Naughty Dog's decision to kill off both Ellie and Abby and then have you play as the Nostalgia Critic for the last 1/3 of the game was really strange, and I'm not sure how I feel about it.
I’ve been honestly anticipating your guy’s discussion on this game because I knew I would finally get an actual logical review & understandable opinions. Just honestly thanks for just giving a honest take while considering both sides to each subject. & of course for actually finishing the game to give an actual genuine review.
Completely agree! Been trying to engage with some people who I don't share an opinion with to have a discussion and it's ends with me being accused of being paid by Sony 😅
If it helps, I didn't look at the leaks at all whatsoever and I still had the same reaction as you guys. I liked Abby, Dina, Jesse, Ellie, Joel, etc, but I really didn't like the execution. It's one of those situations where I see what they were going for, but I kinda feel like the just farted and shitted and peeded.
I love that last scene with Joel. When he says he'd do it all over again, to me it actually changes his entire motivation. When Joel took Ellie from the hospital, he did it out of selfishness. He did it because he couldn't stand to lose her. He knew she would be willing to die for a cure and he didn't care. When he lies to her about it for two years he was still trying to avoid paying the cost of that decision. The cost he was trying to avoid wasn't being beaten to death by a golf club, it was losing Ellies love. In the end, the lies hurt Ellie as much as what he did. Her happiest memories of him are now tainted by it. When he says at the end that he'd do it all over again, he has experienced the personal cost about for two years and is willing to accept it. By saying he would save her even if it cost his most precious thing (his relationship with her) it makes what he did, whether right or wrong, a selfless act rather than a selfish one. By being honest he gives her the choice of what to do about it and she realises she can love him without condoning what he did.
Hey you! This is phenomenal. I intially misread the ending of the game and when I discussed it with my friends who both disliked the game, while it liked it for the most part. I said I thought by Joel stating ‘he would do it all over again’ it meant he wouldn’t take the same course of action, as I was arguing in favour of the game redeeming Joel morally, as this could be seen in him helping Abby, and being more affable etc. But they argued that his death was senseless as he was never redeemed and his relationship with Ellie was never truly restored, making it just depressing. They showed me the scene again, and I was wrong. But this reading validated my argument again that despite his actions disenfranchising and ruining the lives of Abby etc, the game still recontextualises Joel as a less egoistic individual making Ellie’s forgiveness of him just
@@lustrazor44 I'm not sure what you mean as the only choice I mention is here is her choice of whether to forgive him or not. Are you talking about originally, where neither Joel nor the Fireflies gave her a choice about whether to sacrifice herself or not?
It seems a bit unfair to be mad at Joel for seemingly taking away Ellie's choice with the potential cure when that's exactly what the Fireflies were doing.
@@grrrr255 She only says that after the fact though. Joel would have had no idea that she was willing to die for a chance at the cure, and the Fireflies didn't wait for her to wake up after nearly drowning to ask her.
mroczny olek13 Shouldn’t a traumatized 14 year old make a decision like that after being given even just a few days to think about it? Neil Druckmann might say a vaccine would have resulted from a Ellie’s death but in-universe there’s at least one note saying other immune people died in failed attempts. Plus I find it hard to believe that there aren’t more immune people in other parts of the world and the characters simply don’t know cause they’re stuck in the U.S. plus how the hell are they going to manufacture and distribute a vaccine on a wide scale when society is non-existent for most people and the Fireflies are on their last legs? Even by Part 2 when they’re regrouping they only have 200 people.
i feel like i'm the only person on planet earth that didn't see any leaks at all, i knew the game was coming out, i didn't know when and when it dropped, i played it and completed it and i didn't even know it got review bombed or leaked. i think my youtube recommended must be broken
that's weird, I watched a few playthroughs after completing the game and also while I was playing throught the game and now my youtube reccomendations are a mess, "Neil cuckman, she-hulk, SJWs, Soy Backer..." are all words that I've seen so much times now that I could die.
The ending of the game really got me, when Tommy Wiseau appeared and proclaimed "if a lot of people love each other the world will be a better place to live " and Ellie and Abby laugh and they play some Golf with Joel, powerful stuff.
Stop regurgitating what everyone has been saying about that tweet. Jason Schreier is being absolutely asinine in believing that the TLOU2 is being directly compared to Schindler's in terms of plot, even Cory Barlog said as much
and the other day, some simp journo from gamespot was trashing angry joe and calling him a sexist just because he hated the story and gave the game a 6/10
Got to that point in 10 hours and it still felt waaaay too late. Should’ve been switching between characters throughout with the Joel flashbacks happening first.
@@MetaMetro3 it would've spoiled the "shock" moment of joels death but i think it also would've been better if it BUILT UP to abby killing joel instead of what they did
I understand, I think it’s the more interesting choice to develop Abby afterward. I don’t know if you’ve seen the film funny games, but the thesis statement by Haneke the director, is to goad the audience almost. It’s a home invasion film, where the killers are aware it’s a movie, the point is to show the audience that the violence on screen does have consequences, despite how we act as though it’s just spectacle, the violence is literally funded by us. The game goads you into hating Abby, then attempts to contextualise her under a new light for the audience. Which I like more. But. Last of us is a mainstream commodity, Druckmann is not Haneke, you can only be so subversive when you’re making a £50 game for a massive audience. And while I like the decision they went with, the back lash is obvious
What they were going for was putting the player into Ellie's shoes first, solely, so that way we can empathise with her cause, but then it does a bait-and-switch by forcing us to play as Abby so that way we understand her story. We don't have to agree, just understand. If it was told chronologically, then we would feel more connection to Abby but it would make our connection to Ellie's want for revenge lessened. It's a double edged sword either way, but I think they way they chose to present it was a bit more interesting yet clunky.
@@ilikerice5208 It's also simply that much harder to pull off, and the fact they tried to do so with such meandering pandering (namely the dogs) just makes the intention obvious. I would argue that this idea works better for an episodic series than a video game. It sacrificed too much to put in those ideas you find "interesting," and story falters for it
BirdsElopeWithTheSun and it is well-written for the most part. it does its job, but how well it does its job varies from person to person. there's a ton of controversy simply because it took risks, and with risks, controversy is inevitable. Metal Gear Solid 2 is a great example. in fact, history is pretty much repeating itself
Haven't watched the whole thing yet but I got to the bit where they mention how the marketing misleads you in to thinking Joel is more present in the story than he actually is and it reminded me of how Metal Gear Solid 2 hid Raiden in all of the trailers. Surprised Jim didn't mention it since he's a metal gear fan. On that point, I think misleading your audience in the marketing can be effective but it's also kind of a cheap shock move. Really depends how it's handled I suppose.
Marvel Spiderman gameplay trailer was also misleading. In the trailer spiderman fights Mr. Negative on the helicopter while in the final product you actually fight his goons on the helicopter. Misleading trailer is simply nothing more than a sin in the industry rather than a illegal advertising
Also, about Tommy. I would also be pissed if I was being guilt tripped by Ellie (also Joel earlier), laying everything on the line, and then Ellie pulling out. Also he got crippled duren the whole ordeal. Him guilt tripping Ellie in the end made sense and worked for me.
As someone who didn't see the leaks I can safely say I was on the edge of my seat through the entire game, Probably a weak ending sure, but it didn't take away from the core experience for me.
Ashken_Dagbul_2008 Agreed. I also think if she would’ve killed abby it would’ve ruined the forgiveness theme that is going on with Joel throughout the games flashbacks.
@Ashken_Dagbul_2008 yes 100% by the end of the game the 'square button' ending qte made so much impact that i hesitated to push the button because I don't want Ellie to kill her. That is the first time I felt so uncertain to push a button.
@Ashken_Dagbul_2008 considering Abby got her revenge and ellie went hundreds of miles after she decided to stop chasing Abby only to then decided again she wanted to go back to chase Abby going forward to the pointless at the end I really don't see how it's perfect.
Mr Saturday Abby got her revenge on Joel but she didn't get revenge for her friends. If she'd killed Ellie and Dina in the Theatre, she'd still have been the same person who killed Joel but the fact she didn't shows she had changed. That's when she ended the cycle for herself. Ellie is left in the position Abby was after her dads death. Suffering flashbacks and unable to get peace and makes the same decision Abby did. I can only get peace by taking revenge. Ellie never got a real choice to give up on revenge until she was at the point of actually taking it by killing Abby. Unlike Abby though Ellie hasn't been obsessing over it for as long. Just like Lev stopped Abby, her final memory of Joel on the porch stopped her. The question is why did it stop her. I certainly can think of several reasons.
@@dogsoldier123 Ellie technically did more damage than Abby when it comes to them hunting each other. Ellie killed way more people that were friends with Abby than Abby did with people Ellie was close with. If you want to get into the technicalities, Abby lost more than Ellie did. She lost her father, Owen, Mel, and multiple other friends within WLF including some of their dog companions. Ellie killing Abby wouldn't have put them on some even middle ground. Joel technically started it and Abby just responded with an eye for an eye. Abby lost her father as a teenager. Ellie killing Abby would've been pointless. The whole reason Ellie went on the hunt to begin with is because she felt guilty for not publicly telling Joel she forgives him. Joel dies thinking she hated him and she hated herself for it. So she went after Abby as a means to prove her forgiveness. We seen Ellie go through a post traumatic episode at the farm. Killing Abby wouldn't have fixed a damn thing. She was already broken by the violence she was seeing and bought through. More if it wouldn't have meant anything.
I do kind of wish that they had more investment in Jesse as they did with Owen, but to be fair, Owen did have a steeper hill to climb to gain a level of sympathy whereas Jesse already was a likeable character to begin with. Needless to say, I’m just nitpicking but this is a great discussion. 👍🏾
I don’t think Abby regrets killing Joel, and maybe that’s another reason people don’t like her. Her arc is really about her finally getting what she wanted and realizing it as all for nothing. Even though she got her revenge she still had night terrors about her dad, she still was distant with her loved ones. She ends up losing everything and even her own idea of justice couldn’t help her. Ellie and Abby are on the same journey but at different points, at the end of game Ellie is where Abby was at the start.
But Abby did realize killing Joel did nothing for her. The look on her face after she killed him was the look of not being satisfied. If you watched that scene again and focus on her looks, you'll see how she doesn't feel relief after she killed him while hearing Ellie's screams. Right there in that moment, she realized that killing Joel did nothing for her, and she didn't get her Father back. Just like those nightmares she kept having, until she saw her Dad smiling in a dream, which was less of a reminder of both her insanity and fears.
I personally think the main problem is that these fucking characters just never talk it out, at the theater after a fight scene would have been a great time for either of them to say ANYTHING, well, okay, emotions were high and Abby was pissed, fine. But what about the end, they're all buddy buddy for the few minutes and neither of them says a word? Or how about after the fight when Ellie is crying, does Abby apologize, thank her for letting her live or for saving her life? No? She just walks off the screen and fucks off the story? Nice, good characters, I can totally believe that they would have enough sympathy for each other to not kill the other after what each of them did
Did you forget the part where Abby accepts her fate and punishment and the only reason she didn’t let ellie kill her was because she threatened to murder lev?
Louie209 yeah I tried to mention that I do think Abby is torn up because killing Joel didn’t make her feel better, not necessarily that she feels bad for Joel, maybe I’m just too cynical but at the end of the day Joel still killed her dad. I think Abby regrets not getting any satisfaction out of killing Joel, if that’s makes sense? Like besides her look after killing Joel she doesn’t do anything to express regret, if she really felt bad for what she did she should have tried expressing it more to Ellie.
Stev Sux It’s hard to say but I think it’s because there is some resentment still there. Just because they were able to overcome their differences doesn’t necessarily mean they’re best friends. Like they still did some fucked up things to each other, but I think the point is that they realize they have better things to worry about, that holding onto a grudge will only cause more hate and violence. I think they showed this pretty well with Dina and Lev but they showed instead of out right told us.
My only real problem with the game is the nonlinear story. The constant use of flashbacks forces the pacing to grind to a halt, and it really cripples the replay value.
@Rohan Bais I don't mind that it's different. And like the JAR guys said, it was is the only way that this story could be effectively told. I just don't wanna play the game multiple times because the gameplay of the flashbacks is so slow. It helps tell the story, but it makes NG+ runs tedious.
I understand the message behind the ending, but because I inherently love Joel more than I like Abby, it genuinely just feels emotionally unsatisfying; for me, there's no real catharsis for me... I get it, but I kinda hate that's the fate Ellie had to have in the end..
I think the thing about TLOF2 that annoys me the most, is that there were powerful story moments for me. I was invested in Ellie forgiving Joel, Forgiving Abby, and Forgiving herself for how she treated Joel after she found out what he'd done. It was very moving for me, when she lost those fingers, and realized what she was doing. The problem with this game, as a sequel to the first, is that you're already at an extremely developed, invested point in Ellie and Joel's characters at the beginning of the game, and that's not really explored again until the end. I don't think it's unreasonable for the fan, at that point, to assume the writers have dropped the ball after 7 years. I like a lot of reviews reflect this impatience and lack of confidence. Once I hit the end, and realize what kind of story I'd been told, I thought it was really well done. I like that it didn't hold my hand and tell me how to feel. There were long stretches during Ellie's campaign where I was totally lost on how I should feel, and if you think about it, that's how Ellie felt. Man that sounds lame. I've get the sense from most Ellie's campaign, that you're not supposed to be able to read the 'mood' correctly, because Ellie can't herself. I always looked at Diana as a 'mood killer' in the beginning, and wished Ellie was doing shit alone. But when she did, she did terrible things, so I wasn't sure that was good either. Then when I played as Abby, I paused for a bit and thought, Abby is way more straight forward. I knew how to feel, when I wasn't hating her for killing Joel. I got into the idea that I was being mislead intentionally. And once the game was over, and Ellie finally gets some clarity on why she was so tortured, I felt that hit home so strongly. I wish the game had more moments like this. And the funny thing is, most of the 'feels good to know this character' moments happen in Abby's segment. Ellie's parts feel almost devoid of feels comparatively.
I think that's fair. I think one of the things that I love, but also frustrates me, about this game is that as soon as you can sense a moment in which you as a player will get something that you deem to be satisfactory, it gets taken away from you. It's a VERY risky move that not a lot of developers can get away with, but this one works for some bizarre reason. In addition, the colors in Abby's story are a lot more vibrant and colorful, they're full of life and brightness, whereas Ellie's is very dark and bleak; I think that's the intention of the creators to paint this narrative story into two different pools of emotion--Ellie's representation of rage throughout the first 3 days, and Abby's stage of redemption through those 3 days. Quite fascinating.
I feel differently. I've never really felt much of anything in a videogame story. I've been touched by plenty of media in other categories. For some reason Abbys reaction to Mels comments in the Aquarium struck a chord with me.
I totally agree. The story is really good on paper and when you lay it all out, but the telling of this great story (and some pacing) faulters. They do not make certain motivations that are crucial for the story to work clear enough. I still really love the game, and if everyone else was loving it too, I would give it a 10 personally. But because of how divisive it has been I just cant give it the "perfect" 10 because it feels misleading. I just wish the game was better told so that all players got all of the story they wanted to tell. Not calling anyone stupid for "not getting it" either because it most definetly is the storytellings fault for not making things clear.
@@erundorgames8941 Am I saying it always is the storytellings fault? No. I truly believe that THIS story has faults in telling and pacing from all of the videos I have watched where the opinion about the game differs from mine (and of course my own opinions). Is it not the storys fault for not making that many players care about it in the "intended" way? That is my main critisism. I truly believe it is a great story that is not told as well as it could have been. That is why I give it a 9 (or not a "perfect" 10) as well, because of that fault that is pretty important and has impacted the enjoyment of both me and other players. Because if everyone enjoyed it, the storytelling and pacing issues would not have existed to that extent. Maybe I did not make this point clear enough in my first comment. Is that fault on the writer or reader tho ;)
I didn't even know the TLOU2 got leaked until the game was officially released. That being said, I have a love for the game I can't really describe honesty. I'd say it's more of an appreciation, but there is still love there. Probably because I feel like the story is real. And the story isn't perfect, but I feel like it's good. Basically like life, it's not perfect, but it can be good. I feel like It's not necessarily the sequel anyone wanted, but I feel like it was needed. I had my doubts throughout the game, but after sitting on the whole story, sleeping on it, and really thinking about the characters, empathizing with them, and the parallels, I feel like Naughty Dog did a good job with what they were to portray. I honestly couldn't see it going any other way. I understand the critiques and why people even hate it, but I'm glad Naughty Dog took a risk tbh. The game left me feeling somber/sad, especially in the ending but I think in the midst of it all (some people/me) we're able to gain some closure with what they've given us so far. I'd give it, an 8/10. Not only do I have an appreciation for the story, but the gameplay and the graphics are top-notch too!
Let me just refute why an open world game wouldn’t work for the terrible pacing of this game. In an open world, you have to have side quests otherwise it ends up like Mafia ll. Beautiful world, but nothing to do in it other than travel long distances to each objective. With last of us 2, the revenge angle is so insular and Ellie is so determined on that one path... that having side quests or a huge open world just wouldn’t work for the story they wanted to tell. Now don’t get me wrong having a story like this last 25 hours also didn’t work at all... however If the story was 15 hours long... with linear gameplay without so much meandering repetitive moments I think this game could’ve been a masterpiece. Nevermind, jarlings.
It does feel a bit long, but listening to Troy Baker and Neil Druckmann talk about the pacing, they mention that we're meant to feel like it's going on too long. We're meant to think "how is this still going?" because that's how the characters feel. I still think it should've been cut down a bit, but so much feels intentional when analysed that I'd be hard pressed to think of stuff to remove, at least in terms of story moments. Some gameplay moments are way too long, especially the really open Seattle bit, that drags bad.
Emery Memery The issue is on how they refer to this game at all. They talk about it like a movie, and while games certainly can reach those narrative standards, it still has to be a fun game before anything else. And making the player go long distances over and over and killing the already poor pacing is just a bad decision. If people criticized Death Stranding for doing the same thing, it seems a little weird that TLoU2 has gotten away with it
@@emerymemery3653 With that being the case, you should expect people to not like the pacing. Just because it means to do something, doesn't mean it does it correctly: ie Alex being more frustrated at the set up to Joel's death than the event itself or having to slog through to the climax again after the story already amped you up for it. The latter is fine in other formats, especially an episodic series (for a movie Abby's section would still need a bit of pacing reworking), but in the game where you actively participate, that's going to felt in a different, likely more negative way
@@emerymemery3653 I'm sorry but Druckman and Baker are dumbasses then. They are justifying making a shitty decision by implying it was intentional. I can "accidentally" file the wrong tax expenses someone did and when I am caught I will just say "it was intentional ya see. Now your mind is open to the fact I'm a piece of shit." Furthermore, Druckman puts too much of himself in the game and is terrible at writing 18 year olds.
X.A.N.A It only gets a pass because of the fanboys. The fanboys for this game are pathetic and will defend it at any cost. I personally know a diehard fanboy and me and our friend make fun of him all the time.
I mean, I'd say the biggest leak in Video Game history is still Half Life 2, like the whole game got leaked that time, sure the levels were still pretty unfinished and some were the Beta versions, but damn that one was a hard one
@@frogglen6350 He wasn't arguing quality though. Just how big the leak was. And, they were just throwing in their two cents. Whether or not anyone cares is up to the reader themselves.
Start the game with the Abby and Jerry zoo scene, perfectly leads into the Joel and Tommy scene, cut the Ferris wheel and Christmas flashback (and the Owen relationship, he does nothing but hinder Abby's story. He's such a doorknob). Jesse should've been with Joel and Tommy, taking Tommy's place with the guilt as Tommy is forced to stay home from injuries, cut the guitar strings flashback with Joel and Ellie, have the climax of Ellie and Abby happen at the Seraphites island rather than Santa Barbara (or if you're gonna have it in Santa Barbara, make it vengeful WLF's not some random new group)
But that's such an unoriginal story if we know why Abby killed Joel. Ellie doesn't know why when it happens and neither should we. It is far more challenging for the players to get to know Abby after.
My changes would be eerily similar to yours and I've thought about them for a while, except I wouldn't have you play as Abby again after the prologue and I like the Owen relationship and would keep it(nix Mel and Rev though). I liked having Owen as Abby's moral conscious. Then when he dies she just completely loses it. And Ellie actually killing her in the end losing everything in the process would have been a haunting ending that's true to the first. Still a solid game.
I enjoyed it a lot. although it was too long. they should have ended it before the rushed ending. at the farm. and perhaps taken their time to make a dlc instead.
Nah, I'd give this game a solid 8.5/10. Honestly, if I knew more about storytelling, and what they did specifically too skirt norms, I'd probably give it an 11/10. I'm too ignorant though :(
I'm so glad James mentioned the notes! I loved the notes in this game. Every time I saw one I wasn't like "fuck, that's not a the whole piece of cloth I thought it was" like I did in the first. Lots of really interesting characters and stories to read there.
So the problem with changing the focus from ellie to abby is that it is interrupting the urgency of the plot and telling practically a filler sidequest. Doesn't help that the gameplay without that plot urgency is not that great either
The first killer for this game for me was the 10/10 reviews across the board from game critics calling it a masterpiece. It’s by no means a 4/10 but not is it a 10/10/10/10/10.
It was very shitty how this game got leaked and ruined for the majority of people looking forward to the game, I don’t care if you think the game is good or not, it sucks to have something you are looking forward to ruined like this.
They should have had Joel die later in the game after youd already been playing as Abby for a while. Make you really relate and like this new character and then cause a lot confliction by having her, the person you were just playing, kill off the main character
I don't think that could have worked. The game has pacing issues already and Joel's death was the inciting incident. Pushing it further back means that we have to wait that much longer for the story got started.
I agree with what you say but at the same time I feel like making us care about Abby after killing Joel is a way to test or bias with this characters, because both Abby and Ellie have very similar situations and motivations that If you think that one of them is an evil person, why dont you think the other one is when both do almost exactly the same?
@@howiehiew ya if u try to fit it in one game, u just cant fix the pacing issue. I think wat could have helped was if part 2 focused mainly on Abby story and part 3 used the story from this game that way u dont get alot of flashbacks and back and forth
@@howiehiew you're right, Joel is the pushing point for the story to get rolling, which is why it's baffling that the whole point of the story gets dropped for side stories so often, which is why it should have gotten pushed further into the game and had the filler garbage removed
I would say that, while the story on the surface is about Ellie forgiving Joel, really the story is about Ellie forgiving herself for treating Joel the way she did. That's what the ending brings out for me, and how I think the flashbacks are supposed to be interpreted. It's not clear before the ending though, and I think that's intentional as a kind of internal plot.
I'm only 18 minutes in so I'm sorry if this does get addressed but one common misconception i have seen about this game is that it forces you to try and forgive abby. Imo it's not about forgiving but understanding. The game requires the player to understand that even if we love Joel, he has still done horrible things and isn't our knight in shining armor. It requires us to also understand that Abby isn't some 2-dimensional villain we first thought she was and that she is equally as bad as characters we love like Joel or Ellie. I never forgave Abby, i wanted her dead throughout the entire game, however, i wasn't unhappy with the ending, i actually really like what they did with the ending, and feel Ellie sparing Abby was the right decision. That's just my interpretation anyway, i just feel its worth considering for anyone that thinks you are forced to sympathize with or forgive abby.
I liked it. Really tests your empathy. On the other hand, it’s not the sequel anyone was wanting or expecting. I can perfectly see why people would love or hate it. A lot of folks are making Last Jedi comparisons but I see it more as this gen’s Metal Gear Solid 2. There’s more emphasis on metanarrative, themes and a bait and switch protagonist than the first game.
And to add to that comparison. Everyone hated MGS2 at launch and it took a few years for people go back and try to understand what was actually being said in it.
The problem with your and Garth's comparisons is that Raiden doesn't actively do anything to Snake. If anything, part of the reason this all works in MGS2 is because Snake takes up the role of the guiding hand and helps Raiden get to a point where he is free to make his own choices. Abby is just another person living a scummy life in the apocalypse who brutally tortures a pre-established character to death and ultimately is only that to Ellie. Also MGS2 isn't a constant fucking downer, like any MGS games there times of levity and plain old fun set pieces
@@relic5752 the fact you don't find the set pieces given in the game fun are a personal preference (I found them all much more fun to play through than the first game)and over analyzing our commentson the character flip is kinda funny as the point being made is on the forced perspective shift, not how it plays out in the story. The only valid point is that it's a downer story through I find that to be a poor excuse to call this a terrible game when forcing humor or more light hearted points would have made it feel much more forced than the shallow new side characters.
The game got review bombed 2 hours after release so I'm confident in saying most negative reviews are from people who haven't even played the game. The game most definitely has problems however those aren't the problems gamers care about. Just go to the last of us 2 sub reddit they fucking despise the character abby from way before the game leaked, calling her trans because of how masculine she is and discussing how they want to torture her. There's even a fan comic about it. It's actually super fucked up. I saw a few comments on one the videos showing joels death scene with people talking about how they want to kill the developers. Laura bailey is getting harassed and sent threats over things her character did. It's pathetic and uncalled for just look at this shit twitter.com/LauraBaileyVO/status/1279173199918292992?s=20
I dont think Ive seen a discussion/review that resonated with how I felt so much. Its not perfect, but its far FAR better than what people made it out to be, and theres a strong chance that if the leak never happened that it wouldnt be as polarized (mainly by people who got caught in the circlejerk without even fucking TOUCHING the game)
I think you need to give the game, especially its narrative a second thought before making that assessment. You seem to be missing what people criticized it for.
@@JukaDominator Many of the criticisms I agree with, but it by no means it deserved to be review bombed or given anything below a 5-6. My point is that Im talking about people who have literally never touched the game and just saw the leaks, and gave it shitty reviews the moment it came out. Im willing to accept a 6/10 for this game given the issues and how unconventional it was I believe its trying something different, which fell flat on its face for some people. However, personally I gave it an 8/10 just for having the balls to do it, and among other things that I felt were executed pretty well, such as the combat, design and art direction, and just the overall feeling of a journey I felt I had throughout the game. I agree with the majority of the criticism, but my point is that the hate was FAR overblown. I believe people could have been mildly disappointed in some story elements, but not like what we had when it launched (and even before them). A lot of the hate for this game came from audiences from "ReDpilEd" RUclipsrs, and then it became just a new fashion to hate on it without even seeing the execution of the game itself. People were prepared to destroy this game because the experience was already spoiled for them, and everyone was treated like an idiot for buying and playing the game and liking it for what it was. Alex questions SEVERAL times throughout this review that if this game was never spoiled and people just played it without knowing anything, that things maybe have turned out differently. Thats what I was agreeing with.
completely agree with the guy who said this game is Ellie's story ( i don't know their names). Despite being a large focus, imo abby is still just a component of ellie's overall story in the game.
I don't think they're trying to make you "empathise" with the grunts you're killing so much as they are trying to make you feel a little less comfortable about killing people without provocation generally. It's an impossible ludonarrative problem to solve completely, as the player has far less at stake than Ellie as a character in the world. In saying that, it is possible to play through the game without killing anyone in encounter sections. It's hard, but progress is not gated. So kudos to ND for at least creating a world where you can play it according to Ellie's character. Thirdly - grunts will absolutely kill Ellie onsite. If Owen or Mel was a character who you didn't know just on patrol in one of your encounters, absolutely Ellie might take em out in context within that beat of the story. She quite clearly did that with Vita girl. Also, when Abby says "you killed my friends" , who's suggesting she's not also referring to a bunch of generic patrolling wolves Ellie killed as well as named characters like Owen and Mel.
But Abby would have probably killed Wolves to get off of Scar Island at that point in time. I don’t think generic NPC’s count as “friends” in that regard.
@@Nassit-Gnuoy she did kill wolves. So no, those wolves were likely not the ones I'm referring to. I'm talking about the hundreds of other wolves Ellie potentially killed who were just on the beat in their respective outposts. Any one of them could've been chummy with Abby back at home base.
@@MarkArnoldMusic Ellie doesn't kill wolves, she kills domestic guard dogs with names and owners who cry when you kill them, but when you play as Abby you only kill wild animals because the devs are begging for you not to think of abby being bad or worse than ellie even if they have to manipulate you emotionally
I have a feeling TLoU2 is going to follow the same path as Bioshock Infinite where all the people rabidly defending it right now will admit to how shitty it was in a few years and pretend they always felt that way.
People who think this game's writing and plot is the worst ever made haven't played Ride to Hell: Retribution (or, to compare to other AAA zombie games, Resident Evil 5 and 6) People who think this game's writing and plot is the best ever made haven't played Undertale and Stanley Parable. It's pretty good. A little more than above average; and everyone is overreacting.
As someone who played both for the first time back to back, I can confidently say the second is better in almost every single way. Better level design, sound design, animation (holy hell that animation), lighting, gameplay, set pieces - the only thing I would say is up for debate is the story. And while I enjoy the second one more, I think both games elevate each other’s story. That’s why the second is called Part II.
40:28 in this scene yeah I felt like it was a bit cheesy but then when she left them alone I thought about Ellie and how she lost the closest relationship she’s ever had and now feels like an outsider in the only important relationship she’s got left and that’s lonesome af
The whole thing about Abby's dad I felt could have been handled better. Why would he just decide to kill a child without even asking her first? If he had woken Ellie up and told her that making a vaccine would kill her I'd give more of a shit about Joel killing him. What kind of person would do that, even for the greater good? Abby comforts him and tells him that if she was immune she'd want him to do the surgery on her. That's great and all, but you never asked. I'm confident Ellie would have done it and Joel wouldn't have killed them, but this being TLoU I could definitely see the vaccine not working and her death being for nothing.
To answer each question/comment: "Why would he just decide to kill a child without even asking her first?" - Because of how he would feel when hearing someone who is immune has a cure after 20 some years of an outbreak. In the first game this is touched upon by Tommy when he questions Joel on why Ellie is with him. He finds it impossible that a cure can be found at this point and just thinks its bs but when he personally accompanies Joels to find her and fights off the bandits dealing with Tommy's town, it makes him believe him and is willing to do the job since its what the Fireflies wanted and he was one that felt could be his duty to do when he was one. That same idea is here but from the perspective of a doctor who is desperate for a cure and yet still finds it hard to believe anyone is coming when the events of the first game happened over a year and anything could happen along the way at any moment. It's a matter of really understanding the larger world of the Last of Us and applying the time passage as a means of believing for yourself what could be assumed. The fireflies were shown throughout the whole game to be losing and struggling so seeing a cure wind up at their feet just means they will act on it asap even if its a matter of her life. It doesnt mean they are right or wrong for doing it because everyone in that world has done morally questionable things to stay alive. "What kind of person would do that, even for the greater good?" - Obviously someone who is desperate to change the world even if it meant sacrificing a single individual. It's a very classic moral dilemma case that people to this day debate still: sacrifice one of your own for a bunch of strangers' own lives, with their own children to consider, or not. People will not easily deduce who is right or wrong here for the last part of the first game because its stooped in multiple factors that the second intentionally takes and makes as the main point of the whole narrative. People are complicated and it's why many who condemn Part 2's plot are being too harsh or blind to the way Naughty Dog have show its world for all these years. "I'm confident Ellie would have done it and Joel wouldn't have killed them"- yet you truly don't know if it would have happened that way because you obviously have never been a parent and Joel seeing Ellie as his daughter would make him save her no matter her decision. The idea 1 and part 2 make is Joel, despite being under the trauma of losing Sarah, couple with his ways of surviving and his journey with Ellie ultimately makes him a monster that wants redemption even if he knows the consequences of what could happen. And many would be confident in that not happening which is EXACTLY why many hated his death because they BELIEVED it would be better. It's a case of Children of Men transferring to Game of Thrones.
From hearing a lot of the leaks, I never thought I would dislike Ellie so much and ending up loving all the time spent as Abby. I hated having to go back to Ellie, especially at the end, I really didn't want to hurt Abby. The flashbacks felt great to me and kept me curious to play more. I felt nothing when Abby killed Dina's babydaddy (don't even remember his name) but felt so sad when I had to kill Abby's friend Owen, Mel, hunting down Nora was rough, and Manny's death shocked me so much I'm glad there was a mini cut scene right after for me to breath. I really wanted to help Yara and Lev too, a lot of emotional ups and downs with that stuff. I want Last of Us 2 (not part 2) to be just Abby and Lev.
congrats. you have shit taste and let ND manipulate you exactly how they wanted. abby is a horrible, hateful character who had an easy path to her dad's killer who she then tortured RIGHT IN FRONT ELLIE and never once regrets anything she does. ellie meanwhile is forced to keep killing to get closer to abby. she's forced to kill the dogs abby got to play with. she throws up when she learns the girl she killed was pregnant. ellie never gets her revenge and winds up broken and alone. abby got her revenge, never was punished, and gets to be happy and find the fireflies.
@@MrHandss maybe I got manipulate into having a positive experience, doesnt sound like a bad thing tho. Im just happy I got a lot of enjoyment for the money I spent. Better than being part of the screaming voices getting upset about a VIDEO GAME. XD
@@MrHandss Abbys revenge was going after Joel. Ellies revenge is killing everyone she sees. Tell me again who the horrible character is? Abbys dad could have saved a lot of people, Joel just kills him cause he's selfish.
I'm really surprised that more people aren't comparing TLOU2 to the original launch of Metal Gear Solid 2 which did a very similar thing (imagine the twist of TLOU2 except instead of being half of the game it's 90% of the game with a character who is strategically designed to be the exact opposite of the original protagonist everyone loved). The thing is though, while people hated, and I mean HATED Raiden and MGS2 for a loooong time, as the controversy has settled and the series has moved past it, many people, including myself, have gone back to re-evaluate MGS2 as text from a less biased/emotional context and have come to consider it the strongest Metal Gear game both in game design but also in quality of writing and direction. I genuinely wonder if the same will happen with this game. Any time a developer pulls something like this, the immediate reaction is going to be distaste and anger. People don't like being duped especially when they're this emotionally invested in the series and when they're paying $60 for a product they aren't even going to get really. After time progresses and the controversy settles though, I wonder if some people are going to appreciate the subversion or if its going to go down in history as one of the biggest "what the fuck" moments in gaming culture. It's really strange to see this happening again when its almost identical to what we saw back in 2001. It's like total deja vu....
I loved the first game and made a point of avoiding every single trailer and spoiler for part 2. I thought part 2 was amazing and I enjoyed all of it. The only thing I wished is that there was another horde (as is mentioned in the notes you find) in the final part. I love foreign cinema though, and this game had a very independent/foreign cinema feel to it. Excellent views though and it was refreshing to hear a sensible conversation about the game.
You mean with the rattlers? Yeah, adding more moments of Ellie's focus slowly shifting to saving the civilians who were imprisoned and/or enslaved would add more to her redemption (like that of Abby when she helped Yara and Lev), and add more sense to her decision to spare Abby.
@@Ori_Kohav Yeah, with the Rattlers. It felt like the game was preparing me for it to happen. It would have been a good way to bookend the story with a horde at the start and a horde at the end. And yeah, it would have helped Ellie's redemption too :)
In regards to Joel's death and the "tone not feeling right." I believe that was intentional, Joel was always going to go out in a random coincidental event. It was never going to be this elaborate planned out heroes death. He'd die on a patrol clearing infected, get caught in the elements, or stumble upon one of the many people who could potentially wanted revenge on him. We were meant to not only feel Ellie's rage, but her confusion, her frustration at this moment. Too soon. Rushed. Why now? How could he let this happen? This scene is more complex than just her rage, it's all her regrets forced to the surface at once. She's almost frustrated with HIM that he could allow himself to let this happen. "GET UP JOEL!" Obviously blooded and beaten and incapable of saving them, she STILL even in the state hes in asks for him to get up and save himself, and her again.
i think the issue people have more is that it goes against his character to be so trusting in the first place, joel in the entirety of tlou1 was way more cautious, he would not give his full name to randos much less visit them unarmed
Thats the whole thing, the Joel of TLOU1 isnt the Joel of this game. Just curious did you play the game? A lot of the notes and early scenes point towards him softening up due to Jackson being so peaceful in the last 5 years. Even in the interview with Troy Baker he explains what Joels thinking in the scene. That he knows he fucked up and let his guard down, because he saw a girl Ellie's age in danger and he acted with his heart instead of his head. This scene panning out this way also adds another layer of Ellie's guilt, because she probably knows she's the reason why he let his guard down because of him changing his ways. Listen people can not like the decision he made, but to say that its completely out of character and wasn't set up well with the games prior scenes I think is incorrect. I'd imagine 90% of people who feel wrongly about his motives in that scene didnt play the game and don't have the 3 hours of context before that.
@marsjacobvolta You do realize the beginning scene of Part 2 is 4+ years before the occurences of most of Part 2? Much has changed since then in regards to Joel and Tommy. Also, all these "sadistic" things you see in Abby, are because they are trying to parallel her to Joel. Abby's dive into madness and revenge is meant to parallel Joel's. Everything Abby did Joel did more and then some. I quote from the first game "So you killed a bunch of innocent people?" "I'll take that as a yes." You don't get to separate Joel's wrong doings from his character unless you also do it for Abby.
I walked into Fight Club maybe at the halfway point (I was 16 at the time and couldn't get a proper ticket) and watched it 'til the end. The next time I saw it, that knowledge was with me from the beginning. So, essentially I spoiled the beginning of it for myself. Loved it btw.
I really think this would've been better told as a mini series. Imagine having the Joel scenes as Better Call Saul style opening flashbacks while they go through the story. When you're constantly breaking tension for non linear storytelling in a game, it really takes me out of the experience, personally.
Finished the game two hours ago. The environment, combat, and stealth are stellar. My opinion concerning the story is mixed. The ending was too open. Ellie was cool and I liked how it explored her psychopathic side. Personally, I really liked Abby as a character as well as her bond with Lev which I interpret as a gender-bent Joel & Ellie.
I always forget his face until I see it again and just imagine his cartoon face (or whatever I am happening to imagine him as at the moment) as a person talking.
The spoilers did not ruin the game. I went in fully blind and grew to hate it. I only really saw leaks towards the end of the game and at that point I would’ve been a lot angrier if I found out what happened by myself.
Somebody did a video about how everything in the beginning is too coincidental, but after replaying the first game that one has the same problem. What it takes for Joel and Ellie to get together feels like a series of coincidences. But no one questions that because they like where the story went in part 1. Just my thoughts, replay the first part and tell me that opening section doesn’t feel rushed. I just think they did that so they can move on to a more important part of the story, instead of trying to flesh out just the set up.
Joel and Tess went to Robert for their guns who just sold them to the Fireflies.In order to get their guns back they agreed to escort a girl to the rest of the Fireflies because Marlene was unable to do so. Quite the difference to running into the guy you wanted to kill and have him exactly where you wanted him to, not even mentioning that the guy you wanted to kill also agreed to go into your base.
Coffee Addict how are you gonna look at the events of the first game and not say it all happened fast to get on with the story, the fact that Marlene is RIGHT there waiting for Joel and Tess to finish Robert off. It also doesn’t make a whole lot of sense for Marlene to ask them to take Ellie, if Ellie really is that important why did she trust her with them? Marlene even thinks it was a bad idea, if you read her journal in the hospital she even says it made no sense for her to have done that. It’s also quite convenient that Joel and Tess happened to run into Marlene RIGHT when they needed her, RIGHT when Ellie needed to be moved out of Boston, RIGHT when supposedly a bunch of her men died, RIGHT when Marlene is injured. Even if Marlene did lose a lot guys she still had the recourses to get Ellie across the country before Joel could. All I’m trying to say is I can nitpick the beginning of the first game too, it’s just harder to do because everyone liked that game.
@@SinthetikLED Marlene also wanted to get to Robert, she got there too late and was injured as she and her organization were being hunted by FEDRA. She says this, she also says that Joel and Tess were not her first picks but are desperate to get Ellie out as FEDRA are busy annihilating the fireflies. I don't see how this isn't a justifiable sequence of events. Abby runs into Joel out of mere coincidence via running from a hoard of zombies. The two are not comparable.
Here's how I view this game after finally playing it for sometime now (but have seen it through to the end via streams), it is definitely in line with the mixed reviews that compliment the graphics and gameplay to relatively high to pretty good qualities in them. Where it loses me personally, is the disjointed and slow, plodding nature of the story interspersed between the amazingly inventive moment to moment gameplay that is littered throughout the encounters. On top of that, I could care less for the newer characters and their paper thin story/character arcs in the second half be it with Ellie or even Abby's group. Ultimately, I can't help but feel the same directionless and overbearing nihilistic brutal tone of the story/world that made Alien 3 a hot mess as well. Ultimately, I'm glad I did play it (especially for the low price of $1 via Gamefly) but I don't see myself going back into this one for sure and definitely a game that is worth discount/bargain price if you are curious or a fan of the first game.
It was not the same Joel did not torture and kill the doc in front of Abby. Joel only killed the doc because he cnarged Joel with a knife and Joel had to get Ellie out of the Hospital. It was really not the same.
The zebra scene is to show how Abby sees her dad. She has a romanticised version of him. The conversation with Marlene, which Abby misses the start of, shows he's not a saint but still is understandable.
I think having something spoiled for you, no matter the medium, is going to drastically dampen your enjoyment. Like, I'm not going to be motivated to read a book, watch a movie or play a game if I know what happens in each chapter/act. I avoided all leaks for the game, and by the time I finished the story I really enjoyed my time with it. I'd give it a solid 9.0/10
The game show they had argument over it but Owen and Abby chosed to spare them cus they came to Joel and Joel only they didnt care about Ellie or Tommy...they just left them and disappear however they accidentally showed they were from the WLF and i guess it was cus Joel and Tommy came from the storm and Abby's friends were not prepared for Joel to come and Tommy saw their clothes with the symbols of WLF. They didnt even knew that Ellie getting inside their place and it was all rush for them to do what they wanted to do and go away.
Nice to hear some interesting and sensible thoughts about the good and bad in the game. I didn't agree with all the points but they were fairly made. I loved it so the good obviously outshone the bad for me. The average score of 5 doesn't give any real clue about the game. When you expand the user scores out, virtually no one gives the game a 5. It's nearly a 50/50 split between 8-10 or 0-4 with 8-10 being slightly further ahead.
I don't personally think this game's goal was condemning Joel and his choices, just like how I don't think the first game was attempting to justify it. In Part 1 you see his own perspective which allows you to understand and empathize with his decisions, but whether or not you actually agree with them is entirely up to you. With Part 2, since it's showing Joel from two different perspectives (both of which are against him and his choices) it makes sense that they wouldn't portray him as a hero nearly as much. The first game gives you a perspective that allows you to empathize with and understand him, the second game provides two different perspectives that allow you to understand why others wouldn't.
A bit late to the party, but I really don't see this dissonance that they talk about, those moments where Ellie is impacted by killing other people are contextually different than the people she kills in the gameplay, is really clear to me, Nora was the first person she tortured, she doesn't feel a thing about killing Owen and even keeps pushing him to talk, just when she realises that she killed a pregnant women she is bothered by it, I get if you find cheap that Mel is pregnant, but I think that is besides this point, and finally, regarding Abby, they even commented on the fact that she is weak, has been starved, has a child to take care of and just guided her to a escape after sparing her twice, only after having a PTSD flashback Ellie pushes herself to confront her. I feel that if Ellie had killed Abby it would have been really cheap, it would have cemented this story as "just a revenge story" that some people see it. Anyway, I actually enjoyed your discussion, it felt honest despite my disagreements.
Finally, the realm is returning to the normal - the one I need to not go insane. We do need to rebuild but seeing these lads in one room like in the old days is one of the few bits of actual genuine hapiness in months for me. And the format is just great. Thanks lads
Naughty Dog's decision to kill off both Ellie and Abby and then have you play as the Nostalgia Critic for the last 1/3 of the game was really strange, and I'm not sure how I feel about it.
He survives the apocalypse so you don't have to
But the death of linkara scene was pretty epic!
You know what? That would be a pretty different game if that happened. 10 points for you.
My favorite part of the game tbh, but i could see how it might be offputting for someone, especially when you use his racial slur power
@@bozotheclown666 Though I could have done without the 2 hour rape cut scene.
I like how the dark storyline of the last of us 2 has been mirrored beautifully by the lack of lighting in this ep.
Zach Snyder was uncredited as the DP for this episode.
Anton Mink except this episode was actually good and didn’t end with his moms name
Glad you finally got Cyborg to come on the cast. The lack of diversity up until this point was really shameful
Ah, you want diversity? Listen to the forced diversity podcast. ruclips.net/channel/UCiNediqB-JC_TjbsB4hJuHA
Ride ain’t over yet
I don’t think it’s as bad as they say, I just don’t think it’s as good as they say
It just seems mediocre.
Best comment I’ve seen on the game. Cheers!
I think it’s more good than its bad (I can understand 10s but I can’t understand the 0s)
Yeah it’s like a 7
it's average i guess
I’ve been honestly anticipating your guy’s discussion on this game because I knew I would finally get an actual logical review & understandable opinions. Just honestly thanks for just giving a honest take while considering both sides to each subject. & of course for actually finishing the game to give an actual genuine review.
Completely agree! Been trying to engage with some people who I don't share an opinion with to have a discussion and it's ends with me being accused of being paid by Sony 😅
Try this review, I found it to be the best one of them all
ruclips.net/video/94XxmSGhrDE/видео.html
Lexus Cast Woah where's your pfp from?
If it helps, I didn't look at the leaks at all whatsoever and I still had the same reaction as you guys. I liked Abby, Dina, Jesse, Ellie, Joel, etc, but I really didn't like the execution. It's one of those situations where I see what they were going for, but I kinda feel like the just farted and shitted and peeded.
What didn't you like?
@@LORDdrPepper yeah but that's vague
I love that last scene with Joel. When he says he'd do it all over again, to me it actually changes his entire motivation. When Joel took Ellie from the hospital, he did it out of selfishness. He did it because he couldn't stand to lose her. He knew she would be willing to die for a cure and he didn't care. When he lies to her about it for two years he was still trying to avoid paying the cost of that decision. The cost he was trying to avoid wasn't being beaten to death by a golf club, it was losing Ellies love. In the end, the lies hurt Ellie as much as what he did. Her happiest memories of him are now tainted by it. When he says at the end that he'd do it all over again, he has experienced the personal cost about for two years and is willing to accept it. By saying he would save her even if it cost his most precious thing (his relationship with her) it makes what he did, whether right or wrong, a selfless act rather than a selfish one. By being honest he gives her the choice of what to do about it and she realises she can love him without condoning what he did.
Hey you! This is phenomenal. I intially misread the ending of the game and when I discussed it with my friends who both disliked the game, while it liked it for the most part. I said I thought by Joel stating ‘he would do it all over again’ it meant he wouldn’t take the same course of action, as I was arguing in favour of the game redeeming Joel morally, as this could be seen in him helping Abby, and being more affable etc. But they argued that his death was senseless as he was never redeemed and his relationship with Ellie was never truly restored, making it just depressing. They showed me the scene again, and I was wrong. But this reading validated my argument again that despite his actions disenfranchising and ruining the lives of Abby etc, the game still recontextualises Joel as a less egoistic individual making Ellie’s forgiveness of him just
@@lustrazor44 I'm not sure what you mean as the only choice I mention is here is her choice of whether to forgive him or not. Are you talking about originally, where neither Joel nor the Fireflies gave her a choice about whether to sacrifice herself or not?
It seems a bit unfair to be mad at Joel for seemingly taking away Ellie's choice with the potential cure when that's exactly what the Fireflies were doing.
Good point, actually
Ellie wanted to get sacrificed though
@@grrrr255 She only says that after the fact though. Joel would have had no idea that she was willing to die for a chance at the cure, and the Fireflies didn't wait for her to wake up after nearly drowning to ask her.
mroczny olek13 Shouldn’t a traumatized 14 year old make a decision like that after being given even just a few days to think about it? Neil Druckmann might say a vaccine would have resulted from a Ellie’s death but in-universe there’s at least one note saying other immune people died in failed attempts. Plus I find it hard to believe that there aren’t more immune people in other parts of the world and the characters simply don’t know cause they’re stuck in the U.S. plus how the hell are they going to manufacture and distribute a vaccine on a wide scale when society is non-existent for most people and the Fireflies are on their last legs? Even by Part 2 when they’re regrouping they only have 200 people.
Two wrongs don’t make a right. And besides, anyone who knows Ellie from the first game would know she’d take the sacrifice.
i feel like i'm the only person on planet earth that didn't see any leaks at all, i knew the game was coming out, i didn't know when and when it dropped, i played it and completed it and i didn't even know it got review bombed or leaked. i think my youtube recommended must be broken
that's weird, I watched a few playthroughs after completing the game and also while I was playing throught the game and now my youtube reccomendations are a mess, "Neil cuckman, she-hulk, SJWs, Soy Backer..." are all words that I've seen so much times now that I could die.
I knew there was leaks but ignored them.
I knew about the bad rating while I was playing it but that's it went in unspoiled
dang i don't really play video games and i never played the last of us yet somehow the news about the leaks reached me. the internet is weird
So what did you think of the game having none of that prior info?
The ending of the game really got me, when Tommy Wiseau appeared and proclaimed "if a lot of people love each other the world will be a better place to live " and Ellie and Abby laugh and they play some Golf with Joel, powerful stuff.
Yeah, remember when Abby let Ellie bite off her fingers to make it even? So inspiring
The fact that this game was compared to schindlers list just shows the absolute state of "game journalism"
It has a little something for everyone
Stop regurgitating what everyone has been saying about that tweet. Jason Schreier is being absolutely asinine in believing that the TLOU2 is being directly compared to Schindler's in terms of plot, even Cory Barlog said as much
Jason Schreier is a man baby who can't take criticism. And the fact you take him seriously dissapoints me more than he does.
and the other day, some simp journo from gamespot was trashing angry joe and calling him a sexist just because he hated the story and gave the game a 6/10
The first game was Citizen Kane, but of a stretch if you ask me.
If James doesn't appear contrasting the others opinions I'm unsubbing
It is good to have a different voice on the podcast though. Plus James himself and how they talk shit to James fucking cracks me up.
I think it would've worked better if the tale was told chronologically, it felt so forced when you're 20 hours in and it only JUST THEN develops abby
Got to that point in 10 hours and it still felt waaaay too late. Should’ve been switching between characters throughout with the Joel flashbacks happening first.
@@MetaMetro3 it would've spoiled the "shock" moment of joels death but i think it also would've been better if it BUILT UP to abby killing joel instead of what they did
I understand, I think it’s the more interesting choice to develop Abby afterward. I don’t know if you’ve seen the film funny games, but the thesis statement by Haneke the director, is to goad the audience almost. It’s a home invasion film, where the killers are aware it’s a movie, the point is to show the audience that the violence on screen does have consequences, despite how we act as though it’s just spectacle, the violence is literally funded by us. The game goads you into hating Abby, then attempts to contextualise her under a new light for the audience. Which I like more. But. Last of us is a mainstream commodity, Druckmann is not Haneke, you can only be so subversive when you’re making a £50 game for a massive audience. And while I like the decision they went with, the back lash is obvious
What they were going for was putting the player into Ellie's shoes first, solely, so that way we can empathise with her cause, but then it does a bait-and-switch by forcing us to play as Abby so that way we understand her story. We don't have to agree, just understand. If it was told chronologically, then we would feel more connection to Abby but it would make our connection to Ellie's want for revenge lessened. It's a double edged sword either way, but I think they way they chose to present it was a bit more interesting yet clunky.
@@ilikerice5208 It's also simply that much harder to pull off, and the fact they tried to do so with such meandering pandering (namely the dogs) just makes the intention obvious. I would argue that this idea works better for an episodic series than a video game. It sacrificed too much to put in those ideas you find "interesting," and story falters for it
i really enjoyed the game however i don't know how to feel about the 30 minute unedited cutscene of ellie eating spaghetti and meatballs
I dont know where this meme came from, but I want more of it
Hopefully the sequel will be better:
Last of us part 3: Tokyo Drift
Last of us part 3: Age of Ultron
The Last Of Us Part 3 and the Prisoner of Askaban
The Last of Us part 3: eLEVtric Bungaloo
If Last Of Us Part 3 is the Rattlers side I'm out. They were the only feckers I felt no guilt over killing in the whole game...
We need more "is _ as _ as they say"
It’s not as bad as the haters say but it’s not as good as the people who praise it say.
But some people who kind of dislike it sort of got it right, and others that sort of like it are, in part, wrong.
@@Basteal what most people are disagreeing on is the story which is completely subjective. How a story makes you feel can't really be right or wrong
@@joyontheleft We're not talking about how story makes us feel, we're talking about how well written it is, which is not subjetive.
@@joyontheleft It's not 100% subjective.
BirdsElopeWithTheSun
and it is well-written for the most part. it does its job, but how well it does its job varies from person to person. there's a ton of controversy simply because it took risks, and with risks, controversy is inevitable. Metal Gear Solid 2 is a great example. in fact, history is pretty much repeating itself
Haven't watched the whole thing yet but I got to the bit where they mention how the marketing misleads you in to thinking Joel is more present in the story than he actually is and it reminded me of how Metal Gear Solid 2 hid Raiden in all of the trailers. Surprised Jim didn't mention it since he's a metal gear fan. On that point, I think misleading your audience in the marketing can be effective but it's also kind of a cheap shock move. Really depends how it's handled I suppose.
yeah i agree with the raiden thing, sometimes you just have to hide shit like that in order to fit the narrative
That game did it far, far more effectively than TLOU2.
I like being lied to in terms of story.
Marvel Spiderman gameplay trailer was also misleading. In the trailer spiderman fights Mr. Negative on the helicopter while in the final product you actually fight his goons on the helicopter. Misleading trailer is simply nothing more than a sin in the industry rather than a illegal advertising
@@DeadwingDork oh god yes
Any Mr. Robot fans notice Mac Quayle’s name in the opening credits?
Oh shit wait what? He did the Last of Us music? His score in Mr. Robot is fucking incredible
Also, about Tommy. I would also be pissed if I was being guilt tripped by Ellie (also Joel earlier), laying everything on the line, and then Ellie pulling out. Also he got crippled duren the whole ordeal. Him guilt tripping Ellie in the end made sense and worked for me.
Hello I have a question. If you hate everything's do you hate yourself 🤔
marbar
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As someone who didn't see the leaks I can safely say I was on the edge of my seat through the entire game, Probably a weak ending sure, but it didn't take away from the core experience for me.
Ashken_Dagbul_2008 Agreed. I also think if she would’ve killed abby it would’ve ruined the forgiveness theme that is going on with Joel throughout the games flashbacks.
@Ashken_Dagbul_2008 yes 100% by the end of the game the 'square button' ending qte made so much impact that i hesitated to push the button because I don't want Ellie to kill her. That is the first time I felt so uncertain to push a button.
@Ashken_Dagbul_2008 considering Abby got her revenge and ellie went hundreds of miles after she decided to stop chasing Abby only to then decided again she wanted to go back to chase Abby going forward to the pointless at the end I really don't see how it's perfect.
Mr Saturday Abby got her revenge on Joel but she didn't get revenge for her friends. If she'd killed Ellie and Dina in the Theatre, she'd still have been the same person who killed Joel but the fact she didn't shows she had changed. That's when she ended the cycle for herself. Ellie is left in the position Abby was after her dads death. Suffering flashbacks and unable to get peace and makes the same decision Abby did. I can only get peace by taking revenge. Ellie never got a real choice to give up on revenge until she was at the point of actually taking it by killing Abby. Unlike Abby though Ellie hasn't been obsessing over it for as long. Just like Lev stopped Abby, her final memory of Joel on the porch stopped her. The question is why did it stop her. I certainly can think of several reasons.
@@dogsoldier123 Ellie technically did more damage than Abby when it comes to them hunting each other. Ellie killed way more people that were friends with Abby than Abby did with people Ellie was close with. If you want to get into the technicalities, Abby lost more than Ellie did. She lost her father, Owen, Mel, and multiple other friends within WLF including some of their dog companions. Ellie killing Abby wouldn't have put them on some even middle ground. Joel technically started it and Abby just responded with an eye for an eye. Abby lost her father as a teenager. Ellie killing Abby would've been pointless. The whole reason Ellie went on the hunt to begin with is because she felt guilty for not publicly telling Joel she forgives him. Joel dies thinking she hated him and she hated herself for it. So she went after Abby as a means to prove her forgiveness. We seen Ellie go through a post traumatic episode at the farm. Killing Abby wouldn't have fixed a damn thing. She was already broken by the violence she was seeing and bought through. More if it wouldn't have meant anything.
I do kind of wish that they had more investment in Jesse as they did with Owen, but to be fair, Owen did have a steeper hill to climb to gain a level of sympathy whereas Jesse already was a likeable character to begin with. Needless to say, I’m just nitpicking but this is a great discussion. 👍🏾
I've never heard someone pronounce the word "controversy" like that before and I can't unhear it now
Yeah, british english is strange, innit?
britbong people lol
I’ve gotta disagree on the Uncharted 4 AI bit, I just replayed a bit of it and Sam is constantly in the way
yeah and the first games ai, ellie literally constantly got in the way i really didnt like it
I don’t think Abby regrets killing Joel, and maybe that’s another reason people don’t like her. Her arc is really about her finally getting what she wanted and realizing it as all for nothing. Even though she got her revenge she still had night terrors about her dad, she still was distant with her loved ones. She ends up losing everything and even her own idea of justice couldn’t help her. Ellie and Abby are on the same journey but at different points, at the end of game Ellie is where Abby was at the start.
But Abby did realize killing Joel did nothing for her. The look on her face after she killed him was the look of not being satisfied. If you watched that scene again and focus on her looks, you'll see how she doesn't feel relief after she killed him while hearing Ellie's screams. Right there in that moment, she realized that killing Joel did nothing for her, and she didn't get her Father back. Just like those nightmares she kept having, until she saw her Dad smiling in a dream, which was less of a reminder of both her insanity and fears.
I personally think the main problem is that these fucking characters just never talk it out, at the theater after a fight scene would have been a great time for either of them to say ANYTHING, well, okay, emotions were high and Abby was pissed, fine. But what about the end, they're all buddy buddy for the few minutes and neither of them says a word? Or how about after the fight when Ellie is crying, does Abby apologize, thank her for letting her live or for saving her life? No? She just walks off the screen and fucks off the story? Nice, good characters, I can totally believe that they would have enough sympathy for each other to not kill the other after what each of them did
Did you forget the part where Abby accepts her fate and punishment and the only reason she didn’t let ellie kill her was because she threatened to murder lev?
Louie209 yeah I tried to mention that I do think Abby is torn up because killing Joel didn’t make her feel better, not necessarily that she feels bad for Joel, maybe I’m just too cynical but at the end of the day Joel still killed her dad. I think Abby regrets not getting any satisfaction out of killing Joel, if that’s makes sense? Like besides her look after killing Joel she doesn’t do anything to express regret, if she really felt bad for what she did she should have tried expressing it more to Ellie.
Stev Sux It’s hard to say but I think it’s because there is some resentment still there. Just because they were able to overcome their differences doesn’t necessarily mean they’re best friends. Like they still did some fucked up things to each other, but I think the point is that they realize they have better things to worry about, that holding onto a grudge will only cause more hate and violence. I think they showed this pretty well with Dina and Lev but they showed instead of out right told us.
My only real problem with the game is the nonlinear story. The constant use of flashbacks forces the pacing to grind to a halt, and it really cripples the replay value.
@Rohan Bais I don't mind that it's different. And like the JAR guys said, it was is the only way that this story could be effectively told. I just don't wanna play the game multiple times because the gameplay of the flashbacks is so slow. It helps tell the story, but it makes NG+ runs tedious.
I understand the message behind the ending, but because I inherently love Joel more than I like Abby, it genuinely just feels emotionally unsatisfying; for me, there's no real catharsis for me... I get it, but I kinda hate that's the fate Ellie had to have in the end..
it unironically made me really happy to hear you read my question, thx!
Good thing on ya, man.
This is one of the best discussions on this game.
I think the thing about TLOF2 that annoys me the most, is that there were powerful story moments for me. I was invested in Ellie forgiving Joel, Forgiving Abby, and Forgiving herself for how she treated Joel after she found out what he'd done. It was very moving for me, when she lost those fingers, and realized what she was doing.
The problem with this game, as a sequel to the first, is that you're already at an extremely developed, invested point in Ellie and Joel's characters at the beginning of the game, and that's not really explored again until the end. I don't think it's unreasonable for the fan, at that point, to assume the writers have dropped the ball after 7 years. I like a lot of reviews reflect this impatience and lack of confidence. Once I hit the end, and realize what kind of story I'd been told, I thought it was really well done. I like that it didn't hold my hand and tell me how to feel. There were long stretches during Ellie's campaign where I was totally lost on how I should feel, and if you think about it, that's how Ellie felt. Man that sounds lame.
I've get the sense from most Ellie's campaign, that you're not supposed to be able to read the 'mood' correctly, because Ellie can't herself. I always looked at Diana as a 'mood killer' in the beginning, and wished Ellie was doing shit alone. But when she did, she did terrible things, so I wasn't sure that was good either. Then when I played as Abby, I paused for a bit and thought, Abby is way more straight forward. I knew how to feel, when I wasn't hating her for killing Joel. I got into the idea that I was being mislead intentionally. And once the game was over, and Ellie finally gets some clarity on why she was so tortured, I felt that hit home so strongly.
I wish the game had more moments like this. And the funny thing is, most of the 'feels good to know this character' moments happen in Abby's segment. Ellie's parts feel almost devoid of feels comparatively.
I think that's fair. I think one of the things that I love, but also frustrates me, about this game is that as soon as you can sense a moment in which you as a player will get something that you deem to be satisfactory, it gets taken away from you. It's a VERY risky move that not a lot of developers can get away with, but this one works for some bizarre reason. In addition, the colors in Abby's story are a lot more vibrant and colorful, they're full of life and brightness, whereas Ellie's is very dark and bleak; I think that's the intention of the creators to paint this narrative story into two different pools of emotion--Ellie's representation of rage throughout the first 3 days, and Abby's stage of redemption through those 3 days. Quite fascinating.
I feel differently. I've never really felt much of anything in a videogame story. I've been touched by plenty of media in other categories. For some reason Abbys reaction to Mels comments in the Aquarium struck a chord with me.
I totally agree. The story is really good on paper and when you lay it all out, but the telling of this great story (and some pacing) faulters. They do not make certain motivations that are crucial for the story to work clear enough. I still really love the game, and if everyone else was loving it too, I would give it a 10 personally. But because of how divisive it has been I just cant give it the "perfect" 10 because it feels misleading. I just wish the game was better told so that all players got all of the story they wanted to tell. Not calling anyone stupid for "not getting it" either because it most definetly is the storytellings fault for not making things clear.
@@erundorgames8941 Am I saying it always is the storytellings fault? No. I truly believe that THIS story has faults in telling and pacing from all of the videos I have watched where the opinion about the game differs from mine (and of course my own opinions). Is it not the storys fault for not making that many players care about it in the "intended" way? That is my main critisism. I truly believe it is a great story that is not told as well as it could have been. That is why I give it a 9 (or not a "perfect" 10) as well, because of that fault that is pretty important and has impacted the enjoyment of both me and other players. Because if everyone enjoyed it, the storytelling and pacing issues would not have existed to that extent. Maybe I did not make this point clear enough in my first comment. Is that fault on the writer or reader tho ;)
I didn't even know the TLOU2 got leaked until the game was officially released. That being said, I have a love for the game I can't really describe honesty. I'd say it's more of an appreciation, but there is still love there. Probably because I feel like the story is real. And the story isn't perfect, but I feel like it's good. Basically like life, it's not perfect, but it can be good. I feel like It's not necessarily the sequel anyone wanted, but I feel like it was needed.
I had my doubts throughout the game, but after sitting on the whole story, sleeping on it, and really thinking about the characters, empathizing with them, and the parallels, I feel like Naughty Dog did a good job with what they were to portray. I honestly couldn't see it going any other way.
I understand the critiques and why people even hate it, but I'm glad Naughty Dog took a risk tbh. The game left me feeling somber/sad, especially in the ending but I think in the midst of it all (some people/me) we're able to gain some closure with what they've given us so far. I'd give it, an 8/10. Not only do I have an appreciation for the story, but the gameplay and the graphics are top-notch too!
Let me just refute why an open world game wouldn’t work for the terrible pacing of this game. In an open world, you have to have side quests otherwise it ends up like Mafia ll. Beautiful world, but nothing to do in it other than travel long distances to each objective. With last of us 2, the revenge angle is so insular and Ellie is so determined on that one path... that having side quests or a huge open world just wouldn’t work for the story they wanted to tell.
Now don’t get me wrong having a story like this last 25 hours also didn’t work at all... however If the story was 15 hours long... with linear gameplay without so much meandering repetitive moments I think this game could’ve been a masterpiece.
Nevermind, jarlings.
It does feel a bit long, but listening to Troy Baker and Neil Druckmann talk about the pacing, they mention that we're meant to feel like it's going on too long. We're meant to think "how is this still going?" because that's how the characters feel. I still think it should've been cut down a bit, but so much feels intentional when analysed that I'd be hard pressed to think of stuff to remove, at least in terms of story moments. Some gameplay moments are way too long, especially the really open Seattle bit, that drags bad.
Emery Memery The issue is on how they refer to this game at all. They talk about it like a movie, and while games certainly can reach those narrative standards, it still has to be a fun game before anything else. And making the player go long distances over and over and killing the already poor pacing is just a bad decision.
If people criticized Death Stranding for doing the same thing, it seems a little weird that TLoU2 has gotten away with it
@@emerymemery3653 With that being the case, you should expect people to not like the pacing. Just because it means to do something, doesn't mean it does it correctly: ie Alex being more frustrated at the set up to Joel's death than the event itself or having to slog through to the climax again after the story already amped you up for it. The latter is fine in other formats, especially an episodic series (for a movie Abby's section would still need a bit of pacing reworking), but in the game where you actively participate, that's going to felt in a different, likely more negative way
@@emerymemery3653 I'm sorry but Druckman and Baker are dumbasses then. They are justifying making a shitty decision by implying it was intentional. I can "accidentally" file the wrong tax expenses someone did and when I am caught I will just say "it was intentional ya see. Now your mind is open to the fact I'm a piece of shit." Furthermore, Druckman puts too much of himself in the game and is terrible at writing 18 year olds.
X.A.N.A It only gets a pass because of the fanboys. The fanboys for this game are pathetic and will defend it at any cost. I personally know a diehard fanboy and me and our friend make fun of him all the time.
I mean, I'd say the biggest leak in Video Game history is still Half Life 2, like the whole game got leaked that time, sure the levels were still pretty unfinished and some were the Beta versions, but damn that one was a hard one
Half Life 2 came out before the internet was a big deal, so nobody cares. Plus, that game is better
@@frogglen6350
He wasn't arguing quality though. Just how big the leak was. And, they were just throwing in their two cents. Whether or not anyone cares is up to the reader themselves.
Honestly they should have just released the game as is. But what we got is still pretty great.
Where is James? Is he safe, is he alright
praise to allah jar. 😌
Masha'allah
Habibi, mu'kda
Amen brother
aceman0000099 Masha'allah
Mashaallah
Start the game with the Abby and Jerry zoo scene, perfectly leads into the Joel and Tommy scene, cut the Ferris wheel and Christmas flashback (and the Owen relationship, he does nothing but hinder Abby's story. He's such a doorknob). Jesse should've been with Joel and Tommy, taking Tommy's place with the guilt as Tommy is forced to stay home from injuries, cut the guitar strings flashback with Joel and Ellie, have the climax of Ellie and Abby happen at the Seraphites island rather than Santa Barbara (or if you're gonna have it in Santa Barbara, make it vengeful WLF's not some random new group)
But that's such an unoriginal story if we know why Abby killed Joel. Ellie doesn't know why when it happens and neither should we. It is far more challenging for the players to get to know Abby after.
I like to think the Rattlers were old Fireflies who rebranded and started a slave society.
@@pulpficti Being bold/original doesn't make it good
My changes would be eerily similar to yours and I've thought about them for a while, except I wouldn't have you play as Abby again after the prologue and I like the Owen relationship and would keep it(nix Mel and Rev though). I liked having Owen as Abby's moral conscious. Then when he dies she just completely loses it. And Ellie actually killing her in the end losing everything in the process would have been a haunting ending that's true to the first.
Still a solid game.
@@Crow-qm7zw I reckon it should've been a choice for sure
I feel like I’m the only person on the planet that really enjoyed this game.
Enjoyed it too. I dont think its a masterpiece though. But, it is good.
Right there with you. Aside from a few game mechanic nit picks, I loved it. And Ioved the story 100%.
I enjoyed it a lot. although it was too long. they should have ended it before the rushed ending. at the farm. and perhaps taken their time to make a dlc instead.
As am I
Nah, I'd give this game a solid 8.5/10. Honestly, if I knew more about storytelling, and what they did specifically too skirt norms, I'd probably give it an 11/10. I'm too ignorant though :(
cyborg has some good opinions in this one
I'm so glad James mentioned the notes! I loved the notes in this game. Every time I saw one I wasn't like "fuck, that's not a the whole piece of cloth I thought it was" like I did in the first. Lots of really interesting characters and stories to read there.
So the problem with changing the focus from ellie to abby is that it is interrupting the urgency of the plot and telling practically a filler sidequest. Doesn't help that the gameplay without that plot urgency is not that great either
Love the lighting
"Lighting"
@@offended323 do you want to take this outside minger
@@vivlaughlove_
Take this outside in the light?
The first killer for this game for me was the 10/10 reviews across the board from game critics calling it a masterpiece. It’s by no means a 4/10 but not is it a 10/10/10/10/10.
Its "art" apparently
Oh in it’s highest form! And that’s just the muscular sex scenes!
@JL-XrtaMayoNoCheese idk, the first Uncharted still exists... And that is a complete wet fart of an experience lol
It was very shitty how this game got leaked and ruined for the majority of people looking forward to the game, I don’t care if you think the game is good or not, it sucks to have something you are looking forward to ruined like this.
They should have had Joel die later in the game after youd already been playing as Abby for a while. Make you really relate and like this new character and then cause a lot confliction by having her, the person you were just playing, kill off the main character
I don't think that could have worked. The game has pacing issues already and Joel's death was the inciting incident. Pushing it further back means that we have to wait that much longer for the story got started.
I agree with what you say but at the same time I feel like making us care about Abby after killing Joel is a way to test or bias with this characters, because both Abby and Ellie have very similar situations and motivations that If you think that one of them is an evil person, why dont you think the other one is when both do almost exactly the same?
@@howiehiew ya if u try to fit it in one game, u just cant fix the pacing issue. I think wat could have helped was if part 2 focused mainly on Abby story and part 3 used the story from this game that way u dont get alot of flashbacks and back and forth
@@howiehiew you're right, Joel is the pushing point for the story to get rolling, which is why it's baffling that the whole point of the story gets dropped for side stories so often, which is why it should have gotten pushed further into the game and had the filler garbage removed
I would say that, while the story on the surface is about Ellie forgiving Joel, really the story is about Ellie forgiving herself for treating Joel the way she did. That's what the ending brings out for me, and how I think the flashbacks are supposed to be interpreted. It's not clear before the ending though, and I think that's intentional as a kind of internal plot.
I'm only 18 minutes in so I'm sorry if this does get addressed but one common misconception i have seen about this game is that it forces you to try and forgive abby. Imo it's not about forgiving but understanding. The game requires the player to understand that even if we love Joel, he has still done horrible things and isn't our knight in shining armor. It requires us to also understand that Abby isn't some 2-dimensional villain we first thought she was and that she is equally as bad as characters we love like Joel or Ellie. I never forgave Abby, i wanted her dead throughout the entire game, however, i wasn't unhappy with the ending, i actually really like what they did with the ending, and feel Ellie sparing Abby was the right decision. That's just my interpretation anyway, i just feel its worth considering for anyone that thinks you are forced to sympathize with or forgive abby.
I liked it. Really tests your empathy. On the other hand, it’s not the sequel anyone was wanting or expecting. I can perfectly see why people would love or hate it. A lot of folks are making Last Jedi comparisons but I see it more as this gen’s Metal Gear Solid 2. There’s more emphasis on metanarrative, themes and a bait and switch protagonist than the first game.
And to add to that comparison. Everyone hated MGS2 at launch and it took a few years for people go back and try to understand what was actually being said in it.
@@smelly42 haha except raiden does not club snake to death the gameplay was great tlou2 does not have that they will never make 3 rd game for sure
The problem with your and Garth's comparisons is that Raiden doesn't actively do anything to Snake. If anything, part of the reason this all works in MGS2 is because Snake takes up the role of the guiding hand and helps Raiden get to a point where he is free to make his own choices. Abby is just another person living a scummy life in the apocalypse who brutally tortures a pre-established character to death and ultimately is only that to Ellie. Also MGS2 isn't a constant fucking downer, like any MGS games there times of levity and plain old fun set pieces
@@relic5752 the fact you don't find the set pieces given in the game fun are a personal preference (I found them all much more fun to play through than the first game)and over analyzing our commentson the character flip is kinda funny as the point being made is on the forced perspective shift, not how it plays out in the story. The only valid point is that it's a downer story through I find that to be a poor excuse to call this a terrible game when forcing humor or more light hearted points would have made it feel much more forced than the shallow new side characters.
@@smelly42 I would not call that a personal preference at all to be honest. People use that excuse to mostly deflect criticism.
The game got review bombed 2 hours after release so I'm confident in saying most negative reviews are from people who haven't even played the game.
The game most definitely has problems however those aren't the problems gamers care about. Just go to the last of us 2 sub reddit they fucking despise the character abby from way before the game leaked, calling her trans because of how masculine she is and discussing how they want to torture her. There's even a fan comic about it. It's actually super fucked up.
I saw a few comments on one the videos showing joels death scene with people talking about how they want to kill the developers. Laura bailey is getting harassed and sent threats over things her character did. It's pathetic and uncalled for just look at this shit
twitter.com/LauraBaileyVO/status/1279173199918292992?s=20
You can apply the same to people who instantly give games a 10/10 1 hour after release *BOTW*
@@frogglen6350 How does that excuse anything?
What about all the reviewers who got payed to review the game? The game is bad, u don’t need a review to think so
Romaine Lettuce they got the game beforehand and its not the totally best game ever but I think its a good game in many ways with its own flaws
@@frogglen6350 and which of those two crowds talk about how they want to ruin neil druckmanns life.
Happy to hear an actual thoughtful discussion on this game for once.
The amount of content u guys are releasing is unreal. Keep it up boyos 😁
I dont think Ive seen a discussion/review that resonated with how I felt so much. Its not perfect, but its far FAR better than what people made it out to be, and theres a strong chance that if the leak never happened that it wouldnt be as polarized (mainly by people who got caught in the circlejerk without even fucking TOUCHING the game)
Nah.
@@balabanasireti Yah.
I think you need to give the game, especially its narrative a second thought before making that assessment. You seem to be missing what people criticized it for.
@@JukaDominator Many of the criticisms I agree with, but it by no means it deserved to be review bombed or given anything below a 5-6.
My point is that Im talking about people who have literally never touched the game and just saw the leaks, and gave it shitty reviews the moment it came out. Im willing to accept a 6/10 for this game given the issues and how unconventional it was I believe its trying something different, which fell flat on its face for some people. However, personally I gave it an 8/10 just for having the balls to do it, and among other things that I felt were executed pretty well, such as the combat, design and art direction, and just the overall feeling of a journey I felt I had throughout the game.
I agree with the majority of the criticism, but my point is that the hate was FAR overblown. I believe people could have been mildly disappointed in some story elements, but not like what we had when it launched (and even before them). A lot of the hate for this game came from audiences from "ReDpilEd" RUclipsrs, and then it became just a new fashion to hate on it without even seeing the execution of the game itself. People were prepared to destroy this game because the experience was already spoiled for them, and everyone was treated like an idiot for buying and playing the game and liking it for what it was.
Alex questions SEVERAL times throughout this review that if this game was never spoiled and people just played it without knowing anything, that things maybe have turned out differently. Thats what I was agreeing with.
I think if the leaks never happened it would still be VERY controversial but I feel more would have a balanced opinion
completely agree with the guy who said this game is Ellie's story ( i don't know their names). Despite being a large focus, imo abby is still just a component of ellie's overall story in the game.
abby's story complements Ellie's story and reinforces the themes of the game.
I don't think they're trying to make you "empathise" with the grunts you're killing so much as they are trying to make you feel a little less comfortable about killing people without provocation generally. It's an impossible ludonarrative problem to solve completely, as the player has far less at stake than Ellie as a character in the world. In saying that, it is possible to play through the game without killing anyone in encounter sections. It's hard, but progress is not gated. So kudos to ND for at least creating a world where you can play it according to Ellie's character.
Thirdly - grunts will absolutely kill Ellie onsite. If Owen or Mel was a character who you didn't know just on patrol in one of your encounters, absolutely Ellie might take em out in context within that beat of the story. She quite clearly did that with Vita girl.
Also, when Abby says "you killed my friends" , who's suggesting she's not also referring to a bunch of generic patrolling wolves Ellie killed as well as named characters like Owen and Mel.
But Abby would have probably killed Wolves to get off of Scar Island at that point in time. I don’t think generic NPC’s count as “friends” in that regard.
@@Nassit-Gnuoy she did kill wolves. So no, those wolves were likely not the ones I'm referring to. I'm talking about the hundreds of other wolves Ellie potentially killed who were just on the beat in their respective outposts. Any one of them could've been chummy with Abby back at home base.
There is no ludonarrative dissonance in this game.
@@MarkArnoldMusic Ellie doesn't kill wolves, she kills domestic guard dogs with names and owners who cry when you kill them, but when you play as Abby you only kill wild animals because the devs are begging for you not to think of abby being bad or worse than ellie even if they have to manipulate you emotionally
What is this lighting bruuuv? Mind as well turn the cameras off
I have a feeling TLoU2 is going to follow the same path as Bioshock Infinite where all the people rabidly defending it right now will admit to how shitty it was in a few years and pretend they always felt that way.
Yep. You got it.
Basically
People who think this game's writing and plot is the worst ever made haven't played Ride to Hell: Retribution
(or, to compare to other AAA zombie games, Resident Evil 5 and 6)
People who think this game's writing and plot is the best ever made haven't played Undertale and Stanley Parable.
It's pretty good. A little more than above average; and everyone is overreacting.
This.
hi fanboy :)
@@gutterbaby8382 hi
undertale and stanley parable.. i think there are much better examples you could put there, god of war, Majoras mask, the original last of us
I would give this game like a 6 or 7 out of 10. That is fine, but sucks when the first game was like an 11/10.
The first game was about a 7, max 8 for me. It took me about three months to complete, but I truly enjoyed the second one
As someone who played both for the first time back to back, I can confidently say the second is better in almost every single way.
Better level design, sound design, animation (holy hell that animation), lighting, gameplay, set pieces - the only thing I would say is up for debate is the story. And while I enjoy the second one more, I think both games elevate each other’s story. That’s why the second is called Part II.
They're talking about the video game but all I hear is erotic asmr
40:28 in this scene yeah I felt like it was a bit cheesy but then when she left them alone I thought about Ellie and how she lost the closest relationship she’s ever had and now feels like an outsider in the only important relationship she’s got left and that’s lonesome af
The whole thing about Abby's dad I felt could have been handled better. Why would he just decide to kill a child without even asking her first? If he had woken Ellie up and told her that making a vaccine would kill her I'd give more of a shit about Joel killing him. What kind of person would do that, even for the greater good? Abby comforts him and tells him that if she was immune she'd want him to do the surgery on her. That's great and all, but you never asked. I'm confident Ellie would have done it and Joel wouldn't have killed them, but this being TLoU I could definitely see the vaccine not working and her death being for nothing.
To answer each question/comment:
"Why would he just decide to kill a child without even asking her first?" - Because of how he would feel when hearing someone who is immune has a cure after 20 some years of an outbreak. In the first game this is touched upon by Tommy when he questions Joel on why Ellie is with him. He finds it impossible that a cure can be found at this point and just thinks its bs but when he personally accompanies Joels to find her and fights off the bandits dealing with Tommy's town, it makes him believe him and is willing to do the job since its what the Fireflies wanted and he was one that felt could be his duty to do when he was one. That same idea is here but from the perspective of a doctor who is desperate for a cure and yet still finds it hard to believe anyone is coming when the events of the first game happened over a year and anything could happen along the way at any moment. It's a matter of really understanding the larger world of the Last of Us and applying the time passage as a means of believing for yourself what could be assumed. The fireflies were shown throughout the whole game to be losing and struggling so seeing a cure wind up at their feet just means they will act on it asap even if its a matter of her life. It doesnt mean they are right or wrong for doing it because everyone in that world has done morally questionable things to stay alive.
"What kind of person would do that, even for the greater good?" - Obviously someone who is desperate to change the world even if it meant sacrificing a single individual. It's a very classic moral dilemma case that people to this day debate still: sacrifice one of your own for a bunch of strangers' own lives, with their own children to consider, or not. People will not easily deduce who is right or wrong here for the last part of the first game because its stooped in multiple factors that the second intentionally takes and makes as the main point of the whole narrative. People are complicated and it's why many who condemn Part 2's plot are being too harsh or blind to the way Naughty Dog have show its world for all these years.
"I'm confident Ellie would have done it and Joel wouldn't have killed them"- yet you truly don't know if it would have happened that way because you obviously have never been a parent and Joel seeing Ellie as his daughter would make him save her no matter her decision. The idea 1 and part 2 make is Joel, despite being under the trauma of losing Sarah, couple with his ways of surviving and his journey with Ellie ultimately makes him a monster that wants redemption even if he knows the consequences of what could happen. And many would be confident in that not happening which is EXACTLY why many hated his death because they BELIEVED it would be better. It's a case of Children of Men transferring to Game of Thrones.
I actually like being lied to in marketing in regards to story.
Hey this video mentioned Marlipliar. Does anybody know why Markipliar isn’t playing the Last of Us 2 yet? I’m kinda out of the loop
From hearing a lot of the leaks, I never thought I would dislike Ellie so much and ending up loving all the time spent as Abby. I hated having to go back to Ellie, especially at the end, I really didn't want to hurt Abby. The flashbacks felt great to me and kept me curious to play more. I felt nothing when Abby killed Dina's babydaddy (don't even remember his name) but felt so sad when I had to kill Abby's friend Owen, Mel, hunting down Nora was rough, and Manny's death shocked me so much I'm glad there was a mini cut scene right after for me to breath. I really wanted to help Yara and Lev too, a lot of emotional ups and downs with that stuff. I want Last of Us 2 (not part 2) to be just Abby and Lev.
Christ you have terrible taste
@@TimtheWinzard Thanks for responding with the bare minimum of effort. 5 whole words, I would assume that is an accomplishment for you.
congrats. you have shit taste and let ND manipulate you exactly how they wanted. abby is a horrible, hateful character who had an easy path to her dad's killer who she then tortured RIGHT IN FRONT ELLIE and never once regrets anything she does. ellie meanwhile is forced to keep killing to get closer to abby. she's forced to kill the dogs abby got to play with. she throws up when she learns the girl she killed was pregnant. ellie never gets her revenge and winds up broken and alone. abby got her revenge, never was punished, and gets to be happy and find the fireflies.
@@MrHandss maybe I got manipulate into having a positive experience, doesnt sound like a bad thing tho. Im just happy I got a lot of enjoyment for the money I spent. Better than being part of the screaming voices getting upset about a VIDEO GAME. XD
@@MrHandss Abbys revenge was going after Joel. Ellies revenge is killing everyone she sees. Tell me again who the horrible character is? Abbys dad could have saved a lot of people, Joel just kills him cause he's selfish.
I'm really surprised that more people aren't comparing TLOU2 to the original launch of Metal Gear Solid 2 which did a very similar thing (imagine the twist of TLOU2 except instead of being half of the game it's 90% of the game with a character who is strategically designed to be the exact opposite of the original protagonist everyone loved). The thing is though, while people hated, and I mean HATED Raiden and MGS2 for a loooong time, as the controversy has settled and the series has moved past it, many people, including myself, have gone back to re-evaluate MGS2 as text from a less biased/emotional context and have come to consider it the strongest Metal Gear game both in game design but also in quality of writing and direction. I genuinely wonder if the same will happen with this game. Any time a developer pulls something like this, the immediate reaction is going to be distaste and anger. People don't like being duped especially when they're this emotionally invested in the series and when they're paying $60 for a product they aren't even going to get really. After time progresses and the controversy settles though, I wonder if some people are going to appreciate the subversion or if its going to go down in history as one of the biggest "what the fuck" moments in gaming culture. It's really strange to see this happening again when its almost identical to what we saw back in 2001. It's like total deja vu....
I loved the first game and made a point of avoiding every single trailer and spoiler for part 2. I thought part 2 was amazing and I enjoyed all of it. The only thing I wished is that there was another horde (as is mentioned in the notes you find) in the final part. I love foreign cinema though, and this game had a very independent/foreign cinema feel to it. Excellent views though and it was refreshing to hear a sensible conversation about the game.
You mean with the rattlers? Yeah, adding more moments of Ellie's focus slowly shifting to saving the civilians who were imprisoned and/or enslaved would add more to her redemption (like that of Abby when she helped Yara and Lev), and add more sense to her decision to spare Abby.
@@Ori_Kohav Yeah, with the Rattlers. It felt like the game was preparing me for it to happen. It would have been a good way to bookend the story with a horde at the start and a horde at the end. And yeah, it would have helped Ellie's redemption too :)
@@Ori_Kohav She went to the prison cell with the civilians because that's where the big rattler-guy told her Abby was held so it was totally on focus.
1:12:30 I think the point was that she never tortured someone to death. like they did to Joel and I think that’s what shoot her
i turn up the brightness so i can see Jamie and then the "SPOILERS" text in bright white flashbanged me
started listening to this when i got home drunk yesterday, glad to see it was not a dream. game on.
In regards to Joel's death and the "tone not feeling right." I believe that was intentional, Joel was always going to go out in a random coincidental event. It was never going to be this elaborate planned out heroes death. He'd die on a patrol clearing infected, get caught in the elements, or stumble upon one of the many people who could potentially wanted revenge on him. We were meant to not only feel Ellie's rage, but her confusion, her frustration at this moment. Too soon. Rushed. Why now? How could he let this happen? This scene is more complex than just her rage, it's all her regrets forced to the surface at once. She's almost frustrated with HIM that he could allow himself to let this happen. "GET UP JOEL!" Obviously blooded and beaten and incapable of saving them, she STILL even in the state hes in asks for him to get up and save himself, and her again.
As a Joel I have to say...how DARE they have a character named Joel and kill him off in such a pathetic fashion! Anyone named Joel deserves better!
i think the issue people have more is that it goes against his character to be so trusting in the first place, joel in the entirety of tlou1 was way more cautious, he would not give his full name to randos much less visit them unarmed
Joel deserved to go out in a blaze of glory
Thats the whole thing, the Joel of TLOU1 isnt the Joel of this game. Just curious did you play the game? A lot of the notes and early scenes point towards him softening up due to Jackson being so peaceful in the last 5 years. Even in the interview with Troy Baker he explains what Joels thinking in the scene. That he knows he fucked up and let his guard down, because he saw a girl Ellie's age in danger and he acted with his heart instead of his head.
This scene panning out this way also adds another layer of Ellie's guilt, because she probably knows she's the reason why he let his guard down because of him changing his ways. Listen people can not like the decision he made, but to say that its completely out of character and wasn't set up well with the games prior scenes I think is incorrect. I'd imagine 90% of people who feel wrongly about his motives in that scene didnt play the game and don't have the 3 hours of context before that.
@marsjacobvolta You do realize the beginning scene of Part 2 is 4+ years before the occurences of most of Part 2? Much has changed since then in regards to Joel and Tommy.
Also, all these "sadistic" things you see in Abby, are because they are trying to parallel her to Joel. Abby's dive into madness and revenge is meant to parallel Joel's. Everything Abby did Joel did more and then some. I quote from the first game "So you killed a bunch of innocent people?" "I'll take that as a yes." You don't get to separate Joel's wrong doings from his character unless you also do it for Abby.
I walked into Fight Club maybe at the halfway point (I was 16 at the time and couldn't get a proper ticket) and watched it 'til the end. The next time I saw it, that knowledge was with me from the beginning. So, essentially I spoiled the beginning of it for myself. Loved it btw.
I'm sure James would have had many insightful and complex opinions on this matter...
I really think this would've been better told as a mini series. Imagine having the Joel scenes as Better Call Saul style opening flashbacks while they go through the story. When you're constantly breaking tension for non linear storytelling in a game, it really takes me out of the experience, personally.
How can you review the game on day 1 ? With a game has 25hrs playtime?
Finished the game two hours ago. The environment, combat, and stealth are stellar. My opinion concerning the story is mixed. The ending was too open.
Ellie was cool and I liked how it explored her psychopathic side. Personally, I really liked Abby as a character as well as her bond with Lev which I interpret as a gender-bent Joel & Ellie.
The music was even better in the second in my opinion!!!!! You’re tripping there!!!!!!
get some better lightning boys. Audio is on point tho
Alex (aka I Hate Everything) is once again off camera.... classic J.A.R. media..cringe
I always forget his face until I see it again and just imagine his cartoon face (or whatever I am happening to imagine him as at the moment) as a person talking.
I find it really interesting their constant references to it being a tv show now that we know that's happening
The spoilers did not ruin the game. I went in fully blind and grew to hate it. I only really saw leaks towards the end of the game and at that point I would’ve been a lot angrier if I found out what happened by myself.
As someone who hasn't played this game or read any of the spoilers, this was quite thorough, interesting, and reasonable.
Bro why you shooting this wit the lights off???
Somebody did a video about how everything in the beginning is too coincidental, but after replaying the first game that one has the same problem. What it takes for Joel and Ellie to get together feels like a series of coincidences. But no one questions that because they like where the story went in part 1. Just my thoughts, replay the first part and tell me that opening section doesn’t feel rushed. I just think they did that so they can move on to a more important part of the story, instead of trying to flesh out just the set up.
Joel and Tess went to Robert for their guns who just sold them to the Fireflies.In order to get their guns back they agreed to escort a girl to the rest of the Fireflies because Marlene was unable to do so.
Quite the difference to running into the guy you wanted to kill and have him exactly where you wanted him to, not even mentioning that the guy you wanted to kill also agreed to go into your base.
Coffee Addict how are you gonna look at the events of the first game and not say it all happened fast to get on with the story, the fact that Marlene is RIGHT there waiting for Joel and Tess to finish Robert off. It also doesn’t make a whole lot of sense for Marlene to ask them to take Ellie, if Ellie really is that important why did she trust her with them? Marlene even thinks it was a bad idea, if you read her journal in the hospital she even says it made no sense for her to have done that. It’s also quite convenient that Joel and Tess happened to run into Marlene RIGHT when they needed her, RIGHT when Ellie needed to be moved out of Boston, RIGHT when supposedly a bunch of her men died, RIGHT when Marlene is injured. Even if Marlene did lose a lot guys she still had the recourses to get Ellie across the country before Joel could. All I’m trying to say is I can nitpick the beginning of the first game too, it’s just harder to do because everyone liked that game.
@@SinthetikLED Marlene also wanted to get to Robert, she got there too late and was injured as she and her organization were being hunted by FEDRA. She says this, she also says that Joel and Tess were not her first picks but are desperate to get Ellie out as FEDRA are busy annihilating the fireflies.
I don't see how this isn't a justifiable sequence of events.
Abby runs into Joel out of mere coincidence via running from a hoard of zombies.
The two are not comparable.
Here's how I view this game after finally playing it for sometime now (but have seen it through to the end via streams), it is definitely in line with the mixed reviews that compliment the graphics and gameplay to relatively high to pretty good qualities in them. Where it loses me personally, is the disjointed and slow, plodding nature of the story interspersed between the amazingly inventive moment to moment gameplay that is littered throughout the encounters. On top of that, I could care less for the newer characters and their paper thin story/character arcs in the second half be it with Ellie or even Abby's group. Ultimately, I can't help but feel the same directionless and overbearing nihilistic brutal tone of the story/world that made Alien 3 a hot mess as well. Ultimately, I'm glad I did play it (especially for the low price of $1 via Gamefly) but I don't see myself going back into this one for sure and definitely a game that is worth discount/bargain price if you are curious or a fan of the first game.
It was not the same Joel did not torture and kill the doc in front of Abby. Joel only killed the doc because he cnarged Joel with a knife and Joel had to get Ellie out of the Hospital. It was really not the same.
He held the scalpel up in self defence while pleading with Joel to think about humanity.
The zebra scene is to show how Abby sees her dad. She has a romanticised version of him. The conversation with Marlene, which Abby misses the start of, shows he's not a saint but still is understandable.
I think having something spoiled for you, no matter the medium, is going to drastically dampen your enjoyment. Like, I'm not going to be motivated to read a book, watch a movie or play a game if I know what happens in each chapter/act.
I avoided all leaks for the game, and by the time I finished the story I really enjoyed my time with it. I'd give it a solid 9.0/10
Not really, I knew of the Last of Us 1 story completely before I played it myself and I still heavily enjoyed it.
@@sirnetflix7162 So did I, I watched a walk through. I would of enjoyed it MORE if I hadn't of knew the story.
What Madagascar characters are Joel Ellie and Abby?
Alex, Marty, and Gloria?
If you hate everything, do you hate mars bars? Please reply, thanks
The game show they had argument over it but Owen and Abby chosed to spare them cus they came to Joel and Joel only they didnt care about Ellie or Tommy...they just left them and disappear however they accidentally showed they were from the WLF and i guess it was cus Joel and Tommy came from the storm and Abby's friends were not prepared for Joel to come and Tommy saw their clothes with the symbols of WLF.
They didnt even knew that Ellie getting inside their place and it was all rush for them to do what they wanted to do and go away.
disliked, already watched the whole thing >:(
Why
@@chronenojysk5107 ok furry
fun cow Ok snowflake
@@chronenojysk5107 ok furry
Nice to hear some interesting and sensible thoughts about the good and bad in the game. I didn't agree with all the points but they were fairly made. I loved it so the good obviously outshone the bad for me. The average score of 5 doesn't give any real clue about the game. When you expand the user scores out, virtually no one gives the game a 5. It's nearly a 50/50 split between 8-10 or 0-4 with 8-10 being slightly further ahead.
It's not as bad as they say, no. But it sure as hell isn't as good as they say either! XD
I wish there was more opportunity to use scopes other than the flashback where Tommy teaches Ellie
As good or bad as they say is the best series in this channel
I don't personally think this game's goal was condemning Joel and his choices, just like how I don't think the first game was attempting to justify it.
In Part 1 you see his own perspective which allows you to understand and empathize with his decisions, but whether or not you actually agree with them is entirely up to you.
With Part 2, since it's showing Joel from two different perspectives (both of which are against him and his choices) it makes sense that they wouldn't portray him as a hero nearly as much.
The first game gives you a perspective that allows you to empathize with and understand him, the second game provides two different perspectives that allow you to understand why others wouldn't.
A bit late to the party, but I really don't see this dissonance that they talk about, those moments where Ellie is impacted by killing other people are contextually different than the people she kills in the gameplay, is really clear to me, Nora was the first person she tortured, she doesn't feel a thing about killing Owen and even keeps pushing him to talk, just when she realises that she killed a pregnant women she is bothered by it, I get if you find cheap that Mel is pregnant, but I think that is besides this point, and finally, regarding Abby, they even commented on the fact that she is weak, has been starved, has a child to take care of and just guided her to a escape after sparing her twice, only after having a PTSD flashback Ellie pushes herself to confront her. I feel that if Ellie had killed Abby it would have been really cheap, it would have cemented this story as "just a revenge story" that some people see it. Anyway, I actually enjoyed your discussion, it felt honest despite my disagreements.
Finally, the realm is returning to the normal - the one I need to not go insane. We do need to rebuild but seeing these lads in one room like in the old days is one of the few bits of actual genuine hapiness in months for me.
And the format is just great. Thanks lads
I HATE the political discourse surrounding this game, it essentially boils down to "strong women trans" or "gay couple forced diversity"
And don't forget the other side of the coin saying it's the best game ever because there is a transgender child and a bigot sandwich.