Ehhh...Oscar west played in a tougher time less offensive lee way with the same amount of defensive pressure, actually arguably more defensive pressure
It's like MJ has 2 eyes, they're opened and looking forward, he's waiting for a pick with the man guarded by Shaq, his IQ is above 30, and Shaq is 7 foot tall or something, crazy!!!!
1984-1985 was Jordan's rookie season. 1985-1986 was Jordan's injury season which he played 17 games and was held back by management minute-wise early in his comeback from injury. Also, after that season, Jordan's starts climbing towards 50% the next season at 48%. For the next 5 seasons Jordan surpasses 50% and is awfully close in 92-93 at 49.5%. Where as those same 7 sevens for Woolridge, Orlando only averages over 50% two times, compared to Jordan 5. Orlando regressed while MJ improved.
before.. the finals you can't get a basket without a bruise because people before are hungry for championship like detroits they punished the bulls with brute force and intense plays their defense is so suffucating that you can't even barely move.. if, kobe has to experience all that MJ has to endure I don't know what will happen Lol.. good thing players now are way well mannered than before haha
cheeze zlayer i wouldn't call it brute force, because the biggest guys weren't on that team, they hit when you when you went inside, and they hit you again so you wouldn't get an and-1
exactly you have to go inside to get pts, otherwise can't get basket, right? the point is basketball in the 90's use brute force just to stop the offense their so hungry their will and determination drove them to use these kind of strategies w/c is alot different from today..
mj is simply better than kobe, kobe is one of the best but he is not as good so please stop making arguments that were never there in the first place kobe fans mj is the best of the best
I am a Kobe fan and I agree completely. He was very very good and one of the reasons is because he took after MJ’s work ethic and play style. He was my favourite player of all time. But he was basically a duplicate of MJ, MJ was the true original.
Wanted to say, I have based a lot of my recent research on comparing Jordan's first 9 years verse Lebron's, who they play against and what peak (5 year sequential span) numbers Jordan and Lebron put up during their first 9 years. Which why I harped so much in our convo on players Jordan played against from 1985 to 1993. I have since reverted back to documenting decades now due to our conversation.
Kobe said that when Jordan spun on him he knew it was coming, but Jordan was so strong that he couldn't stop it. He said he swatted him away like a fly.
Magic. Kareem. Hakeem. Bird. Big O. Shaq. MJ. LeBron. Wilt. Russell. That's the top 10. MJ played against 5 of em at one point or another. He's played against SO many good players...
If you're talking about 1998, Jordan was hurt all season long such as the recurring back problems, wrist injury, and the knee problems he's had forever. I hate bringing up injuries when both players played through them. Also, Reggie guarded MJ in 1998 and vice versa.
Do you know why folks say what they say about him? ‘You couldn’t win any points if you said something bad about him’ -Andrea Kremer Chicago Bureau When it comes to Michael Jordan we were in some sought of national denial, everybody made money through Michael Jordan’ -Media Personality "They are trying to sell today's game, not the game from the 1960's, 70's or 80's." -Wilt Chamberlain on the NBA in 1996
Talking about a player who has won 5 titles, plus a Regular Season MVP award & 4 All-Star Game MVPs (counting 2009 with Shaquille O'Neal) and two-time Finals MVP.
there are things that only Kobe can do too. Kobe outscored a whole team by the 3rd quarter and he scored 81 points on live tv. and while scoring as high as that he won his games when Jordan scored 60+he lost both games.
and just cause he's just the closest player i have ever seen to jordan. he has the greatness to back it up. you know what really pisses me off, when a player who has to join a team with 3 allstars and wins 1 ring with them gets mentioned as a top 10 legend LOL. its a slap in the face to other legends who have played this game long enough and have won the hardware to be put ahead of lebron.
@Aries Marquis "You forgot about Toranto and Van Couver" 1st of all I didn't forget about 'em. Secondly they're spelled "Tor[o]nto" and "Vancouver" (1 word). Third, if those 2 contributed to MJ's titles and making his era allegedly "weak", then they also contributed towards the 1st half of the 00s being weak also if that's the case..
P.S. Kareem helped an expansion team win a championship 2-3 yrs in their existence...Kareem could have carried anyone! He's the absolute most dominate player ever! Period! From high school to retirement from the NBA!
of course the opponent's coach will say that because he just got scored on the 2nd greatest performance in NBA history. Kobe was defended on that game, yes it wasn't the best defensive team but they still had big athletic NBA players on him and he still scored 81.
@Aries Marquis con't "Jordan was also more [naturally inclined] to [let] the game come to him [and not] overplay his hand. Whereas Kobe tends to [force] the action, especially when the game isn't going his way. When his shot's off, he'll just continue to [pound away] relentlessly. Michael, on the other hand, would [shift his attention] to [defense], [passing], or [setting screens] to [help the team] [win] the game." -- Phil Jackson: "Eleven Rings: The Soul of Success"; May 21, 2013
Miami Heat Coach Pat Riley, who coached Abdul-Jabbar for eight seasons in Los Angeles, once said in a toast recounted in Sports Illustrated, "Why judge anymore? When a man has broken records, won championships, endured tremendous criticism and responsibility, why judge? Let's toast him as the greatest player ever." -NBA.com, Encyclopedia: Playoff Edition
So the PERSPECTIVE is that the faster the game, the higher the scoring, and the more rebounding=less defense which means that the 2000s have the second best defensive era in basketball, first being the 50s! Third being the 90s.
The 90s were tougher than the 2000s in terms of more dominant big men and defense was better. 2000s has better guards and an emerging small forwards who score just as much as a SG. The 80s were tougher than 90s and 2000s combined and dont forget jordan played in the 80s and he put up better than numbers than in the 90s. Kobe has this unique mentality of one game going on a monster streak and then the next game he does terrible. Jordan always impressed me in every game. He was very smart
Tim Duncan: 2 MVP's, 3 Final MVP's, 1 Rookie of the year along with one of those Final MVP's. Kobe: 1 MVP, 2 Final MVP's, 1 Olympic Finalist, Now count the total and tell me where they both stand and who's ahead of who...... If you say Kobe then there's nothing left to do but shake my head and not even reply to you.......
Once LeBalding Flopper and/or Durant have 5 rings, then you can compare them w/ Kobe. - when John Wooden was asked who's better, Alcindor or Walton. Wooden replied: 'Who has more championships." - when Larry Bird was asked who's better, Jordan, Magic, or him = same answer as Wooden.
Let's see...D-Wade's Heat facing Kobe's Lakers, Lebron's Cavs, Carmelo's Nuggets, Big 3 Celtics, Big 3 Spurs, D-Rose's Bulls, Durant's Thunder=those 8 teams! They had HOFers on EVERY team, and they were the 121 best players in the world...Your opponents know you, and yet you STILL dominate?? THAT deserves honor my friend! Welcome to history!
"If they say the numbers don't lie, then Kareem is the greatest ever to play the game," Thomas said. "And I'm a big proponent of that. … No disrespect to Jordan, but he won in the '90s. And if the '80s are the golden era, then the person who dominated the NBA in the '80s and the '70s was Kareem Abdul-Jabbar." Isiah Thomas (March 23, 2012). "NBA's best all-time? You be the judge". Chicago Tribune
MJ has always won when it came to the Finals and Olympics. Kobe and Lebron have lost in the Finals. 2004 Bronze Medal MJ was a perfectionist the others are chasing a dream.
Grant's Magic was getting beat by 38 in that game he got injured. Kerr was a professional and a great role player as well was Grant. nobody's taking that away from them. Also, Derek Fisher made it to the Finals with OKC. The 93-94 Bulls overachieved and added players. The reason why they only made the second round is because they had no Jordan hitting clutch shots and drawing doubles. don't blame the loss on Hue Hollins either. There was a game 7 and the Bulls lost by 10.
Jordan assisted to Paxon, but Kobe assisted to Fisher to clutch against Orlando, and Ron Artest to clutch against the Celtics, plus the lovely ally-oop to Shaq against the Trailblazers (that's a bonus because it's my fav. Lol) Jordan isn't the only one that has ever assisted, Kobe's assists are just overlooked, which is why the career differences on assists is .5, which is nothing! If Jordan was smart, why shoot a ton of times and keep losing as folks accused Kobe of doing?
jordan won his game where he scored 69 pts and grabbed 18 rebounds the toronto game where he scored 81 Sam mitchell the raptor's coach admitted to allowing Kobe to shoot and try to shut down his team mates by the time they decided to play defense on him, he was already locked onto the rim
most of his points were 3 pointers. or mid range jumpers given he had alot of free throws and were able to drive to the hole anytime he wants. Thats because he's really just a great player he can drive whenever he wants in games.
In these white shirts he was something else !!maybe i am wrong but he seemed even more athletic wearing the white shirts!!! Mj for ever !!! Kobe was the best replica ,but Mike was the prototype !!!
Melo (6'8) Tracy McGrady (6'8) Paul Pierce (6'7) Reggie Miller (6'7) Caron Butler (6'7) Jamal Crawford (6'5) Clyde Drexler (6'7) Andre Iguodala (6'6) Sharpshooter Ray Allen (6'5) Lebron (6'8), Kevin Durant (6'8) Vince Carter (6'6) Scottie Pippen (6'8) JORDAN (6'6) Manu Ginobilli (6'6) Let me slap in the midgets: D-Wade (6'3 2 rings, Finals MVP), Chauncy Billips (6'3 Finals MVP, 1 Ring) Allen Iverson (5'11 MVP, embarrassed Jordan as a rookie) Russell Westbrook (6'3 Finals appearance) NEED I cont?
It's hard to call someone a ball hog if they once got 6th in assist in the league, especially if you're the best and when you do pass it they turn the ball over. Opposing teams were taking advantage of the bull's when Scottie Pippen was injured. Same thing happened with Westbrook being injured on Thunder. The teams just pounced....
Having Kobe as the 8th best player ever is not ridiculous. Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Bird, and arguably Shaq can be said have had better careers.
The late Wilt Chamberlain said it best: "If Michael was here right now, I would say to him: When you are so great that the league tries to change the rules in an attempt to stop you then you can claim you are the best ever. Every rule change I have seen during your career has been meant to enhance your game (such as shortened 3 point line, hand checking rules & well defined rules regarding illegal defenses)."
Wilt Chamberlain played in 9 teams league with 10-15 great/good players. Him and Bryant are the most overrated players ever. The 60s was all about Bill Russell.
He brought Jordan up like I do: not to say Jordan IS the greatest, but to rival that opinion, which most believe. And plus my boy, Scottie, brought Jordan in the mix as well. Lol..and bro, Wilt averaged 16 pts against Kareem while Kareem averaged almost 32! He couldn't stop Kareem man! Not many could! Kareem was a punisher at his position!
@Aries Marquis con't "Michael was more likely to [break through] his attackers with [power and strength], while Kobe [often tries] to [finesse] his way through pileups. Michael was also [stronger], with [bigger shoulders] and a [sturdier frame]. He also had [larger hands] that allowed him to [control the ball] better and make subtle fakes." -- Phil Jackson: "Eleven Rings: The Soul of Success"; May 21, 2013
I hate it when people say that. Basketball is a team sport, there is not 1 winner on a team. Kobe won 5 championships as a part of the Lakers and the Lakers won 5 championships, 3 of them when they also had Shaq on their team. I know the Laker has 16 championships in total.
5 regular season MVP's 6 finals MVP's 11 scoring titles 63 points on the best team in the nba at the time BEFORE 25 years old. not some weak ass knicks or raptors team. Win the Dunk contest twice. The list goes on..........
Jordan in his prime vs kobe in his prime would be a better rivalry. Both were great players. However....did anyone notice how many steps jordan took after he bounced the ball only once ???? Lmao
The Bulls, as a team, usually dominated the wack competition and the bench stepped leaving Jordan to be more of a facilitator or end things early. The rest of the Bulls, save Scottie usually struggled more against the better teams. In fact, Jordan shot a better percentage than his teammates in these situations.
Jordan upped his offense input because his teammates shot worse in the playoffs and had to carry his teams scoring-wise. Wilt and Dr.J's play decreased, while Magic and Kareem strayed closer towards their regular season play.
6 titles against nobodies 10 scoring titles shooting a million times per game vs 1 of 9 Finals appearances vs stacked teams full of HOFers??? Jerry would have had a field day in the 90s!!!
BTW, you have lost your mind if you don't think the 92' Bulls or 96' Bulls werent two of the best teams ever. They would have definitely won titles in the 80's, 70's, 60's, 2000's any era. With the 96' Bulls probably the best team ever
no one ever said if he gets one ring he'll be "solidified". people said he needs to get one ring to even be in the conversation. now that he has his one ring, after 9 years, he can be a part of the conversation but he still needs more for any real consideration. being a hof'er doesn't make you a top 10 player. lbj is definitely a future hof'er barring any serious injuries but a top 10 like he and his fans think? not even close yet.
I can't blame Hue anymore and here's why. Teams have to adjust to the crapcakes that are given to them. They either respond to adversity (like years later in 1998 when the Bulls lost the 3-2 edge in game six, only to rebound in game 7) or fall flat. the funny thing about Grant is that if Jordan never retired and if Grant stayed, his legacy would be looking differently.
As far as free-throws go, nobody's denying Jordan got a fair share of the calls, at least not me. Most stars do. However, Jordan went to the free-throw line because, especially in his early years, he took it to the basket with so much wreckless abandon. Many players at the time, like Dominque Wilkins, commented on how that style would cost Jordan years in the league. MJ also had a varying amount of moves and fakes that led to opponents fouling him a lot.To me it's a combo of refs and initiating.
@Aries Marquis So I guess kobe was also injured when he shot: * 41.1 FG% 6'2 Eric Snow in the '01 Finals * 44.2 FG% in the '02 Finals * 38.3 FG% in the '04 Finals * 39.1 FG% in the '08 Finals (vs brick for feet Pierce, and J. Posey (who 40 yr old MJ scored 35 on with a bruised thigh LOL) * 43.3 FG% in the '09 Finals (vs JJ Reddick & Courtney Lee LOL) * 40.0 FG% in the '10 Finals
Dude, it goes both ways. If there was no handchecking, MJ wouldn't have been the defensive force he was back then. He wouldn't have been the DPOY for sure. So pick your poison I guess. Kobe and MJ's games are so similar that I think that Kobe would have done fairly well in the 90s. He IS one of the greatest players of all time, so I'd imagine he'd adjust his game to fit with the 90s era.
I would definitely say MJs a better dunker, but not by a very large margin... I actually think Kobes really underrated as a dunker, watch some of his stuffs they're pretty sick
My bad. However, I literally just heard about that very same retirement today and how exhausted MJ was after that 3 peat. Physically and mentally exhausted. First, he won a ring, won another ring, went to the Olympics and won a gold, won another ring and then finally retired. So I'm not going to say he WOULDN'T have won a ring, but I'm also not going to say he would have. There's no way to know and playing the "what if" game is pointless. Point is, we never know what would have happened.
I don't think my argument was that West was better than Jordan, but that West was was a beast at his position, giving Jordan reasons to study some of his game. Never said Jordan wasn't stronger or faster than West, I was just pointing out the fact that West was scoring in his era the same way Jordan was scoring in HIS era. Now you say high scoring and rebounding is inflation? Welcome to the LOWEST rebounding in history (last 13 yrs)and SECOND lowest scoring in history (last 13 years)
What those 90s jockers don't realize is that stats show that defenses are at an ALL-TIME HIGH in the NBA, and that includes the 90s! Thus, the decrease in PPG per season in the NBA...HOW was the 90s defensive when they averaged 100 PPG the entire DECADE, and in the last 13 yrs, average 97, yet defensive rebounding is sky-rocketed! Oh that's right, ZONE didn't exist like talking about, so double-triple teams barely existed in the 90s..mainly man-to-man. Jordan was rarely EVER double-triple teamed
Mj was a rookie his first Olympics. Matter of fact he did not even play a NBA game yet. Gold medal. Yeah Kobe wasn't on the 2004 Olympic team but he was on the 2004 Lakers Team that lost in the finals. Plus 2008 against Celtics. I am a true Heat fan since 1996 will always be after Lebron leaves and can admit he has his flaws. Its not just what you do but what youdo while doing it seeing that its a team sport.
Handcheck helped offense AND defense, and it was cancelled out in 94....um, excessive fouls came into play in 1990, which weakened the Pistons, and the Bulls started winning. OH, and not to mention that during the 90s, expansion teams littered the league and spread talent out, rule changes and tons of foul calls, plus shortened 3-pt line in 95 and 96 season, NO zone, NO rotation defense, etc...sounds like a TOUGH era
Who's this everyone? The trio of MJ, Scottie, and Horace were known as the Doberman D in Chicago. Scottie was always a superstar in my eyes a HOF as was proven. Jordan and Scottie took turns guarding the team's best for different looks and matchups. They were one of the smartest teams in the league. Jordan was routinely guarded by good to great defenders. Stats go equally with W-L because they provide context.
That's 4% more for a player who took more shots around the rim as opposed to a pure perimeter shooter in Kobe. If Kobe had the chances Jordan got to GO to the post as much, he'd probably be around that, as well, but zone+rotating defenses+no illegal defenses kill that. PLUS, Kobe didn't get the foul calls Jordan got (Jordan almost got 1000 foul shots in one season; Kobe's highest was a low 800). More fouls were called in the 90s than today
Ok, so, with that being said, 1)if they HAD fire power, why did Shaq NOT win the Finals? 2)OF COURSE Shaq was playing before Kobe..he was 19 yrs old (common sense) 3)Robert Horry had rings before Shaq, sooo according to your theory of Shaq being in the Finals while Kobe was a bench player, Shaq needed Robert Horry 4)Around the time they had the 3-peat, THAT is the time I said Kobe had enough fire power to win even if Shaq was not there. Shaq saw a team that was full of talent and ran to it
last I remember, while shaq was playing, Kobe was riding bench under another Miami Heat player (Eddie Jones). And if they could've won one, why did the Bulls win it and the Spurs afterwards? What'd it take for them to win, Jordan retiring again? And Shaq was already in the finals with Orlando Magic, before Kobe even started playing. Believe it or not, the fire power went down when Glenn Rice, Nick Van Axel (however you spell his name) and others left. They won because of Shaq, not Kobe.
total pts and points per game a better explanation is this, in MJ's rookie year he had scored more total points than anyone in the NBA, but he did not have the highest point per game avg in the nba
They are useless stats because those were not the win/loss record for playoff games. If you wanna bring up regular season records then you should note that the year Jordan retired the Bulls came back in 94 and won 55 games without him, and still made to the second round of the playoff each of the next two seasons.
Alvin Robertson was drafted the same year as jordan.... from 1985-1989 Jordan Averaged 32.6 Ppg, 6.2 Reb, 5.9 Assists, 2.8 steals, 1.2 Blocks, .513 Fg%, .848 FT% He played 5 seasons in the 80s and these were the ridiculous numbers he put up
@Luka Calov con't. B4 the new rules were implemented, there were ONLY 3 wing scorers that avg'd at least 23ppg, that were in the Top 10 in scoring. After the new rules went into effect, the # of wing scorers that avg'd 23ppg (and were in the Top 20 in scoring), JUMPED FROM 3 to 11, and they saw HUGE INCREASES in scoring (23%) and FG% (4%). Do U think this is just a coincidence?!! There's a reason why Tony Parker's (a pt guard), has led the league in pts scored in the paint 3x!!
Also, just so you don't get the wrong idea, my stats average are: 18 PPG, 11 APG, 2 steals. I practice 2 hours everyday, working on my handles (30mins), shot(30 mins), passing(30mins), and plays(30mins). My top two inspiration players: Kobe, Magic, CP3; I am not such a bad PG for modeling after them, huh?
DUDE! They scored 20+ppg because of LACK OF DEFENSE!!!! HOW many times will this HAVE to be said? The 90s avged 100.3 ppg while the last 13 yrs avged 3 pts LESS at close pace!! Offense and defense CAN'T show off simultaneously!! I explained that the 2012 Bulls' def rating was better than almost EVERY top 5 90s defense in the playoffs that Jordan faced! Last I checked, 3pt line was shortened, flagrant fouls were enforced during the 90s while some defenses were ILLEGAL! I guess that HURTS offense!
Like how MJ takes action as soon as the trumpet starts
im a lakers fan and you are absoloutly right and he did this with handcheck and centers and not soft players like we do today he is clearly the best
Ehhh...Oscar west played in a tougher time less offensive lee way with the same amount of defensive pressure, actually arguably more defensive pressure
Did you notice Jordan moves as soon as oneal went to the outside? Its like Jordan knows every opponent's movement on the floor.
Kobe thought the rim was protected and once MJ realized it was not, he made his move.
It's like MJ has 2 eyes, they're opened and looking forward, he's waiting for a pick with the man guarded by Shaq, his IQ is above 30, and Shaq is 7 foot tall or something, crazy!!!!
@fitness4life67 lol Kobe got shook, he even admitted it on an interview
1984-1985 was Jordan's rookie season. 1985-1986 was Jordan's injury season which he played 17 games and was held back by management minute-wise early in his comeback from injury. Also, after that season, Jordan's starts climbing towards 50% the next season at 48%. For the next 5 seasons Jordan surpasses 50% and is awfully close in 92-93 at 49.5%. Where as those same 7 sevens for Woolridge, Orlando only averages over 50% two times, compared to Jordan 5. Orlando regressed while MJ improved.
MJ's midrange shot was unrivaled. he was an amazing shooter. that would've been no problem for him.
KOBE HAD 55 ON JORDAN I HOPE HE DIDNT GET HYPE ABOUT ONE MOVE WHICH KOBE THOUGHT HE WAS GOIN TO USE A PICK?
before.. the finals you can't get a basket without a bruise because people before are hungry for championship like detroits they punished the bulls with brute force and intense plays their defense is so suffucating that you can't even barely move.. if, kobe has to experience all that MJ has to endure I don't know what will happen Lol.. good thing players now are way well mannered than before haha
Detroit punished everybody
Eddie Soto yeah they use brute force to muscle they way to the finals and one of detroits finest when it comes to defense is dennis rodman and isaac
cheeze zlayer i wouldn't call it brute force, because the biggest guys weren't on that team, they hit when you when you went inside, and they hit you again so you wouldn't get an and-1
exactly you have to go inside to get pts, otherwise can't get basket, right? the point is basketball in the 90's use brute force just to stop the offense their so hungry their will and determination drove them to use these kind of strategies w/c is alot different from today..
Kobe forced him baseline, but didn't realize his rim protector, Shaq, was at the free throw line extended.
mj is simply better than kobe, kobe is one of the best but he is not as good so please stop making arguments that were never there in the first place kobe fans mj is the best of the best
I am a Kobe fan and I agree completely. He was very very good and one of the reasons is because he took after MJ’s work ethic and play style. He was my favourite player of all time. But he was basically a duplicate of MJ, MJ was the true original.
Wanted to say, I have based a lot of my recent research on comparing Jordan's first 9 years verse Lebron's, who they play against and what peak (5 year sequential span) numbers Jordan and Lebron put up during their first 9 years. Which why I harped so much in our convo on players Jordan played against from 1985 to 1993. I have since reverted back to documenting decades now due to our conversation.
traveled almost every time he did that move
They all do.
Jordan haters must watch Lebron flops
And now he's one of the best.
Kobe said that when Jordan spun on him he knew it was coming, but Jordan was so strong that he couldn't stop it. He said he swatted him away like a fly.
The student learning from the teacher...in your face!!! Now it's Kobe's turn to teach these young bucks. Game respects Game.
this boutta get recommended to everyone
the number 1 and 2 greatest players of all time
"They are trying to sell today's game, not the game from the 1960's, 70's or 80's."
-Wilt Chamberlain on the NBA at 50 celebration in 1996
Pop is a legend ... Phil is mastermind. two of the greatest right there!
Magic. Kareem. Hakeem. Bird. Big O. Shaq. MJ. LeBron. Wilt. Russell. That's the top 10. MJ played against 5 of em at one point or another. He's played against SO many good players...
If you're talking about 1998, Jordan was hurt all season long such as the recurring back problems, wrist injury, and the knee problems he's had forever. I hate bringing up injuries when both players played through them.
Also, Reggie guarded MJ in 1998 and vice versa.
Do you know why folks say what they say about him?
‘You couldn’t win any points if you said something bad about him’ -Andrea Kremer Chicago Bureau
When it comes to Michael Jordan we were in some sought of national denial, everybody made money through Michael Jordan’ -Media Personality
"They are trying to sell today's game, not the game from the 1960's, 70's or 80's."
-Wilt Chamberlain on the NBA in 1996
Talking about a player who has won 5 titles, plus a Regular Season MVP award & 4 All-Star Game MVPs (counting 2009 with Shaquille O'Neal) and two-time Finals MVP.
fast forwar a decade and a half later and kobe's the fucking man.
there are things that only Kobe can do too. Kobe outscored a whole team by the 3rd quarter and he scored 81 points on live tv. and while scoring as high as that he won his games when Jordan scored 60+he lost both games.
They didn't give me those stats, Jordan earned them. I have never heard one person say "Kobe is so great at defense." Not once.
And this is when hand checking was allowed. MJ is the greatest!
MJ, Shaq, Parish, Pip, Kobe, Fisher pretty much in one frame...not too shabby
You reach, I teach
-GOAT
and just cause he's just the closest player i have ever seen to jordan. he has the greatness to back it up. you know what really pisses me off, when a player who has to join a team with 3 allstars and wins 1 ring with them gets mentioned as a top 10 legend LOL. its a slap in the face to other legends who have played this game long enough and have won the hardware to be put ahead of lebron.
@Aries Marquis
"You forgot about Toranto and Van Couver"
1st of all I didn't forget about 'em.
Secondly they're spelled "Tor[o]nto" and "Vancouver" (1 word).
Third, if those 2 contributed to MJ's titles and making his era allegedly "weak", then they also contributed towards the 1st half of the 00s being weak also if that's the case..
He didn't even touch him... He did a spin and broke Kobe's ankles..
He was still in his 20's when the rule was implemented, on top of the fact that he was in his prime until he finished his career in Chicago.
P.S. Kareem helped an expansion team win a championship 2-3 yrs in their existence...Kareem could have carried anyone! He's the absolute most dominate player ever! Period! From high school to retirement from the NBA!
of course the opponent's coach will say that because he just got scored on the 2nd greatest performance in NBA history. Kobe was defended on that game, yes it wasn't the best defensive team but they still had big athletic NBA players on him and he still scored 81.
@Aries Marquis
con't
"Jordan was also more [naturally inclined] to [let] the game come to him [and not] overplay his hand. Whereas Kobe tends to [force] the action, especially when the game isn't going his way. When his shot's off, he'll just continue to [pound away] relentlessly. Michael, on the other hand, would [shift his attention] to [defense], [passing], or [setting screens] to [help the team] [win] the game."
-- Phil Jackson: "Eleven Rings: The Soul of Success"; May 21, 2013
Miami Heat Coach Pat Riley, who coached Abdul-Jabbar for eight seasons in Los Angeles, once said in a toast recounted in Sports Illustrated, "Why judge anymore? When a man has broken records, won championships, endured tremendous criticism and responsibility, why judge? Let's toast him as the greatest player ever." -NBA.com, Encyclopedia: Playoff Edition
So the PERSPECTIVE is that the faster the game, the higher the scoring, and the more rebounding=less defense which means that the 2000s have the second best defensive era in basketball, first being the 50s! Third being the 90s.
The 90s were tougher than the 2000s in terms of more dominant big men and defense was better. 2000s has better guards and an emerging small forwards who score just as much as a SG. The 80s were tougher than 90s and 2000s combined and dont forget jordan played in the 80s and he put up better than numbers than in the 90s. Kobe has this unique mentality of one game going on a monster streak and then the next game he does terrible. Jordan always impressed me in every game. He was very smart
Tim Duncan: 2 MVP's, 3 Final MVP's, 1 Rookie of the year along with one of those Final MVP's.
Kobe: 1 MVP, 2 Final MVP's, 1 Olympic Finalist,
Now count the total and tell me where they both stand and who's ahead of who...... If you say Kobe then there's nothing left to do but shake my head and not even reply to you.......
Once LeBalding Flopper and/or Durant have 5 rings, then you can compare them w/ Kobe.
- when John Wooden was asked who's better, Alcindor or Walton. Wooden replied: 'Who has more championships."
- when Larry Bird was asked who's better, Jordan, Magic, or him = same answer as Wooden.
Let's see...D-Wade's Heat facing Kobe's Lakers, Lebron's Cavs, Carmelo's Nuggets, Big 3 Celtics, Big 3 Spurs, D-Rose's Bulls, Durant's Thunder=those 8 teams! They had HOFers on EVERY team, and they were the 121 best players in the world...Your opponents know you, and yet you STILL dominate?? THAT deserves honor my friend! Welcome to history!
83' Sixers, 86' Celtics, 87' Lakers, 92' Bulls, 96' Bulls are the best teams of the modern era
"If they say the numbers don't lie, then Kareem is the greatest ever to play the game," Thomas said. "And I'm a big proponent of that. … No disrespect to Jordan, but he won in the '90s. And if the '80s are the golden era, then the person who dominated the NBA in the '80s and the '70s was Kareem Abdul-Jabbar." Isiah Thomas (March 23, 2012). "NBA's best all-time? You be the judge". Chicago Tribune
MJ has always won when it came to the Finals and Olympics.
Kobe and Lebron have lost in the Finals. 2004 Bronze Medal
MJ was a perfectionist the others are chasing a dream.
Grant's Magic was getting beat by 38 in that game he got injured. Kerr was a professional and a great role player as well was Grant. nobody's taking that away from them. Also, Derek Fisher made it to the Finals with OKC. The 93-94 Bulls overachieved and added players. The reason why they only made the second round is because they had no Jordan hitting clutch shots and drawing doubles. don't blame the loss on Hue Hollins either. There was a game 7 and the Bulls lost by 10.
Jordan assisted to Paxon, but Kobe assisted to Fisher to clutch against Orlando, and Ron Artest to clutch against the Celtics, plus the lovely ally-oop to Shaq against the Trailblazers (that's a bonus because it's my fav. Lol) Jordan isn't the only one that has ever assisted, Kobe's assists are just overlooked, which is why the career differences on assists is .5, which is nothing! If Jordan was smart, why shoot a ton of times and keep losing as folks accused Kobe of doing?
jordan won his game where he scored 69 pts and grabbed 18 rebounds
the toronto game where he scored 81 Sam mitchell the raptor's coach admitted to allowing Kobe to shoot and try to shut down his team mates by the time they decided to play defense on him, he was already locked onto the rim
most of his points were 3 pointers. or mid range jumpers given he had alot of free throws and were able to drive to the hole anytime he wants. Thats because he's really just a great player he can drive whenever he wants in games.
In these white shirts he was something else !!maybe i am wrong but he seemed even more athletic wearing the white shirts!!! Mj for ever !!! Kobe was the best replica ,but Mike was the prototype !!!
Melo (6'8) Tracy McGrady (6'8) Paul Pierce (6'7) Reggie Miller (6'7) Caron Butler (6'7) Jamal Crawford (6'5) Clyde Drexler (6'7) Andre Iguodala (6'6) Sharpshooter Ray Allen (6'5) Lebron (6'8), Kevin Durant (6'8) Vince Carter (6'6) Scottie Pippen (6'8) JORDAN (6'6) Manu Ginobilli (6'6) Let me slap in the midgets: D-Wade (6'3 2 rings, Finals MVP), Chauncy Billips (6'3 Finals MVP, 1 Ring) Allen Iverson (5'11 MVP, embarrassed Jordan as a rookie) Russell Westbrook (6'3 Finals appearance) NEED I cont?
Michael had his turn, now Kobe is the one who always gets away with 3-4 steps after a dribble. :)
Age doesn't have nothing to do with it. Kobe was just simple inexperience at the time and jordan was still in his prime.
It's hard to call someone a ball hog if they once got 6th in assist in the league, especially if you're the best and when you do pass it they turn the ball over. Opposing teams were taking advantage of the bull's when Scottie Pippen was injured. Same thing happened with Westbrook being injured on Thunder. The teams just pounced....
Having Kobe as the 8th best player ever is not ridiculous. Jordan, Wilt, Russell, Kareem, Magic, Bird, and arguably Shaq can be said have had better careers.
The late Wilt Chamberlain said it best: "If Michael was here right now, I would say to him: When you are so great that the league tries to change the rules in an attempt to stop you then you can claim you are the best ever. Every rule change I have seen during your career has been meant to enhance your game (such as shortened 3 point line, hand checking rules & well defined rules regarding illegal defenses)."
Wilt Chamberlain played in 9 teams league with 10-15 great/good players. Him and Bryant are the most overrated players ever. The 60s was all about Bill Russell.
He brought Jordan up like I do: not to say Jordan IS the greatest, but to rival that opinion, which most believe. And plus my boy, Scottie, brought Jordan in the mix as well. Lol..and bro, Wilt averaged 16 pts against Kareem while Kareem averaged almost 32! He couldn't stop Kareem man! Not many could! Kareem was a punisher at his position!
@Aries Marquis
con't
"Michael was more likely to [break through] his attackers with [power and strength], while Kobe [often tries] to [finesse] his way through pileups. Michael was also [stronger], with [bigger shoulders] and a [sturdier frame]. He also had [larger hands] that allowed him to [control the ball] better and make subtle fakes."
-- Phil Jackson: "Eleven Rings: The Soul of Success"; May 21, 2013
I hate it when people say that. Basketball is a team sport, there is not 1 winner on a team. Kobe won 5 championships as a part of the Lakers and the Lakers won 5 championships, 3 of them when they also had Shaq on their team.
I know the Laker has 16 championships in total.
MJ IS THE GOAT EVEN KOBE SAID THAT, MJ ASLO SAID THAT THERES NO ONE IN COMPARISON TO HIM BUT KOBE
A lot of people forget that Jordan retired in his prime. He could have 2 more rings if he wouldn't retire.
You just took him to school, props to you sir.
"Offense sells seats, defense wins championships."
5 regular season MVP's
6 finals MVP's
11 scoring titles
63 points on the best team in the nba at the time BEFORE 25 years old. not some weak ass knicks or raptors team.
Win the Dunk contest twice. The list goes on..........
Jordan in his prime vs kobe in his prime would be a better rivalry. Both were great players. However....did anyone notice how many steps jordan took after he bounced the ball only once ???? Lmao
He took two.
Maurice Best looked like a travel to get the elevation
The Bulls, as a team, usually dominated the wack competition and the bench stepped leaving Jordan to be more of a facilitator or end things early. The rest of the Bulls, save Scottie usually struggled more against the better teams. In fact, Jordan shot a better percentage than his teammates in these situations.
Jordan upped his offense input because his teammates shot worse in the playoffs and had to carry his teams scoring-wise. Wilt and Dr.J's play decreased, while Magic and Kareem strayed closer towards their regular season play.
6 titles against nobodies 10 scoring titles shooting a million times per game vs 1 of 9 Finals appearances vs stacked teams full of HOFers??? Jerry would have had a field day in the 90s!!!
Kobe is considered GOAT too by some NBA analysts a lot of players have been considered GOAT
yes all those players were in their primes at some point between 1985-1998
BTW, you have lost your mind if you don't think the 92' Bulls or 96' Bulls werent two of the best teams ever. They would have definitely won titles in the 80's, 70's, 60's, 2000's any era. With the 96' Bulls probably the best team ever
no one ever said if he gets one ring he'll be "solidified". people said he needs to get one ring to even be in the conversation. now that he has his one ring, after 9 years, he can be a part of the conversation but he still needs more for any real consideration. being a hof'er doesn't make you a top 10 player. lbj is definitely a future hof'er barring any serious injuries but a top 10 like he and his fans think? not even close yet.
I can't blame Hue anymore and here's why. Teams have to adjust to the crapcakes that are given to them. They either respond to adversity (like years later in 1998 when the Bulls lost the 3-2 edge in game six, only to rebound in game 7) or fall flat. the funny thing about Grant is that if Jordan never retired and if Grant stayed, his legacy would be looking differently.
Just cause someone doesn't agree with you, doesn't mean they're wrong.
1. Michael Jordan
2. Kobe Byrant
3. No one.
you mean kobe in his prime. kobe now just sucks
erion1231 no shit. he doesn't mean MJ now does he?
John Smith Way to show off your short fuse there XD Its obviously different because Kobe is still a player in this league and MJ isnt :P
As far as free-throws go, nobody's denying Jordan got a fair share of the calls, at least not me. Most stars do. However, Jordan went to the free-throw line because, especially in his early years, he took it to the basket with so much wreckless abandon. Many players at the time, like Dominque Wilkins, commented on how that style would cost Jordan years in the league. MJ also had a varying amount of moves and fakes that led to opponents fouling him a lot.To me it's a combo of refs and initiating.
@Aries Marquis
So I guess kobe was also injured when he shot:
* 41.1 FG% 6'2 Eric Snow in the '01 Finals
* 44.2 FG% in the '02 Finals
* 38.3 FG% in the '04 Finals
* 39.1 FG% in the '08 Finals (vs brick for feet Pierce, and J. Posey (who 40 yr old MJ scored 35 on with a bruised thigh LOL)
* 43.3 FG% in the '09 Finals (vs JJ Reddick & Courtney Lee LOL)
* 40.0 FG% in the '10 Finals
Dude, it goes both ways. If there was no handchecking, MJ wouldn't have been the defensive force he was back then. He wouldn't have been the DPOY for sure. So pick your poison I guess. Kobe and MJ's games are so similar that I think that Kobe would have done fairly well in the 90s. He IS one of the greatest players of all time, so I'd imagine he'd adjust his game to fit with the 90s era.
Kobe vs MJ is the best trash talking matchup in the history of sports..hands down
I would definitely say MJs a better dunker, but not by a very large margin... I actually think Kobes really underrated as a dunker, watch some of his stuffs they're pretty sick
My bad.
However, I literally just heard about that very same retirement today and how exhausted MJ was after that 3 peat. Physically and mentally exhausted. First, he won a ring, won another ring, went to the Olympics and won a gold, won another ring and then finally retired. So I'm not going to say he WOULDN'T have won a ring, but I'm also not going to say he would have. There's no way to know and playing the "what if" game is pointless.
Point is, we never know what would have happened.
Kobe, YOU JUST GOT SCHOOLED!!
I don't think my argument was that West was better than Jordan, but that West was was a beast at his position, giving Jordan reasons to study some of his game. Never said Jordan wasn't stronger or faster than West, I was just pointing out the fact that West was scoring in his era the same way Jordan was scoring in HIS era. Now you say high scoring and rebounding is inflation? Welcome to the LOWEST rebounding in history (last 13 yrs)and SECOND lowest scoring in history (last 13 years)
The KING of ballhogging is Michael Jeffrey Jordan, averaging 22.9 shots per game...the MOST in the history of the NBA...fact..
What those 90s jockers don't realize is that stats show that defenses are at an ALL-TIME HIGH in the NBA, and that includes the 90s! Thus, the decrease in PPG per season in the NBA...HOW was the 90s defensive when they averaged 100 PPG the entire DECADE, and in the last 13 yrs, average 97, yet defensive rebounding is sky-rocketed! Oh that's right, ZONE didn't exist like talking about, so double-triple teams barely existed in the 90s..mainly man-to-man. Jordan was rarely EVER double-triple teamed
Mj was a rookie his first Olympics. Matter of fact he did not even play a NBA game yet. Gold medal.
Yeah Kobe wasn't on the 2004 Olympic team but he was on the 2004 Lakers Team that lost in the finals. Plus 2008 against Celtics. I am a true Heat fan since 1996 will always be after Lebron leaves and can admit he has his flaws. Its not just what you do but what youdo while doing it seeing that its a team sport.
Handcheck helped offense AND defense, and it was cancelled out in 94....um, excessive fouls came into play in 1990, which weakened the Pistons, and the Bulls started winning. OH, and not to mention that during the 90s, expansion teams littered the league and spread talent out, rule changes and tons of foul calls, plus shortened 3-pt line in 95 and 96 season, NO zone, NO rotation defense, etc...sounds like a TOUGH era
jordan,pippen and rose are the best players of all time
Who's this everyone? The trio of MJ, Scottie, and Horace were known as the Doberman D in Chicago. Scottie was always a superstar in my eyes a HOF as was proven. Jordan and Scottie took turns guarding the team's best for different looks and matchups. They were one of the smartest teams in the league. Jordan was routinely guarded by good to great defenders. Stats go equally with W-L because they provide context.
That's 4% more for a player who took more shots around the rim as opposed to a pure perimeter shooter in Kobe. If Kobe had the chances Jordan got to GO to the post as much, he'd probably be around that, as well, but zone+rotating defenses+no illegal defenses kill that. PLUS, Kobe didn't get the foul calls Jordan got (Jordan almost got 1000 foul shots in one season; Kobe's highest was a low 800). More fouls were called in the 90s than today
Ok, so, with that being said, 1)if they HAD fire power, why did Shaq NOT win the Finals? 2)OF COURSE Shaq was playing before Kobe..he was 19 yrs old (common sense) 3)Robert Horry had rings before Shaq, sooo according to your theory of Shaq being in the Finals while Kobe was a bench player, Shaq needed Robert Horry 4)Around the time they had the 3-peat, THAT is the time I said Kobe had enough fire power to win even if Shaq was not there. Shaq saw a team that was full of talent and ran to it
last I remember, while shaq was playing, Kobe was riding bench under another Miami Heat player (Eddie Jones). And if they could've won one, why did the Bulls win it and the Spurs afterwards? What'd it take for them to win, Jordan retiring again? And Shaq was already in the finals with Orlando Magic, before Kobe even started playing. Believe it or not, the fire power went down when Glenn Rice, Nick Van Axel (however you spell his name) and others left. They won because of Shaq, not Kobe.
total pts and points per game
a better explanation is this, in MJ's rookie year he had scored more total points than anyone in the NBA, but he did not have the highest point per game avg in the nba
That's some heavy education!!
They are useless stats because those were not the win/loss record for playoff games. If you wanna bring up regular season records then you should note that the year Jordan retired the Bulls came back in 94 and won 55 games without him, and still made to the second round of the playoff each of the next two seasons.
Alvin Robertson was drafted the same year as jordan.... from 1985-1989 Jordan Averaged
32.6 Ppg, 6.2 Reb, 5.9 Assists, 2.8 steals, 1.2 Blocks, .513 Fg%, .848 FT%
He played 5 seasons in the 80s and these were the ridiculous numbers he put up
@Luka Calov
con't.
B4 the new rules were implemented, there were ONLY 3 wing scorers that avg'd at least 23ppg, that were in the Top 10 in scoring. After the new rules went into effect, the # of wing scorers that avg'd 23ppg (and were in the Top 20 in scoring), JUMPED FROM 3 to 11, and they saw HUGE INCREASES in scoring (23%) and FG% (4%).
Do U think this is just a coincidence?!!
There's a reason why Tony Parker's (a pt guard), has led the league in pts scored in the paint 3x!!
Also, just so you don't get the wrong idea, my stats average are: 18 PPG, 11 APG, 2 steals. I practice 2 hours everyday, working on my handles (30mins), shot(30 mins), passing(30mins), and plays(30mins). My top two inspiration players: Kobe, Magic, CP3; I am not such a bad PG for modeling after them, huh?
DUDE! They scored 20+ppg because of LACK OF DEFENSE!!!! HOW many times will this HAVE to be said? The 90s avged 100.3 ppg while the last 13 yrs avged 3 pts LESS at close pace!! Offense and defense CAN'T show off simultaneously!! I explained that the 2012 Bulls' def rating was better than almost EVERY top 5 90s defense in the playoffs that Jordan faced! Last I checked, 3pt line was shortened, flagrant fouls were enforced during the 90s while some defenses were ILLEGAL! I guess that HURTS offense!
Minnesota qualified for playoff berth in the 1996-1997 NBA Season.
kobe then learned why he is legend