🚨 MISINFORMATION ALERT! 🚨 The TRUTH and LIES about 50S Batteries
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- Опубликовано: 30 июн 2024
- In this video, I expose the truth and lies about the Samsung 50S batteries that are now being put inside electric unicycles. I dispel the myth and misconceptions that these batteries degrade faster than other battery types used in EUCs, whether they tend to run dangerously hot, and also discuss which type is the best for you.
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Chapters:
00:00 - Prologue
00:44 - 50S Battery Facts
01:42 - Charge Cycle Definition
02:34 - How the Tests were Performed
03:33 - Which Battery Lasts the Longest?
04:18 - Real World Scenarios
05:47 - iT rUnS Hot
06:47 - How to Know if Your Batteries are Degraded
07:08 - Disadvantages of 50S Batteries
08:19 - Why it Matters
08:50 - Conclusion
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Dang it! You spilled the beans. Now everybody will be buying up the 50S's. Thanks man
As a truck driver, I really like the 50S cells because of the broad range of operating temperatures for both charging and discharging. I copied and pasted the following excerpt directly from the EWheels website. I've never known Jason or Eric to post false information, so I'm sure this is true.
Higher Operating Temperatures: the specifications of the 50S has a vast operating range, from -20 to 80°C/-4 to 176°F vs -20-60°C/-4-140°F with the commonly used 50E/GB cell & as high as 100°C/212°F in Samsung’s test data! This massive margin not only allows the 50S to output up to 3x more power than the 50E, but perhaps more importantly, will greatly improve battery pack safety, there is no conceivable scenario in which these limits will ever be reached, or exceeded.
Thank you for this informative video. It really increases my confidence in my decision to wait for the 50S version of the Extreme to hit the shelves this summer.
I'm almost definitely going with 50S on my next EUC, I'm feeling in the stone age almost with my Nikola+
Be aware - the NIk and V-11 have the same batteries and as time goes on, the batteries de-grade and they can explode at anytime. If you store either in the home , you might think twice about that decision. I loved my Nik+ too.
I feel the same way about my 16X. It's a good reliable wheel, but I'm ready for an upgrade. I'm looking at the C Mini or the Begode Extreme.
Thanks for reading (and pointing out) the fine print of how the 50E and 50S were tested and making an easy to understand explanation of the data comparison.
I always get a stupid Christmas morning smile when I see one of your new vids pop up. Thanks for the info!
You just made my day 😀
The 50S FUD was running off the rails. Thanks for saving the community and bringing levity to the space. Back to our scheduled programming
Also, the bigger the battery (Wh) the less you need 50S cells over 50E cells.
A 1480 Wh battery of 50S cells has 1480/18.5 = 80 cells. 80 x 3.7V x 25A = 7400W output.
A 3700 Wh battery of 50E cells has 3700/18.5 = 200 cells. 200 x 3.7V x 10A = 7400W output. (and 2.5x the range)
Both can power a 7400W motor. So we can have high power, light weight, low range EUC, or high power, heavy weight, long range EUC.
I don't think you mentioned that the spec sheet cutoff is 2.5v and EUCs won't let you ride them anywhere close to 2.5v. I think most won't let you ride them anymore around 2.8v. That means that its impossible to even discharge the cells to 0% in an EUC, so even if you tried to do cycles from 100% to 0% you wouldn't be able to, therefore the minimum 250 cycles is impossible to achieve even if you rode all out from 100% until the EUC shut off 250 times in a row.
Good point!
I think most only let you discharge to 3.2V or 3.3V... However, AFAIK the energy amount is not linear, so there wouldn't be that much energy left anyway from 3.2V to 2.5V compared to the risks.
Exactly, so another myth busted about 'it's not a good idea to ride your wheel to 0%'. Well 0% on an EUC is not actually 0% and they are designed to be ridden to 0% on the EUC, which is when the wheel either tiltback so much you can't ride it anymore or just refuse to go.
Great summary and explanation! Thanks
Thank you for busting the myths!
Thank YOU! 😃
Intersting to consider at lower charge. 50s cell at 40% charge will be capable of putting out more amps than 50e.
Technically you can ride harder at lower % and avoid a face plant.
Great review and content. Well done and thank you!
Thank you for busting the myths. So much heresay and propaganda around this battery for no reason.
This is becoming my new favorite EUC channel, keep it up dude!
Thank you so much!
I'am about to buy a Begode T4 PRO 2024 with 50S batteries....
Very needed information !!!
Thank you Sir !
For a 6s pack the difference in output will barely matter. It is the smaller pack wheels that will profit the most from this. Some amazing wheels will become feasible because of this.
I personally hope for a 1/2p 300+v wheel someday... Hopefully the technology gets there where that's actually possible!
Awesome video 👍, I just subbed to your channel. ✌️ Keep it wheel 👍
Thank you so much! 😊
5:17 so the graph shows that for 99% of the time, no more than 40A output was needed, which 4 parallel 50E batteries could have provided.
It's only for the 1% acceleration or steep hill trial that the 50S will make a difference, so its understandable manufacturer say 50S isnt needed.
But if you love doing hard pulls on every start, then feeling the 4x25A output every time should make a difference.
And since breaking is reverse acceleration on an EUC, the maximum breaking power should be higher, which equals safety.
On thirstier high-powered wheels like the EX30, I just checked my DarknessBot trips, and my max amp draws usually range from about 70 to a bit over 100 amps. So even 6x parallel that is over what the continuous discharge is rated for the 50E cells, and I actually just ordered a 50S EX30 because I got a good deal on one (and my ex30 has over 7400 miles on it). The lower discharge on the 50E is what makes me nervous when I accelerate fast and ride below 60% battery so having 50S will give me a bit more piece of mind when I'm wanting to push myself and riding on the streets.
@@pavelk.3367 I see that is certainly thirstier. And yea I guess we wouldnt even be having this discussion if voltage sag and cutoff accidents werent a thing.
Now why dont they just do more cells in parallel ? Like 10P or 20P. Then they could use the cheaper cells.
Cells in parallel keep the same Voltage as one cell but adds the Amp together, while cells in series keep the same Amp as one cell but adds the Voltage together.
So is there a reason a 100V 50A battery pack works better than say a 50V 100A in an EUC ? Both would output the same 5000W.
- Nevermind I realize now that 100 cells in a parallel and 100 cells in a series will have the same W output. Better to use the layout that is the easiest to build. The only thing that really matters for W output is the number and quality of the cells.
HOWEVER - this also means that we need to STOP being all "ooh" and "wow" about seeing higher and higher Voltage numbers. You could have a 200V EUC with only 2000W output. The only thing worth being "wow" about is higher total W output of the battery, and W of the motor. Unfortunately spec sheets keeps showing the V of the battery and not the total W output :(
But fortunately, with the use of 50S cells, which has a peak output of 35-45A, the overhead room becomes great. 4x20 cells at 3.7V (50% used) and 35A = 10360W output from a 1480Wh battery. Double the battery to 2960Wh and it could power a 20kW motor. If there's 50S cells in there, you dont need to worry about battery W output, and you can focus on range and motor power.
- One thing that has been bothering me is heat. In parallel every cell is discharged by itself. But in a series of say 24 cells in a row, the cells become like one long tube of cells with their Amp flowing through the tube, and at the end of the tube the outer cell has to deal with all the Amp coming through from the 23 other cells, which on a first glance seem like it would lead to 24x more heat generated than if that cell was alone. But apparently heat doesnt work that way with Voltage and Amperage and it's not an issue.
Electric cars like Tesla use about 100 cells in a line to reach 400V, and those cells dont explode, so yeah. Weird.
I have ordered 140 s50 to my bilde
Oh ok, thats info i should try to obtain for my V2 master, i also hear field weakening might also be a thing now even for older begode wheels?
That's a good question, I think the answer is no. But to be sure, I would ask your vendor and they will be able to give a more definitive answer 🙂
Please advise what is the source of these discharge tests.
Everything is fine with 50s...Paso should go to back to school.
Solid Vid
Ok let tell manufacture to lower their EUC prices since they put high price on 50s batteries . Real man talk 😂😂
Your knowledge is second to none, thanks for the indepth info
Doesn't the controller tuning kind of define how hard the draw and push is from the batteries. Unless they release new tuning software for the controllers does it make sense I wonder?
Thanks thanks and thanks. Im a battery maker and are month im telling the same. TOTALLY CORRECT
Glad you say that! 😀 Sometimes I worry that I accidentally get some of my facts wrong when presenting info, and I have to issue a correction later on 😅
What are the test methods that are used to generate these reports?
They are done in a lab setting by the manufacturer
@@WheelGoodTime is there a standard ASTM method used? I'd like to understand the parameters of the testing used. For example that amp-hr vs life cycle chart shows the delta of the S vs GB both lost 0.5amp-hr over the life cycle. The start/end amp-hr is not the same for the all the batteries but the delta is showing that the batteries had the same amount of degradation and not that the 50S is a better "performer".
So lets say worst case scenario 250 charge cycles, and you get about 100 km per cycle, so 25000 km, then you buy new battery packs for probably about $2500, that means you pay about $1 per 10 km.
On one hand that's super expensive almost gasoline powered car price per km. On the other hand that's reasonable considering how slow you go and how much fun time you get.
Luckily that wont be the case and with 80% capacity after 500 charge cycles, 60% after 1000 cycles (100.000 km), then $2500 for battery packs, means $1 per 40 km, or $2.5 per charge cycle.
I don’t think it will cost near that much to replace the batteries…
@@eucberserker9049 Depends on how big the battery is. And if you're in US or EU. Finding a battery to buy may be the bigger problem.
Looked around a bit and found a Sherman battery pack for about $1200. Need two, so $2400 for both sides.
Ewheels doesnt have many model batteries in stock. There's S18 pack for $930 per side, so $1860 for a 1800wh battery. Insane. They have V11 for $500 per side, so $1000 total. They have V12 for $620 per side, so $1240 total. V14 for $350 per pack. Need four, so $1400 total. Cant find Lynx battery.
For some forsaken reason prices on european stores are insane. €900 for one V12 pack, €1800 total. Just buy a new V12 for €2000 instead.
Inmotion-store has V13 pack for €2939. Prices are just too high at €1 per Wh.
@@eucberserker9049 Depends on how big the battery is. And if you're in US or EU. Finding a battery to buy may be the bigger problem.
Looked around a bit and found a Sherman battery pack for about $1200. Need two, so $2400 for both sides.
Ewheels doesnt have many model batteries in stock. There's S18 pack for $930 per side, so $1860 for a 1800wh battery. Insane. They have V11 for $500 per side, so $1000 total. They have V12 for $620 per side, so $1240 total. V14 for $350 per pack. Need four, so $1400 total. Cant find Lynx battery.
For some forsaken reason prices on european stores are insane. €900 for one V12 pack, €1800 total. Just buy a new V12 for €2000 instead.
[censored by youtube] has V13 pack for €2939. Prices are just too high at €1 per Wh.
@@eucberserker9049 Depends on how big the battery is. And if you're in US or EU.
Finding a battery to buy may be the bigger problem. Even the biggest dealers dont seem to have many models available. Looked around a bit and found a sample.
Sherman battery pack for about $1200. Need two, so $2400 for both sides.
S18 pack for $930 per side, so $1860 for a 1800wh battery. Insane.
V11 for $500 per side, so $1000 total.
V12 for $620 per side, so $1240 total.
V14 for $350 per pack. Need four, so $1400 total.
Cant find Lynx battery.
For some forsaken reason prices on european stores are insane. €900 for one V12 pack, €1800 total. Could just buy a new V12 for €2000 instead.
Found a V13 pack for €2939. Prices are just too high at €1 per Wh.
@@eucberserker9049 Depends on the size of the battery. And if you're in US or EU.
3000wh batteries are definitely up in the $2000-$3000 catergory. Smaller 1500wh batteries half of that.
Finding a battery to buy may be the bigger problem. Even the biggest dealers dont seem to have many models available.
I looked around a bunch and found some prices but youtube just keeps deleting my comment when I post them. Freaking censorship dystopia.
For some reason prices at european dealers are about 50% higher than some of the american. Rip europeans. New battery the price of the complete EUC.
👍
"there's no conceivable scenario where you'll be using all 100amps" < Challenge accepted! (So, Kidding). great video, thank you!
Thanks 😊 In that segment, I meant to say "constantly discharging at 100 amps" rather than just a quick spike. 😜
Well, You have 40A fuses, so 80A max, which is 20A per cell.
Can anyone tell me how a 40t cell conpares to these cells?
40T's have the same lifecycle longevity as 50S (approximately), but they have 20% less (4000mah) total capacity. They have faster discharge capabilities than 50E, 50GB and 50S, and have a similar cost to 50S. EUC manufacturers have essentially abandoned to 40T cell these days in favor of the 50S instead.
@@WheelGoodTime
thanks for your reply, I'm honored. If i have a wheel with these cells i could more safely ask a lot if it when the charge levels are fairly high?
@@tonguedongdrums I would say so, yes. You'd be more limited by the motherboard/controller's limitations and the wheel's firmware limits at that point. For example, the 50E Extreme was firmware limited to 250A current at the beginning, then they increased it to either 280a or 300a (I can't remember, but I think it's 300). But the 50S battery version is firmware-limited to 330A capability so it can discharge more power safely.
What is 50gb? Is the same as a 50g
It's the same thing as 50e.
@@WheelGoodTime Thanks you, googled it and couldn't find the difference maybe too technical for my older brain.
@@fnbeansover they are technically different, but functionally identical. 😊
NERD! 🤪
Just kidding! Great video man! 🛞⚡️
Look again at data sheet. 50E was charged at 0.5C, not discharged.. witch was 1C. But 50S was discharged at 5C, and charged little over 1C.
I'm not sure what you're trying to say here. I never said that it wasn't discharged at .5C - the 50E's longevity torture test was done with a discharge of 4900mah, which is half of its max continuous discharge rating (9.8a) compared to the 50S's max continuous discharge rating of 25A.
@@WheelGoodTime you said that in test 50e was discharged at 0.5C, witch is not true if you look at data sheet
@@WheelGoodTime You're confusing the concepts a bit. There is no such thing as discharge capacity in terms of performance, there is a discharge rating which we define in C - rating. But ok, I now understand that you meant that the 50s were tested to the full of their rating, while 50e just in half of their rating.
Only Molicel P45B/P42A beat 50S except on price.
You forgot weight, the 50s is marginally heavier.
Comparing weight never even crossed my mind. Great point!
Just take in less sodium and lose 5lbs of water weight. Problem solved right? 😊
You have to be joking.
@@user-iw4ty3jx9m Of course
How much heavier?
THANKS FOR PUTTING A LOT OF THOSE NONSENSE GOOFY CLAIMS TO BED WITH SOLID DATA
But even with the real-world charge/discharge times, by comparison, the 50s will not last as long having 100% range.
What do you mean by not having 100% range? And what are you saying it won't last as long as?
You mentioned the high power ceiling and voltage stability, but even with the fine print, it is 250 cycles. it will still degrade faster and that translates into a faster start of range loss in Euc.@@WheelGoodTime
@@skan8 no, it's only 250 cycles when it is being drained at 25 amps constantly for all of those cycles. When it is being discharged at the same rate as 50e, 50S has a higher lifecycle capacity than 50e. In all real world scenarios, 50s lasts longer than 50e. If 50e was subjected to the same torture test that gave the 50S it's 250 cycle rating, it would last less than 1 cycle before hitting a thermal cutoff, or worse. The video, I emphasized the importance of comparing the two using the same measuring stick. And when using the same measuring stick, 50s lasts longer in all possible scenarios.
What about degradation from fast charging?@@WheelGoodTime
🤡🪄🌩
Poor conclusions... Using the datasheets instead of a real test results leads to useless videos.
Also no information abou class of the elements we will get in the euc from the factory.
For exhample C-class 40t cells from the begode master, shows very poor results.
Lol, you are aware that the lab tests are torture tests, right? By that I mean the 50s was just tested way, way beyond what would ever be used in the real world on an EUC. People are clamoring for real-world test results, but the real world test results are anecdotal rather than scientific, and don't paint a complete picture. The true torture test in the lab is what actually paints the complete picture.
Do you really want the guy to run two lynx's for 48000 km each just to see which one has lost more of the capacity instead of relying on torture tests on the cells and extrapolate the data?