Tier 1 (Best of the Best): -Creatine: Highly effective for muscle growth and strength, assuming you're not a non-responder. -Protein: Effective if you’re not getting enough protein from food (includes whey, casein, egg protein, etc.). Tier 2 (Promising but Conditional): -Beta-Alanine: Can help with endurance activities, particularly in unique situations (e.g., for those doing cardio or team sports, not as useful for powerlifting). -Sodium Bicarbonate: Potentially useful for short-term endurance (e.g., 400-800m races) but with risks like gastrointestinal issues. -Citrulline Malate: Shown to improve strength endurance (helping with more reps). There is evidence of a small effect size. -Dietary Nitrate: Useful for high-velocity muscle actions and power outcomes. -Caffeine: Effective for endurance sports but has a mixed impact on strength training and can cause issues with habituation and sleep, so it's not tier 1 for everyone. Tier 3 (Insufficient Evidence or Mixed Results): Most new supplements start here. Supplements in this tier are those without enough research to confidently support or dismiss their effectiveness. This tier covers the majority of supplements, many of which are in limbo due to insufficient or inconsistent evidence. Tier 4 (No Effect for the Intended Purpose): -Glutamine: Ineffective for muscle growth or performance enhancement, though it may have benefits for gut health or clinical use. -Arginine: Ineffective compared to better alternatives like citrulline. -Creatine Ethyl Ester: Does not leave the gut as creatine and is less effective than creatine monohydrate. -Buffered Creatines (Alkaline Creatines): Show no additional benefit over regular creatine monohydrate. -D-Aspartic Acid: Once thought to boost testosterone, but later research disproved this. -Creatine Hydrochloride: While it still works, it doesn’t live up to its claims of needing a lower dose than creatine monohydrate and is more expensive. Tier 5 (Harmful or Counterproductive): -DMAA (Dimethylamylamine): Found in early pre-workouts like "Jacked 3D." Banned due to safety concerns and linked to severe adverse events like heart issues and deaths. -Ephedrine: Once used as a stimulant but linked to severe adverse health effects, including deaths, and is now banned.
@@proceduralcoffee people who obviously dont have moms dont get to comment on parent made food edit: loser deleted his comment, said "not that youd know what it tastes like"
Protein, creatine, and a cup of coffee on a low energy day. Sounds good and cheap. Lou Ferrigno has the knowledge and put it out there. Pretty simple, tried and true. Just gotta figure out how to make it consistent…
I only use creatine and whey protein. I try to remember to take my vitamin supplements. I'm quitting caffeine. I quit drinking. I try to get a good night's sleep every night. Beyond that, I don't think anything else is necessary, and more than likely, a waste of money.
@@stevem7413 Not the OP but I completely removed caffeine from my diet because it would destroy my ability to sleep. Even a little bit was a problem for me. Of course, everyone responds differently, and I am a diagnosed insomniac to begin with.
Age is very important. For older adults (over 65), many of these tier 2 can have a dramatic impact. My dad is 74 taking Taurine, TMG, HMB, Beta-alaine, which are probably tier 2, but they help his energy, mental health and workouts.
I kept saying Ephedra HAS to be on this tier 5. It was huge for us in the military. When it got banned, everyone was in ruins, lol. Took it while deployed, definitely curbed hunger, and gave energy.
1. Dropped out tier 3 supplements. 2. Won't make a published tier list due to legal liability fears. 3. No discussion of TMG, Curcumin, HMB, DHEA, Boron, CoQ-10, BCAAs, Omega-3.
@@thomascalcott1659 Thank you Thomas! We have some major updates coming in November, including the ability to save pages, organize those saved pages, add notes to any page, and most importantly, we will finally be releasing our Safety Database! To anyone reading this: if you ever have feedback, we're always looking to improve!
Here's a summary of the supplements discussed in the podcast, along with their effects and tiers according to Eric Trexler's system: Creatine Effect: Improves muscle strength and size Tier: 1 (strong evidence, reliable effects) Protein Supplements (e.g., whey, casein) Effect: Supports muscle growth and recovery (if dietary protein is insufficient) Tier: 1 (strong evidence, reliable effects) Citrulline Malate Effect: May improve strength endurance (ability to perform more reps) Tier: 2 (promising evidence, but not as strong as Tier 1) Beta-Alanine Effect: May improve performance in high-intensity activities lasting 1-4 minutes Tier: 2 (promising evidence, but effects may be conditional) Sodium Bicarbonate Effect: May improve performance in high-intensity, short-duration activities Tier: 2 (promising evidence, but potential side effects like gastrointestinal distress) Dietary Nitrate (e.g., beetroot juice) Effect: May improve power output and endurance performance Tier: 2 (promising evidence, particularly for high-velocity muscle actions) Caffeine Effect: Improves alertness, may enhance strength and endurance performance Tier: 2 (effective, but concerns about habituation and sleep interference) Glutamine Effect: No significant benefit for muscle growth or performance (may have clinical applications) Tier: 4 (evidence of no effect for athletic performance) Arginine Effect: Intended to improve blood flow, but largely ineffective Tier: 4 (evidence of no effect, better alternatives available) D-Aspartic Acid Effect: Claimed to boost testosterone, but ineffective Tier: 4 (initial promise, but subsequent studies showed no effect) Creatine Ethyl Ester Effect: Intended to improve creatine absorption, but ineffective Tier: 4 (evidence shows it doesn't convert to creatine in the body) DMAA (Dimethylamylamine) Effect: Powerful stimulant, potentially dangerous Tier: 5 (banned due to safety concerns) Ephedrine Effect: Stimulant and fat burner, potentially dangerous Tier: 5 (banned due to safety concerns) The podcast also mentions that most supplements fall into Tier 3 (insufficient evidence to recommend or discourage use) or Tier 4 (evidence of no effect), with very few reaching Tier 1 or 2. Tier 5 is reserved for supplements that are either harmful or actively impair performance.
One of the best discussions I have heard in years. I’ve used creative for 20 years but other supplements have been a witches brew. Thank you for validating what I have done and help me be better going forward
Dude. My uncle (who was absolutely on gear at the time) hooked me up with some jack3d back in 2011 when I was in high school. I used to take a scoop, play CoD until my body was vibrating then go outside and workout with a 45lb plate for like 2hrs. I’m still chasing that high. I’d blow Dr. Mike for a scoop of OG jack3d
Oh man I remember the good DMAA days. Made me feel super energized so I could workout for 3 hours+ and felt and afterglow when it was finished. A truly magical experience
I was in the Navy and everyone was taking Jack 3d. Military banned it first, but almost all the deaths were attributed to, service members taking more than the recommended dosage.
In my opinion, I think the FDA experts and other groups banned ephedra products in error. For me, the best pre-workout stuff I ever took contained ephedra. Perhaps my metabolism and body processes utilized it better than other things. All I know is that it worked for me and it was a shame when they banned it.
What are your thoughts on peptides? I started BPC157 and TB500 injection after an MCL tear. I felt my return to the mat was sped up but don't feel comfortable telling people that because it's still "research chemical". Thanks
I'd also really like to know. I'm basically at the point where ⚙️ is on the table, and I REEEEEALLY don't want to do it. But I've heard things about peptides and recovery, but nothing on stuff like side effects and other stuff.
Used to watch your channel even when I didn't workout....I've gotten inspired and started my workout journey recently and also started posting my daily progress....Hopefully one day I get fit
as long as whey protein powders aren't spiked from an amino perspective...the riskiest thing is there's no way of knowing for sure without testing each tub in the lab, & sometimes we really need those protein while getting stucked in traffic etc...
I only use and would recommend creatine as a supplement for anyone focusing on muscle growth and strength. I regret using pre-workout (PWO) because it badly affected my sleep, resulting in poor recovery. However, if you take it early in the morning, you should be fine. But since most people train in the afternoon or evening, it's not ideal.
Yup, i absolutelt agree. I tend to stay away from preworkout unless its the weekend and im working out in the morning. If you really need a small boost later in thr day, drink a small cup of coffee.
Ephedrine is tier 1 and 5 imo. The ECA stack or back in the day “ripped fuel” worked better than anything I have ever used that was sold at a supplement shop/store. Still can get Bronkaid/caffeine pills/asprin and it works similarly, maybe not quite as effective and can be a pain to find sometimes.
Layne Norton spoke on it. Mike spoke on it. In summary, the Mechanism of action doesn't exist. It doesn't improve testosterone, ATP, or protein synthesis, so how does it help you build muscle. The second thing is bioavailability through stomach acid. This is why testosterone is injected and not taken orally.
I played sports at a D1 college in the late 90s and early 2000s and it was crazy the amount of "stuff" that we where given in training changed constantly as things got banned but I can tell you pre-workout back then was crazy compared to what is allowed today.
I basically take a multivitamin to rule out any deep deficiencies I may not notice, some magnesium (depending on the multivitamin) for sleep and recovery, vitamin D in cold seasons and collagen powder because I feel less clunky in my joint when I take it and my nails / hair grows like crazy, anything else than that feels overkill for someone who's not a pro
Glad you mentioned the vitamin D issue. This is especially important for heat-adapted humans who hit a wall in the cold (mostly Latino or Asian people), like I'm Puerto Rican I thrive in 100+ degrees but once the weather dips below 50 I feel like trash 😂
@@thetieguy4961 yeah I was looking at supplementing collagen, someone made the suggestion we dont eat as much connective tissues etc these days... I thought it sounded good, then looked into what it actually was and found it basically breaks down into three aminos that I already regularly supplement. I was pleased not to need to add another plastic container to the already crowded supplement shelf.
@@thetieguy4961 Yes, from a theoretical point of view, collagen splits into molecules, but since it is known to work in practice, the fact that it splits and the chemical reaction is not so important.
I remember being able to buy pure DMAA powder from a supplier in Australia back in the day. I used to buy 50g bags of the stuff... until the government caught on that it was too good 😆
I am mainly looking for focus rather than energy. So currently i am looking into thinks like noopept/alpha gpc, etc on that side, that would enhance my focus ability and mind muscle connection. Wonder how dmaa works
Well its considered completly useless, if you intake enough Protein, therefore could be considered a nothing tier, since its just worse to take, than Protein pretty much 90+% of the time.
I use protein powder, Optimum creatine and caffeine. If I could afford it I would buy electrolytes and an hydration supplement, but I don't think they're necessary. Edit: This talk was great. Really interesting.
How can you not afford electrolytes? It's 3 ingredients you can buy in bulk and mix yourself for pennies per serving. LMNT has their mixture on their site to make your own.
Buy Morton lite salt. It has the same electrolytes as the fancy powders. In fact, Doctors Without Borders uses it with frozen orange juice to make electrolyte drinks for kids with dysentery.
TLDR, I've come to save you guys: Tier 1 (02:14): The best supplements backed by strong evidence include creatine (for those who respond) and protein (for those lacking dietary intake). Tier 2 (03:44): Promising supplements like beta-alanine, sodium and dietary nitrate, showing some positive results but with limitations or specific use cases. Tier 3 (12:05): Supplements with inconsistent or marginal results, such as caffeine, which has mixed effects on performance and withdrawal. Tier 4 (17:21): Supplements proven ineffective for specific outcomes, like glutamine for muscle growth and arginine for endurance. Tier 5 (21:30): Dangerous supplements that could harm users or negatively impact performance, such as certain pre-workouts and stimulants that were banned after causing health issues.
I remember a review of Redline RTD when it first released (label didn't specify to drink portions)..the reviewer specifically stated that it was like a happy mix of hypothermia and a meth drug overdose. It seemed pretty accurate based on the effect felt after slamming a full bottle down before the gym. Ahhh those days of the OG pre's in 90's when we could make the treadmills smoke and flash "Tilt" like a pinball machine, while 1 arm pressing 225 on a barbell and doing 150lb curls with the other arm...all while bleeding from our foreheads from quadruple digit blood pressure levels. 😂
Best carb loading meal for pump: pasta with garlic salt and butter. Pumps are insane. I don't really get why it works so particularly well compared to other salty carbs, but it does.
Many companies take advantage of the placebo effect. Some people argue that if it works, then what's the problem? My response is that it is a problem if they charge you an exorbitant price for something that only works if you "believe" it works.
IMO, I think that Eric's tier list should include health supplements. Even though they don't directly benefit performance, staying healthier will mean that you will perform better in the long run. My tier 1: creatine, taurine, allicin.
Another problem I’m getting with caffeine is appetite. It’s noticeably harder to get food down when I’m trying to get 4-4500 calories in vs when I started and was just trying to get 2500 in
@@ceoofwhiteprivilege2238or you dont messure it correctly(you definitivly make some mistake, if your average burn is like 3k and you eat 2,5k, you would lose weight, there isnt like 500cals that go nowhere, if i had to guess you either dont measure it correctly or eat alot diffrently on different days and dont include that(easy to under or overestimate cals)
Some companies like Maximus and Blokes are recommending enclomiphene as a “TRT alternative” to boost test/performance. I know it’s not a dietary supp, but a video on this would be super interesting.
@@lukeydukey20 I cold turkeyed a pretty brutal caffiene addiction a few years ago, it wasn't that bad tbh, just a kind of shitty headache for like 5-7 days, then a cup of coffee was like drinking rocket fuel a few months later.
@@LukeFen I’ve sort of tried in the past. I just need to find the right time to stick it out. Recently changed careers, so I’m trying not to let performance drop at all for awhile.
@@lukeydukey20 Drink decaf on the weekends. It will bring down your tolerance quite a bit if you stick with it for 48 hours every week, and you still get most of the health benefits. If you keep this up, after a few weeks you can lower your caffeine on weekdays too without withdrawal.
Oh man. I remember those high school days. When I found out I was literally on Meth taking my Pre-workout, it made sense. Immediately dropped that stuff, but what a story I can tell today. That whole era was WILD, and short lived.
One interesting thing about Beta-Alanine is the placebo effect. Loads of people are swearing on it, because the tingles get them hyped up for heavy sets. So while scientifically not having any effect in a pre-workout whatsoever, it is pretty good to motivate people I guess
By far the strongest muscle building agent we can legally purchase and use (but not beat a banned substance test with) is trestolone acetate. And it’s not even close. “But that’s not a supplement!” 😭 Supplement is just a marketing term. No more. No less. Well, maybe a little less sometimes. Even the rules of what’s defined as supplements are arbitrary. One of which is, It must be orally ingested. So a vitamin B pill is a supplement but a vitamin B aqueous solution for injection magically isn’t?
I've seen recent studies that say have argine and citrulline together is better than individually. You don't need full doses either. Works well for me!
My secret morning recipe: two cups of iced black coffee in the blender. Add 5mg of creatine and your protein powder of choice. The product I use is a two scoop dosage, so I use one scoop of salted caramel and one scoop of cookies and cream. I sip on it while making and eating my omelet. It is better than any Starbucks Frappuccino. You're welcome.
Can verify the early 2000-2010s supplements. We had a member of our unit have a heart attack after drinking several Red Line energy drinks. Far over the recommended dose, and fortunately, he survived, but those were different times.
Surprising that Citrulline Malate was the tier 2 rather than L Citrulline being tier 2 with Malic Acid being the tier 3 add on. The literature seems like Malic Acid may provide a small but inconsistent synergistic effect to L Citrulline, and the only negative influence is in the wallet or in underdosing of L Citrulline in preworkouts due to the addition of Malic Acid. As well, kind of amazed to have this tier list and then... not have an actual list or enough major examples. This was a long video to mostly explain a categorization method. It's good, and there is plenty of early general knowledge, but there are a ton of supplements which could've been rattled off for the general viewer to know what to consider or avoid.
Current stack as 40 year old dad with a 9-5 office job who does Muay Thai, BJJ, lifts kettlebells, does Calisthenics and runs. Whey - mix it with food like 0%fat Greek yogurt, or use as a meal replacement when I’ve not hit protein goal but don’t have many calories left to stay in a deficit. Clear whey - just for convenience Creatine - no brainer L-Citruline - mix this in my clear whey with Creatine. I don’t do preworkout but like taking this for a small pump. Turkesterone TongKat Ali Faddigo agrestis Out of the last 3 I feel Tong Kat Ali had greatest effect on testosterone and libido(Cistanche is the only libido supplement I had to stop taking because it worked too well 😉 ) Turkesterone I wasn’t convinced at first didn’t instantly get stronger. But kept taking for the past year, managed to go from double 24KG kettlebell program to running same program with double 32KG bells. Struggled at first but got it done. Packed on about 5lbs of muscle lost 15lbs of fat. Faddigo agrestis I’ve been taking all 3 on and off for a year. One point only taking Tong Kat on it’s on or with one of the other. I felt the best with all 3 and making the most progress in years so don’t want to change too much. I’m 5ft 10” currently about 187 lbs at 17% bodyfat. Goal was to get to 175lbs at 10% Maybe cut to 165lbs to compete. But may stay around 180-185 at 12-15% BF as I feel and perform better between those. Any way that’s what I’m currently doing and is working well. Also I take the usual vitamins D, K2, fish oil, magnesium, zinc. Other things I added for health boron, qucertine and NAC. Since I started taking the last two I haven’t gotten sick when my kids or wife have been sick and I’m usually the first to get sick from the kids or over training.
For you somr kind of in trsining Dextrose midwork out ( especially taiboxing) would probably have a great effect on energylevels. Turk does nothing in humans unfortunatly
@@thor498 you may be right. I’ve been focused on fat loss for so long neglecting protein intake. So it might just be now I’m hitting the target while staying in a deficit that’s what made the difference. But I’m hesitant to change anything until I hit my goal. I was 247lbs at my fattest.
Spoiler alert: they don’t review Tren 😔
Press F to pay respect 😢😢😢
@@TurdBoi666F
@Iron.Historian is undefeated at fire comments
Tren is not supplement , it's litteraly anabolic steroid
Saved me 33 mins 🫡
Tier 1 (Best of the Best):
-Creatine: Highly effective for muscle growth and strength, assuming you're not a non-responder.
-Protein: Effective if you’re not getting enough protein from food (includes whey, casein, egg protein, etc.).
Tier 2 (Promising but Conditional):
-Beta-Alanine: Can help with endurance activities, particularly in unique situations (e.g., for those doing cardio or team sports, not as useful for powerlifting).
-Sodium Bicarbonate: Potentially useful for short-term endurance (e.g., 400-800m races) but with risks like gastrointestinal issues.
-Citrulline Malate: Shown to improve strength endurance (helping with more reps). There is evidence of a small effect size.
-Dietary Nitrate: Useful for high-velocity muscle actions and power outcomes.
-Caffeine: Effective for endurance sports but has a mixed impact on strength training and can cause issues with habituation and sleep, so it's not tier 1 for everyone.
Tier 3 (Insufficient Evidence or Mixed Results):
Most new supplements start here. Supplements in this tier are those without enough research to confidently support or dismiss their effectiveness. This tier covers the majority of supplements, many of which are in limbo due to insufficient or inconsistent evidence.
Tier 4 (No Effect for the Intended Purpose):
-Glutamine: Ineffective for muscle growth or performance enhancement, though it may have benefits for gut health or clinical use.
-Arginine: Ineffective compared to better alternatives like citrulline.
-Creatine Ethyl Ester: Does not leave the gut as creatine and is less effective than creatine monohydrate.
-Buffered Creatines (Alkaline Creatines): Show no additional benefit over regular creatine monohydrate.
-D-Aspartic Acid: Once thought to boost testosterone, but later research disproved this.
-Creatine Hydrochloride: While it still works, it doesn’t live up to its claims of needing a lower dose than creatine monohydrate and is more expensive.
Tier 5 (Harmful or Counterproductive):
-DMAA (Dimethylamylamine): Found in early pre-workouts like "Jacked 3D." Banned due to safety concerns and linked to severe adverse events like heart issues and deaths.
-Ephedrine: Once used as a stimulant but linked to severe adverse health effects, including deaths, and is now banned.
Example supplements (not advocating a particular brand, nor claiming those not listed are not worthy, just examples here)
Tier 1 (Best of the Best):
Creatine:
Optimum Nutrition Micronized Creatine Monohydrate
MuscleTech Platinum Creatine
BulkSupplements Creatine Monohydrate
Protein (Whey, Casein, Egg Protein, etc.):
Optimum Nutrition Gold Standard Whey
Dymatize ISO100 Hydrolyzed Whey Protein
MusclePharm Combat Protein Powder
Tier 2 (Promising but Conditional):
Beta-Alanine:
NOW Sports Beta-Alanine Powder
BulkSupplements Beta-Alanine
Sodium Bicarbonate:
Nutricost Sodium Bicarbonate Capsules
BulkSupplements Sodium Bicarbonate Powder
Citrulline Malate:
BulkSupplements Citrulline Malate Powder
Transparent Labs RawSeries Citrulline Malate
Kaged Muscle Citrulline
Dietary Nitrate:
BeetElite (Beetroot extract)
Humann SuperBeets
Caffeine:
ProLab Caffeine Tablets
Kaged Muscle Caffeine Pills
Legion Pulse Pre-Workout (contains caffeine)
Tier 3 (Insufficient Evidence or Mixed Results):
HMB (β-Hydroxy β-Methylbutyrate):
Optimum Nutrition HMB
BulkSupplements HMB Powder
Tribulus Terrestris:
GNC Herbal Plus Tribulus
NOW Sports Tribulus
CLA (Conjugated Linoleic Acid):
Sports Research CLA 1250
NatureWise CLA 1250
Tier 4 (No Effect for the Intended Purpose):
Glutamine:
Optimum Nutrition Glutamine
BSN Glutamine DNA
MuscleTech Platinum 100% Glutamine
Arginine:
NOW Sports L-Arginine
Doctor's Best L-Arginine
Creatine Ethyl Ester:
Cellucor Creatine Ethyl Ester
Con-Cret Creatine HCl (though still available, less popular than creatine monohydrate)
Buffered Creatines (Alkaline Creatines):
Kre-Alkalyn EFX
Swanson Ultra Buffered Creatine
D-Aspartic Acid:
Primaforce D-Aspartic Acid
BulkSupplements D-Aspartic Acid
Tier 5 (Harmful or Counterproductive):
DMAA (Banned):
Jacked 3D (Original Formula)
OxyELITE Pro (Original Formula)
Ephedrine (Banned):
Original Xenadrine RFA-1
Hydroxycut (old formulas)
Ur the goat
Whoa whoa whoa. Spoiler alert!
someone pin this hahaha
Thank you SIR 🎉
Lunchables is the only muscle growth supplement I take.
And flintstones gummies
*lunchly.. oh wait it fucking sucks
Lunchly
@@ZenTheMCHulkamania Brother!!
Not trolling, 'Clear Muscle' seriously worked for me. 4 weeks after a 6 week cycle, (after water weight) i put on 8lbs lean muscle
Mom's meals are tier 1+
@@proceduralcoffee people who obviously dont have moms dont get to comment on parent made food
edit: loser deleted his comment, said "not that youd know what it tastes like"
@@proceduralcoffeeis it empowering to talk down to people when there is no risk to self?
People acting like this wasn't just some hilarious jesting @@proceduralcoffee
Italian grandma food though
@@proceduralcoffee You're living up to your name, I see.
dude we want to physically see the tier list with our eyes
Then he wouldn't be able to waffle for half a hour
@@Barry-lh6co people having a conversation is waffling?
@@ORiOh4582 Without a visual of each supplement, yes.
@@ORiOh4582 😈
Not having tier list means you can’t skip to the end
Protein, creatine, and a cup of coffee on a low energy day. Sounds good and cheap. Lou Ferrigno has the knowledge and put it out there. Pretty simple, tried and true. Just gotta figure out how to make it consistent…
Absolutely this
Coffee and creatine....try again
@@fenzterpenzter3701 haha, good try
Try butter in your black coffee. You will be awake all day. Without the butter, I needed 4-5 cups of coffee. With butter I drink 1 cup and I’m good
@@MrDan3808 Diuretics like Caffeine affect Creatine absorption doesn't it?
Greg Doceutte is foaming at the mouth. How dare they?? Have they tried my supplements? Have they? - greg
he has a wierd last name
Greg’s turkey stones are S-tier!
10x BETTER THAN CREATINE!!!!!1111OneOneOne
I read that in Greg’s screaming high pitched voice….
They need all these supplements because they don't have his friggin cookbook
I only use creatine and whey protein. I try to remember to take my vitamin supplements. I'm quitting caffeine. I quit drinking. I try to get a good night's sleep every night. Beyond that, I don't think anything else is necessary, and more than likely, a waste of money.
Pretty much the same here. But why are you quitting caffeine? Just curious...
@@stevem7413 Not the OP but I completely removed caffeine from my diet because it would destroy my ability to sleep. Even a little bit was a problem for me. Of course, everyone responds differently, and I am a diagnosed insomniac to begin with.
Oh man I quit drinking and started getting better sleep and my skin started to look so good
@@stevem7413 I quit drinking caffeine after 1 PM. It really made a difference for my sleep health.
Cutting drinking is bigger effect than using any legal supplements could be
Age is very important. For older adults (over 65), many of these tier 2 can have a dramatic impact. My dad is 74 taking Taurine, TMG, HMB, Beta-alaine, which are probably tier 2, but they help his energy, mental health and workouts.
I'm 46 using Taurine and HMB and I do believe they are helping.
I'm 34 and mixing redbulls with meth and I'm pretty sure it's having an effect, even if only a placebo
@@DarkCheezus me too! I get a really nice warm up removing all the plumbing in my house before I head to the gym.
I appreciate the frankness of these discussions.
Frank's hot dogs are also an acceptable pre workout
I remember the old formula Jack 3d pre-workout back in the 2000's. That was insane.
Gotta love that DMAA!
Back when you could buy Meth over the counter.
Get some Zion Labs T-6 and 1 scoop of low caffeine pre workout and you have the same.
I was in the service and everyone was taking it. The base gym looked like a room full of roided out meth heads
Loved that stuff. Couldn't pay me to take it now though. I like falling asleep at some point before the sun comes up lmao.
I kept saying Ephedra HAS to be on this tier 5. It was huge for us in the military. When it got banned, everyone was in ruins, lol. Took it while deployed, definitely curbed hunger, and gave energy.
I heard legends about guys slamming Stacker 2 before going door-to-door in Iraq.
All the people in med school used to take ephedra.
I remember when hydroxycut first came out my battle buddies and I tried it and it was ridiculous off the wall we were 😮😮😮
I still buy Bronkaid every month from CVS and stack it with caffeine. Best pre/appetite suppressant.
That stuff was magic
1. Dropped out tier 3 supplements. 2. Won't make a published tier list due to legal liability fears. 3. No discussion of TMG, Curcumin, HMB, DHEA, Boron, CoQ-10, BCAAs, Omega-3.
thank you
BCAAs are basicaly Tier nothing since they dont do anything if you get enough Protein anyway
Thanks for the kind words y'all 🙏🏾
So happy your team got mentioned, I use examine all the time and Im a huge fan of your work
@@thomascalcott1659 Thank you Thomas! We have some major updates coming in November, including the ability to save pages, organize those saved pages, add notes to any page, and most importantly, we will finally be releasing our Safety Database!
To anyone reading this: if you ever have feedback, we're always looking to improve!
I can't believe y'all turned down the $1 billion offer. Cheap skates!
Coffee my personal S Tier. Helps me poop and you never want to do a full rom leg day constipated
Better to go before rather than during
S tier point
But heavy squats can also help you poop?
I exclusively do legs while constipated.
I do. Best feeling ever.
Here's a summary of the supplements discussed in the podcast, along with their effects and tiers according to Eric Trexler's system:
Creatine
Effect: Improves muscle strength and size
Tier: 1 (strong evidence, reliable effects)
Protein Supplements (e.g., whey, casein)
Effect: Supports muscle growth and recovery (if dietary protein is insufficient)
Tier: 1 (strong evidence, reliable effects)
Citrulline Malate
Effect: May improve strength endurance (ability to perform more reps)
Tier: 2 (promising evidence, but not as strong as Tier 1)
Beta-Alanine
Effect: May improve performance in high-intensity activities lasting 1-4 minutes
Tier: 2 (promising evidence, but effects may be conditional)
Sodium Bicarbonate
Effect: May improve performance in high-intensity, short-duration activities
Tier: 2 (promising evidence, but potential side effects like gastrointestinal distress)
Dietary Nitrate (e.g., beetroot juice)
Effect: May improve power output and endurance performance
Tier: 2 (promising evidence, particularly for high-velocity muscle actions)
Caffeine
Effect: Improves alertness, may enhance strength and endurance performance
Tier: 2 (effective, but concerns about habituation and sleep interference)
Glutamine
Effect: No significant benefit for muscle growth or performance (may have clinical applications)
Tier: 4 (evidence of no effect for athletic performance)
Arginine
Effect: Intended to improve blood flow, but largely ineffective
Tier: 4 (evidence of no effect, better alternatives available)
D-Aspartic Acid
Effect: Claimed to boost testosterone, but ineffective
Tier: 4 (initial promise, but subsequent studies showed no effect)
Creatine Ethyl Ester
Effect: Intended to improve creatine absorption, but ineffective
Tier: 4 (evidence shows it doesn't convert to creatine in the body)
DMAA (Dimethylamylamine)
Effect: Powerful stimulant, potentially dangerous
Tier: 5 (banned due to safety concerns)
Ephedrine
Effect: Stimulant and fat burner, potentially dangerous
Tier: 5 (banned due to safety concerns)
The podcast also mentions that most supplements fall into Tier 3 (insufficient evidence to recommend or discourage use) or Tier 4 (evidence of no effect), with very few reaching Tier 1 or 2. Tier 5 is reserved for supplements that are either harmful or actively impair performance.
Definitely, looking forward to the full 3hr ep.
One of the best discussions I have heard in years. I’ve used creative for 20 years but other supplements have been a witches brew. Thank you for validating what I have done and help me be better going forward
Full Rom Shirts are backkk
Eyy
How do I buy a FullRom cut? Can't find anything on the website.
Eric Trex! 💪 Great to see Eric on here props to RP for getting fantastic guests! 🚀
Loving the content 👌
Dude. My uncle (who was absolutely on gear at the time) hooked me up with some jack3d back in 2011 when I was in high school. I used to take a scoop, play CoD until my body was vibrating then go outside and workout with a 45lb plate for like 2hrs. I’m still chasing that high. I’d blow Dr. Mike for a scoop of OG jack3d
Hahaha , that stuff was the best. Such a shame they realised it was pretty much like taking meth
I mean, let's be honest here you:d blow Dr Mike regardless if he had that scoop or not
Oh man I remember the good DMAA days. Made me feel super energized so I could workout for 3 hours+ and felt and afterglow when it was finished. A truly magical experience
I was in the Navy and everyone was taking Jack 3d. Military banned it first, but almost all the deaths were attributed to, service members taking more than the recommended dosage.
I was in afghan in 2011 and we were taking it
@@Sparks00psn we were all taking it and the base gym was full of roided out meth heads
Everything has a LD50 even water. Roided out meth heads? Man that would be tough eating a ton while taking meth while making gains.
@@User-54631 I didn't mean it literally. I mean some were on roids. But the jack 3d felt like a meth.
Ditto
Ahhhh I remember the good old days. Superpump 250, OG N.O. Xplode, OG T.bomb, jack3d. M1bol and 17bol. I used to be like a mad scientist in the gym.
I like the Examine name drop. It condenses the literature for laymen (or the lazy) instead of reading 20+ page PubMed publications.
🫡
@@examinecom I remember when you first started on Reddit and the website was free. Greedy bastard
Einstein said if you can’t explain something simply you don’t understand it.
In my opinion, I think the FDA experts and other groups banned ephedra products in error. For me, the best pre-workout stuff I ever took contained ephedra. Perhaps my metabolism and body processes utilized it better than other things. All I know is that it worked for me and it was a shame when they banned it.
If you’re old enough to remember Ultimate Orange. Please like.
I miss that sh-t
I don’t know if it’s the lighting or what, but Mike lowkey taking my breath away in this video. He looks so good.
What are your thoughts on peptides? I started BPC157 and TB500 injection after an MCL tear. I felt my return to the mat was sped up but don't feel comfortable telling people that because it's still "research chemical".
Thanks
I'd also really like to know. I'm basically at the point where ⚙️ is on the table, and I REEEEEALLY don't want to do it. But I've heard things about peptides and recovery, but nothing on stuff like side effects and other stuff.
They are hormon like substances we don't realknow what they do long term but they will Revolutionise training in the future when we do know
@@taylorhillard4868peptides are gear. Less studyied new gear.
They do work but we don't know what they do longterm
all a scam dont buy. just use creatine fool.
Great to see Dr. Eric Trexler on the channel. 🙌
Thank you Dr. Mike for promoting rational thinking in lifting and not bullshit bro sorcery
Used to watch your channel even when I didn't workout....I've gotten inspired and started my workout journey recently and also started posting my daily progress....Hopefully one day I get fit
That original N.O. Explode recipe hit different!
as long as whey protein powders aren't spiked from an amino perspective...the riskiest thing is there's no way of knowing for sure without testing each tub in the lab, & sometimes we really need those protein while getting stucked in traffic etc...
I only use and would recommend creatine as a supplement for anyone focusing on muscle growth and strength. I regret using pre-workout (PWO) because it badly affected my sleep, resulting in poor recovery. However, if you take it early in the morning, you should be fine. But since most people train in the afternoon or evening, it's not ideal.
Yup, i absolutelt agree. I tend to stay away from preworkout unless its the weekend and im working out in the morning. If you really need a small boost later in thr day, drink a small cup of coffee.
100% real
Only matters if you have low caffeine tolerance, people who use caffeine dosages in pre like they’re one size fit all are asking for low performance.
I just take caffeine free pre workout
Brew a pot of coffee and drink it pre and intra workout
Ephedrine is tier 1 and 5 imo. The ECA stack or back in the day “ripped fuel” worked better than anything I have ever used that was sold at a supplement shop/store. Still can get Bronkaid/caffeine pills/asprin and it works similarly, maybe not quite as effective and can be a pain to find sometimes.
I was lowkey waiting to hear about turkesterone
Dr. Mike has talked about it before, he has 0 Faith in turk.
@@Sean-ce4zu just go listen to Greg Doucette instead 😅
As someone who lives in Canada in Halifax (Greg lives there) i wanted to see if shots was getting fired. It be too funny to see
Layne Norton spoke on it. Mike spoke on it. In summary, the Mechanism of action doesn't exist. It doesn't improve testosterone, ATP, or protein synthesis, so how does it help you build muscle. The second thing is bioavailability through stomach acid. This is why testosterone is injected and not taken orally.
@@Sean-ce4zu can u send link?
Can’t go wrong when Trexler's on! Great stuff!
I usually bite my soap before going to the gym, sometimes 2 bites if it is leg day
Dude... the 2011 and 2012 preworkouts were insane... me and my buddies still talk about the good old times.
I'm natural and not into supplements yet listening to this is extremely entertaining.
Damn. Arginine, glutamine and buffered creatine (kre-alkalyn) in tier 4 surprised me.
For muscle building. For other subjects could move to tier 2. All depends why it's being used
Buffered creatine is one of the biggest scams in supplements 😂
This is a really good interview. Good stuff
I played sports at a D1 college in the late 90s and early 2000s and it was crazy the amount of "stuff" that we where given in training changed constantly as things got banned but I can tell you pre-workout back then was crazy compared to what is allowed today.
I basically take a multivitamin to rule out any deep deficiencies I may not notice, some magnesium (depending on the multivitamin) for sleep and recovery, vitamin D in cold seasons and collagen powder because I feel less clunky in my joint when I take it and my nails / hair grows like crazy, anything else than that feels overkill for someone who's not a pro
Glad you mentioned the vitamin D issue. This is especially important for heat-adapted humans who hit a wall in the cold (mostly Latino or Asian people), like I'm Puerto Rican I thrive in 100+ degrees but once the weather dips below 50 I feel like trash 😂
The collagen doesn't work that way. you body litteraly deconstruct the molecule into amino acids when you digest it
@@thetieguy4961 yeah I was looking at supplementing collagen, someone made the suggestion we dont eat as much connective tissues etc these days...
I thought it sounded good, then looked into what it actually was and found it basically breaks down into three aminos that I already regularly supplement.
I was pleased not to need to add another plastic container to the already crowded supplement shelf.
Plus omega three and potentially iron
@@thetieguy4961 Yes, from a theoretical point of view, collagen splits into molecules, but since it is known to work in practice, the fact that it splits and the chemical reaction is not so important.
last night I bought a tier 5 supplement. that's how much I believe in my grind / hustle
Protein and Creatine. Saved you 33:31 minutes
I love this two together. More, please!
Oh how I miss Jack3D! DMAA!!!!!
you would literally get stronger the longer your workout lasted. shit was unreal.
Best workout of my life until fireworks shot out of my ass
I remember being able to buy pure DMAA powder from a supplier in Australia back in the day. I used to buy 50g bags of the stuff... until the government caught on that it was too good 😆
Is dmaa good as a preworkout? What would the dosage be?
I am mainly looking for focus rather than energy. So currently i am looking into thinks like noopept/alpha gpc, etc on that side, that would enhance my focus ability and mind muscle connection. Wonder how dmaa works
great informational video. love your sense of humor mike :D
Anyone remember original formula 'Ultimate Orange??' Had juice in it! ✨
Ultimate Orange will make you fail a drug test faster than the last time.
Yup that was insane. Anyone remember Hot Stuff?
oh yeah, never plateau.
Mike was in such a happy giggly mood. Love it
Didn’t address BCAA’s, was keen to hear his opinion
Well its considered completly useless, if you intake enough Protein, therefore could be considered a nothing tier, since its just worse to take, than Protein pretty much 90+% of the time.
Honestly a good protein/creatine has the bcaas most of us need. Ive dropped taking them due to above. Happy lifting.
Do professionals even acknowledge them at this point? Figured everyone was on the same page that they’re a pointless waste of money.
"Tiers of joy"! Dr Mike is the gift that keeps on giving... puns, and not only!
Can we get a tier list of companies (reputable vs bs)?
This is a good one, but they may not be able to poke the bear because of legal reasons
We need a RP Supplement app
I use protein powder, Optimum creatine and caffeine. If I could afford it I would buy electrolytes and an hydration supplement, but I don't think they're necessary.
Edit: This talk was great. Really interesting.
I usw electrolyte powder and it actually makes a big difference in EnergyLevels throu the day. 500g is like 15$
How can you not afford electrolytes? It's 3 ingredients you can buy in bulk and mix yourself for pennies per serving. LMNT has their mixture on their site to make your own.
I also use optimum protein, optimum creatine, and LMNT for during workout hydration. Id you get some extra coin, LMNT is the way to go.
Buy Morton lite salt. It has the same electrolytes as the fancy powders. In fact, Doctors Without Borders uses it with frozen orange juice to make electrolyte drinks for kids with dysentery.
You are such a badass DR Mike!! Thanks my dude!!
That’s cool, but what makes your head grow like that?
HGH or IGF-1
That’s the growth hormone supplement.
Gh haha
Holding your breath while straining
I love how we've got one guy in a polo and a sweater, the other guy in a tank top
Is there RP merch?? And where can I get em??😂
Hell yeah, I want the FullRom cut.
TLDR, I've come to save you guys:
Tier 1 (02:14): The best supplements backed by strong evidence include creatine (for those who respond) and protein (for those lacking dietary intake).
Tier 2 (03:44): Promising supplements like beta-alanine, sodium and dietary nitrate, showing some positive results but with limitations or specific use cases.
Tier 3 (12:05): Supplements with inconsistent or marginal results, such as caffeine, which has mixed effects on performance and withdrawal.
Tier 4 (17:21): Supplements proven ineffective for specific outcomes, like glutamine for muscle growth and arginine for endurance.
Tier 5 (21:30): Dangerous supplements that could harm users or negatively impact performance, such as certain pre-workouts and stimulants that were banned after causing health issues.
For every piece of advice he offers, there's the opposite advice from his evil, long-haired twin Dr. Mike Isn'traetel
I had a stroke trying to pronounce that evil twins name. Reads fine but saying out loud is anarchy 😂
Hes got a goatee too
@@TannerWombat Now I had a stroke too, I typed silently...
@@HardHardMaster omg yes
I remember a review of Redline RTD when it first released (label didn't specify to drink portions)..the reviewer specifically stated that it was like a happy mix of hypothermia and a meth drug overdose. It seemed pretty accurate based on the effect felt after slamming a full bottle down before the gym. Ahhh those days of the OG pre's in 90's when we could make the treadmills smoke and flash "Tilt" like a pinball machine, while 1 arm pressing 225 on a barbell and doing 150lb curls with the other arm...all while bleeding from our foreheads from quadruple digit blood pressure levels. 😂
Damn, Nick Mullen got jacked and smart wtf
Love to see Dr.Mike laughing so much. 🤭😁 thank you for the episode!
So tier 5 is basically tier 1..
whey isolate, creatine monohydrate, d3-k2, zink, magnesium bisglycinate, gatorade and citruline malate
This mood in this vid is perfect!
Best carb loading meal for pump: pasta with garlic salt and butter. Pumps are insane. I don't really get why it works so particularly well compared to other salty carbs, but it does.
Greg doucette video dropping harder than last time
Great content, gents!
let me guess before watching the video what over the counter supplements will rank in this order 1. whey protein 2. a daily multi-vitamin 3. creatine.
Who recommends a daily multivitamin other than multivutamin scammers?
Nope. Maybe watch the video.
Ultimate Orange back in the 90's was probably the first pre-workout supplement. That stuff was awesome and of course taken off the market.
Mike should asked what tier Greg's turk supp was at. Tier 3 or 4. Take a shot at Greg Mike. Lol I'm Canadian in Halifax so I'm allowed to say this 😅😂
Turkestorne is tier4 their is no evidence thst it works at all in humans
@@thor498 ik just wanted to hear Mike roast Greg
@@alphawolfsrs3802the wolf doesn't waste time with the opinions of sheep
@@blackenedsprite8542 I'm not, I'm would say I'm just curious about the mentality of these two people and how they interact with one another
Beta Alanin, do not underestimate the placebo effect!
Many companies take advantage of the placebo effect. Some people argue that if it works, then what's the problem? My response is that it is a problem if they charge you an exorbitant price for something that only works if you "believe" it works.
@@AlexWayneTVor it works compared to placebo, which tricks people somehow. It works compared to literally nothing, cool 😎
IMO, I think that Eric's tier list should include health supplements. Even though they don't directly benefit performance, staying healthier will mean that you will perform better in the long run.
My tier 1: creatine, taurine, allicin.
Another problem I’m getting with caffeine is appetite. It’s noticeably harder to get food down when I’m trying to get 4-4500 calories in vs when I started and was just trying to get 2500 in
Caffeine IS an appetite suppressant. I believe Mike mentions it in his dieting videos at some point.
@@ETEcco yeah it’s a good one for most people and works great when you’re in a deficit. On a surplus it can sneak up on ya
Why would you want that many calories when the open Olympian champion bulks on 3,500k calories?
@@actualanimals The current Mr Olympia? I do that because my mass doesn’t increase with less calories, just thermogenics I guess
@@ceoofwhiteprivilege2238or you dont messure it correctly(you definitivly make some mistake, if your average burn is like 3k and you eat 2,5k, you would lose weight, there isnt like 500cals that go nowhere, if i had to guess you either dont measure it correctly or eat alot diffrently on different days and dont include that(easy to under or overestimate cals)
Some companies like Maximus and Blokes are recommending enclomiphene as a “TRT alternative” to boost test/performance. I know it’s not a dietary supp, but a video on this would be super interesting.
multi vitamins, omega 3 etc? those are not supplements?
I'm sure most of us don't use vitality supplements for muscle growth
Those are definitely supplements but more on the general health spectrum.
Multivitamin is as the name suggests too general to give any tier placement on. It would need to be vitamin by vitamin
This is the happiest i've seen mike isratel in a video
Caffeine is necessary for me to function. It is no longer a supplemental tool, but a way to keep the shakes from taking over.
that sounds like addiction
@@swedneck I don’t have a problem… you have a problem. (Scratches skin aggressively)
@@lukeydukey20 I cold turkeyed a pretty brutal caffiene addiction a few years ago, it wasn't that bad tbh, just a kind of shitty headache for like 5-7 days, then a cup of coffee was like drinking rocket fuel a few months later.
@@LukeFen I’ve sort of tried in the past. I just need to find the right time to stick it out. Recently changed careers, so I’m trying not to let performance drop at all for awhile.
@@lukeydukey20
Drink decaf on the weekends. It will bring down your tolerance quite a bit if you stick with it for 48 hours every week, and you still get most of the health benefits.
If you keep this up, after a few weeks you can lower your caffeine on weekdays too without withdrawal.
Oh man. I remember those high school days. When I found out I was literally on Meth taking my Pre-workout, it made sense. Immediately dropped that stuff, but what a story I can tell today. That whole era was WILD, and short lived.
1:20 amazing 😂
Ashwagandha. Thoughts?
ruclips.net/video/f181olRhQeY/видео.htmlsi=TJ3b3t-SkEWU3UV4
Discussion here
ruclips.net/video/f181olRhQeY/видео.htmlsi=TJ3b3t-SkEWU3UV4
Discussed here
Person experience it gave me anhedonia. Google it. People sing its praises but there is a risk in some people.
Mid 90’s Ephedrine, aspirin, and Vivian. Great workouts . The feeling was “ hey my fingers are to close together.
Vivian?
First?
Looks like it.
One interesting thing about Beta-Alanine is the placebo effect. Loads of people are swearing on it, because the tingles get them hyped up for heavy sets. So while scientifically not having any effect in a pre-workout whatsoever, it is pretty good to motivate people I guess
By far the strongest muscle building agent we can legally purchase and use (but not beat a banned substance test with) is trestolone acetate. And it’s not even close. “But that’s not a supplement!” 😭 Supplement is just a marketing term. No more. No less. Well, maybe a little less sometimes. Even the rules of what’s defined as supplements are arbitrary. One of which is, It must be orally ingested. So a vitamin B pill is a supplement but a vitamin B aqueous solution for injection magically isn’t?
Imagine doing all this and not just properly hopping on gear lmao
Where should we buy supplements? Vitamins?
Dr Mike was on fire!
Examine actually does have those guides in similar tiers but they're a paid benefit
I've seen recent studies that say have argine and citrulline together is better than individually.
You don't need full doses either. Works well for me!
My secret morning recipe: two cups of iced black coffee in the blender. Add 5mg of creatine and your protein powder of choice. The product I use is a two scoop dosage, so I use one scoop of salted caramel and one scoop of cookies and cream. I sip on it while making and eating my omelet. It is better than any Starbucks Frappuccino. You're welcome.
Jack3d 2011/12 😢 taking it dry with a splash of Gatorade before track practice literally made you Superman - everyone was on it
Can verify the early 2000-2010s supplements. We had a member of our unit have a heart attack after drinking several Red Line energy drinks. Far over the recommended dose, and fortunately, he survived, but those were different times.
This video is pure gold
Surprising that Citrulline Malate was the tier 2 rather than L Citrulline being tier 2 with Malic Acid being the tier 3 add on. The literature seems like Malic Acid may provide a small but inconsistent synergistic effect to L Citrulline, and the only negative influence is in the wallet or in underdosing of L Citrulline in preworkouts due to the addition of Malic Acid.
As well, kind of amazed to have this tier list and then... not have an actual list or enough major examples. This was a long video to mostly explain a categorization method. It's good, and there is plenty of early general knowledge, but there are a ton of supplements which could've been rattled off for the general viewer to know what to consider or avoid.
The days of the OG Jack3d and Craze were insane, I remember i'd have a couple hours of euphoria after a workout on Craze 😂
Current stack as 40 year old dad with a 9-5 office job who does Muay Thai, BJJ, lifts kettlebells, does Calisthenics and runs.
Whey - mix it with food like 0%fat Greek yogurt, or use as a meal replacement when I’ve not hit protein goal but don’t have many calories left to stay in a deficit.
Clear whey - just for convenience
Creatine - no brainer
L-Citruline - mix this in my clear whey with Creatine. I don’t do preworkout but like taking this for a small pump.
Turkesterone
TongKat Ali
Faddigo agrestis
Out of the last 3 I feel Tong Kat Ali had greatest effect on testosterone and libido(Cistanche is the only libido supplement I had to stop taking because it worked too well 😉 )
Turkesterone I wasn’t convinced at first didn’t instantly get stronger. But kept taking for the past year, managed to go from double 24KG kettlebell program to running same program with double 32KG bells. Struggled at first but got it done. Packed on about 5lbs of muscle lost 15lbs of fat.
Faddigo agrestis I’ve been taking all 3 on and off for a year. One point only taking Tong Kat on it’s on or with one of the other. I felt the best with all 3 and making the most progress in years so don’t want to change too much.
I’m 5ft 10” currently about 187 lbs at 17% bodyfat.
Goal was to get to 175lbs at 10%
Maybe cut to 165lbs to compete.
But may stay around 180-185 at 12-15% BF as I feel and perform better between those.
Any way that’s what I’m currently doing and is working well.
Also I take the usual vitamins D, K2, fish oil, magnesium, zinc.
Other things I added for health boron, qucertine and NAC. Since I started taking the last two I haven’t gotten sick when my kids or wife have been sick and I’m usually the first to get sick from the kids or over training.
For you somr kind of in trsining Dextrose midwork out ( especially taiboxing) would probably have a great effect on energylevels. Turk does nothing in humans unfortunatly
@@thor498 you may be right. I’ve been focused on fat loss for so long neglecting protein intake. So it might just be now I’m hitting the target while staying in a deficit that’s what made the difference. But I’m hesitant to change anything until I hit my goal. I was 247lbs at my fattest.