Confusing ending sends Washington to LLWS, a breakdown
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- Опубликовано: 15 авг 2022
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That was totally blown. It makes absolutely no difference where the ball actually went, whether it was actually fair or foul. As soon as the 3rd base umpire called the ball foul, the play is over. As someone said below, he should have "owned up to it" - and why he didn't, since he made what looks like the correct call, is beyond me.
Thing is U3 came off the line, and we can not see in any of the replays if the home plate umpire had stepped up on to the line when he made the fair point (i.e. called it fair).
9.04 - (c) If different decisions should be made on one play by different umpires, the umpire-in-chief shall call all the umpires into consultation, with no manager or player present. After consultation, the umpire-in-chief shall determine which decision shall prevail, based on which umpire was in the best position and which decision was most likely correct. Play shall proceed as if only the final decision had been made.
In the case of International Tournament Games Williamsport has the final word. The review from Williamsport on the video review was fair ball.
@@brentsmithline3423 The problem isn't different calls/decisions. If any ump makes a call that stops play/is a dead ball, then that's it. It's like an inadvertent whistle in football. Many years ago in a P&R softball game, we had runners on 1st and 2nd. Ball was hit to the SS, and our runner going to 3rd jumped over the ball. It didn't hit him, but even though the field ump was closest, the home plate ump yelled "dead ball, the runner's out". The SS went ahead and threw to 2nd, and they called the runner from 1st out. Then, they threw the ball to the 3B, who tagged our guy who was walking off the field, because he had heard the "dead ball/runner's out" call. The field ump said to the home plate ump the ball did not hit our runner, so the home plate ump first said it was a double play - force & tag. We went ballistic! I firmly believe we should have had the bases loaded, since they admitted the ball didn't touch the runner, and the home plate ump finally, grudgingly admitted he did call "dead ball". Sure it was a bad call, and play shouldn't have been stopped, but that's irrelevant - it was stopped. In the end, I think they decided to call our runner to 3rd out after all - frankly at that point I think they didn't care about the rules, and were "just trying to be fair". No pun intended...
Holy crap! I had to look up to see if I was reading my own post.
Sing it, brother!
This is EXACTLY right.
Even if the ump called fair, the 3rd base ump clearly called for the play to stop and the ball to be dead. Foul and TIME are the same signal. dead ball, advance the runners, no run scored.
Correct me if I'm wrong but, there's no audible fair "call" on a fair ball. So once the third base ump raised his arms, he should have owned his gesture and announced that he signaled foul. In my opinion.
correct, you never say "fair"
It's like a player being called down in football or a player being out in basketball. If any ref calls that, its just unsurmountably illogical for it to be able to be overruled. Once those calls happen, it instantly affects any continuation of play.
There isn’t an audible call required, but you can absolutely say it. There’s nothing that says you shouldn’t voice the call.
On top of that, instead of just sticking his hands up like he was calling time, you’re taught to point either fair or foul and give a more definitive signal with your hands/arms.
Edit: Since so many people want to “gotcha!” me on this, I’m not saying he should have said “fair ball”. I’m saying he should have said “foul”. You say foul on that call. I’m aware you don’t vocalize the word “fair”.
If blue says “foul” the confusion is minimized a bit. He still shouldn’t be holding his hands up, he should be pointing to the foul side of the baseline.
Never yell fair. Just point.
yep
This should have been overturned. Third base umps call, he called foul, and the defense reacted accordingly. The LL rule book specifically calls this a dead ball.
Little League Rules Interpretation Manual covers this: "If a batted ball is inadvertently called "foul" and it touches the ground in live ball territory it is irrevocably foul and the ball is dead." (Instructor Comments, page 34). "Irrevocably foul" was revoked this play.
This is correct. Since when is a called foul ball reviewable???
@@jedlink136 Since they thought they can revoke the unrevokable.
@@ingiford175 You keep typing this, but the batted ball was inadvertently called "fair" and it touched down in foul ball territory.
THE BOTTOM LINE IS THIS: Once the third base umpire’s hands go up in the air to signal foul ball, the defense gives up on the play. Because of this signal by the umpire, the winning run scores all the way from first which is unlikely to happen if the defense is hustling. The team from Oregon that lost will never see Williamsport and won’t forget that they were screwed over as kids for the rest of their lives. Trust me.
Good. They will get screwed over repeatedly as adults too. Might as well learn it now.
The only kid I feel bad for is the one who screwed up the catch fo the home run. He could have prevented all of this from happening.
I trust you. You're right.
I don’t know you, but I trust you. You seem like a trustworthy person, for some reason.
@@B3Band sorry you lost in little league bro
joe is correct,where in normal circumstances the runner on first at best would be at third base !!!!!!!!!!!! it was a fair ball and it should be second and third !!!!!!!!!!!!!! the most mistakes an umpire will make would be at third base because there is NOT AS MUCH ACTION compared to first base second base and home plate !!!!!!!!!!! although in little league where you have 2 different opinions from 2 umpires it is rules a foul ball I THINK !!!!!! the bottom lien is that if that lefty pitcher fielded the ball cleanly from 2 batters ago oregon would still be playing !!!!!!!!!!
There is a specific rule about this exact play in the little league handbook. If there are 2 calls made on the play saying fair or foul, it is automatically a foul ball and the play is dead. I don't understand how little league messed up their own rules.
I don't understand how this got past the review
The coach may not have protested that part? But umpires on the field should have ruled foul due to 3b umpire calling foul. that's not reversible AND the defense stopped. No reason to assume the runner scores from 1st if they didn't stop playing due to the foul call.
Looks to me like the 3B ump just decided to completely bitch out and concede to the home plate ump's call and as the other comment said the coach very well may not have noticed the timid "Foul" call by the 3B ump and just never protested that part. Once the coach wasn't even trying to protest that, the umps were probly like "whew he didn't notice that part...let's just move on to the review"
Exactly. There is a rule and they didn’t follow it.
Right? The league should ban all of the umpires and officials involved from being involved again. It's just not fair to the kids. I don't care if they are volunteers, they are completely ignorant of the rules on one of the highest stages, that's not acceptable.
It’s insane to me that these kids play all year without reviewing calls and then get to review calls during this event
From the little league instructor’s manual:
“If a batted ball is inadvertently called "foul", and it touches the ground in live ball territory it is irrevocably foul and the ball is dead. However, if a batted ball is in flight when it is prematurely ruled foul, it remains live as it could still be caught for an out and the ball will remain live and in play.”
Common sense tells you if any ump calls it foul, you can’t continue the play. I mean come on guys.
The ball hit the ground immediately after it was hit
Agreed, even if the foul gesture was inadvertent, you can't allow the play to continue after deceiving the fielders.
@@iqXims But the 3b ump waited until the ball passes 3b before he called it foul - ruling it foul and the play dead. Right?
@@truegret7778 correct. I'm not sure how the ball was ruled fair, when 3B umpire signals foul. As the OP said, even IF the ball was FAIR, when the umpire signals FOUL, the ball and entire play is dead.
Whether the ball was fair or not.
It makes no sense how they ruled this fair, personally feel like those kids were robbed.
Yeah they still might have lost but they completely took away their opportunity to complete the game fairly.
Bad call, should have been overruled.
@Brooke Wilcox - I am surprised, even "little league" none of the coaches seem to have made that point or recited this rule. And am especially surprised (again, even little league and the umps being "volunteers") the umps did not know of it - seems that that is potentially a frequent situation. Hopefully lessons learned at all levels.
Terribly unfair. My sympathies go out to Oregon!
especially after seeing how poorly Washington performed in the LLWS... not meant to be a jab at kids (not Washington's fault what happened) but I can imagine what the Oregon team players might have felt
Having attended 7 umpire training schools in the US, this was one of the most horrible umpiring decisions I have ever seen at any level -especially because the 3rd base umpire KNEW he declared a foul ball and did not own it (assuming the review did not show what we all saw in the video). There can be up to 6 umpires in any game and if EVEN ONE of them raises his hands AT ANY TIME... ( he does not even need to call "foul" vocally), and the ball is dead; which explains why the left fielder did not pursue the play. There was no excuse for what happened here.
Also, these umpires are not "volunteers". They are paid, albeit nominally; and they are selected based upon their prior performance, their experience and all are completely aware of the rule.
$25/ game. That's meal money. It's part of the expenses for travelling once Regionals-level tournaments get underway That's not being "paid." Just just the league paying for their own expenses. These guys are volunteers, plain and simple. And this is one of the lowest possible levels of play in baseball.
They're also human. Even MLB umpires make mistakes. So you can sit down and stfu.
@@Nihilianth they make a lot more than $25 a game.
They pay $50 for minors, $100 for majors in local little leagues. And these are little league major World Series. I’m sure it’s at latest $100-$150 per ump.
Not saying it’s a lot. But they still got to make the right call, or stand up for there call. 3rd base up called foul. It was his call.
@@Nihilianth holy crap batman! Anger issues much? Relax tiger!
@@larryandrews696 Me? Wait. You're talking to ME!? Gtfo, I'm not the one bitching about VOLUNTEER umpires who are humans working a low-level sports league that can make mistakes, and crying about!
You can sit down and stfu as well, boy.
@@nathanrobertson3349 False. It's per diem. It's $25-$50. High school umps will make $100+.
This is literally meal money. It isn't "pay.' It's the league paying it's own expenses, that requires humans to work their schedules games, and humans require food. Kind of like the league will help the city taxpayers pay the electric bill for the lights. Or a landscaper employinf a grounds crew to care for the grounds. Most of whom themselves are also volunteers.
Again, the entire point is that it's a non-profit CHILDREN'S league. Nobody making money off of this thing. It's for the kids to grow up, learn a sport, learn about teamwork, sportsmanship, etc. It's not a money-making business full of professionals.
One reason why people were upset after the review was the rule is that a foul ball call over rules the fair ball call so regardless it should have been foul according to their rules
100%
You get what you pay for lol. And don't let it come down to that point.
@@UnknownUnknown-tu3be yea true and who knows if that would have made a difference in the game but I've had plenty of heartbreakers and bad calls so when you put both together it just makes everything feel worse
9.04 - (c) If different decisions should be made on one play by different umpires, the umpire-in-chief shall call all the umpires into consultation, with no manager or player present. After consultation, the umpire-in-chief shall determine which decision shall prevail, based on which umpire was in the best position and which decision was most likely correct. Play shall proceed as if only the final decision had been made.
In the case of International Tournament Games Williamsport has the final word. The review from Williamsport on the video review was fair ball.
@@brentsmithline3423 that is very true and how it should go within the umpiring crew and everyone and at least they did the right thing and did the review and it confirmed it
The fact that they reviewed it and still got it wrong is what's ridiculous.
Do you even watch Major League ball? Those guys get paid, get it wrong, then they send it to professional video watchers in NY, and then they still get it wrong
@@XQUEZZYX Little League has a specific rule about this exact situation when one ump signals fair and the other calls foul. They should have just enforced their own rule. That's the grounds to overturn it, not where the ball landed by watching replay
@@matthewdejesu2115 so that makes it ok?
I would have overturned it based on the fact that's it's the 3rd base umpires call and he called it foul. When he did that, the defense stopped playing the ball.
I guess you could say it’s inconclusive but shouldn’t they at least make the runner go back to third?
The 1st baseman's stretch and grab at 1:24 was pretty excellent.
ayo i JUST SAID THAT LMAO
"ayo that first basemen 😮👏"
one league i played in the best team had a 1st basemen who did the SPLITZ for fun lmao
A Vietnam war combat veteran once told me, "Never volunteer". Words of wisdom
That's why every umpire who has any brains has transitioned to club ball. We get paid more than minimum wage most of the time, and get free hotels and travel money to go on trips. I've been asked to go to Vegas a few times to umpire and have gotten everything paid for and have come back with about $500 each time
You get that the circumstances are probably different, yeah?
This is supposed to be the 3b umpires call. Even if he doesn't have the best look, HP ump should NOT make a call here. Goes against standard umpire mechanics. And when the 3b ump called foul, he was so timid. You have to come up big and kill it, its your call.
it's always the 3b ump's call on that one. Some people think it's the home plate umpire's call. Like no way lol
I thought it was always the home plate ump's call on on fair/foul calls before the ball crosses the bag?
@@josephmorneau4339 Yes. thats if it stops or is touched prior to passing the bag. Once it breaks the 'glass pane' (front part of the bag) it becomes U3's call.
To piggy back off this, I umpired the Canadian Little league nationals nearly a decade ago, and didn't know 4 man ump who had the foul call and called a fair ball that the base umpire yelled foul. We met as umps, the base ump said it was his call, I said my bad, and the foul call was upheld. This call should have 100% been foul on the play. There is no verbal call if it is fair, however the umpire will yell loudly foul if it is out of play. The replay looks like the ump didn't verbally call it, so maybe he got crossed, or he didn't have the stones to overrule the plate ump.
Yeah, I'm certainly no baseball rules expert, but it would seem common sense that if 2 umps ever disagree on a live call that the preference should go to the ump who is closer to the play which would have been the 3b umpire.
As an umpire for 5+ years, this is such a disaster.
1) The ball went past the bag, so the HP ump should have nothing to do with this. That’s the 3B ump’s call.
2) Umpires are explicitly taught to NEVER yell “Fair” for a fair ball. It can too easily be confused for “Foul.” If it’s fair, you simply point into fair territory. If it’s foul, throw your hands up and yell “Foul.”
So many things that went wrong here.
you are 100% correct
They only have 3 umpires in little league world series so sometimes the 3rd base ump will need to go towards 2nd base. in a 3 persion umpire crew, fair foul is always done by the home plate umpire has he s the only one to guarantee see it.
You can yell "foul" but not "fair? Fair can be confused with foul but foul can't be confused for fair? It makes more sense that hand gestures would be the way to go. Either way, the 3B ump should have taken charge and shut the 3 base coach down. His theatrics franticly waiving the runner home won Washington the game.
This was a 4 man crew. Even if it wasn’t, if the 3rd base umpire is in position D (behind 3rd base) it’s still his call if the ball goes beyond the base.
@@oj1979 you’re wrong dude
Wow, that hurts. It makes me think back in life to times I missed opportunities based on incorrect information that someone else gave me.
@A Mess of Things I hear that, my friend. I'm a world-class researcher, and it's impossible to conclude anything other than that most people make most of their major, life altering decisions, with everything from poor to absurd information. It's the saddest thing. We just chuck the next generation into the world and let them, too, find it out all out far, far too late.
This happened to my boy's game as well. I feel that once the hands go up and we all know that means foul..... they should own it. To lose like that is so unfair to everyone that committed so much time to these boys. I will be honest and say as a coach I don't want to take the win like that either. My parents hate me when I play by the rules. At the end of the day I want to teach my boys the rules and play fair.
Little League Rules Interpretation Manual covers this: "If a batted ball is inadvertently called "foul" and it touches the ground in live ball territory it is irrevocably foul and the ball is dead." (Instructor Comments, page 34). "Irrevocably foul" was revoked this play.
Thank you for actually being a good coach. Sportsmanship and respect for the rules and others is the most important lesson to be learned in youth sports. So many parents just want to try to live out another high school baseball career through their kids and it is beyond sad.
@@ingiford175 You keep typing this, but the batted ball was inadvertently called "fair" and it touched down in foul ball territory.
Glad you pointed that out at 3:00, because my initial impression was that was a kind of scummy thing for the coaches to do. Him not seeing the foul ball call makes a lot more sense.
Hardly scummy. It would have been dumb if he knew the ump called it foul, because the umps would have just told the base runners to go back, and now your runners are gassed for no reason.
@@crusherven They're 12, they don't get gassed.
Was he looking away on purpose tho??
On your umpire note, the selection process for choosing LLWS umpires is actually incredibly rigorous and there are a lot of guys who commit themselves to umpiring Little League for years and don't make it to the LLWS. That being said, this was a fucking fiasco.
@David Gillespie, well said. I've also seen horrible balls and strikes calls in the other regionals. In one game, a called strike three was on the far side of the opposite batters' box. Yes, they're volunteers, but that doesn't excuse calls like the Washington/Oregon game. And for LL Baseball to contradict a written rule is an abomination.
There’s a tremendous amount of nepotism and exclusion in the ranks of LLI umpires. The same guys do it and wear it as a badge of honor completely irrespective of their competence as an umpire.
The umpire I had when I was a kid almost 20 years ago is still going. To this day one of the best umps I've seen across all divisions. It blows my mind that he's never even been to a state tournament, but thats just how it goes I guess.
I heard years ago if an individual wanted to umpire in San Bernardino, Ca sectional games they would need to work on the grounds crew for a few years make friends with the umpire in chief. this is their selection process .
@@SteveHartz so, like umpiring at all levels
Sad that the efforts of everyone involved in this are delegitimized because the umpires don't know the rules and even the review/organization is either too proud, lazy, and/or dumb to not check their own rule and overturn an incorrect call. 0% of honest people would let this call stand after spending ~2 minutes learning the rule and comparing the situation.
I watched this live with my dad, after they made that call I said "there's gonna be a Jomboy breakdown in like 20 minutes"
Ultimately, it shouldn't matter whether the ball was fair or foul, once the the umpire behind third base signaled foul, it's a dead ball.
Correct and you definitely can't allow the run to count that's just crazy
@@RobertJones-bm2bq yup it either should’ve been runners at 1st and 2nd or at the very least runners at 2nd and 3rd
We NEED a breakdown of Mariners vs Angels top of the 9th inning last night.
Awful play by the angels defense smh
Idk what you're talking about, but I want another breakdown, so yes.
what happened?
It’s easy to look up, don’t be lazy.
@@TheyDontKnowYouExist angels had like 3 errors ssmh
This is a text-book life lesson, sometimes it just doesn't go your way...
That “Chins in the air Washington on 3” gave me flash backs to little league after a loss😂💀
If any official blows or calls a play dead, the whole play is dead. Even if they did eventually rule it fair with replay, runners should have been stopped or given the base they were on their way to. If the umpires are volunteers, then there should have been a rules analyst for the tournament in case they needed them. Idk if there is a specific rule to calling a play dead but I'm sure there had to be something that at the very least doesn't let the runner score. The run scoring is my biggest issue. They would've still had a chance
Plus it's a regional championship, not some random game in June or a house league game.
If going to hire a rules analyst to be at the game why not professional umpires instead of volunteers?
They’re not volunteers exactly, I mean they get paid but they’re probably highly looked at
@@tendyedits1272 They are totally volunteers at that level. Their flight and hotel is covered, even food, but otherwise volunteers.
@@johnlafleur5622 I promise you are they aren’t....
they get on out a schedule, they get paid for the games. That’s not volunteering... been officiating 5 years, yes we volunteer our time, but we still get paid.
Our flights and hotels are covered year round, we still get paid for the games.
Called Foul = Is Foul. Little league or no, you write a formal appeal if you're Oregon here, regardless of the fact that it's not going to get you anything.
Oregon did write a formal appeal,and apparently LL International said the equivalent of "we fucked up, and you still lost. Sorry"
And the lost the appeal because the reality in this case it wasn't called foul ultimately. Rule 2.00 instructor's comment "If a batted ball is inadvertently called “foul”, and it touches the ground in live ball territory it is irrevocably foul and the ball is dead." is overruled because you had a fair ball called on the field as well by pu. Persuant to 9.04 (c) "If different decisions should be made on one play by different umpires, the umpire-in-chief shall call all the umpires into consultation, with no manager or player present. After consultation, the umpire-in-chief shall determine which decision shall prevail, based on which umpire was in the best position and which decision was most likely correct. Play shall proceed as if only the final decision had been made." In this case they got together and decided that fair was correct call and that was upheld on review.
Sucks that this happened with conflicting calls but the rules were applied correctly for what happened and the correct call made.
@@duelist301 that's a terrible PU then. How are you on that big of a power trip to overule someone else's call? I mean any common sense says if you make someone else's call on accident, and you have different calls, whoevers call it should have been is the one to go with. Plus the 3B umpire was absolutely terrible letting the play go. You call it dead the ball is dead. Someone on another thread posted that rule, but it's a basic rule in any form of baseball. So glad for club ball, and JBO so I never have to see little league in NW Oregon.
@@rileyesmay It doesn't have to be a power trip at all. 99% of the time with LL it's a one or two man crew meaning that the plate pu is the one making that call in any other case. So it's easy to see and say his instincts took over. And common sense says that you should want to get the call right.
@@duelist301 well, if thats true, which I still question, then they still screwed up because it was NOT the plate umpires call. At worse, get together, and realize the calling umpire(3B) called it foul. The most believable and fair thing to do at that point was to live with the "foul" call and play on. Nobody wouldve questioned it
The umps screwed that call. Once the 3B ump raised his hands to signal fowl ball, the defense didn't try to make a play. Sad to see it end on umpire error.
Little League Rules Interpretation Manual covers this: "If a batted ball is inadvertently called "foul" and it touches the ground in live ball territory it is irrevocably foul and the ball is dead." (Instructor Comments, page 34). "Irrevocably foul" was revoked this play.
At first, I knew this was going to hurt, as I am an Oregon native. Then I saw that their jerseys said “Bend North”. I live in Tumalo, which is on the north side of Bend and I don’t know this team but I felt that
...umpires should have called dead ball and reset, that simple, but the explanation confused me, the ball hit the dirt near home fair, the line is in, then on the first bounce went four but that does not matter. Had the ball not taken the first bounce fair, then any ball past the third base that lands foul once past the base is foul, that bounce the third base ump called foul is then a foul. The commentator said the ball can curve around third and still be fair? I don't think so if it first lands in foul territory. But maybe some off LL rule, but not when I coached....
@@wokewokerman5280
Jomboy was thinking/looking for ways how the home plate "might possibly have being correct".
What he was wondering is:
- If the ball first hit the chalk line ('still' fair - but still undecided because it depends on how the ball travels after that)
- Bounce into fair while in mid-air,
- Spins/curves while in mid-air,
- Passes over 3B in fair,
- Curves outward towards foul, and therefore lands foul PAST the 3B bag...
in such a unique set of circumstances, then yes that batted ball would have being fair.
Even Jomboy thought this was an extremely unlikely set of circumstances. And we don't have the correct camera angle to see that.
Most likely what happened was:
- Batted ball hits the chalk,
- Bounces in a straight line towards the foul side of 3B,
- So at the time of "crossing 3B bag", the ball was already on foul side. Foul ball.
I was commenting under another thread, that under 8.02(a) "Any umpire's decision which involves judgement, such as but not limited to, whether a batted ball is fair or foul... is final. No player, manager, coach or substitute shall object to any such judgement decisions."
(In other words, this 'fair or foul' was not open to appeal.)
If there is a conflicting fair/foul call, technically that needs a consultation (amongst the umpires); that's not an appeal.
And since in situations of such conflicting call, the 1B/3B umpire would be in a better location than the umpire-in-chief, such call usually just follows what the 1B/3B umpire says, without needing all umpires to physically get into a huddle.
How this even went to the point of 'appeal' is bogus. 3B umpire called it foul, so foul it is.
@@reallifeengineer7214 you said "- Curves outward towards foul, and therefore lands foul PAST the 3B bag...
in such a unique set of circumstances, then yes that batted ball would have being fair." Never in any game I've seen! I've seen pros hit with so much spin the ball was yards fair over the bag but then curved into the stands - and you say that's fair! The ball in air has to hit inside the line past the bag.
@@wokewokerman5280
You can look into the following situation:
Batted ball, while in air, is still in fair territory as it went past 3B.
After passing 3B, while still in air, turns into foul territory and passes the foul line. When it lands, it landed in foul territory.
This is a different situation from:
A batted ball, immediately after leaving the bat/contact, is on the foul territory while in-air.
The difference is:
At the time when the ball crosses 3B, was it in the fair side or foul side - this determines foul or fair.
What the ball does AFTER it passes 3B, becomes irrelevant.
Yes we all watched lots of MLB games where a major hit flies into the stands in the “foul / outfield”. Those balls were already foul before crossing 1B or 3B.
I admit this is an area I was super confused about for several years. Had to check with son’s team coach several times, lookup the OBR several times…
@@reallifeengineer7214 ...yes, and I always enjoyed the situation when one of my players on a short ball rolling down the line was too late for the play so then watched the ball roll until it hit a stone or foot depression then tumbled over the line fowl! And the ump would then yell "FOUL ball" and the relief on the fielders face was precious!
I played in the Little League World Series twice when I was a kid. It is hard to get there and I can’t imagine having been denied because of something this stupid. Really sucks for the kids.
No you didn't. . stop trying to get likes
@@jamedlock83 Are you flirting with me?
I remember that
Well that's life
I played in like 20 Little League World Series when I was a kid.
Since it landed in foul territory after the bag, it would only be fair for having crossed the bag in flight if it first hit in fair territory ahead of the bag. The signal from the 3rd base ump kills the play dead, even if he didn’t say foul.
Yeah that’s what I was thinking, but at the same time, certainly Jomboy realizes that, right? You’ll see a bunch of foul balls every game where a dude will pull a fly, ball into the seats down the rf/lf line cause he’s out in front. A bunch of those will be hooking, so they’ll pass the base in fair territory, but they’re still foul
Great perspective. Best of luck to both teams in the future.
I’ve been waiting for you to get ahold of this one.
Terrible ending, justice for oregon
No justice, Go Washington!!!
I think you got it mixed. Oregon was the team who won. Justice for Washington?
Edit: I got it mixed up. Other way around, my bad.
@@professortree9387 no washington won title is incorrect
Correct, Washington lost via error by umpires.
Edit: correction Washington won
@@America-First2024 Washington won the game and will be going to the LLWS…
It’s Washington who won not Oregon the title says Oregon
Washington lost
It's confusing because the losing team chants "Washington" in the last huddle before shaking hands, so I think they chanted the other team's name out of respect? idk lol
@jomboy you gotta fix your title dude! Bend is in Oregon and they lost
yeah washington won, i think it’s a sportsmanship thing. you see a ton of that in little league. cheer them on throughout williamsport i guess
@@darshannautiyal92 Obviously it was Washington who won. They're the home team and scored with a walkoff
You gotta have confidence as an umpire..... even if you're completely wrong.
Great one here !
Man this is sad, a blown call potentially kept these kids from going to LLWS
But it let another team go, so that is good. 😍
@@Mike-cu5ih no lol.
@@pfanzers actually, yes 👍
@@Mike-cu5ih actually, no, we'll never know which team truly deserved to go on to the Little League world series.
@@1Outis1 Agreed. But a team is going, so that is good. And there can be no debate.
Baseball is great. And there can be no debate.
how the hell can you let a game END like that? ump called it foul. defense stopped playing...
Because that Ump's idol...
Joe West.
been waiting for this one
I've been waiting to see a video on this
This made me cry for some reason. Poor kids. So brutal to end it this way.
Lol brutal way to lose. So weird if you have contradicting calls like this if you're the kid in the outfield and you see 3B ump call foul you're supposed to also look home and make sure he has the same call?? Who knows if he saw the home plate ump's call he might have made a throw home to get the out or at least stop the play.
but doesnt matter cause it was a foul ball. the ump at home plate was wrong, zero video evidence to support it too. terrible job LLWS
Incorrect Sir. In a 4 man umpire crew, the 3rd base umpire has any ball over the bag fair/foul call. Home plate umpire has any ball up to 3rd base.
Now I know why I watched you it’s because you take the time to break it down good job I see things differently now Thank you for that
Spot to Williamsport on the line. Unacceptable stuff right here. I Played In the llws for Cali back in 2013
Sad when Home plate umpire says it’s fair but 3rd base umpire calls it’s foul. Obvious Oregon players all stopped because 3rd base ump called it foul. Oregon got screwed!
Yup and it's in the rulebook nothing can happen after dead ball. I'm equally disappointed in the review system calling the run in because it was solely their judgement the kid would have scored without a doubt. I don't personally think he could have for sure based on when the ball was foul and the kid was probably one step off first base. I think most of us would hsve said 3rd base would have been for sure. That is given they even looked at/knew the rule that the ball is automatically dead if an umpire calls it dead
Not only do these kids not necessarily go on in baseball, but sometimes they end up excelling in other sports. Chris Drury was on the Little League World Series champion team in 1989, went on to be the 1999 Calder Memorial Trophy winner (that’s NHL’s Rookie of the Year), key clutch player for the 2001 Stanley Cup champion Colorado Avalanche, and is currently the GM of the New York Rangers, the team for whom he was captain as a player later in his career.
TBH, sports success is FAR MORE OFTEN decided by when you mature and nothing else. If you mature early, you'll likely be good at sports (Because you're bigger/faster/stronger than anybody else long before talent really comes into play) so long as you're decently coordinated.
@@reeepingk And also your birthdate. If you are born in January, you are far more likely to make it in hockey than if you are born in December
@@connorwelcher For likely the same reasons. Skill really doesn't come into play until probably late high school. It's only then that the smaller, more skilled kids can shine. Although that's rare because if they were smaller to begin with they likely weren't trained in sports as much. I find it funny when parents push their kids SO HARD at the age of freaking like... 8. Chill out people, he hasn't even hit maturity yet.
I watched this live and while it was a fair ball, the 3rd base ump signaled foul and it is his call not the home plate umpires. Bend North got screwed. Similar thing happened a few years ago to an Idaho baseball team in the LLWS
To me it doesn’t matter who has the call, the 3B umpire called it foul, and by doing so, created an unfair disadvantage to the defense.
This was such an easy thing to correct and go with the proper 3B umpire call. This was terrible on all levels.
i used to play on oregon's llws team before going into 8th grade, and i've been following oregon's llws team for a while after that so seeing them lose like this is horrible.
Doesn't take much to make it. PDX has JBO so a lot of us don't even play LL in Oregon
On the bright side, if any of these kids makes it big, they will already have had a taste of what's to come with major league umpiring.
Good analysis... As you briefly mentioned something about a curveball.. (ball could have had some crazy spin to curve it in the air after first contact with the ground...)
As many have indicated, this is the 3rd base umpire's call. Any ball that goes over the bag as a possible fair/foul call is the responsibility of the field umpire. A foul ball merely would have reset the play and not have affected the outcome so profoundly. This is a very poor reflection on the league.
Should've gone the cricket route on this, "We have no idea what to call so we're gonna check it." If they had called it foul it would've stayed foul, I hate calls like this.
According to what others have posted for rules, it looks like the PU was on a power trip and potentially on purpose called it fair, than when they got together overuled the calling officials call(3B umpire had the call for this) and resulted in him making a call he shouldn't have. Absolutely terrible. So glad for club ball and not having this garbage
they did call it foul
Yeah, that's the 3B Umpire's call, and he called Foul. No idea why HP Umpire called Fair and absolutely no idea how that train wreck stood once reviewed.
As hard as it is to swallow, this will be a life lesson. Life is not always fair and the truth does not always win out. Kudos for what they did to get that far.
They should have a old man as a bat boy. A reverse MLB thing.
I vote for dog.
The batman
the issue was the fielders were reacting to the 3rd base umpire who literally can see the ball vs.the home plate umpire who is further away. That was such a 50/50 call as the ball sails right on the chalk over 3rd base. Bravo to my local team, Bend North.
Sucks to live in Bend and have LL. JBO is way better in PDX area! It's actual high school baseball rules unlike LL modified and paid umpires so we get a lot of high school umpires who know their stuff doing youth games. Either way a lot of the kids are doing club ball since its more competative and MLB rules. I've got to umpire some of the bend AIA and CO Crush teams and they are really good. Had a club team in Salem this year where a kid hit a home run over a 330ft fence, statcast would have it at 350ft+ home run. That's far enough to go out in a big leage park! You don't see that in local leagues anymore!
Heartbreaking for the kids!
Oregon kids should be proud they made it on Jomboy
It's so cool to see you covering this. That's my cousin who hit the home run in the beginning. I've been following him the whole way and can't way to see him at Williamsport.
Also the Oregon team was in the elimination side of the bracket so I think there would've been a second game if WA lost but correct me if I'm wrong
No second game. This was the championship game. Winner goes on to Williamsport. It's unfortunate that this game ended the way it did, it's going to be talked about for some time...until another controversial event happens. Probably at the LLWS.
i think volunteer umps are great for youth sports, but they shouldn’t be umping an espn game
They aren’t
Typically, the Williamsport regional LLWS umpires are High School umpires. So, they are certified. They are volunteering here, but they aren't just guys off the street
@@nickkeene6827 feel robbed? Bro it’s the LLWS. They don’t make money or fame from it, it’s a kids game and umpiring mistakes have been made from the day it started in 1876. Like the comment above me, these are legit umpires for schools in the nation MLB isn’t going to send their finest to the fucking LLWS.
I think the real issue us that youth sports shouldn't be televised on espn
@@nickkeene6827 Little League will never use paid umpires for this level because they would go against the mission of the organization. That said, this play was not the only play in this game and to say the umpires cost anyone the game is just not correct. That ball is ruled fair. We don't have a view down the line. The Base Umpire is not primary on this call, it is the Plate Umpire's call on whether a bounding ball goes directly over the bag. So, the mistake is not ruling it fair. The mistake was the incorrect signal by the 3rd base umpire.
LOL 5:40 it's so true. I ump'd as a teenager and they just told us to make calls with confidence even if we weren't sure.
Although this was a mess, remember that nobody on the field (including the umps themselves) is really accustomed to having a 4-ump crew. Most little league games probably only have a home plate ump (or maybe an infield ump who switches between 1st and 2nd base). So the home plate ump is used to making that call himself, and the 3rd base coach is used to looking at the home ump for every fair/foul call down the 3rd base line.
That's very true.
and you forgot that theyre "volunteers" lol
This was ridiculous how can you end a game this way with these stakes. I feel horrible for the Oregon kids and also for the umpires in this situation.
don't feel bad for the umpires. They're the ones who messed it up big time
@@davidriedy5977 they’re volunteers
@@logansarsland1766 They get paid.
@@logansarsland1766 they're volunteers in the sense that they don't get paid to umpire these specific regional games. But they don't get these regional games unless they have years and years of trained experience. They umpire other rec, travel, and high school leagues, and they get paid. So yeah, they fucked up. They should have known better. They're volunteers and don't get paid, but they have plenty of umpiring experience. They aren't just random people taken off the street with zero experience
Umps aren't supposed to yell fair, they are just supposed to point. If it's foul though, they will yell it. The words can be hard to distinguish in the moment and you specifically want to avoid this situation.
Props to the Oregon coach showing some class.
That play off the pitchers glove with That scoop at 1, wow
This was an easy fix.
3bag ruled it foul. So it's foul. He then decided "I guess I'll just go with the flow of the play and not say that it was foul" those kids got robbed
I think when he saw the plate ump point fair, he may have thought he screwed up and made a call that wasnt his.............when in fact it was his call to make. Williamsport shouldve known whos call it should be and lived with that . Foul Ball
@@mptr1783 it doesn’t matter , that’s NOT the home plate umpires call. it was the third base umpires call.
@@aaronaguilar9172 yes, I know that. I said that the 3B ump may have thought it wasnt his call to make and dropped his arms when he saw the plate ump rule fair. Got it?
Their manager should have refused the decision, filed a formal protest, and gotten lawyers involved. Show your kids how not to get robbed and go quietly.
A couple things...first, I'll own that I'm an Oregonian and was rooting for the Oregon team. I thought it spelled doom for them in the 4th inning when, with a 1 run lead, they had the bases loaded and no outs and failed to convert a single run. So they only had a 1 run cushion when they should have had more! Then the home run tied it (which was very catchable!). Anyway, on to the play at hand. Jomboy, you barely touched on this, but the real key here is that the 3rd base ump CLEARLY SIGNALS FOUL. At this point, the defense stops playing because the ball is dead. Then, there's another real fishy part...the 3b ump clearly called foul, and yet when they go to review, they are saying that the call on the field was fair? It's like they already have overturned the call on the field, which was foul! It's the 3b umps call and everyone is watching the 3b ump to see what he calls. So the home plate ump overrules the call on the field before it even goes to review. When it was reviewed, the call on the field was likely to stand, because that's the way it is. To overrule the call on the field it basically needs to be clear proof, and there really wasn't clear proof either way here. What a mess!
Yep. My first argument with the umpires would have been that the call on the field should be foul, and if the other coach is asking to review if it is fair, that is one thing.
Perfectly stated, Brad. How did they claim that "the call on the field was fair". THE CALL, is the 3b ump's to make and he signaled foul. THAT should have been "the call on the field" that they would need to overturn.
The home plate umpired overruled the call by the 3rd base umpire and said the ball was fair and the run counted so the initial ruling at that point was technically fair ball, run scored, game over. That's really the only fishy part. Then they went to instant replay to check and see if the ball was fair or foul (replay can't use the 3rd base umpire or any other umps ruling as proof of anything). The umpires determined that there was nothing in the path of the ball that could prove that it's a foul ball, so the call stood.
The review didn't overturn anything, the home plate ump did. The review was just to give the umpire a chance to double check if the ball was fair or not.
It should have been a foul ball based on the fact that the 3rd base umpire ruled such and I've heard rules state that any ump who calls a foul ball makes the ball foul and the play dead, but that would have been a blown call because it was a fair ball.
@@clipcoug1139 The only trouble with that is that in a 4 man umpire crew, "the call on the field", as they referred to it; belongs to the 3rd base umpire. Since the ball traveled beyond the front plane of third base, THE call of fair or foul is the responsibility of the 3rd base ump in position "D". With a 4 man crew the home plate umpire is only responsible for fair or foul up to, but not including the front plane of third base. If the ball had stopped moving or been touched by a player before reaching third base, then the home plate umpire's call would have been the call on the field. It would have been the home plate ump's call if they were playing with a 2 man crew. Since this ball made it out into left field, it became 3b's call. (Umpire manual section 9.7 or 9.6.4) And I think that maybe the coach worded his challenge wrong; I think if he challenged that the 3rd base umpire had called the ball dead, he would have won that challenge. But, since he only challenged whether or not the ball was fair, and there was no evidence to dispute what was somehow determined to have been "the call on the field", I believe he lost that specific challenge.
@@richerwin6397: Yes, I figured it was the 3rd base ump's call after the ball crossed the bag and made it to left field and the home plate ump has everything before that given how many were on the umpire team for the game
I didn't think you can challenge whether or not an umpire called a ball dead or not, not even in Little League where I hear you can challenge basically anything.
I feel so sad for for those kids🥺
Scrolling and glancing at the thumbnail, I thought this was a She-Hulk trailer…
The 3rd base ump screwed a team because he didn't want to admit he screwed up the call lol angel Hernandez would be proud
They may be volunteering for this, but they are certified umps that most likely umpire for High School and maybe even College level baseball. This type of mistake should not have occurred
I'm pretty sure they get paid as well.
They almost never umpire in a 4-man crew; and this is one of the situations where 4-man changes whose call it is.
Bonney lake sumner baby! Never thought the all star team i played for as a kid would be on jomboy! Great to see.
When I was about ten, we had one playoff game that wore us all out. We had no field lights, so on Friday the 7 inning game stretched to 19 innings, with a score of 1-1 as we had to call it a night on account of darkness. We came back on Saturday morning, and both teams were able to score a couple of runs in a couple more innings. I had played about 7 different positions in that game, finishing out the season as catcher. Up 3-2, we had two outs and two strikes on a batter that swung at an outside pitch. I couldn't hold onto it, but it was an easy throw to first to get him out and win the game. Unfortunately, my first baseman was looking directly into the sun as the ball passed between his glove and his head, about ear level. The runner advanced to second, then a base hit by the next batter brought him home for the tying run. The throw didn't make it to me in time, and the batter advanced to second base. The next batter walked, and the winning run advanced to 3rd. The final batter of the playoff hit the ball out into left field and the game was over after 26 innings.
Volunteers. Said it multiple times. I fully understand and accept that mistakes happen. What's unforgivable though - AND THE REASON FOR REVIEWS -
is to ensure those volunteer mistakes DON'T determine a game. Sad for the kids
Good way for these kids to learn that life is going to F you over sometimes and nobody will care and there is nothing you can do about it.
Wow that’s tough as someone who almost went to Williamsport myself out of the east I could t imagine how I would feel to lose like that. I’m glad I can chalk mine up to daddy ball being our teams downfall still sucks but not as bad as that.
Gotta give to the first baseman in the very beginning at 1:26 we made a hell of stretch to try and scope that ball and still managed to keep his fit on the edge of the base
what a disaster this incident was. The call was the 3rd base umpire's to make, not the home plate umpire. By rule, if just one umpire calls "foul," ball is immediately dead
Definitely a foul ball. Honestly idk why in cases like this they don't just nullify the play and resume play as if the play never happened
Bingo. Simple fairness is rarely complicated. Maybe you don't even add a strike, just throw it out. They're kids. Let them play.
It took me forever to click on this breakdown because I feel so bad for these kids and don't want to see them go through it with again
As an Oregonian, I guess I want to thank Jomboy for knowing how to pronounce our states name.
I watched it and couldn't believe that the 3B ump's foul signal was disregarded by everyone except the Oregon players. That's a tough pill to throw down a kid's gullet.
At least one of the opponent's coaches was an opportunist who saw an opening and said to himself, 'Play it out as if the ball ruled foul is fair, then we'll push it with the home plate ump. Even if we can only steal the run one time of a hundred, let's do it.' Repugnant stuff.
Volunteers or not, the home plate umpire should not be over ruling the umpire who was 7 feet from the play when he's over 60 feet away. On top of that debacle you have replay to fix terrible calls and they somehow let it stand. I have witnessed bad before but this is a catastrophic screw up and a reason for doing away with volunteers.
Imo, the HP umpire has a better angle on balls hit down the base line that the 1st/3rd umps unless they're standing on the baseline.
How in the world could you watch that video a miss the 3rd base umpire standing right on the line?
@@Eric-vm2ii - How in the world can you make that comment when he's not standing right on the line at all.
I define "right on the line" as standing on the chalk, which he clearly isn't. He's a couple steps on the foul side of the line. However, I'll grant you that the HP ump isn't exactly on the line either
@ Lee Blake The dude’s left foot is exactly on the line until he takes one step left and back to let the ball clear. His mechanics were perfect until he lets the play continue.
But sure, let’s have the guy that’s over 60 feet away, with a worse angle, and dealing with a mask make the call…
@@Eric-vm2ii - Love to see what video you're watching. The guys foot is never anywhere near the line. When the camera cuts to the 3rd base view at 0:1:35 (which is the first time we see him) he's taking a step TOWARD 3rd base. Literally the closest he ever gets to the line while on camera is immediately AFTER he's signaled foul.
How do these umps not get payed?!?!? WHAT DA
Do a breakdown on Rizzo leaning in!
Oregon was robbed, poor kids
I just wanna say that they need to have these kids play with wooden or different types of bats. The last 10 or so years, there is numerous check swing home runs. It is the technology. There was even a case where a kid got hit with a line drive so fast it nearly killed him a few years ago. The game would be much safer if they had youth style wooden bats, and moved all of baseball away from aluminum and metal composite type bats.
Wooden bats would be FARRRRRRRRR TOO HEAVY for kids. Hell, the aluminum bats of my era were still too heavy for me and I was a big kid who matured early. They use composite (plastic) bats nowadays. What you're complaining about is a 6+ foot young kid who hit a homerun on a way too short field for him. The field and technology are made for the average kid, not the people who matured in 4th grade.
It would price *a holy hell of a lot* of a kids out of playing the game at all.
Isn't the reason for metal bats due to the cost of wooden? They break. If aluminum bats are too fast/powerful, then better to increase the size of the field.
@Michael Sullivan wait a minute. If they’re all the same why the hell are people spending $200 on little league bats?
Little League baseball requires bats to meet the USABat standard, which means the bat has the performance of a wood bat. There used to be a bat arms race with bats performing better and better to the point the speed the ball was leaving the bat was dangerous for the fielders, especially pitchers and corner infielders. The new standards make the bats safer because it has the same affect on the ball as a wood bat.
Jomboy…You Are The Whole Truth! Been watching your good work for years. This exposition made me subscribe. THANKS PAL! Warmly, Jimmy LaRose
Absolutely ridiculous.
Like an inadvertent whistle.
Play stops there no matter the result of the play.
I've seen some crazy spin on the ball do some weird things after hit, but the wind can also affect the curvature mid arc, I'd say it's possible it could've gone back in due to spin, then come back out due to wind or vice versa, but I've got no idea what happened here.
You can see that the ball travels away from the foul line at an angle sharper than the two points it bounced would suggest, so the ball was definitely curving foul. That means it very well could have been a fair ball (Don't really have the angle). All that said, this is all on 3B ump for not committing to foul or fair.
yes, balls spin and curve. I think it might have been fair.
It could have been fair, but it doesn't matter. According to the rules, if an ump calls the play a foul at any point, including raising his arms like that, it's a dead play.
How could they even agree to review this, AT ALL!??
1:14 😂 This is why i watch Jonboy, random little hilarious comments like that
Minor nitpick; the ball landing in foul territory after the bag doesn't matter IF the batted ball touched the ground in fair territory before crossing the bag, or if touched by a fielder in fair territory at any point.
It's a 4-man crew. There is an umpire stationed on each line at the time of the pitch. They have fair\foul from the front edge of the bag and then all the way down the line on ground balls. This is the 3B umpires call yesterday, today, and tomorrow. The PU has no damn business making the call. This is SOP in all levels of baseball when operating with a 4 man crew. Those are standard baseball umpire's mechanics. By rule, the play was dead the moment the 3B umpire raised his arms. That signal means only one thing in baseball: The ball is dead, stop playing. For replay to then uphold the call of the PU who WAS NOT EVEN SUPPOSED TO MAKE THE CALL is typical of LL baseball. What we have here is a total failure of the LL system from the umpires all the way to the replay people being absolutely clueless about the rules. The farce that is known as Little League keeps up it's fine tradition of being a joke.
In my association the PU would have had his rectum turned inside out for making that call and it would be years before he was ever given an assignment of that importance again.
You could determine position based on the ball shadow
Bruh you're funny af 😂 🤣