Regarding the rules of time travel in Chrono Trigger, Marle is not erased from time because of a grandfather paradox issue. She is erased because of the possibility that such a paradox *might* happen. This is a very strange plothole that is at odds with the rest of the game. In all other instances, time travelers are granted immunity from timeline changes that would otherwise effect themselves, and the game is pretty consistent about it. That's why Robo can return to the future after Lavos is defeated. That's why items from chests can be retrieved multiple times. Essentially, the time traveler comes from its own timeline. When time travelers act in the Chrono universe, a new timeline is created and the original is replaced but the time traveler has already displaced himself from his original timeline so that traveler isn't effected... Except in the case of Marle. It's weird. It's a plothole that should not have made it to the final draft of the game. But IMO, that's all it is. Just a minor plot hole that's easy to look passed. Perhaps because Marle time travelled using the pendant instead of Lucca's gate key she operated under different rules. Or perhaps the "entity" had something to do with it. That's how I choose to rationalize it but I know I'm just making excuses for what's ultimately a plothole. I think you're right that Chrono Trigger doesn't emphasize player choice or non-linearity but I also don't often hear players talk those elements up either. I would agree with you that Chrono Trigger's battle system and time travel concept promise a lot more complexity and depth than they actually deliver on. I'd also agree that Chrono Trigger's plot and characters are both pretty underwritten but I'd argue that that actually works to the game's betterment. Chrono Trigger is trying for a lighthearted adventure feel with comedy elements, not a dramatic epic like a Final Fantasy. Too much narrative complexity would have bogged down the tone that Chrono Trigger was going for. Sorry for the long comment. An hour long video left me with a lot to say.
The real world reason is essentially that the writer for that scenario (I think it was Yuji Hori?) didn't work on the rest of the game, so the developed mechanics and themes throughout the rest of the story weren't known to him. The fan theory to explain it is that while Lucca assumes it is a paradox that removes her, that this isn't actually the case at all. The Entity may well be the culprit. The evidence? First, the Entity created the gates to begin with, so it served as an intentional catalyst to get the protagonists on the correct path. Second, this has been noted, but Marle disappearing BEFORE Leene dies. Third, her unbroken sense of continuity. If it was an aspect of her being wiped from the timeline, that version of her would be gone. Lost to the Darkness Beyond Time. The restored version would be a new version, who technically shouldn't even know anything happened. Just like if you save Lucca's mom, she doesn't have memories of being crippled when you return. She's a new version who lived a new life path that didn't include that it of history. But with Marle? It is clearly the same Marle who reappears - and she even describes awareness of wherever she had been sent to during the interim.
I think the time travel in CT is good because it's simple, even if you find plotholes when analyzed carefully, it deviates from the standard time travel routine of being over complex (and still having plotholes) like the one in Final Fantasy 1. It's good because it's not trying to be too smart, inserting paradoxes and implications, etc it does it once in the beginning and never again, and for me it works. I really enjoyed your video, btw, even though I still think CT is one of the best rpgs ever made, I agreed with most of your points. It's like you said, there's something human about admiring a flawed piece of art.
If I'd made this video now I would have framed it differently (less Negatively) but I wouldn't have changed any of my actual analysis if that makes sense. It makes this video one of my proudest while also being the one I most wish I could change. Not enough to re-review the game though. I've done my time. I'm done with CT... except of course for mentions in my eventual Cross review.
Finally got the time to watch this video, school's been crazy this semester. Amazing analysis. While the game will forever be one of my all time favourites, you definitely gave me an alternate lense to look at it. I also think that all of your points were valid and extensively well argumented and evidenced, so no complaints. The next time I play Chrono Trigger will definitely be an interesting experience. Keep up the great work
Thanks for watching, I'm glad you in particular liked it since it's building towards that conest I did... a year ago... to finally cover Chrono Cross ^^'.
It's been years, but it was nice to see a small comparison to Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen. Underrated gem! Very well done video. Sorry I found you 5 years late 😂
Mid 90's kid me - "You're wrong, Chrono Trigger is the greatest game ever" Mid 30's me: "You're wrong, Chrono Trigger is the greatest game ever. But I can understand your perspective"
I love this analysis and the game. I've seen it several times this week. You always make my laugh at 11:51, because I can't tell if you found that image randomly, or if it was intentional. I really hope you found it at random 🤣
Thank you very much for the compliment! And I've gotta be honest, I made this so many years ago that I no longer remember if I planned that joke or not, so the mystery shall remain a mystery.
Yeah.. i don't stand by that little gem of a comment any more lol. For a while i switched to nearest neighbor with scanlines and i wish i could still play that way, but i learned the hard way that youtube compression absolutely ruins most filters and just makes your footage look bugged out and terrible. So now it's just upscaled with no filters. Really miss my LCD grids and Scanlines though
I can agree with 80 percent of your criticisms and 100 percent of your compliments, but I gotta call you on the filters thing. Hey, enjoy what you want, you won't hear me complain, but a CRT didn't act like a filter. If anything, how CRTs displayed 240p, withing a (sort of) line doubled 480i display, was more of a filterless/pure way of viewing progressive scan content.
NO ONE ASKED YOU SNATCHER MAN!!! MY RAGE WILL FOREVER BAN YOU FROM THIS REALM! lol, well you definitely have better knowledge of that sort of thing than I do, based off of your videos. Really I just wanted something in there so people would shut the hell up about the filter thing. (This, does not count, it's actual intelligent feedback). Thank you very much for watching. Will likely pin this comment so everyone else who tries to piggy back on the complaints will have something to look at. I still argue it better fits the intent.. given that every remaster that exists filters as well, apparently the devs agree on some level. Out of curiosity, you ever notice that people only tend to complain about filters over 2D games than on 3D ones? That's a phenomena I've experienced on multiple channels. Really can't thank you enough once again for stopping by and commenting. As I said in the description I'm all for opposing arguments if they are well thought out and spoken, and not just shouting or insults.. and this is definitely an example of what I DO like to see, so thank you.
Stiles' Reviews absolutely man! I love a good natured back and forth. It's true people tend to prefer filters on 3d content, vs 2d. I think that makes sense though. 3d content is made to be scalable, so filters allow people to mask imperfections, at large resolutions. With 2d art, the divide between pixel corners is so vast [at least with 240p content] that things like anti aliasing dont perform the same job it does in a 3d environment. Essentially, in 3d filters can improve the picture, while keeping the original look of the content intact. Filters in a 2d space fundamentally change the shape and dimensions of the original work. But like I said, I can't knock you for enjoying them. It's super subjective. Some people think my love of upscaling goes too far, and that 480i and bellow, aren't intended for high res displays. We all have our preferences.
That's quite interesting and informative, thanks for that. Your tech side is showing.. damn it. That's my biggest blind spot when it comes to my content. I think I'm decent with game dissection in terms of mechanics and storytelling, but the aspects your speaking of I need to learn far more about. TEACH ME YOUR WAYS!!
Your talk about Chrono Trigger not being the best game is the same with me on FF6. Granted I don't dislike either of them, in fact, I much prefer Chrono Trigger due to it's pacing. I just don't really like some of the stuff in FF6 such as the dull color pallet, the battle music, having over 12 main characters instead of the usual 4 to 8, the inconsistent pacing, and it's often raved as the best FF game and even in RPGs but I don't find that to be the case since I keep discovering old RPGs made around FF6 and I felt they where much better and resonated with me. But it is cool to also hear about your talk about Chrono Trigger.
Thanks for watching and commenting! Spoiler for future videos but i dont think FFVI is the best in the series either lol. FFVI has a better story than CT IMO, but gameplay wise i think it is prrtty unremarkable.
This is still my all-time-favorite video game review on RUclips. On par with MrBtongue's "Mass Effect 3 Ending" and RedLetterMedia's "Phantom Menace" reviews. Miss your content, man. Good luck with FF V ;-)
I beat Lavos with just Crono and Marle in my party. Was worth it to see Marle cause a disturbance in the space time continuum to make her have Frog ancestry, despite the fact we only interfered with the future.
Did you just upload an hour long video at midnight? I guess your target audience is people with horrible sleep schedules. So in other words, thanks for the laser-targeted video. I'll have to set aside some time to watch this tonight. This morning.
Lol it's been rendering/uploading for about Five Hours now so.. not purposefully? To be fair.. at the time of this comment it's only 9 30 PM here! lol Also GREAT TIming with this upload in general thanks to e3 and so on. Ya know... I'm great at this whole timing thing! Really my fans/viewers have been waiting so damn long that I uploaded it as SOON as it was finished, I assume they'll watch it when/if they want too.. plus there's Table of Contents in the description so people can watch it in parts. In all seriousness, Thanks for taking the time to stop by.
EXCEPTIONAL work! While I love Chrono Trigger, I hate ATB combat on a deep personal level so I did have beef with it, same with the forced encounters. It IS true that no game is flawless and having someone actually admit the flaws of Chrono Trigger is refreshing and wonderful. That said, I DO want you to notice something: When you mentioned RPGs on SNES with better graphics, presentation, AND story? Notice how EVERY SINGLE GAME YOU MENTIONED WAS NEVER RELEASED IN AMERICA! So that's a thing. Similarly, yes, I WOULD say I found Chrono Trigger's story and characters better than Dark Souls, Mass Effect, ect. which I guess makes me reflect on what I consider to be a "good story". I don't like the idea that an videogame doesn't need a good story because I like story and characters...yet at the same time I cannot think of a game with "good story and characters" that I actually enjoyed. Shoot I'd even go so far as to say I prefer games with BAD story and characters because it's fun to laugh at them! I view games through an odd lens so I find the eternally shrugging Benjamin and his quest to defeat evil elemental fiends who heinously LOCKED WOODEN DOORS to be delightful. I love the Lufia series because of its oddball writing and the fact that I legitimately love the Sinistrals as characters. Shoot I interpret Phantasy Star Online as the story of the dumbest scientists in the universe being convinced to colonize a different planet in order to save Motavia (considering two planets have already been destroyed by trying to control the weather...and Motavia was NEARLY destroyed by trying to control the weather...what's the first thing they do when they get to Ragol? TRY TO CONTROL THE WEATHER! Oh but it's okay, they accidentally created The Uber Shrimp and were killed by its minions. Also, Griffons are a type of worm according to these geniuses). I'm sorry, I'm rambling. Know what I think you hit on the right word though: FUN. I have a friend who is a big Chrono Trigger fan and plays through the game on a yearly basis and he admits the story isn't good, but that it's FUN. He likes the brightly colored "swashbuckling adventure" tone of it and THAT hits on something: TONE. There aren't a lot of RPGs with Chrono Trigger's tone. It hits the right blend of silly and serious to be immensely endearing. But what about Dragon Quest? Too silly and the characters usually come off as less developed and compelling than Chrono Trigger. Final Fantasy? Too serious. Those interviews might reveal why Chrono Trigger is so endearing: It was a tug-of-war between the Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy guys! While that is where many of the flaws come from, that also makes the game a unique blend we may never see again. Also, time travel is fun. Even if it IS just set dressing, it's REALLY GOOD set dressing. The variety of environments mixes well with the lighthearted swashbuckling tone. The game does have two main standout surprises too. The death of Crono was surprising because...HE WAS a silent player insert protagonist! Yeah he was boring but...that was YOU. The game killed YOU off. That's...kinda interesting. It could have been done better, absolutely. But no one really saw that coming. They expected some kind of main character power to protect him. But no, he dies and there's a segment where everyone is sad...because YOU died (sorta). That's interesting and would be fun to toy with in a game where the main character is more...you know...actually YOU. The other was that whole Ice Age period. It's a VERY sudden turn in the plot and an interesting one as no one had really even hinted at an Atlantis type civilization in this world. Not that heavily anyway. So it comes out of nowhere and is full of hella mystery. When push comes to shove though, there's no such thing as "The Best RPG" due to differences in taste and focus. That really applies to any genre. Personally, my favorite RPG of all time is Final Fantasy Legend 2 and my dream RPG would be a better FFL2 (which I KINDA got with the DS remake but I also want more) and I wish more games were like THAT. But that isn't to say quality can't be assesed. Chrono Trigger would be ONE OF the best, but WHY? Near as I can tell after this video, it seems it has the broadest appeal of any JRPG ever. So, good video. Got me thinking, which I think is what you wanted since every other discussion of Chrono Trigger is a circle jerk.
I think the lack of random encounters is a big difference. It doesn't catapult Chrono Trigger into a league of its own, but what's great about it nontheless is the predictability. In Chrono Trigger I can freely explore the world map to my heart's content, knowing that there'll never be a random encounter interrupting my travels. Also, more importantly, whenever I'm in a dungeon and I spontaneously decide to alter my planned course due to discovering something else on the other side of the screen or changing my mind, I typically don't have to worry about my additional steps causing encounters and a less efficient trek through said dungeon. I'd say that those two examples are actually the biggest advantages of how encounters work in Chrono Trigger. Coupled with the odd group of enemies I want to ignore here and there it makes for a pretty good improvement that mainly helps the pace along. Very cool channel, by the way.
Thanks so much for watching and commenting. Chrono Trigger's pacing is absolutely fantastic and i definitely see the argument that the random enounter structure helps with that.
There is another element of strategy which usually justifies the use of dual techs. Maximising damage dealt at once will minimise damage received from counterattacks. Those are common in Chron Trigger. A weird thing about the Masamune is that it is called Granleon in the Japanese version, a name more in line with its European appearance. The new game + is likely the praised aspect of this game I'm most indifferent to. The endings aren't really worth it, you'd have to keep fighting the same boss battles over and over again, and combat becomes trivial because you get to keep level, techniques and equipment. So there is almost nothing there.
Thanks for watching and commenting, I believe I mentioned the counterattack part when discussing the Queen Zeal boss fight, though it's been so long since I worked on this video that I may be incorrect. The information about the Masamune is very interesting, I had no idea and I thank you for filling me in!
So now I'm wondering what your top fifty games would be. No challenge or snark here, I'm genuinely curious. Myself, I thoroughly enjoy this game, so if you can point me to fifty games that are better, I eagerly await that list!
That would be a hell of a task to make a top 50 haha. I dont know how much good such a list would do since 'better'is ultimately a matter of opinion anyway. I genuinely appreciate your interest in my opinion though!
I'd still put it in my top 5 and expect it to stay there as many other RPGs drop in and out within 5-10 years of their release. For that reason, it might be my favorite RPG of all time. There are a few reasons for this. 1. I still feel like SNES level 2D holds up really well. Something I can't say about NES, Playstation, or even Playstation 2 level graphics. 2. At 20 hours it doesn't outstay its welcome and is easily replayable. I still love the Dragon Quest series, but I haven't finished a DQ game since 3 because at a certain point I just stop playing. 3. The graphics, animation, and music are top-notch and full of personality. 4. The battle system is fun even if it's not complicated. The double and triple techs are fantastic. 5. Nostalgia, of course, but I think for good reason. I will never forget the atmosphere in Magus's castle. That's one of my favorite areas in a videogame ever. If I had to pick a best RPG ever I'd be tempted to go with Divinity: Original Sin 2. I don't know if I'll be able to say that in 5 years, though. Or if we could pick just part of a game, the first act of the War of the Lions version of FFT.
While I like Chrono Trigger, my personal favorite RPG list top5 is is as follows 1) Baldur's Gate 2 2) Persona 4 3) Final Fantasy IX 4) Undertale 5) Earthbound I used to rate Earthbound higher but much as I love the game, the first few hours DRAAAAAAG until you get paula the game is a slow grind fest where you try to get strong enough to get through the next boss with grinding on par with the first dragon quest IMO. Also the exploding enemies in the game knock it down a ton. Every other game I Rate higher doens't make you stall in the introductory areas: PERsona 4 has the great set up and the battles aren't too hard, FF 9 has the cinematic series of fights that hit the pacing mark just right until the evil forest when the game really starts, undertale's unique "no one has to die" gameplay means the fights at the start are never tedious and are engaging and Baldur's Gate 2 sets up perfect stakes for your main character to pursue a goal, and the dungeon level opener is a great way to get you used to the gameplay. I see your points but I do still like Chrono trigger, albeit with a bit more of a sour taste in my mouth.
I might've included Earthbound, but I haven't played it myself yet ^^' I have the feeling it won't be my type of game based upon my preferences, but I still want to try it someday, if for no other reason than to eventually play Mother 3. I also love FF9, it's one of my favorites, and Persona 4 I just recently started playing (about 3 months ago I think?) But I had to stop playing because of this very project actually. I don't want people to not like Chrono Trigger, I also like the game, I just want to broaden the way people look at games. Thank you so much for watching and taking the time to comment!
Son of sun actually does have a bit of a puzzle to solve outside of randomly guessing. The fire bit that you need to hit is the only one that doesn't counter attack. So you can suss out which one to focus by hitting them with carefully placed aoe attacks and tracking the counter attacks.
Excellent video! I disagree with pretty much everything barring the things that even the fanbase admits are flaws (godfather paradox plot whole with Marle, Marle being bad late game etc.) I replayed it recently and it is still one of the best games I've ever played. One thing I will say is that the game is definitely way more plot focused than character focused. You bring up the lack of focus on them a lot but that's kind of the intention of the work.
Thanks so much for watching and commenting. I dont really consider the game plot focused either, at least not deeply so. 'Save the World' is a plot i suppose... 'Save the World with Broken Time Travel' is still a plot but one that undermines itself constantly. There is no reason to harp on my thoughts, you already saw the video lol. Thanks again!
@@StilesReviews Nah you're good I still love discussion! What I mean by plot is the literary definition of plot. The sequencing of events. What makes the game brilliant is how the general history of the world is slowly revealed and how these seemingly un-related wacky events all end up all mattering to the larger plot. Zeal's reveal is one of my favorite story sections in fiction. It's where all of these elements the game elegantly introduces but doesn't overplay come together and it touches on on this beautiful idea of reaching beyond what is thought imaginable, in our dreams and reality. The sages, dreamstone, magic being a thing, Lavos impact on the planet, all of these elements given context here. Insane.
Thanks for watching and commenting! That was the true goal of the video, i should have framed some of my arguments less negatively, but im glad it atill remained interesting at least
YAY!!! New video!! Sadly don't have the time tonight to watch it, but tomorrow im going to sit down and enjoy with a good coffee! Been checking up on your channel to make sure I havent' missed anything since RUclips is being crap with notifications if you if you "CLICK THE BELL ICON". Good to see you again there brother!
Thanks so much, it's nice to see you back again too lol. Life's been hell this year... but I'm finally getting things back under control to an extent. It won't be another... 8 months before my next video I can garuantee that. Seriously, it's been so long that I wasn't sure anyone would check the video out, considering my AWFUL timing with e3 going on I'm incredibly happy with how many views I've already gotten. Hope you enjoy the video when you do get around to watching it!
Excellent video. It reminded me of the time when I heard nothing but praise for the game and then I actually played it. I thought it was quite good, but honestly undeserving of the "10/10 masterpiece" sort of title it always gets, especially in the gameplay (it's just too easy and offers not enough customization for my tastes. Not terrible gameplay, but not great either). Also, love the channel. I subbed. I'm surprised you don't have more subs, considering the quality of your videos. I can't wait for the Chrono Cross video.
Thanks a lot for giving my channel a chance and for the sub! The way you described your first experience was mine as well. Everyone praised the game as brilliant and I am/was a huge Square fanboy.. so i bought the game for DS in High School and was... not that impressed. Of course at the time I didn't have the ability to truly critique the game like I did in this video. On another note, I tend to get that comment a lot, "Surprised I don't have more subs based on the quality of my content". It truly means a lot to me. A big part of the problem is just life getting in the way of my videos... so I don't upload anywhere near as much as I'd like too/need too. Still working on fixing that. Got a lot of scripts in the works as we speak. Normally once I finally finalize a script the rest comes fairly quickly, but the writing is (I feel) my best asset, so I always agonize over it. Anyway, you didn't need my life story, thanks again so much for watching!
Yeah, I wasn't as absolutely blown away as others were saying I would be. At first I thought I was simply being a contrarian, but the game never really got any better (in fact I would argue the flaws show themselves more later in the game, such as having little/no development for some characters). Also, it's great that you get that comment a lot. Not only was I surprised by the quality, but I love the direction as well. It's refreshing seeing deeper analysis of games, and it reminds me of Dark Pixel (I actually found your channel through a comment on a video of theirs). Overall, keep up what you're doing to the best of your ability.
Once again, sorry for the late reply, RUclips keeps marking your comments as spam, and I'm not sure why, so I've been getting them super late. Thanks you for the kind words, it truly means a lot to me. Really it is comments like these that keep all content creators going. I'm quite small, but I have quite a few friends/aquaintences whom are much larger than I am, and they all say the same thing. Please continue to spread that appreciation around, the community can use a lot more of it. Seriously, I've been in a slump as is (doesn't help that I'm working on Octopath Traveler and it's taking me more than 100 hours to finish the damn game) but this reinvigorated me. I'm a fan of Dark Pixel gaming myself, reached out to them a while back a bit worried they would feel I'm stepping on their toes by doing a similar FF marathon, and they were quite kind in response. By chance, do you happen to remember what video the comment was on? I'm quite curious now.
@@StilesReviewsthis feels weird jumping into a convo 4 years later. But I've had a similar experience with my brother. He's 10 yrs younger than me, and seems to generally respect this game but hasn't bothered to finish it. It's not the masterpiece to him that it is to me. Yes, I'm in that camp - it's my favorite game to this day. Is some of that nostalgia? Sure. But I'm going to posit one thing that you brought up in your Mystic Quest video - context. It may be possible, given what you said about your first brush with the game being the DS version, that it lacked context to a degree. I mean that as a game and from a design stance. By that point, the jrpg market was packed to the teeth, with a lot of games presenting a lot of ideas. Chrono Trigger at this point was coming out as a retro release relegated to a handheld and jumping into a big pond. When I played it, when I was in high school? That was the SNES version in its prime. In those later days of the SNES, Square dropped this, FF VI, and Mario RPG. These were the pinnacle of the genre for the platform. Especially in the west where we weren't getting the DQ titles to compete during this period. And even a number of other ambitious jrpgs wouldn't reach us until years later via fan translations. It brought a charming story, a mix of ideas from some of the industry giants, and ideas at that time that were fairly new. And, at least to me, it struck a perfect balance between the charm and whimsy of Mario Rpg and the apocalyptic weight of FFVI. But by 2008, well, players had a ton of games to choose from even just on the DS. And if we start talking about Playstation consoles the pool expands. So, tldr, I can understand someone jumping into the game in 2008 or later finding it to be good but not groundbreaking. Many of us who view it as a groundbreaking title, we played it when it broke said ground.
@@NeoConker626 You aren't wrong, though I was more trying to debate the argument that Chrono Trigger is STILL held up as the pinnacle of the genre, not it's place when it released. I've said it many times now, but if I were to make this video now with all the experience I've gained, it would definitely be framed differently. I'm proud of the actual analysis, but dislike the overall tone and attitude of the piece. I thank you very much for watching and commenting! I enjoyed reading you and your brother's opinions about the game.
So I was ready to offer up a possible explanation to some of the time paradoxes. I thought maybe the designers were going with the idea that the characters in the game were unaffected by changes in time due to time travel itself effectively removing them from the timeline, a concept explored in other medium like Chuck Palahniuk's Rant. But upon a second watch of the video (yeah I actually watch most of these more then once) you reminded me of the scene near the beginning where Marle fades from existence when the party finds her in the past. This completely shat all over my possible theory and have no choice but to concede that the use of time travel in this game is a botched job at best. Once again you deliver a very well thought out analysis and had me looking at something old in a very new way. I'm always open to ideas that challenge the established order of things and I can't commend you enough for your honest assessment and tackling a subject that these days seems beyond criticism. Keep up the good work sir and I eagerly await the coming of "the Cross."
Yeah, I read up on a lot of fan theories on how 'the time travel actually DOES make sense if you just ignore the time travel bits' when I was researching for this video lol. I tend to dislike fan theories that are used to cover up writing mistakes. Some stories are ripe for interpretation, but most of the time it's just fans making excuses for something they love. I admire the dedication, but wish people were willing to admit that things they enjoy have issues lol. The only book by Chuck Palahniuk I've read is the obvious one: Fight Club. I may need to check out Rant as well. Thank you very much for watching (apparently more than once). That makes me incredibly happy, I know I have content creators that I repeatedly rewatch, so it means a lot to hear someone feels my videos are worth more than one viewing, especially because they are long and detailed. Thank you again!
Time travel in Chrono Triger might be inconsistent, but so are most examples in media entertainment. Very few franchises go for a hard sci-fi approach with fixed unchanging rules, and instead play it fuzzy based one the needs of any particular plot point. Notably, Doctor Who is likewise a series where time travel is a core foundational aspect , yet much like Chrono Trigger mostly only ever uses the element as a framing device for changing up the setting with new fantastical locations in each adventure while only rarely delving into its own mechanical implications. It quite literally handwaves away inconsistencies by referring them as "timey wimey". Some events are fixed and unchanging, others are mutable. Some alterations have immediate consequences, others are delayed or seemingly irrelevant. Ostensibly there are rules, but they are something so complicated that only Time Lords like the Doctor are capable of full perceiving them.
It is often just hand-waved away in lots of media, but I don't like those hand waves whenever they show up. I think I touched on why I don't like time travel in general in the video.. but basically, lack of consistent rules automatically means there are no real stakes to the plot. Those rules are (generally) important to my enjoyment, because without them, nothing matters and anything can be undone with no real consequences, and a lack of consequences makes a story boring to me. Why should I be invested when the writer's themselves are admitting that nothing matters? That's just my opinion though, I'm not faulting others for still enjoying it.
@@StilesReviews: Except there are stakes in Chrono Triger because the limitations of the time travel system only permit the group to travel to specific locations at fixed eras, meaning they don't just have infinite do-overs. Even with the Epoch, that only circumvents the locational limitations, as the Epoch can still only travel between the same eras with the flow of time remaining constant between them. Spend an hour in the past and when you return to the future an hour will have likewise passed and vice versa. Why the Epoch is limited to those points in the timeline is never entirely explained, but it could be as simple as temporal coordinates being more complicated than just selecting a date, limiting them to points they've already been to with Luca's key. There are only two exceptions to this constant flow of time. One is reviving Chrono, an action that requires a special single use McGuffin. The other is fighting Lavos on the exact day it awakens to destroy the world, something initially only accessible by a portal that is entirely different from the others, presumably because of how pivotal that moment is and how the time portals are linked to Lavos.
@@EmeralBookwise I made this video many years ago and have ejected most of it from my memory, but I did an extensive amount of research at the time on how the time travel works, and the only consistent theory I recall is that 'time travel doesn't effect the heroes... because they are the heroes'. I guess by what you say there are indeed stakes... but they have essentially infinite time to solve it. To have zero opportunity to stop Lavos, they'd have to survive another 65 million years for the time portals relative location to have passed Lavos' armageddon event. Same with Crono's death. If they were actually consistent with the linear time travel the game outright says it is using, they could've gone back in time and stopped an earlier version of Crono from ever having been in that Lavos encounter to begin with. It's all b.s. xD
@@StilesReviews: Except again, the fixed time periods they have available to work with preclude them ever being able to interact with themselves. Well, excluding Robo who makes the long trip from 600ad to 1000ad, after which he can hop back through a portal and hypothecary chat with his younger self. He still wouldn't be able to Warn Crono though because by 1000ad he has long since broken down, requiring Luca to make repairs. I suppose they could try leaving a message to be passed down through the generations, but there are obviously multiple points at which such a message could be lost, and also requires their past selves to believe said message upon receiving it.
I agree entirely about game balance and power curve. Early/mid game is much more satisfying. The idea of lining up shots and timing attacks is much more defined in the early stages of the game. But by end game your best option is almost always AOE spam, which is kind of lame.
best rpg's, in my opinion, xenogears, ff4, ffx. There are others, but those are my 3 favorite games. Chrono cross is a great game, coming out just after (or before? I think after) ff6 and it was great as it was the residnet evil 4 of it's day, much less stiff, much more action, faster paced, and a ton of fun to play. I love chrono trigger, but it's the type of game that can't be expanded on like ff4/ff6, it is what it is, a short, stand alone story. Take away from it/add to it, and it messes it up. Also, the sales figures are funny, i didn't buy ff4, i was too young, but my mom bought a used copy, but ff6 was my very first layaway ever, and chrono trigger i bought outright. Just funny to hear that not many other people bought at, is in mobile alabama, everyone i knew at the time had a copy of the game and played it like crazy :P
I agree with most of your assessment of the characters having no ark. But videogames are an audio visual medium like movies and I think a lot of critics do a disservice by improperly critiquing their writing as if they were books. Chrono trigger still is one of the best games of all time based on its story as told within the audiovisual medium. Much like the selecting of the photograph at the end of FF15, you still recount the journey at the end of chrono trigger with a ton of positive sentiment. You can compare to a game like earthbound which is just as flat in terms of story but when you watch the credit roll at the end, you still have very fond memories of the journey. Chrono trigger tells a great story of a group of heroes journeying across time through amazing locations with the most beautiful music. You don't necessarily need great arcs to drive the story as you do in a book....although obviously it does help...which again makes ff7 the best game ever made. Come at me!
As someone who was very unimpressed with the game, and isn't analytical with video games, this video was fantastic! I was looking especially forward to the games' story and characters after hearing about how great the game was. I'm glad this video seems to invalidate that I'm "not getting it" or something like that.
Damn I don't have time for this. I'll like chip at this in pieces between different night shifts. But no it isn't non linear or hands time travel/paradoxs well but neither any of the back to the future movies. That being said its pacing its characters its world and music have cemented it as my second fav rpg. In fact it came packaged with my fav Final Fantasy IV. Both tell a story using simple pieces motives and have some depth uncommon to the SNES era and when stacked with other games I tend to judge them against when they are made just as much as what is in them. Oh and before people think that only makes 16 bit jrpgs good for me third fav rpg is Tales of Vesperia. I look forward to enjoying this video and likely editing this comment a few times.
Thanks so much for commenting anyway, I hope it entertains you in small chunks! In case you missed it I DID put a table of contents in the description for easier viewing. Chrono Trigger is most definitely good, I spend quite a bit of time in the video praising it actually, I just wanted to bring some other points to the table because so many people seem to out right ignore the issues the game does have. On a side note.. I enjoy most of the Tales games I've played.. but I stopped right before Vesperia.. I need to get back to that at some point.
Stiles' Reviews I have not played most Tales of games due to not having a ps3 but there is something about Vesperia that makes me just adore it. Even if the Japanese got a better version then us in Canada and lower Canada. Also good on you for time stampimg the vid thanks
Also I disagree with some of what you said but that's okay because its your opinion thank you for sharing it is good to hear some one else's unbiased opinion that is not on a nostalgia trip, but for me this is one of the greatest games of all time
@@gumpyflyale2542 Thanks for taking the time to watch! We are absolutely allowed to have different opinions. I really like the game despite everything I said, I like the game more AFTER making this video than I did before. I would have framed my arguments a bit differently if I made this video now, but I still am proud of some of the points I made. I came off more negative than I should have, but I had fun just dissecting the game in such a detailed way in the first place. Seriously, thank you for commenting, even if you disagree, it means a lot!
I beat Chrono Trigger for the first time yesterday and am happy I found this video as it summarises much of what I thought upon completion, a plot that falls apart in the last third of the game, gimmicks for boss battles, unbalanced combat, stupidly easy difficulty and an unappealing art style. Yet the graphics, soundtrack and presentation for the time are excellent, but that doesn't make a game great. Suikoden II is the best rpg of all time. Just happy that I am not the only one who felt this way about the game.
A lot of this feels misguided to me. Like when people smugly point out that David Bowie wasn't a very technically accomplished vocalist. Brain review of a heart game.
Fair enough, i feel great works of art should accomplish both aspects, and every single thing i 'debunked' is an arguement about the game ive actually read somewhere. Still a great game, just not, imo, the best rpg ever as so many people say it is.
@@StilesReviews I guess, without embarking on a whole essay in response, I would say that convincing human drama and psychological realism were never goals with this game. Yes, characters are broad, consisting of memorable visual designs coupled with one or two exaggerated personality traits. That's because they're patterned on ones from child's manga/anime and similar pulp adventure fiction. Chrono Trigger uses time travel the same way an old Saturday morning cartoon would: As a way to justify lots of wild adventure in cool settings. Sweating the rules and off-screen implications is a little like watching a monster mutation sequence in a Resident Evil game and then harping on the lack of proper attention paid to conservation of mass in something clearly and unapologetically aping schlocky monster flicks. Similarly, questioning the mathematical efficiency (!) of squashing everything on the battlefield with a giant rainbow frog versus just whacking guys with your sword really seems like going to extremes to avoid embracing the intended mindset. People love this game because it's a brisk, colorful, exuberant adventure across time with a overarching sense of humor, easy to love heroes, and unforgettable music. It's welcoming, funny, sweet, and cool. Lovable, you know? It emphasizes this very warm, human approachability that attracts the sort of people who find many other RPGs too dry, cold, or weird/pretentious for their own good. To put forth a very rough analogy, I think it's a lot of players' favorite RPG of all time for the same sort of reasons Cowboy Bebop might be someone's favorite anime series of all time. Hopefully that makes some sort of sense.
Makes plenty of sense, and i appreciate your insight. For what little it is worth this video is a couple years old now and i absolutely would have framed things differently were i making it today. I stand by my points, but not the way i presented them.
Yeah, it's a long one even for me. My technically longest video, though my FFXV one was conceived as one video, and would have been longer had I released it as one. Gotta be honest, I'm looking forward to making a video that's much shorter next time lol.
I feel like you have the type of mind that would be more suited to reviewing scientific papers rather than whimsical video games, but it was an interesting take
Anyhow, nice review. I don't agree with every point, but you had some real good ones, especially with the gameplay. I expected to be more peeved after watching this, lol. The main theme in this game isn't about "the freedom of choice," however. The main theme is more so that "the freedom of choice may be an illusion" (which, from Lavos cultivating society, it markedly is). They weren't trying to make a non-linear, branching experience to begin with.
Thanks for watching and commenting. If I made this video today, I would've framed it in a less negative light, but I still stand by almost all of my points. I don't fully remember if I insinuated that the game was meant to be non-linear, or that people CLAIM it is non-linear and I was debunking that. If it's the latter I stand by it, if it's the former I don't haha. I also don't think I agree with the 'freedom of choice is an illusion' idea as the theme... because you actively change history, there are multiple different endings based upon those actions. It is very much a story about the impact even a small few can have on the course of history. Either way, I enjoy these types of conversations, and am not trying to come off as 'I'm right, you are wrong' at all, Just reiterating and clearing some things up. Seriously, thanks for watching and for the compliments.
@@StilesReviews That's exactly how I am; so no problem and thanks for responding so fast. I feel like your tone was fair enough; you said your pluses and minuses pretty spread. I believe you stated the latter; and so, those people are wrong. Most JRPGs aren't non-linear. Yeah; with every work, there are multiple, subjective thematic interpretations. I was hesitant to even state what I felt the main one to be. But sufficed to say, there are elements of both of what we said presented in the story; so there's always going to be that overall doubt to contradict what those people are saying about--at least--"total" freedom. Same for real life. Let me know if you'd wanna Live on this sometime. I enjoyed your style...and I'm quite honestly kinda tired of playing FF6. Lol.
@@StilesReviews If you do wanna do that Live, though, what I'd say is that those changes being made are rather "completions" than actual diversions in the flow of time. The same applies to everything from Lavos' arrival (why weren't the Reptites in charge at the start of the game?) to Lavos' ending where you're shown that the Lavos bit survives even after defeating him. Chrono Trigger is a closed time loop.
i like chrono tirgger but it's not my favorite rpg. even during my last playthrough i still think the game is good but it's not up there with some of my favorites . it's on this pedestal and i'm glad someone gave some counter points. also square did patch the game. there has been 3 patches and most of the issues were fixed such as the ui. i played it after the first patch and i think the port was fine. also i'm surprised you barly touched on the ted woolsey translation. there are people going around that are saying the ds one does not have a soul or heart even tho it's much better then the snes one.
Thanks so much for watching and commenting! You basically hit the nail on the head about my point, I do think it's good. I went through about 10 different drafts of this script and it originally started off much more negatively... but I give the game a LOT of praise as well. In fact it's the parts where I praise the game that I'm most proud of in this video (The Section about how the maps connect in particular is something I'm still fond of). I'm aware that Square has been continuing to patch Chrono Trigger on Steam, in fact a new patch came out three hours before I originally posted this video... that shows you just a small glimpse of how long this video has ACTUALLY been in production. It's still not complete however, and it shows a continued trend of Square's incompetence. They had to have known the port was unacceptable from day one, they just had to of. I thought about touching on the script/translation more, especially because I'm prepping for my FFVI video and.. oof.. I hate Woolsey's interpretation of the script far more in that game than any other he's worked on.. likely because it's the game with the most serious story and it doesn't feel to me like he took it seriously. Really though the goal was to analyze the overall game, not so much the individual ports. I flip flopped on that bit for a long time, though, and I think you are right. I'm sure in about a week I will discover a bunch of things in this video I would have liked to change, and that likely will be one of them. Thank you so much for watching and commenting! It's greatly appreciated! Thanks for the feedback regarding the translation bit as well!
Depends on how we define that. There are a lot of event encounters (The conveyor belts, the elevator, one of the door switches that automatically spawns bats on you, etc) That I'm pretty sure aren't avoidable. I'm pretty sure I got the 1 in 3 encounters statistic from the book I referenced towards the beginning of this video, but it's been so long now that I admittedly could just be talking out of my ass.
@Stiles' Reviews If you mean literal event encounters, then I got you. It sounded like you were saying overall--but I guess that means I was responding to overall as well. Lol.
@@StilesReviews It's all good. It's not even really important when you can't see all those step-triggers. I'm bigger on scenes than gameplay in general.
Being honest I was always kind of turned off from Chrono Trigger because how great of a universal praise it received, it was pretty much a reverse Final Fantasy 2 (which I felt kind of attracted to, even with being the only FF game besides 15 I've never even tried out yet) situation, where they take the end goal of the review somewhat granted, "it's obviously good" (or bad in FF2's case), while not being able to get their feelings and ideas together, so they kinda throw stuff out like interesting time travel, fun characters or a unique tech system or approach to the "non-random" battles, kinda how you mentioned it in your Final Fantasy 2 video, where many reviewers did the same but with the negatives. And now, that I spent a better part of my week playing the game through (the android version, it was quite bearable and not at all annoying on phone, except some parts, especially when you fail targeting the right party member/enemy because you mistap and the game counts the whole screen as the A button) I must say I'm proud that I was able to get into this game while disregarding this overhype this game gets by fans, because this decision of mine awarded me with a great and fun experience of a wacky adventure with fun characters troughout the eons. I liked Chrono Trigger. In fact, it may have became one of my favourite jrpgs for the time being. But honestly I totally agree with you on every single part in the video, the presentation and the OST was nigh flawless and then we're starting to get into troubles.... Yea Crono sucks, I always hated silent protags, and concidering this fake choice gimmick this game has it really didn't make sense to have him this way, so when I learned of a party config not including Crono which can triple tech and fit to my playstyle I just used that 3 characters (Lucca, Robo and Magus) with only bothering with reviving Crono for the good ending, even though he is like a god tier character who deals insane damage with a single attack command. And yeah the main reason for that triple tech was also just to go through battles faster, if some tough looking enemies came I just Omega Lasered them, but around endgame I just switched that to spamming Flare and Dark Matter with a quick Uzzi Punch/Heal Beam from Robo when needed, so I wouldn't get caught off guard. Techs seemed a pretty cool gimmick in early game but ever since I started acquiring only single or all-targeting ones I kinda went the boring route and effectively nuked everything. It wasn't necessarily fun, but seeing 6 big enemies disappearing after one blow was always satisfying. Also yeah, screw all of those endgame content, I spent my whole life looking through guides for all of them since I just had little clue where to go, and while I enjoyed some of them, like the sunken desert story, and especially the part where Lucca goes back and faces her trauma, realizing the fact how little all of these actually change was really just a disappointment, though I still liked how some points of the game evolved (like with Ozzie and his descendant) it is still just a gimmick of the game I'd only mention as a factor that I subjectively liked, I wouldn't dare to say this makes the game brilliant. Also why are people saying how the game isn't linear? Literally the point is that it is linear, not disturbing you from your journey and wherever you go will guide to your next step, I honestly liked it in the game but it is not non-linear by any means. As for the characters, they weren't well developed but they were fun to see and roll with, kind of in a Final Fantasy 5 fashion (which is my favourite jrpg), and I didn't even mind time travel being off since I've never seen any medium perfectly implementing it without flaws. Neither of these flaws did break the game for me, but turns out I was right at realizing this unreal overhype and didn't let them become my expectations. This level of overhype ruins games like Undertale or Zelda BOTW for a lot of it's newcomers, and I've learned from a previous mistake how I should give _most_ games a clear chance when trying to experience it for myself, instead of the "everyone says it's fun so it must be" mentality. I played it, I liked it, it was worth it, and I'll also more than likely will replay it in the future, but it's obviously not the best jrpg ever. There isn't even really a best jrpg ever (except maybe FF6, that may be the least wrong of the wrong answers), the one that stands out to you should and will depend solely as your own subjective judgement.
Im seriously glad you played the game, formed your own opinion and enjoyed it, and while i didnt put forth my point as well as i couldve based on some reactions ive gotten to this video over the years, im glad it was clear enough for someone to get it despite the flaws in my presentation. I never meant to say the game was bad, in fact i quite enjoy it, just like you said overyhpe can make something not as fun for newcomers, or in my opinion it can hurt true critique. Getting compliments about my FFII video is a new one haha.. i look back on that one and cringe... but i dont plan on deleting it or anything. Either way, sorry for the long responsel thanks so much for the long and thorough comment. You will be happy to know im working on my FFV script as we speak.
@@StilesReviews well that for sure is great news. I've been having a blast kind of binging through your older videos lately and I'm sure your FFV video will be more than worth the wait, even if it's not a praising review, I'm just geinuinely curious about what you have to say about it
Pat’s book argues that choices DON’T matter until the end. Not sure you are arguing against the correct idea. Also most people I know like CT because it’s aggressively linear and lean. Maybe I’m around the wrong people? Interesting video!
The point of my video wasnt to refute his book, despite me disagreeing with some of his opinions it is well thought out and well written. I've seen people on several forums and in several videos say that the choices matter when discussing the game. I cant remember everything i said here, it has been years since i made it, but if i were to make the video today i definitely wouldve framed things differently. Thank you for watching and commenting!
I think the only thing that would make me consider why it was, not only one of my favorite, but many peoples favorite or why it can be "considered" one of the best is the fact that this game more than likely has something for everyone. Which to be honest is never seen in video games and not even most JRPG's. As most of them stick to a very certain standards. I know Chrono Trigger is flawed. Heavily. And I think why its praised very highly. Because its possible that everyone who plays it can give said person a different experience or have a different thing grab them more than others. NOt a defense of the game but I think its a interesting way to look at more of a way is how people perceive this game than others. So obviously I hate all of your opinions and think you are wrong lalalaalalalalalalaalalalal I cant hear youuuuuuuuuuu Seriously though man I know how much of a pain in the ass this video has been. But Goddamn it was worth the wait. This was one of the most analytical videos I've seen on a RPG and damn. While I still stand but my views on the game these are definitely things that can be criticized about. Awesome job man. And Amazing work
Ugh.. THIS guy... All right.. prepare yourself for a butt-kicking through text: I definitely agree with that sentiment. In an earlier draft of the script I'd said that Chrono Trigger is what would happen if Dreamworks was an RPG development company. It has a large appeal in that way, and that's why I end the video by recommending it regardless. I keep trying to stress that people SHOULD like whatever they like. I even opened by saying that this would be an Unbalanced opinion on the game (Which.. I honestly feel ended up being more balanced than I thought it was while writing it ^^'). Making this video has given me a much greater appreciation for the game, not less of one, and that alone says a lot. I even though about changing the line towards the beginning where I said it wouldn't crack my top 50 RPGs.. I don't know if I still agree with that statement or not because the game is so damn charming... but as usual my endeavor is to try and bring more to the table, to get people to think, and to discuss the medium as an art form. Thanks so much for making the awesome intro to this and for your continued support. You're always helpful, and I'm glad you think the video turned out decent. I think visually it's one of my better ones, which comes mostly from the new editing software. Thanks for watching and commenting! I should have another video out by.. I don't know.. does 2020 seem too soon for a five hour breakdown of what makes Ocarina of Time crap? That seems like the most divisive topic I can come up with lol.
@@StilesReviews Um... A FIVE hour annihilation of Ocarina of Time? I'll personally create an intro where I play my Blue Sweet Potato ocarina and then SMASH IT against a clock for Your video, if You decide to go through with making it. That game definitely needs to be shaken off of its high Epona! P.S. When presenting OoT misconceptions, make sure You use the annoying fairy voice effect when listing them to draw parallels with how annoying fans and critics are when they claim OoT is "flawless"! ;-)
@@reviewsfromthenorth7929 I got the notification from this comment and thought, "What is he even talking about?" I'd completely forgotten that I made this joke all that time ago lol. Truth be told I've never beaten a Zelda game.. which is blasphemous given I'm a game critic. Ocarina genuinely bored me... but I got less than half way through it ^^' lol
Thanks so much for watching and commenting! lol. It wasn't my intent to make players not want to play it, just to actually give Chrono Trigger the respect of an ACTUAL analysis, not just a repeat of, "Man, this game is perfect!!"
Thanks for watching and commenting, ive noticed youve commented a few times on my videos today, and it is very much appreciated! As for your question, ive wanted to play all the Suijoden games, but have my plate overflowing with other projects right now unfortunately. I appreciate you showing an interest in my content though!
Allways got the feelings that the team at Blizzard must have loved this game since many bossmechanics in World of Warcraft are direct copys of this games bosses. Like say Kologarn in Ulduar are a carboncopy of Giga Gaia at Mountain of Woe
When I was a kid, chrono trigger was the best game ever made for me. But I no longer believe that and I prefer chrono cross even to it. As a kid...in 1995, I enjoyed chrono trigger as a prestige game and also I could relate to the story because of y2k around the corner. However, I didn't enjoy it as an rpg as I couldn't be bothered to learn stat growth tables and damage calculation formulas. Nowadays, I feel the battle in chrono trigger is not well designed and too shallow to keep my attention.
@@StilesReviews Glad to hear it. Good job analyzing this great game without the rose tinted nostalgia glasses, even if you destroyed my cherished childhood memories in the process.
They repeat puzzles over and over. It's not the worst thing in the world when it comes to dungeon puzzles; just insanely repetitive. They even have guesswork "puzzles" in some dungeons; you come across 5 ledges you can jump down and you can't see where you will land; pick the wrong one and you have to retrace your steps!
In the description: "Let's keep it civil." Two minutes into the video: "...the lack of intelligent criticism surrounding the game." Oh. Okay. So your critique is "actually thoughtful," whereas anybody who critiqued the game previously was lacking intelligence and thought. Let's keep it civil indeed.
Followed by my recommendation of an ENTIRE BOOK that I don't agree with the majority of but still think it highly intelligent criticism. Woo... you caught me.
Other than disagreements I have with some of your arguments, there is one part where you are factually inaccurate. The time travel is horrid, but if you open the magic boxes in the past, you are unable to open them in the future making the magic boxes the one time they actually did time travel correctly. Good watch though and now subbed. Can't wait to watch more of your stuff
But it's not inaccurate. They made it work ONE way, but did not take into account BOTH directions. If you pick it up in the past first it deletes it from the future.. BUT if you pick it up in the future, then pick up the EXISTING one in the past, it would create a paradox. It is impossible for you to have picked up the one in the future, because if you pick it up in the past it will not have EXISTED in the future. It is a contradiction. It is impossible. To make this visual: 1 = 1 with the first number being past and the second being present. If you Pick up 1 in the past.. it makes it look like this 0 = X with 'X' meaning non-existent. The item is now gone in both timelines. That's fine. If you pick up The item in the future it looks like this 1 = 0 Which is also fine. But.. if you take this template of 1 = 0 then go back in time to pick UP that past '1' it becomes 0 = X... because the 'x' means it never existed in the first place. Default: 1 = 1 Pick up in Past: 1=1 becomes 0 = X Pick Up Only in Future makes 1 =1 become 1 = 0 Pick up In Future and THEN past doesn't work because 1 = 0 becomes 0 = X (Nonexistent). The only way it could possibly make sense is if we ignore the grandfather paradox completely. The way it is handled now treats the item as if it is duplicated, which makes no sense because it is still just one item. Picking up the first SHOULD make the future version disappear from your inventory, because in linear time travel, your meddling in the past makes the future's version not exist. It doesn't matter when the time traveler interacts with each box, because time is linear, even if their actions IN time aren't linear. Removing the item from a box doesn't make it immune to the laws of time and space. In other words, the only way for this to make sense is if picking it up in the future also blocked you from picking it up in the past. Maybe when you 'talk' to the chest in the past, it's putting a magical seal on it, making it impossible to open by anyone UNTIL the future.. which means that no one can CATCH you in this time paradox. That would have made sense with the plot and given a choice element. Would have been super interesting if the future item wasn't always better.. if you had to choose between two powerful pieces of equipment. Edit: Actually let's use your own logic to explain this in a (hopefully) less confusing way, because I look up at my post and think 'I don't think that is very readable". Picking it up in the past chest erases it from the future. Wouldn't that happen no matter what? Even if you pick it up AFTER it's been removed from the magic chest in the future? Picking up the past one should ALWAYS erase the one from the future, is my point. Whether the future version is in a chest or in someone's pocket, it would cease to exist if the earlier one is tampered with. Sorry this was so rambly. I'm glad you enjoyed the video regardless, I'd love to hear some of the disagreements and I appreciate you taking the time to watch!
I get your point now, that you did explain well in the video, but I think I misheard it or was doing something else at the same time. Honestly, time travel sucks and would never work
It is a confusing concept and I believed that I might have not explained it well in the video, so I appreciate you pointing it out either way, hopefully if someone else has the same concern they'll be able to see my more thorough explanation here!
about the time paradox, i have to disagree with your explanation. if they follow the true time travel theory, there would be no way they can "prevent the apocalypse" due to "the event has already happened in the future". if they change the past and change the future, there is no reason for them to start the quest to change the future to begin with because the future already changed. thus for a time travel story like this to work, they have to abandon the "time travel theory" and go with the version of time travel that "changing the past can affect the future without effect the reason for them to change the past in the first place". its more complicated because it often make no sense, like how time travel work in Doctor Who. think of it as they creating a rift in time which allow them to walk out side the timeline that they are not truly belong to
as for your argument to Chrono Trigger not being the best RPG of all time. my argument is that NO RPG is the BEST of ALL Time. because new RPG will keep being made and eventually one will surpass the other. my argument is that if one day I have a child of my own and want to introduce them to the world of RPG, I would likely chose to introduce them to an RPG such as Chrono Trigger
Thank you very much for watching! My point with the time travel part wasn't that it doesn't make logical/scientific sense.. but that they contradict themselves in their own writing. If they'd just thrown up there hands and said, "Time travel works because I say so!' then it would have (In my opinion) been BETTER than the fact that they attempted to explain it, but it explained it in a way that causes it to make no sense. You are right though, without this contradiction there would be no game... I just wish it had been better written or they'd come up with a better excuse.. or that they'd had no excuse at all and just said 'it's magic'. I also agree that CT is a great starting place for newcomers to the JRPG genre, it is a very good game.
You arent the first to point this out, and ive since changed my stance on that particular type of filtering, i dont agree with my past self on that one lol.
@@StilesReviews ok, i didnt expect a prompt reply from a years old video... anyway, you made a great review, basically pointing out why i didn't like chrono trigger. actually, you destroyed the game, but thats fine. when you get to final fantasy 6, i hope you wont completely destroy it...
Im a small channel so i try to be responsive. In this particular case i just so happened to get internet setup again right when the notification came through. Thanks so much foe the feedback positive and negative, and thanks for watching and commenting! Really means a lot.
While I realize you are playing devils advocate and are focused on the whole masterpiece status I do think you were overly harsh in your critique of the game. I will say though especially your thoughts at the end with Yuji Horii were spot on. I will also say I don't think Chrono Trigger is the best game of all time but I would say its one of the best snes games of all time. Ocarina of Time and FFVII came out shortly after and were also games praised as being best games of all time. I think it had more to do with many people's age at the time and it being one of the first games of its type people encountered. Its easy to see how Ocarina of Time was considered the best game when it first came out. No one had experienced a game quite like it. But it was easily overshadowed by other games that came after. But you know what they say - You never forget your first. I also prefer non silent protagonists myself but since Crono is a silent protagonist its obvious that the characters personality has to be imagined. This also carries over into the other characters and scenes. You have to interpret and infer the answers that the game doesn't provide which was the style of storytelling in the dragon quest games and even the early final fantasy games. This has the potential to make the game and story more your own. There are many things in this game that are simple but not necessarily lacking depth (it is possible for there to be depth in simplicity). For instance, I interpreted the Entity that they mention at the end to be God basically who is the silent hand that guides them through the story. I know that there are many people who hate random encounters with a passion so its easy to see why those people would love this game (not me though). I know that the short length of the game is also something that appeals to many people. I also know people who really appreciate the way Chrono Trigger handles the multiple endings due to the ability to see them all in a second playthrough instead of playing the game 11 times. Also some people hate grinding and would rather level their character through a second playthough of the game in order to max everything out instead of repetitive grinding. Also your argument against double or triple techs falls apart due to the fact that it is a choice to use them. You don't have to use those techs at all if you don't want to. You can use them sparingly. You could also vary your use of them depending on what you want to do and on what is strategically viable. What is cool about them is it really makes your team feel more like a team. I do think there are better games out there myself but I do love what the game has to offer. Also games back then tended to be targeted to kids (Just sayin). I could go into detail on my interpretation of the story but I don't think thats necessary. There is a timelessness though to the music, art and how the game ends.
ATB is still turn based. No two attacks can occur at the same time and it has no active inputs. Time is always flowing so if you are too alow you effectively have your turn passed over.
"...immediately falls flat under ANY form of intelligent scrutiny..." Alright man, we get it. Everybody who has a different perspective than you is either less intelligent than you are or failing to utilize their intelligence. Wow. And you accuse people of arrogance for simply giving a game critical praise? That's NOT what arrogance is... arrogance is claiming that your take on the game is the only intelligent critique and that everybody else was lacking intelligence. Those were LITERALLY your exact words. I was really interested in your perspective until I started actually watching the video, and now I can't take you seriously. I made it like five minutes before your arrogance completely turned me off. I still believe that you probably have a valid perspective, but, dude, you need to repackage it, because I can't even continue watching this, despite my interest. Holy moly.
Sorry you couldn't get into it, genuinely thank you for trying out my content in the first place... but I feel I must point out that Those were 'not' my exact words. I just rewatched the section of the video to make sure because I'm definitely open to constructive criticism and wanted to check for myself. What I said was: "...but beyond that there are statements I see repeated that are factually incorrect; Statements like, "Chrono Trigger is a non-linear game that lets your choices effect the game world" and "Chrono Trigger Handles time travel well!" fall immediately flat under any form of intelligent scrutiny." This is an 'attack' on the statements, not an 'attack' on the people who make those claims. I do see how it could be interpreted otherwise (Like how you somehow interpreted parts of my video as me calling others arrogant for having another opinion, when I didn't do) but you are the first I've seen make this complaint. Especially when just a couple of sentences before I admitted that there are debatable aspects of the game's design (Which clearly indicates that I DON'T think my opinion is the only one that is valid). Though I do admit that the statements are a bit inflammatory: they were meant to be so that I could hopefully capture people's attention, especially since I do long form critique as opposed to short reviews and I want people to stick around. I had to 'bait the hook' somehow... It's a pretty standard writing tactic, but In your case it happened to backfire. You are admitting to being upset specifically by the language I used, which I can understand, I've been turned off by such things in the past, but I'd hope that anyone going into any critique or review would understand that they are, by default, an opinion piece, and that not every claim made needs to be labeled with a note saying, "This is just my opinion and you are free to have your own!" Because... of course you are. I'd be lying if I said I didn't feel that the thoughts I expressed in this video are 'correct' otherwise... I wouldn't have put them into a video in the first place. I don't want to risk generalizing too broadly, but I don't think most critics or reviewers purposefully make videos claiming something other than what they think is true, so I don't really see how I'm different in that regard. That said, you are right, there are parts of this video I wish I'd worded differently... but the entire point of the less than three and a half minutes of the video you've chosen to critique was to try and get people's attention, if you had watched the video you'd be able to decide for yourself if the things I pointed out as 'Facts' are enough to back up my 'Intelligent scrutiny' statement... which.. I feel they are since I point out absolutely factual flaws with the game in the few rare cases it is applicable. If you ever think to give my content a try in the future, I thank you for it, if not, I thank you for the attempt anyway. I don't want to risk coming off as arrogant by saying I think you are wrong... but I definitely think there was a miscommunication given that I don't think you really know how I speak or present. It was not an intentional insult and I am genuinely sorry if it came off as such. I could have chosen a better word than 'intelligent', but this is all a reflection on my poor attempts as a writer and wordsmith and not a purposeful insult. Edit: And OHHH!!! I did use the word Arrogant.. while I was personifying the game ITSELF. As in.. the game is so often held up as perfect that the game itself almost feels arrogant to me, and I want to bring the game down a peg. Perhaps a failed play on words, but I was not calling players or critics arrogant in that statement, but I did, in fact, use the word 'arrogance'.
Regarding the rules of time travel in Chrono Trigger, Marle is not erased from time because of a grandfather paradox issue. She is erased because of the possibility that such a paradox *might* happen. This is a very strange plothole that is at odds with the rest of the game. In all other instances, time travelers are granted immunity from timeline changes that would otherwise effect themselves, and the game is pretty consistent about it. That's why Robo can return to the future after Lavos is defeated. That's why items from chests can be retrieved multiple times. Essentially, the time traveler comes from its own timeline. When time travelers act in the Chrono universe, a new timeline is created and the original is replaced but the time traveler has already displaced himself from his original timeline so that traveler isn't effected... Except in the case of Marle.
It's weird. It's a plothole that should not have made it to the final draft of the game. But IMO, that's all it is. Just a minor plot hole that's easy to look passed. Perhaps because Marle time travelled using the pendant instead of Lucca's gate key she operated under different rules. Or perhaps the "entity" had something to do with it. That's how I choose to rationalize it but I know I'm just making excuses for what's ultimately a plothole.
I think you're right that Chrono Trigger doesn't emphasize player choice or non-linearity but I also don't often hear players talk those elements up either.
I would agree with you that Chrono Trigger's battle system and time travel concept promise a lot more complexity and depth than they actually deliver on. I'd also agree that Chrono Trigger's plot and characters are both pretty underwritten but I'd argue that that actually works to the game's betterment. Chrono Trigger is trying for a lighthearted adventure feel with comedy elements, not a dramatic epic like a Final Fantasy. Too much narrative complexity would have bogged down the tone that Chrono Trigger was going for.
Sorry for the long comment. An hour long video left me with a lot to say.
The real world reason is essentially that the writer for that scenario (I think it was Yuji Hori?) didn't work on the rest of the game, so the developed mechanics and themes throughout the rest of the story weren't known to him.
The fan theory to explain it is that while Lucca assumes it is a paradox that removes her, that this isn't actually the case at all. The Entity may well be the culprit. The evidence?
First, the Entity created the gates to begin with, so it served as an intentional catalyst to get the protagonists on the correct path.
Second, this has been noted, but Marle disappearing BEFORE Leene dies.
Third, her unbroken sense of continuity. If it was an aspect of her being wiped from the timeline, that version of her would be gone. Lost to the Darkness Beyond Time. The restored version would be a new version, who technically shouldn't even know anything happened. Just like if you save Lucca's mom, she doesn't have memories of being crippled when you return. She's a new version who lived a new life path that didn't include that it of history. But with Marle? It is clearly the same Marle who reappears - and she even describes awareness of wherever she had been sent to during the interim.
I think the time travel in CT is good because it's simple, even if you find plotholes when analyzed carefully, it deviates from the standard time travel routine of being over complex (and still having plotholes) like the one in Final Fantasy 1.
It's good because it's not trying to be too smart, inserting paradoxes and implications, etc it does it once in the beginning and never again, and for me it works.
I really enjoyed your video, btw, even though I still think CT is one of the best rpgs ever made, I agreed with most of your points. It's like you said, there's something human about admiring a flawed piece of art.
If I'd made this video now I would have framed it differently (less Negatively) but I wouldn't have changed any of my actual analysis if that makes sense. It makes this video one of my proudest while also being the one I most wish I could change. Not enough to re-review the game though. I've done my time. I'm done with CT... except of course for mentions in my eventual Cross review.
Finally got the time to watch this video, school's been crazy this semester.
Amazing analysis. While the game will forever be one of my all time favourites, you definitely gave me an alternate lense to look at it. I also think that all of your points were valid and extensively well argumented and evidenced, so no complaints. The next time I play Chrono Trigger will definitely be an interesting experience.
Keep up the great work
Thanks for watching, I'm glad you in particular liked it since it's building towards that conest I did... a year ago... to finally cover Chrono Cross ^^'.
It's been years, but it was nice to see a small comparison to Ogre Battle: March of the Black Queen. Underrated gem!
Very well done video. Sorry I found you 5 years late 😂
It isnt late, im still making videos haha. Thank you for the compliment!
Mid 90's kid me - "You're wrong, Chrono Trigger is the greatest game ever"
Mid 30's me:
"You're wrong, Chrono Trigger is the greatest game ever. But I can understand your perspective"
I love this analysis and the game. I've seen it several times this week. You always make my laugh at 11:51, because I can't tell if you found that image randomly, or if it was intentional. I really hope you found it at random 🤣
Thank you very much for the compliment! And I've gotta be honest, I made this so many years ago that I no longer remember if I planned that joke or not, so the mystery shall remain a mystery.
To each their own with that filtering, I play on nearest neighbor with scanlines.
Yeah.. i don't stand by that little gem of a comment any more lol. For a while i switched to nearest neighbor with scanlines and i wish i could still play that way, but i learned the hard way that youtube compression absolutely ruins most filters and just makes your footage look bugged out and terrible. So now it's just upscaled with no filters. Really miss my LCD grids and Scanlines though
I can agree with 80 percent of your criticisms and 100 percent of your compliments, but I gotta call you on the filters thing. Hey, enjoy what you want, you won't hear me complain, but a CRT didn't act like a filter. If anything, how CRTs displayed 240p, withing a (sort of) line doubled 480i display, was more of a filterless/pure way of viewing progressive scan content.
NO ONE ASKED YOU SNATCHER MAN!!! MY RAGE WILL FOREVER BAN YOU FROM THIS REALM!
lol, well you definitely have better knowledge of that sort of thing than I do, based off of your videos. Really I just wanted something in there so people would shut the hell up about the filter thing. (This, does not count, it's actual intelligent feedback). Thank you very much for watching. Will likely pin this comment so everyone else who tries to piggy back on the complaints will have something to look at. I still argue it better fits the intent.. given that every remaster that exists filters as well, apparently the devs agree on some level. Out of curiosity, you ever notice that people only tend to complain about filters over 2D games than on 3D ones? That's a phenomena I've experienced on multiple channels.
Really can't thank you enough once again for stopping by and commenting. As I said in the description I'm all for opposing arguments if they are well thought out and spoken, and not just shouting or insults.. and this is definitely an example of what I DO like to see, so thank you.
Stiles' Reviews absolutely man! I love a good natured back and forth. It's true people tend to prefer filters on 3d content, vs 2d. I think that makes sense though. 3d content is made to be scalable, so filters allow people to mask imperfections, at large resolutions. With 2d art, the divide between pixel corners is so vast [at least with 240p content] that things like anti aliasing dont perform the same job it does in a 3d environment. Essentially, in 3d filters can improve the picture, while keeping the original look of the content intact. Filters in a 2d space fundamentally change the shape and dimensions of the original work. But like I said, I can't knock you for enjoying them. It's super subjective. Some people think my love of upscaling goes too far, and that 480i and bellow, aren't intended for high res displays. We all have our preferences.
That's quite interesting and informative, thanks for that. Your tech side is showing.. damn it. That's my biggest blind spot when it comes to my content. I think I'm decent with game dissection in terms of mechanics and storytelling, but the aspects your speaking of I need to learn far more about. TEACH ME YOUR WAYS!!
You are criminally undersubbed.
Once again, excellent work, Stiles. It was worth the wait.
Thank you very much, I'm glad you enjoyed it!
Your talk about Chrono Trigger not being the best game is the same with me on FF6.
Granted I don't dislike either of them, in fact, I much prefer Chrono Trigger due to it's pacing.
I just don't really like some of the stuff in FF6 such as the dull color pallet, the battle music, having over 12 main characters instead of the usual 4 to 8, the inconsistent pacing, and it's often raved as the best FF game and even in RPGs but I don't find that to be the case since I keep discovering old RPGs made around FF6 and I felt they where much better and resonated with me.
But it is cool to also hear about your talk about Chrono Trigger.
Thanks for watching and commenting! Spoiler for future videos but i dont think FFVI is the best in the series either lol. FFVI has a better story than CT IMO, but gameplay wise i think it is prrtty unremarkable.
@@StilesReviews I definitely Agree, I hope to see you brake down that FF6 video soon.
This is still my all-time-favorite video game review on RUclips. On par with MrBtongue's "Mass Effect 3 Ending" and RedLetterMedia's "Phantom Menace" reviews. Miss your content, man. Good luck with FF V ;-)
Thank you so much for your kind words, really means a lot to me.
I beat Lavos with just Crono and Marle in my party. Was worth it to see Marle cause a disturbance in the space time continuum to make her have Frog ancestry, despite the fact we only interfered with the future.
Did you just upload an hour long video at midnight?
I guess your target audience is people with horrible sleep schedules.
So in other words, thanks for the laser-targeted video.
I'll have to set aside some time to watch this tonight. This morning.
Lol it's been rendering/uploading for about Five Hours now so.. not purposefully? To be fair.. at the time of this comment it's only 9 30 PM here! lol Also GREAT TIming with this upload in general thanks to e3 and so on. Ya know... I'm great at this whole timing thing! Really my fans/viewers have been waiting so damn long that I uploaded it as SOON as it was finished, I assume they'll watch it when/if they want too.. plus there's Table of Contents in the description so people can watch it in parts. In all seriousness, Thanks for taking the time to stop by.
Hello from someone watching at 7am and badly needs to sleep lmao
Sure, because one has to watch a YT the minute it's uploaded...because they get stale with time and definitly are not ALWAYS AVAILABLE...right?...😒
@@tydendurler9574 I ended up reheating it later.
Finally!!
You're telling me. I've been just as (If not more) impatient about this video getting done. Thanks for stopping by, it means a lot to me.
EXCEPTIONAL work! While I love Chrono Trigger, I hate ATB combat on a deep personal level so I did have beef with it, same with the forced encounters. It IS true that no game is flawless and having someone actually admit the flaws of Chrono Trigger is refreshing and wonderful.
That said, I DO want you to notice something: When you mentioned RPGs on SNES with better graphics, presentation, AND story? Notice how EVERY SINGLE GAME YOU MENTIONED WAS NEVER RELEASED IN AMERICA! So that's a thing.
Similarly, yes, I WOULD say I found Chrono Trigger's story and characters better than Dark Souls, Mass Effect, ect. which I guess makes me reflect on what I consider to be a "good story". I don't like the idea that an videogame doesn't need a good story because I like story and characters...yet at the same time I cannot think of a game with "good story and characters" that I actually enjoyed. Shoot I'd even go so far as to say I prefer games with BAD story and characters because it's fun to laugh at them! I view games through an odd lens so I find the eternally shrugging Benjamin and his quest to defeat evil elemental fiends who heinously LOCKED WOODEN DOORS to be delightful. I love the Lufia series because of its oddball writing and the fact that I legitimately love the Sinistrals as characters. Shoot I interpret Phantasy Star Online as the story of the dumbest scientists in the universe being convinced to colonize a different planet in order to save Motavia (considering two planets have already been destroyed by trying to control the weather...and Motavia was NEARLY destroyed by trying to control the weather...what's the first thing they do when they get to Ragol? TRY TO CONTROL THE WEATHER! Oh but it's okay, they accidentally created The Uber Shrimp and were killed by its minions. Also, Griffons are a type of worm according to these geniuses).
I'm sorry, I'm rambling. Know what I think you hit on the right word though: FUN. I have a friend who is a big Chrono Trigger fan and plays through the game on a yearly basis and he admits the story isn't good, but that it's FUN. He likes the brightly colored "swashbuckling adventure" tone of it and THAT hits on something: TONE. There aren't a lot of RPGs with Chrono Trigger's tone. It hits the right blend of silly and serious to be immensely endearing. But what about Dragon Quest? Too silly and the characters usually come off as less developed and compelling than Chrono Trigger. Final Fantasy? Too serious.
Those interviews might reveal why Chrono Trigger is so endearing: It was a tug-of-war between the Dragon Quest and Final Fantasy guys! While that is where many of the flaws come from, that also makes the game a unique blend we may never see again.
Also, time travel is fun. Even if it IS just set dressing, it's REALLY GOOD set dressing. The variety of environments mixes well with the lighthearted swashbuckling tone.
The game does have two main standout surprises too. The death of Crono was surprising because...HE WAS a silent player insert protagonist! Yeah he was boring but...that was YOU. The game killed YOU off. That's...kinda interesting. It could have been done better, absolutely. But no one really saw that coming. They expected some kind of main character power to protect him. But no, he dies and there's a segment where everyone is sad...because YOU died (sorta). That's interesting and would be fun to toy with in a game where the main character is more...you know...actually YOU.
The other was that whole Ice Age period. It's a VERY sudden turn in the plot and an interesting one as no one had really even hinted at an Atlantis type civilization in this world. Not that heavily anyway. So it comes out of nowhere and is full of hella mystery.
When push comes to shove though, there's no such thing as "The Best RPG" due to differences in taste and focus. That really applies to any genre. Personally, my favorite RPG of all time is Final Fantasy Legend 2 and my dream RPG would be a better FFL2 (which I KINDA got with the DS remake but I also want more) and I wish more games were like THAT. But that isn't to say quality can't be assesed. Chrono Trigger would be ONE OF the best, but WHY? Near as I can tell after this video, it seems it has the broadest appeal of any JRPG ever.
So, good video. Got me thinking, which I think is what you wanted since every other discussion of Chrono Trigger is a circle jerk.
I think the lack of random encounters is a big difference. It doesn't catapult Chrono Trigger into a league of its own, but what's great about it nontheless is the predictability. In Chrono Trigger I can freely explore the world map to my heart's content, knowing that there'll never be a random encounter interrupting my travels. Also, more importantly, whenever I'm in a dungeon and I spontaneously decide to alter my planned course due to discovering something else on the other side of the screen or changing my mind, I typically don't have to worry about my additional steps causing encounters and a less efficient trek through said dungeon. I'd say that those two examples are actually the biggest advantages of how encounters work in Chrono Trigger. Coupled with the odd group of enemies I want to ignore here and there it makes for a pretty good improvement that mainly helps the pace along. Very cool channel, by the way.
Thanks so much for watching and commenting. Chrono Trigger's pacing is absolutely fantastic and i definitely see the argument that the random enounter structure helps with that.
There is another element of strategy which usually justifies the use of dual techs. Maximising damage dealt at once will minimise damage received from counterattacks. Those are common in Chron Trigger.
A weird thing about the Masamune is that it is called Granleon in the Japanese version, a name more in line with its European appearance.
The new game + is likely the praised aspect of this game I'm most indifferent to. The endings aren't really worth it, you'd have to keep fighting the same boss battles over and over again, and combat becomes trivial because you get to keep level, techniques and equipment. So there is almost nothing there.
Thanks for watching and commenting, I believe I mentioned the counterattack part when discussing the Queen Zeal boss fight, though it's been so long since I worked on this video that I may be incorrect.
The information about the Masamune is very interesting, I had no idea and I thank you for filling me in!
So now I'm wondering what your top fifty games would be. No challenge or snark here, I'm genuinely curious. Myself, I thoroughly enjoy this game, so if you can point me to fifty games that are better, I eagerly await that list!
That would be a hell of a task to make a top 50 haha. I dont know how much good such a list would do since 'better'is ultimately a matter of opinion anyway. I genuinely appreciate your interest in my opinion though!
I'd still put it in my top 5 and expect it to stay there as many other RPGs drop in and out within 5-10 years of their release. For that reason, it might be my favorite RPG of all time. There are a few reasons for this. 1. I still feel like SNES level 2D holds up really well. Something I can't say about NES, Playstation, or even Playstation 2 level graphics. 2. At 20 hours it doesn't outstay its welcome and is easily replayable. I still love the Dragon Quest series, but I haven't finished a DQ game since 3 because at a certain point I just stop playing. 3. The graphics, animation, and music are top-notch and full of personality. 4. The battle system is fun even if it's not complicated. The double and triple techs are fantastic. 5. Nostalgia, of course, but I think for good reason. I will never forget the atmosphere in Magus's castle. That's one of my favorite areas in a videogame ever.
If I had to pick a best RPG ever I'd be tempted to go with Divinity: Original Sin 2. I don't know if I'll be able to say that in 5 years, though. Or if we could pick just part of a game, the first act of the War of the Lions version of FFT.
Thanks so much for watching and commenting! I played Dinity Original Sin 1 but havent played part 2 yet.. i need to fix that
While I like Chrono Trigger, my personal favorite RPG list top5 is is as follows
1) Baldur's Gate 2
2) Persona 4
3) Final Fantasy IX
4) Undertale
5) Earthbound
I used to rate Earthbound higher but much as I love the game, the first few hours DRAAAAAAG until you get paula the game is a slow grind fest where you try to get strong enough to get through the next boss with grinding on par with the first dragon quest IMO. Also the exploding enemies in the game knock it down a ton. Every other game I Rate higher doens't make you stall in the introductory areas: PERsona 4 has the great set up and the battles aren't too hard, FF 9 has the cinematic series of fights that hit the pacing mark just right until the evil forest when the game really starts, undertale's unique "no one has to die" gameplay means the fights at the start are never tedious and are engaging and Baldur's Gate 2 sets up perfect stakes for your main character to pursue a goal, and the dungeon level opener is a great way to get you used to the gameplay. I see your points but I do still like Chrono trigger, albeit with a bit more of a sour taste in my mouth.
I might've included Earthbound, but I haven't played it myself yet ^^' I have the feeling it won't be my type of game based upon my preferences, but I still want to try it someday, if for no other reason than to eventually play Mother 3.
I also love FF9, it's one of my favorites, and Persona 4 I just recently started playing (about 3 months ago I think?) But I had to stop playing because of this very project actually.
I don't want people to not like Chrono Trigger, I also like the game, I just want to broaden the way people look at games. Thank you so much for watching and taking the time to comment!
Son of sun actually does have a bit of a puzzle to solve outside of randomly guessing. The fire bit that you need to hit is the only one that doesn't counter attack. So you can suss out which one to focus by hitting them with carefully placed aoe attacks and tracking the counter attacks.
Excellent video! I disagree with pretty much everything barring the things that even the fanbase admits are flaws (godfather paradox plot whole with Marle, Marle being bad late game etc.)
I replayed it recently and it is still one of the best games I've ever played. One thing I will say is that the game is definitely way more plot focused than character focused. You bring up the lack of focus on them a lot but that's kind of the intention of the work.
Thanks so much for watching and commenting. I dont really consider the game plot focused either, at least not deeply so. 'Save the World' is a plot i suppose... 'Save the World with Broken Time Travel' is still a plot but one that undermines itself constantly. There is no reason to harp on my thoughts, you already saw the video lol. Thanks again!
@@StilesReviews Nah you're good I still love discussion! What I mean by plot is the literary definition of plot. The sequencing of events. What makes the game brilliant is how the general history of the world is slowly revealed and how these seemingly un-related wacky events all end up all mattering to the larger plot. Zeal's reveal is one of my favorite story sections in fiction. It's where all of these elements the game elegantly introduces but doesn't overplay come together and it touches on on this beautiful idea of reaching beyond what is thought imaginable, in our dreams and reality. The sages, dreamstone, magic being a thing, Lavos impact on the planet, all of these elements given context here. Insane.
I love the game no less than before, but definitely appreciate your analysis of many aspects of it that often receive blind praise.
Thanks for watching and commenting! That was the true goal of the video, i should have framed some of my arguments less negatively, but im glad it atill remained interesting at least
YAY!!! New video!! Sadly don't have the time tonight to watch it, but tomorrow im going to sit down and enjoy with a good coffee! Been checking up on your channel to make sure I havent' missed anything since RUclips is being crap with notifications if you if you "CLICK THE BELL ICON". Good to see you again there brother!
Thanks so much, it's nice to see you back again too lol. Life's been hell this year... but I'm finally getting things back under control to an extent. It won't be another... 8 months before my next video I can garuantee that. Seriously, it's been so long that I wasn't sure anyone would check the video out, considering my AWFUL timing with e3 going on I'm incredibly happy with how many views I've already gotten. Hope you enjoy the video when you do get around to watching it!
Excellent video. It reminded me of the time when I heard nothing but praise for the game and then I actually played it. I thought it was quite good, but honestly undeserving of the "10/10 masterpiece" sort of title it always gets, especially in the gameplay (it's just too easy and offers not enough customization for my tastes. Not terrible gameplay, but not great either).
Also, love the channel. I subbed. I'm surprised you don't have more subs, considering the quality of your videos. I can't wait for the Chrono Cross video.
Thanks a lot for giving my channel a chance and for the sub! The way you described your first experience was mine as well. Everyone praised the game as brilliant and I am/was a huge Square fanboy.. so i bought the game for DS in High School and was... not that impressed. Of course at the time I didn't have the ability to truly critique the game like I did in this video.
On another note, I tend to get that comment a lot, "Surprised I don't have more subs based on the quality of my content". It truly means a lot to me. A big part of the problem is just life getting in the way of my videos... so I don't upload anywhere near as much as I'd like too/need too. Still working on fixing that. Got a lot of scripts in the works as we speak. Normally once I finally finalize a script the rest comes fairly quickly, but the writing is (I feel) my best asset, so I always agonize over it.
Anyway, you didn't need my life story, thanks again so much for watching!
Yeah, I wasn't as absolutely blown away as others were saying I would be. At first I thought I was simply being a contrarian, but the game never really got any better (in fact I would argue the flaws show themselves more later in the game, such as having little/no development for some characters).
Also, it's great that you get that comment a lot. Not only was I surprised by the quality, but I love the direction as well. It's refreshing seeing deeper analysis of games, and it reminds me of Dark Pixel (I actually found your channel through a comment on a video of theirs).
Overall, keep up what you're doing to the best of your ability.
Once again, sorry for the late reply, RUclips keeps marking your comments as spam, and I'm not sure why, so I've been getting them super late. Thanks you for the kind words, it truly means a lot to me. Really it is comments like these that keep all content creators going. I'm quite small, but I have quite a few friends/aquaintences whom are much larger than I am, and they all say the same thing. Please continue to spread that appreciation around, the community can use a lot more of it. Seriously, I've been in a slump as is (doesn't help that I'm working on Octopath Traveler and it's taking me more than 100 hours to finish the damn game) but this reinvigorated me.
I'm a fan of Dark Pixel gaming myself, reached out to them a while back a bit worried they would feel I'm stepping on their toes by doing a similar FF marathon, and they were quite kind in response. By chance, do you happen to remember what video the comment was on? I'm quite curious now.
@@StilesReviewsthis feels weird jumping into a convo 4 years later. But I've had a similar experience with my brother. He's 10 yrs younger than me, and seems to generally respect this game but hasn't bothered to finish it. It's not the masterpiece to him that it is to me. Yes, I'm in that camp - it's my favorite game to this day. Is some of that nostalgia? Sure. But I'm going to posit one thing that you brought up in your Mystic Quest video - context. It may be possible, given what you said about your first brush with the game being the DS version, that it lacked context to a degree. I mean that as a game and from a design stance. By that point, the jrpg market was packed to the teeth, with a lot of games presenting a lot of ideas. Chrono Trigger at this point was coming out as a retro release relegated to a handheld and jumping into a big pond.
When I played it, when I was in high school? That was the SNES version in its prime. In those later days of the SNES, Square dropped this, FF VI, and Mario RPG. These were the pinnacle of the genre for the platform. Especially in the west where we weren't getting the DQ titles to compete during this period. And even a number of other ambitious jrpgs wouldn't reach us until years later via fan translations. It brought a charming story, a mix of ideas from some of the industry giants, and ideas at that time that were fairly new. And, at least to me, it struck a perfect balance between the charm and whimsy of Mario Rpg and the apocalyptic weight of FFVI. But by 2008, well, players had a ton of games to choose from even just on the DS. And if we start talking about Playstation consoles the pool expands. So, tldr, I can understand someone jumping into the game in 2008 or later finding it to be good but not groundbreaking. Many of us who view it as a groundbreaking title, we played it when it broke said ground.
@@NeoConker626 You aren't wrong, though I was more trying to debate the argument that Chrono Trigger is STILL held up as the pinnacle of the genre, not it's place when it released.
I've said it many times now, but if I were to make this video now with all the experience I've gained, it would definitely be framed differently. I'm proud of the actual analysis, but dislike the overall tone and attitude of the piece.
I thank you very much for watching and commenting! I enjoyed reading you and your brother's opinions about the game.
So I was ready to offer up a possible explanation to some of the time paradoxes. I thought maybe the designers were going with the idea that the characters in the game were unaffected by changes in time due to time travel itself effectively removing them from the timeline, a concept explored in other medium like Chuck Palahniuk's Rant.
But upon a second watch of the video (yeah I actually watch most of these more then once) you reminded me of the scene near the beginning where Marle fades from existence when the party finds her in the past. This completely shat all over my possible theory and have no choice but to concede that the use of time travel in this game is a botched job at best.
Once again you deliver a very well thought out analysis and had me looking at something old in a very new way. I'm always open to ideas that challenge the established order of things and I can't commend you enough for your honest assessment and tackling a subject that these days seems beyond criticism.
Keep up the good work sir and I eagerly await the coming of "the Cross."
Yeah, I read up on a lot of fan theories on how 'the time travel actually DOES make sense if you just ignore the time travel bits' when I was researching for this video lol. I tend to dislike fan theories that are used to cover up writing mistakes. Some stories are ripe for interpretation, but most of the time it's just fans making excuses for something they love. I admire the dedication, but wish people were willing to admit that things they enjoy have issues lol.
The only book by Chuck Palahniuk I've read is the obvious one: Fight Club. I may need to check out Rant as well.
Thank you very much for watching (apparently more than once). That makes me incredibly happy, I know I have content creators that I repeatedly rewatch, so it means a lot to hear someone feels my videos are worth more than one viewing, especially because they are long and detailed. Thank you again!
Time travel in Chrono Triger might be inconsistent, but so are most examples in media entertainment. Very few franchises go for a hard sci-fi approach with fixed unchanging rules, and instead play it fuzzy based one the needs of any particular plot point.
Notably, Doctor Who is likewise a series where time travel is a core foundational aspect , yet much like Chrono Trigger mostly only ever uses the element as a framing device for changing up the setting with new fantastical locations in each adventure while only rarely delving into its own mechanical implications. It quite literally handwaves away inconsistencies by referring them as "timey wimey". Some events are fixed and unchanging, others are mutable. Some alterations have immediate consequences, others are delayed or seemingly irrelevant. Ostensibly there are rules, but they are something so complicated that only Time Lords like the Doctor are capable of full perceiving them.
It is often just hand-waved away in lots of media, but I don't like those hand waves whenever they show up. I think I touched on why I don't like time travel in general in the video.. but basically, lack of consistent rules automatically means there are no real stakes to the plot. Those rules are (generally) important to my enjoyment, because without them, nothing matters and anything can be undone with no real consequences, and a lack of consequences makes a story boring to me. Why should I be invested when the writer's themselves are admitting that nothing matters?
That's just my opinion though, I'm not faulting others for still enjoying it.
@@StilesReviews: Except there are stakes in Chrono Triger because the limitations of the time travel system only permit the group to travel to specific locations at fixed eras, meaning they don't just have infinite do-overs.
Even with the Epoch, that only circumvents the locational limitations, as the Epoch can still only travel between the same eras with the flow of time remaining constant between them. Spend an hour in the past and when you return to the future an hour will have likewise passed and vice versa. Why the Epoch is limited to those points in the timeline is never entirely explained, but it could be as simple as temporal coordinates being more complicated than just selecting a date, limiting them to points they've already been to with Luca's key.
There are only two exceptions to this constant flow of time. One is reviving Chrono, an action that requires a special single use McGuffin. The other is fighting Lavos on the exact day it awakens to destroy the world, something initially only accessible by a portal that is entirely different from the others, presumably because of how pivotal that moment is and how the time portals are linked to Lavos.
@@EmeralBookwise I made this video many years ago and have ejected most of it from my memory, but I did an extensive amount of research at the time on how the time travel works, and the only consistent theory I recall is that 'time travel doesn't effect the heroes... because they are the heroes'. I guess by what you say there are indeed stakes... but they have essentially infinite time to solve it. To have zero opportunity to stop Lavos, they'd have to survive another 65 million years for the time portals relative location to have passed Lavos' armageddon event. Same with Crono's death. If they were actually consistent with the linear time travel the game outright says it is using, they could've gone back in time and stopped an earlier version of Crono from ever having been in that Lavos encounter to begin with. It's all b.s. xD
@@StilesReviews: Except again, the fixed time periods they have available to work with preclude them ever being able to interact with themselves. Well, excluding Robo who makes the long trip from 600ad to 1000ad, after which he can hop back through a portal and hypothecary chat with his younger self. He still wouldn't be able to Warn Crono though because by 1000ad he has long since broken down, requiring Luca to make repairs.
I suppose they could try leaving a message to be passed down through the generations, but there are obviously multiple points at which such a message could be lost, and also requires their past selves to believe said message upon receiving it.
I agree entirely about game balance and power curve. Early/mid game is much more satisfying. The idea of lining up shots and timing attacks is much more defined in the early stages of the game. But by end game your best option is almost always AOE spam, which is kind of lame.
best rpg's, in my opinion, xenogears, ff4, ffx. There are others, but those are my 3 favorite games. Chrono cross is a great game, coming out just after (or before? I think after) ff6 and it was great as it was the residnet evil 4 of it's day, much less stiff, much more action, faster paced, and a ton of fun to play. I love chrono trigger, but it's the type of game that can't be expanded on like ff4/ff6, it is what it is, a short, stand alone story. Take away from it/add to it, and it messes it up.
Also, the sales figures are funny, i didn't buy ff4, i was too young, but my mom bought a used copy, but ff6 was my very first layaway ever, and chrono trigger i bought outright. Just funny to hear that not many other people bought at, is in mobile alabama, everyone i knew at the time had a copy of the game and played it like crazy :P
YES! Finally! Watching now.
I agree with most of your assessment of the characters having no ark. But videogames are an audio visual medium like movies and I think a lot of critics do a disservice by improperly critiquing their writing as if they were books. Chrono trigger still is one of the best games of all time based on its story as told within the audiovisual medium. Much like the selecting of the photograph at the end of FF15, you still recount the journey at the end of chrono trigger with a ton of positive sentiment. You can compare to a game like earthbound which is just as flat in terms of story but when you watch the credit roll at the end, you still have very fond memories of the journey. Chrono trigger tells a great story of a group of heroes journeying across time through amazing locations with the most beautiful music. You don't necessarily need great arcs to drive the story as you do in a book....although obviously it does help...which again makes ff7 the best game ever made. Come at me!
As someone who was very unimpressed with the game, and isn't analytical with video games, this video was fantastic! I was looking especially forward to the games' story and characters after hearing about how great the game was. I'm glad this video seems to invalidate that I'm "not getting it" or something like that.
Thanks so much for watching and commenting, always means a lot to hear people enjoy my content!
Damn I don't have time for this. I'll like chip at this in pieces between different night shifts. But no it isn't non linear or hands time travel/paradoxs well but neither any of the back to the future movies. That being said its pacing its characters its world and music have cemented it as my second fav rpg. In fact it came packaged with my fav Final Fantasy IV. Both tell a story using simple pieces motives and have some depth uncommon to the SNES era and when stacked with other games I tend to judge them against when they are made just as much as what is in them. Oh and before people think that only makes 16 bit jrpgs good for me third fav rpg is Tales of Vesperia. I look forward to enjoying this video and likely editing this comment a few times.
Thanks so much for commenting anyway, I hope it entertains you in small chunks! In case you missed it I DID put a table of contents in the description for easier viewing. Chrono Trigger is most definitely good, I spend quite a bit of time in the video praising it actually, I just wanted to bring some other points to the table because so many people seem to out right ignore the issues the game does have.
On a side note.. I enjoy most of the Tales games I've played.. but I stopped right before Vesperia.. I need to get back to that at some point.
Stiles' Reviews I have not played most Tales of games due to not having a ps3 but there is something about Vesperia that makes me just adore it. Even if the Japanese got a better version then us in Canada and lower Canada. Also good on you for time stampimg the vid thanks
Looks like you missed it then.. the remaster was just announced at e3 with all the bonus content.
YAY!
It was a SNES game there was only so much they could do in terms of how your actions change the ending
Also I disagree with some of what you said but that's okay because its your opinion thank you for sharing it is good to hear some one else's unbiased opinion that is not on a nostalgia trip, but for me this is one of the greatest games of all time
@@gumpyflyale2542 Thanks for taking the time to watch! We are absolutely allowed to have different opinions. I really like the game despite everything I said, I like the game more AFTER making this video than I did before. I would have framed my arguments a bit differently if I made this video now, but I still am proud of some of the points I made. I came off more negative than I should have, but I had fun just dissecting the game in such a detailed way in the first place.
Seriously, thank you for commenting, even if you disagree, it means a lot!
I beat Chrono Trigger for the first time yesterday and am happy I found this video as it summarises much of what I thought upon completion, a plot that falls apart in the last third of the game, gimmicks for boss battles, unbalanced combat, stupidly easy difficulty and an unappealing art style. Yet the graphics, soundtrack and presentation for the time are excellent, but that doesn't make a game great. Suikoden II is the best rpg of all time. Just happy that I am not the only one who felt this way about the game.
A lot of this feels misguided to me. Like when people smugly point out that David Bowie wasn't a very technically accomplished vocalist. Brain review of a heart game.
Fair enough, i feel great works of art should accomplish both aspects, and every single thing i 'debunked' is an arguement about the game ive actually read somewhere. Still a great game, just not, imo, the best rpg ever as so many people say it is.
@@StilesReviews I guess, without embarking on a whole essay in response, I would say that convincing human drama and psychological realism were never goals with this game. Yes, characters are broad, consisting of memorable visual designs coupled with one or two exaggerated personality traits. That's because they're patterned on ones from child's manga/anime and similar pulp adventure fiction. Chrono Trigger uses time travel the same way an old Saturday morning cartoon would: As a way to justify lots of wild adventure in cool settings. Sweating the rules and off-screen implications is a little like watching a monster mutation sequence in a Resident Evil game and then harping on the lack of proper attention paid to conservation of mass in something clearly and unapologetically aping schlocky monster flicks.
Similarly, questioning the mathematical efficiency (!) of squashing everything on the battlefield with a giant rainbow frog versus just whacking guys with your sword really seems like going to extremes to avoid embracing the intended mindset.
People love this game because it's a brisk, colorful, exuberant adventure across time with a overarching sense of humor, easy to love heroes, and unforgettable music. It's welcoming, funny, sweet, and cool. Lovable, you know? It emphasizes this very warm, human approachability that attracts the sort of people who find many other RPGs too dry, cold, or weird/pretentious for their own good.
To put forth a very rough analogy, I think it's a lot of players' favorite RPG of all time for the same sort of reasons Cowboy Bebop might be someone's favorite anime series of all time. Hopefully that makes some sort of sense.
Makes plenty of sense, and i appreciate your insight. For what little it is worth this video is a couple years old now and i absolutely would have framed things differently were i making it today. I stand by my points, but not the way i presented them.
Alright popcorn ready put the soldering iron down to watch this one was looking forward to this heck its a long one can't wait
Yeah, it's a long one even for me. My technically longest video, though my FFXV one was conceived as one video, and would have been longer had I released it as one. Gotta be honest, I'm looking forward to making a video that's much shorter next time lol.
I still love the game, but definitely see your point of view.
Thanks for watching! I'm glad you still love the game, I enjoy it quite a bit as well.
This didn’t sway my opinion, I already agreed.
I feel like you have the type of mind that would be more suited to reviewing scientific papers rather than whimsical video games, but it was an interesting take
Thanks for watching, i will choose to take this as a compliment lol
@@StilesReviews ahah yeah I thought you might
Anyhow, nice review. I don't agree with every point, but you had some real good ones, especially with the gameplay. I expected to be more peeved after watching this, lol.
The main theme in this game isn't about "the freedom of choice," however. The main theme is more so that "the freedom of choice may be an illusion" (which, from Lavos cultivating society, it markedly is). They weren't trying to make a non-linear, branching experience to begin with.
Thanks for watching and commenting. If I made this video today, I would've framed it in a less negative light, but I still stand by almost all of my points. I don't fully remember if I insinuated that the game was meant to be non-linear, or that people CLAIM it is non-linear and I was debunking that. If it's the latter I stand by it, if it's the former I don't haha.
I also don't think I agree with the 'freedom of choice is an illusion' idea as the theme... because you actively change history, there are multiple different endings based upon those actions. It is very much a story about the impact even a small few can have on the course of history.
Either way, I enjoy these types of conversations, and am not trying to come off as 'I'm right, you are wrong' at all, Just reiterating and clearing some things up. Seriously, thanks for watching and for the compliments.
@@StilesReviews That's exactly how I am; so no problem and thanks for responding so fast. I feel like your tone was fair enough; you said your pluses and minuses pretty spread. I believe you stated the latter; and so, those people are wrong. Most JRPGs aren't non-linear.
Yeah; with every work, there are multiple, subjective thematic interpretations. I was hesitant to even state what I felt the main one to be. But sufficed to say, there are elements of both of what we said presented in the story; so there's always going to be that overall doubt to contradict what those people are saying about--at least--"total" freedom. Same for real life.
Let me know if you'd wanna Live on this sometime. I enjoyed your style...and I'm quite honestly kinda tired of playing FF6. Lol.
@@StilesReviews If you do wanna do that Live, though, what I'd say is that those changes being made are rather "completions" than actual diversions in the flow of time. The same applies to everything from Lavos' arrival (why weren't the Reptites in charge at the start of the game?) to Lavos' ending where you're shown that the Lavos bit survives even after defeating him. Chrono Trigger is a closed time loop.
i like chrono tirgger but it's not my favorite rpg. even during my last playthrough i still think the game is good but it's not up there with some of my favorites .
it's on this pedestal and i'm glad someone gave some counter points.
also square did patch the game. there has been 3 patches and most of the issues were fixed such as the ui. i played it after the first patch and i think the port was fine.
also i'm surprised you barly touched on the ted woolsey translation. there are people going around that are saying the ds one does not have a soul or heart even tho it's much better then the snes one.
Thanks so much for watching and commenting! You basically hit the nail on the head about my point, I do think it's good. I went through about 10 different drafts of this script and it originally started off much more negatively... but I give the game a LOT of praise as well. In fact it's the parts where I praise the game that I'm most proud of in this video (The Section about how the maps connect in particular is something I'm still fond of).
I'm aware that Square has been continuing to patch Chrono Trigger on Steam, in fact a new patch came out three hours before I originally posted this video... that shows you just a small glimpse of how long this video has ACTUALLY been in production. It's still not complete however, and it shows a continued trend of Square's incompetence. They had to have known the port was unacceptable from day one, they just had to of.
I thought about touching on the script/translation more, especially because I'm prepping for my FFVI video and.. oof.. I hate Woolsey's interpretation of the script far more in that game than any other he's worked on.. likely because it's the game with the most serious story and it doesn't feel to me like he took it seriously. Really though the goal was to analyze the overall game, not so much the individual ports. I flip flopped on that bit for a long time, though, and I think you are right. I'm sure in about a week I will discover a bunch of things in this video I would have liked to change, and that likely will be one of them.
Thank you so much for watching and commenting! It's greatly appreciated! Thanks for the feedback regarding the translation bit as well!
If I recall, every encounter but one can technically be avoided in this game. Not that it makes it any better when you have to trial-and-error them.
Depends on how we define that. There are a lot of event encounters (The conveyor belts, the elevator, one of the door switches that automatically spawns bats on you, etc) That I'm pretty sure aren't avoidable. I'm pretty sure I got the 1 in 3 encounters statistic from the book I referenced towards the beginning of this video, but it's been so long now that I admittedly could just be talking out of my ass.
@Stiles' Reviews If you mean literal event encounters, then I got you. It sounded like you were saying overall--but I guess that means I was responding to overall as well. Lol.
Im pretty sure you are right and i was i plying regular positioned encounters and not special ones. More playing devils advocate at that point.
@@StilesReviews It's all good. It's not even really important when you can't see all those step-triggers. I'm bigger on scenes than gameplay in general.
Being honest I was always kind of turned off from Chrono Trigger because how great of a universal praise it received, it was pretty much a reverse Final Fantasy 2 (which I felt kind of attracted to, even with being the only FF game besides 15 I've never even tried out yet) situation, where they take the end goal of the review somewhat granted, "it's obviously good" (or bad in FF2's case), while not being able to get their feelings and ideas together, so they kinda throw stuff out like interesting time travel, fun characters or a unique tech system or approach to the "non-random" battles, kinda how you mentioned it in your Final Fantasy 2 video, where many reviewers did the same but with the negatives. And now, that I spent a better part of my week playing the game through (the android version, it was quite bearable and not at all annoying on phone, except some parts, especially when you fail targeting the right party member/enemy because you mistap and the game counts the whole screen as the A button) I must say I'm proud that I was able to get into this game while disregarding this overhype this game gets by fans, because this decision of mine awarded me with a great and fun experience of a wacky adventure with fun characters troughout the eons. I liked Chrono Trigger. In fact, it may have became one of my favourite jrpgs for the time being. But honestly I totally agree with you on every single part in the video, the presentation and the OST was nigh flawless and then we're starting to get into troubles.... Yea Crono sucks, I always hated silent protags, and concidering this fake choice gimmick this game has it really didn't make sense to have him this way, so when I learned of a party config not including Crono which can triple tech and fit to my playstyle I just used that 3 characters (Lucca, Robo and Magus) with only bothering with reviving Crono for the good ending, even though he is like a god tier character who deals insane damage with a single attack command. And yeah the main reason for that triple tech was also just to go through battles faster, if some tough looking enemies came I just Omega Lasered them, but around endgame I just switched that to spamming Flare and Dark Matter with a quick Uzzi Punch/Heal Beam from Robo when needed, so I wouldn't get caught off guard. Techs seemed a pretty cool gimmick in early game but ever since I started acquiring only single or all-targeting ones I kinda went the boring route and effectively nuked everything. It wasn't necessarily fun, but seeing 6 big enemies disappearing after one blow was always satisfying. Also yeah, screw all of those endgame content, I spent my whole life looking through guides for all of them since I just had little clue where to go, and while I enjoyed some of them, like the sunken desert story, and especially the part where Lucca goes back and faces her trauma, realizing the fact how little all of these actually change was really just a disappointment, though I still liked how some points of the game evolved (like with Ozzie and his descendant) it is still just a gimmick of the game I'd only mention as a factor that I subjectively liked, I wouldn't dare to say this makes the game brilliant. Also why are people saying how the game isn't linear? Literally the point is that it is linear, not disturbing you from your journey and wherever you go will guide to your next step, I honestly liked it in the game but it is not non-linear by any means. As for the characters, they weren't well developed but they were fun to see and roll with, kind of in a Final Fantasy 5 fashion (which is my favourite jrpg), and I didn't even mind time travel being off since I've never seen any medium perfectly implementing it without flaws. Neither of these flaws did break the game for me, but turns out I was right at realizing this unreal overhype and didn't let them become my expectations. This level of overhype ruins games like Undertale or Zelda BOTW for a lot of it's newcomers, and I've learned from a previous mistake how I should give _most_ games a clear chance when trying to experience it for myself, instead of the "everyone says it's fun so it must be" mentality. I played it, I liked it, it was worth it, and I'll also more than likely will replay it in the future, but it's obviously not the best jrpg ever. There isn't even really a best jrpg ever (except maybe FF6, that may be the least wrong of the wrong answers), the one that stands out to you should and will depend solely as your own subjective judgement.
Im seriously glad you played the game, formed your own opinion and enjoyed it, and while i didnt put forth my point as well as i couldve based on some reactions ive gotten to this video over the years, im glad it was clear enough for someone to get it despite the flaws in my presentation. I never meant to say the game was bad, in fact i quite enjoy it, just like you said overyhpe can make something not as fun for newcomers, or in my opinion it can hurt true critique. Getting compliments about my FFII video is a new one haha.. i look back on that one and cringe... but i dont plan on deleting it or anything. Either way, sorry for the long responsel thanks so much for the long and thorough comment. You will be happy to know im working on my FFV script as we speak.
@@StilesReviews well that for sure is great news. I've been having a blast kind of binging through your older videos lately and I'm sure your FFV video will be more than worth the wait, even if it's not a praising review, I'm just geinuinely curious about what you have to say about it
Thank you and everyone else who reads this for their insane patience. This yeah has hit us all hard in different ways and I appreciate it haha
Pat’s book argues that choices DON’T matter until the end. Not sure you are arguing against the correct idea. Also most people I know like CT because it’s aggressively linear and lean. Maybe I’m around the wrong people?
Interesting video!
The point of my video wasnt to refute his book, despite me disagreeing with some of his opinions it is well thought out and well written. I've seen people on several forums and in several videos say that the choices matter when discussing the game. I cant remember everything i said here, it has been years since i made it, but if i were to make the video today i definitely wouldve framed things differently. Thank you for watching and commenting!
I think the only thing that would make me consider why it was, not only one of my favorite, but many peoples favorite or why it can be "considered" one of the best is the fact that this game more than likely has something for everyone. Which to be honest is never seen in video games and not even most JRPG's. As most of them stick to a very certain standards. I know Chrono Trigger is flawed. Heavily. And I think why its praised very highly. Because its possible that everyone who plays it can give said person a different experience or have a different thing grab them more than others. NOt a defense of the game but I think its a interesting way to look at more of a way is how people perceive this game than others.
So obviously I hate all of your opinions and think you are wrong lalalaalalalalalalaalalalal I cant hear youuuuuuuuuuu
Seriously though man I know how much of a pain in the ass this video has been. But Goddamn it was worth the wait. This was one of the most analytical videos I've seen on a RPG and damn. While I still stand but my views on the game these are definitely things that can be criticized about. Awesome job man. And Amazing work
Ugh.. THIS guy... All right.. prepare yourself for a butt-kicking through text:
I definitely agree with that sentiment. In an earlier draft of the script I'd said that Chrono Trigger is what would happen if Dreamworks was an RPG development company. It has a large appeal in that way, and that's why I end the video by recommending it regardless. I keep trying to stress that people SHOULD like whatever they like. I even opened by saying that this would be an Unbalanced opinion on the game (Which.. I honestly feel ended up being more balanced than I thought it was while writing it ^^'). Making this video has given me a much greater appreciation for the game, not less of one, and that alone says a lot. I even though about changing the line towards the beginning where I said it wouldn't crack my top 50 RPGs.. I don't know if I still agree with that statement or not because the game is so damn charming... but as usual my endeavor is to try and bring more to the table, to get people to think, and to discuss the medium as an art form.
Thanks so much for making the awesome intro to this and for your continued support. You're always helpful, and I'm glad you think the video turned out decent. I think visually it's one of my better ones, which comes mostly from the new editing software. Thanks for watching and commenting! I should have another video out by.. I don't know.. does 2020 seem too soon for a five hour breakdown of what makes Ocarina of Time crap? That seems like the most divisive topic I can come up with lol.
@@StilesReviews Um... A FIVE hour annihilation of Ocarina of Time? I'll personally create an intro where I play my Blue Sweet Potato ocarina and then SMASH IT against a clock for Your video, if You decide to go through with making it. That game definitely needs to be shaken off of its high Epona!
P.S. When presenting OoT misconceptions, make sure You use the annoying fairy voice effect when listing them to draw parallels with how annoying fans and critics are when they claim OoT is "flawless"! ;-)
@@reviewsfromthenorth7929 I got the notification from this comment and thought, "What is he even talking about?" I'd completely forgotten that I made this joke all that time ago lol. Truth be told I've never beaten a Zelda game.. which is blasphemous given I'm a game critic.
Ocarina genuinely bored me... but I got less than half way through it ^^' lol
Really great listen man! Thanks a lot for destroying this game for me. I don't know if I want to play it now. ;)
Thanks so much for watching and commenting! lol. It wasn't my intent to make players not want to play it, just to actually give Chrono Trigger the respect of an ACTUAL analysis, not just a repeat of, "Man, this game is perfect!!"
Can you do a video on Suikoden II?
Thanks for watching and commenting, ive noticed youve commented a few times on my videos today, and it is very much appreciated! As for your question, ive wanted to play all the Suijoden games, but have my plate overflowing with other projects right now unfortunately. I appreciate you showing an interest in my content though!
Allways got the feelings that the team at Blizzard must have loved this game since many bossmechanics in World of Warcraft are direct copys of this games bosses.
Like say Kologarn in Ulduar are a carboncopy of Giga Gaia at Mountain of Woe
Beats the hell out of every final fantasy game i've played despite its flaws.
I definitely disagree, but i am glad you enjoy the game so much!
No u wrong
Game gud because I enjoyed it
Lol. I've gotten a bit of that yeah. Though I do think the game is good, just not the best game ever made.
When I was a kid, chrono trigger was the best game ever made for me. But I no longer believe that and I prefer chrono cross even to it. As a kid...in 1995, I enjoyed chrono trigger as a prestige game and also I could relate to the story because of y2k around the corner. However, I didn't enjoy it as an rpg as I couldn't be bothered to learn stat growth tables and damage calculation formulas. Nowadays, I feel the battle in chrono trigger is not well designed and too shallow to keep my attention.
How anyone can enjoy those atrocious filters is beyond me. It is not comparable at all to the dithering used for a CRT.
Yeaah this was made a long time ago and ive made a hard reversal on that stance xD
@@StilesReviews Glad to hear it. Good job analyzing this great game without the rose tinted nostalgia glasses, even if you destroyed my cherished childhood memories in the process.
Thanks so much for the compliment, im glad you enjoyed the video!
I feel this way about how people feel about the Golden Sun series. A series with insanely flawed writing, and brain dead difficulty in gameplay.
I've only dabbled in Golden Sun, but the dungeon design was the only part that really intrigued me
They repeat puzzles over and over. It's not the worst thing in the world when it comes to dungeon puzzles; just insanely repetitive.
They even have guesswork "puzzles" in some dungeons; you come across 5 ledges you can jump down and you can't see where you will land; pick the wrong one and you have to retrace your steps!
In the description: "Let's keep it civil." Two minutes into the video: "...the lack of intelligent criticism surrounding the game." Oh. Okay. So your critique is "actually thoughtful," whereas anybody who critiqued the game previously was lacking intelligence and thought. Let's keep it civil indeed.
Followed by my recommendation of an ENTIRE BOOK that I don't agree with the majority of but still think it highly intelligent criticism. Woo... you caught me.
he isnt wrong.
Other than disagreements I have with some of your arguments, there is one part where you are factually inaccurate. The time travel is horrid, but if you open the magic boxes in the past, you are unable to open them in the future making the magic boxes the one time they actually did time travel correctly. Good watch though and now subbed. Can't wait to watch more of your stuff
But it's not inaccurate. They made it work ONE way, but did not take into account BOTH directions. If you pick it up in the past first it deletes it from the future.. BUT if you pick it up in the future, then pick up the EXISTING one in the past, it would create a paradox. It is impossible for you to have picked up the one in the future, because if you pick it up in the past it will not have EXISTED in the future. It is a contradiction. It is impossible.
To make this visual: 1 = 1 with the first number being past and the second being present. If you Pick up 1 in the past.. it makes it look like this 0 = X with 'X' meaning non-existent. The item is now gone in both timelines. That's fine. If you pick up The item in the future it looks like this 1 = 0 Which is also fine. But.. if you take this template of 1 = 0 then go back in time to pick UP that past '1' it becomes 0 = X... because the 'x' means it never existed in the first place.
Default: 1 = 1
Pick up in Past: 1=1 becomes 0 = X
Pick Up Only in Future makes 1 =1 become 1 = 0
Pick up In Future and THEN past doesn't work because 1 = 0 becomes 0 = X (Nonexistent). The only way it could possibly make sense is if we ignore the grandfather paradox completely. The way it is handled now treats the item as if it is duplicated, which makes no sense because it is still just one item. Picking up the first SHOULD make the future version disappear from your inventory, because in linear time travel, your meddling in the past makes the future's version not exist. It doesn't matter when the time traveler interacts with each box, because time is linear, even if their actions IN time aren't linear. Removing the item from a box doesn't make it immune to the laws of time and space.
In other words, the only way for this to make sense is if picking it up in the future also blocked you from picking it up in the past. Maybe when you 'talk' to the chest in the past, it's putting a magical seal on it, making it impossible to open by anyone UNTIL the future.. which means that no one can CATCH you in this time paradox. That would have made sense with the plot and given a choice element. Would have been super interesting if the future item wasn't always better.. if you had to choose between two powerful pieces of equipment.
Edit: Actually let's use your own logic to explain this in a (hopefully) less confusing way, because I look up at my post and think 'I don't think that is very readable". Picking it up in the past chest erases it from the future. Wouldn't that happen no matter what? Even if you pick it up AFTER it's been removed from the magic chest in the future? Picking up the past one should ALWAYS erase the one from the future, is my point. Whether the future version is in a chest or in someone's pocket, it would cease to exist if the earlier one is tampered with. Sorry this was so rambly.
I'm glad you enjoyed the video regardless, I'd love to hear some of the disagreements and I appreciate you taking the time to watch!
I get your point now, that you did explain well in the video, but I think I misheard it or was doing something else at the same time. Honestly, time travel sucks and would never work
It is a confusing concept and I believed that I might have not explained it well in the video, so I appreciate you pointing it out either way, hopefully if someone else has the same concern they'll be able to see my more thorough explanation here!
about the time paradox, i have to disagree with your explanation. if they follow the true time travel theory, there would be no way they can "prevent the apocalypse" due to "the event has already happened in the future". if they change the past and change the future, there is no reason for them to start the quest to change the future to begin with because the future already changed. thus for a time travel story like this to work, they have to abandon the "time travel theory" and go with the version of time travel that "changing the past can affect the future without effect the reason for them to change the past in the first place". its more complicated because it often make no sense, like how time travel work in Doctor Who. think of it as they creating a rift in time which allow them to walk out side the timeline that they are not truly belong to
as for your argument to Chrono Trigger not being the best RPG of all time. my argument is that NO RPG is the BEST of ALL Time. because new RPG will keep being made and eventually one will surpass the other. my argument is that if one day I have a child of my own and want to introduce them to the world of RPG, I would likely chose to introduce them to an RPG such as Chrono Trigger
Thank you very much for watching! My point with the time travel part wasn't that it doesn't make logical/scientific sense.. but that they contradict themselves in their own writing. If they'd just thrown up there hands and said, "Time travel works because I say so!' then it would have (In my opinion) been BETTER than the fact that they attempted to explain it, but it explained it in a way that causes it to make no sense. You are right though, without this contradiction there would be no game... I just wish it had been better written or they'd come up with a better excuse.. or that they'd had no excuse at all and just said 'it's magic'.
I also agree that CT is a great starting place for newcomers to the JRPG genre, it is a very good game.
uh... no. this is not how its supposed to look. what its supposed to look like, is the biliner filtering. thats all.
You arent the first to point this out, and ive since changed my stance on that particular type of filtering, i dont agree with my past self on that one lol.
@@StilesReviews ok, i didnt expect a prompt reply from a years old video... anyway, you made a great review, basically pointing out why i didn't like chrono trigger. actually, you destroyed the game, but thats fine.
when you get to final fantasy 6, i hope you wont completely destroy it...
Im a small channel so i try to be responsive. In this particular case i just so happened to get internet setup again right when the notification came through. Thanks so much foe the feedback positive and negative, and thanks for watching and commenting! Really means a lot.
While I realize you are playing devils advocate and are focused on the whole masterpiece status I do think you were overly harsh in your critique of the game. I will say though especially your thoughts at the end with Yuji Horii were spot on. I will also say I don't think Chrono Trigger is the best game of all time but I would say its one of the best snes games of all time. Ocarina of Time and FFVII came out shortly after and were also games praised as being best games of all time. I think it had more to do with many people's age at the time and it being one of the first games of its type people encountered. Its easy to see how Ocarina of Time was considered the best game when it first came out. No one had experienced a game quite like it. But it was easily overshadowed by other games that came after. But you know what they say - You never forget your first. I also prefer non silent protagonists myself but since Crono is a silent protagonist its obvious that the characters personality has to be imagined. This also carries over into the other characters and scenes. You have to interpret and infer the answers that the game doesn't provide which was the style of storytelling in the dragon quest games and even the early final fantasy games. This has the potential to make the game and story more your own. There are many things in this game that are simple but not necessarily lacking depth (it is possible for there to be depth in simplicity). For instance, I interpreted the Entity that they mention at the end to be God basically who is the silent hand that guides them through the story. I know that there are many people who hate random encounters with a passion so its easy to see why those people would love this game (not me though). I know that the short length of the game is also something that appeals to many people. I also know people who really appreciate the way Chrono Trigger handles the multiple endings due to the ability to see them all in a second playthrough instead of playing the game 11 times. Also some people hate grinding and would rather level their character through a second playthough of the game in order to max everything out instead of repetitive grinding. Also your argument against double or triple techs falls apart due to the fact that it is a choice to use them. You don't have to use those techs at all if you don't want to. You can use them sparingly. You could also vary your use of them depending on what you want to do and on what is strategically viable. What is cool about them is it really makes your team feel more like a team. I do think there are better games out there myself but I do love what the game has to offer. Also games back then tended to be targeted to kids (Just sayin). I could go into detail on my interpretation of the story but I don't think thats necessary. There is a timelessness though to the music, art and how the game ends.
also, chrono trigger is *not* a turn based game.
ATB is still turn based. No two attacks can occur at the same time and it has no active inputs. Time is always flowing so if you are too alow you effectively have your turn passed over.
Agreed, overrated af
"...immediately falls flat under ANY form of intelligent scrutiny..." Alright man, we get it. Everybody who has a different perspective than you is either less intelligent than you are or failing to utilize their intelligence. Wow. And you accuse people of arrogance for simply giving a game critical praise? That's NOT what arrogance is... arrogance is claiming that your take on the game is the only intelligent critique and that everybody else was lacking intelligence. Those were LITERALLY your exact words. I was really interested in your perspective until I started actually watching the video, and now I can't take you seriously. I made it like five minutes before your arrogance completely turned me off. I still believe that you probably have a valid perspective, but, dude, you need to repackage it, because I can't even continue watching this, despite my interest. Holy moly.
Sorry you couldn't get into it, genuinely thank you for trying out my content in the first place... but I feel I must point out that Those were 'not' my exact words. I just rewatched the section of the video to make sure because I'm definitely open to constructive criticism and wanted to check for myself.
What I said was: "...but beyond that there are statements I see repeated that are factually incorrect; Statements like, "Chrono Trigger is a non-linear game that lets your choices effect the game world" and "Chrono Trigger Handles time travel well!" fall immediately flat under any form of intelligent scrutiny." This is an 'attack' on the statements, not an 'attack' on the people who make those claims. I do see how it could be interpreted otherwise (Like how you somehow interpreted parts of my video as me calling others arrogant for having another opinion, when I didn't do) but you are the first I've seen make this complaint. Especially when just a couple of sentences before I admitted that there are debatable aspects of the game's design (Which clearly indicates that I DON'T think my opinion is the only one that is valid).
Though I do admit that the statements are a bit inflammatory: they were meant to be so that I could hopefully capture people's attention, especially since I do long form critique as opposed to short reviews and I want people to stick around. I had to 'bait the hook' somehow... It's a pretty standard writing tactic, but In your case it happened to backfire.
You are admitting to being upset specifically by the language I used, which I can understand, I've been turned off by such things in the past, but I'd hope that anyone going into any critique or review would understand that they are, by default, an opinion piece, and that not every claim made needs to be labeled with a note saying, "This is just my opinion and you are free to have your own!" Because... of course you are.
I'd be lying if I said I didn't feel that the thoughts I expressed in this video are 'correct' otherwise... I wouldn't have put them into a video in the first place. I don't want to risk generalizing too broadly, but I don't think most critics or reviewers purposefully make videos claiming something other than what they think is true, so I don't really see how I'm different in that regard.
That said, you are right, there are parts of this video I wish I'd worded differently... but the entire point of the less than three and a half minutes of the video you've chosen to critique was to try and get people's attention, if you had watched the video you'd be able to decide for yourself if the things I pointed out as 'Facts' are enough to back up my 'Intelligent scrutiny' statement... which.. I feel they are since I point out absolutely factual flaws with the game in the few rare cases it is applicable.
If you ever think to give my content a try in the future, I thank you for it, if not, I thank you for the attempt anyway. I don't want to risk coming off as arrogant by saying I think you are wrong... but I definitely think there was a miscommunication given that I don't think you really know how I speak or present. It was not an intentional insult and I am genuinely sorry if it came off as such. I could have chosen a better word than 'intelligent', but this is all a reflection on my poor attempts as a writer and wordsmith and not a purposeful insult.
Edit: And OHHH!!! I did use the word Arrogant.. while I was personifying the game ITSELF. As in.. the game is so often held up as perfect that the game itself almost feels arrogant to me, and I want to bring the game down a peg. Perhaps a failed play on words, but I was not calling players or critics arrogant in that statement, but I did, in fact, use the word 'arrogance'.