Seeing how Ennio Morricone passed recently and you guys have talked about trilogies lately, it would be cool to have a discussion on the Dollars Trilogy.
In the Rick and Morty style fan art at the beginning, if you look closely you can see Ralph’s microphone is a much lower quality one than Alex and Adam’s, as well as pointing away from his face, and it’s not even plugged in.
@Miasma just a thing I've noticed with Ralph where it seems sometimes that he doesn't think before giving his opinion so it's full of generalizations and hyperbole that would be fine if that's actually what he thought that but usually he changes his statement after any critical response. I like the guy when he's clearly focusing and has valuable things to contribute but when he doesn't it can be very distracting. I don't know if it's just that he struggles to articulate his thoughts off the cuff or some days he just doesn't have much to contribute but it's a grievance I have with the podcast despite also not wanting to see it become the Adam show.
@@danielyoung6778 I was actually somewhat touched by Ralph's intro. He spoke from the heart. Maybe it wasn't super composed, but it's a podcast after all. I could tell he has a great deal of respect for the film and its subject matter.
I wish he went harder on the movie. You can not like a piece of art that you agree with politically. I wanted to hear his opinion but he was walking on eggshells the whole time.
of course he was walking on eggshells. Have you seen the backlash Adum gets any time he voices an opinion on a serious topic? The people who are anti-Adum (be it anti-furries, anti-gay or just someone who doesn't like Adum as a person) will happily and easily strawman him by taking things he said out of context. There are people out there who don't care to hear opinions of people they disagree with, however well-thought-out those opinions might be. They could and would easily make Adum into a racist, anti-BLM person due to the current political climate if he voiced an honest opinion on this film. It's kinda sad that we can't voice an opinion on a piece of art because of people that would see you called racist/transphobic/etc etc. but here we are, current year.
Yeah, I'm half black and can admit that the message of the movie is muddled and shitty. If you ever feel like you're unjustified, Riot! I hate that message. I get it. It's asking you "what is the right thing to do?" And they absolutely do not do the right thing. The only thing I like is the characters. They're just acting soft so they don't get backlash.
Cinema Cola The movie doesn’t tell anyone to riot, it’s more posing a “what do you think is the right thing” kind of question, hence the picture of both MLK and Malcolm X at the end, two people with the same goals but different opinions on what’s the right way to achieve them
@@Alberich_Prince_of_Dwarves you sound like a paranoid lunatic. The scary sjw's aren't coming for anyone for not rating a movie highly. If you can't criticize a film without a mob of people calling you racist, maybe you should consider what exactly it is you're saying. Of course, some people are looking for a fight no matter what you do, but it's not difficult to not get called racist by angry mobs.
That’s a very specific example. Most sequels across all mediums do require the first to get the proper experience. You should want that from sequels, they should build upon what you already know and feel about the story. You shouldn’t watch Godfather Part 2 without seeing the first. There’s an understood prerequisite with sequels that the viewer understands and is connected with characters going into it. I just felt that in the podcast they really hammered home a totally moot point, the game didn’t need more Joel and Ellie time upfront because the entire first game was 15 hours of Joel and Ellie time that got you to care about them and the game is designed with that in mind.
@@randomguy6679 because sequels and parts are two different aspects to telling a narrative. A sequel implies that the narrative focuses on a new chapter that is its own self contained experience that technically doesn't need previous or later games to play to enjoy. Everything that is mentioned of before or even after (if it works in retrospect) should be clear cut and be its own story. A good example of this mindset is Mad Max and it's sequel The Road Warrior. Do you need to know the first Mad Max to enjoy The Road Warrior? Not really. It's optional solely to gain more context and understanding perhaps of the universe of Mad Max, but Road Warrior is different from the original in more ways than 1 (and arguably loved for that reason). "Part" implies an ongoing story that apart of a grander narrative where it's continuity is more emphasized. Godfather to Godfather Part 2 is the film equivalent to that because it's apart of a larger narrative and story about...the godfather. You have to be invested in the entire thing or the narrative won't line up or be enjoyed as much because of the larger story. Portal 1 and 2 are Mad Max and Road Warrior basically. You don't have to play portal 1 to enjoy portal 2 because 2 introduces new mechanics, characters and plot and so on that define it on its own terms without resorting to referring to the first game necessarily to be good. Does playing portal 1 help? Sure but is it necessary to enjoy 2? No. I use to play Resident Evil 4 prior to previous games, thought it was amazing and even after I got around to playing those games, my opinion only made me appreciate it more if anything else. As for the Last of Us, the part 2 implies The Last of Us is simply more than Joel and Ellie's journey and playing through it helps to understand part 2 better in its narrative. The proposed idea of those on favor of part 2 is suggesting the true "character" of the last of us is merely the world and the people who live in it (essentially it's Game of Thrones). It's argued because the first game introduces Sam and Henry, Bill, David, Tommy and his town, the Pittsburgh hunters and such that create the world of the game as a means of grounding the story and making the believable voice work and script to feel real and genuine. Part 2 pushes that then into the narrative by making the characters, regardless if you like them or not, also have a part in the story because the world of Last of Us is not centered on Joel or Ellie but on the...last of us aka the last of humanity that still keeps surviving and doing horrible things to keep going. Of course parts like sequels can share similar traits of improvements or changed to their scripts and stories but actual narrative structure suggests of course otherwise. In other words, people wanted a Road Warrior, not a Godfather Part 2, from the Last of Us and people dislike that. The issue is many consider whether The Last of Us even needed a sequel anyways. The ending was perfect because it made one reflect on the situation and merely leave it up to chance while simultaneously tying both Joel and Ellie's relationship, their own arcs of the overall plot (Left Behind is the chunk that was missing for Ellie to really get fleshed out in the main plot for me personally). Basically there was no need for a sequel...but as a "part" narrative that twists every aspect of the original where fans feel the most pain.
Joel Haver here’s a list of a ton of sequels that completely hold up on their own without you needing to play the original and still get the full experience Gta 5 from every other game in the series Mario 2 from super Mario bros Mario 3 from super Mario 2 Super Mario 3d world from super Mario 3d land Mario Galaxy 2 from Mario Galaxy A link between worlds from a link to the past Team fortress 2 from team fortress Garfield kart furious racing from Garfield kart most main line final fantasy games Every animal crossing game Every Mario kart Every Mario party Basically, I think that it’s genre specific; smash bros melee holds up well on its own but I do recognize that sequels to a lot of narrative/story- based single player games do make sense with what you said, but I disagree with “most sequels across all mediums do require the first to get the proper experience.” I could be wrong, but that’s how I see it and I still see where you’re coming from
I was a little surprised when ralph started talking about the film and Adum repeatedly screamed the n-word over him, nonetheless I managed to hear Ralph out so it wasn't too much of a bother
I really enjoyed the game but your criticisems for it are some of the best ive seen on youtube, i actually understand why you dont like it... most people ive talked to just say something like they shouldnt have killed joel or i dont care what they tried to do with abby...
Another lazy criticism I’ve seen that I didn’t like was “you should’ve gotten to kill Abby at the end. Otherwise, what was the point of Ellie’s long journey?” This criticism annoys me because it completely ignores Ellie’s character arc, her growth, the resolution of her arc, and the themes of the game. So many people play bc “haha violence fun, pew pew” without thinking about the message of the story. Or they’ll see a sad scene and think “wow so deep” without thinking about what it actually means. This criticism reminds me of people who would look at the ending of Moonlight (2016) “that’s it? They just hold each other and it ends? What was the point?”
@aq Br Agreed, the worse part of this game to me is the pacing. It honestly felt like the game was never going to end at times. Red dead 2 is a very long game but playing it honestly felt shorter because it was so engaging, TLOU 2 on the other hand felt like it was 50 hours long or something lol.
@A Light Skin With Taste That's honestly fair enough. I have my issues with the story too (Some characters had no real reason to be there, for example, Yarra), and the pacing is a nightmare. Gameplay is legit some of the best Naughty Dog has done and the graphics are beautiful too
@@monty_coolmccool there was a legitimate twist at the end with the fact that 11/11 previous patients had died making a cure and that it wasn’t until the hospital that they mention the surgery will kill Ellie. Which means if she dies and no cure is made her life is for literally nothing. Not the same thing.
In this episode the boys talk about a piece of media that sparked debate from the most oppressed minority group of all. They also talk about Do The Right Thing
I bet if anyone who's not paying attention to all that bullshit actually just sat down and played the game they'd find it fine. Does some things good and something's bad, probably some pacing issues and decent ideas done poorly that people on all sides of the positive and negative spectrum are overreacting to. I feel like that's going to be my take in about a decade when I actually bother playing that series of I remember to and am not dead.
@Jake Boos Boogie Night and Inherent Vice double feature would be great since they're both set in the 70s. Also there are very few discusions on Inherent Vice so I'd be interesting to hear their takes.
@@grrggrrg4805 They just said Adum was being racist, but I'm guessing the replier either regretted posting that or changed their mind, so it's all good now
That's basically how I feel about all Disney movies (barring The Lion King, funnily enough). Almost every single Disney movie would be better with the comic relief removed. It's tantamount to heresy to say this, but I think Aladdin would be better without Robin Williams too.
@@mrvideogamevideos I think Hercules has too much comic relief, to the point that removing it would remove damn near the whole movie/story. It's almost non-stop bullshiting from everybody.
I really wanna watch "do the right thing" now. It's so strange and interesting about how the concept of race has evolved since the early 20th century. All my grandparents/great grandparents lived in Brooklyn - and there was the Italian parts, the Irish parts, the Jewish parts... and those were all considered different races. Then later on, they kind of melded together a little bit. I wish I could peek back in time into the communities my relatives a few generations ago lived.
Ralph did a really great job with his analysis of Do the Right Thing this episode. A lot of the time on the podcast he seems pretty casual and always corrects himself when the others bring up a point, which is totally fine, but he really carried the discussion today. He made me view the film in a different light and even appreciate it more
Maybe give the protagonist a bump in personality to make him more engaging as a character himself rather than simply when around the Long John Silver as well.
Daniel Young yea because having his father leave him only to find a father figure in the antagonist. Then becoming his own roll model by fighting against him and coming out a better man is nothing
Yeah that's fair if he did. I recall liking it ok but it had some stuff in it that didn't offend me but simply didn't work imo and hasn't aged well. The female lead was solid but it's definitely stands out among the "good" Spike Lee movies as being the weakest link.
Neil Druckmann knew from the beginning it was going to divide the fan base, he told it at least 3 years ago... I still liked the game for what it was, but it was dark... Conpared to the first one, which i played at least 10times, i dont even know if i will play Part II again ...
Yeah, I understand if they don't like what they did but I think it's kinda naive to assume no thought was put into the reception of a game that took that many years of development (by one of the biggest videogames company in the world) and broke a sales record.
@@martaperez1242 exactly. There is still lots of props to give to them. I dont regret buying the special edition one bit. I hope it is the kind of story that will grow on me with time
I disagree with nearly all of their grievances with the game. When Adum mentioned they were naive I immediately thought about Neil saying he knew half the people would be upset years ago. They knew.
I agree with some of Adam's criticisms of Do The Right Thing and I respect him for not kissing the movie's ass while at the same time not undermining the important message.
@Anomalisa I’d like to think he’s still trying to finish the game. I mean right now he’s reviewing the Indiana Jones series at the moment as well as films that have since gone to digital/streaming but maybe he’ll drop his review of TLOU2 at some point. But then again maybe not.
Ghostbusters 2016 established the corporate model for how to profit off controversy. Incorporate diversity, exaggerate the number of bigots, call anyone who criticizes your product a bigot, profit. Capitalism will commodify anything.
After watching Shazam (weird, I know) I realised that if they’d have just started off with Abby as a small kid without context, we’d have felt more sympathy for her. We play as Abby from her being a kid to when Joel kills her dad. We see her struggles without knowing who she even is, we start to feel for her and her dad. Then there’s the revelation that her dad was the doctor. That Abby run is 20 minutes at most, we know who she is and her motives. That’s a better expectation subversion in my opinion.
Too be fair, Abby's arms being jacked was a result of years of training to find and kill Joel who killed her father. People may find a muscular armed woman amusing, fine, but it has a significance to Abby's character.
Everyone will derive different meaning from these small details based on their opinion. They can hate it or like it. But in the 1st part most couldn't help but like what they saw. I'm sure if her character was better shown and introduced most people would like it, atleast tolerate it. But they blundered it. They didn't have a good story to work it so they just kept pulling the guilt card of "the person you killed had a life too so feel bad, revenge sux" to forward the plot? Ofcourse this is my opinion. The game is great but they could've done much much much better. Sorry if you were not expecting a big reply!
Noob Noob gotta disagree that it’s just about “feel bad revenge sucks” I never once felt bad, I felt like I was learning a different perspective and given all of the information to understand both sides. Yeah revenge sucks, but forgiveness is healing & having empathy & understanding different perspectives will bring peace. When I say I never once felt bad, for example I didn’t feel bad that Ellie killed the dog because I understood that she did it to survive, I didn’t feel bad that Abby played with the dog because I understood that the WLF train dogs & so therefore also play with them, that’s what perspective is. Just like I understood why Joel took Ellie and doomed humanity out of love for her. I didn’t feel bad or guilty, I just understood all character’s decisions even flawed ones
@@uhuhuh1966 huh...interesting! Yeah maybe you're right. I get what you're talking about but I guess the game and what it wanted to portray didn't sit right with me. Whatevs. Thanks for the insight bruv.
@@noobnoob8922 I think a lot of what the game tried to do was to make u feel uneasy and uncomfortable. Because that's what the journey of Revenge is like. Ellie's revenge plot was not satisfying at all. She'd come back to Dina and feel terrible abt what she had done to find abby. The only reason she continues on was because she felt like it was the only way to get ride of the guilt caused by not being able to forgive Joel because he died. What ellie should've done her entire journey was to move on and be with Dina and other people who cared abt her. Instead, this revenge mission only pushes them away and takes away Ellie's humanity. Abby's journey had to start with her killing Joel in order to show us what it's like if ellie ever did get her revenge. Abby never got over her dad even after she took her revenge, but her journey in saving people who she was supposed to hate was her redemption arc in realizing that forgiveness was the key to coping with the loss of her father. Telling her side of the story was not only just for empathy for empathy's sake, it was to illustrate growth and the theme that forgiveness triumphs over revenge in dealing with loss and guilt. Sorry for the long one too.
My problem is Joel and Ellie didn’t even start to bond until more than halfway through the first game and the first game is kinda short. It’s just weird that they killed him that early on, there was so much more story and arcs to explore. Maybe they should’ve made TLOU2 a prequel to the first game with Joel and Tommy. Like RDR2. 20 years.. there’s so much story to cover before the first games timeline.
Last of us 2 is basically the game equivalent of the last jedi. Half love it and half hate it. Story drastically subverted expectations and the director and cast are getting harassed online.
@Los Angeles Lakers Uber Alles And both are championed by a side that claims to be anti racist but would not hesitate to be racist towards whites and when confronted that they're being racist they would either laugh or state that it's not possible to be racist to towards whites. Or by a side that loves overt left wing ideology into all media and when people don't like that they call them buzzwords
I have never heard anybody who hates it complain about it regarding sexism/transphobia(??) and I have no idea what racism has to do with any of it. And I have heard plenty of people who hate the game for legitimate reasons
Originally, they wanted to introduce Abby earlier, and she would have been in Jacksonville for a while, dancing with joel and all. They should have introduced and makes us like her before. Part II just felt like Part III...
The whole point of the story is breaking down “Us vs Them” mentality, learning to view “the other” as just normal people like everyone else. If we already knew Abby from the very beginning we would’ve already formed empathy for her and therefore wouldn’t have been able to see her as “the other”. The beginning places you squarely in Ellie’s shoes “Us” and hating Abby and not knowing anything about her “Them”. It’s the same mentality in today’s politics, how Republicans only view Democrats as evil monsters & Vice versa. It’s shining a spotlight on that and tearing it down, asking us to have empathy for “the other” and learn their perspectives.
Dil’Witch Spahlin how? I provided examples that supports my point, can you do the same in disproving it? Didn’t you ever wonder why there was a war going on between Scars & Wolves? It’s that same Us Vs Them mentality on a larger scale, it’s not that it’s “deep”, it’s the theme of the entire story: empathy, perspective, forgiveness, how far we’ll go to gain closure, revenge doesn’t heal etc.
@@dilwitchspahlin4761 You think they're reaching but you're mistaken in believing these concepts are even remotely farfetched, hard to grasp, or irrelevant to survival games as a whole.
Is the show a adaption of the games? Or is it a spin off in the same universe? Kind of like how everyone thought the Watchmen HBO show was going to be a adaptation of the graphic novel, but it was a sequel instead.
@@TheRealKG912 He probably should adapt it and improve upon it's flaws. That might win the fanbase back. Remember how Captain America: Civil War adapted a pretty widely disliked comic book storyline into one of the most well received MCU films? I honestly feel like one could adapt The Last of Us Part 2 into a good season of television.
@@rsfilmdiscussionchannel4168 Yes i think so too, he could do a season alone for just the stuff between the first game and the second. A smoother transition. Plus he can always deviates if he wants from the games!
Adam, I get that you didn't love Do The Right Thing, but was it strictly necessary to appear on webcam for the first time on this podcast just to model your white hood
In all fairness he clearly put a lot of effort into it. I think he even ironed it just before the podcast because it looks a little damp for the first ten minutes.
The reason Ellie doesn't hesitate when killing soldiers and seraphites but she does when killing Abby is purely because of self defense. The soldiers and the seraphites wanted to kill her but when she's going after Abby she's the one attacking. I don't think the whole "lol I'm gonna kill this guy and his dog with a moltov coctel to see them burn" approach is canon at all and I can suspend my disbelief in that. Also the reason Ellie leaves Dina and the baby is not bad, she thinks her PTSD will only go away if Abby dies but when she's about to kill her she realizes that killing Abby solves nothing and the only way to get over it is forgiveness since she couldn't forgive Joel for what he did on the hospital.
@@ezwar99 really liked ths visual presentation. The aspect ratio change and the use of picture/footage kinds remind me of Gus Van Sant film. The action scenes feel a bit amateutish,although that might be intentional. Despite liking the characters dynamic,The movie feels really long for sure. Some moments you are really into and others your are kinda lost.
@@ezwar99 Same. Spikes unsubtle directing style generally works better with comedy, felt preachy as hell in D5B. Also not a fan of how he no longer relies on the audience to make connections between his films and real life, instead screaming it in their faces. Lindo was good, that's the only thing that wowed me.
@@YTWanderer i mean optimal structure would be around making it genuinely hard for the player to kill Abby, but making it justified. But of course this would require quality writing, and Neil Druckmann letting people explore a story (instead of forcing people to follow literally just one path.)
@@zacozacoify I think he meant the last sardonicast episode, they briefly talked about it but didn't go in full depth because none of them had finished it yet
I've heard many people say they shouldn't have killed joel right at the beginning, which doesn't make any sense to me. The last scene they show is the night before his death, where ellie is finally able to maybe forgive him one day. That's what made it even worse for her. She finally wanted to forgive him or at least try and abby took that from her. If there was more time between them after that scene where they get along again, it wouldn't have nearly as much impact.
You mean the kind of flashback that her character conveniently forgets for the duration of the game in whose narrative she acts as a paragon of vengeance until the plot demands that her arc come to an end?
Nope, I understood why it happened but I still think he was killed off too soon. But everyone is entitled to their interpretation and opinions I suppose.
@@Hoganply She didn't forget about that moment. She just decided to apply it to Abby as well because she could understand why Abby did what she did just as much as she could understand why Joel did what he did.
The first time I saw Do the Right Thing was literally days before George Floyd was murdered I'm not joking. I was just watching the AFI 100 movies list and that one I just happened to watch before it all went down. The fact that it came out 30 years ago and it still rings so true to what's happening today is so haunting and baffling to me.
I'd just like to throw out here that Alex and his brother talked about the last of us part II in a standalone video on Jarcast and went into incredible depth about what they felt did and didn't work. It was roughly equal in length to this video and quite enjoyable for someone like me who hasn't played or watched any of the game.
It’s dependent on the first one to have emotional context. It’s called the last of us part II. Sequels work with some inherent knowledge that you come in with.
I would argue that the best sequels stand well on their own. A lot of people I know love this game, some even prefer it to the first game. I haven’t met anyone that thinks the narrative and script/dialogue is better in the second, even if they prefer it.
I don’t get the argument of them saying part 2 relied on you playing the first game to feel anything for Joel’s death isn’t that the point? Realistically who is going into part 2 without having played the first or even watched a LP. I personally didn’t mind Joel’s death and was emotionally affected by it (although I do agree with Adam that I should’ve happened later)
Part 1 is a self contained story, it has a definitive ending. Part 2 is a new story with new arcs. If your complete story doesn't work unless the audience has experienced another complete story, it's a bad story. You don't need to watch Alien to care about what happens in Aliens.
The problem with making statements like "If you do x it's a bad story" is that there is no objective standard of writing, and it only works when you cherry pick examples to support the point. You can also cherry pick counter examples to prove the opposite, for example. Return of the King is a great film but it doesn't really work unless you've seen the previous films. Same with Empire Strikes Back or Avengers Endgame. Charlie Kaufman's films are full of things that many would call "bad writing" and they still work really well, like Adaptation or Being John Malkovich. Also this presumes that the story doesn't work for anyone who hasn't played the first game, which I also don't think is accurate. There is enough explanation in the game so that someone who hasn't played part I could still follow the story, although they obviously won't be as familiar with the characters. I've never understood why it's so hard for people to just say they didn't like something and instead need to try and invent rules to "prove" that the thing they don't like is objectively bad.
Return of the King is not a complete story, it's act 3 of LOTR. Endgame isn't a complete story, it's the last episode of the Avengers cinematic TV show. Empire is also not a complete story, it's act 2 of the OT. Those aren't good examples, that's why I used Alien and Aliens, both of which had definitive beginnings and endings. Most people have seen Aliens before Alien and it worked for them just fine because of the self containment.
I am very surprised with the way they are criticizing the game and talking about how a sequel shouldn't do this to its fanbase. Involving the fanbase to a narrative is basically pandering and letting artists express themselves in their art form is essential. I feel like the narrative was very rich and nuanced and wasn't really "manipulative", Ellie wasn't portrayed as bad, and Abby wasn't portrayed as good. "Oh, Ellie killed a dog" that was self defense btw. Almost all the kills were self defense or they made us understand why she had to do that (Nora's death was there to make us feel as uncomfortable as Ellie, it's an interactive technique to connect the player and the character, and they displayed that throughout the game smartly). Same goes to Abby, and how Abby's story mirrors Joel's. I think the risks they took paid off from a narrative standpoint and failed to a lot of people, which is a common case with art and it is fair if people dislike it. It isn't really for everyone, but I am glad they took these risks to give us a narrative worth exploring. Also killing Joel early on is to challenge the player's bias and wanted the player to overcome that specific challenge. Which was brilliantly done in my opinion. Btw big fan of you three. I love arthouse films as much as Adum. Keep up the good work.
Agree whole heartedly with this. The risk paid off for me as well. To be honest, replaying the first game right before the second, the first game is lacking on substantial story. Nothing of actual importance occurs until the very end, narratively. The relationship between Joel and Ellie is the strongest part of the original. The sequel raises the narrative up to full ten.
@@salmonsdontdie4952 100% with all of this. A lot of people are appreciating Part II, and even more so than the first, but the vocal majority dislike as it seems. Which is fine, it isn't for everyone, I just want people to be respectful to one another and not be toxic.
Time Codes: Intro - 00:00 Do the Right Thing (Spoilers) - 01:20 The Last of Us Part II (Spoilers) - 37:32 Q&A Section - 1:30:20 What movie would be improved by completely removing one character? - 1:30:33 What are your favorite Hollywood feuds? - 1:32:56 What book/comic book/game do you think is unadaptable into a movie? - 1:38:11 The legacy of Ennio Morricone - 1:43:53 Alex’s film recommendation (Incendies) - 1:47:42
"TLOU2 depends so much on the audience having played the first game." This is NEVER a valid criticism. OF COURSE a sequel expects you to be familiar with the events of the previous story. You don't just skip to the last chapter of a book and complain, "they really wanted me to care about these characters i just met? They actually expected me to go back and read the 20 previous chapters in the book before this one? God, so manipulative! Why couldn't this last chapter completely stand on its own?!" See how insane this argument sounds? Adam says this all the time about the MCU movies, which is easily the weakest thing to criticize ANY of them for.
I don't think this is necessarily true for all sequels. It is completely possible for a sequel to be made to stand on its own without having to watch the previous entries. Blade Runner 2049 is a perfect example of this. Of course this isn't the case for a lot of sequels, but I feel that The Last Of Us is a series that could've DEFINITELY had a sequel like this. The ending of the first game was so perfect that, for a lot of people, including me, a sequel wasn't even necessary, so I think a sequel that could stand on it's own was more than possible for this series.
I think 'a sequel isn't the place to take narrative' risks was the real worst take here. Almost every other point they made was understandable but this one is baffling. It feels like the kind mentality that keeps all of the marvel movies as cookie-cutter copies of each other. IMO a sequel is a great place to take a risk. You have the work of establishing a universe out of the way so you can take things in all sorts of creative and risky directions while playing off of audience expectations a lot easier than with an original IP. I would much rather see a sequel take a risk and fail then play it safe and be the same thing we've already seen.
@@topgun077 that was poor wording but I think it's because the risks completely change the direction of the first one. The best way naughty dog takes risks is telling a conventional story with unconventional beats: the ending of the last of us is one of my absolute favourites because of it's moral ambiguity. There's nothing really like that in tlou 2, in terms of quality anyway. They try to double down with the ambiguity by making Abby the playable character but it feels like a parody of presenting a moral conundrum. The ending to the first game lets players make up their own mind as to whether Joel did the right thing. The Ellie/Abby dichotomy feels Naughty Dog holding our hands and telling us we can't jump on the jumping castle because we'll break something. It's risk for the sake of risk. Think of Undead Nightmare, that was a risk that paid off by completely flipping the script and subverting expectations as it's own stand alone adventure that also expanded on the first one for it's own alternative universe
@@jordannewitt I see your point and I'm not arguing whether the risk works or not (I think it works spectacularly but I fully understand why other people don't), but with the concept that the sequel shouldn't have taken a narrative risk which was the point Adam was making. This feels at odds with his general outlook on film where he bemoans the cookie cutter and cash grab nature of sequels and comic book films. If he's now saying he'd prefer developers stick to a formula I'm kind of confused what he really wants. Like it's totally understandable to say that you don't think the risk ND took here paid off. But saying developers shouldn't take risks with existing IP is like saying directors shouldn't take existing properties in new directions. Even if I had hated the game I'd still be impressed with ND for trying something new instead of just slightly iterating on a formula like they did with the first three Uncharted games.
Question for everyone, is deceptive marketing a good reason to dislike the game? I haven’t played Part I or Part II. Marvel used deceptive marking very similar to this game’s marketing for Infinity War and End Game, and people still love those. They did it for those movies so they wouldn’t reveal anything important, couldn’t the same be said for this game?
I think it’s a fair criticism of the marketing, but not the game overall. Halo 5 also had some fairly deceptive marketing and that kinda bugged my when I played it, but I wouldn’t say it took away from the game too much.
The difference was the big twist at the end of "Infinity War" also had some form of resolution that they could take. When you finished that movie you knew there was something they could do to fix things and you still had a sense of hope. "The Last of Us Part 2" doesn't give a sense of hope after you get to "that part" and only tries to subvert expectations rather than build and interesting or dynamic narrative. Think "The Last Jedi" and how it really didn't have a conclusive vision, just set piece and event after event. Some parts are good, objectively good, but the whole experience doesn't combine into anything more than a confused mess.
Because the problems people are having with the Last of Us Part II isn’t just its marketing, but also its treatment of the main characters. The marketing for Infinity War and Endgame was kinda deceptive, but it didn’t really deviate too much from what people were expecting
Evening News No what I’m trying to say was that the “deceptive” marketing for those two movies were really minor, like they were mostly just background changes or something. It wasn’t like in TLOU II where that one guy put his hand on Ellie’s back and they made it seem like it was Joel’s to prey on people’s emotional attachment to the first game, and only for the game to ignore it and do something else. People expected an action adventure for Endgame and such and they got it
I really enjoyed the narrative of TLOU2. It was pretty disjointed at times but I really enjoyed what they were going for thematically. I did like playing as Abby and seeing what she went through, and I definitely didn't want to see her and Ellie kill each other by the end. I was much more satisfied with the ending of this game than I was with the first.
@@theitalianfukr4270 There's a bit more nuance than "revenge bad". Revenge does not work out for Abby or Ellie at all. Revenge isn't what saves them from killing each other at the end of the story. It's like if I said revenge works out for Anakin Skywalker in Star Wars because of what happens at the end of Episode 6.
Joel’s presence was felt through the entire game. Ellie’s journey is like a discovery into identifying who he wronged, while at the same time unraveling Ellie enforcing his same tactics in getting information through interrogation and exacting revenge, mirroring his already passed on bad decision making before meeting Ellie. Their relationship was already on muddy ground at the end of the last game, and this awkwardness is reflected through Joel in the beginning flashback with the guitar. Then later through Ellie’s eventual seed of doubt in the birthday memory, then the catalyst moment at the hospital where their relationship changes completely. Ellie specifically remembering certain flashbacks over others is the angst she has about herself in how she felt she treated him close to his final moments, like at the dance. I think this was really well done with the chilling jump frames of Joel’s corpse being most that she sees due to guilt in not properly forgiving him, Abby took that forgiveness away from Ellie and it’s only until the end where she can properly forgive herself for it. So I don’t see how Joel and Ellie’s relationship wasn’t properly handled, anything more would’ve felt like fan service. I respect that they chose to opt out a hug from both of them on the porch, it didn’t feel realistic at that stage. I don’t see how people thought this games story was going to be anything other than around the consequences of Joel’s actions at the end of the last game, and how it was going to be held accountable. Abby wasn’t handled poorly to me either, her gradual increase in physique and insistence on going to training made her blind to revenge instead of focusing on the relationships she could’ve had, especially with Owen. The nuance in Laura Bailey’s performance especially in Joel’s death wasn’t this one dimensional thing, and from that point for her character it effects her relationships with friends from her faction, so her redemption arc in fixing those relationships ends up getting her mixed with the Seraphites, but most importantly ex Seraphites who she can identify with as her own faction has turned on her too. The war between the WLF and the Seraphites perfectly showing the fueds that can happen between two perspectives. Abby wouldn’t have had her redemption in finding the Fireflies had Ellie not freed her. Both couldn’t have redemption without each other, and this is all from Joel’s actions. Everything you enjoy from a gameplay level is all meant to reflect the different themes and motivations of different perspectives, especially through parallels of both sides if you look enough. So yes violence begets more violence, and its those that redeem you that can help you get out of that cycle of rage. In the end for Ellie and those around her like Tommy who is permanently scarred forever, it serves as a reminder on the damage of revenge on yourself and your relationships with those around you. Ellie at least is at a place where she can move on and put it behind her.
Wow i was really surprised with the gameplay comments because i had literally zero difficult with the first one and struggle with some parts here, and also felt more a horror game for me because i got more scarred in this one(stalkers got me really nervous) and the ammo managment felt for important. I didn’t love the story or anything but i really loved the level design, specially the sky bridge, the isle on fire(the hole cult remembered me a zelda tribe) and the floded areas
While I disagree with nearly all of their criticisms of TLOU2, it’s stated in an understandable and interesting way. I can easily see how they arrived at their opinions and feelings. If all TLOU2 criticism was this thoughtful and interesting, I don’t think fans of TLOU2 would be so annoyed with those who dislike or even hate the game.
@@CayeDaws The entire conflict between Seattle is a metaphor for the Israel-Palenstine conflict according to the games own writer and director and his experience living in the West Bank as a teenager and his regret over wanting to kill a bunch of Palestinians after footage of them lynching two Israeli soldiers in 2000.
@@Tamacat388 I mean I can’t blame them for executing 2 Israeli Soldiers. That’s war. Especially since then Israel is on the war path to exterminate Palestine.
incendies...holy shit! my wife and I watched it years back never having heard of Denis Villeneuve and we were blown away by that movie. we still talk about it now. made me pay attention to his films since then. very talented director
@@randomguy6679 lol its from the oscars 2018 video he made, during mary j blige's performance someone in the chat called adum racist in some way and adum just blurted out "why am i racist?"
I don't know if Adam reads comments, but Drake's brother was mentioned in previous games and Uncharted 4 has the Drake's theme aswell (it's called A Thief's End btw), it's just recomposed by Henry Jackman to be more dramatic rather than having playful tone, cause it's last game in franchise with Nate
No one seems to understand how the fight with Abby at the end can’t be compared to all previous enemies. Previous enemies you had to take down out of self defense, meanwhile Abby let Ellie live TWICE! Ellie forced her to fight by threatening Lev, it is not a 1:1 equivalent to all previous enemies at all. Ellie stopped because she finally could see Abby’s perspective, took pity on her because she saw how revenge brought Abby no happiness only suffering, could see herself & Joel in Abby’s & Lev’s relationship, knew the cycle wouldn’t end because Lev would hunt her down in the future for killing Abby...all of this understanding rushed into her when she had Abby dead in the water and felt no satisfaction, while also hitting rock bottom with abandoning Dina & JJ. Saying letting Abby go doesn’t make sense after killing people to get to her, people who were trying to kill you/her also, is just asinine to me
Yeah it's like the difference between defensive violence and straight up murder. Completely different headspaces that require different personality types.
Exactly. Ellie killing Abby is precisely what wouldn't have made sense to me, specially after playing as Abby and realizing (if the game did it right for you) how ellie was blinded by revenge. It would have felt as if the whole story the game wanted to tell you had been for nothing.
if you really wanted to, you could attempt to stealth your way through the entire game so not every kill was self defense. also, ellie torturing nora was most definitely not necessary so ellie isn’t a stranger to killing people for selfish reasons.
Reyla Games ellie wasn’t a stranger to ‘straight up murder’ if you recall the scene with nora, wouldn’t really have been out of character for her to kill abby
mel Ellie was capable of torturing Nora because Nora was already dead from spores, it was easier for her to rationalize it to herself and even still it took a toll on her. She didn’t attempt to torture Owen & Mel, and that scene was even a mirror to Joel torturing the two men in the first game. If Nora had given up Abby’s location and not gotten infected by spores, Ellie would’ve let her go, same goes for Owen & Mel if they hadn’t attacked her.
SPOILERS for The Last of Us Part 2 I wish someone would talk about how Druckman and Gross comment on cycles of violence. I wish someone would discuss how they critique tribalism, or denial. Talk about Torres and the rabbi. Talk about how Ellie insists to Dina that "they're not like us" while mirroring Isaac ("Give me 5 minutes alone with them and my knife and I'll tell you if they're lying or not"). Talk about how Ellie is the moth drawn to the flame that leaves her forever scarred. Talk about how the trading cards and state coins Ellie and Abby respectively collect reinforce the ideas of tribes and territories. Talk about how Abby, Ellie and Tommy miss out on happy, romantic relationships because they can't let go of the need for revenge. Talk about how our inability to see humanity in "the other" is not just a stumbling block for our characters but for us as the audience as well. Talk about something other than how bad you felt when your video-game-man died. I will admit that this game demands a lot from you as a "player". Much of Druckman and Gross's text lies outside of the cut-scenes. If you haven't payed close attention to the inter-character chatter during the "walking sections" you will miss many key details. If you don't read the notes and letters found throughout the environments, you will miss much of the thesis. This is a game. Your interaction is required. It is more demanding than a film. You talk about how this story makes the audience FEEL BAD and how that's a bad thing. I don't believe Druckman and Gross are asking that you empathize with Abby, or Ellie or anyone for that matter. They are putting these characters, their actions and their words in front of you and hoping that you will be able to analyze them against the backdrop of a "tribalistic", dystopian world and draw meaning from what you find. If you can't get over the whole "I don't like what they did to my favorite video game characters" thing, you will never be able to successfully examine this game / story / plot.
I'm sorry but I just don't see it as "more demanding" or "more intelligent" than a good movie. If it was any other medium, it would be an average to sub-par story with a disproportionate level of self-indulgent violence. It just keeps on screaming its obvious messages of "humanity does bad things, let's do all of them and pretend we are asking questions about it when we are just indulging in it" to a level I just find pretentious. I'm pretty sure everyone piling on like it's the worst/best thing ever are just dejected people who succumbed to the hypetrain/hatetrain and will repeat the process on the next slightly challenging big budget game. It's no masterpiece, it's no horrendous garbage, it's just blown out of proportion. Just reminds me of the time everyone kept saying that Black Panther was the best movie ever and should win all the Oscars ever or hated it as "sjw-propaganda" when it wasn't even the most progressive movie to come out that year nor the best filmed.
@@teecee1827 1) I completely agree about your Black Panther example. In fact, that's pretty good example of an entry-level version of the tribalism The Last of Us Part 2 warns about. People pick sides and fight over things that need not be fought over. 2) By "more demanding" I simply mean that the experience is like 20 hours long. So, it's more demanding than a 2-hour feature. 3) I don't read the violence as self-indulgent. I believe the violence had to be depicted as realistically as possible to make sure the audience understands what's at stake. This is where Druckman and Gross believe tribalism takes us. You're free to disagree but I'd be careful not to write it off as merely "indulging". If we enjoy the killing in the game (I admit I do) it's an opportunity to reflect on our own potential for violence. 4) I don't think the message is only "humanity does bad things". That's clearly a part of it, but I think the message is closer to something like, "You and your "enemies" probably have a lot in common". But even that doesn't cover it. I'm not insisting that people like the game at all. I'm just not impressed with the level of analysis.
TLOU1 was overtly simplistic. I think the game feels like a Pixar story retooled into something more “adult.” I think Joel’s grief arc isn’t that interesting or impressive and definitely ends tragically. He basically is using Ellie to relive his daughter. I personally think TLOU2 was actually pretty fucking cool. I don’t think the pregnancy angle for example were meant to be manipulative - and Adam kept beating the manipulation drum. Mel’s death was more intended to get to Ellie and Dina’s pregnancy was meant to make Ellie feel emotionally isolated during their trip in Seattle. When she kills Mel who is pregnant it helps tear into Ellie more who can identify her with Dina which has the cause and effect of her being careless enough to allow Abby to track her. It serves multiple functions and none of them made me feel like it was trying to have me go “oh no! Pregnancy. Wow they dead? That’s bad.” Almost every example of “manipulation” really is just meant to serve a more macro function which I think helps justify the inclusion and drive the characters down their arcs. It was a big drag to have basically no contrasting viewpoint on it to debate the matter.
The first game is the perfect example of simplicity and its substance. The sequel is complexity over substance. Like Adam said, if you’re gonna do something risky, make sure it works. The game just isn’t satisfying narratively or character wise. The first game has characters that are loveable, a great score, great atmosphere, journey, perfect opening and a perfect ending, with great supporting characters along the way. The sequel is hollow, depressing, and frustratingly unsatisfying
Abby doesn't kill dogs but she is in a war against the seraphites and the seraphites use horses. As Ellie you have to deal with dogs and as Abby you deal with horses, saying it's forced that Abby doesn't kill dogs because Ellie does kill them makes no sense at any level, how does it make the game worse? Ellie loved her horse Shimmer and the WLF fucking kills him with a mine while Abby loved her dog Alice and Ellie fucking stabs him to death.
TBH I think the ending of Death Note is the strongest part of the second season. Near and Mello just aren't interesting to me, they feel like hollow and shitty substitutes. The L/Light dynamic is so good that you can't just replace it. But seeing the absolute downfall of Light, post-L, is great. And as someone who is a bit of a nerd when it comes to japanese voice actors, my adoration for Miyano Mamoru (Light) just spiked after his performance in Death Note.
one of my favourite lines in do the right thing has to be from after the celtics guy (john savage weirdly) fucks up buggin’s shoes, and buggin’s mad that he bought a brownstone on his side of the street. john savage is like “from what i understand its a free country, a man can live wherever he wants,” and buggin says “free country? man i should fuck you up for sayin that shit alone!”
The reason I was surprised that Joel died was because I thought it was such an obvious choice that naughty dog wouldn't think about pulling something so obvious.
Hey you guys should do a discussion on Michael Mann's movies, especially The Insider, since its one of his most underrated movies and some of the best acting by Al Pacino and Russell Crowe.
I think that a lot of people have a really hard time playing tlou2 because of their expectations. If you look at it on it's own, or from a less totally connected viewpoint, you get a LOT more out of it. For example, I only played the first game a month before the second came out, so I had a lot less connection to the characters and IP in general. Also, if you went into this game thinking they WEREN'T going to do some batshit crazy unexpected stuff, idk what to say, given the ending of the first game, I think people should've expected have some hard hitting emotional points and controversial stuff. Also, I beg of anyone who plays the game to deeply consider Abby's POV even if you're a massive fan of the first.
I think the issue with LOU2 is that no one accomplishes anything aside from Abby killing Joel. How can something be entertaining if you're told to like a character, but them and everyone around them screws up for stupid reasons and have nothing to show for it?
I think Neil Druckmann should have coddled the fan base with TLOU2 and shown everyone that Joel's and Ellie's existence within their world is special and infallible in every way, shape, and form.
I don't think that will happen given the number of times they have criticised him and his work over the last two and a bit years. Also, he is a really shitty person.
im still waiting for the kung fu panda episode... i know its coming i know Alex has a lot to talk about that movie... its time alex please the world needs this
The intro alone easily makes this one of Ralph's best episodes. I'll miss him on the pod. I always loved the more earnest discussions the most. MY ITALIAN AMERICAN REPRESENTATION HAS BEEN STRIPPED AWAY 🤌🏼🤌🏼😢
I think the most annoying part of TLOU2 is that it REALLY thinks it's saying something special. As Adam said, the themes got in the way of a satisfying narrative, although the themes themselves: "Revenge bad & enemies human" are just THE most obvious, LEAST original sentiments, and there's nothing particularly interesting about their presentation. It simply doesn't feel worth all the heavy handed misery they try to put you through. TLOU1 had way more interesting ideas, insisted upon them far less and still managed to be so much more effective.
"Revenge bad & enemies human" I didn't see any of these as themes, at least not as simplistic as you make them sound. It's more of a commentary about the cycle of senseless violence in general, which in this world and the world of video games as a whole, a lot of people can definitely not even think about it as they play through. Like a lot of the time in video games you just kill shit and nothing comes back to bite you, you don't even think about it, there aren't any real consequences. Which is fine, it's a video game, but this game wanted to explore it in a different way using the narrative. Which is why the theme works for me, but the execution not as much. But as a whole, the game is an 8.5/10 for me.
@@Crow-qm7zw that's reasonable, I think it's mostly the excecution/presentation but the story is also needlessly complicated and makes the main plot seem small and unimportant. That might have been the point but the whole game is sold on Ellie's revenge story so making that seem irrelevant to this bigger issue of walking dead factions the WLF and Seraphites was a huge wasted opportunity. It takes the personal feeling out of the game. Trying to bridge Ellie and Abby's stories would've been the best move because all Ellie is to Abby is a nuisance whereas Abby is the focal point of Ellie's story. If the whole city found out Ellie was immune and it became this manhunt for the immune girl, it would've upped the stakes and sense of urgency/intensity
@@Crow-qm7zw Right. It's just an eye for an eye leaving the whole world blind. Brilliant idea when first expressed by Ghandi, heavy-handed, obvious message that detracts from the overall game when expressed by Druckmann.
25th Hour is also another perfect film from Spike Lee. Seek it out if you haven’t seen it before. Also Spike Lee is a genius and is continuously misunderstood. I think he doesn’t make bad movies, he simply makes misunderstood movies. Even his Oldboy isn’t bad. It’s just much worse than the original. Lee’s work means a lot to me. So I love most of his work. His Documentary work is essential. He’s one of the greatest filmmakers of all time.
I agree except for Oldboy, I don't even consider it a movie of his, it feels like a studio product for him to get his actual movies funded. But yeah, Spike Lee really be underrated.
I think you should just accept the fact that just because people don't like him, doesn't mean he's misunderstood. It just means that they have a different opinion than yours.
“Movies should be experimental and challenge the audience’s perspective while games should be dumb fun with cliches stories and characters”. Sardonicast 2020.
I just responded to someone’s comment with this same thought, I fully believe there’s a phenomenon that happens when people play video games, they don’t approach storytelling in the same way they would for a TV show or movie or book, simply because it’s interactive. They can’t help but insert themselves and only want to see what they want to see.
Smudge hard disagree, if it wasn’t interactive more people would be capable of viewing it objectively and successfully seeing what the story was doing. They wouldn’t have it in their minds that the creators were trying to “manipulate” them, because as it is now - when Ellie kills a dog we’re the ones pressing square, so when Abby pets that same dog, so many people think it’s the game trying to punish us for our actions when we didn’t have a choice. If it was a passive viewing experience on a TV show, more people would be able to see it for what it actually is: perspective. I never once felt guilty for killing the dog because I understood why Ellie did it in order to survive, just like I understood why Abby played with it because the WLF train them like guard dogs, just like I understood why Joel took Ellie dooming humanity because he loved her; that’s what perspective is. They’re not trying to make anyone feel bad or guilty, they’re just objectively showing us all of the facts so we can see the full picture for what it really is. Eliminating that ‘Us Vs Them’ mentality that our world currently lives in, where Democrats think all Republicans are evil monsters & vice versa. We’re all just flawed people that make mistakes.
Game of Thrones is not a bad show just because Ned Stark dies. Last of Us 2 is not automatically bad because Joel dies. We don’t need basic ass Disney stories for every piece of media
You don't want narrative risks in a sequel? I don't think that argument makes sense. We usually complain about how sequels end up being pointless because they don't do anything new or interesting, instead favoring fan service and pandering to the first. I was glad to find TLOU Part 2 took big risks, but all the complaining about it makes me worried that we will get less creatively risky products in the future Edit: this is in response to Adam's criticism that the narrative risks were inappropriate because the game was a sequel. It is not a claim that the risks taken were good or bad.
Complaining about what they did wrong isn’t bad and if they choose not to make creative risks in the future, that’s on them, not the people complaining. They can take risks, they just need to do it better. “Subverting expectations” and deliberately trying to piss off the fans and stir up controversy was evidently not the way to go.
Agreed. I rather get a bad but risky story than boring, by the number story. Not saying tlou2 is bad tho. Fortunately tlou2 sold really well and I hope less writers pander to the fans in the future
FUN FACT: Neil Druckmann's original outline for the first game was that Tess was going to track Joel across the country and torture him and kill him to get her revenge, but it was dropped because the other writer deemed it too unrealistic for the setting.
I see people keep bringing this up but they always leave out that he said it was unrealistic for her to track them down just because Joel screwed her out of a deal. I think that context helps when comparing the original draft of 1 and the story for Part 2.
Seeing how Ennio Morricone passed recently and you guys have talked about trilogies lately, it would be cool to have a discussion on the Dollars Trilogy.
Yes pleasssse that would be great
Best trilogy ever and it's rarely talked about by big movie RUclipsrs
God, I hope they cover it.
My favorite western is the great silence but yes. Fckn classics and the best western trilogy ever
Three Colors or Before Trilogy would be great too!
Invite the nostalgia critic to let him attack Ralph
He doesn't have the balls. Ralph would make him look like a bigger fool than he already is.
We don’t need that voice in our lives right now
dougs eyes turn black as he unhinges his jaw and vores ralph
@@Dvdfco I would love to hear Doug Walkers terrible hot takes on film's with touchy subject matter with his terrible Looney Toons schtick.
I would love to see him in here, but I'd also like to see if these 3 could even attempt to be nice to him th whole time. It would be cringey as hell
In the Rick and Morty style fan art at the beginning, if you look closely you can see Ralph’s microphone is a much lower quality one than Alex and Adam’s, as well as pointing away from his face, and it’s not even plugged in.
Good eye! There's a bottle of Jenkem on the table near YMS, too.
There’s also a criterion poster of double down
Damn Ralph really took charge with this episode
As long as he thinks before he talks I'm happy with that.
Someone should remind him who runs this podcast.
@Miasma just a thing I've noticed with Ralph where it seems sometimes that he doesn't think before giving his opinion so it's full of generalizations and hyperbole that would be fine if that's actually what he thought that but usually he changes his statement after any critical response. I like the guy when he's clearly focusing and has valuable things to contribute but when he doesn't it can be very distracting. I don't know if it's just that he struggles to articulate his thoughts off the cuff or some days he just doesn't have much to contribute but it's a grievance I have with the podcast despite also not wanting to see it become the Adam show.
@@danielyoung6778 I was actually somewhat touched by Ralph's intro. He spoke from the heart. Maybe it wasn't super composed, but it's a podcast after all. I could tell he has a great deal of respect for the film and its subject matter.
I kinda thoght Mr Themoviemaker should've let the grown ups speak a bit more :/
Ralph: * Analyzing the films meaning, techniques, and purpose. *
Adam: eeeeeeeeeeeeeeehh, yeah it was fun
I wish he went harder on the movie. You can not like a piece of art that you agree with politically. I wanted to hear his opinion but he was walking on eggshells the whole time.
of course he was walking on eggshells. Have you seen the backlash Adum gets any time he voices an opinion on a serious topic? The people who are anti-Adum (be it anti-furries, anti-gay or just someone who doesn't like Adum as a person) will happily and easily strawman him by taking things he said out of context.
There are people out there who don't care to hear opinions of people they disagree with, however well-thought-out those opinions might be. They could and would easily make Adum into a racist, anti-BLM person due to the current political climate if he voiced an honest opinion on this film.
It's kinda sad that we can't voice an opinion on a piece of art because of people that would see you called racist/transphobic/etc etc. but here we are, current year.
Yeah, I'm half black and can admit that the message of the movie is muddled and shitty. If you ever feel like you're unjustified, Riot! I hate that message. I get it. It's asking you "what is the right thing to do?" And they absolutely do not do the right thing. The only thing I like is the characters. They're just acting soft so they don't get backlash.
Cinema Cola The movie doesn’t tell anyone to riot, it’s more posing a “what do you think is the right thing” kind of question, hence the picture of both MLK and Malcolm X at the end, two people with the same goals but different opinions on what’s the right way to achieve them
@@Alberich_Prince_of_Dwarves you sound like a paranoid lunatic. The scary sjw's aren't coming for anyone for not rating a movie highly. If you can't criticize a film without a mob of people calling you racist, maybe you should consider what exactly it is you're saying. Of course, some people are looking for a fight no matter what you do, but it's not difficult to not get called racist by angry mobs.
“It’s so dependent on the first game”
It’s literally called Part 2.
Portal 2 doesn't require you to play Portal 1 first to actually enjoy it
That’s a very specific example. Most sequels across all mediums do require the first to get the proper experience. You should want that from sequels, they should build upon what you already know and feel about the story. You shouldn’t watch Godfather Part 2 without seeing the first. There’s an understood prerequisite with sequels that the viewer understands and is connected with characters going into it. I just felt that in the podcast they really hammered home a totally moot point, the game didn’t need more Joel and Ellie time upfront because the entire first game was 15 hours of Joel and Ellie time that got you to care about them and the game is designed with that in mind.
@@randomguy6679 because sequels and parts are two different aspects to telling a narrative. A sequel implies that the narrative focuses on a new chapter that is its own self contained experience that technically doesn't need previous or later games to play to enjoy. Everything that is mentioned of before or even after (if it works in retrospect) should be clear cut and be its own story. A good example of this mindset is Mad Max and it's sequel The Road Warrior. Do you need to know the first Mad Max to enjoy The Road Warrior? Not really. It's optional solely to gain more context and understanding perhaps of the universe of Mad Max, but Road Warrior is different from the original in more ways than 1 (and arguably loved for that reason).
"Part" implies an ongoing story that apart of a grander narrative where it's continuity is more emphasized. Godfather to Godfather Part 2 is the film equivalent to that because it's apart of a larger narrative and story about...the godfather. You have to be invested in the entire thing or the narrative won't line up or be enjoyed as much because of the larger story.
Portal 1 and 2 are Mad Max and Road Warrior basically. You don't have to play portal 1 to enjoy portal 2 because 2 introduces new mechanics, characters and plot and so on that define it on its own terms without resorting to referring to the first game necessarily to be good. Does playing portal 1 help? Sure but is it necessary to enjoy 2? No. I use to play Resident Evil 4 prior to previous games, thought it was amazing and even after I got around to playing those games, my opinion only made me appreciate it more if anything else.
As for the Last of Us, the part 2 implies The Last of Us is simply more than Joel and Ellie's journey and playing through it helps to understand part 2 better in its narrative. The proposed idea of those on favor of part 2 is suggesting the true "character" of the last of us is merely the world and the people who live in it (essentially it's Game of Thrones). It's argued because the first game introduces Sam and Henry, Bill, David, Tommy and his town, the Pittsburgh hunters and such that create the world of the game as a means of grounding the story and making the believable voice work and script to feel real and genuine. Part 2 pushes that then into the narrative by making the characters, regardless if you like them or not, also have a part in the story because the world of Last of Us is not centered on Joel or Ellie but on the...last of us aka the last of humanity that still keeps surviving and doing horrible things to keep going. Of course parts like sequels can share similar traits of improvements or changed to their scripts and stories but actual narrative structure suggests of course otherwise. In other words, people wanted a Road Warrior, not a Godfather Part 2, from the Last of Us and people dislike that.
The issue is many consider whether The Last of Us even needed a sequel anyways. The ending was perfect because it made one reflect on the situation and merely leave it up to chance while simultaneously tying both Joel and Ellie's relationship, their own arcs of the overall plot (Left Behind is the chunk that was missing for Ellie to really get fleshed out in the main plot for me personally). Basically there was no need for a sequel...but as a "part" narrative that twists every aspect of the original where fans feel the most pain.
Joel Haver here’s a list of a ton of sequels that completely hold up on their own without you needing to play the original and still get the full experience
Gta 5 from every other game in the series
Mario 2 from super Mario bros
Mario 3 from super Mario 2
Super Mario 3d world from super Mario 3d land
Mario Galaxy 2 from Mario Galaxy
A link between worlds from a link to the past
Team fortress 2 from team fortress
Garfield kart furious racing from Garfield kart
most main line final fantasy games
Every animal crossing game
Every Mario kart
Every Mario party
Basically, I think that it’s genre specific; smash bros melee holds up well on its own but I do recognize that sequels to a lot of narrative/story- based single player games do make sense with what you said, but I disagree with “most sequels across all mediums do require the first to get the proper experience.” I could be wrong, but that’s how I see it and I still see where you’re coming from
Yeah, it's like criticising Kill Bill part 2 for being too dependent on the first film
I feel like Adums criticism of Do the right thing is abit shocking, I don't understand how he can hate a movie because there's black people in it.
I was a little surprised when ralph started talking about the film and Adum repeatedly screamed the n-word over him, nonetheless I managed to hear Ralph out so it wasn't too much of a bother
I think you guys are on the wrong channel lol
Kid_Amnesiac Hmm I think they’re joking
Twin Kids I think he’s referencing the comments section on The Needle Drop
Did you even watch the video or did you just fail to scrape up enough brain cells to pay attention?
We already have a The Last Of Us movie, it's called Logan.
And Children of Men
And The Road
or Leon-The Professional
The Last of Us is just Children of Men and 28 Days Later combined into a game at the end of the day
shrek 2
I really enjoyed the game but your criticisems for it are some of the best ive seen on youtube, i actually understand why you dont like it... most people ive talked to just say something like they shouldnt have killed joel or i dont care what they tried to do with abby...
Another lazy criticism I’ve seen that I didn’t like was “you should’ve gotten to kill Abby at the end. Otherwise, what was the point of Ellie’s long journey?” This criticism annoys me because it completely ignores Ellie’s character arc, her growth, the resolution of her arc, and the themes of the game. So many people play bc “haha violence fun, pew pew” without thinking about the message of the story. Or they’ll see a sad scene and think “wow so deep” without thinking about what it actually means. This criticism reminds me of people who would look at the ending of Moonlight (2016) “that’s it? They just hold each other and it ends? What was the point?”
@aq Br Agreed, the worse part of this game to me is the pacing. It honestly felt like the game was never going to end at times. Red dead 2 is a very long game but playing it honestly felt shorter because it was so engaging, TLOU 2 on the other hand felt like it was 50 hours long or something lol.
@A Light Skin With Taste "You went all that way to make a cure in The Last of Us 1? And you don't even make it???"
@A Light Skin With Taste That's honestly fair enough. I have my issues with the story too (Some characters had no real reason to be there, for example, Yarra), and the pacing is a nightmare. Gameplay is legit some of the best Naughty Dog has done and the graphics are beautiful too
@@monty_coolmccool there was a legitimate twist at the end with the fact that 11/11 previous patients had died making a cure and that it wasn’t until the hospital that they mention the surgery will kill Ellie. Which means if she dies and no cure is made her life is for literally nothing. Not the same thing.
In this episode the boys talk about a piece of media that sparked debate from the most oppressed minority group of all.
They also talk about Do The Right Thing
Gamers rise up
this says a lot about our sardonity
@Ozymandias Nullifidian What
@Ozymandias Nullifidian what
I bet if anyone who's not paying attention to all that bullshit actually just sat down and played the game they'd find it fine. Does some things good and something's bad, probably some pacing issues and decent ideas done poorly that people on all sides of the positive and negative spectrum are overreacting to. I feel like that's going to be my take in about a decade when I actually bother playing that series of I remember to and am not dead.
You guys should talk about Boogie Nights, since Adam mentioned he hasn't seen it...
One of my favorites
@Jake Boos Boogie Night and Inherent Vice double feature would be great since they're both set in the 70s. Also there are very few discusions on Inherent Vice so I'd be interesting to hear their takes.
Jake Boos yes yes YES
Timestamp for mobile users:
00:00 - Intro
01:20 - Do the Right Thing (Spoilers)
37:32 - The Last of Us Part II (Spoilers)
01:30:20 - Questions
Wheres the recommendation
@@deadbars8755 it's in the description.
a tip of the fedora to you, good sir
thank you
It's an interesting perspective, but I think Adam's review is a little biased due to his heinous racism.
@@Dvdfco
I don't know if this could be bait,
but I must say this is a bad take.
Not to be rash,
But your comment's trash,
Now apologize for OP's sake.
@@Dvdfco Smarter then you that's for sure.
Lol
@Luigi Nastro I need context
@@grrggrrg4805 They just said Adum was being racist, but I'm guessing the replier either regretted posting that or changed their mind, so it's all good now
Can we just agree that between Do the Right Thing and Breaking Bad alone, Giancarlo Esposito has quite the range?
I honestly could not believe that was him
Sesame Street aswell
that man is so fun to watch.
and don't forget his roles in once upon a time :')
He’s in a ton is early Spike Lee joints. Check them out he’s always been good and plays so many different characters
The Hunchback of Notre Dame would be a near masterpiece (that could possibly rival The Lion King) if the gargoyles were removed.
That's basically how I feel about all Disney movies (barring The Lion King, funnily enough). Almost every single Disney movie would be better with the comic relief removed. It's tantamount to heresy to say this, but I think Aladdin would be better without Robin Williams too.
It is a near masterpiece, and the only reason it isn't a flawless masterpiece is because of the gargoyles
@@mrvideogamevideos Lol theres no Aladdin without Robbin Williams
There’s quite a few Disney films that are pretty much perfect that didn’t come out of the 90s.
@@mrvideogamevideos I think Hercules has too much comic relief, to the point that removing it would remove damn near the whole movie/story. It's almost non-stop bullshiting from everybody.
The new channel logo looks amazing but I’m giving it a 6/10.
Closer to a 7 than a 5.
I was at cannes
And a 6/10 is S T I L L G O O D G U Y S
A sixxxxxx out of teeeeeeen.
I really wanna watch "do the right thing" now. It's so strange and interesting about how the concept of race has evolved since the early 20th century. All my grandparents/great grandparents lived in Brooklyn - and there was the Italian parts, the Irish parts, the Jewish parts... and those were all considered different races. Then later on, they kind of melded together a little bit. I wish I could peek back in time into the communities my relatives a few generations ago lived.
I like how Adum has the same problems with Do The Right Thing as The Last of Us Part II
Adum: “I will play it again on a higher difficulty.”
Wow, he might even turn it up to normal!
Wow, super original, did you come up with that on your own?
Ralph did a really great job with his analysis of Do the Right Thing this episode. A lot of the time on the podcast he seems pretty casual and always corrects himself when the others bring up a point, which is totally fine, but he really carried the discussion today. He made me view the film in a different light and even appreciate it more
Taking Martin Shorts robot character out of Treasure Planet would make it an almost perfect movie
Maybe give the protagonist a bump in personality to make him more engaging as a character himself rather than simply when around the Long John Silver as well.
Daniel Young yea because having his father leave him only to find a father figure in the antagonist. Then becoming his own roll model by fighting against him and coming out a better man is nothing
I like that wacky robot. Keep him in!
I think Adam would hate 'She's Gotta Have it' I'm not gonna lie...
Yeah that's fair if he did. I recall liking it ok but it had some stuff in it that didn't offend me but simply didn't work imo and hasn't aged well. The female lead was solid but it's definitely stands out among the "good" Spike Lee movies as being the weakest link.
Wonder what he would think about Chi-Raq. That's also a unsubtle film but it's the most WACKY.
Why do you say that?
Well, it’s not a good movie so lol.
@@alexmaverick6647 eh, imo it was great and i really liked it
Neil Druckmann knew from the beginning it was going to divide the fan base, he told it at least 3 years ago...
I still liked the game for what it was, but it was dark... Conpared to the first one, which i played at least 10times, i dont even know if i will play Part II again ...
Yeah, I understand if they don't like what they did but I think it's kinda naive to assume no thought was put into the reception of a game that took that many years of development (by one of the biggest videogames company in the world) and broke a sales record.
@@martaperez1242 exactly. There is still lots of props to give to them. I dont regret buying the special edition one bit. I hope it is the kind of story that will grow on me with time
I disagree with nearly all of their grievances with the game. When Adum mentioned they were naive I immediately thought about Neil saying he knew half the people would be upset years ago.
They knew.
@Dale Ritter Lol what?
@Dale Ritter that’s not what’s wrong with the game, that’s just you having an infantile, toddler brain understanding of gender and body agency
I agree with some of Adam's criticisms of Do The Right Thing and I respect him for not kissing the movie's ass while at the same time not undermining the important message.
Time to get Druckmanized
Still waiting for Chris Stuckmann’s review of it.
Carter Lovejoy Highly doubt he’s gonna review it. This game is just way too controversial.
Tell that to Joel's snapped neck.
@johnnycoxville13 I’d like him to though. He might be mixed on it but I still want to hear his take on it.
@Anomalisa I’d like to think he’s still trying to finish the game. I mean right now he’s reviewing the Indiana Jones series at the moment as well as films that have since gone to digital/streaming but maybe he’ll drop his review of TLOU2 at some point. But then again maybe not.
I hate how the concept of “review bombing” allows companies and journalists to ignore all criticism
It’s a scapegoat, review sites get a huge stack of cash from Sony to claim that people are review bombing their console’s flagship game
Ghostbusters 2016 established the corporate model for how to profit off controversy. Incorporate diversity, exaggerate the number of bigots, call anyone who criticizes your product a bigot, profit. Capitalism will commodify anything.
Apollo For a Better Future couldn’t have said it better myself
This is the best discussion of TLOU 2 on RUclips thank you guys for not overreacting and doing a thoughtful discussion weighing its pros/cons.
Holy shit the fanart just keeps getting better and better.
Yeah our bois are back with another epic Sardonicast. Always brings a smile on my face when Sardonicast pops up. Thank you.
After watching Shazam (weird, I know) I realised that if they’d have just started off with Abby as a small kid without context, we’d have felt more sympathy for her. We play as Abby from her being a kid to when Joel kills her dad. We see her struggles without knowing who she even is, we start to feel for her and her dad. Then there’s the revelation that her dad was the doctor. That Abby run is 20 minutes at most, we know who she is and her motives. That’s a better expectation subversion in my opinion.
You're not supposed to know anything about her at first. You're supposed to be in Ellies shoes.
Too be fair, Abby's arms being jacked was a result of years of training to find and kill Joel who killed her father. People may find a muscular armed woman amusing, fine, but it has a significance to Abby's character.
Everyone will derive different meaning from these small details based on their opinion.
They can hate it or like it.
But in the 1st part most couldn't help but like what they saw.
I'm sure if her character was better shown and introduced most people would like it, atleast tolerate it.
But they blundered it. They didn't have a good story to work it so they just kept pulling the guilt card of "the person you killed had a life too so feel bad, revenge sux" to forward the plot?
Ofcourse this is my opinion. The game is great but they could've done much much much better. Sorry if you were not expecting a big reply!
Noob Noob gotta disagree that it’s just about “feel bad revenge sucks” I never once felt bad, I felt like I was learning a different perspective and given all of the information to understand both sides. Yeah revenge sucks, but forgiveness is healing & having empathy & understanding different perspectives will bring peace. When I say I never once felt bad, for example I didn’t feel bad that Ellie killed the dog because I understood that she did it to survive, I didn’t feel bad that Abby played with the dog because I understood that the WLF train dogs & so therefore also play with them, that’s what perspective is. Just like I understood why Joel took Ellie and doomed humanity out of love for her. I didn’t feel bad or guilty, I just understood all character’s decisions even flawed ones
@@uhuhuh1966 huh...interesting! Yeah maybe you're right. I get what you're talking about but I guess the game and what it wanted to portray didn't sit right with me. Whatevs. Thanks for the insight bruv.
@@noobnoob8922 I think a lot of what the game tried to do was to make u feel uneasy and uncomfortable. Because that's what the journey of Revenge is like. Ellie's revenge plot was not satisfying at all. She'd come back to Dina and feel terrible abt what she had done to find abby. The only reason she continues on was because she felt like it was the only way to get ride of the guilt caused by not being able to forgive Joel because he died. What ellie should've done her entire journey was to move on and be with Dina and other people who cared abt her. Instead, this revenge mission only pushes them away and takes away Ellie's humanity. Abby's journey had to start with her killing Joel in order to show us what it's like if ellie ever did get her revenge. Abby never got over her dad even after she took her revenge, but her journey in saving people who she was supposed to hate was her redemption arc in realizing that forgiveness was the key to coping with the loss of her father. Telling her side of the story was not only just for empathy for empathy's sake, it was to illustrate growth and the theme that forgiveness triumphs over revenge in dealing with loss and guilt. Sorry for the long one too.
Noob Noob anytime :) thank you for listening
My problem is Joel and Ellie didn’t even start to bond until more than halfway through the first game and the first game is kinda short. It’s just weird that they killed him that early on, there was so much more story and arcs to explore. Maybe they should’ve made TLOU2 a prequel to the first game with Joel and Tommy. Like RDR2. 20 years.. there’s so much story to cover before the first games timeline.
Last of us 2 is basically the game equivalent of the last jedi. Half love it and half hate it. Story drastically subverted expectations and the director and cast are getting harassed online.
@Los Angeles Lakers Uber Alles And both are championed by a side that claims to be anti racist but would not hesitate to be racist towards whites and when confronted that they're being racist they would either laugh or state that it's not possible to be racist to towards whites. Or by a side that loves overt left wing ideology into all media and when people don't like that they call them buzzwords
@@Lightitupp1 No one is being racist towards whites, the people who claim something as ridiculous this were the first to get pissy about the game.
I have never heard anybody who hates it complain about it regarding sexism/transphobia(??) and I have no idea what racism has to do with any of it. And I have heard plenty of people who hate the game for legitimate reasons
@Los Angeles Lakers Uber Alles your profil picture match your comment perfectly
@@george-xcx I understand that a 2min read is difficult for a simpleton like you
1:20:25 what Adam says here sums up how stupid people fighting over TLOU 2 is
Timestamps:
00:00 - Intro
01:20 - Do the Right Thing (Spoilers)
37:32 - The Last of Us Part II (Spoilers)
01:30:20 - Questions
Originally, they wanted to introduce Abby earlier, and she would have been in Jacksonville for a while, dancing with joel and all. They should have introduced and makes us like her before.
Part II just felt like Part III...
It really should've been part III
The whole point of the story is breaking down “Us vs Them” mentality, learning to view “the other” as just normal people like everyone else. If we already knew Abby from the very beginning we would’ve already formed empathy for her and therefore wouldn’t have been able to see her as “the other”. The beginning places you squarely in Ellie’s shoes “Us” and hating Abby and not knowing anything about her “Them”. It’s the same mentality in today’s politics, how Republicans only view Democrats as evil monsters & Vice versa. It’s shining a spotlight on that and tearing it down, asking us to have empathy for “the other” and learn their perspectives.
@uhuhuh1966 umm..... I think you might be giving the games writers a little too much credit there. Shit ain’t that deep fam
Dil’Witch Spahlin how? I provided examples that supports my point, can you do the same in disproving it? Didn’t you ever wonder why there was a war going on between Scars & Wolves? It’s that same Us Vs Them mentality on a larger scale, it’s not that it’s “deep”, it’s the theme of the entire story: empathy, perspective, forgiveness, how far we’ll go to gain closure, revenge doesn’t heal etc.
@@dilwitchspahlin4761 You think they're reaching but you're mistaken in believing these concepts are even remotely farfetched, hard to grasp, or irrelevant to survival games as a whole.
The HBO show, Druckmann said Joel and Ellie will be in it. I'm still interested in it since they have the Craig Mazin (Chernobyl)
Is the show a adaption of the games? Or is it a spin off in the same universe? Kind of like how everyone thought the Watchmen HBO show was going to be a adaptation of the graphic novel, but it was a sequel instead.
YummyBacon it’s an adaptation
@@TheRealKG912 He probably should adapt it and improve upon it's flaws. That might win the fanbase back. Remember how Captain America: Civil War adapted a pretty widely disliked comic book storyline into one of the most well received MCU films? I honestly feel like one could adapt The Last of Us Part 2 into a good season of television.
@@rsfilmdiscussionchannel4168 Yes i think so too, he could do a season alone for just the stuff between the first game and the second. A smoother transition.
Plus he can always deviates if he wants from the games!
@@williamdono You also wouldn't have to literally play as Joel's killer, you'd probably just follow them narratively.
Adam, I get that you didn't love Do The Right Thing, but was it strictly necessary to appear on webcam for the first time on this podcast just to model your white hood
In all fairness he clearly put a lot of effort into it. I think he even ironed it just before the podcast because it looks a little damp for the first ten minutes.
I have a really hard time figuring out if your comment is sarcastic or not.
I almost thought this is a fantano video, then i remembered he showed up in episode 5 so this comment made sense here
The reason Ellie doesn't hesitate when killing soldiers and seraphites but she does when killing Abby is purely because of self defense. The soldiers and the seraphites wanted to kill her but when she's going after Abby she's the one attacking. I don't think the whole "lol I'm gonna kill this guy and his dog with a moltov coctel to see them burn" approach is canon at all and I can suspend my disbelief in that. Also the reason Ellie leaves Dina and the baby is not bad, she thinks her PTSD will only go away if Abby dies but when she's about to kill her she realizes that killing Abby solves nothing and the only way to get over it is forgiveness since she couldn't forgive Joel for what he did on the hospital.
“Coctel”
@@haerfgvbag7050 Cóctel
Coke-tales
Kinda wished they talked about Da 5 Bloods in this episode. Oh well.
Only Ihe has seen it I think
@@ezwar99 really liked ths visual presentation. The aspect ratio change and the use of picture/footage kinds remind me of Gus Van Sant film. The action scenes feel a bit amateutish,although that might be intentional. Despite liking the characters dynamic,The movie feels really long for sure. Some moments you are really into and others your are kinda lost.
@@ezwar99 Same. Spikes unsubtle directing style generally works better with comedy, felt preachy as hell in D5B. Also not a fan of how he no longer relies on the audience to make connections between his films and real life, instead screaming it in their faces. Lindo was good, that's the only thing that wowed me.
I wanna revisit that movie cause I been listening to Marvin Gaye's what's going on a bunch which is where I believe all the song choices come from.
It's the best movie of the year in my opinion
Agreed, a huge amount of improvement would have happened if they restructured the events and cut down on Abby's part.
Between this and Game of Thrones there seems to emphasis on shock for the sake of shock.
I agree. I´m still trying to figure out what the optimal structure would be like though.
jstarwars360 Tlou2 is no where near as bad as GoT season 8. At least it had themes.
@@YTWanderer i mean optimal structure would be around making it genuinely hard for the player to kill Abby, but making it justified. But of course this would require quality writing, and Neil Druckmann letting people explore a story (instead of forcing people to follow literally just one path.)
Adam trying his hardest to not get cancelled
25th Hour is one of the greatest (and underrated) Spike Lee movie, I would definitely recommend that one...
Damn this is the third ihe podcast to talk about TLOU2 , how much can he take
Is there another one besides JAR?
@@zacozacoify I think he meant the last sardonicast episode, they briefly talked about it but didn't go in full depth because none of them had finished it yet
@@Properland no I was joking about him being a part of the official ( -minecraft- ) podcast
I've heard many people say they shouldn't have killed joel right at the beginning, which doesn't make any sense to me. The last scene they show is the night before his death, where ellie is finally able to maybe forgive him one day. That's what made it even worse for her. She finally wanted to forgive him or at least try and abby took that from her.
If there was more time between them after that scene where they get along again, it wouldn't have nearly as much impact.
Well said dude
baole58 I guess I played through the first game a few days before the release of 2 so that death hit kinda hard
You mean the kind of flashback that her character conveniently forgets for the duration of the game in whose narrative she acts as a paragon of vengeance until the plot demands that her arc come to an end?
Nope, I understood why it happened but I still think he was killed off too soon. But everyone is entitled to their interpretation and opinions I suppose.
@@Hoganply She didn't forget about that moment. She just decided to apply it to Abby as well because she could understand why Abby did what she did just as much as she could understand why Joel did what he did.
The first time I saw Do the Right Thing was literally days before George Floyd was murdered I'm not joking. I was just watching the AFI 100 movies list and that one I just happened to watch before it all went down. The fact that it came out 30 years ago and it still rings so true to what's happening today is so haunting and baffling to me.
He murdered himself! Cardiovascular disease and a swollen heart are life threatening under extreme stress!
@@DANCERcow There was a trial and the cops went to prison.
I'd just like to throw out here that Alex and his brother talked about the last of us part II in a standalone video on Jarcast and went into incredible depth about what they felt did and didn't work. It was roughly equal in length to this video and quite enjoyable for someone like me who hasn't played or watched any of the game.
It’s dependent on the first one to have emotional context. It’s called the last of us part II. Sequels work with some inherent knowledge that you come in with.
I would argue that the best sequels stand well on their own. A lot of people I know love this game, some even prefer it to the first game. I haven’t met anyone that thinks the narrative and script/dialogue is better in the second, even if they prefer it.
Do you need to watch the first Alien to enjoy Aliens? Do you need to watch the first Terminator to enjoy Terminator 2?
I don’t get the argument of them saying part 2 relied on you playing the first game to feel anything for Joel’s death isn’t that the point? Realistically who is going into part 2 without having played the first or even watched a LP. I personally didn’t mind Joel’s death and was emotionally affected by it (although I do agree with Adam that I should’ve happened later)
It’s nonsense
Part 1 is a self contained story, it has a definitive ending. Part 2 is a new story with new arcs.
If your complete story doesn't work unless the audience has experienced another complete story, it's a bad story.
You don't need to watch Alien to care about what happens in Aliens.
The problem with making statements like "If you do x it's a bad story" is that there is no objective standard of writing, and it only works when you cherry pick examples to support the point. You can also cherry pick counter examples to prove the opposite, for example. Return of the King is a great film but it doesn't really work unless you've seen the previous films. Same with Empire Strikes Back or Avengers Endgame.
Charlie Kaufman's films are full of things that many would call "bad writing" and they still work really well, like Adaptation or Being John Malkovich.
Also this presumes that the story doesn't work for anyone who hasn't played the first game, which I also don't think is accurate. There is enough explanation in the game so that someone who hasn't played part I could still follow the story, although they obviously won't be as familiar with the characters.
I've never understood why it's so hard for people to just say they didn't like something and instead need to try and invent rules to "prove" that the thing they don't like is objectively bad.
Return of the King is not a complete story, it's act 3 of LOTR.
Endgame isn't a complete story, it's the last episode of the Avengers cinematic TV show.
Empire is also not a complete story, it's act 2 of the OT.
Those aren't good examples, that's why I used Alien and Aliens, both of which had definitive beginnings and endings.
Most people have seen Aliens before Alien and it worked for them just fine because of the self containment.
Joel dying wasn't the problem, it's how he died
Ralph’s break down of Do The Right Thing popped off hard.
I am very surprised with the way they are criticizing the game and talking about how a sequel shouldn't do this to its fanbase. Involving the fanbase to a narrative is basically pandering and letting artists express themselves in their art form is essential. I feel like the narrative was very rich and nuanced and wasn't really "manipulative", Ellie wasn't portrayed as bad, and Abby wasn't portrayed as good. "Oh, Ellie killed a dog" that was self defense btw. Almost all the kills were self defense or they made us understand why she had to do that (Nora's death was there to make us feel as uncomfortable as Ellie, it's an interactive technique to connect the player and the character, and they displayed that throughout the game smartly). Same goes to Abby, and how Abby's story mirrors Joel's. I think the risks they took paid off from a narrative standpoint and failed to a lot of people, which is a common case with art and it is fair if people dislike it. It isn't really for everyone, but I am glad they took these risks to give us a narrative worth exploring. Also killing Joel early on is to challenge the player's bias and wanted the player to overcome that specific challenge. Which was brilliantly done in my opinion. Btw big fan of you three. I love arthouse films as much as Adum. Keep up the good work.
Agree whole heartedly with this. The risk paid off for me as well. To be honest, replaying the first game right before the second, the first game is lacking on substantial story. Nothing of actual importance occurs until the very end, narratively. The relationship between Joel and Ellie is the strongest part of the original. The sequel raises the narrative up to full ten.
@@salmonsdontdie4952 100% with all of this. A lot of people are appreciating Part II, and even more so than the first, but the vocal majority dislike as it seems. Which is fine, it isn't for everyone, I just want people to be respectful to one another and not be toxic.
Time Codes:
Intro - 00:00
Do the Right Thing (Spoilers) - 01:20
The Last of Us Part II (Spoilers) - 37:32
Q&A Section - 1:30:20
What movie would be improved by completely removing one character? - 1:30:33
What are your favorite Hollywood feuds? - 1:32:56
What book/comic book/game do you think is unadaptable into a movie? - 1:38:11
The legacy of Ennio Morricone - 1:43:53
Alex’s film recommendation (Incendies) - 1:47:42
Ty
"TLOU2 depends so much on the audience having played the first game." This is NEVER a valid criticism. OF COURSE a sequel expects you to be familiar with the events of the previous story. You don't just skip to the last chapter of a book and complain, "they really wanted me to care about these characters i just met? They actually expected me to go back and read the 20 previous chapters in the book before this one? God, so manipulative! Why couldn't this last chapter completely stand on its own?!"
See how insane this argument sounds? Adam says this all the time about the MCU movies, which is easily the weakest thing to criticize ANY of them for.
I don't think this is necessarily true for all sequels. It is completely possible for a sequel to be made to stand on its own without having to watch the previous entries. Blade Runner 2049 is a perfect example of this. Of course this isn't the case for a lot of sequels, but I feel that The Last Of Us is a series that could've DEFINITELY had a sequel like this. The ending of the first game was so perfect that, for a lot of people, including me, a sequel wasn't even necessary, so I think a sequel that could stand on it's own was more than possible for this series.
I think 'a sequel isn't the place to take narrative' risks was the real worst take here. Almost every other point they made was understandable but this one is baffling. It feels like the kind mentality that keeps all of the marvel movies as cookie-cutter copies of each other.
IMO a sequel is a great place to take a risk. You have the work of establishing a universe out of the way so you can take things in all sorts of creative and risky directions while playing off of audience expectations a lot easier than with an original IP. I would much rather see a sequel take a risk and fail then play it safe and be the same thing we've already seen.
@@topgun077 that was poor wording but I think it's because the risks completely change the direction of the first one. The best way naughty dog takes risks is telling a conventional story with unconventional beats: the ending of the last of us is one of my absolute favourites because of it's moral ambiguity. There's nothing really like that in tlou 2, in terms of quality anyway. They try to double down with the ambiguity by making Abby the playable character but it feels like a parody of presenting a moral conundrum. The ending to the first game lets players make up their own mind as to whether Joel did the right thing. The Ellie/Abby dichotomy feels Naughty Dog holding our hands and telling us we can't jump on the jumping castle because we'll break something. It's risk for the sake of risk. Think of Undead Nightmare, that was a risk that paid off by completely flipping the script and subverting expectations as it's own stand alone adventure that also expanded on the first one for it's own alternative universe
@@jordannewitt I see your point and I'm not arguing whether the risk works or not (I think it works spectacularly but I fully understand why other people don't), but with the concept that the sequel shouldn't have taken a narrative risk which was the point Adam was making. This feels at odds with his general outlook on film where he bemoans the cookie cutter and cash grab nature of sequels and comic book films. If he's now saying he'd prefer developers stick to a formula I'm kind of confused what he really wants.
Like it's totally understandable to say that you don't think the risk ND took here paid off. But saying developers shouldn't take risks with existing IP is like saying directors shouldn't take existing properties in new directions. Even if I had hated the game I'd still be impressed with ND for trying something new instead of just slightly iterating on a formula like they did with the first three Uncharted games.
Any chapter which isn't internally satifying isn't a very good chapter.
Adam's biggest issue with the last of us part 2: the brick in ellie's face in the surgery scene was not there
Question for everyone, is deceptive marketing a good reason to dislike the game? I haven’t played Part I or Part II. Marvel used deceptive marking very similar to this game’s marketing for Infinity War and End Game, and people still love those. They did it for those movies so they wouldn’t reveal anything important, couldn’t the same be said for this game?
I think it’s a fair criticism of the marketing, but not the game overall. Halo 5 also had some fairly deceptive marketing and that kinda bugged my when I played it, but I wouldn’t say it took away from the game too much.
The difference was the big twist at the end of "Infinity War" also had some form of resolution that they could take. When you finished that movie you knew there was something they could do to fix things and you still had a sense of hope. "The Last of Us Part 2" doesn't give a sense of hope after you get to "that part" and only tries to subvert expectations rather than build and interesting or dynamic narrative. Think "The Last Jedi" and how it really didn't have a conclusive vision, just set piece and event after event. Some parts are good, objectively good, but the whole experience doesn't combine into anything more than a confused mess.
Because the problems people are having with the Last of Us Part II isn’t just its marketing, but also its treatment of the main characters. The marketing for Infinity War and Endgame was kinda deceptive, but it didn’t really deviate too much from what people were expecting
da jokah baby Mask of Infamy BBOGZ are you all saying the deceptive marketing is dependent on whether it was justified to tell the story properly?
Evening News No what I’m trying to say was that the “deceptive” marketing for those two movies were really minor, like they were mostly just background changes or something. It wasn’t like in TLOU II where that one guy put his hand on Ellie’s back and they made it seem like it was Joel’s to prey on people’s emotional attachment to the first game, and only for the game to ignore it and do something else. People expected an action adventure for Endgame and such and they got it
This conversation is as natural as a white man's dialogue in a Spike Lee Movie.
Ring racist=unnatural
I really enjoyed the narrative of TLOU2. It was pretty disjointed at times but I really enjoyed what they were going for thematically. I did like playing as Abby and seeing what she went through, and I definitely didn't want to see her and Ellie kill each other by the end. I was much more satisfied with the ending of this game than I was with the first.
Totally agree. I'm honestly surprised these folks are criticising it as much as they are
@@benchesh because it's shit. The game tries to tell you revenge is bad, but revenge worked out perfectly for Abby. Revenge rules for her
@@StEvEn420BrUlE I think you've misundestood the entire story
@@bencheshhow exactly?
@@theitalianfukr4270 There's a bit more nuance than "revenge bad". Revenge does not work out for Abby or Ellie at all. Revenge isn't what saves them from killing each other at the end of the story. It's like if I said revenge works out for Anakin Skywalker in Star Wars because of what happens at the end of Episode 6.
Joel’s presence was felt through the entire game. Ellie’s journey is like a discovery into identifying who he wronged, while at the same time unraveling Ellie enforcing his same tactics in getting information through interrogation and exacting revenge, mirroring his already passed on bad decision making before meeting Ellie. Their relationship was already on muddy ground at the end of the last game, and this awkwardness is reflected through Joel in the beginning flashback with the guitar. Then later through Ellie’s eventual seed of doubt in the birthday memory, then the catalyst moment at the hospital where their relationship changes completely. Ellie specifically remembering certain flashbacks over others is the angst she has about herself in how she felt she treated him close to his final moments, like at the dance. I think this was really well done with the chilling jump frames of Joel’s corpse being most that she sees due to guilt in not properly forgiving him, Abby took that forgiveness away from Ellie and it’s only until the end where she can properly forgive herself for it. So I don’t see how Joel and Ellie’s relationship wasn’t properly handled, anything more would’ve felt like fan service. I respect that they chose to opt out a hug from both of them on the porch, it didn’t feel realistic at that stage. I don’t see how people thought this games story was going to be anything other than around the consequences of Joel’s actions at the end of the last game, and how it was going to be held accountable. Abby wasn’t handled poorly to me either, her gradual increase in physique and insistence on going to training made her blind to revenge instead of focusing on the relationships she could’ve had, especially with Owen. The nuance in Laura Bailey’s performance especially in Joel’s death wasn’t this one dimensional thing, and from that point for her character it effects her relationships with friends from her faction, so her redemption arc in fixing those relationships ends up getting her mixed with the Seraphites, but most importantly ex Seraphites who she can identify with as her own faction has turned on her too. The war between the WLF and the Seraphites perfectly showing the fueds that can happen between two perspectives. Abby wouldn’t have had her redemption in finding the Fireflies had Ellie not freed her. Both couldn’t have redemption without each other, and this is all from Joel’s actions. Everything you enjoy from a gameplay level is all meant to reflect the different themes and motivations of different perspectives, especially through parallels of both sides if you look enough. So yes violence begets more violence, and its those that redeem you that can help you get out of that cycle of rage. In the end for Ellie and those around her like Tommy who is permanently scarred forever, it serves as a reminder on the damage of revenge on yourself and your relationships with those around you. Ellie at least is at a place where she can move on and put it behind her.
This is pretty much my opinion as well. The game has a lot of depth for the characters when you look at it closely.
Wow i was really surprised with the gameplay comments because i had literally zero difficult with the first one and struggle with some parts here, and also felt more a horror game for me because i got more scarred in this one(stalkers got me really nervous) and the ammo managment felt for important. I didn’t love the story or anything but i really loved the level design, specially the sky bridge, the isle on fire(the hole cult remembered me a zelda tribe) and the floded areas
While I disagree with nearly all of their criticisms of TLOU2, it’s stated in an understandable and interesting way. I can easily see how they arrived at their opinions and feelings. If all TLOU2 criticism was this thoughtful and interesting, I don’t think fans of TLOU2 would be so annoyed with those who dislike or even hate the game.
What’s this? A genuine disagreement while understanding perspective? Can’t be
Theres plenty of good criticism towards TLOU2. Mostly from niche game journalist articles and people more aware of the Isreal politics in the game.
@@Tamacat388 Israel politics? You mean Dina being Jewish? How is that Israel politics?
@@CayeDaws The entire conflict between Seattle is a metaphor for the Israel-Palenstine conflict according to the games own writer and director and his experience living in the West Bank as a teenager and his regret over wanting to kill a bunch of Palestinians after footage of them lynching two Israeli soldiers in 2000.
@@Tamacat388 I mean I can’t blame them for executing 2 Israeli Soldiers. That’s war. Especially since then Israel is on the war path to exterminate Palestine.
incendies...holy shit! my wife and I watched it years back never having heard of Denis Villeneuve and we were blown away by that movie. we still talk about it now. made me pay attention to his films since then. very talented director
My favorite Denis movie. No other film has left as big an impression on me as Incendies.
@@lokbatan left a huge impact on me
"Why am I racist?" Adum Johnston 2018
But he's not.
randomguy6679 it’s a reference
@@randomguy6679 lol its from the oscars 2018 video he made, during mary j blige's performance someone in the chat called adum racist in some way and adum just blurted out "why am i racist?"
I don't know if Adam reads comments, but Drake's brother was mentioned in previous games and Uncharted 4 has the Drake's theme aswell (it's called A Thief's End btw), it's just recomposed by Henry Jackman to be more dramatic rather than having playful tone, cause it's last game in franchise with Nate
No one seems to understand how the fight with Abby at the end can’t be compared to all previous enemies. Previous enemies you had to take down out of self defense, meanwhile Abby let Ellie live TWICE! Ellie forced her to fight by threatening Lev, it is not a 1:1 equivalent to all previous enemies at all. Ellie stopped because she finally could see Abby’s perspective, took pity on her because she saw how revenge brought Abby no happiness only suffering, could see herself & Joel in Abby’s & Lev’s relationship, knew the cycle wouldn’t end because Lev would hunt her down in the future for killing Abby...all of this understanding rushed into her when she had Abby dead in the water and felt no satisfaction, while also hitting rock bottom with abandoning Dina & JJ. Saying letting Abby go doesn’t make sense after killing people to get to her, people who were trying to kill you/her also, is just asinine to me
Yeah it's like the difference between defensive violence and straight up murder. Completely different headspaces that require different personality types.
Exactly. Ellie killing Abby is precisely what wouldn't have made sense to me, specially after playing as Abby and realizing (if the game did it right for you) how ellie was blinded by revenge. It would have felt as if the whole story the game wanted to tell you had been for nothing.
if you really wanted to, you could attempt to stealth your way through the entire game so not every kill was self defense. also, ellie torturing nora was most definitely not necessary so ellie isn’t a stranger to killing people for selfish reasons.
Reyla Games ellie wasn’t a stranger to ‘straight up murder’ if you recall the scene with nora, wouldn’t really have been out of character for her to kill abby
mel Ellie was capable of torturing Nora because Nora was already dead from spores, it was easier for her to rationalize it to herself and even still it took a toll on her. She didn’t attempt to torture Owen & Mel, and that scene was even a mirror to Joel torturing the two men in the first game. If Nora had given up Abby’s location and not gotten infected by spores, Ellie would’ve let her go, same goes for Owen & Mel if they hadn’t attacked her.
SPOILERS for The Last of Us Part 2
I wish someone would talk about how Druckman and Gross comment on cycles of violence. I wish someone would discuss how they critique tribalism, or denial. Talk about Torres and the rabbi. Talk about how Ellie insists to Dina that "they're not like us" while mirroring Isaac ("Give me 5 minutes alone with them and my knife and I'll tell you if they're lying or not"). Talk about how Ellie is the moth drawn to the flame that leaves her forever scarred. Talk about how the trading cards and state coins Ellie and Abby respectively collect reinforce the ideas of tribes and territories. Talk about how Abby, Ellie and Tommy miss out on happy, romantic relationships because they can't let go of the need for revenge. Talk about how our inability to see humanity in "the other" is not just a stumbling block for our characters but for us as the audience as well. Talk about something other than how bad you felt when your video-game-man died.
I will admit that this game demands a lot from you as a "player". Much of Druckman and Gross's text lies outside of the cut-scenes. If you haven't payed close attention to the inter-character chatter during the "walking sections" you will miss many key details. If you don't read the notes and letters found throughout the environments, you will miss much of the thesis. This is a game. Your interaction is required. It is more demanding than a film.
You talk about how this story makes the audience FEEL BAD and how that's a bad thing. I don't believe Druckman and Gross are asking that you empathize with Abby, or Ellie or anyone for that matter. They are putting these characters, their actions and their words in front of you and hoping that you will be able to analyze them against the backdrop of a "tribalistic", dystopian world and draw meaning from what you find.
If you can't get over the whole "I don't like what they did to my favorite video game characters" thing, you will never be able to successfully examine this game / story / plot.
Really well put!!
Wow this is everything I saw in the game wtf
I'm sorry but I just don't see it as "more demanding" or "more intelligent" than a good movie. If it was any other medium, it would be an average to sub-par story with a disproportionate level of self-indulgent violence.
It just keeps on screaming its obvious messages of "humanity does bad things, let's do all of them and pretend we are asking questions about it when we are just indulging in it" to a level I just find pretentious.
I'm pretty sure everyone piling on like it's the worst/best thing ever are just dejected people who succumbed to the hypetrain/hatetrain and will repeat the process on the next slightly challenging big budget game.
It's no masterpiece, it's no horrendous garbage, it's just blown out of proportion.
Just reminds me of the time everyone kept saying that Black Panther was the best movie ever and should win all the Oscars ever or hated it as "sjw-propaganda" when it wasn't even the most progressive movie to come out that year nor the best filmed.
@@teecee1827
1) I completely agree about your Black Panther example. In fact, that's pretty good example of an entry-level version of the tribalism The Last of Us Part 2 warns about. People pick sides and fight over things that need not be fought over.
2) By "more demanding" I simply mean that the experience is like 20 hours long. So, it's more demanding than a 2-hour feature.
3) I don't read the violence as self-indulgent. I believe the violence had to be depicted as realistically as possible to make sure the audience understands what's at stake. This is where Druckman and Gross believe tribalism takes us. You're free to disagree but I'd be careful not to write it off as merely "indulging". If we enjoy the killing in the game (I admit I do) it's an opportunity to reflect on our own potential for violence.
4) I don't think the message is only "humanity does bad things". That's clearly a part of it, but I think the message is closer to something like, "You and your "enemies" probably have a lot in common". But even that doesn't cover it.
I'm not insisting that people like the game at all. I'm just not impressed with the level of analysis.
TLOU1 was overtly simplistic. I think the game feels like a Pixar story retooled into something more “adult.” I think Joel’s grief arc isn’t that interesting or impressive and definitely ends tragically. He basically is using Ellie to relive his daughter. I personally think TLOU2 was actually pretty fucking cool. I don’t think the pregnancy angle for example were meant to be manipulative - and Adam kept beating the manipulation drum. Mel’s death was more intended to get to Ellie and Dina’s pregnancy was meant to make Ellie feel emotionally isolated during their trip in Seattle. When she kills Mel who is pregnant it helps tear into Ellie more who can identify her with Dina which has the cause and effect of her being careless enough to allow Abby to track her. It serves multiple functions and none of them made me feel like it was trying to have me go “oh no! Pregnancy. Wow they dead? That’s bad.” Almost every example of “manipulation” really is just meant to serve a more macro function which I think helps justify the inclusion and drive the characters down their arcs.
It was a big drag to have basically no contrasting viewpoint on it to debate the matter.
The first game is the perfect example of simplicity and its substance. The sequel is complexity over substance. Like Adam said, if you’re gonna do something risky, make sure it works. The game just isn’t satisfying narratively or character wise. The first game has characters that are loveable, a great score, great atmosphere, journey, perfect opening and a perfect ending, with great supporting characters along the way. The sequel is hollow, depressing, and frustratingly unsatisfying
Also Ralph makes a great point,with Joel missing, the heart is completely gone
I 100% disagree with Adam here. This game would absolutely not work if it wasn't a sequel to the first game
You should've got Amanda The Jedi on this; she finished the game on her Twitch
She was a great guest I'd like to see her return
She loved it! She recently uploaded a great review of it, would’ve loved to hear her counter their criticisms here
Her review is great I totally agreed with her points.
Abby doesn't kill dogs but she is in a war against the seraphites and the seraphites use horses. As Ellie you have to deal with dogs and as Abby you deal with horses, saying it's forced that Abby doesn't kill dogs because Ellie does kill them makes no sense at any level, how does it make the game worse? Ellie loved her horse Shimmer and the WLF fucking kills him with a mine while Abby loved her dog Alice and Ellie fucking stabs him to death.
I don’t agree with how Adam looks at death.
how come?
@@stinkfinga4918 // how is his sexuality relevant
2gay2lift
How do you?
1:40:02 Death Note is already an adaptation of the manga. The anime is a fantastic adaptation
I wouldn't call the last third "fantastic".
@@R0CKDRIG0 the ending will always be the worst part since Near's character is OP
TBH I think the ending of Death Note is the strongest part of the second season.
Near and Mello just aren't interesting to me, they feel like hollow and shitty substitutes.
The L/Light dynamic is so good that you can't just replace it. But seeing the absolute downfall of Light, post-L, is great. And as someone who is a bit of a nerd when it comes to japanese voice actors, my adoration for Miyano Mamoru (Light) just spiked after his performance in Death Note.
I assume he means film adaptation
Spartacus
Nah, it’s clear that Mellow and Near took down Light. Without Mellow, Near would have lost
I was screaming Mickey Rooney in Breakfast at Tiffany's for the first question.
Unanimously yes
one of my favourite lines in do the right thing has to be from after the celtics guy (john savage weirdly) fucks up buggin’s shoes, and buggin’s mad that he bought a brownstone on his side of the street. john savage is like “from what i understand its a free country, a man can live wherever he wants,” and buggin says “free country? man i should fuck you up for sayin that shit alone!”
The reason I was surprised that Joel died was because I thought it was such an obvious choice that naughty dog wouldn't think about pulling something so obvious.
Hey you guys should do a discussion on Michael Mann's movies, especially The Insider, since its one of his most underrated movies and some of the best acting by Al Pacino and Russell Crowe.
I think that a lot of people have a really hard time playing tlou2 because of their expectations. If you look at it on it's own, or from a less totally connected viewpoint, you get a LOT more out of it. For example, I only played the first game a month before the second came out, so I had a lot less connection to the characters and IP in general. Also, if you went into this game thinking they WEREN'T going to do some batshit crazy unexpected stuff, idk what to say, given the ending of the first game, I think people should've expected have some hard hitting emotional points and controversial stuff. Also, I beg of anyone who plays the game to deeply consider Abby's POV even if you're a massive fan of the first.
55:09 I can't believe Adum didn't mention Life is Strange 2
@@piratediscoking1392 Life is Dank 2: Bi Furry Boogaloo
I think the issue with LOU2 is that no one accomplishes anything aside from Abby killing Joel.
How can something be entertaining if you're told to like a character, but them and everyone around them screws up for stupid reasons and have nothing to show for it?
I think Neil Druckmann should have coddled the fan base with TLOU2 and shown everyone that Joel's and Ellie's existence within their world is special and infallible in every way, shape, and form.
I find that the longer I stare at the heads, the more they spin.
The thumbnail for this is great juxtaposition considering that people either love or hate TLOU2 and no one sits in the middle lol
Bruh i didnt even notice that lmaooo
1:33:58 - good to hear Alex do his signature nasally American accent on this podcast
You need to get the nostalgia critic as a guest
I'm just imagining what would happen if Doug saw Ralph's new video and the discussion that would spawn.
I don't think that will happen given the number of times they have criticised him and his work over the last two and a bit years. Also, he is a really shitty person.
Every time I watch Do the Right Thing I get Public Enemy's "fight the power" stuck in my head
sardonicast is the most disappointing thing ever since my
Grandson's daughter's Son
9th star wars episode
Son’s girlfriend’s E-Girls page.
Subscription to MauLer
Purchase of the 3rd Chvrches album
im still waiting for the kung fu panda episode... i know its coming i know Alex has a lot to talk about that movie... its time alex please the world needs this
The wimpy kid take is one of the best takes I've heard on the podcast.
The intro alone easily makes this one of Ralph's best episodes. I'll miss him on the pod. I always loved the more earnest discussions the most.
MY ITALIAN AMERICAN REPRESENTATION HAS BEEN STRIPPED AWAY 🤌🏼🤌🏼😢
It's not a ten out of ten but it's a stunning Joel in one
It’s really hard to peg down a score for this one
Wait was the controversy for Do the Right Thing with the actress? They brushed over that so quick and I don't know what they're referencing
I think the most annoying part of TLOU2 is that it REALLY thinks it's saying something special. As Adam said, the themes got in the way of a satisfying narrative, although the themes themselves: "Revenge bad & enemies human" are just THE most obvious, LEAST original sentiments, and there's nothing particularly interesting about their presentation. It simply doesn't feel worth all the heavy handed misery they try to put you through. TLOU1 had way more interesting ideas, insisted upon them far less and still managed to be so much more effective.
"Revenge bad & enemies human" I didn't see any of these as themes, at least not as simplistic as you make them sound. It's more of a commentary about the cycle of senseless violence in general, which in this world and the world of video games as a whole, a lot of people can definitely not even think about it as they play through. Like a lot of the time in video games you just kill shit and nothing comes back to bite you, you don't even think about it, there aren't any real consequences. Which is fine, it's a video game, but this game wanted to explore it in a different way using the narrative.
Which is why the theme works for me, but the execution not as much. But as a whole, the game is an 8.5/10 for me.
@@Crow-qm7zw that's reasonable, I think it's mostly the excecution/presentation but the story is also needlessly complicated and makes the main plot seem small and unimportant. That might have been the point but the whole game is sold on Ellie's revenge story so making that seem irrelevant to this bigger issue of walking dead factions the WLF and Seraphites was a huge wasted opportunity. It takes the personal feeling out of the game. Trying to bridge Ellie and Abby's stories would've been the best move because all Ellie is to Abby is a nuisance whereas Abby is the focal point of Ellie's story. If the whole city found out Ellie was immune and it became this manhunt for the immune girl, it would've upped the stakes and sense of urgency/intensity
@@Crow-qm7zw Right. It's just an eye for an eye leaving the whole world blind. Brilliant idea when first expressed by Ghandi, heavy-handed, obvious message that detracts from the overall game when expressed by Druckmann.
@@Gaberror404 revenge very bad
Jordan Newitt forgiveness heals, how trauma shapes everyone differently, perspective, empathy....
25th Hour is also another perfect film from Spike Lee. Seek it out if you haven’t seen it before.
Also Spike Lee is a genius and is continuously misunderstood. I think he doesn’t make bad movies, he simply makes misunderstood movies.
Even his Oldboy isn’t bad. It’s just much worse than the original.
Lee’s work means a lot to me. So I love most of his work. His Documentary work is essential. He’s one of the greatest filmmakers of all time.
I agree except for Oldboy, I don't even consider it a movie of his, it feels like a studio product for him to get his actual movies funded. But yeah, Spike Lee really be underrated.
He's one of the most essential American filmmakers. A true visionary.
I think you should just accept the fact that just because people don't like him, doesn't mean he's misunderstood. It just means that they have a different opinion than yours.
When the channel logo changes
“Movies should be experimental and challenge the audience’s perspective while games should be dumb fun with cliches stories and characters”. Sardonicast 2020.
I just responded to someone’s comment with this same thought, I fully believe there’s a phenomenon that happens when people play video games, they don’t approach storytelling in the same way they would for a TV show or movie or book, simply because it’s interactive. They can’t help but insert themselves and only want to see what they want to see.
@@uhuhuh1966 If this was a movie or a TV show I'm sure people would still hate it.
Smudge hard disagree, if it wasn’t interactive more people would be capable of viewing it objectively and successfully seeing what the story was doing. They wouldn’t have it in their minds that the creators were trying to “manipulate” them, because as it is now - when Ellie kills a dog we’re the ones pressing square, so when Abby pets that same dog, so many people think it’s the game trying to punish us for our actions when we didn’t have a choice. If it was a passive viewing experience on a TV show, more people would be able to see it for what it actually is: perspective. I never once felt guilty for killing the dog because I understood why Ellie did it in order to survive, just like I understood why Abby played with it because the WLF train them like guard dogs, just like I understood why Joel took Ellie dooming humanity because he loved her; that’s what perspective is. They’re not trying to make anyone feel bad or guilty, they’re just objectively showing us all of the facts so we can see the full picture for what it really is. Eliminating that ‘Us Vs Them’ mentality that our world currently lives in, where Democrats think all Republicans are evil monsters & vice versa. We’re all just flawed people that make mistakes.
When did they say this? Adam even says literally the opposite of this during the video.
I am joking, of course they didnt say that, I just fucking with them!!!
Game of Thrones is not a bad show just because Ned Stark dies. Last of Us 2 is not automatically bad because Joel dies. We don’t need basic ass Disney stories for every piece of media
The virgin Druckman vs. The CHAD Reggie.
We don't use the word 'fun' vs. If it's not fun, why bother.
> comparing Nintendo to Naughty Dog
uhhhh
You don't want narrative risks in a sequel? I don't think that argument makes sense. We usually complain about how sequels end up being pointless because they don't do anything new or interesting, instead favoring fan service and pandering to the first. I was glad to find TLOU Part 2 took big risks, but all the complaining about it makes me worried that we will get less creatively risky products in the future
Edit: this is in response to Adam's criticism that the narrative risks were inappropriate because the game was a sequel. It is not a claim that the risks taken were good or bad.
Complaining about what they did wrong isn’t bad and if they choose not to make creative risks in the future, that’s on them, not the people complaining. They can take risks, they just need to do it better. “Subverting expectations” and deliberately trying to piss off the fans and stir up controversy was evidently not the way to go.
Risks are good, demolishing the old story in place of a different one is just stupid
It's not that the ideas were new and original, it's that they were poorly executed
"Risky" doesn't mean "stupid"
Agreed. I rather get a bad but risky story than boring, by the number story. Not saying tlou2 is bad tho. Fortunately tlou2 sold really well and I hope less writers pander to the fans in the future
The "Love and Hate" thing is from Night of the Hunter. Amazing movie.
FUN FACT: Neil Druckmann's original outline for the first game was that Tess was going to track Joel across the country and torture him and kill him to get her revenge, but it was dropped because the other writer deemed it too unrealistic for the setting.
I see people keep bringing this up but they always leave out that he said it was unrealistic for her to track them down just because Joel screwed her out of a deal. I think that context helps when comparing the original draft of 1 and the story for Part 2.
Couldn’t agree more with what was said about The Last of Us 2.
Was a couple points I disagreed with, but overall it’s like they read my mind.
Doesn't that mean you can agree more