PC-12/45 N273SM Guardian Flight Reno NV. 24 Feb 2023
HTML-код
- Опубликовано: 6 июн 2024
- LINKS:
ASN: aviation-safety.net/wikibase/...
ADSB Exchange: globe.adsbexchange.com/?icao=...
Live ATC: ruclips.net/user/redirect?even...
PATREON: www.patreon.com/user?u=529500...
Learning The Finer Points -10% OFF! www.learnthefinerpoints.com/g...
Theme: "Weightless" Aram Bedrosian
www.arambedrosian.com 
Наука
Scott was a great man and a great friend. We worked together at L3 Harris. Always a smile on his face and a military presence that reminded me of my uncle Paul. He was a great father and an outstanding aviator with an impeccable record. He was in my new hire class and quickly rose to the ranks of check airmen. While many let that position get to their heads, he was always kind and fair to my students. You’ll be missed sir. Blue skys and tailwinds.
❤
As a former flight nurse, here's what I don't get. The companies that own &/or sponsor these flights routinely charge patients and their insurance companies tens of thousands for each flight. Given the fact that most medical flight crashes involve some form of spatial disorientation, often in bad weather, these operators must have two pilots. I stopped med-evacing after a harrowing experience diving into a small town aboard an MU-2, into a smaller town in the middle of a raging snow-storm. We managed to land, but couldn't take-off due to conditions. Having two pilots may have saved our lives. Not to say that two onbaord pilots means the most appropriate decision will happen.
⬆️ This! 💯
It mirrors the Ambulance companies who charge astronomical prices for a short ride in a diesel van. I can't imagine their overhead being too much minus insurances, yet they pay their EMT's and paramedics like fast food employees, and once again charge you the patient $12 for the use of one pair of latex gloves. Its one of the most corrupt industry in the United States in my opinion.
You basically nailed it. Bad weather already means high risk conditions. Throw a complex plane into this and refusing to fund two pilots is just multiplying that risk factor even higher.
"Having two pilots may have saved our lives."
"Having two pilots probably saved our lives." Fixed. Changes the outcome of the incident completely.
What you've said here makes a hell of a lot of sense. Aviation medevac companies need to invest in more flights where two pilots are available instead of just a single pilot.
Scott was my former co-worker at L3 Harris. We were in the same CFI class together. He was the ultimate professional and a great pilot. From the ATC tapes, he sounds very fatigued. We flew IMC regularly, so skills weren’t really in question, but fatigue is a real killer. Especially when single pilot in the weather. God bless. I’m so bummed out.
I was one of the last people to see all of the people who got on that plane. They loaded everyone before they were pulled out of the hangar. We all were baffled that they had to fly in that snowstorm.
I’d be baffled too. I get that they were trying to save a life but it cost many lives.
Truth is they didn’t have to.
I worked with Scott(the pilot) in Florida. He was seen as one of the most sharpest pilots in the flight school. He is survived by his wife and 3 kids. It’s very sad to know that he died trying to help save a life. Knowing Scott and his flying knowledge I 100% would have rode in his right seat that night without any worry of this happening.
Bless all the Medevac pilots and nurses out there who faces these dangers for the safety of individuals they don’t even know.
looks like his over-confidence and bravery did him in. taking off was a bad plan in that weather.
@@jerryeinstandig7996yo Jerry, kick rocks
“…one of the most sharpest…”
Those may be nice words but words don’t fix messes like this!
Things can change very quickly!
When things spin out of control, it’s over!
@@jerryeinstandig7996 wow! You are talking clearly as someone who’s never flown IMC or probably ever flown left seat (or probably any seat except in the back) with a comment like that.
It’s likely while weather was a contributing factor, this is a uncommanded auto-pilot disconnect in a task saturated environment while operating single-pilot-IFR. It’s something that regulations and company policies should NEVER allow because in the case of a severe spatial disorientation, this pilot could have been Chuck Yeager and it wouldn’t have saved the flight without another person in the right seat.
Definitely think some of these comments are trolls
Thousands of hours flying the pc12 at night single pilot. The 45s autopilot would kickoff in even light turbulence occasionally.
I live in Reno, NV. That flight flew right over my house. This tragedy was reported within a couple of minutes after the crash over the amateur radio frequencies. Today, we heard on the amateur radio frequencies that there was an honor convoy of emergency vehicles that included law enforcement, fire vehicles, and REMSA ambulances as they passed by the Reno/Tahoe airport. The local amateur radio community holds the families and responders in our thoughts and prayers.
Yes I saw a line of LEOs and other emergency vehicles lining up at the top of the hill northbound out of Carson City today, just waiting there.
taxpayers want economy, not parades, big waste of time and resources day off for everybody, lotsa overtime pay.
@@jerryeinstandig7996 You sure make broad assumptions about a whole lot of taxpayers. An hour or so is nothing compared to what the yearly operating cost is for a department. Many departments pay wages and benefits when a person is not actively working, it's called vacation pay. I suppose we should do away with that as well.
@@jerryeinstandig7996 lmao what dude? thats their job.
I kinda agree. And I certainly hope that when I pass, the event is not worthy of any sort of "parade".
Like it or not, in the case of the fire department, we all pay those guys to sit around and eat, or do "training", most of the time. They have to be at the station while on duty, so they may as well drive around in the very expensive publicly owned apparatus every chance that they get.
The cops are another story. It's far too easy for them to claim overtime, as a course of their general duty. If they want to participate in these manner of activities, they need to do it on their own time. Including the extravagant attendance for one of their fallen "brothers".
Then we'll find out how civic-minded that a lot of these folks really are...
Regarding spatial disorientation, I was flying an army OV1 Mohawk over the Chesapeake bay at night completely IFR, with snow, low clouds when I had an electrical failure and lost all lighting and all electrical power. I utilized my minimag flashlight in my mouth to monitor what instrumentation I had remaining. trying to manage as a single pilot, I became disoriented and was seconds from ejecting when through the rain and fog, I could faintly make out the runway strobes at Andrews Air Force Base. I was able to use those strobes as my horizon reference and made a successful landing.
Wow! Incredible. How frightening to live thru that.
You were extremely fortunate indeed!!!
that's along the lines I was thinkin about thise one.... it SEEMS TO ME the pilot made a DECISION to head toward the INTERSTATE ??? MY THOUGHT was ''electrical maps out.... single pilot... wanted to fly along the interstate not across country, or was there a big cloud in front of them before they diverted to the right...?? sigh... sux, but I also agree with you, boots for ice, nope the boots are to keep your FEET WARM AND DRY not for your WINGS :) high output alternators NOT JUST BARELY ENUF TO RUN THE SYSTEMS to save a few bucks here and there... sigh...
I believe Spatial disorientation was the cause of the JFK Jr. tragedy
@smokindragn1 Yes unfortunately it was 😢
I flew N273SM out of Elko NV for 5 yrs doing single pilot air ambulance. The auto pilot in all of the Legacy PC-12's (PC-12/45) turns off, along with the Yaw Dampner, in moderate turbulance. It also pitches up slightly. It's always a surprise. Pilatus fixed that problem with the PC-12NG.
What happens when the "Yaw Dampner" runs out of water?
Yaw is a motion, left or right, not an aircraft part. DS
@@scenicbearviewing damper reduces motion, dampener makes things wet. He's being snarky about a commonly mislabeled device.
Bingo! My thoughts exactly. Especially relevant from someone who has time in the same plane.
WOW, that is incredibly relevant information. I was thinking turbulence, and icing being the deadly combination it is may be at play. That sounds like and AD issue should have been issued, and maybe will be. So sad, and looked like one of a pilot's most challenging situations. I think next bumpy day I'm going to do some hand flying IFR practice. My C414A's autopilot stays engaged in mod turb but had kicked off when it gets closer to severe....so I watch and hand fly before it does, surprises are not fun in those conditions.
I fly fixed wing for Reach and we all have to say ok to take the flight or we don’t go (3 to go, one to say no). Our pilots give us a full weather briefing at the beginning of their duty day and also prior to taking a call. Sometimes we have to get patient information prior to accepting the call (usually we don’t) depending on if turbulence may be a risk for certain patients (like unstable neck or pelvic fractures). Prayers to the families that have lost a loved one. This is another reminder that there is no routine EMS flight!
Witness reports same aircraft engine failure direct over her house and the impact after engine was heard sputtering...
@@theaustralianconundrum Doubtful. The aircraft was already above 18,000ft far Southeast of Reno. Numerous reports of icing conditions in the area.
@@avocadoflight Well they heard it and went and took photo's of the wreckage and it was mostly intact.
We do critical care ground transport and we expect to be busy when the weather gets bad.
@@theaustralianconundrum Chances are that whatever your friend saw and heard was at a point that was already well into the loss of control and rapid descent. The engine sputtering and flaming out was likely due to the steep nose down or inverted orientation causing problems with fuel flow inside the turbine. The plane probably didn’t crash because of engine difficulties. Rather the visible and audible engine difficulties occurred because of the disrupted air and fuel flow due to the loss of control.
The pilot was a really close friend of mine. Such a devastating loss.
Our thoughts and prayers are with you as well Josh.
Yes - so sorry to hear that
Sorry for your loss
Very sorry for your loss ♥️
So sorry for the loss of your good friend. Sending comfort to you and his family and other friends. When he spoke on the radio, he seemed like a very nice guy.
Completed last flight of my 54 year aviation career today training my replacement in PC12NG (single pilot ops). Piloted mostly crewed helicopters and turbojets, spent last 3 years single pilot ops in PC12. Very capable aircraft, however even with a really strong background in CRM, standardization and hundreds of simulator training events single pilot ops can be very intense and challenging. May God bless their loved ones.
If the autopilot switched off due to trim or turbulence, would the system not switch to wings level mode? I believe the G1000 in my ‘08 T182T did that.
No it wouldn’t, this PC12 is not an NG and therefore has no glass cockpit, it might have a Garmin GTN750 or GNS530 GPS but no PFD with synthetic vision …single pilot in an emergency in IMC without AP this is not an easy plane to fly
Congratulations on a career finished alive! Thank you for your service, Captain!
Things get REAL BUSY up front. Dropped my pencil once for knee board. That's all it takes at times! AP flaw? You really need AP in IMC chop. Just chop moving your head around can induce SD. Hurts to think about this stuff!
The Pilatus is a good ship and well suited for medical transportation I hope that we find the cause so we can work to prevent a repeat. Honestly, I have moved soooo many patients in my career that were perfectly fine right where they were and many times in terrible weather. However, I was always very careful not to share patient conditions with our pilots as they entered the 'fly / don't fly decision tree and usually didn't discuss it until after 'sterile cockpit' phase of climb out. I don't want >critical child< entering the picture because it skews the sense of reason in anyone with a genuine concern for life. The Crew Resource Management class changed everything in my career but the pressure to perform is still intense. Prayers for the crew, patient and families.
..
Seems like the pilots should know the patient condition well enough to decide to go/no go.
@@bendeleted9155 People will deviate from safe practice when emotion influences the decision making processes.
@@bendeleted9155 Exactly the opposite. The job of the Medivac crew is to transport a patient whenever it is possible to do so within a safety envelope determined by their equipment, flight crew capability, and the current operating environment (e.g. weather.) It may sound harsh, but the patient's condition does not change the parameters of that safety envelope, and some operations specifically do not brief the flight crew on patient status to avoid having them alter that safety envelope - even subconsciously - as a result.
It shouldn’t, but it does
Always the best reporting on this type of incidents. Saw this on the regular news and knew I would get the real and full story from Juan. His knowledge and research is always to the point. Love that we always get graphics and data. Thanks for the great work.
What I know is that money is placed in order of importance over lives. I was on search crew for the helo, only found body parts.
Your explanations are excellent. Whenever I hear/read about a plane crash, your channel is my first stop. RIP to those who perished.
As do I. Love JB's info and analysis.
As a former PC-12/45 EMS Pilot, I have operated the airplane in all 48 Contiguous States of the USA. I was the first PC-12 Check Airman in the USA and as Company Instructor, trained and checked several high time EMS Pilots. I have had numerous icing and turbulence encounters that were totally unexpected and unforecast. Turbulence was severe with 6000FPM up and down drafts no autopilot and just trying to keep wings level and then making a 180 turn. Weather radar malfunction did not paint small cell and ATC did not have anything in the area. One icing encounter was light to moderate rime with sudden severe clear icing over the top of the rime. Then the BOOTS/timer shut off while in a descent. The aircraft would only climb at 190 KIAS. Out on top at FL180 and ice did not slide off the wing until descent through 8,700 MSL. Had to manually run the boots on the one minute cycle. Found the trouble to be the pressure switch that was low by 1/4 PSI. Tail boots stopped working one time and there was 2 inches of ice back there when only 1/2 inch on wings (boots clearing it off wings). Don't try to climb in light to moderate icing unless indicating 160. DILUTION OF TRAINING: MORE AND MORE PEOPLE KNOW LESS AND LESS, UNTIL EVERYONE KNOWS NOTHING; that was an ATC saying back in the early 1980's. Yes, I was an ATCS and a Safety Inspector until retirement.
Dual pilot ops in imc ,for commercial or medievac should be mandatory!
Very sad. I live in South Meadows, about 5 miles South of Reno airport. Listened to an airliner climbing out around that time walking my dogs. Couldn't see departures. Usually pass over my place at about 3,000 to 4,000 AGL. Weather was reported at 21:15 local temp/dewpoint 30/28F, vis 1.75 miles, light snow, overcast at 1,700'. Surface wind NW at 5. Only 2 to 4" of snow on the ground. Most airline flights cancelled yesterday due to the low vis. Unable to get in. I would imagine conditions ripe for icing. Not sure of winds aloft or turbulence. But I know there were several incidents of severe turbulence last night, same weather system, and many flights diverting around the LA area. There are several PC-12's that operate medevac in and out of Reno all the time. I will say, I would not have been flying in the conditions last night in a small SE turbo-prop. Especially not if the flight was not needed to save a life. I used to fly medevac in Learjets. I remember one dark stormy night trying to get into Carson City for a patient. Gave it my best shot. But no can do. Not doing any one any favors if you rack up the airplane. Reno airport and the surrounding area can get pretty difficult. Even in an Airbus or a Boeing. I have done more than one go around or divert going into Reno in an airliner. I hope they get some answers on this one. Icing? Structural failure do to turbulence? Spatial disorientation? Cabin pressure, oxygen issue? Avionics/instrument problems? Pilot incapacitation? A terrible tragedy. RIP to all of these folks. Thanks for the report Juan. Good job. Sorry we never flew together at the airline. I am out on LTD. For the last 6 years. Jim Gillespie
I worked operations at WFS for UPS for a while at Reno Tahoe International and I can even begin to count how many times there were close calls with aircraft coming in and out of there. Many, many diversions and go arounds. Even had an incident with an A300 landing so hard, all hydraulics in rear landing gear was toast. Had to be towed backwards from the far south end of the runway back to our tarmac at the North Terminal. I myself have flown out of Reno, Stead, and Carson a handful of times on private, small aircraft. Tons of turbulence most times. Same for commercial flights I’ve flown. My instructor pilot flew out of Reno one time and crashed out by Pyramid Lake with some decent injuries. Definitely could’ve died. Also one time I was landing on a Volaris flight from Guadalajara into Reno and the turbulence was so bad, when we landed and I looked out the windows to the terminal, I see fire trucks and ambulances surrounding an American Airlines A320/321 and turns out they had it a lot worse than our flight did. Quite a few injuries. The area between Fresno, Reno, and Vegas is not to be taken lightly.
Especially during IFR, very low visibility, bad weather and severe turbulence, I never would’ve flown.
Juan Thankyou from the whole aviation industry on your relentless work on reporting!
More than anyone or any facility you are helping aviation safety wether you know it or not ! After 25000 hrs as a regional airline pilot I retired early because of safety reasons and now at 73 yrs old
With your input I see that we can help to alleviate a lot of safety problems in aviation by a lowing our voices to be heard ! Thank you for bringing the aviation community together with your expertise and voice !
Here’s my 2 cents on this accident ! Single pilot , single engine IFR , with 5 people on board is down right unsafe !
Thanx again for your talent and service to the aviation community Juan your a Night in shining armor for aviation !
Captain Mark H Wirth
We do a lot of medical lift at my company, normally the "pressure" doesn't come from the patient's health but whether or not the receiving hospital has a bed available. Those beds aren't held long and if you don't get the patient moving when you get the call, they'll move it on to someone else.
Just this week we were delayed a couple hours due to de-icing and the hospital was screeching at our dispatch that if we didn't "hurry" there would be no bed for the patient when we arrived. These medical flights are mostly pressured by hospital administration.
Same situation with us. We delayed a trip because of a line of thunderstorms from the Gulf to Canada and the patient is still waiting for a bed. We are all still alive awaiting on a bed to open up when the safe time comes. It’s a administrative issue at the sending and receiving hospitals to solve, we did our job as a flight service.
Excellent Point!!
So sick of hospital administrators and all their BS. They have ruined healthcare and hopefully all will rot in hell.
@@mtbin2 Former flight medic, but even from the ground transport perspective they don't give any kind of thought to anything; conditions where you shouldn't be driving much less flying. Middle of some blizzard and instead of waiting 4 or 8 hours they're calling on ambulances like its a sunny day in Florida.
As a pilot and ER physician I had a crew return a patient to my ER after having loaded and taxiing. The pilot did a final wing check for ice and noticed accumulating ice on wing. He taxied back unloaded the patient and returned him to my ED. The crew was apologizing when I told them I would rather have my patient back than a Tshirt with their names on it saying RIP.
As a PC12 operator, I have a few points. First, ice can form more easily in the left wing's fuel tank, blocking the motive flow ejector. This results in that wing filling up with fuel from the engine's fuel return. There is no way to transfer fuel from wing to wing. The right wing is warmed by the exhaust plume and a motive flow blockage is less likely but still possible. Prist is absolutely required. Also, the PC12 is not an all weather aircraft. It will develop ice on the de-ice boots and prop, despite working boots and prop heaters. Additionally, the aileron push pull tubes can ice up, leading to a non functional autopilot and difficulty in roll control.
Excellent points it seems.
Exhaust exits from left and right sides so why is left wing also not warmed by exhaust plume?
The exhaust spirals around the fuselage, clockwise when viewed from the cockpit, so no. Unfortunately.
Good points. I was wondering what could be potential causes that led to the accident.
i totally agree. but there are two other factors. it's tail in snow or icing conditions (the pc-12's archilles) and asymmetrical icing of wings/ailerons. there were some icing or weather related accidents in the past nobody talks about. i think the pilot did what he could to keep this bird in the air. i rule out spatial disorientation, he wasn't flying an 1950's sixpack and he added speed in a straight climb for more than 14 seconds. either he was counteracting a stuck right rudder (trim maybe) with ailerons, pulling out with full throttle or he tried to couteract partial stall on right wing (or stuck aileron) with more speed. in my theory he lost his fight, flipping over the right wing down in an immediate nose down situation. the g's knocked them out at fl132 with 140-200 kts and the opposite flightpath tells the rest of the sad story.
It always hurts my heart to hear this sort of final recording of someone’s voice. Rest in peace, everyone on that flight.
A plane full of heroes, lost. A pilot most likely trying to save someone's life, two emergency medical personnel, an injured/sick patient and a scared family member. Absolutely tragic. I'm crying. RIP to everyone. 🙏❤
Heroes don't kill four innocent people who didn't sign up for it. People who shouldn't be flying do. No heroes here.
@@MrTaffiny1stfu you lame
@@MrTaffiny1 you don’t know and weren’t there to tell them not to go I presume? Uneducated opinions are, well nvm
@@MrTaffiny1 More mean-spirited comments...
It's just another flight. We pay no attention to the patient. It clouds your judgement
Outer right wing and horizontal stabilizer separated from airframe in flight and were found as far as 3/4 of a Mile from Impact location per NTSB
Saw him go missed at Reno yesterday coming from Jordan, UT, when all the airlines were not landing, but he did on second attempt with 1/2 mile vis and heavy snow. I was driving home in the area of crash last nigh at 10pm, coming over the pass between I80 and 50 it was blowing snow 50-60mph. Autopilot could not have stayed engaged in the turbulence of that valley where he crashed. He had his hands full yesterday for sure.
Sounds like he pushed the weather a few times and got away with it.
I flew single pilot night freight in a beat-up turbopro decades ago, all in the hopes of gaining the experience to move up to the next rung of the aviation ladder. It's not for the faint of heart, and I'm sure this pilot was dutifully putting in his time as well, hoping for his big break. Godspeed fellow aviator and rest in peace to everyone onboard.
A sign above the door at Summerland Key Airport says, "There is no specific place any pilot needs to be at any particular time
I flew for 30 years as a aeromedical pilot in Australia on Kingairs, They were loaded with so much medical equipment . With a pilot doctor and nurse and down to 1900 lbs standard fuel we just didn’t have the payload to carry a second pilot. Very hard in bad weather to flight plan for alternates.
I believe if a patient is in hospital care they should not be moved until morning or until the weather improves. The scheduling people do not always agree and it’s put back to the pilot for the final decision.
💯
Juan, I use to own and pilot a PC-12/45 series. I have flown through rough weather and snow/ice. I loved the plane despite a few shortcomings. Frankly I am very perplexed by this loss. Several possible trigger elements come to mind... 1) the autopilot clicks off on moderate turbulence. Compared to other planes I have flown, the 45 series had a very low 'off' threshold. 2) the pressurization is somewhat manual in the 45 series. One time I i missed the checklist item to flip the switch... the good news is the CAWS light will come on above 14,000 or so. Could the plane not have been pressurized? 3) these planes definitely have one AHRS but a second one was optional. Standard 'steam' gauges were the back up. If it only has one AHRS could the AHRS have failed? 4) I flew from Las Vegas (in snow) to San Jose. Cruising at FL240. The OAT was >-50C... my boot CAWS warning light came on telling me the boots were not working. After on ground checks, I learned that CAWS light is triggered by a change of pressure (i.e. a puncture). What happened on my plane to trigger it was, I was out of spec (~>-50C) on the outside temperatures and the orifice iced up a bit and changed the pressure, triggering the CAWS warning light. Why I bring this up? It was a very cold night, the pilot could have had several CAWS lights plus an uncooperative AP. Needless to say, very, very sad for all involved.
All the more reason for a proper CREW to help sort it all out.... excellent comments Thanks Hans!
So he was unqualified for the flight? Got it.
@@MrTaffiny1 you really understand nothing.
@@MrTaffiny1 crew=more than 2>1
@@MrTaffiny1 The aircraft broke up. The pilot was qualified.
We had a written policy requiring us to blind the pilots as to the nature and urgency of the flight.
A flight request would consist of “request flight, location A to location B, # of souls, cabin altitude requested, estimated time until aircraft loaded.”
That's a CAMTS standard isn't it
@@perryrush6563 we weren’t CAMTS, but it was based on it, I believe.
Is that for HIPAA compliance, or billing assurance?
@@bendeleted9155 It's so that the pilots' safety mindset and decision making process is not altered by the status of the patient's condition.
It's all about the Benjamins.
Thank you for covering this. This morning we saw this come over the news. The weather here was too great last night. I can’t imagine flying in it.
Yes, it was blizzard conditions.
Can’t believe they even took off, conditions were terrible last night here in Reno. I know a lot of commercial flights were canceled due to the weather.
A quick note about groundspeed "errors" when the descent rate is this high. Every 100 feet per minute of climb or descent is about 1 knot, therefore a descent rate of 20,000 feet per minute equates to about 200 knots vertical speed. We don't usually think in those units, but that's what it is. If the airplane in that descent is also going across the ground at 200 knots, simply Pythagorean math would indicate a true airspeed on the order of 280 knots. My point isn't to crunch exact numbers, but to point out that when the descent rate is high, the airspeed is much higher than the groundspeed would appear to indicate. [Note -- since I am a current FAA air traffic controller, I hereby note that my view are my own, and do not reflect official U.S. government policy or opinion]
As a non pilot I can understand how one could become confused when the sky and ground are both black and/or white (as in a cloud) but how does this happen when the pilot should be watching and trusting his instruments and NOT his senses?
280 knots is the max cruise speed of the PC-12 and shouldn't lead to a disintegration of the airframe.
If you are going straight down your ground speed would be zero!
I hereby note that my view is my own and is correct.
Foe sure he would have had a lot of speed, it is a very strong aircraft but anything can break with enough stress, turbulence at high speed and G from the turn would have increased chance something breaking. Spatial disorientation is more likely in strong turbulence, ask me how I know.
Doing a quick net search I found a page that said the PC-12's never exceed speed is 240 knots indicated air speed. I don't know if that's right or not but depending on altitude 280 knots true airspeed would break that. But that all happened after the loss of control anyways. Icing, spacial D or pilot incapacitation or something like that probably caused the loss of control.
Sir, I have been a Flight Nurse since 2004. I am a current flight nurse for Guardian Flight, and I turned to your channel for an explanation about this crash because you provided the most information about our crash in Hawaii.
This is a horrible tragedy and I appreciate your honest and open assessment.
Kelli, your the best flight nurse I have ever had the privilege to fly with!
I flew a test flight on one of the first PC12s delivered to Flying Doctors Australia about 1995. As part of that test we did a 20,000 ft emergency controlled descent and it was scary. So imagine this under uncontrolled conditions and in IMC. Condolence to the family and friends of all who perished in this tragedy.
As a former helicopter pilot for Flight for life out of St. Anthony's hospital, Denver Colorado for 13 years I would always tell new pilots the three most important things to remember; Know the aircraft's limitations, know your limitations and most importantly know when to say no!
The worst ice is usually found in cloud tops in the upper teens and low 20s. I’d be shocked if ice didn’t play a major role in this accident.
100% that and or a pressurization issue.
Absolutely!
Agree
I can't imagine if it were ice or pressurization that a call to ATC wouldn't have been made. It's a natural thing to do. Last comm was checking on with NorCal.
@@cloudyifr if it was a pressurization issue he was probably incapacitated or not cognizant of what was happening.
I'm not a pilot, and I don't know a lot about what may have happened. But my family has benefited from the professionalism, dedication, and care these people demonstrate. They save lives and frequently risk their own to do it. My thoughts and prayers are with all who lost their lives and for all whose lives they touched.
Same. I was med flight to a better and bigger hospital because they were losing me and didn't have the right staff on hand. Driving the route would have been 1 hour drive. I more likely would not have survived if it wasn't for being flown in by medics and helicopter.
Well, it’s similar situation like with Kobe Bryant with the difference that this pilot was IFR (instrument flight rated) so he must have passed every six months a similar situation test. But anyway, the spatial disorientation is very strong, and you should just trust the instruments but similarity to Kobe accident that you should have flown with two pilots, not as a sole pilot operation especially when the conditions are let’s say “in the limits”. What wonders me, is this “saving costs” in the both cases. For example, Kobe’s Sikorsky is flown in other county ríe with two pilots in all circumstances, so why 600 Million $ worth of guy is compromising in the safety?
Oh, forgot to add that my cousin who is a helipilot, said very shortly about Kobe accident: “Dumbass pilot lost it in the fog”…..cruel, but true. Military pilots train so much in the similar conditions and they say it’s almost irresistible feeling that your inner ear tells you that you are going straight but instruments tell you something else.
Yes, 'NoNames' but at what cost? Trying to save one life led to 5 dying. and these Medi Vacs have gone down quite a bit in and around Reno in bad weather conditions...Like Juan preaches, wait for better weather in the A.M.
I have flown on this very plane. Medical flight to Stanford 3 years ago. The aircraft looked and felt new or well kept. I dont recall any issues, in fact it was an awesome flight, considering my then terminal condition…I have pics of my being loaded into plane with tail registration clearly visible.
Glad you are still with us Marc
@@ToddDunningThanks Todd! I Actually had an MRI earlier in the week, No sign of cancer remaining! (Rare form of Liver cancer, Klatskins Tumor) 3 years since surgery...
As if you needed ANOTHER reminder of mortality...
Glad the terminal part didn't happen!
@@SteamCrane Honestly, I had some of the best surgeons in the World, at Stanford University. They only get a few cases like mine a year, and they usually dont make it.
It's hell driving in these snow storms I can't imagine flying in one. Trying to keep oriented in 3-D space in a white out - Damn. Prayers to all the families impacted by this tragedy.
Flying in a snowstorm is wildly easier than driving in one.
Thank you JB for being just a great communicator and genuinely nice and positive person. Sad outcome and a salute to the fallen.
Thank you for your thorough report on this tragedy. This one brought me to actual tears, I mean, all of the crash reports sadden me, but this one; what more can I say. There are so many reasons why someone would need to move from one excellent hospital to another. For example, my brother had to be moved to the University of Penn hospital because the hospital that was treating him in Maryland for bacterial spinal meningitis had an equipment failure. That move saved his life. I truly hope that the pilot and crew that went down on that Guardian Flight were not called to duty for a trivial purpose. God bless and keep you safe, and may you be MY pilot on my next flight, God willing.
Juan thank you for your accurate reporting of this tragic event. Let’s all pray for the families involved. Rest In Peace to all on the flight.
Thank you for getting this out to us so soon.
I was an intercontinental "road warrior" for 30 years, and am now very content to be on the ground !!
Preach to me !!!
me too.
I'm so sorry for this loss to your pilot community. Thank you for all you do.
Juan, you do a fantastic job explaining these events. Spatial disorientation is a weird sensation, I remember during my instrument training my instructor would have me put my head down and close my eyes. He would then put the plane into some sort of configuration other than straight and level flight, then give me the aircraft and tell me to recover to straight and level. Many times what I thought the plane was doing was not correct. The saying, always trust your instruments is true, however, I understand how long days or being tired can make you think otherwise. I’m sorry for the loss of these five people, may they RIP. 🙏
Thank you for putting these videos together. For pilots, they will all make us better at the craft.
Thanks as always for your respectful insight. Was watching some departures out of RNO last night...terrible news to wake up to. RIP to all that lost their lives.
Here in Ontario our pilots (2 pilot operation) are asked by dispatch to weather check a call before the flight paramedics get any sort of patient information. This keeps the pilots focused on simply if the weather is safe to fly in or not. The ultimate decision is the captain's and there is no questioning a decline by dispatch.
Only once they accept a call are the medics briefed on the patients condition.
Pilots are also paid by the hour regardless if they fly or not, removing the incentive to "just giver a go and see".
Pilots here are not told about the patient. You accept the flight without consideration of the patient.
Also, they are paid by hours on shift. Not by flight hour.
I've been stuck here in Reno in a semi truck since Wednesday. My last delivery was up in South lake Tahoe. I had to wait for the roads to clear to get up there. I was able to get up there today. If you're saying this accident happened last night and they took off from the Reno airport?? Well I can tell you this much.. It was snowing so hard last night down here in Reno that it was almost a whiteout condition. And I can tell you it was snowing just as hard all the way south down towards Carson City. Also the snow coming down was really wet but the surface temperature was really cold and I can tell you it was leaving black ice under the snow on the roads. So he could have also had a major ice buildup that the airplane couldn't get rid of. And what's the hospitals last night wouldn't have been able to transport to salt lake City because i-80 was just a total mess with black ice on the road and all that stuff. I was watching traffic on the 395 and they were moving maybe two to three miles per hour.
Today, Sunday, a 36 car pileup on I580 in Reno. Another 3 day snow storm starting tomorrow. Blizzard warning for lake Tahoe
@@westsparks6844
Yep and hopefully I can get a load tomorrow and I'll probably head all the way over to 93 and cut up through Boise to get back to Seattle area. Sucks being stuck up here since Wednesday living in an 8x8 jail cell on wheels.
Thank you for covering this incident so well Juan. Typically, with emergency helicopter med evac flights, the crew is initially only told that they have a mission with no details of the mission. The crew then makes the decision to accept the mission or refuse it based solely on the weather conditions risk assessment. Only after they accept the mission do they then get the details.
I don't know if the fixed wing med evac crews operate the same way or not.
I fly fixed wing for Reach on Reach 50 out of Redding, CA and we do have a full weather briefing with the pilot before accepting the mission. We need to know things like the amount of turbulence we may encounter in case of someone with an unstable neck fracture, unstable pelvic fracture, etc which may be exacerbated in turbulent conditions.
My neighbors daily driver is a PC-12 NG. Such a shame. What a beautiful series of airplanes and so sad for the folks lost.
I have flown SIC in a PC 12 and was always concerned about the workload in a single pilot operation. It is an amazing airplane to fly. I too agree that these operators must have two pilots.
Can’t you plug the departure into autopilot?
I was shocked upon hearing *single* pilot, and in the current conditions. Not acceptable unless valid risk vs reward and all personnel are able to decide without ramifications. RIP all, so tragic and unnecessary. Need regulations for two pilots. Writing my congresspeople, although most of them so far up on corp lobby $, nothing will change.
absoultely. I don't know what kind of avionics were in the a/c, but some of those small Garmin units have tiny buttons and nested menus that are difficult to use in day VFR.
@@saboabbas123 It’s 2002 production, so unless there was a complete avionics retrofit, this would be a very demanding aircraft to fly as a single pilot. Idk the single-pilot usability of the Honeywell Apex avionics in the newer PC-12s but the G3000 on the new TBMs makes single-pilot operation very doable, and with synthetic vision it’s easier to maintain spatial awareness.
I’m still a PPL and not instrument rated but in instrument training. My first two instrument approaches (one in IMC & the other using view limiting devices) were a mess. I was task overloaded. When I heard he got lost on the taxi that was a sign of bad things to come. I also flew on fixed & rotor wing medevac aircraft as a flight paramedic. It was always 3 to go & 2 to say no. And the hospital (unless it was a rural hospital) was always a better & more stable place for a patient than an aircraft in severe weather. Rest easy to these people.
Thank you Juan for doing such great coverage on aviation issues, Paul in Orlando, FL.....
Thanks for covering this Juan. Close to home.
With regard to the urgency to move the patient, it's possible it was for transplant, where you typically have only a couple of hours once notified an organ is available and minutes can make a difference in outcome.
Well lets hope that the medical or family people involved will explain what the rush was for this transfer, as it certainly put a good crew at risk.
Thanks Juan. Absolutely heartbreaking- there has been a good run in GA lately, but sadly that seems to have turned a corner.
Prior to my airline career in the early 80’s, I did literally dozens, maybe even over a hundred medevac flights usually in a Cheyenne III, which was always single pilot, very often at night, and very often in IMC.
Spatial disorientation can bite VERY hard, and VERY quickly. It takes incredible concentration on the part of the pilot to overcome it, and use of autopilot (if you have one) is obviously your best option. I wonder if the autopilot disconnected unexpectedly and then he was caught unaware until it was too late? So sad. 😢
Excellent report, Mr. Brown. (As usual.) Thank you for doing this. All airline crashes are horrible, but for some reason, a medical flight seems just that much worse. So, so sad. Condolences to all involved.
The sever weather your having is headline news in Australia. I'm not sure why smaller aircraft are flying in such conditions even in emergency response. The workload going on with this pilot would have been huge considering the night flying and severe icing winter weather. With the turns leading up to the crash area thats only going to make disorientation worse or at least set up the perfect conditions for it.
An IFR-rated pilot should be able to handle a few simple turns in IFR/IMC. Far from rocket science.
@@pistonburner6448 then why do we keep seeing that they aren't capable?
@@pistonburner6448 yeah yeah. ice, snow, wind, at night.
@@bradsanders407 Because they are passed, they get the rating without really being competent. They train for the test, are taught to pass the test. And the test doesn't test them well enough.
So many pilots are incompetent. So many fail at basic flying skills, have no real feel or understanding of flying. It's a career move, a way to satisfy their ego, to make money, to get social standing. And the defective system wants to pass them before they are really capable, those who don't have "flying in their backbone" are passed even though they shouldn't.
That's why if I'd ever be in charge of hiring pilots, I'd only hire those who fly as a hobby, and not just repeating circuits in a Cessna 172 but something dynamic.
@@mvd4436 Ice on the ground doesn't affect flying. Seeing snow through the window doesn't affect flying. Wind only affects flying in extreme circumstances, and certainly doesn't bring down a Pilatus like that. The night definitely doesn't bring down planes.
I worked at Renown in the Trauma ICU in the past. I agree that there are few situations I can think of that would require emergent transport to SLC. Renown is more than capable of handling almost anything medically. This was most likely a needless tragedy. Especially if the conditions were known.
Also UC Davis / Bay Area trauma center are much closer. Why go 550 miles to Salt Lake?
Burns. the Regional Burn unit is in SLC.
@@randallthomas5207 Good point.
You’re correct. It was non-life threatening. Husband’s cousin is best friends with the children of the patient on board.
We always had two pilots flying us whether it was a helicopter or fixed wing and that is how every medical flight should be handled period. After I left the emergency medical field the hospital we worked out of dropped the company that had been supplying our helicopter service and went with their own single pilot they had a fatal crash one month later killing the pilot and flight nurse the medic lived but was seriously injured and went on full disability. Thoughts and prayers to families of those that perished.
Good insights, thank you.
In my career, Two Pilot Twin Engine Operations was the minimum standard.
IFR at night, marginal conditions, Medivac with a SINGLE PILOT is unconscionable.
This is simply not accepted in the Offshore Oil & Gas Regions (high operational risk to personnel), so why are Health Authorities allowing such Medivac practices?
And yes, for the naysayers towards losing access to smaller communities, with smaller aircraft, that is why the Standards can provide a more consistent risk profile from VFR Single Pilot up to IFR Night Weather Limited Dual Pilot (with a special notation for current proficiency) and some variations in-between.
Bingo! It should mandatory, either by FAA reg or company policy, that these types of operations be conducted with two pilots.
Who do you fly for! To my knowledge there is only two companies that fly two pilots air medical in the US - one out of Montana and one in Oregon (Mercy flights - whom I fly for). Thanks! Sincerely, a critical care flight medic/nurse :)
@@beauxbrasseur it was lifeflight out of Cleveland Ohio. Helicopters where from PHI out of Louisiana. Used to be S76 they have since gone with Bk helicopters. Planes where out of Pittsburgh and I believe they were Kalitta air service.
Plenty of dual pilot ops have flown into the ground.
Great update Juan. So sad to hear of this accident. Cheers from CYYB
right outside of stagecoach, brutal stuff. thanks for sharing B.
I just flew the same route in a TBM 930 yet with current weather I got above the clouds approx 10,000 ft
Flew the KA200 for Medevac today and have 800 in the PC-12/45 single pilot (guardian) and I never really liked the pusher shaker and dual electric trims on the PC-12 just sayin. Prayers for everyone 🙏 and thank you for covering this, it really hits home for a lot of us.
Almost all the flights out of Reno were canceled Thursday and Friday, surprised this aircraft got off the ground. Reno is almost always turbulent in normal weather(I live in Truckee, and fly out of Reno almost exclusively), if flights are being cancelled at reno then you know it’s bad! This storm was a doozy. I’m curious how bad of a medical emergency the patient on the plane had. Renown Hospital is legit and can handle almost anything, especially keeping a patient stable to the next day when the weather is much more agreeable.
Very sad situation, thank you Juan for your insightful analysis. I hope you keep us updated.
I second that, Juan - prayers for everyone close to those lost, and R.I.P to pax and crew. I have the exact same question.
As a former large EMS ambulance operations director, it always breaks my heart when an EMS flight causes harm. Juan, as you have pointed out previously, the single pilot EMS operations are at high risk for limited inputs on "go / no go." Did I understand the plane was going up and down before the variation off of the IFR autopilot track? Great reporting, we look forward to more information as it becomes available. R.I.P. all.
That's the question why was this mission flown in such bad weather single pilot at night? What a tragedy if it turns out they could have flown out it the morning and this was a decision based on the other but keeping the patient alive. Thanks for all you do Juan and yes prayers to all the families involved!
Was also thinking the same….why was the airport open? Many red flags even before departure.
RIP to all and 🙏🏼🙏🏼🙏🏼 to their families
Flew into icing many years ago into the mountains. Military mission, icing occurred so fast it was amazing. Luckily we got out of the icing layer and back down without incident. Happens quick.
@@mda1501 Mountain flying, with turbulence and icing is a very dangerous combination.
Love you Jason, God is with you.
Thank you for explaining to us, Juan
My condolences to the family and friends of each passenger!
Juan, as always, great stuff. I’m from Amarillo, where a local medevac company lost a Pilatus and crew several years back. One of the things that seems common with medevac crews is that any crew member can turn down a flight for any reason. Generally, weather is that reason. When the snow is so bad that you can’t negotiate the taxiways, it isn’t a good night to fly.
I think that he had the autopilot engaged for the SID, and like you said, it became disengaged, perhaps due to turbulence or low speed from the ice accumulation. I don’t think he even knew that the AP kicked off until he stalled. That’s a hard recovery to make, at night, in the soup, and in rapid stall/spin.
You can’t stall at 185 knots. Looks more like a high g spiral dive. With the high g the pilot thought he was climbing.
@@scenicbearviewing - my thoughts exactly
@@scenicbearviewing I’m not arguing with your analysis, but you can stall at any airspeed.
@@bittnerbs Unless it’s an aerobatic airplane you are going to run out of elevator authority. 185 knots is above the maneuvering speed so if you pull to full deflection you can pull the wings off. Under the maneuvering speed the wing will stall before structural damage. So your thoughts are wrong.
@@bittnerbs I dare you to go up in a PC-12 and try to do a stall at 200 knots.
You do such a great job sir. I've been watching you ever since the Orville Dam. Prayers to the families in this tragic event.
Thanks Juan. Stay safe out here!
Bless the Crew, Passengers and all their Families! So Tragic! 🙏🙏
How terribly sad! I'm so sad for everyone involved! Pilot,nurse,patient,family everyone! My sincere condolences to the families involved.
2/25/23; thx Juan for another educational presentation. Great to see the SID & altitude info as flight progressed. Bingo> problem > on that right turn, then left turn back to track then...something went very wrong... just horrible to see this compounded by ATC's calling out to a/c...but no response. Juan you asked correct question, just what was sooo medically urgent to fly this person out at 9pm on a difficult IFR Snow/blizzard evening. Early comments about finding the taxiway due to snow was ...kinda bad omen. Thx again Jusn for your detailed capture of both radio commentary & top-down view of track/path of this Med-evac. Your pics & mouse-arrow pointer showing de-iceing equip on wings, tail, pito tube & prop blade root of this a/c looked like it was top notch. Hope NTSB can give us reasons why this super equipped a/c crashed. Prayers to everyone & family of those lost. Another great info/education video Juan. Good job sir!👍👍👍👏👏
Condolences to friends and family.
Comprehensive and clear.
Thank you Captain, for giving us your expert opinion on this tragic accident. I wish they had waited for better weather for this trip. Get there itis or pressure on the pilot for his job.
Beautiful view from you headquarters there. ☃️❄️
Without more information, it may have been critical to fly because of the condition of the patient.
@@alphakky There's no such thing. First, do no harm.
@@alphakky The pilot has the ultimate responsibility, he is flying the plane. Now 4 Families are suffering. I did discuss this with my husband and that was his first reaction as a physician, but like I said the conditions were horrific. Thank you for your comment. Have a nice evening.
This comment is for Mark Newton john
I flew the exact same model of aircraft single pilot 135 but we typically had an SIC unless an owner or customer wanted to be cheap. I've never understood sacrificing safety and/or redundancy for the cost of a second pilot in this type of operation.
Oneness again the best coverage out there,thanks again
I live 1 mi from RNO. Was out side taking a walk in the snow at 9pm and commented “wow surprised they’re taking off tonight” was a very heavy snow with a low ceiling.
Excellent analysis of this tragedy. RIP .
Condolences to the families. These flights should
have 2 pilots...
I would like to say that turbulence is the factor, along with IMC, and night.
I never see snow and this view is simply beautiful, Juan!
Prayers go out to all involved
Looks to be a classic graveyard spiral descent into terrain. Thank you for your amazing reporting.
Thanks again Juan for another excellent initial evaluation of this tragic event. So many 'Why's' on this one, beginning with the primary, the weather conditions. RIP to fellow pilot and passengers, and comfort to their loved ones. Can't help but think that possibility of someone or something was jolted with turbulance and began this senario. I expect someone was seated in the copilot seat. Aviate, Navigate, Communicate.
Juan, I remember feeling very alone at night, IMC, heavy rain, pitot static unreliable, etc. (Watsonville). It worked out.
I once met a pilot who flies donor organs around Europe single-pilot in a Cessna Caravan. These flights always are very urgent because the organs in question cannot tolerate being out of a living person for very long. I am sure there are equally urgent cases involving whole persons as opposed to just bits of dead people.
it sounded like an interesting job: He goes point-to-point from smallish airports to pick up and drop off his freight. Usually all alone. And with just a cooler strapped into a seat for payload he flies very light.
My condolences to all the families - friends- co workers of the people killed in the crash.
RIP 5 fatalities, condolences to families and friends , Thank you the report on this tragic accident.
Thank you for your report, RB, Nova Scotia.
Sincere condolences.
Just watched the update.
Spot on as always Juan.
Totally heartbreaking that 5 lives are gone needlessly. This was a no-go situation from the start, with trouble maneuvering the taxiway because of the conditions. Situational awareness is one thing, not depending on the instruments is another. Such a well equipt plane must have been overcome by the conditions it was exposed to.
It was overcome by the pilot, most likely.
A bit of snow on the taxiway covering up recognizable features making it hard to see the turning point doesn’t have any effect on a flight.
A PC-12 can handle a bit of snow and turbulence easily, and there are no taxiways to get covered by snow in the air.
An IFR-incompetent pilot can drop a plane out of the sky in any conditions at night or even in a cloud.
Could be hypoxia
Um, with all due respect, you're flapping your gums a bit prematurely. Using a phrase such as "must have"... It looks to me more likely pilot error, but I am not saying it "must have been".
No go?
Conditions were fine for flying.
Pilot error seems to be the issue here.
Juan, if you’re interested in the accuracy of the ADSB data, you can find accuracy statistics at the bottom of the left-side information panel below all the other flight statistics. You’ll have to scroll down within the panel to see it or you can zoom your browser window out and all the info will fit inside the visible portion of the panel without scrolling.
God bless You and Dan for bringing these tragedies to light. When enough people care about these things there will be change !:-) 🙏
I was flying home from Denver to Reno that evening. We landed around the 10:15-10:30 pm time frame approaching from the south through Carson City. I can tell you the turbulence on approach was probably the 2nd worst I've experienced in my life time. We were in a 737 so I can only imagine what that other plane went through.