INFORMATION THAT FEW PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT THIS INCIDENT : This flight is schedulded at the worst moment in term of cicardian rythme disruption. The effect of the jet lag is so powerful at this slot that this flight is known amongst Air France pilots to be one of the most challenge in terms of fatigue and physiological stress. And it is return flight... Follwing a flight with a huge jetlag... US companies don't take this slot for this reason. I guess Air France didn't have so much choice. The flight is long, but not enough to make a relief pilot mandatory so it's a two pilots crew only. This information is lacking in most of the videos and articles on the subject despite being well known by a lot of aviation professionals. We're talking about a human phenomenon here. So this information is very important as it played a huge role in this event. There is a reason why this crew had a risk of having poor CRM at arrival in these conditions
It is amazing how two people that are sitting so close to each other can be so far away from each other mentally that they don't even realize what the other is doing.
This is where the human factor comes in, after flying at night. You'd think the technology in this day and age, that such an aircraft could detect that both pilots are combating each others inputs?
That's what happened with AF447; but that ultimately went down to the Airbus flight control system, where the joysticks don't move in unison with each other.
This is just like the comedic routine of a guy working to move a piano thru door of an apartment. A neighbor saw the struggling person and offered to help. They worked and worked and struggled and struggled but the piano would not budge. The guy inside the room said "I think its stuck, I simply can not get it into the room". The other guy said "... what do you mean INTO the room"?!?!?
I think your brand of ‘humor’ is misplaced here; Not to mention being stupid and unfunny in any context. You need to work on your material, "Chumba Wumba".
Can you imagine doing this in old fully only mechanically linked aircraft? One pilot would instantly turn to the other and say 'whose got control, you or me?'. These modern aircraft are making pilots go dumb.
Seems to be a problem at AF. Even if you say “my controls” you are not sure that controls are actually yours. Because the monitoring pilot is frozen and mentally not there. Pulling the yokes backwards
@@huwzebediahthomas9193this particularly plane had both yokes mechanically linked, like the good old days. the stress of the situation and inability to calm down simply meant both pilots were fighting each other, even if the inputs by both pilots could be felt. Simply put, this incident had nothing to do with modern aircraft making things dumb.
If the data recorder is able to record the input force of each pilot, I feel like a “conflicting input” warning or something should be present especially if the force exceeds 20 pounds. So if one is applying upward force, and the other is applying downward force, a light comes on that says “conflicting inputs” and that would allow them to investigate it
I'm not a pilot, but from my understanding, there actually is a warning for that, at least on (some?) Boeing aircraft, where the computer should call out "Dual Input." Not sure if that's the case on this aircraft though.
@@garmmermibe5397 that's an airbus feature I think. But on the Airbus this warning is even more important since the sidesticks don't move on the contralateral side when an imput is given, in contrast to the yoke on a Boeing which always moves on both sides when inputs are given on one side since they are driven by electrical motors. I think that this incident as well as similar incidents on Airbuses prove that both manufacturers would benefit from implementing each other's features as well.
Certainly have this on airbus, but I’m unsure on Boeing. Really should have it, but it may also be ignored by the pilots in the heat of the moment. This is an embarrassing moment for Air France, not the only one either.
Air France has an interesting history of two pilots trying to get the airplane to move in opposite directions. And at the same time being completely oblivious that it’s happening between two people sitting right next to each other.
Fully agreed with the conclusion. This incident is mind blowing, to say the least. I'm an old man now and a former pilot (retired from the military) and I remember when I was young: flying with Air France meant flying safe, it was one of the best airlines in the world (I'm French but not bragging, it was true and not only for the food). Now look at that: it's heartbreaking for me to say that but there is a serious problem with this airline nowadays. I knew this incident and I couldn't believe it, to be honest ... The first officer was flying a B777 on a longhaul flight and was not even able to fly manually more than 30 seconds! I've never flown with such a bad copilot! Flying the aircraft on short final is the only thing they have to do manually! The captain was surprised for sure but saying "my controls" when there is something weird and you are the most experienced pilot and the captain is basic and common sense! On an Airbus, the flight controls are side-sticks and are not connected mechanically so that it is less easy for one pilot to know what the other one is doing except through the effect on the aircraft behaviour. In a B777, the yokes are quite big and connected so that this should not happen! This incident is beyond my understanding. The airline is to blame for the training, obviously not adequate (despite the AF447 disaster!), the captain is to blame for not acting as a captain and (I hesitate) the first officer should try to find another job ... Appalling. My opinion
read the initial BEA report, it explain the situation. Flight timing is very bad du to jet lag which didnt helped also. and the atc voice make it catastrophic but the plane was still flying all time even if they went go around. Also from a geographic point of view, CDG airport is not inside Paris but some kms to the north. After the runway when coming from usa (ie west) , there are just fields (so the video is a little over sensational) . No plane are normally allowed to fly over Paris, they all go one side or the other ....
@@MrLabtec70 Pour tout dire moi aussi. Il fut un temps où je voyageais souvent (mais pas extrêmement souvent non plus) sur les "navettes" Marseille-Paris ou Marseille-Bordeaux pour raisons professionnelles (j'ai travaillé dans l'industrie aéronautique 13 ans après ma carrière de pilote) et j'ai quand même vu deux fois des approches à vue complètement foirées sur Marseille, avec remise des gaz (heureusement). Pour gagner du temps par rapport à la procédure IFR complète, si on est en bonnes conditions on peut toujours "annuler l'IFR", passer en vol à vue et se poser comme le ferait un avion d'aéroclub, directement ou après une vent-arrière et c'est courant à Marseille où il y a souvent du vent mais rarement du brouillard. Sauf que ... c'est du pilotage manuel. Dans les 2 cas l'approche était trop haute, trop vite et mal alignée : je savais que c'était mal engagé dès le départ même en place passager ! Une fois ça peut arriver mais plusieurs ... ça m'attristait un peu tout de même mais je me disais que c'était un jeune à l'instruction, etc ... En fait c'était autre chose et c'était avant le Rio-Paris. Il y a un problème de recrutement et de formation à Air France depuis un moment. En plus si vous regardez des vidéos de spotters sur des aérodromes internationaux importants genre Los Angeles ou Hong Kong, pas Rodez, vous pouvez passer une heure à voir des avions de toutes les compagnies et il y a presque toujours KLM et presque jamais Air France. Où est passé Air France ? Quand aux vidéos de cockpit que je regarde avec un œil professionnel, elles me désolent, pas toutes bien sûr mais certaines avec le jeune copilote type bobo parlant avec des ouaieuh, arborant le petit bracelet fluo qui fait "branché" (je suppose), les indispensables Ray-Ban et une barbe de 3 jours (tous les jours de 3 jours) mais surtout qui parle beaucoup trop et de trop de choses au lieu de se concentrer sur ce qu'il a à faire et sur la situation de l'avion à l'instant présent. Quelle image de ce qui était une compagnie prestigieuse mais aussi du pays car tout le monde le voit ! Tout part en sucette et Air France ne fait pas exception. Des vidéos semblables prises dans des compagnies moins "prestigieuses" sont bien plus professionnelles ! C'est triste, ça m'agace profondément et ça me fait honte alors que ça pourrait facilement se corriger.
It is definately very embarrassing not only for a former AirFrance pilot as you are but also for a French as I am as our national air company seem not to be very trustable. Yes it is a shame to see so badly trained pilots in charge of the life of hundreds souls every day.
it really is very worrying to see what 2 pilots without any skill can cause to hundreds of passengers that trust them with their lives. It is extremely shameful and the airline needs to take action against both of the pilots. Even the stressed tone of voice indicated that they both really didn't know what they were doing. It is scary to just think that people like that could be flying the plane you're on...This airline has crashed people to their deaths before if I remember well. I would never trust to fly with them
In long haul flying there are 2 big issues unaddressed by the industry: fatigue (worsen by changing time zones) and lack of hand flying, specially for FOs in many airlines. Until those things are fixed, we will continue to see events like this.
@@sharoncassell9358 I think that goes into the fatigue session. Starting skipping steps and not thinking the consequences cause you are tired and want to get on with it. Luckily the comm breakdown didnt brought the plane down.
I am surprised that this happened on a Boeing. For AF 447, it was 'explainable' as handling a joystick is way less visual to the other pilot than controlling a yoke.
@@HeaanLasai no matter how deep psychologically you go, it all boils down to the captain not saying, "I have control" it's pilot error, plural. The captain should also have said "I'm flying, CP get the check list out for......?" This negates this from ever happening. But the investigation is on-going, so all speculation at this juncture.
I thought CRM was supposed to eliminate things like this. It's scary how many incidents AF has had over the past 20 or 30 years related solely to the crew and training. I'm curious how they stack up vs other flag carrier airlines however.
They actually stack up quite well, the difference is that AF is not shy about making those events public, in order for others to learn about a mistake and not repeat it again.
@@jetaddicted I'm not familiar with European air incident investigation procedures, but do Airlines in Europe (or in France in particular) have a say in whether or not incidents a relating to their aircraft are made public? All final reports from the NTSB in the US or the Canadian TSB are public documents, I can't imagine that Air France has any authority to tell the BEA to keep an incident like this a secret.
@@KevBotM This seems like a good question to bring up to Petter over on "Mentour Pilot" and/or "Mentour Now" (channels on YT)... He's European and awfully keen to share technical and "Industry Insider" information about all things aviation. He might even already have a video discussing it and I've just managed to miss it (so far)... He even encourages people to ask about ANY "weird things" they might want to know about aircraft, the industry, history of avionics, and just life as a pilot in general. Nothing against Green Dot, of course... I WOULD be willing to speculate, however, that European Investigations are largely public documents, too. This guy sounds Possibly Irish or Scottish by his accent, and would have it kind of tough to get internal investigation info' from France if it wasn't already public to some extent... BUT of course, that's also entirely speculation on my part. ;o)
Oh. Its not an isolated event. Other countries suffer the same problems. They all use the same planes & often have similar attitudes. Humans will be humans. Combative, conflictive and sometimes jealous.
INFORMATION THAT FEW PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT THIS INCIDENT : This flight is schedulded at the worst moment in term of cicardian rythme disruption. The effect of the jet lag is so powerful at this slot that this flight is known amongst Air France pilots to be one of the most challenge in terms of fatigue and physiological stress. And it is return flight... Follwing a flight with a huge jetlag... US companies don't take this slot for this reason. I guess Air France didn't have so much choice. The flight is long, but not enough to make a relief pilot mandatory so it's a two pilots crew only. This information is lacking in most of the videos and articles on the subject despite being well known by a lot of aviation professionals. We're talking about a human phenomenon here. So this information is very important as it played a huge role in this event. There is a reason why this crew had a risk of having poor CRM at arrival in these conditions.
@@marks6663your comment is such arrogant, ignorant and insulting. No one said fatigue is to blame for every accident instead of pilots except you. You're are treating pilots involved in accidents of idiots but you seem to ignore completely the basics about the air medecine found in a simple theorical exam of a PPL that any 16 year old teen can learn ! If your ignorance wasn't so judging and insulting, it would have been a very good thing permitting you to learn rather than insult people, treating them of idiots. It seems that the only idiot in the room right now may be the one who treat others the others of this...
Well done on explaining what happened! I remember that that day, and what the initial fear was amongst the community -- that something might be wrong with the 777's FMS/FMC. After hearing the ATC audio, I realized that the automation wasn't the cause, rather, it was due to pilot error. BUT, I didn't realize that the pilots were fighting against each other -- something that didn't even cross my mind. After a day or so when the CDR data was released, it was clear to me that the pilots were fighting each other -- evidenced by the opposite control inputs after the columns decoupled. So, indeed, it was pilot error, compounded by lack of communication. The latter is understandable, especially since the pilots were fearing & fighting for their lives. Regardless, their training should have kicked in, but didn't (why?). Fans of Airbus planes might not see the benefit of coupled flight control columns / sticks, but the design has saved lives, including flight AF 11. Airbus FBW planes (almost all) employ independent sidesticks, and one or the other pilot can take full control at the push of a button. Pilot training includes CRM procedures that are designed to prevent opposing flight control inputs, and they work very well. However, there have been cases (e.g., AF 447) where a very slight, and unnoticed input movement on one sidestick has caused disastrous consequences. If the sidesticks were coupled, the chance is much higher that an inadvertent input by one pilot would be noticed by the other, and corrective actions could then taken. It's difficult to say if the outcome of AF 447 would have been different if it were to be a Boeing 777, but at least the inadvertent control movement made by the inexperienced co-pilot, would have been noticed by the other pilot. Very happy that all turned out wel for AF 11l!!
@Shevi 777 I did watch the video. There was nothing that I could find in the audio with ATC that would indicate pilot error. My question was to the OP, but since you imply that the answer was contained in the video, you're welcome to answer the question. Frankly, I think the entire comment is bogus since the OP knew that the pilots were in error but then admits not knowing that they were opposing each other… So what was their error as initially but erroneously deduced? Also, the assertion that if AF447 had been fitted with linked controls the pilots would have known what each other were doing is interesting considering this video is about two pilots with linked controls who DIDN'T recognize what the other was doing.
AF447 cannot be blamed on airbus one bit and the side stick is not a valid excuse to put blame on them, but I do believe that they would have recovered in a 777. the first officer (not the reserve fo who put the plane in the stall) would have seen the reserve fo pulling back and felt force, instead of thinking his controls were broken
This has interesting implications - when AF447 happened, a common idea was that the ability to feel the other pilot's inputs would prevent conflicting inputs. Well, here we have an answer - in such case the pilots would just physically force the feedback system into a state where it switches off. Speaking of, how does Boeing's FBW handle conflicting inputs (decoupled yokes)? Does it command deflections separately on the respective sides (i.e. emulating decoupled yokes without FBW) or does it average inputs and keep the control surfaces working together (i.e. the airbus approach)?
@@Robert_N I don't think this incident would have happened in an Airbus, for three reasons: - the Airbus flight stick commands roll rate (in flight), not control surface deflection - the sticks are not physically linked, so pilots can't physically end up wrestling over small movements as happened here - the averaging approach (combined with an audible alarm) would have mitigated this situation I think Xymanek is correct - this incident largely puts to bed the idea that physically linked sticks are the way to solve pilot coordination issues. Clearly they are not.
@@asquithea Agreed bro/broette. Both designs of Boeing and Airbus have their strengths, but I prefer Airbus more. Sticks should not be linked, as coordination may fail as you said. Honestly, before I finished the video and stuff, I thought the 777 had a fly-by-wire error caused by a solar storm or something, as solar activity will increase for the first part of the 2020s, up until 2025. Thankfully, there has been no reported incident of a civilian aircraft malfunctioning from a geomagnetic storm. :)
I remember the conclusions of the investigation into the Air France flight that plunged into the Atlantic, it said the main cause was poor pilot training. This is not a one-off, it's a systematic failure that it appears Air France have not addressed. I will not fly with Air France.
Look up AA587. That was also a pilot training issue. What about British Midland 092? IIRC they shut down the wrong engine. No accident has a single cause, including AF447, so blaming pilot training is simplistic. But it is true that one aspect of pilot training has changed across the whole industry, related to stall recovery. That is however often the case, at some scale, following an accident or incident.
@@axel-stephanesmrgrav7036 I'm not picking on Air France randomly. Some time ago I did some research on which of the major airlines have the best and worst safety records (in the jet era). A lot had one or two fatal crashes: BA, Lufthansa, KLM (before the merger), LAN, Delta. Only one airline had none: Quantas. Air France had 5 - by far the worst and that's the reason I won't fly with them.
Oh my goodness, throughout all of the Green Dot Aviation videos I’ve gone through thus far, this is honestly the first one that triggered a huge burst of laughter. What an incredible situation to be in where the Captain & F.O. were unaware that they were battling each other for control. I’ve learned so much about aviation from my GD marathon alone.
After just discovering your channel and then binge-watching many of the videos (and previously watching all of Mentour Pilot's videos, in addition to the TV series Air Crash Investigation), I want to suggest ONE common denominator across ALL of these incidents and crashes: bad communication! It seems in most cases, there is always a lack of good, clear communication. It's like human nature is always to assume the other person knows what's going on. Could this be fixed with better pilot training? Or is it simply how we as people behave in our daily lives - we become used to the same old routine, and we assume those around us know what's going?? It's really a terrible trait, and could have avoided many of these accidents.
As a french, "alors" can mean "so" in english and "l'avion a fait n'importe quoi" can mean "the plane did/made a mess. "mode grammar nazi off", the video was good as always (and I don't sleep while watching them), they provide good content while waiting for the next air crash season.
Although they had the breakdown in communication on approach, and they fought each other on the controls, I am impressed that they initiated the go around so soon. We hear so many stories of "get there itis" where this crucial decision is not made and we know how those can end.
So summing up, an aeroplane in perfect working order , and two Air France pilots , result, near catastrophe, which coincidentally is a French word. As you state AF447 was exactly the same scenario, if the French first officer did nothing, the temporary unreliable airspeed scenario would have cleared and all on board would have survived.
Pilots from the same airline that crashed flight 447 in 2009. Very basic procedures when one pilot wishes to take control from another. But somehow they didn't do it
How did he not realize he was banking? I get the lack of communication, but I understand why the captain would assume the FO couldn't fuck up something that simple too.
Very interesting video! I was most surprised to learn the actual cause of this incident. You mentioned AirFrance 447 and how the two pilots in that disaster were both trying to fly the plane, unaware of the other's inputs. The AF447 plane was an Airbus, and the the pilot's sticks were not linked and each gave no indication of what the other stick was doing. But in this incident of AF11, the plane was a Boeing and the yokes were linked together, yet the pilots ended up wrestling with each other and not realizing it! If AF11 had been an Airbus, I believe the computer would have averaged the inputs of the two sticks. I wonder what would have happened in that case. I suppose there's no foolproof way to save a plane when the pilots get tunnel vision, as can easily happen in an emergency. I'm very glad this plan landed safely.
Based upon your account, even before the Captain began his inputs, the plane was already banking from inputs made by the FO that he was unaware of. I believe this was the initial problem. So the question is what caused the FO to become perceptually separated from his actions? Did he have a medical episode? What there a fog related disorientation?
The two sirens audible in the ATC clips are firstly the autopilot disconnect and secondly the gear configuration warning. The first sound heard would mean that the autopilot was just disconnected. A second push of the disconnect switch would have canceled the warning.
I think these videos are good for pilots to see for training purposes! Breakdowns of these incidents have to help with understanding the possible causes of different scenarios they could be faced with.
I have done a huge amount of air travel around the world over the years and still do take regular international flights. I find the videos and stories of air crashes from days gone by particularly interesting and somewhat reassuring as it was the air disasters of the past that have made air travel relatively safe now in modern times, we learnt from both the human mistakes and the deficiencies in older technology and engineering. Crashes involving modern airliners are much more disconcerting to watch, whenever I go to fly somewhere I don't worry about whether or not I'm going to make it alive to my destination, the thought that I may not doesn't even cross my mind to be honest, but then some of these videos about very recent incidents remind me that in reality there is never ever a 100% chance that something won't go terribly wrong.
This mostly means he gets recommended at lot and gets a lot of views from unsubscribed people (which is good because it means the video is reaching new people, which brings in new subscribers, but it is a mistake to assume all viewers are subscribed.)
Well done, another great video. Interesting to learn about the jammed column mechanism.Blancolirio did a video about the mechanism and how the flight computers can compound or average out the individual column input signals when the columns are decoupled similar to how Airbus handle differing input from each side stick.
I became aware of this trap very early in private flying - when sharing duties with another pilot and there is no clear demarcation on who is doing what. Very easy to miss what should be done or working against each other.
me and my dad have been talking about your channel for months, i didn’t even know i hadn’t subscribed because i have watched so much of your content that it always just comes up !! keep up the hard work you must put into these, it’s worth it for people like me :D
Good grief - fear of flying is real with pilots not understanding their instruments, not talking standard English on the radio and not agreeing on who's at the controls.
This airline terrifies me. How do they select and train their pilots?? How does such a FUNDAMENTAL error happen?? "MY PLANE" as you said would have solved this immediately. To think that all those pax and people on the ground were put at risk because these two were fighting each other makes me so mad. Great video!
You cant blame a pilot for becoming disoriented & tired or getting confused. Do you see how different your own neighborhood looks when snow covers the streets or its dark & rainy at night? It does not look the same.
Watching this after watching how calm and professional the Air India in New York case was handled is just… I’m speechless, I hope people realise how important teamwork and communication is in this kind of situation
Pas que chez Air France malheureusement : en tant que Français qui a travaillé aussi bien en France qu'à l'étranger et qui travaille avec différentes nationalités, je peux vous certifier à quel point les Français sont archi-mauvais quand il s'agit de travailler en équipe, voire même archi-cons ! Parce qu'à la limite, d'autres nationalités qui n'auraient pas le sens du travail en équipe sont toujours prêtes à apprendre. Les Français, pas du tout !
teamwork culture and communication are basic things in aviation. Fatigue is something that could justify the occurrence of this. They were supposed to fly with more than two pilots - which should be mandatory on long flights.
You picked up one of the most important cause of this incident: fatigue. But the regulations do not require a relief pilot to be mandatory for a flight so long as surprising as it might be. The detail that a lot of people miss is that it is a return flight at the worst time for the cicardian rythme (sleep rythme) So much that US companies don't take this slot for a good reason: it gives too much fatigue due to sleep rythme disruption and fatigue accumulation. A wide numbers of pilots said that this flight is one of the most difficult to do in terms of fatigue. One of the most challenging. It plays a great role in this incident.
This is what happens when pilots stop flying regularly for 2 years. There have been several near misses in the recent past which are clearly related to pandemic response disruptions. Sometimes “solving” one problem creates another.
Pilots should ALWAYS be able to both see and feel each other's inputs. Bonin saying "but I've been pulling back the whole time" actually came as a surprise to the other crew of AF447 - it wouldn't have been if they were in a 777, though this case shows that humans never fail to surprise. It's horrifying that in BOTH cases, AF pilots thought exact opposite inputs were necessary.... anyone on a PC would have gotten that right, why do so many pilots ignore the artificial horizon? Anyway that's a meatware issue, not firmware, so can fixed with training. The joystick idea - especially averaging them with the most subtle conflict warning - is dangerous.
The pilots were not aware of the unlinking feature of the control columns and they weren’t trained on it. AF had to contact Boeing to get more info on it. Reminds me of the infamous MCAS.
After 447 from years ago and this flight serious questions need to be asked of AirFrance’s training and standards. There appears to be a lack of system knowledge, CRM and hand flying.
It's so sad flight 447 with two hundred and sixteen passengers died in vain, why? Because Air France flight 11, has made the same mistakes as in 2009. It is sickening and blindingly obvious nothing much has been learned from that crash. (By air France) What makes it hundreds of times worse, it's the same carrier, making the same mistake. I am however very thankful that on this occasion, no one has died. That doesn't account for the mental health, stress, anxiety, and fear they will have suffered on this rollercoaster ride. The pilots, and air France should be ashamed of themselves. I hope the BEA investigation, (still ongoing) has a major shake up for air France, when their investigation is concluded.
It's not so simple and linked to the AF447 that it seems. Many pilots stressed out that Air France is thé only Airline that takes this sector at this time for a return flight. And there is a reason for it. It is the worst time for a return flight in terms of cicardian rythme disruption. The sleep rythme is the most disrupted and the fatigue is at the highest at the arrival in Paris. Adding to that, even if the flight is long, it is not long enough to put a relief pilot in the crew, according to regulations. According to pilots having made this sector, this flight is the most difficult in terms of fatigue and sleep disbalance. It is a very different situation from the AF447. No ergonomy issues and alerts du to flight stick specifics and alternate law etc... It is a pure story of fatigue, cicardian cycle disruption resulting in a pour CRM (Crew Ressource Management). Poor CRM due to fatigue and cicardian rythme disruption leading to confusion and loose control happen to any Company in any type. This specific event was over covered by the media as nowadays ATC communications are easily accessible and the pilot believed to have a control issue on radio. So the médias quickly interpreted it as something close to disaster. The thruth is that it's not. You can read the report from the BEA online. The aircraft never went close to a catastrophy but there was a real incident. The pilots had pour CRM leading them to confusion and being "behind the plane", making opposite actions on the control with the lack of communication that the pour CRM gives. It gave excessive input, feeling that the controls had issues, go around procedure wrongly done, etc. The terms "almost disaster" "like AF447" etc are sensational and interresting for the médias. But it's not a good representation of what happened. There is no real link to the AF447 because pour CRM leading to incidents happen in all companies each year. Maybe the slot need to be changed for this flight and or a relief pilot is to add, emphasis on CRM to be rised in training. Because this incident has nothing to do with a dynamic stall of an A330 with wrong pitots tubes with pilots lacking training in the middle of the storms due to tropical convergence line at night after departure with 3 crew members. This incident has more to do with the fact that the Covid crisis reduced the recent practice and put enormous pressure on all companies so that unadaptated slot with no relief pilots are maintained. The Covid crisis was followed by a big rise of incident like near miss, loss of situation awareness, loss of control etc. The pilots never had a break so long without flying in the entire history of aviation ! When you know that companies had to burn money on making fly empty aircraft just to make them work the minimum of time and to keep crew proefficiency to at least the minimum for the pilots to not loose their qualifications and licences, you understand the impact. Anyway the pilots of this flight suffered from fatigue, cicardian rythme trouble and lacked of CRM.
@@bonbondesel I do not disagree with you. I'm doing a longer reply,. But for now, the only thing you've missed, or not touched on. Is the very unknown "boredom factor" This mixed with, fatigue, hight stress and anxiety levels, and bad CRM, make for a very volatile mix.
@bonbondesel The crew were inadvertently acting in opposition on the flight controls due to a lack of CRM. In that regard this flight IS like AF447, even though the reason the pilots ended up looking like The Three Stooges is different. Claiming that there is no similarity to AF447 because CRM-related accidents happen in all companies each year is not a valid argument as the prevalence of CRM-deficiency incidents has no bearing on the degree of similarity to AF447. In fact, inadvertent opposition is a rare enough occurrence to make both flights notable. The news media uses terms like "near disaster" because they are in the advertising business-not the news business-and attention-grabbing sensational news is their way of exposing the reader/viewer to the third party advertising that pays their electric bill. If the news is not attractive enough, they will recruit Pinocchio to make it so. Still, to say that the flight was nowhere near serious danger when the control column's safety break mechanism activated-twice-due to the pilots' shenanigans you have to be unaware or recklessly dismissive of how quickly such control opposition can jeopardize continued safe flight and landing. An Egypt Air 767 nose dived into the sea when the control columns similarly disconnected to independent left & right control channels, albeit the FO was desperately suicidal. Did the BEA Preliminary Report cite a lack of recent flight experience due to COVID-19 as a contributing factor, or are you speculating about it?
@@petep.2092 It's crazy as people on internet want to judge, simplify things and make people say what they didn't say to argue. I'm gonna make it brief as I don't have the time to make endless debate, I'm pretty sick having Covid. I never said the slot of the flight, the fact that it is the worst moment for cicardian rythme with a flight long but not obliging to add a relief pilot is the sole explanation to the incident nor excuse the poor CRM. I did not even suggested it. I did not either said that because it can happen elsewhere, AF or and these pilots have no responsibilities in that. You put that in my mouth. Now, I say it again to be clear once and for all: I just wanted to add this information and it's a first end information coming directly from Air France pilots experienced with this flight. Yes there was a phenomenon of over mediatization and the flight was not close to disaster, it's not writren in the BEA reports that the flight came close to it. Never. Media said it. it was analyzed like this by some aviation experts like for example "ATE" airliner pilot, former US Navy F-18 pilot, former French rafale and other figther jets pilot and conceller in aviation safety. If you want to disregard or contradict these kind of expertises, it's up to you. And yes events like that happen in a companies, but not all come to media this way. Yes it is my humble opinion that Covid can have played a role in pilots proefficiency and also yes aviation experts and pilots suggest that the rise of incidents recently could be related to that. Now I'm sick of people trying to confront only for pleasure on internet and asking for more and more over the time to try to prove they are right I just wanted to add an information that is important because in any flight, context play a role. Now if you want to use it to interpret as excuses to mistakes of the crew or Air France training, in order to blame Air France and the crew, go ahead, any pilot or aviation expert know that incidents are not so simple, But let me ask you back the question : You want me to quote the BEA reports because you think I'm saying wrong things to give excuses to AF or pilots, OK, and you ? IN WHICH OFFICIAL REPORT DID YOU READ THAT THE INCIDENT IS LINKED TO AF447 ? I'm just having the same demands as you have towards me ! Answer this because I read the reports and it's not mentionned anyway I just wanted to add an information but on internet people are there to blame and to create confrontation and endless debate. Now if you have an information about this specific flight, go ahead. I brought one with no will of discrediting or judging anyone or even excuse anyone. The issue is that people are there for that. And it's exhausting. It becomes difficult to just bring an informations without being constently sollicitated agressively to take part in sterile debates you don't want. Over.
This vid is glossing over the most important part of the cause. How did the fo manage to bank the plane 6 degrees and then thought the plane had done it by itself? It doesn't make sense that he'd just made a series of small corrective manoeuvres but then didn't realise he was banking.
I can completely sympathize with these pilots, as the fog of being “in the moment” differs greatly from the clarity of “after the fact”. They instantaneously became focused 101% on saving the plane. That instant when your stomach hits the back of your throat & that cold electric shock shoots through your body happens, everything around you fades out & your brain becomes tunnel visioned on figuring out how to fix whatever seems broken at that instant.
No call informing tower of the control problem and need to go around. I was surprised the captain didn’t take control sooner and it’s shocking that he failed to announce to My Aircraft. I remembered 447. Clearly the French are behind the curve in CRM.
And that's why you should always say "I have control" when you take control of the airplane. This is both embarrassing and terrifying at the same time. It simply shouldn't happen.
I don't fly the B777, nor have I ever flown the B777, apparently the Air France pilots are weak on basic airmanship, they lack the discipline required for CRM, and don't use standard fraseology. This is an obvious and serious breakdown in safety and needs to be dealt with at once.
@@axel-stephanesmrgrav7036 I am currently flying B747s. For your pilot training, you could obtain you pilot's certifications via several flight schools available throughout the USA if you are here, otherwise I'll suggest that you check with your local aeronautical authorities, to find out a good flight school for you.
@@afreightdogslife The 777 cockpit is not that different than 747. this incident is on Air France. many other airlines like United and British Airways have also used the 777 for a long time, and yet they have not had this kind of incident.
@[Blank] I just watched the video once again because I had forgotten the story. Again, I stand by my previous statement. You are correct stating that these other airlines use the same type of aircraft, the B777-300, and they don't seem to suffer the kind of incidents that AF is suffering from. It appears to be a pilot induced problem due to a lack of enforcement of CRM and other training issues and not aircraft related.
Thank You. I think it would be wise to have an alarm sound if both pilots are trying to fly the plane at the same time, that way they can be reminded that only one person should be flying the aircraft.
In an emergency situation, the Pilot Not Flying should place their hands flat on the cockpit display, where the Pilot Flying can see them, and say 'My hands are off' or 'Les mains sont levees', or something like that, so it's absolutely clear that there is only one person flying the plane.
Look forward to detailing departure from ideal cockpit teamwork. I've watched many landings where procedures were followed. I know AF447 was a textbook case of how not to work as a team. But I can, as a rank amateur, see some departures from "normal". Cockpits should resemble a fast moving game, with tons of jabber about things happening. Frankly, I think the First Officer was too green for these conditions. It isn't shockingly rare for DeGaulle landings to be tricky. I bet a few hundred times a day, pilots all over the world manage these conditions.
Great explaination, love the visuals from the flight sim! I'm always wondering why (mostly french) pilots keep communicating in their native language via ATC? Even in an emergency situation, doesn't other aircraft and pilots who might don't speek french need to be aware of it?
If you spoke the same native language as the controller in a situation like this, then I think that speaking it is totally appropriate. The only thing that matters here is clear communication between ATC and the flight crew… whether that be in French, German, Japanese etc.
@@astridvvv9662 so if you were placed in an emergency situation, and you and the controller both spoke the same language, but you insisted on speaking English because of ‘rules’, and you ended up crashing or getting into a loss of separation situation etc (and you survived)… you would have a very difficult time explaining that to a magistrate as to why you decided to communicate in English. If the safest course of action is to speak your local fluent language then a court of law would back you 100%. The pilot in command has authority to break any rule they want if it leads to a safe outcome in an emergency situation.
I was wondering about that too. I understand that the emergency crew speaks French to ATC, but the revoking of the climbing clearance to the other air France plane that was taking off was done in French too. For other aircrew around the airport who don't speak French that could have been important information if it had been done in English.
What's up with AF training culture??? As a present student pilot , first lesson from my CFI was the handling of controls in the plane between the two pilots. Verbally acknowledge who is taking control between us then immediate hands off for the pilot not flying. This is basic first lesson #1 that you never forget , unless you're an AF pilot ?? Something is terribly wrong at Air France
I need someone to explain to me why the ATC abandoned the international language of aviation which is English even for the non-distressed flight. I understand France prefers to use their own language for perhaps local airports but CDG is a busy international airport and other pilots on the same frequency do not necessarily speak French. Other pilots need to understand what is being said to maintain situational awareness and save lives! Do the French value nationalism over basic safety considerations?
France is far from being the sole country to speak the national language also in busy international airports. In Italy it's the same, in Spain it's the same, in Portugal it's the same, etc etc. You've got big hubs where pilots and ATC can speak Italian, Spanish, etc. It's like this in numerous place in the world and has nothing to do with nationalism. In any country it's easier to communicate in the mother's tongue language than in another. French pilots don't have more difficulties than the others to communicate in English in US busy airports. French are not as good as German in English concerning accent and grammar, but they have no specific issues in standard English for aviation. The fact that they speak French in France has nothing to do in this incident. And this airport did not "abandonned" the international language as anyone can communicate in English even French crews who often do it to keep proefficiency. And by the way, Charles De Gaulle airport did not have more issues than others because of misunderstanding with French communication. I don't even know if such issues happened here the last decade...
@@bartsolari5035 thanks for your severe judgment on France ! It's very kind and productive to use terms like stupidity etc... Thanks for the very polite exchange that would have sure been the same from you in real life with the respect of social codes you seem to be mastering 😉
@@bonbondesel I call it as I see it. you did make some important statement as to what may lead up to these incidents. What is of concern is that these issues are "known" but at times NOT dealt with. As to AF, it is my belief that AF has the equipment and training and record to be with the best carriers in Europe. I do NOT severely judge the French, but these two pilots were not following...who is flying, who is monitoring. I hold the FAA in the U.S. in contempt with laxs oversight claiming budget issues. The U.S. can piss away money with a 20 yr war in Afghanistan, but CANNOT fund the FAA to do its job, rubbish. Boeing self certifies the MAX and buries the existence and effects of MCAS, pure lies. There are way too many things that are dealt with "after" people die. BTW, the French do have a sense of their culture and I applaud that. Americans seem to be at each others throats. Bonne journee mon ami!
@@bonbondesel Using another language than standard Aviation English in the radio communication environment of an international airport is a MAJOR safety issue. We use English for ATC communication for the important reason that ALL pilots on the same frequency can understand the whole traffic situation = situational awareness. If French ATC and French pilots use their own French language to communicate in such an environment it is not only against the LAW of ICAO. It is also disregarding an important safety aspect. And by the way one more point: French is not only a language - it's also a philosophy of life. (France is a GREAT nation - French "is" (WAS) the language of international diplomacy. It would help aviation safety in a threefold way if Air France AND French ATC would be required to adhere to English communication all the time: -1- All the remaining pilots in an ATC environment would understand what is going on. -2- The French pilots would be introduced to standard intra-cockpit (cross-pilot) communication procedures that are up to international safety standards. When they have to switch to English they would be reminded that they are NOT at home with their family and NOT in a restaurant, but in a professional environment where safety and CRM (cockpit resource management) are most important. -3- By using the official aviation terms and cockpit relevant expressions ALL the time while in the cockpit, they would be more fluent in Aviation English when communicating with ATC in those countries where English is strictly used.
The real problem here is how similar this situation is to AF447. What should truly be brought to attention are the FACTS that, after being startled, the first officer uncontrollably pitched up the plane just like what happened a decade ago. If it weren't for this being a Boeing 777, the Captain may not have been able to wrestle the plane back from the dangerous pitch-up. It's also quite incredible that the Captain didn't announce "I have control" like in the AF447 case. I feel like there could be a real problem with Air France's safety training.
You're right, the ICAO has established English as the language of aviation and pilots, mechanics, flight controllers, dispatchers, etc. have to demonstrate english language proficiency to an acceptable level for that job. France ATC are not the only ones who violate that convention. I've heard ATC use Arabic on some trans-Mediterranean routes. They do so with self-centered disregard for the deterioration in safety that ensues and the peril to other english-only-speaking flights, which lose at least some situational awareness due to not knowing what the non-English speaking aircraft are doing or can be expected to do.
It’s insane that what happened outside of Paris over a decade ago almost happened again with the same company! What are they teaching Air France pilots?
Modern Planes should have some kind of alarm/mechanism to prevent inputs from both pilots at the same time. Why isn't something like that already implemented? This could be as simple as an audible warning like "Input conflict!" or an "I have control"-button on both yokes with an indicator on which one is active at the moment. Having a "fly by wire"-plane with coupled yokes or inputs that can cancel each other out makes no sense at all! I don't see a single situation in which this arrangement could be useful. And where did the pilots get the idea that wrestling with the controls was going to do anything, anyway? Does the "fly by wire"-system even provide any feedback with resistance that can be overpowered by the pilots? As I understand it, pulling the yoke harder shouldn't have any influence on what the actuators of the control surfaces are doing and their status shouldn't have any effect on the resistance of the yoke.
@@michapeka2800 Jup, that seems to be the case! I found an interesting article from an-aviation named "How does the control joystick in Airbus aircraft work?" I would post the link, but RUclipss horrible censorship prevents that, even if I competely disable it...
We have a wide body international First Officer disconnecting the automation to hand fly. Then while hand flying the First Officer manipulated the controls commanding aileron movement, the airplane complies with the control column deflection and begins turning. Then the First Officer does not recognize their own control column inputs , is unable to recover so elects to go around. During the go around this pilot verbally misdiagnosis the event which brings the Captain into a pilot flying capacity from having been pilot monitoring. Now we have two experienced international wide body pilots simultaneously being the pilot flying with neither being the pilot monitoring. Further they individually input opposing forces on their respective yokes battling for control to the point where the breakout/disconnect mechanism on two occasions activated. No wonder they were exhausted and stressed; that sounds like a lot of work. Amazing, simply amazing ………. I am simply stunned.
Why would one disconnect the A/P at 1,500’ when IMC in the first place and expected cloud brake at 300’. This was the first red flag when watching . ( PS , was B777 qualified ) Like Asiana , one cannot design aircraft to be flown by these type of people. Not to mention adherering to company SOPs or best practices. I was not perfect by a long shot, but still , the mind boggles !
If There never should be two pilots flying at the same time then it should be obvious that the system shouldn't allow the possibility of dial flight unless an override is selected. The Default could easily be created to be one input only. This would be so simple to avoid also simply having an illuminated warning of synchronization alert on the flight sticks. I would say that that's as much as a blatant design flaw as it was pilot error
Okay this might sound like a stupid question but i thought all radio contact had to be in English? I believe i heard something like that while watching mayday.
I wonder if the passengers ever realized the fine line they were walking between life and death? It doesn't seem as if from the back it would have appeared anything other than a regular go around.
I'm not trying to be contentious but what's going on with some AF pilots? This, 447 obviously and the overshoot of flight 358 plus many others going back through the years - you don't really expect this number of pilot error incidents from a major flag carrier airline
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INFORMATION THAT FEW PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT THIS INCIDENT :
This flight is schedulded at the worst moment in term of cicardian rythme disruption. The effect of the jet lag is so powerful at this slot that this flight is known amongst Air France pilots to be one of the most challenge in terms of fatigue and physiological stress.
And it is return flight... Follwing a flight with a huge jetlag...
US companies don't take this slot for this reason.
I guess Air France didn't have so much choice.
The flight is long, but not enough to make a relief pilot mandatory so it's a two pilots crew only.
This information is lacking in most of the videos and articles on the subject despite being well known by a lot of aviation professionals.
We're talking about a human phenomenon here. So this information is very important as it played a huge role in this event.
There is a reason why this crew had a risk of having poor CRM at arrival in these conditions
@@hellomiami4012 Exactly.
If you like Bill Bryson i also recommend "A short history of nearly everything"
I wonder why they can't engineer a CONTROL CONFLICT warning, an audible warning like "pull up terrain" ?
You need to check the MANDELA EFFECT on AIR PLANES
It is amazing how two people that are sitting so close to each other can be so far away from each other mentally that they don't even realize what the other is doing.
Now you know how SHE feels when HE'S on top... again...
@@PutsOnSneakers that's pretty good. 😂😂😂👏👏👏
This is where the human factor comes in, after flying at night.
You'd think the technology in this day and age, that such an aircraft could detect that both pilots are combating each others inputs?
i think there's an instinct that its the plane.. that its us against them.. when in fact the enemy is your ally. This runs counter to how we're wired
That's what happened with AF447; but that ultimately went down to the Airbus flight control system, where the joysticks don't move in unison with each other.
This is just like the comedic routine of a guy working to move a piano thru door of an apartment. A neighbor saw the struggling person and offered to help. They worked and worked and struggled and struggled but the piano would not budge. The guy inside the room said "I think its stuck, I simply can not get it into the room". The other guy said "... what do you mean INTO the room"?!?!?
:-) - Yes. But in this case nearly 200 human lifes were at stake.
Good story 🙂.
I think your brand of ‘humor’ is misplaced here; Not to mention being stupid and unfunny in any context. You need to work on your material, "Chumba Wumba".
@@NicolaW72
zit down son
@@longfade don't be so serious all the time
It's amazing how saying something as simple as, "I have control" can make all the difference
Can you imagine doing this in old fully only mechanically linked aircraft? One pilot would instantly turn to the other and say 'whose got control, you or me?'. These modern aircraft are making pilots go dumb.
That's what she said!
And how often in the heat of the moment the callout is forgotten.
Seems to be a problem at AF. Even if you say “my controls” you are not sure that controls are actually yours. Because the monitoring pilot is frozen and mentally not there. Pulling the yokes backwards
@@huwzebediahthomas9193this particularly plane had both yokes mechanically linked, like the good old days. the stress of the situation and inability to calm down simply meant both pilots were fighting each other, even if the inputs by both pilots could be felt. Simply put, this incident had nothing to do with modern aircraft making things dumb.
If the data recorder is able to record the input force of each pilot, I feel like a “conflicting input” warning or something should be present especially if the force exceeds 20 pounds. So if one is applying upward force, and the other is applying downward force, a light comes on that says “conflicting inputs” and that would allow them to investigate it
I'm not a pilot, but from my understanding, there actually is a warning for that, at least on (some?) Boeing aircraft, where the computer should call out "Dual Input." Not sure if that's the case on this aircraft though.
@@garmmermibe5397 that's an airbus feature I think. But on the Airbus this warning is even more important since the sidesticks don't move on the contralateral side when an imput is given, in contrast to the yoke on a Boeing which always moves on both sides when inputs are given on one side since they are driven by electrical motors. I think that this incident as well as similar incidents on Airbuses prove that both manufacturers would benefit from implementing each other's features as well.
Certainly have this on airbus, but I’m unsure on Boeing. Really should have it, but it may also be ignored by the pilots in the heat of the moment. This is an embarrassing moment for Air France, not the only one either.
What about a plane that says dual input? When both pilots are struggling at the same time.
@@sharoncassell9358 Airbus does this already when there are inputs on both side sticks. Not sure about other aircraft though.
Air France has an interesting history of two pilots trying to get the airplane to move in opposite directions. And at the same time being completely oblivious that it’s happening between two people sitting right next to each other.
It was indeed an embarrassing incident - but also a very dangerous one! Thank you for picking it up!
Air France had several incidences relating to pilot error: AF 447 Atlantic crash; Muehlhouse 1988 crash; AF 358 Toronto crash
@@expansionone Indeed. And on @Mentour Pilot you can even find some more.
As a guy who lives near the approach to CDG, you saying "april this year" made me go "👀👀👀👀👀"
😅😂
Saaame!
Fully agreed with the conclusion. This incident is mind blowing, to say the least. I'm an old man now and a former pilot (retired from the military) and I remember when I was young: flying with Air France meant flying safe, it was one of the best airlines in the world (I'm French but not bragging, it was true and not only for the food). Now look at that: it's heartbreaking for me to say that but there is a serious problem with this airline nowadays. I knew this incident and I couldn't believe it, to be honest ...
The first officer was flying a B777 on a longhaul flight and was not even able to fly manually more than 30 seconds! I've never flown with such a bad copilot! Flying the aircraft on short final is the only thing they have to do manually! The captain was surprised for sure but saying "my controls" when there is something weird and you are the most experienced pilot and the captain is basic and common sense! On an Airbus, the flight controls are side-sticks and are not connected mechanically so that it is less easy for one pilot to know what the other one is doing except through the effect on the aircraft behaviour. In a B777, the yokes are quite big and connected so that this should not happen! This incident is beyond my understanding.
The airline is to blame for the training, obviously not adequate (despite the AF447 disaster!), the captain is to blame for not acting as a captain and (I hesitate) the first officer should try to find another job ... Appalling. My opinion
read the initial BEA report, it explain the situation. Flight timing is very bad du to jet lag which didnt helped also. and the atc voice make it catastrophic but the plane was still flying all time even if they went go around. Also from a geographic point of view, CDG airport is not inside Paris but some kms to the north. After the runway when coming from usa (ie west) , there are just fields (so the video is a little over sensational) . No plane are normally allowed to fly over Paris, they all go one side or the other ....
entièrement d'accord avec vous... j'ai arrêté il y a longtemps de voler avec Air France.... surtout après le crash du vol 447
@@MrLabtec70 Pour tout dire moi aussi. Il fut un temps où je voyageais souvent (mais pas extrêmement souvent non plus) sur les "navettes" Marseille-Paris ou Marseille-Bordeaux pour raisons professionnelles (j'ai travaillé dans l'industrie aéronautique 13 ans après ma carrière de pilote) et j'ai quand même vu deux fois des approches à vue complètement foirées sur Marseille, avec remise des gaz (heureusement). Pour gagner du temps par rapport à la procédure IFR complète, si on est en bonnes conditions on peut toujours "annuler l'IFR", passer en vol à vue et se poser comme le ferait un avion d'aéroclub, directement ou après une vent-arrière et c'est courant à Marseille où il y a souvent du vent mais rarement du brouillard. Sauf que ... c'est du pilotage manuel. Dans les 2 cas l'approche était trop haute, trop vite et mal alignée : je savais que c'était mal engagé dès le départ même en place passager ! Une fois ça peut arriver mais plusieurs ... ça m'attristait un peu tout de même mais je me disais que c'était un jeune à l'instruction, etc ... En fait c'était autre chose et c'était avant le Rio-Paris.
Il y a un problème de recrutement et de formation à Air France depuis un moment. En plus si vous regardez des vidéos de spotters sur des aérodromes internationaux importants genre Los Angeles ou Hong Kong, pas Rodez, vous pouvez passer une heure à voir des avions de toutes les compagnies et il y a presque toujours KLM et presque jamais Air France. Où est passé Air France ? Quand aux vidéos de cockpit que je regarde avec un œil professionnel, elles me désolent, pas toutes bien sûr mais certaines avec le jeune copilote type bobo parlant avec des ouaieuh, arborant le petit bracelet fluo qui fait "branché" (je suppose), les indispensables Ray-Ban et une barbe de 3 jours (tous les jours de 3 jours) mais surtout qui parle beaucoup trop et de trop de choses au lieu de se concentrer sur ce qu'il a à faire et sur la situation de l'avion à l'instant présent. Quelle image de ce qui était une compagnie prestigieuse mais aussi du pays car tout le monde le voit ! Tout part en sucette et Air France ne fait pas exception. Des vidéos semblables prises dans des compagnies moins "prestigieuses" sont bien plus professionnelles ! C'est triste, ça m'agace profondément et ça me fait honte alors que ça pourrait facilement se corriger.
Agree 100%
@@patolt1628Found the disconnected old fart! 🙄🤦🏼♂️ Bet you’re the type to yell at children who cross your lawn…
As a former Air France pilot I am embarrassed and ashamed to see this happening again 🙈🤷♂️
why ?
no individual represents you.
Unless you're one of those lemmings out there...
It is definately very embarrassing not only for a former AirFrance pilot as you are but also for a French as I am as our national air company seem not to be very trustable. Yes it is a shame to see so badly trained pilots in charge of the life of hundreds souls every day.
And, to think KLM is partnered and basically part of the Air France group.. The Dutch will regret this for a long time to come..
@@PutsOnSneakers what a profoundly stupid and psychopathic comment.
it really is very worrying to see what 2 pilots without any skill can cause to hundreds of passengers that trust them with their lives. It is extremely shameful and the airline needs to take action against both of the pilots. Even the stressed tone of voice indicated that they both really didn't know what they were doing. It is scary to just think that people like that could be flying the plane you're on...This airline has crashed people to their deaths before if I remember well. I would never trust to fly with them
In long haul flying there are 2 big issues unaddressed by the industry: fatigue (worsen by changing time zones) and lack of hand flying, specially for FOs in many airlines. Until those things are fixed, we will continue to see events like this.
Communication is paramount. Tell eachother what's going on figure out what's wrong what to do about it.
@@sharoncassell9358
I think that goes into the fatigue session. Starting skipping steps and not thinking the consequences cause you are tired and want to get on with it. Luckily the comm breakdown didnt brought the plane down.
Some crews don't take the importance of resting during layover seriously. They wanna do trips and might experience peer pressure.
And night flying in general.
This is especially true for AF. Their pilots clearly lacking the soft skills
I am surprised that this happened on a Boeing. For AF 447, it was 'explainable' as handling a joystick is way less visual to the other pilot than controlling a yoke.
@@HeaanLasai no matter how deep psychologically you go, it all boils down to the captain not saying, "I have control" it's pilot error, plural.
The captain should also have said "I'm flying, CP get the check list out for......?"
This negates this from ever happening.
But the investigation is on-going, so all speculation at this juncture.
You see, it’s not the aircrafts fault. It’s human.
*side stick
If both pilots lose situational awareness at the same time, it doesn't matter if they act upon a yoke or a joystick.
I thought CRM was supposed to eliminate things like this. It's scary how many incidents AF has had over the past 20 or 30 years related solely to the crew and training. I'm curious how they stack up vs other flag carrier airlines however.
They actually stack up quite well, the difference is that AF is not shy about making those events public, in order for others to learn about a mistake and not repeat it again.
@@jetaddicted I'm not familiar with European air incident investigation procedures, but do Airlines in Europe (or in France in particular) have a say in whether or not incidents a relating to their aircraft are made public? All final reports from the NTSB in the US or the Canadian TSB are public documents, I can't imagine that Air France has any authority to tell the BEA to keep an incident like this a secret.
@@KevBotM This seems like a good question to bring up to Petter over on "Mentour Pilot" and/or "Mentour Now" (channels on YT)... He's European and awfully keen to share technical and "Industry Insider" information about all things aviation. He might even already have a video discussing it and I've just managed to miss it (so far)... He even encourages people to ask about ANY "weird things" they might want to know about aircraft, the industry, history of avionics, and just life as a pilot in general.
Nothing against Green Dot, of course... I WOULD be willing to speculate, however, that European Investigations are largely public documents, too. This guy sounds Possibly Irish or Scottish by his accent, and would have it kind of tough to get internal investigation info' from France if it wasn't already public to some extent... BUT of course, that's also entirely speculation on my part. ;o)
Oh. Its not an isolated event. Other countries suffer the same problems. They all use the same planes & often have similar attitudes. Humans will be humans. Combative, conflictive and sometimes jealous.
@@gnarthdarkanen7464 petter is Swedish and lives in Spain.
AF seems to be having a lot of these CRM near misses. AF953 in 2015 was another one! Good episode, thanks!👍
👍
Too many CRM issues at AF
@@change_your_oil_regularly4287 I gather that at one time it was nicknamed "Air Chance".
A 3rd pilot observer would bring passenger confidence back into the fuselage…
Air France ≠ Aeroflot593
@@manolollol I meant AF953, Douala, sorry, typo.
INFORMATION THAT FEW PEOPLE KNOW ABOUT THIS INCIDENT :
This flight is schedulded at the worst moment in term of cicardian rythme disruption. The effect of the jet lag is so powerful at this slot that this flight is known amongst Air France pilots to be one of the most challenge in terms of fatigue and physiological stress.
And it is return flight... Follwing a flight with a huge jetlag...
US companies don't take this slot for this reason.
I guess Air France didn't have so much choice.
The flight is long, but not enough to make a relief pilot mandatory so it's a two pilots crew only.
This information is lacking in most of the videos and articles on the subject despite being well known by a lot of aviation professionals.
We're talking about a human phenomenon here. So this information is very important as it played a huge role in this event.
There is a reason why this crew had a risk of having poor CRM at arrival in these conditions.
lets stop blaming fatigue for every accident or incident. All pilots are tired but not all pilots are idiots, too.
@@marks6663 i suppose u were never tired and made a mistake. maybe you could share with us the type of job you have so.
@@marks6663 you have the award for the worst comment
Great comment, would love to have included this in the video.
@@marks6663your comment is such arrogant, ignorant and insulting.
No one said fatigue is to blame for every accident instead of pilots except you.
You're are treating pilots involved in accidents of idiots but you seem to ignore completely the basics about the air medecine found in a simple theorical exam of a PPL that any 16 year old teen can learn !
If your ignorance wasn't so judging and insulting, it would have been a very good thing permitting you to learn rather than insult people, treating them of idiots.
It seems that the only idiot in the room right now may be the one who treat others the others of this...
When I started to watch this I never thought this would be the out come.
As usal another excellent production.
Well done on explaining what happened!
I remember that that day, and what the initial fear was amongst the community -- that something might be wrong with the 777's FMS/FMC. After hearing the ATC audio, I realized that the automation wasn't the cause, rather, it was due to pilot error. BUT, I didn't realize that the pilots were fighting against each other -- something that didn't even cross my mind.
After a day or so when the CDR data was released, it was clear to me that the pilots were fighting each other -- evidenced by the opposite control inputs after the columns decoupled. So, indeed, it was pilot error, compounded by lack of communication. The latter is understandable, especially since the pilots were fearing & fighting for their lives. Regardless, their training should have kicked in, but didn't (why?).
Fans of Airbus planes might not see the benefit of coupled flight control columns / sticks, but the design has saved lives, including flight AF 11.
Airbus FBW planes (almost all) employ independent sidesticks, and one or the other pilot can take full control at the push of a button. Pilot training includes CRM procedures that are designed to prevent opposing flight control inputs, and they work very well.
However, there have been cases (e.g., AF 447) where a very slight, and unnoticed input movement on one sidestick has caused disastrous consequences. If the sidesticks were coupled, the chance is much higher that an inadvertent input by one pilot would be noticed by the other, and corrective actions could then taken.
It's difficult to say if the outcome of AF 447 would have been different if it were to be a Boeing 777, but at least the inadvertent control movement made by the inexperienced co-pilot, would have been noticed by the other pilot.
Very happy that all turned out wel for AF 11l!!
What exactly in the communications with ATC led you to conclude: pilot error?
@@petep.2092 didn’t you watch the video?
@Shevi 777 I did watch the video. There was nothing that I could find in the audio with ATC that would indicate pilot error. My question was to the OP, but since you imply that the answer was contained in the video, you're welcome to answer the question. Frankly, I think the entire comment is bogus since the OP knew that the pilots were in error but then admits not knowing that they were opposing each other… So what was their error as initially but erroneously deduced? Also, the assertion that if AF447 had been fitted with linked controls the pilots would have known what each other were doing is interesting considering this video is about two pilots with linked controls who DIDN'T recognize what the other was doing.
@Burt2481 Flight Management System/Computer
AF447 cannot be blamed on airbus one bit and the side stick is not a valid excuse to put blame on them, but I do believe that they would have recovered in a 777. the first officer (not the reserve fo who put the plane in the stall) would have seen the reserve fo pulling back and felt force, instead of thinking his controls were broken
This has interesting implications - when AF447 happened, a common idea was that the ability to feel the other pilot's inputs would prevent conflicting inputs. Well, here we have an answer - in such case the pilots would just physically force the feedback system into a state where it switches off.
Speaking of, how does Boeing's FBW handle conflicting inputs (decoupled yokes)? Does it command deflections separately on the respective sides (i.e. emulating decoupled yokes without FBW) or does it average inputs and keep the control surfaces working together (i.e. the airbus approach)?
I'd hate to think if that B777 was an Airbus. We might have AF447 all over again, but with a higher death toll.
@@Robert_N I don't think this incident would have happened in an Airbus, for three reasons:
- the Airbus flight stick commands roll rate (in flight), not control surface deflection
- the sticks are not physically linked, so pilots can't physically end up wrestling over small movements as happened here
- the averaging approach (combined with an audible alarm) would have mitigated this situation
I think Xymanek is correct - this incident largely puts to bed the idea that physically linked sticks are the way to solve pilot coordination issues. Clearly they are not.
@@asquithea Agreed bro/broette. Both designs of Boeing and Airbus have their strengths, but I prefer Airbus more. Sticks should not be linked, as coordination may fail as you said. Honestly, before I finished the video and stuff, I thought the 777 had a fly-by-wire error caused by a solar storm or something, as solar activity will increase for the first part of the 2020s, up until 2025. Thankfully, there has been no reported incident of a civilian aircraft malfunctioning from a geomagnetic storm. :)
This accident had happened in airbus (AF447). The main issue is Air France crew not the planes
@@kedmax1055 Crew error but exasperated by the Airbus design.
I remember the conclusions of the investigation into the Air France flight that plunged into the Atlantic, it said the main cause was poor pilot training. This is not a one-off, it's a systematic failure that it appears Air France have not addressed. I will not fly with Air France.
Look up AA587. That was also a pilot training issue.
What about British Midland 092? IIRC they shut down the wrong engine.
No accident has a single cause, including AF447, so blaming pilot training is simplistic. But it is true that one aspect of pilot training has changed across the whole industry, related to stall recovery. That is however often the case, at some scale, following an accident or incident.
@@axel-stephanesmrgrav7036 You will have difficulty in flying with British Midland Airways they went bust in 2012.
@@Fubar_The_WEF and their champion pilots were probable hired by BA...
@@axel-stephanesmrgrav7036 I'm not picking on Air France randomly. Some time ago I did some research on which of the major airlines have the best and worst safety records (in the jet era). A lot had one or two fatal crashes: BA, Lufthansa, KLM (before the merger), LAN, Delta. Only one airline had none: Quantas. Air France had 5 - by far the worst and that's the reason I won't fly with them.
I stopped flying with Air France a long while ago... surely after the 447 crash !
Oh my goodness, throughout all of the Green Dot Aviation videos I’ve gone through thus far, this is honestly the first one that triggered a huge burst of laughter. What an incredible situation to be in where the Captain & F.O. were unaware that they were battling each other for control. I’ve learned so much about aviation from my GD marathon alone.
After just discovering your channel and then binge-watching many of the videos (and previously watching all of Mentour Pilot's videos, in addition to the TV series Air Crash Investigation), I want to suggest ONE common denominator across ALL of these incidents and crashes: bad communication! It seems in most cases, there is always a lack of good, clear communication. It's like human nature is always to assume the other person knows what's going on. Could this be fixed with better pilot training? Or is it simply how we as people behave in our daily lives - we become used to the same old routine, and we assume those around us know what's going?? It's really a terrible trait, and could have avoided many of these accidents.
As a french, "alors" can mean "so" in english and "l'avion a fait n'importe quoi" can mean "the plane did/made a mess. "mode grammar nazi off", the video was good as always (and I don't sleep while watching them), they provide good content while waiting for the next air crash season.
Although they had the breakdown in communication on approach, and they fought each other on the controls, I am impressed that they initiated the go around so soon. We hear so many stories of "get there itis" where this crucial decision is not made and we know how those can end.
So summing up, an aeroplane in perfect working order , and two Air France pilots , result, near catastrophe, which coincidentally is a French word. As you state AF447 was exactly the same scenario, if the French first officer did nothing, the temporary unreliable airspeed scenario would have cleared and all on board would have survived.
exactly right
Pilots from the same airline that crashed flight 447 in 2009. Very basic procedures when one pilot wishes to take control from another. But somehow they didn't do it
AND the Copilot had (insanely) poor basic flying abilities and knowlede, like the one in this episode.
Great content, keep it coming 👍
Thank you! Will do!
How did he not realize he was banking? I get the lack of communication, but I understand why the captain would assume the FO couldn't fuck up something that simple too.
Very interesting video! I was most surprised to learn the actual cause of this incident. You mentioned AirFrance 447 and how the two pilots in that disaster were both trying to fly the plane, unaware of the other's inputs. The AF447 plane was an Airbus, and the the pilot's sticks were not linked and each gave no indication of what the other stick was doing. But in this incident of AF11, the plane was a Boeing and the yokes were linked together, yet the pilots ended up wrestling with each other and not realizing it! If AF11 had been an Airbus, I believe the computer would have averaged the inputs of the two sticks. I wonder what would have happened in that case. I suppose there's no foolproof way to save a plane when the pilots get tunnel vision, as can easily happen in an emergency. I'm very glad this plan landed safely.
Based upon your account, even before the Captain began his inputs, the plane was already banking from inputs made by the FO that he was unaware of. I believe this was the initial problem. So the question is what caused the FO to become perceptually separated from his actions? Did he have a medical episode? What there a fog related disorientation?
Thanks for the video Emmett.
We're one day closer to you getting your license. Thereafter, you'll be Chief Pilot of Green Dot Airlines.
There’s an idea!
The two sirens audible in the ATC clips are firstly the autopilot disconnect and secondly the gear configuration warning. The first sound heard would mean that the autopilot was just disconnected. A second push of the disconnect switch would have canceled the warning.
I think these videos are good for pilots to see for training purposes! Breakdowns of these incidents have to help with understanding the possible causes of different scenarios they could be faced with.
this is why pilotless airplanes are safer
I have done a huge amount of air travel around the world over the years and still do take regular international flights. I find the videos and stories of air crashes from days gone by particularly interesting and somewhat reassuring as it was the air disasters of the past that have made air travel relatively safe now in modern times, we learnt from both the human mistakes and the deficiencies in older technology and engineering. Crashes involving modern airliners are much more disconcerting to watch, whenever I go to fly somewhere I don't worry about whether or not I'm going to make it alive to my destination, the thought that I may not doesn't even cross my mind to be honest, but then some of these videos about very recent incidents remind me that in reality there is never ever a 100% chance that something won't go terribly wrong.
This incident was ridiculous. Good video.
You know a channel rocks when half the subscriber base view a video. Great job Dot!
Thank you!
This mostly means he gets recommended at lot and gets a lot of views from unsubscribed people (which is good because it means the video is reaching new people, which brings in new subscribers, but it is a mistake to assume all viewers are subscribed.)
This is amazing fact telling. Keep up the good work!
Well done, another great video. Interesting to learn about the jammed column mechanism.Blancolirio did a video about the mechanism and how the flight computers can compound or average out the individual column input signals when the columns are decoupled similar to how Airbus handle differing input from each side stick.
I became aware of this trap very early in private flying - when sharing duties with another pilot and there is no clear demarcation on who is doing what. Very easy to miss what should be done or working against each other.
This could have been a disaster and great work from the ATC
Keep up the good work on your side Green Dot
Thanks for another great video, it was well explained and I always enjoy real audio.
Glad you enjoyed it!
me and my dad have been talking about your channel for months, i didn’t even know i hadn’t subscribed because i have watched so much of your content that it always just comes up !! keep up the hard work you must put into these, it’s worth it for people like me :D
Good grief - fear of flying is real with pilots not understanding their instruments, not talking standard English on the radio and not agreeing on who's at the controls.
This airline terrifies me. How do they select and train their pilots?? How does such a FUNDAMENTAL error happen??
"MY PLANE" as you said would have solved this immediately. To think that all those pax and people on the ground were put at risk because these two were fighting each other makes me so mad.
Great video!
Wow, I’m so impressed by how in-depth and well explained this video was!! Keep it up, you just earned another sub!!
You cant blame a pilot for becoming disoriented & tired or getting confused. Do you see how different your own neighborhood looks when snow covers the streets or its dark & rainy at night? It does not look the same.
@@sharoncassell9358 They are pilots for a reason.
Watching this after watching how calm and professional the Air India in New York case was handled is just… I’m speechless, I hope people realise how important teamwork and communication is in this kind of situation
Toujours du travail à faire dans la gestion des ressources de l'équipage chez Air France!
Des prix elevés, un service qui laisse a désirer(pour etre gentil) et des idiots incompétant a bord, vraiment du genie cette compagnie
Pas que chez Air France malheureusement : en tant que Français qui a travaillé aussi bien en France qu'à l'étranger et qui travaille avec différentes nationalités, je peux vous certifier à quel point les Français sont archi-mauvais quand il s'agit de travailler en équipe, voire même archi-cons !
Parce qu'à la limite, d'autres nationalités qui n'auraient pas le sens du travail en équipe sont toujours prêtes à apprendre. Les Français, pas du tout !
teamwork culture and communication are basic things in aviation. Fatigue is something that could justify the occurrence of this. They were supposed to fly with more than two pilots - which should be mandatory on long flights.
You picked up one of the most important cause of this incident: fatigue.
But the regulations do not require a relief pilot to be mandatory for a flight so long as surprising as it might be.
The detail that a lot of people miss is that it is a return flight at the worst time for the cicardian rythme (sleep rythme)
So much that US companies don't take this slot for a good reason: it gives too much fatigue due to sleep rythme disruption and fatigue accumulation.
A wide numbers of pilots said that this flight is one of the most difficult to do in terms of fatigue. One of the most challenging.
It plays a great role in this incident.
Your videos are amazing. It's very scary how easy it is for experienced pilots to be reduced to morons in moments of difficulty.
Look at our country leaders. They are reduced to simple street fighters creating war and cutthroat voting campaigns. Now children play nice.
That's human nature 😮😮😮
Well put. Completely agree. The human element..
This is what happens when pilots stop flying regularly for 2 years. There have been several near misses in the recent past which are clearly related to pandemic response disruptions. Sometimes “solving” one problem creates another.
You mean PLANdemic; get it right.
Plannedemic
Air France pilots never seem to be trained in hand flying their aircraft. Air France 296, Air France 447.. Air France 11, what's next?
Thanks for your detailed reporting and research of this incident. Thankfully, the aircraft safely arrived on the ground. Excellent videography! 👍✈✈👍
Thanks!
@@GreenDotAviation AF has Never "left one up there".
On Airbus, when this happens, a "Dual Input" warning sounds. It has so low priority, however, that it can be surpressed by all other alarms going off.
Glad to see CRM training at Air France is going well after AF447 👍🏾
😂😂😂 JAJAJAJA 🤣
Pilots should ALWAYS be able to both see and feel each other's inputs. Bonin saying "but I've been pulling back the whole time" actually came as a surprise to the other crew of AF447 - it wouldn't have been if they were in a 777, though this case shows that humans never fail to surprise. It's horrifying that in BOTH cases, AF pilots thought exact opposite inputs were necessary.... anyone on a PC would have gotten that right, why do so many pilots ignore the artificial horizon? Anyway that's a meatware issue, not firmware, so can fixed with training. The joystick idea - especially averaging them with the most subtle conflict warning - is dangerous.
The pilots were not aware of the unlinking feature of the control columns and they weren’t trained on it. AF had to contact Boeing to get more info on it. Reminds me of the infamous MCAS.
"Both control columns were in perfect working order, it appears it was the pilots who were not." DAMN.. lol
"I have control". Simple words that weren't spoken in this incident.
After 447 from years ago and this flight serious questions need to be asked of AirFrance’s training and standards. There appears to be a lack of system knowledge, CRM and hand flying.
I only watch every video with Audio included. Thanks for making these!
The pilots were fighting LOL :DD
I thought a warning would sound when the computer detects both inputs working against eachother
That’s on Airbus aircraft
It's so sad flight 447 with two hundred and sixteen passengers died in vain, why? Because Air France flight 11, has made the same mistakes as in 2009.
It is sickening and blindingly obvious nothing much has been learned from that crash. (By air France)
What makes it hundreds of times worse, it's the same carrier, making the same mistake.
I am however very thankful that on this occasion, no one has died.
That doesn't account for the mental health, stress, anxiety, and fear they will have suffered on this rollercoaster ride.
The pilots, and air France should be ashamed of themselves.
I hope the BEA investigation, (still ongoing) has a major shake up for air France, when their investigation is concluded.
It's not so simple and linked to the AF447 that it seems.
Many pilots stressed out that Air France is thé only Airline that takes this sector at this time for a return flight.
And there is a reason for it.
It is the worst time for a return flight in terms of cicardian rythme disruption. The sleep rythme is the most disrupted and the fatigue is at the highest at the arrival in Paris. Adding to that, even if the flight is long, it is not long enough to put a relief pilot in the crew, according to regulations.
According to pilots having made this sector, this flight is the most difficult in terms of fatigue and sleep disbalance.
It is a very different situation from the AF447. No ergonomy issues and alerts du to flight stick specifics and alternate law etc...
It is a pure story of fatigue, cicardian cycle disruption resulting in a pour CRM (Crew Ressource Management). Poor CRM due to fatigue and cicardian rythme disruption leading to confusion and loose control happen to any Company in any type.
This specific event was over covered by the media as nowadays ATC communications are easily accessible and the pilot believed to have a control issue on radio.
So the médias quickly interpreted it as something close to disaster.
The thruth is that it's not.
You can read the report from the BEA online. The aircraft never went close to a catastrophy but there was a real incident. The pilots had pour CRM leading them to confusion and being "behind the plane", making opposite actions on the control with the lack of communication that the pour CRM gives. It gave excessive input, feeling that the controls had issues, go around procedure wrongly done, etc.
The terms "almost disaster" "like AF447" etc are sensational and interresting for the médias. But it's not a good representation of what happened. There is no real link to the AF447 because pour CRM leading to incidents happen in all companies each year.
Maybe the slot need to be changed for this flight and or a relief pilot is to add, emphasis on CRM to be rised in training.
Because this incident has nothing to do with a dynamic stall of an A330 with wrong pitots tubes with pilots lacking training in the middle of the storms due to tropical convergence line at night after departure with 3 crew members.
This incident has more to do with the fact that the Covid crisis reduced the recent practice and put enormous pressure on all companies so that unadaptated slot with no relief pilots are maintained.
The Covid crisis was followed by a big rise of incident like near miss, loss of situation awareness, loss of control etc.
The pilots never had a break so long without flying in the entire history of aviation ! When you know that companies had to burn money on making fly empty aircraft just to make them work the minimum of time and to keep crew proefficiency to at least the minimum for the pilots to not loose their qualifications and licences, you understand the impact.
Anyway the pilots of this flight suffered from fatigue, cicardian rythme trouble and lacked of CRM.
@@bonbondesel I do not disagree with you.
I'm doing a longer reply,.
But for now, the only thing you've missed, or not touched on.
Is the very unknown "boredom factor"
This mixed with, fatigue, hight stress and anxiety levels, and bad CRM, make for a very volatile mix.
@@bonbondesel excuses
@bonbondesel The crew were inadvertently acting in opposition on the flight controls due to a lack of CRM. In that regard this flight IS like AF447, even though the reason the pilots ended up looking like The Three Stooges is different. Claiming that there is no similarity to AF447 because CRM-related accidents happen in all companies each year is not a valid argument as the prevalence of CRM-deficiency incidents has no bearing on the degree of similarity to AF447. In fact, inadvertent opposition is a rare enough occurrence to make both flights notable.
The news media uses terms like "near disaster" because they are in the advertising business-not the news business-and attention-grabbing sensational news is their way of exposing the reader/viewer to the third party advertising that pays their electric bill. If the news is not attractive enough, they will recruit Pinocchio to make it so. Still, to say that the flight was nowhere near serious danger when the control column's safety break mechanism activated-twice-due to the pilots' shenanigans you have to be unaware or recklessly dismissive of how quickly such control opposition can jeopardize continued safe flight and landing. An Egypt Air 767 nose dived into the sea when the control columns similarly disconnected to independent left & right control channels, albeit the FO was desperately suicidal.
Did the BEA Preliminary Report cite a lack of recent flight experience due to COVID-19 as a contributing factor, or are you speculating about it?
@@petep.2092 It's crazy as people on internet want to judge, simplify things and make people say what they didn't say to argue.
I'm gonna make it brief as I don't have the time to make endless debate, I'm pretty sick having Covid.
I never said the slot of the flight, the fact that it is the worst moment for cicardian rythme with a flight long but not obliging to add a relief pilot is the sole explanation to the incident nor excuse the poor CRM.
I did not even suggested it.
I did not either said that because it can happen elsewhere, AF or and these pilots have no responsibilities in that.
You put that in my mouth.
Now, I say it again to be clear once and for all:
I just wanted to add this information and it's a first end information coming directly from Air France pilots experienced with this flight.
Yes there was a phenomenon of over mediatization and the flight was not close to disaster, it's not writren in the BEA reports that the flight came close to it. Never. Media said it.
it was analyzed like this by some aviation experts like for example "ATE" airliner pilot, former US Navy F-18 pilot, former French rafale and other figther jets pilot and conceller in aviation safety.
If you want to disregard or contradict these kind of expertises, it's up to you.
And yes events like that happen in a companies, but not all come to media this way.
Yes it is my humble opinion that Covid can have played a role in pilots proefficiency and also yes aviation experts and pilots suggest that the rise of incidents recently could be related to that.
Now I'm sick of people trying to confront only for pleasure on internet and asking for more and more over the time to try to prove they are right
I just wanted to add an information that is important because in any flight, context play a role.
Now if you want to use it to interpret as excuses to mistakes of the crew or Air France training, in order to blame Air France and the crew, go ahead, any pilot or aviation expert know that incidents are not so simple,
But let me ask you back the question :
You want me to quote the BEA reports because you think I'm saying wrong things to give excuses to AF or pilots, OK, and you ? IN WHICH OFFICIAL REPORT DID YOU READ THAT THE INCIDENT IS LINKED TO AF447 ?
I'm just having the same demands as you have towards me ! Answer this because I read the reports and it's not mentionned anyway
I just wanted to add an information but on internet people are there to blame and to create confrontation and endless debate.
Now if you have an information about this specific flight, go ahead.
I brought one with no will of discrediting or judging anyone or even excuse anyone. The issue is that people are there for that.
And it's exhausting. It becomes difficult to just bring an informations without being constently sollicitated agressively to take part in sterile debates you don't want.
Over.
Very good video. Concise and to the point, monologue well written and delivered.
Thanks for the high quality video again. keep it up;)
Thanks!
Ollie: I have control
Stan: Ok Ollie, I have control...
This vid is glossing over the most important part of the cause. How did the fo manage to bank the plane 6 degrees and then thought the plane had done it by itself? It doesn't make sense that he'd just made a series of small corrective manoeuvres but then didn't realise he was banking.
That's spacial disorientation.... Your brain fools you into doing the wrong manoeuvres 😮😮😮
The FO mistake was not looking at the display 😢😢😢
A glossed over issue is that to FO doesn't know how to fly.
How can he not know that he is making the plane turn left?
WTH.
I can completely sympathize with these pilots, as the fog of being “in the moment” differs greatly from the clarity of “after the fact”. They instantaneously became focused 101% on saving the plane. That instant when your stomach hits the back of your throat & that cold electric shock shoots through your body happens, everything around you fades out & your brain becomes tunnel visioned on figuring out how to fix whatever seems broken at that instant.
Tunneling and not following the procedures , classic
Yes.
No call informing tower of the control problem and need to go around. I was surprised the captain didn’t take control sooner and it’s shocking that he failed to announce to My Aircraft. I remembered 447. Clearly the French are behind the curve in CRM.
To be honest we don't even know what CRM means ...
And that's why you should always say "I have control" when you take control of the airplane. This is both embarrassing and terrifying at the same time. It simply shouldn't happen.
I had rather thought that with all the focus on CRM, cockpit technology, and awareness these sorts of scenarios would be a thing of the past.
This is a crazy one. You could hear the panuc during the recording.
Panicking is human nature....training is supposed to be the countermeasure for it 😮😮😮
I don't fly the B777, nor have I ever flown the B777, apparently the Air France pilots are weak on basic airmanship, they lack the discipline required for CRM, and don't use standard fraseology. This is an obvious and serious breakdown in safety and needs to be dealt with at once.
So WHAT are you flying, and for whom? Just so I can learn where to get pilot training...
@@axel-stephanesmrgrav7036 I am currently flying B747s.
For your pilot training, you could obtain you pilot's certifications via several flight schools available throughout the USA if you are here, otherwise I'll suggest that you check with your local aeronautical authorities, to find out a good flight school for you.
@@afreightdogslife The 777 cockpit is not that different than 747. this incident is on Air France. many other airlines like United and British Airways have also used the 777 for a long time, and yet they have not had this kind of incident.
@[Blank] I just watched the video once again because I had forgotten the story. Again, I stand by my previous statement. You are correct stating that these other airlines use the same type of aircraft, the B777-300, and they don't seem to suffer the kind of incidents that AF is suffering from. It appears to be a pilot induced problem due to a lack of enforcement of CRM and other training issues and not aircraft related.
Thank You. I think it would be wise to have an alarm sound if both pilots are trying to fly the plane at the same time, that way they can be reminded that only one person should be flying the aircraft.
Air France need to sort this.
Once again they’re not training sufficiently towards CRM.
In an emergency situation, the Pilot Not Flying should place their hands flat on the cockpit display, where the Pilot Flying can see them, and say 'My hands are off' or 'Les mains sont levees', or something like that, so it's absolutely clear that there is only one person flying the plane.
Usually the one flying must say "My Plane" to let the other pilot know that he is in full control 😮😮😮😮
Look forward to detailing departure from ideal cockpit teamwork. I've watched many landings where procedures were followed. I know AF447 was a textbook case of how not to work as a team. But I can, as a rank amateur, see some departures from "normal". Cockpits should resemble a fast moving game, with tons of jabber about things happening. Frankly, I think the First Officer was too green for these conditions. It isn't shockingly rare for DeGaulle landings to be tricky. I bet a few hundred times a day, pilots all over the world manage these conditions.
Great explaination, love the visuals from the flight sim! I'm always wondering why (mostly french) pilots keep communicating in their native language via ATC? Even in an emergency situation, doesn't other aircraft and pilots who might don't speek french need to be aware of it?
If you spoke the same native language as the controller in a situation like this, then I think that speaking it is totally appropriate. The only thing that matters here is clear communication between ATC and the flight crew… whether that be in French, German, Japanese etc.
The French refuse to speak English unless absolutely necessary...
@@lewbro1234 no, it's actually extremely against regulations.
@@astridvvv9662 so if you were placed in an emergency situation, and you and the controller both spoke the same language, but you insisted on speaking English because of ‘rules’, and you ended up crashing or getting into a loss of separation situation etc (and you survived)… you would have a very difficult time explaining that to a magistrate as to why you decided to communicate in English. If the safest course of action is to speak your local fluent language then a court of law would back you 100%. The pilot in command has authority to break any rule they want if it leads to a safe outcome in an emergency situation.
I was wondering about that too. I understand that the emergency crew speaks French to ATC, but the revoking of the climbing clearance to the other air France plane that was taking off was done in French too. For other aircrew around the airport who don't speak French that could have been important information if it had been done in English.
What's up with AF training culture??? As a present student pilot , first lesson from my CFI was the handling of controls in the plane between the two pilots. Verbally acknowledge who is taking control between us then immediate hands off for the pilot not flying. This is basic first lesson #1 that you never forget , unless you're an AF pilot ?? Something is terribly wrong at Air France
This is probably the most French way to bring down a plane
Reminds me of Air France 447 and Air Asia 8501. I thought something like this would never happen again, yet here we are.
just started watching but i’m sure it’s gonna be great!
Good to see you here dlc!
Just shows communication is so important
I need someone to explain to me why the ATC abandoned the international language of aviation which is English even for the non-distressed flight.
I understand France prefers to use their own language for perhaps local airports but CDG is a busy international airport and other pilots on the same frequency do not necessarily speak French. Other pilots need to understand what is being said to maintain situational awareness and save lives! Do the French value nationalism over basic safety considerations?
France is far from being the sole country to speak the national language also in busy international airports. In Italy it's the same, in Spain it's the same, in Portugal it's the same, etc etc. You've got big hubs where pilots and ATC can speak Italian, Spanish, etc.
It's like this in numerous place in the world and has nothing to do with nationalism. In any country it's easier to communicate in the mother's tongue language than in another. French pilots don't have more difficulties than the others to communicate in English in US busy airports. French are not as good as German in English concerning accent and grammar, but they have no specific issues in standard English for aviation.
The fact that they speak French in France has nothing to do in this incident.
And this airport did not "abandonned" the international language as anyone can communicate in English even French crews who often do it to keep proefficiency.
And by the way, Charles De Gaulle airport did not have more issues than others because of misunderstanding with French communication. I don't even know if such issues happened here the last decade...
@@bonbondesel SURE adds to everyone elses "situational awareness" and safety. This stupidity leads to Tango Uniform incidences. cut the excuses!
@@bartsolari5035 thanks for your severe judgment on France ! It's very kind and productive to use terms like stupidity etc...
Thanks for the very polite exchange that would have sure been the same from you in real life with the respect of social codes you seem to be mastering 😉
@@bonbondesel I call it as I see it. you did make some important statement as to what may lead up to these incidents. What is of concern is that these issues are "known" but at times NOT dealt with. As to AF, it is my belief that AF has the equipment and training and record to be with the best carriers in Europe. I do NOT severely judge the French, but these two pilots were not following...who is flying, who is monitoring.
I hold the FAA in the U.S. in contempt with laxs oversight claiming budget issues. The U.S. can piss away money with a 20 yr war in Afghanistan, but CANNOT fund the FAA to do its job, rubbish. Boeing self certifies the MAX and buries the existence and effects of MCAS, pure lies. There are way too many things that are dealt with "after" people die. BTW, the French do have a sense of their culture and I applaud that. Americans seem to be at each others throats.
Bonne journee mon ami!
@@bonbondesel Using another language than standard Aviation English in the radio communication environment of an international airport is a MAJOR safety issue. We use English for ATC communication for the important reason that ALL pilots on the same frequency can understand the whole traffic situation = situational awareness. If French ATC and French pilots use their own French language to communicate in such an environment it is not only against the LAW of ICAO. It is also disregarding an important safety aspect. And by the way one more point: French is not only a language - it's also a philosophy of life. (France is a GREAT nation - French "is" (WAS) the language of international diplomacy.
It would help aviation safety in a threefold way if Air France AND French ATC would be required to adhere to English communication all the time: -1- All the remaining pilots in an ATC environment would understand what is going on. -2- The French pilots would be introduced to standard intra-cockpit (cross-pilot) communication procedures that are up to international safety standards. When they have to switch to English they would be reminded that they are NOT at home with their family and NOT in a restaurant, but in a professional environment where safety and CRM (cockpit resource management) are most important. -3- By using the official aviation terms and cockpit relevant expressions ALL the time while in the cockpit, they would be more fluent in Aviation English when communicating with ATC in those countries where English is strictly used.
The real problem here is how similar this situation is to AF447. What should truly be brought to attention are the FACTS that, after being startled, the first officer uncontrollably pitched up the plane just like what happened a decade ago. If it weren't for this being a Boeing 777, the Captain may not have been able to wrestle the plane back from the dangerous pitch-up.
It's also quite incredible that the Captain didn't announce "I have control" like in the AF447 case.
I feel like there could be a real problem with Air France's safety training.
If a plane was a ouija board
12:58 "in this case, both controls were in working order. It's the pilots that were not". Zingers fly quick in the thunderdome.
Nice work , and the accident itself IS interesting!!
Well this is not an accident, only an incident that could have been unnoticed if they hadn’t hit the PTT button.
This was what happened to AF447. Miscommunication between pilots until they crashed into Atlantic Ocean
Great video, as always. I thought that the standard language for ATC was English even with a French speaking crew flying into France.
No it is not. And you are true for the US, standard language is English but not used by ATC
You're right, the ICAO has established English as the language of aviation and pilots, mechanics, flight controllers, dispatchers, etc. have to demonstrate english language proficiency to an acceptable level for that job. France ATC are not the only ones who violate that convention. I've heard ATC use Arabic on some trans-Mediterranean routes. They do so with self-centered disregard for the deterioration in safety that ensues and the peril to other english-only-speaking flights, which lose at least some situational awareness due to not knowing what the non-English speaking aircraft are doing or can be expected to do.
This again. I've had so many arguments about ICAO languages. Normally with Americans.
@@bayard42350 Rubbish. Internationally the language IS English (even with an accent)
@@watchtellyinuk actually not, there are six languages allowed according to ICAO. Arabic, French, Spanish, Russian, Chinese and English.
It’s insane that what happened outside of Paris over a decade ago almost happened again with the same company!
What are they teaching Air France pilots?
Modern Planes should have some kind of alarm/mechanism to prevent inputs from both pilots at the same time.
Why isn't something like that already implemented?
This could be as simple as an audible warning like "Input conflict!" or an "I have control"-button on both yokes with an indicator on which one is active at the moment.
Having a "fly by wire"-plane with coupled yokes or inputs that can cancel each other out makes no sense at all!
I don't see a single situation in which this arrangement could be useful.
And where did the pilots get the idea that wrestling with the controls was going to do anything, anyway?
Does the "fly by wire"-system even provide any feedback with resistance that can be overpowered by the pilots?
As I understand it, pulling the yoke harder shouldn't have any influence on what the actuators of the control surfaces are doing and their status shouldn't have any effect on the resistance of the yoke.
There is smth like that in Airbus.
@@michapeka2800 Jup, that seems to be the case!
I found an interesting article from an-aviation named "How does the control joystick in Airbus aircraft work?"
I would post the link, but RUclipss horrible censorship prevents that, even if I competely disable it...
All it takes is 3 words, "I have control." More training for that captain I think.
How embarrassing! Very well explained. Thank you for such a great incident.
We have a wide body international First Officer disconnecting the automation to hand fly. Then while hand flying the First Officer manipulated the controls commanding aileron movement, the airplane complies with the control column deflection and begins turning. Then the First Officer does not recognize their own control column inputs , is unable to recover so elects to go around. During the go around this pilot verbally misdiagnosis the event which brings the Captain into a pilot flying capacity from having been pilot monitoring. Now we have two experienced international wide body pilots simultaneously being the pilot flying with neither being the pilot monitoring. Further they individually input opposing forces on their respective yokes battling for control to the point where the breakout/disconnect mechanism on two occasions activated. No wonder they were exhausted and stressed; that sounds like a lot of work. Amazing, simply amazing ………. I am simply stunned.
As I was watching the clips, I was constantly saying WTF WTF. I'm still saying WTF.
Why would one disconnect the A/P at 1,500’ when IMC in the first place and expected cloud brake at 300’. This was the first red flag when watching . ( PS , was B777 qualified ) Like Asiana , one cannot design aircraft to be flown by these type of people. Not to mention adherering to company SOPs or best practices. I was not perfect by a long shot, but still , the mind boggles !
If There never should be two pilots flying at the same time then it should be obvious that the system shouldn't allow the possibility of dial flight unless an override is selected. The Default could easily be created to be one input only. This would be so simple to avoid also simply having an illuminated warning of synchronization alert on the flight sticks. I would say that that's as much as a blatant design flaw as it was pilot error
This incident would be considered 101 "my airplane" student pilot days.
Okay this might sound like a stupid question but i thought all radio contact had to be in English? I believe i heard something like that while watching mayday.
I wonder if the passengers ever realized the fine line they were walking between life and death? It doesn't seem as if from the back it would have appeared anything other than a regular go around.
@@bartsolari5035 Omg have you ever had Air France coffee? It's like dark acid!
I'm not trying to be contentious but what's going on with some AF pilots? This, 447 obviously and the overshoot of flight 358 plus many others going back through the years - you don't really expect this number of pilot error incidents from a major flag carrier airline