating with each other.
I think, interestingly enough, if the left hemisphere gets enough information about the view of the right, it can construct a bit of a looser structure that allows for its own self-awareness ... we can build a self-critical construct -- in the left hemisphere, that can help keep it more honest and more flexible than it otherwise would be.
What is writing? Using your imagination to construct a thought through words or images is not real to the world in a physical sense until it is scribed onto a form of shared material designated by symbols that have shared meaning. Does that mean that imagination isn't real? Or is it more than real? Is reality only a single state of being and why is it considered by some to be the most important? Is the hypothesis in the scientific method any more or less important than the conclusion?
Hume firmly believed that evil and suffering offered evidence that God didn’t exist. The argument
as follows, led him to state that it was not reasonable to believe in God’s existence:
If God is omniscient then He must know about all the suffering, so why doesn’t
He help?
If God is omnipresent then He must see all the suffering, so why doesn’t He want
to help people?
If God is omnipotent then He must be powerful enough to stop the suffering, so
why does He continue to let it happen?
If God is omnibenevolent, He must love everyone enough to stop all the
suffering, surely a loving God wouldn’t want to see people suffering?
Faith is a path you have to get to in your own way. I always rejected religion due to it being forced on me as a child (without explanation).....but you have to walk your walk and travel through life before realising your own way of coming to faith
My beautiful what is "i" AM?
I appreciate nature but have no connection to divinity. I gave up any beliefs in magic when I was 11.
By the way it was the church that introduced a critique against magic precisely because belief in God is not another item in the universe we can control but the very source of the existence of everything.
Until we see what is meant by “God” is not fantasy but the very serious issue of existence, truth, beauty and the good ultimately love.
Excellent episode, highlighted a key idea for me, namely that religion is not a purely 'right brained' phenomena and there is a real and problematic tendency to translate the mystical and poetic 'right brain' aspects of religion into the dogmatic, credal, literalist and jurist 'left brain' ones, and that is part of the problem 'the tradition' in the West has faced, it's not just the 'left brained assault of science' that's the problem, and no doubt it's increasingly wrong to cast science as purely 'left brain' analytical activity, he does now look at complexity, hidden connection, underlying oneness, and 'fuzzy phenomena'
Good heavens!
These points apply to all religious faith, not only Christianity. What you don’t mention though is that faith is a faculty of the human soul, which interacts with the brain but is not physical, so is not either hemisphere of the brain, but it is our true self.
Well said . When Jesus advises that " When thine eye be single ...." - to me it is likely that this is referring to the union of the two hemispheres . I have also considered that he was referring to the opening of the third eye - as purported by Eastern traditions - where faculties such as clairvoyance become an everyday reality - the "Siddhis" .
St Paul makes comment on this in his statement where he states that (my paraphrase) " If you have the power to fly , to see the future , the faith to move mountains , etc , but you don't have love in your heart , all these things are as nothing" .
Maybe it's the case that when the mind is balanced , united , incorporated , this is the singularity Jesus speaks of and in this singularity , Love is the predominating reality . This provides the perfect home for the soul.
Lately I have been listening to readings of Madam Guyon - the French Christian mystic 1648-1717 . She is extraordinary . Also ,
Lillian De Waters - an American mystic b. 1883 . As a 70 yo man I have been vastly influenced by many male mystics , philosophers , saints and gurus , and yet more recently it seems that these women mystics go straight to the heart .
If you are interested - have a listen to Samaneri Jayasara reading from both of these .(youtube).
Best wishes.🤗
At 39:10 - a loss to the monastic life…
For Angels who persevere and heard the WORD and HOSTS shared "i" AM knows? And our Beautiful!
A thought popped into my head that there is four depths to reality? Word numbers symbols and observer
The real the symbolic and the imaginary registers of existence lacan
We wouldn't know anything about the right hemisphere without the scientific method. We first had to learn mental discipline before we could begin to understand how the brain works -- and have this conversation. Many religious people, such as the hosts of this video, have not learned this. They, too, want simple answers and are afraid of challenging their reality.
Dear Sir, isn’t beliefs in religion deemed more related to left temporal lobe and religion is dogma and can’t be from a brain that looks at the big picture and when we did use our imagination we used to have multiple deities rather than mystic divine of the ONE??
Tick - think deep - and find the Divine State - in everything and always.
Especially - within the heart.
Real Being .... in absolute subtlety and purity.
Fare thee well - in life's journey
At 25:00, we learn that the left is disgust and self righteousness...this from a frowning old man on his high horse dictating to a dirty unwashed population of sinners. OMG OMG Pot calls kettle...I am just sayin'. These people need to listen to Belle, she's not a ding dong! I think she should have more responsibility in this show! Whose with me? Her face speaks of intelligence to me...the fray mouth smile? Closed set eyes...that beautiful accent? She is ready for Prime Time! Let's let the girls lead once in a while!
What a lovely comment about Belle - just wondering what you mean by a fray smile? 😊
What is right and left? Who sitteth in the Midst will say?
The Enlightenment vs Romanticism. Might want to read Goethes “Faust”
This is what drove Nietzsche crazy. He was a right brain philosopher trapped in a left brain world of philologists who carried on like the "bean counters" of language. He published Birth of Tragety in order to try to present a larger, more complete, artistic picture of life versus the typical academic treatises that he considered "dry as chalk dust". He engendered very negative reviews along the lines that his work wasn't "scientific" enough. He lost respect among his collegues, and for all intents and purposes this eventually ended his academic career. Nietzsche said that the goal of the Birth of Tragedy was to "see science under the lens of the artist, and art under the lens of life". In retrospect, using Dr. McGilchrist's perspective, Nietzsche was attempting to use his right hemisphere (as well as the left) in a strictly left brained German academic millieu.
Is like why call thee my beautiful?
Thank you Iain. Your work has helped me enormously to understand myself and many of my interactions.
I strongly resonate with the way you describe both ways we perceive the world and more importantly why seemingly fiercely intelligent people do not always see as clearly as I'd like them to.
Unfortunately that side of us that sees isn't vocal without the "Emissary" and consequently sharing nuance is the challenge I face due to not developing that side of me.
At least I'm aware now of my inabilities...
All knowledge fragments the ever-evolving whole. In truth, there is no division of reality, no still points without human beings imagining such fragmentation. No amount of knowledge can understand the ever-changing whole. All is one ....
How do we believe in the Divine? Because a shift from prior, cognitive non-belief to belief will not work in and of itself...there must be an active component.
Beloved what is a BODY?
One can easily adopt a divine vision of our world/cosmos, and yet be adamant about the disestablishment of ANY organized religion from governance -- which, as deployed and developed, is the brilliant invention of the US Constitution.
4:46 “the romantics”
He needs to add Hamann and Bavinck to this list!