Power on Stall Develops Into a Spin
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- Опубликовано: 8 сен 2024
- You've got to expect things are going to go wrong. And we always need to prepare ourselves for handling the unexpected.
- Neil Armstrong, 2005 movie Magnificent Desolation: Walking On The Moon.
December 18, 2012, Tombstone, Arizona. This was a practice power on stall exercise with a student in a Cessna 172 (180HP STC). Notice aircraft is yawing left due to lack of right rudder. When the left wing drops the student attempted recovery by trying to lift the down wing with aileron (a very natural yet incorrect response) , this only aggravates the stall (by further increasing the wings AOA, and more deeply stalling the wing) and the development of a spin begins as we go into the vertical. The correct response to a wing drop is quick and pronounced opposite rudder.
In 15 seconds we went from 7600ft MSL to 6600ft MSL before recovering. The descent was 4000ft a minute! We leveled off at 2100ft AGL and would have had only an additional 30 seconds before impact.
The student goes hands off as I go hands on. We were able to recover after only half a turn (incipient phase) so the spin never fully developed. While pointed in the vertical directly at the ground I will tell you I had to mentally force myself to release the back pressure on the yoke. The urge to keep the yoke fully aft was very strong. As soon as I applied opposite right rudder the rotation stopped (again we were in the incipient phase so the rudder had a ton of authority still, this would not have been the case had the spin fully developed).
It was an intense experience where training I received over a year ago suddenly kicked in. I am very thankful to my CFI spin instructor & air show pilot, Marcus Paine (RIP 8/2016), and the great aerobatic instructors at Chandler Air Service, for preparing me to handle this situation which I was told would eventually happen.
A pilot who wants to train out the natural response to lift a wing with aileron should practice the falling leaf exercise with a CFI.
I dont understand why people have disliked the video! This is the perfect example of a student pilot who made a real life mistake and ,more than likely, learned from it. Many student pilots go through flight training with only being told how to recover from a spin and have never been through one. Perfect example of what not to do and what to do in the event of a spin.
It's the internet. People get offended by anything and everything.
Remember my first time I very much wanted to stick a lot of right Aileron in As well.
at this point i think most low amounts of dislike are bots.
Come to Canada, where spins and spirals are required in training.
Analog Man bro it was probably his first stall lesson, I did that on my first stall but I learnt not to do it again
"Righttttttttt rudddddddddddddddddddderrrrrrrrrrrrrr"
Every CFI ever.
LOL! So true.
My instructor was a B17 pilot. He told me to let it go. I did and things worked out nicely. C152.
Anthony Erdogan Never been told one thing so many times in my life. 😂
@@jeremyduncan3654 Generally Most high wing GA aircraft like the Cesna 150,152,172 etc. will naturally get themselves out of a spin if you just let go. Low wing aircraft though you have to put in opposite rudder to stabilize such as the Piper Tomahawk aka. Traumahawk. Of course Piper actually designed the Tomahawk to require input to recover unlike other GA trainers due to instructors wanting an aircraft to better demonstrate and train spin recovery and well they really designed it well for that. It's always a case of knowing your aircraft and the proper recovery.
Cragified yup. I know the drill on both types of AC. Flown both. Lucky for me, my CFI was a B17 Pilot back in the day. He taught me some cool stuff.
I can still hear my instructor yelling... RIGHT RUDDER. xD
ooof, thats no good x)
Lol yup I know that feeling. "MORE RIGHT RUDDER"
Deliberately in a deep aileron stall spin.
He better have been yelling NEUTRAL AILERON !!!
well yeah, assuming you're spinning to the left.
This comment made me laugh out loud! It’s so true!
To any student pilots watching this, notice how he reacted to the left wing drop by inputting right aileron. If you do this, it further agitates the stalled wing and can induce a spin. Don’t use ailerons in a stall. Minor corrections are okay, but only if coordinated. Use the rudder to prevent this from happening to you.
Changed underpants, use rudder check ✔️
"Step on the ball" as my instructor would say
Teachable moment, as Barry O. would say!
I did some spin training in a C172 at KGMU years ago. The CFII had this "you're feet, you're feet, you're feet" chant that I still do to this day.
I hate power on stalls because you have to be pointed so high to get them to stall. I know they teach getting the power out, opposite rudder and yoke forward, but I think many would be more successful if they just let go of the yoke to force use of the rudder pedals. With power on stalls the stalled wing falls hard and fast and it so easy to have you flip over in a hurry. I feel for the student.
The student is like “ ya know what? I’m taking up guitar!!! “
@PenileAugmentation yeah, I wish planes were as easy to get into as guitar. The learning curve is different obviously, but the cost difference is insane. If someone wanted to get into electric guitar I'd tell them to spend 300-500 bucks on a guitar and 100 bucks on an amp. 9 bucks on a pack of strings every few months. Practice for 2-3 hours a day every day, learn form and technique from youtube. If I wanted to get into aviation in any sense I'm gonna have to drop tens of thousands on a plane, several thousands on the license, god knows how much on hangar fees, fuel, repair and other costs Im sure I'm just not aware of. plus you won't have a single chance of dying learning to play the guitar unless you stick a butter knife into the electrical outlet before you plug the amp in...
@@michaeldaigle7207 costs. exactly
🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣
If God wanted us to fly he would’ve given us money 😂
I died in a guitar accident once; would not recommend
Textbook example of why not to use ailerons when stalling. Thanks for sharing
Exactly, it’s your first instinct, never listen to it, my instructor used to bust my balls every time I did that
What is a ailron?
@@chevy2061 the moving bits on the wings of an airplane that allow it to roll left and right.
@@thierryvt the foot pedals?
chevy The ailerons are moved via left turn or right turn control imputs on the control column. IE, the yoke. The pedals control the rudder, which enacts yaw on the airplane. Yaw is a sideways motion of the nose and tail on the axis parallel to the ground.
This is a fantastic video of a flight instructor who knows where the "mistake threshold" lies. Too many CFI's want to intervene to prevent the student from making mistakes. There's sometimes a fine line between a mistake that will teach a lesson, and a mistake that will bend the airplane. A good CFI knows where the line is, and when he needs to intervene, and when he can let it play out so the student has an opportunity to realize what he did wrong, and learn from it. Fantastic demonstration of the latter.
There’s a concept called “Desirable Difficulty” that I have heard of. A desirable difficulty is, in my view, where that learning is deeply inhaled, and next time the person will do better. The “mistakes that teach lessons” are awesome, especially if they don’t actually get into real danger. I am not a real pilot but learning via Sim about controlling planes, and seeing these real aviation videos helps me understand when a simulator is doing what the real plane would do, and when it’s not.
@@warp9988 😊
Experience CFI
Your comment deserves Nobel laureate
I highly doubt that plane was loaded in the utility category on a normal day like that. A CFI's job is to protect the student from risks and spinning isn't an acceptable risk to allow happen.
I can tell that was his FIRST spin, as he tried to correct with aileron.
Jake Jones but he managed to recover from it after only one turn.
Trying to pilot it like a car.
Pilot Bravo ok “Pilot Bravo”
@@windshearahead7012 Left wing was already stalled (spin condition) BEFORE he applied right aileron. Then after he applied it, the spin rate increased, which can happen because of the aileron input; not to mention possible erratic rotation. Hence why you are supposed to leave the aileron in the NEUTRAL position when initiating a spin maneuver. On top of that, he did not recover until WELL after neutral aileron was applied. Additionally, the ONLY way he was going to recover was to apply (full) right rudder! Hint: uncoordinated flight is what induces a spin. But don't take the word of a "dumbass" who has literally done this maneuver hundreds of times in that very same airplane.
@@MichaelMiller-rg6or His instructor recovered. For what it's worth, the sequence of training is power off stalls, power on stalls, THEN spins. Did not read the description until AFTER my comment which just reinforces what I said.
I didn’t realize there were so many CFI’s in the RUclips community
Student with 15 hours here, LMFAO
italian stallion at least you know something about flying
@@CMDRFlyAuburn Wow. Thank you for the reply.. I'm proficient in power on stalls but yet to be in uncoordinated power on stalls; I didn't know the airplane would recover on its own by relaxing controls and bringing throttle to idle in that type of spin.
@@Planeboy27 The C152 172 are inherently stable - as long as you have altitude you can recover. Got to renew my CFII this month!
italian stallion remember acronym called PARE. If ever in a spin. Power, Ailerons, rudder, elevator.
Despite not being required as a student, I specifically asked for a day or two with spins. I’ve never regretted it since. In fact I’ll force one every now and then nowadays just to stay current with how a spin feels just before it begins and how to make it stop.
I was surprised when I heard that. Good that you requested more than what's required. I also requested hood time, with failed instruments, AND recovery exercises from unusual attitudes. Good feeling to know that you're not gonna hit a rock if you get into the clouds.
I think spin training is good, if for no other reason than it will demonstrate how quickly an airplane can get out of shape. If you've never ridden through a spin and inadvertently get into one, your chances of recovery are, IMO, very small.
I remember one of my first power on stalls with my instructor and I did this exact same thing. My hand went straight up and I was prepared to die as my instructor took over while he was laughing! It was a very good experience and one that I will never forget. In my opinion, spin training should be done for all levels of pilots. Especially private pilots, we teach them how to get out of a stall but not a spin? It could save lives.
How do you stop spinning out of curiosity?
@@iiGethii There's an acronym they *should* at least inform you of, my instructor did: PARE
P: Power to idle
A: Ailerons neutral
R: Opposite rudder
E: Elevator forward
@@sm3xym3xican76 power idle aileron neutral rudder opposite elevator postive control
We do teach spin recovery, it is in the ACS standards. They just don’t have to actually do it in the airplane.
@@iiGethii I think immediate action items should be made as simple as possible, to aid recall during what is sure to be a high stress moment:
- IDLE
- NEUTRALIZE
- RUDDER opposite the spin.
always keep thinking. if those control inputs don't break the spin in short order (a turn or two), neutralize the rudder and try again. if the spin didn't break you probably jammed on the wrong rudder. reassess the spin direction and put the correct rudder back in.
for single engine like a 172, and it's left turning tendency, most likely will need right rudder.
I got my license back in 1982 with a group of 4 friends who all lived on a private airstrip. (We are all still alive and flying today thanks to him) Our instructor was also an airline's captain. He made certain that we learned rolls, loops, stalls, spins, and that we became comfortable with them. He knew that straight and level flight was only enough knowledge to get us into trouble, so he gave the extended course. All of our students now take 10 hours aerobatics training before getting licensed. The best thing you'll Ever do for safety. 9 out of 10 aircraft accidents are pilot error due to panic, confusion, and lack of knowledge for that situation. If you watch this video and get scared or have a negative comment, then get the training or stay home.
Absolutely love that as a policy. Aerobatics training would make us all better pilots
Amen!
True!
Great example of how aileron input only exacerbates the spin.
Indeed! But its easy to understand though, especially if it is an unplanned stall, a panicked reaction would be to use the ailerons to pick-up the stalling wing, which of course only makes the problem a whole lot worse. I learned in Tommys so have a natural respect of the spin:)
It’s not a spin.
the wrong aileron - not the correct one.
Exacerbates? Or makes it more awesome?
Good video! I made the same mistake 57 years ago in a Cessna 150. Let go of the controls and it came right out. Landed and got an Instructor and we went right back up and I learned a lot in the next hour with one of the "Old Timers." Now, 57 years and 30K+ hours later, I've taught spins to upcoming aviators. Never stop learning. "Mike" Kelly, now myself, an "Old School" Aviator and CFI.
I can hear my instructor in the back of my head.. "right rudder, Right Rudder, RIGHT RUDDER, I have control"
Lol @ I have control
You have control 😞
My control
That guy seemed to get really concerned there for a moment.
I don't get why you guys are making a big deal of this. Comments go on about how the CFI did this, the pilot did this.. in Canada, we did this during training for PPL... Literally spins, I have done probably 15-20 of them, and it's been fine. Why do people act like it's the end of the world. You should BE REQUIRED to learn the recovery, just so you can live if it happens at a low altitude.
exactly! you want to know how to recover, what better way to do that with you instructor then do it solo and have no clue what to do!
Since stall/spin accidents are a frequent cause of really bad endings, you wonder why training in this area was discontinued for the PPL in the U.S. I got my PPL over 30 years ago and was lucky to have an instructor that believed in spin training before solo. Dave had me fly the airplane in a manner trying to duplicate unintentional spin entry. I would wonder, even as a student pilot, how someone could so grossly handle an airplane trying to get these unintentional spins, but pilots do because they have never done spins, and don't recognize what causes them, I suppose. We did lots of spins attempting recovery on a predetermined heading. Use of ailerons in spin recovery is not a good idea, keep them neutral. Spins in an aircraft certified for doing them is fun. Accelerate the stall to get a nice spin entry. If you missed out on this kind of training, take a basic aerobatics course. You will have fun, and have a much better chance of flying the airplane to the ground, if the worst ever happens. If you lose control of your airplane before touchdown in an emergency landing, things can be pretty grim.
I agree.. In the US, we USED to teach that, but some time ago, they started teaching spin avoidance rather than spin recovery. I trained in '96 and it was already getting rare to have an instructor who would spin intentionally (I've never done it) but these days, I more than not get told to "recover" at the first peep out of the stall warning, where I feel I probably have another 5kts to lose before it even really stalls, let alone spin... I guess I need to take some aerobatic training...
Steve Jones Just come to Canada for a check out ride to fly a rental here. Chances are there would be a question in flight about it, and if you asked, it could be demonstrated.
TheMeslava That sounds like a great idea.. We're planning on making a long weekend trip to Niagra falls / Toronto this Summer.. maybe I'll have to make an afternoon appointment somewhere!! :-)
These were very good words of wisdom. I would like to thank you for sharing them and this wonderful video!
I worked as a CFI for almost four years, flying almost exclusively in Cessna 152s. And the threat of a stall progressing into a spin is very real. I've had it happen with me a handful of times, and with all kinds of students - PPL students, proficient private pilots and even during CFI training with proficient commercial pilots. As you mentioned, when a stall maneuver goes badly and the airplane surprises you with a spin, it can be really hard to ignore your instinctive urges to apply aileron and keep the column pulled back. This just goes to show the importance of understanding the aerodynamics of the spin, and also the importance of always thoroughly briefing the maneuvers of the day.
Thanks again for the great video!
Murilo Vidal great video !!!
Juan Brown of the Blancolirio channel was doing a demonstration of stalls in "The Mighty Luscomb" and he mentioned the proper (not) use of ailerons. In a following stall, the left wing dropped and he inadvertently added full right aileron. He acknowledged his mistake and laughed about it, but it made the point that the reaction is deeply ingrained.
Great video and learning moment! Would you be okay with me featuring this in an episode of Weekly Dose of Aviation? Of course you will be credited both in the video and in the description.
maybe he will answer your comment 10 years later
@@GeovanniGames 20years
Why is everyone just getting this recommended to them?
@@ethanroebuck3028 Idk, do you generally watch avation videos like I do?
@@KikixPT 30 years
As CFI who provides spin training, I am SO GRATEFUL for this video. I can explain inadvertent spin entries all day long and foot stomp “do not use the ailerons to bring up a dropping wing” but that doesn’t carry near the weight of an actual real life example. I show this video when I give spin instruction. Classic. Thank you for posting!
I took flight lessons in the '90s with a fairly young instructor.
He never talked to me about the importance of maintaining coordinated flight into and through the stall, or the dangers of abrupt aileron inputs at or near stalls. I ended up putting us in a spin and it scared the shit out of me. I got us out of it without his assistance in about three rotations, but stalls still totally scared me after that, because he never explained to me why it happened and how I could avoid it in the future.
After a lot of years of not flying, I decided to take up flight training up again. This time, I had an instructor who explained to me why rudder input is so important, and why I should always compensate for a wing drop with rudder and not aileron control. After it was explained, it made sense, and now I'm not terrified of stalls anymore.
Communication and explanation was the key.
I guess the cabin smelled horrible after that.
The joke is he shit his pants
I was just gonna say that. Ha!
Worst case scenario....'I pissed myself'
Claudi M. - Safe to say underwear was changed shortly after landing.
shitting bricks wouldnt smell that bad
ATC- “DECEND 1000 IMMEDIATELY”
Pilot- *induces spin*
The most underrated comment😂😂
Yes that's how early dog fighters used spins to lose altitude quickly
That was how non instrument rated pilots would get through an over cast. It's the most stable and quickest and safest way if you know the weather conditions at the bottom of the overcast
@@SKIPWOOD-UA777CAPTI would hope you would know the terrain conditions as well
I think the main value of spin recovery training is so a student won't be so afraid to practice stall recognition, avoidance, and stall recovery. And of course, if one of those stalls isn't unstalled quick enough, the student knows what to do. Remember, when a wing drops, stick forward and top rudder.
That's the first time I've heard "top rudder" instead of "opposite rudder". I really like "top rudder", makes perfect sense.
Great video thanks for sharing! THIS is exactly why I require spin training for my student pilots training for private pilot.
When I was going through flight training myself, I knew of two people in my same class who inadvertently entered spins on solo flights practicing maneuvers in the practice area, both had practiced spins in the simulator, but hadn't had any flight training with spins. I want every one of my students to have their first spin in a controlled environment with an instructor in the right seat.
Once you have practiced spins, they become very safe, and actually are one of my favorite things to do in an airplane (provided you're in an airplane that is rated for spins and there's no AD's against spins).
I'll be doing some upset recovery training soon in a Citabria, where we'll be doing inverted and flat spins, and I can't wait.
😂 ain't flying with you 👆 😂 jk I actually would, better to learn how to recover sooner then later
This is a good example of why you should 1) fully reduce the angle-of-attack below the critical angle-of-attack, 2) do not use ailerons to control roll, must use rudder to control lateral stability!! Haha, I made the same mistake when I was a student!! When I was flight instructing, I would make my students sit on both of their hands while I had the airplane in a full power off stall and they would have to control roll with rudder, its amazing how quick they trust the use of rudders during a stalled flight condition, sure was a lot of fun!!. All in all, cool video man!!
That is a GREAT teaching method!
Kasey Dixon Thank you, do you teach?
Hehe, no, I am but a lowly mechanic that flies occasionally for fun. I am starting a Professional Pilot program here in August however, and will be obtaining my CFI, CFII, MEI, etc in the process. Filing this one away for both my own training and others. :)
Outstanding!! I was an aviation mechanic too!! I then later received my CFI CFII MEI and flight instructed for a few years, now I'm an Airline Pilot!!
jeff henley That's a really cool idea.. I can totally see how that would be eye-opening for the student.. This video is great - you can see everything in the stall is going fine until he tries to correct w/ Aileron, and then things go downhill quick.. For someone who has never been in a spin, it is interesting to see just how fast it can happen, and better yet, how easy of a recovery it is..
I had the identical thing happen when I was taking primary training. My instructor was ex-military and excellent! I kept trying to use the aileron to pick up the wing when it stalled, and was "weak on rudder," as he kept saying.
Finally, he said, "OK, slide your feet back against your seat." I did. "Now stall and recover."
As soon as we stalled, a wing dropped, and I reflexly tried to pick it up with the aileron. This raised the angle of attack on that wing, and in an instant we were in a spin. I'd never spun before and it scared me feces-less. I let go of the yoke and yelled, "Whoa!"
The instructor just laughed a little and recovered the airplane. I never, ever repeated that mistake.
so only use rudder to recover a spin is what he was trying to tell you ? xD
Jim hold the yoke to his gut? are you sure? I swear all pilots were taught to reduce back pressure, considering pulling the yoke further back just effectively increases your angle of attack...
not intending to sound like I'm criticizing hin for doing it, jist want to make sure I have it right. it's ailerons neutral instead of what he did, right? taking flight lessons soon
Yes using the ailerons just makes the stall worse as it makes the angle of attack even greater on an already stalled wing.
It is a natural but incorrect response to wing drops during stalls.
Using the rudder which still has control authority in a stall is the correct way to control the direction of the aircraft in a stall.
Yes, it is. Its not easy though, but you must keep the ailerons neutral despite what your instincts tell you. When you enter a stall and you get a wing drop, your natural instinct will want to use the ailerons to pick up the wing and get yourself flying straight again. Sadly the opposite happens, when you use ailerons you increase the angle of attack on the stalled wing, and you flip the aircraft into a spin.
Use the PARE acronym.
Power idle
Ailerons neutral
Rudder opposite
Elevator forward
roll into the stall and push
So how'd it go? CPL and all that now?
I remember my student pilot training in a Cessna 150, 40 years ago..we practiced power on and off stalls...my instructor showed me how to recover from a stall and spin...he taught me to just release the yoke..He told me the airplane wants to fly straight and level when trimmed correctly...he said to just stop all inputs..release the yoke..the stalled wing will recover and the spin will stop..it seems absurd and goes against all instincts...but it truly works ...
This happened to me while while I was a student on a solo flight. Same left rotation. I pulled power, left the yoke neutral and applied full right rudder and rotation stopped instantly but I was still in a pretty steep dive. I slowly pull back on the stick and applied power to level off. Why was I so successful? Because I built (from a stack of balsa wood) and flew several R/C aircraft for many years before I flew full scale. I'm living proof that R/C translates to full scale in a good way.
Didn't you ever practice that with an FI before? It's mandatory for glider pilots to practice stalls and spins. No one would let a glider pilot fly solo before they have practiced that. Well, admittedly we like flying very slow while thermaling.
@@hepdepaddel Of course otherwise I would have not been soloing. You practice all of the required maneuvers prior to solo. From what I have been able to tell most believe its due to uncoordinated control input just before the stall, usually not enough right rudder.
I am sticking to RC for now.
As a person who’s just done stalling, doing it for the first time literally blew my mind
Same for me when I done turning stall full flap, I put the stick forward too far. Certainly came out of the seat
see how is eyes got real big when the alerons had no effect
the aileron actually had some effect..,
unintended effect.
C172 spin recovery procedure: Right rudder with your foot and pray with your hands -Cessna blessed CFI
lolz
This should read: correct rudder with foot.
PARE. That's what we used at the Cessna factory.
NB:- Have read many comments. The student's reaction is what you would do driving a car & it is instinctive. Spin recovery needs to be practiced. Great tutorial.
Because of the P-Factor of the prop, when full power is applied, the aircraft is yawing to the left. This should be corrected with... and if you’re like me you’ve heard this 1,000 times... Right Rudder! This is what potentially makes power-on stalls so dangerous.
Excellent explanation and demonstration of an aggravated stall! As a Canadian student pilot, we would practice stall/spin recoveries..solo!
Took a lot of nerve to do my 1st solo spin and recovery but wow, it sure built up confidence!
I recognize that look.
Good on the CFI for letting the student go all the way. I'm not going to rag on the student, opposite aileron is a totally natural response in primary training. This is why spin training is important...and yet most private pilots (and even commercial pilots, I dare say) have never seen a spin. But this student got a glimpse of it, and I'm sure he never forgot!
As a Canadian flight instructor I've performed 1000's of spins and had every single one of my students perform and recover from at least 3.... Why no spins in the American system?
Duukar agreed, i'm american and in training, but my instructor says that it is no longer required by the FAA to learn it, only if you are training to be an instruct you can learn it. Which is weird to me because if you don't know what to do when you spin your aircraft you are kinda fucked.
***** That seems weird to me. Do most pilots not use the instruments when flying? I spend like 70% of my time looking at dials, and the other 30% outside. (which you're not supposed to, but it turned into a bad habit)
I close my eyes and hang on to my seat belt scream really loud. Let it fix itself.
I just had my spin training today for my CFI. My instructor was lamenting that they would really love to demonstrate spins for private pilot students, but the local FSDO won't allow it because of FAR 91.307, which requires parachutes be worn by all passengers for any such maneuver unless it is *required* for the certificate being sought. It's only required for CFI (which is why I got to "enjoy" them this morning) so the FSDO's interpretation of that rule is that without a parachute, it's against regulations to demonstrate them to primary students. Kinda sad.
This is a normal part of flight training, but moreover, it’s an illustration of a common student error. Watch how he goes full opposite aileron- you can’t do that, it only exacerbates the stalled wing.
Hats off to the pro CFI that exposes his students to this kind of quality training.
My instructor let me do the exact same thing and laughed the whole time. I learned my lesson that day.
Lol, never use ailerons in a stall, this is what happens
GVad The Pilot It's a textbook example. The student applies full right aileron, and it has exactly zero effectiveness against the left roll.
GVad The Pilot Yes! Dropping the aileron on the most stalling (falling) wing just increases the angle of attack, adds drag, and aggravates the stall even further.
Skyhawk _452 Well, most wings are designed to stall from the wing root out (higher aoa at wing root than wing tip), so aileron will most likely still have some authority in a stall. however incorrect use of aileron in a spin can make it flatspin. And so it's best to just keep the ailerons in the center. also worth to note that rudder is going to give you way more control over the aircraft than what your ailerons will do.
Sorry to hear that, man. May he rest in peace.
My point was not that the ailerons are the only thing that make a plane flatspin. What i meant to say is that inproper use of aileron in a normal spin can make the situation worse. most airplanes recover fine with just rudder and centralized stick, however if the aircraft does not recover at all then aileron (dependant on airplane) can sometimes help. proper use of aileron in a flatspin can sometimes help recovery.
again, sorry to hear about your friend.
Never been in a flat spin but in what I have read, an aft CG makes recovery nearly impossible. My ME instructor told me a story about one of his CF-I students whom he was giving Spin training to. He made it clear to the student that the WB was critical for the aircraft that they were flying to conduct the spin training. So they go flying and enter the first spin. Tried to recover and was unable to get the nose to drop. He told the student to unbuckle the move his body weight as far over the glare shield as possible. They recovered at about 2k. Later found that the student had put his IFR flight bag (heavy/full of charts and crap) in the baggage area to keep it from moving about the cockpit during training. He was told to leave his bag in his car and just bring a headset and a sectional!!!! Not sure if that bag caused the issue but it is a lesson learned.
What a great video. As soon as I saw the students responding to a dropped wing with Aileron, I knew where it was going. I’m of the opinion that really solid education on stalls, AOA, etc is something we should be doing a better job with. Anyone who has had Aerobatic training gets that education. I sought out Spin training many years ago and spent more time than my poor instructor would have preferred winding up and unwinding a Champ spinning Left, Right, Power on, Power Off. Nice video, I know it’s old but it’s good. Thanks for sharing.
I loved doing spins.
Seat of pants, saved my life.
Feeling when it " breaks ", you recover rapidly!
Instinctively!
I got sick during spin training so cant relate.
Most instructors seem to be very afraid of power-on stalls and spin recovery training. I understand why it's uncomfortable, of course I do, but it will never get safer than learning them in something like a 152 or 172, and it's an thing important to know.
I remember I had asked my instructor for a spin class, to which he said "oh ask Kyle for those" (Kyle was the lead instructor and examiner at the school). So a few weeks later, I decided to seek out Kyle and ask him. Kyle said "ohhhh im not sure, ask your instructor, he'll be able to give you a spin course." I went back to my instructor, to which he said "nahhhh Kyle always gives those! Ask him nicely." Well... I just didn't really feel like dancing around the bush to eventually squeeze out a half-assed spin class, and I wasn't flying THAT often at the time, so I never got around to doing them until later.
Not only spins, but also power-on stalls. In pretty much all my checkrides, I've asked my examiner if he wants to see the power-on stall, to which they always respond, without fail, "nahhh we don't need do that today." I know examiners really dont need to see everything, but literally the the only maneuver that has ALWAYS been postponed on me is the power-on stall. At my school I went through a lot of checkrides (a pre-solo check, a pre-cross country check, a mock final check, etc), and not once did I have to do a power-on stall, not even during the real checkride.
Although I'm not a CFI, I understand why it's so easy to avoid these maneuvers. If you do lessons/exams for a living, I completely understand why you wouldn't want to be something like power-on stalls and spins every other day. It would wear me down!
Similarly, if I was a chemistry teacher, I would despise having to do a lab with students every single day.
That being said, both are important in their respective domains, so it's good to do these when you get the chance with an instructor 👍
I'll second that. I actually failed my first check ride because I did not recover fast enough from a power-on spin. Quite surprised to learn such exercises are not even required anymore.
The first spin my CFI demonstrated, I put my hands on the cabin ceiling in surprise. There was a whole lot of Mother Earth in the windscreen all of a sudden and she was spinning around, what the heck? Note to self, hands on the ceiling wouldn't be helpful for spin recovery! Then I did a spin entry myself under supervision, and failed to pull the power all the way off, which can increase risk of flat spin. The CFI had to pull the power back for me. After those two initial weirdnesses, my responses got smarter and I started to think that spinning was fun! A student who hasn't seen something before is likely to do the wrong thing. That's what training is for. The CFI in this video times the intervention just right -- allows the student to make the aileron-in-the-stall mistake, and then steps in before a fully developed spin. The student won't do that again! Great video!
If you use ailerons during a stall recovery, you're gonna have a bad time
You mean pizza when you're supposed to french fry?
@@johnroby1865 🤣🤣👍🏻
*Megalovania starts playing*
@@garfieldandfriends1 man what
Awesome... Happened to me the first time I attempted a power on stall. More than the recovery, I'd say the most important lesson learned here is to keep the ball centered during stall maneuvers.
While getting my pilot's license, I tried a power on stall by myself. I had just soloed and been cleared by my instructor to fly on my own. The Cessna 172 Skyhawk I was flying had a 180 HP engine, slightly more powerful than the 160 HP in other 172s I had flown. While stalling, I put the same amount of rudder input as with the lesser powered aircraft. It wasn't quite enough rudder and I snapped into a spin.
My instructor had not briefed me on how to recover from a spin. But the day before I had received an AOPA VCR tape (this was a few years ago) on how to handle emergency situations. Spin recovery was one of the topics on the tape. The steps to recover immediately came to mind and I was able to get out of it. I had spun 270 degrees, first heading east, then rotating to the left and recovering heading south. I went from 1500 ft AGL to 500 ft AGL in that short amount of time.
I had to fly around for 15-20 minutes just to calm down as my hands were still shaking on the control wheel as I realized how close I came to getting myself killed.
Glad you're still with us!! Good heavens!!
I dont fly, but all the comments here say that nobody teaches spin recovery anymore, just avoidance, and that because of it, most people die not knowing how to recover. How is this legal? Why do they not teach this like they would teach basic driving or using a boat or any other vehicle
@@sol2544 - I have been told that spin recovery used to be taught years ago but not anymore. If this is true, I don't know why.
@@sol2544 to my understanding, it's because trying to teach it killed students. The inherit danger is high enough that even in a controlled environment, it can get out of hand quickly. While you aren't required to learn as a private pilot, you are required to learn as an instructor. So at the very least, your teacher knows.
@@migmindy I still think that proves my point. Surely, for things like that, I hope flight simulation machines can train pilots in it safely, since those machines are becoming something of a craze
I love the CFI saying so calmly "🙄 and now we're in a spin..." he's seen some shit, like we all have.
Good video for students. When spin starts, nose down smoothly, rudder to the other side, power and level. Never use yoke to recover the banking.
Never use aileron. Always use rudder
Gibbon :|
Moral of the story . Spin is fun ! I always intentionally put a bit of left rudder and aileron to go into a spin ! Those training days will never come back ! Those spin practices and recovery took me to a stage where you feel the plane through the yoke and rudder and you will have confidence at any point of time you will be able to recover . I am thankful to my instructor who used to take me to a safe altitude around 6500 feet and let me do whatever I wanted with the plane ! The 152 was aerobatic certified and I did whatnot ? Flying an Airbus is nowhere the same .... Bring back those Cessna days ! All I want to do is spin . An aircraft recovers like a butter if the training is correct ! Amazing video ! And those nincompoop overconfident people commenting here . Please keep quiet . He is learning and he tried to do what a student pilot would do. This lesson showed him what he is not supposed to do. Negative training sometimes play veery positive part in flying
By all means, indulge yourself and spin your Airbus! The crowd in the back will be delighted! 👹
@@duartesimoes508 next day you would be the center of attention
I was foolish enough/inexperienced enough to raise the dropped wing during a full stall while IFR training. My instructor handled it with much less aplomb! He was furious. I think I scared him. So I decided on my own to immediately get some serious unusual attitude recovery instruction and spin training before flying again. With enough training, I think you can retrain your instincts so you don't have to make your brain fight your instincts to raise the wing or yank back the yoke.
Well said Craig. Below is a copy of comments I made of pretty much the same thoughts you had.
In my experience as a pilot and a flight instructor, you can be told something on the ground or read something in a book and tell yourself "oh I will never do that." In the air, when it happens for the FIRST time, basic instinct overrides everything. It takes a few seconds for the brain to process, recall the information, and to tell the muscles to override the initial reaction with the correct response. Not until you repetitively train the actual correct response can you expect the instinctive reaction to be overridden by the correct action. In this case having the student practice the falling leaf exercise is a good way to teach a student to lift a wing with rudder and not aileron.
+Craig Lachman Very right. As a student pilot, even though I keep chanting "wings level, ball centered, VVI 0, no aileron on wing drop" as the stall develops, I once found myself starting to correct a wing drop with the yoke for a brief moment, before I switched to the rudder.
You need a lot of practice to carve it in your brain. And an instructor ready for the worst case scenario.
After I had soloed, when I was 16, I wanted my instructor to teach me spins. He didn't want to but I kept asking. Finally he gave me the training and signed my log book. This is why I am glad I got the training. It's all about the rudder and if you mess up your stall you may end up doing what this guy did.
I did the same thing on my first power on stall. Except in screamed a curse word. Instructor had casually advised, "if you drop a wing make sure to fix it with rudder and not aileron." Wish he hadn't been so casual. 10 spins later it was kind of fun
That was the first time he saw the ground in the wind screen...lol
gets in a stall, pulls up....classic Buffallo
I'm not sure if that was the stall warning sounding, or the pilot squeaking one out due to fear. I'm inclined to believe the latter
Yeah I’m sure these are practice stalls
I post bad video of a take off of a Cessna Skyhawk and now I get all these flight videos recommended........
COOL!
He knew what he was doing. He placed his hand on the pillar for a reason. No aileron use in a spin recovery only rudder. Spot on recovery.
I almost crapped when I saw him go full deflection on the aileron. Lol!
MY CONTROLS
Hey, I'm always trying to learn. The comment: "recovery by trying to lift the down wing with aileron (a very natural
yet incorrect response) , this only aggravates the stall (by further
increasing the wings AOA, and more deeply stalling the wing)," caught my attention.
I've always thought that that the "downed aileron" created a great deal of DRAG, thus causing that wing to drop - am I wrong? If so, I've been wrong for over 30 years.
Yes, yawing the plane via rudder is the way to go - will "speed up" that wing and cause it to "rise." Thanks,
+Michael Donavon Michael, recall that a spin is caused by both yaw and asymmetry in the stall between the left and right wing. Angle of attack is based on relative wind and the wings chord. Wing chord is based on a line from the leading edge to the trailing edge of the wing. When we deflect an aileron we change the location of the trailing edge and thus change the chord. Trying to lift a wing will cause the aileron to deflect downward, changing the chord and further increasing the angle of attack on the more deeply stalled wing. This causes more drag on that wing which increases yawing moment further and it further increases the imbalance in the stall between the left and right wing which increases roll rate because at the same time the aileron on the opposite wing has deflected up, decreased the chord/relative wind angle and decreased drag. On top of all of this the roll is changing the relative wind for the worse which further intensifies the imbalance between the left and right wings.
All of these variables continue through the incipient phase of the spin before the plane finally finds its happy place and the spin stabilizes. Once fully developed a spin is very much a stable state for the airplane and it will hold this indefinitely if not for one small problem, the ground. Fortunately the pilot has the rest of his or her life to figure out how to recover ;)
Timothy Timmons
Thank you Mr. Timmons for you detailed analysis - it was instructive.
Your (partial) comment: "...on the more deeply stalled wing. This causes more drag on that wing (your were speaking of the downward aileron) which increases yawing moment further and it further increases the imbalance in the stall between the left and right wing which increases roll rate because at the same time the aileron on the opposite wing has deflected up..."
So, the downward deflected aileron does contribute to increased DRAG, (yawing the plane to that downed aileron), which plays an important role in the aircraft progressing into a spin - in addition to all of the other variables.
Do appreciate your comments - was definitely "grist for the mill." :)
+Michael Donavon
Ailerons do at times stall wings. Only momentarily.
Watching this made me more confident about power on stalls
My instructor taught me “PEAR”
P-Pull throttle
E-Elevator neutral
A-Aileron neutral
R-Rudder smashed to opposite side of spin
Once the spin stops, then slowly pull back on yoke and give power again.
Used to be standard practice for PPL.
I was taught “PARE”
He'll remember right rudder after that!!!!!
Your left aileron became a spoiler. Use your feet to remain coordinated, not your ailerons.
Left aileron became a flap, right aileron became a spoiler.
Fs 2020 looks amazing
That was a great demonstration of adverse yaw (pilot trying to roll out of the wing drop and the drag from the down aileron yawing the airplane more into the wing drop) developing the spin.
His reaction was not text book but neither was his entry. This is a great video to go over with every student so they don’t find themselves in the same situation and if they do they know how to recover.
Spin training is something every pilot should invest in. I do a lot of Acro and know I need to go back up and do some spin work.
I heard myself saying “more right rudder, more right rudder, MORE RIGHT RUDDER!”
Then saw the wing drop, attempted use of aileron to stop the roll, control reversal and spin entry.
Every student should experience this at least once. Mostly to see the spin recovery procedure works as advertised.
Good job by the instructor.
The aileron input to stop the roll agrivated the spin. Slow speed rudder only!
You have to use rudder to stop a spin? Not aileron?
Yes as airspeed bleeds off the aileron control will induce a stall in the wing tips. The airplane will drop a wing. also the induced drag will cause the aircraft to use at the same time. Flight at minimum controllable airspeed relys upon rudder and elevator control inputs mainly
You use opposite rudder to break the spin. If you are spinning left you use right rudder. Then you recover from your dive. Power at idle until you level off. Then apply power.
0:12 adding aileron caused all this right rudder NO aileron next time
Plane: *spins.
Instructor: “Now we’re in a spin”.
Pilot: *screams internally and grabs plane.
System: *screams in rubber chicken “Ahhhhhhh”!
CFI: *Takes over and corrects plane.
You can tell he really got scared when he put his hand on the window frame . I love honest terror , what a rush.
The pilot looks scared of death. In a Pitts Special you snap it into a spin including using ailerons. Then add power to flatten it out. A spin is scary in a spam can. Always remember what good stick and rudder pilots say, "a yoke is a joke".
Good job, man. You may have messed up the maneuver, but chances are, you will be in a stall spin as oppose to a regular stall in a normal situation. Even if you didn't do this right, you definitely got the spirit. Things happen that we don't expect, the number one thing to keep in mind is to fly the airplane and you did it without panicking. Great job!
this happened to me a week ago! not fun! luckily my instructor was there!
gotta step on the ball.. so important configuring behind the power curve to induce the maneuver.
This brings back memory when I used fly. I went in to double spin over the lake on my own. Right rudder brought me back to stabilize Piper Tomahawk. But my first time stall with my instructor I looked more surprised then this student.
I made this mistake in a Cherokee 140. I was 19, 1965. I can still hear the instructor yelling at me over the engine noise, relax, let go of the yoke, the airplane will fly itself. Stall / Spin recovery a very important lesson.
My Controls , My Controls!!
CFII memories.
A CFI should let the student go only as far into a mistake as he will still be able to save the flight. A student will learn by recognizing and correcting them rather than an instructor yelling at him. I've done many BFRs and flight safety checks and never signed off anyone without having them get into, recognize and recover from a fully developed spin.
For those wondering, the spin is caused by the damping in roll derivative (Clp) changing sign. The rolling motion induces a variation of the angle of attack on the wings. Normally when rolling to the right the right wing will experience a higher angle of attack and will generate more lift. The lift imbalance on the two wings will generate a restoring rolling moment ( this is why the name “damping in roll”). When flying near the stall region an increase in angle of attack on the right wing will cause a decrease in lift on that wing and thus a rolling moment that will cause the wing to autorotate. This is why you don’t use ailerons when stalling.
Let go of those ailerons!!!!
I like how so many people on here are feeding him crap for this - You just don’t know what you would do in a situation until you’re in it!!! People need to learn some humility instead of playing tough guy on the RUclips comment section. Especially if it’s your first spin, using the ailerons to “steer” is a perfectly normal reaction; and that’s why he had an instructor and that’s why we learn!!
For my pilot’s license spin training was required. Agreed you use opposite rudder to recover from a spin and you apply and hold until the autorotation stops. Then check forward on the yoke to break the stall. Aileron should be neutralized, input of a aileron could aggravate the stall. Also, this was a power on stall so power should have been reduced to idol. It’s a good thing that this guy was not flying a Tomahawk or he wouldn’t be around to post the video. Lucky guy.
According to my calculations, the weight of the poop which came out of him is approx 3.5 grams
Me in simulator battle in war thunder
RUDDER (I can hear my flight instructor)
Forget the yoke, and right rudder and power back. Smooth transition back to flight.
PARE: POWER (OFF)-AILERONS (NEUTRAL)-RUDDER (OPPOSITE THE ROTATION TILL IT STOPS)-ELEVATOR (RELAX IT, THEN UP GENTLY) When I was first learning in a Cessna I tried an accelerated stall and put it into a spin. After we recovered I asked the CFI to teach them to me so I'd be able to safely get out of one. Then they were fun! When I moved to gliders stalls and spins were no big deal. (Though in spin recovery you can't wait after breaking the stall because you build up speed fast.) The main danger from spins is getting into one by skidding in the pattern, as there's no altitude to recover. Otherwise the big concern is a sloppy recovery which can lead to a spiral dive. But they really do not have to scare anyone. When you learn to fly get some spin practice from a competent instructor!
That face was priceless!
when you thought flying is the same as drifting
plane dorifto
Lol what part of ailerons neutral do you not understand
First of all, this is a stall resistant Cessna. You literally have to force the stall and spin all the way down, else it recovers automatically eventually (if you can avoid over speed).
Recovery is just:
Right rudder to stop left spin, get coordinated flight and pull up to level flight. Accelerate to vy at 74 knots and climb to recover lost altitude.
I had been taught in training. Practicing stalls in a 152 I did what he did but worse. I got about 3 full spins before I remembered to release the yoke and put full opposite rudder in. Pulled right out. Shook all the way back to the airport to change my shorts. Big lesson that day.
I now provide spin endorsements to CFI students, I show them this video to let them know to expect the unexpected
ruclips.net/video/f7ZbAEXknEI/видео.html
+Timothy Timmons
Should have let it go a couple of turns too after to show the illusions. Climb up to 10,000 and do a 5 looper and ask them to tell you where they land.
I think you're very smart to allow the student to actually mess up instead of instantly jumping in to prevent a mistake. I don't think students will learn as well or as quickly if they never actually see what happens given a certain situation and action. Good video.
Timothy Timmons I'm working on my CFI and just completed my spin training, a lot of fun. We used power-off stall entry and full rudder deflection to get the spin started. I noticed your student got the spin going by trying to bring wings level with opposite aileron (right) which stalled the left wing. Do you recall if he was inputting left rudder as well?
Timothy Timmons oh it was probably uncoordinated left turning tendency torque with full power along with full right aileron deflection.
I remember practicing power on stalls as a student and one time is started to develop into a spin. I immediately corrected it by taking my hand off the controls and applying opposite rudder and my flight instructor still cussed me out about it. That was about the time that I lost confidence in him as an instructor. He took a perfect teaching opportunity and an opportunity to Tell me what I did right to correct the problem and turned it into a very unnecessarily stressful situation. Then he asked me if he could be my instructor for my IFR training. I was like, no thanks.
I did this with Vincenzo Fornabaio (R.I.P.) as a training to recover from spin. It is very easy...as long as you have some thousands feet below you. The procedure was exactly to stall and push the left rudder; afterwards right rudder to stop spinning and then level the airplane. After 3 spins I was totally sick
Good job. The Cessna can actually recover itself if you forget the techniques of spin recovery.
No I tried but it won't recover automatically.