$1M Engine Upgrade to a Pilatus PC12 - Was it Worth It?
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- Опубликовано: 29 сен 2024
- Was spending near $1M dollars to upgrade a motor worth the hassle? Mark talks real world numbers and gives his take on it.
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Great information. The low down is apples to apples, not the oranges, bananas, or pineapples... Time speed, temperature, altitude...and most important Fuel burn per setting... The added value and of safety and ease of operation as you point out is "Priceless"... Thanks Mike to all of us gearhead airplane numbers pilots out there... We devour POA for the gold in them...
As an FAA Certified pilot and A&P Technician all of Mark;s explanation makes sense.
I did watch Mark's vid but it's great to see you add one. Thanks Mikey!
Not that I understood everything but what I understood sounds awesome. Glad the results that you are getting is making the most sense. But I don't expect Mark and you doing anything without looking at the numbers. Numbers can lie if not use by the right person. But they can tell stories and prove things that estimates can never tell you. Great job guys.
fresh wax job helps you as well. and protecting the boots with age master really helps, You can resell the old engine, you have no bulletins to go or be having to do soon on a legacy engine if you can get parts my friend said
As a person who isnt really into aviation (i mean I do watch this channel and find it very interesting but that’s about the extent of my interest) and didnt even know what a Pilatus is until a week or so ago, I still really enjoyed this video. I guess I just really like numbers.
I worked on Pc12's for 12 years great aircraft.
Oh dang, ill have to keep an eye out for a bunch of 💪's being thrown around next time I'm working in Galvestoon!
I can't remember his name but I'm subscribed to a guy who was a A&P at Surf Air. He said their pilots always preferred flying the Legacy birds over the NGs because they were quicker. He said even though the NGs had a more powerful engine it was negated by the heft of that Honeywell Primus and all its videocards.....(Which he showed are located underneath the cabin floor by the way lol)
He always said the NG motor in the Legacy bird would be a hot rod!!!
I love seeing Mark so excited for the second time to watch him explain P vs B
Oh good. It wasn't just me watching it again. haha!
It took me far too long to realize I'd already seen this...
That was a ONE MILLION explanation.
Thanks Mark/Mike!! I'm a big nerd so I listened to ever word and loved it! I could have 1k questions, but the big one is, why not go to a PC24? It's PC12 based, still STOL and single pilot, but does everything even faster/better than the new motor! The PC12 resale value is excellent, factor in the 1M upgrade and it's not that much more considering what you get!?! I believe it's even more FADEC and has auto-throttles to! The climb and cruse is faster also!?! Great video, thanks much!! 8) --gary
Glad THIS PC12 is okay and everyone is safe. Sad about crash in Vegas
Chock full of info and easy to understand (for a non-pilot like me). Nice vid indeed.
The extra 200hp during the climb is more than the entire output of the PA28 we train in :)
Not a big maths man myself, but that sound pretty darn good.
Awesome fact filled video....Thank You!
I haven't found a need to fly a private plane, so I'm pretty relaxed and my workload is literally zero. Fun to hear the numbers though.
i need none of this info, but i like people that explain well, and stuff that makes sense.
An aft CG will always gain you a couple of knots compared to a forward CG in general aviation aircraft. In my Cessna 182, I gain two knots. I flew MD-11's for a living and the fuel savings for an aft cg were impressive compared to a forward cg. Blue skys!
Good Saturday morning!
I will never own such an expensive airplane, but all of this is great information. No matter what you guys talk about, it’s still fascinating.
love what you've done w/ the aircraft ! I cant believe you didn't put on a 5 blade ? CAVU in all you do !
All the Numbers, what altitude was the Coffin Corner with the new engine? Max Altitude, where you push forward on Stick and go down. Pull back on the Stick and go down?
It Never gets there. The PC12 is limited to 30,000 feet.
I know you have a lot of disclaimers about this being a boring video but I don’t have any experience as a pilot but I love the PC-12. You make some things that might not be so exciting pretty interesting
Dude, you do aviation content. If people weren't interested they wouldn't be here. Are we going to see a cockpit video of the new climb and cruise performance? I'd like to see that. And... is there a Hartzell 5 bladed prop in the near future? It seems like spoiling the ship for a ha'p'orth of tar to have done all this and not upgraded the prop too?
Is that price with you and Mike performing the work or a service center? Figure yall would be the installers but curious if there were any price install differences with the motor. Tough to beat the Pilatus all around.
Mike, it's all great that you and Mark have well earned and deserve all your achievements and financial successes. You both have made great companies and engineered and designed many awesome things. It is always fun and interesting to watch aircraft builds, engine swaps, and amazing home and pool engineering and construction. I am also happy to know you spend your money here in America and not to make war and endless killing like our corporate owned government.
I am just an average person interested in airplanes and engineering and creative builds. I just wish money and affluence could be left in your personal books. I know how expensive it is to do the things you do and am grateful you earned the means to do those things. I miss your videos of the actual work of making the things you both do, and the demonstrations on how you make them.
Sorry for this bit of a rant, but with everything going on these days I guess I am feeling a general sense of disappointment and frustration about our country and all the destruction right here in our own cities from poor infrastructure, and also the warmongering going by our own oligarchal government.
Great vid. Question you said 4hours out and 5 hours back to go to your other home. Why does it take 1hout longer to come back vrs go to???
Winds are predominantly out of the west.
Very well presented! Love your videos!
That was good!
$57,000 per knot improvement... whooosh! ;-)
Was it worth it! ? Mike I can't afford to upgrade the batteries in my TV remote. A million dollar engine upgrade being worth it.. simple question would be was it needed. If it was needed then yup it's worth it
Treated well, the original engine will go 6000 hours without any drama, even more for that matter. Are you not able to extend overhaul intervals in the good ole US of A?
Lies!!! I know nothing about the pilatus and its engines and i still liked the video!
What was (will be) the residual value of the bravo engine. It will be worth something to someone (after its overhaul),.... or was the old motor part of the buying deal ?
if the 2nd overhaul is twice the cost of the 1st, is the 3rd more inline with the cost of the 1st? or would it remain at the level of the 2nd or maybe a different figure due to a different standard of parts inspection/replacement? i'm curious being an auto mechanic looking over the fence at A&P tech's, but the question could be relevant to someone who has already done a 2nd overhaul
3rd overhaul in most cases are more expensive because there are rotating components that have cycle limits and depending on the engine build spec will cycle out 3rd run and will add a considerable amount to the cost of the overhaul. That’s why most people upgrade , the cost to overhaul becomes closer to buying an new engine . And the 1 million is an exchange price not outright. I hope this helps
Couple of suggestions;
If you can't manage power settings in a single turboprop while yapping with ATC, it's time to set another pilot beside you.
Also, do yourself a favour and hire some bright young lass or lad to fly with you, you guys are prime candidates for cardiac or lacunar infarct (just because you're white, American, and of a certain age).
I'm still flying commercially at 68 and the only things I'll fly around solo is freight.
If you can get more time out of it its worth it?
Just thinking, listening to your justification numbers, you didn’t figure the cost of losing 500 hrs before TBO.
Are your wives identical twins also? BTW, excellent video, love numbers.
I tried!! Above my pay grade! LOL
Don’t care about any of those specific things, still watched
I love ppl talking about $1M as if nothing for a motor. That is my net worth. Ha ha. I have zero jealousy and feel rich in the Lord and all the blessings I have, including my Lyc 0360 powered RV7. I love numbers as an engineer and airline pilot.... The upgrade was worth it? If you have the money yes. It definitely added performance and resale value. Q: Is that a $1M including trade in for original PT6? Considering a full PT6 overhaul is $460K flat rate, (could be less), $1M for a NEW PT6 with higher thermal limits is pretty good. Aviation to save $1M you have to spend $5 million. Ha ha. Planes do not fly with LIFT and THRUST.... They fly with $$$$$$$$$.
460 flat rate overhaul will not happen.
@stephandelaat who are you? Won't happen? Ha ha. $460K is not 460. Punctuation matters. That is $460,000 and it is high. It can be done for less. I talked to P&W Canada. I worked for P&W military engines in CT as an engineer. Ala Cart overhaul with minimal parts replaced is less if the PT6 is in good condition, well-maintained and properly operated. Does not include prop overhaul. I just looked it up. Do research before you open your mouth.
@@gmcjetpilot I sell PT6A maintenance and in can tell you an all inclusive (oem approved) flat rate overhaul for 67B at 460k can not be done. 460k is probably closer to the average 67B overhaul price. They can end up at 600k or even higher.
@@stephandelaat What is it? Can or can't be done for $460K? You contradicted yourself. Did you think I said 460 dollars? Ha ha. If you have a crack in combustor or turbine cost can go way up. I have 35 yrs in turbine aircraft cert, maintenance and operations, mechanical engineer, ATP with 6 types. If you can (apparently) buy a new PT6 for $1M (M means million) then yes you can get an overhaul for much less. Your Apology to me accepted.
Engine not a motor.
Mike, of course it was worth it. You two already engineered that decision to death I’m sure before dropping the 1M. Love you guys, get back to work!😂
Great to have an excellent, no BS, presentation to start a Saturday morning! Thank you, Mark😊
These numbers will never enter into anything I do in this lifetime. But I'm watching this for the second time. I watched Mark's video. But no matter I just love to listen to you guys talk about your airplanes.
PC12 is a dream airplane, hopefully in my future!
It’s very interesting to learn what it cost to fly your anirplanes and how and why you do what you do. There are not many people out there that can tell of your experiences without leaving a “better than thou” feeling in your messages. You and Mike are over the top in what you do and then to explain it to us viewers, who will never fly airplanes like you do, how you get it done is beautiful. I very much enjoyed my flying days in the Beech Sundowner, I can only imagine what it like to fly one of your airplanes. Thank you for taking the time to share your experiences with your viewers. Flying is flying, some fly jets, some fly ultralights, and some fly all the stuff in between. It’s all about the love of airplanes and flying.
From Missouri, Jack
Will never own something this nice and will probably never fulfill my dream of owning a plane period and yet found this video captivating!
Great job Mark.
12:45 - And I'm having a tough time with the cost of a new timing belt for my car...
Mike, please watch the latest accident update, the update, not just the report of the Pilatus PC-12 in flight breakup .
In my opinion the breakup was caused by rotational flutter of the vertical stabilizer, with the separation oh the horizontal stabilizer .
Flutter depends on true airspeed not IAS, At altitude that is the case , Remember the redline speed , VNE is always given in CAS ~ IAS with a margin about 15% below the design limit, also CAS. At 18000 feet TAS is 33% higher than IAS. You are then exceeding the flutter inception speed by 18% when flying at VNE, all the structural margins are lost
Since your TAS is increased considerably at altitude with the new engine, your probability of encountering flutter are increased even if flown 20% below VNE.
Personal experience with HB-YBI, designed by Bircher , EFF 'Prometheus' where I did the structural analysis and flight test.
Watch Blancolirio's recent update and my comments.
At 22000 feet the TAS is 1.41 × IAS
at 33000, where I used to fly,
TAS is 1.73 × IAS
your CAS defined redline is no protection against TAS dependent flutter.
Do not descend at high IAS at altitude, think about it .
The built in margin in VNE is eliminated at 9000 feet against flutter.
Just to mention : Pilatus is the name of a Mountain near by, where a cable car leads up to the peak of ( peeh laa tus )
14:00 A TBO every 3500 hrs. At how many hours is the PT6A-67P (?) engine end of life? New engine more hours before end of life.
So, $1MM for 16.5 knots more and 7 minutes faster to alt.? Lol. I’m good.
Faster AND less workload? Can't beat that! Plus I'm sure you can be off the runway & clearing obstacles quicker, too. Probably not as much of a factor out West as it is up here in the Northeast with trees and wires everywhere, but still an added bonus nonetheless! Thanks for the breakdown, Mark. I love that aircraft!! 👍😎👍
15:30 So why the engine swap now instead of waiting till the TBO was due in another 500 hours? Would this had made better use of the remaining 86K of the 600K of your last TBO?
I'm a Cessna guy. Those stats are WAY outta my league!
Completely out of my league on all fronts, but very interesting none-the-less. It astonishes me the complexity and workload for pilots, I like watching steveo1kinevo flights in a TBM850, but you have taken it to a new level. I did actually follow what you were saying - I must be cleverer than I thought. Most people would look at the market and just buy the product that most meets their needs, you are effectively doing the manufactures work for them, coming up with the latest variations for the model. Further I think if I built these planes, or engines, and I had a new model, I would be dropping them at your door for review 🙂
I am not a pilot but love airplanes. My wife and I were hosting a RV park in Iron River, Michigan. Krist Oil Co. had a PC-12 flying out of a very short runway in Stambaugh, Michigan. He flew directly over us in the park. Got quite a few pictures of him taking off and landing. Great Airplane.
I sure didn't think that was boring. I'm not a pilot, I'm not an aircraft owner, nor am I an aircraft mechanic. I am a Patey enthusiast, and seeing how passionate Mark is on this subject makes it interesting. But then again, I enjoyed reading Encyclopedias as a child
Hi Mark, I love your in depth data analysis. I noticed a small error around 4:21 in your video where you talk about the max continuous temp of 820 while on the screen it says 840 for the Papa engine. Not trying to be picky, just trying to help.Again: thank you so much for sharing all of this. You guys take awesomeness to a whole new level. 👍
Thanks. Yup you’re right, I said it correctly but there is a typo 👍
Some take off and runway length numbers would be awesome, thanks for the update!
I’d watch even if I wasn’t an enthusiast of aviation. Just to see the enthusiasm, passion and happiness of you both makes it worth watching. Keep smiling- love to see it!
I’m not a pilot, I’ve flown all of 3 times commercially, when you talk about different planes I generally have no clue what you’re talking about. All that being said, I could listen to you talk about the cost:benefit analysis on the 9 different ways of skinning a cat.
Thank you Patey Brothers for piquing my interest in aviation. Because of you I will some day own a bush plane and have my private pilots license.
It would be amazing to see the real time cockpit calculations during flight.
Excellent content
I don't own, or fly but watched the whole video because I like details and stats....... Pretty cool............
Now comes the more important $13.2m question: when will you upgrade to the Pilatus PC-24? 🤭😜
Hey what’s up I was wondering I need a job I’m inspiring and model. I also have a pretty face. I mean Pittsburgh, but thought we could make something happen. I don’t fly airplanes. I ride a Harley but I’ll give it a shot shot if you want. Try not to work weekends I travel a lot on my bike God bless America. Let’s go Brandon.
Seems pretty expensive for a turboprop engine. I was watching another RUclips video where a guy was talking about he could replace a G3 engine for $1 million.
As a Mechanical Engineer (now retired) I am always interested in engines and things they go in! Sadly, most of my professional career was involved in Forensic Failure Analysis of those where the internals decided they didn't want to play nice with each other anymore! ☹
So, you studied what happened when internal combustion transitions to external combustion... Ferrari might want to have a word. Lol
@@TomGS Actually most of the ones *I* dealt with were German Diesels. Ones that usually were run low or out of oil, and then run to destruction. 😡
It may have seemed boring to you but as one consumer of millions that benefit from people like you doing that work thanks :)
@@danielc9312 ditto
@@PhilG999 the design engineers call that unscheduled rapid disassembly a feature not a bug. 😂 as an automation engineer I’d say that it was purely mechanical related. 😂
Anytime they invite you to be a guest speaker at Oshkosh, you've made the big time in aviation.
Congrats guys…….engine swap is a business tax deduction😎
Here I am deciding whether to surface/repair my yamaha 660 head or buy a complete $500 Chinese 686cc top end for a 20 year old Rhino.
And here I am about to service my car hoping it’s not more than $500.
What does $600,000 get you with an engine overhaul?
The hair on your left ear mate........oh yeah right, back to the numbers! 7mins faster.....that's a big deal.
Awww, the first viewer to like and the first viewer to comment. I enjoy the numbers, the way to go about this...
Need deep pockets to fly that but it is 1st class 👍 lol will it bet turbulence 🤔 race on round the mountain and back?, 👍❤️🇬🇧
Knowing "the numbers" is what makes the name Patey mean success. Great job Mark! PAPA all the way!
I love the honesty upfront. I'm still watching, though :D
Was the old engine a trade in for core, and can that engine be rebuilt to the new specs of the P version? For comparison, in Vietnam I was in an OH-6A and asked the pilot to take it up high so I could have some cool air for a change. Of course the doors were off, so we went to 7000', and that was as high as the turbine temp limit would let us go. I think the ambient was still 60F plus at that height. But it felt sooo good.
Normally You trade in the old motor. We decided to keep ours for another project
Thanks Mark, thanks Mike, great stuff! Big 👍
You should do a collaboration with jimmys world and figure out some engine options for the elvis Jetstar he just picked up... it would be amazing to see a Jetstar with modern power and glass panel.
new wing design. need insets on wings for e-bike storage. then e-bike handlebars create less drag verses entire hanging e-bike.
less pilot work load ... less wing drag ... better
No Thanks, I'll just stick to my Gulfstream V! 😜🤪😁
I wanted to come say hello in Seattle today but I have to do the work rule it was a long day any ways super cool video hopefully
I will have the opertunity to meet you fellows one day safe travels
The first flight will be extremely exciting. Way cool. I love the best tug for my Columbia 350 that I purchased from you. I push and pull my hanger door open and shut with it too! Great design!
Mark - you need a Pilatus 24 in your life! As flown by the Aussie Royal Flying Doctor Service...... Legs all the way to the swivel joint...... Fuel efficient.... Rough landing capable...... Did I say fuel efficient????? PC12 - great Aircraft, PC24?
"Hell is gone and heaven's here
There's nothing left for you to fear
Shake your arse come over here
Now scream
I'm a burning effigy
Of everything I used to be
You're my rock of empathy, my dear
So come on let me entertain you
Let me entertain you".....
Did you sell, keep, or have to turn in as a core the bravo engine?
I was going to spend the money anyhow, so I actually saved money. What is the salvage value of the old engine?
-67AG is the best motor
Hey Mark, hope you and the family are all well. Thanks for an informative upgrade status. What gets me is the cost of that upgrade? I can’t believe it’s so much money. The one thing you didn’t figure is what is the time to recover the cost of the upgrade? Just curious. Safe flying, my friend.
I watched this on Mark's channel, thanks for reposting. Good data!
This Rotax 912S engine pilot found this fascinating!
Mark, you did a perfect explanation. It’s so good I can use it in my lectures at aviation college 😊.
Obviously the climbing part is what makes thermal difference performance wise.
Nice to see your able to gain some more cruise speed. But getting there the easy way makes grade.
I have flown loads of multi engine pt6 planes and yes we set those energies not to exceed red line ever.
We gave up some speed / performance to make some space for cockpit management.
Luckily some newer planes made life better by upgrade like yours
Congratulations 👏
I am still missing Draco. Such a wonderful beast of an airplane. But we need to move on.
Thanks for giving us the details!
Mark showed up in Sedona this week with that B E A utiful bird. It was a pleasure meeting you!
It sounds like while expensive, it is still money well spent. Especially if it reduces stress while increasing enjoyment of the aircraft.
Was there any value left in the old motor to yourselves, or just scrap?
Explained so well im not a plane engine guy but i totally understood that
Great job Mark..! Love the paint job on Perry.