Bye Calvinistic Christianity
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- Опубликовано: 2 мар 2023
- Dr. Leighton Flowers plays a clip from former Calvinistic Christians who are now unbelievers talking about why they left the faith.
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Tyler Vela's deconversion: • Calvinist Apologist Le...
Paul Maxwell's deconversion: • Why Paul Maxwell left ...
Megan Phelp's deconversion: • Romans 9 leads Megan P...
Derek Webb's deconversion: • Derek Webb: A Reformed...
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Just received a copy of your book Dr. L. Flowers. Im reading 'The Potters Promise'. It's a great easy read. Highly recommend it! Had to let you know I can't put it down. Thank you. My family is praying for you. Keep doing what God has determined you to do for the glory of His Name. I believe the Lord will use your platform (and others alike) to keep true the better interpretation of Gods sovern grace and will for our salvation. After this video, Im praying with you for all who struggle with being elect or not, drawn hopelessly to believe that God may not have mercy on them or their loved ones. God bless.🙏
can i get some copy or is it a hardcopy?
@@ralphjay1816 Hi, my son purchased the book for me in paper back. He got it online eBay I think. God bless.
Read Arthur Pinks Sovereignty of God....beautiful.
"determined you to do".. really?
@@dubbelkastrull Well, yes, I believe God determines things too!! I just dont think He determines everything before the foundation of the world. The Bible is clear God foreknows all thing from eternity. God knows how to gets things done, through us, in us, for us and we praise and honor Him and His Glorious Name. God is always in control and works through us even through our free choices, to get things done. Thats how he has determined things to be.
I came out of Calvinism in Nov 2022 and I’m still unraveling the effects of the belief system, including how I now have to re-process serious hurts from others. But I feel like my relationship with Christ has grown in leaps and I feel free.
Elizabeth, Do you hear Jesus in Matthew 6:14-15 "
For if you forgive others their trespasses, your heavenly Father will also forgive you,
but if you do not forgive others their trespasses, neither will your Father forgive your trespasses."? Consider what Jesus said about forgiveness, I hope it helps with your hurts.
@@christianmama2441I'm sure you didn't help. She never said anything about not forgiving people, but you took it upon yourself to assume it.
It gets easier…
I came out of Calvinism in October of 2022! I relate very much to what you wrote
@@graftme3168 encouraging forgiveness in regard to being seriously hurt is never bad advice.
I left Calvinism a month ago. After opening my mind up to the possibility that it could be a lie, it turned out it was. Logically and philosophically it doesn’t make any sense at all
Praise God, who sets us free from our captivity!
Blessings from Finland !
May the Lord continue to light your path and bless you mightily!!
Good for you, I've always felt that it was not biblical. A friend of mine of 30 years cut-off all communications with me because I would not side with his Calvinism.
Notice you said “logically and philosophically.” You left out Biblical
I left Calvinism last Sept 2022. No one influences me just reading the scripture plainly, I thank God that I am across this channel to grow.
GREAT for you...Glad u saw the truth.....Maranatha
Amen! Scripture can be understood by all. No need for pre filters and "expert" interpretation, that leads to eisegesis.
@@goodshorts I would be very careful with that statement its how we have so many dominations and no scripture cannot be understood by all understanding of the word if a gift of the Spirit that not everyone has. I would be very cautious if your relying on your own understanding of scripture.
Acts 8:30-So Philip ran to him and heard him reading Isaiah the prophet and asked, “Do you understand what you are reading?”31-And he said, “How can I, unless someone GUIDES me?” And he invited Philip to come up and sit with him.
Proverbs 3:5-Trust in the LORD with all your heart, and do not lean on your own understanding.6-In all your ways acknowledge him, and he will make straight your paths.
God Bless and keep your eyes fixed of Christ :)
But would God want/choose to do what Calvinists suggest He would want/ to choose?
No.
It not a mystery (guys, really?)
Calvinism is a contradiction to everything thing God says about himself
@@firstorder438 anyone can pick the Bible up and understand it if they humble themself to God's Word. I would be careful of claiming that you need a preacher or a priest to tell you how to interpret scripture.
I agree with you on one thing, keep your eyes on Jesus.
I almost lost my faith due to my former Calvinistic theology. Luckily I had some real encounters with God and knew what scripture said about him, so I continued to push to see who God is, and what he showed me through the Old Testament was truly incredible. He was so full of mercy and kindness and wants all people to repent and turn to him. I then read the New Testament letters in full, and was able to see the falsehood of Calvinism much more clearly. Your ministry as a whole has been so helpful, so thank you.
Jon Koepnick your flesh has the ability to believe on Jesus? Since when? Also, saving faith is a gift from God and cannot be lost.
@Marlin Take it easy, pray for them instead of laughing at them.
@Marlin Pray for the salvation of their soul, after all you do not know which one of these is elect, only God does.
@Marlin They are willing sinners, what victimhood? Are we not all God haters by default and lovers of blasphemy in the unregenerate state?
@Marlin What you just said about the poor widow that put the 2 copper pennies sounds off. Jesus praises her faith in donating her last pennies, so if she is some kind of victim, at least Jesus praises her deed and will do her justice. Just because these women give money to the churches with false teachers, maybe they are doing it out of faith in God and that furthers the condemnation of those false teachers who prey on such souls. I would not be so quick to judge these things, yes there are plenty of false teachers, but each believer has the Spirit in them to guide them into all truth. Sure, we should expose false teachers, I agree on that.
Hearing the deconstruction stories based on Calvinism was heart-breaking. Appreciate your persistence in sharing these truths.
It truly is heartbreaking 💔
This is helping me. I am leaving the Calvanist church i have gone to for over a year. It is so toxic for me. It has damaged me and I am praying for God's restoration.
Yahweh is a good God. So, so faithful and caring. Beyond compare and comprehension. Not a whole lot like us, in our present state. Stay with The Lord. Don't leave Him. There is a good church out there somewhere for you.
I hope all has gone well for you since you left this message. Here's a little encouragement. I've never met a calvinist who wasn't themselves, deterministic and are ok to just agree to disagree when you debate them. They will straight up tell you, if you don't agree with them, that you were predestined and condemned to hell, not because you refuse to accept their view, but rather, you refuse to believe because God has already chosen you for hell.
The interview with Derek Webb reminds me of what I was told about my great-grandfather. His father was a Calvinist preacher (they called them Primitive Baptist or Hardshell back then). My great-grandfather lived in rebellion against God his whole life, and his excuse was that he was predestined to do so. I’m glad that my grandfather was able to break free from that doctrine and come to faith in Christ.
Man. Love your heart here, Dr. Flowers. It really is about souls!! My heart is very sensitive to this topic… Because this Calvinism doctrine would’ve so easily jacked me up long ago. I see myself in so many of them. Praying that our loving gracious Lord, who LOVES each and every one of them, will work on their hearts and draw them to Him… what a testimony that will be!! Praying! God bless you, Dr. Flowers!!
I left Calvinism officially years ago but didn't realize how much Calvinism still influenced my Biblical teaching. It has been a process for me. Learning to read the Bible in context and interpreting it as it says, literally has been life changing.
Brian, ok but do you obey Jesus in your daily life? Because Jesus won't quiz you on that day if you are a calvinist or aminian in theology, He is going to see what kind of fruit he finds in you....either the fruits of His Spirit in you or your flesh's fruits.
@@christianmama2441 please, don’t get religious about his testimony
@@christianmama2441one thing is for sure you ain’t helping a single person turn to Christ
Repent and take your religiosity outta here
Left it 4 yrs ago. Dr Flowers and Kevin Thompson/BTF were such a blessing.
Thank You Dr Flowers for your ministry...I was struggling with calvinism to the point of depression and loss of hope when I found you here on youtube...my hope is now alive and well thanks to your teachings.
I often hear Calvinists use "consistent with the text" and it just blows my mind. 😞
DW: Many years ago - I asked the Lord to help me understand what was going on in Calvinism.
He directed my mind to scrutinize Calvinist language as a way of understanding the human response to the doctrine.
The more I scrutinized Calvinist language - the more I discovered it is a language designed to mislead.
It is the language someone speaks to himself when he is lying to himself.
There is a form of dishonesty known as "ALTRUISTIC DISHONESTY"
ALTRUISTIC dishonesty is designed to protect a "TARGET". People who tell lies for the sake of a TARGET report they would have felt worse if they told the truth - because they would be revealing things about the TARGET they do not want people to see.
This form of dishonesty is integral within Calvinism and is considered a form of religious piety.
So "Pious Dishonesty" is an integral part of Calvinist practice.
Telling lies of omission is an integral part of Calvinist practice.
Painting false pictures of the doctrine is an integral part of Calvinist practice.
I am convinced - if one scrutinizes Calvinist language - one will discover all of this.
This was so wonderful. I saw your heart and I pray that others will also. And yes, if any one who believes that Calvinism teaches what is true about determinism and if that person thinks about it and draws it down to its logical conclusion then they will know that all it leads to is despair and hopelessness. I was in that place and had to leave my church of 23 years. I went to a church that I knew God would use to restore my faith and my hope in God. It has been a gift and blessing from God.
You are very blessed to find such a church near you. All the churches around me are either woke, calvinist or an excuse for sunday morning rock music 😬😠😩😰😡😕😨
@@chrisneeds6125 Prayers for you. What I did was find churches in my community and then I looked to see if they had their Sunday morning messages on line to watch. This was incredibly helpful to me. When I narrowed it down I had my husband watch several messages to see what he thought. Truly, prayers for you to find some place where you can fellowship.
@@sharonlouise9759
Thank you Sharon and bless you too. Thankfully i still have blood family left with whom i fellowship. I also watch at least four hours of Dan Mohler every week to stay sharp in THE WORD, to always have an answer when questioned about why i am in faith, why i have relationship with my Lord.
Stay strong Sharon and do not be deceived, there are *many* good looking but very false sheep out there ♡♡♡
"despair and hopelessness" are perfect descriptive words.
@@sharonlouise9759 That’s a great way to search.
This is interesting because for me as a teenager I was on the fence. My dad was pretty much a Calvinist and he argued against the Arminian position but not in an arrogant forceful way. At college it was Romans 9 that convinced me that Calvinism was absolutely true and therefore I stuck my stake in the ground with my church. It was a few years later that Romans 9 convinced me that calvinism was a lie, because I started to cross reference. But it was Jer 18 that undid my calvinism, like it was the one knot when undone everything unravelled. It is painful to go through that transition because Calvinism is not a doctrine but a theological grid through which you see everything and therefore everything needs to be re-examined.
Salvador, Jesus preached a sermon, the sermon on the mount....do you do what He says? Because if you don't, you're not saved but deceived. Yes, faith alone in Christ alone is right, but that faith will lead you to follow Jesus in your life. The rest of calvinism or arminianism is almost irrelevant, what's relevant is do you HEAR Jesus in Scripture and do you obey Him? Matthew 7: 24 “Everyone then who hears these words of mine and does them will be like a wise man who built his house on the rock. 25 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat on that house, but it did not fall, because it had been founded on the rock. 26 And everyone who hears these words of mine and does not do them will be like a foolish man who built his house on the sand. 27 And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and beat against that house, and it fell, and great was the fall of it.”
@@christianmama2441 Amen. Being a disciple is what is most important. Not being a Calvinist or Arminianist. I got saved while I was a Calvinist but in my comment, I was simply sharing my story as honestly as I could in relation to what was spoken of in the video. Is there something wrong with that?
I have made videos dealing with Calvinism and Romans 9 so it is a subject that means a lot to me as it has affected me personally. But I certainly was not implying that leaving Calvinism makes you right with God. These gentlemen are evidence of that. They have rejected the gospel in their rejection of Calvinism.
But this also means that we need to show understanding to people who’s Calvinism is undermined because it is an involved process that can be painful. We need to walk with such people and also lead them to keep their focus on Christ as they reevaluate their unbiblical soteriology.
But you are right to emphasise that we are Christ followers, not Calvin followers or Arminian followers. It is the life of Messiah expressed through us that is more important.
@@msindisi By the way, I'm 5 point calvinist and came from arminian theology. It means nothing special to me, loving God is the special part, He is my Savior and I am compelled to follow Jesus regardless of the cost. Jesus Christ my greatest treasure that I would give my very life for.
@@christianmama2441 That is wonderful. Praise the Lord that Calvinism is something you hold to but don’t feel you need to defend because loving Jesus is the most important thing.
I was different. When I was a Calvinist I felt I had to defend my Calvinist ideology. I was not like you. Now I feel that relationship with the Lord in obedience and following Him is more important. Unlike yourself, I had to leave Calvinism before I could appreciate that. I guess I put tulip over the Lord Himself and tried to emulate the God of TULIP instead of emulating Christ.
@@msindisi We all have different journeys. Having said that, I think I was pretty hot headed too when younger in my faith, I still defend calvinism, but insist that it doesn't matter how we got the faith in us, what matters is that we do have this faith and belong to Jesus Christ. I went from Arminian to calvinist a while ago, but have christian friends in both camps.
Just listened to this again on Spotify and it just breaks my heart. Calvinism is NOT a harmless doctrine.
Yes it is. In fact, It's pure garbage.
It really is about the concern for the souls impacted by these doctrinal discussions. That is a huge deal. 💕
Our new Calvinist pastor told us God doesn't love anyone because we are sinners. We left about 6 months ago. The teaching was depressing.
Any teaching that constantly pushes the idea that believers are “sinners” will ultimately lead to this strange ideology, especially if the teacher is Calvinistic. First of all, believers are not considered “sinners” and Paul never once refers to any of his hearers as “sinner”. The terms Paul uses are “Child of God”, “Joint Heir with Christ”, “Saints”, “Sanctified”, “Redeemed”, “Light in the Lord”, and so many wonderful others. But from a Calvinistic perspective God not only hates SIN but also hates the SINNER and hates ALL SINNERS, so logically it follows that God hates believers, and your pastor was being consistent in this.
But God does NOT HATE SINNERS. He doesn’t. Not at all. God LOVES sinners, but in a particular way.
This is the way God loved the world of sinners/unbelievers/those under the dominion of Sin… He freely gave His only Son so that these sinners could m, by faith, be reconciled to Father.
God loves His own children, those who have faith in Jesus, in a different way than the way He loved the world. … yet God never hated the world, instead He would reject those who reject His Son. And it is not by God’s decree that they would never believe, but rather by His great mercy and patience that He, in His sovereignty would call to them day and night.
@@JonathanGrandt These are complicated topics, but none-the-less, he that does - is. And the one who says he is in him is ought walk as he does. Perhaps I'm the insane one, but I think it crazy when people think all these positive titles can be freely used of themselves, but they also think they are 100% guaranteed to sin some time in the future.
One has to wonder where these pastors are trained, that they come to deny one of the most basic teachings of the Bible.
@@cmk5724 He is a new grad from The Masters Seminary-John McArthur
@@JonathanGrandt Well said!
It's so sad that a misunderstanding of scripture can cause people to abandon Christianity.
I have faith that these people will come back, and pray for their journey.
God is patient. He is long suffering. He desires them. God in His sovereignty, by the power of His Spirit kept me safe from the pitfall of Calvinism, though I headed in that direction.
@@JonathanGrandt I have come to an important insight or understanding about HOW God works: God knows each of us intimately as we were created by Him. He knows our personality, history, temperament, talents, strengths and weaknesses, THEREFORE, our journey will be tailored to us. It will not be like the journey of others. Some will have very straight and fast moving paths to salvation while others will be slower with many twists and turns.God knows exactly how to be effective with every individual, given the individual differences.
Trust God, and not what you observe of another. What we observe of an other is but a moment in time.....and the next moment may look and be very different.
When these people deconstruct, they usually go through a season of immorality and social justice against certain offenses they encountered at church as if the world is better and more sensible than Christianianity. What brings them back is usually an encounter with evil people and the consequences of their own sins which makes them realize they can believe in God while maintaining distance from the problems that made them give up in the first place.
@@sheilasmith7779 Well said!
@@JonathanGrandt Same for me as well! God Bless You! 💕✝️💕🇺🇲
There is a long term spiritual illness and toxicity that Calvinism leaves with anyone who is in recovery from it.
I’ve been out of it several years and am a MH therapist who engages in self care, but I still feel the infection of Calvinism emotionally and psychologically. It’s a brutal disease that wreaks havoc on a persons spiritual being. Thank God for Dr Flowers.
DW: I would love to hear your insights Paul!!! If you were ever interested in stopping by SOT101 and chatting there. But in any case - I thank the Lord he delivered you!! Blessings!
@@dw6528 I’d be open to that.
@@paulmoore-LPC-LMFT-NCC Wonderful! Whenever you have time - pop over to SOT101 and post a comment. Looking forward to your insights! Thanks! :-]
@@dw6528 what’s that channel? I can’t see it.
@@paulmoore-LPC-LMFT-NCC I would like to hear more about your experience too.
This is your best podcast yet Dr. Flowers. By the grace of God, I left Calvinism about three years ago. It really takes the supernatural working of God to help you take the tulip glasses off. Once I took off those lenses that were skewing my vision, I saw God’s love for all mankind.
I am so glad. Praise God 👏 🙌
You should look into Orthodoxy and you'll see how broken and separated the church is. My brother taught me about Calvinism and it totally broke my faith and left me heart broken for years.
The end of the portion is what happened to my ex-husband who recently divorced me. He just completely walked away from the faith because his actions didn't match up with following Christ and just gave up. He was what I called a "fruit checker", always equating salvation with if you were producing fruit rather than relying on if what God said was true about Christ's work on our behalf. Also he thought that the Holy Spirit would magically just make our marriage better because we were Christians without doing any work on our end. We were both Calvinist the whole time we were married and when we were confronted with what the bible actually said (last June for me), I went one way and found joy in God's provision, and he just left completely, divorced me, and is now dating a non-believer he met at work. He also walked away from church altogether so he has no Christians around him to call him out on his rebellion. My heart hurts for him every day, but more than the marriage falling apart, I'm terrified how close he was to finding peace and yet will never have it without Christ.
Ironically after the divorce, he said he actually can see why I believe Leighton and Mike Winger's interpretation, and I said yeah it's actually a decision to follow Christ, not just your mysterious preselection before the foundation of the world. I think with Calvinism, you can never know if you were truly chosen and I think that causes a lot of people to focus on their outer fruit works and judge others based on if they're serving enough at church and not checking if they're spiritually dead. It gets really exhausting and that was also why he has all this anger at church as well.
That's heavy and excellent point. Keep praying for him and we all will do to :)
@@g.michael3760 thank you so much
Coming out of Hyper Charismania- I almost went Reformed- thinking that God could be the author of evil and create people for damnation- made me almost see no point in Christianity. I sort of didn’t want to be a Christian, but Jesus was so real to me. Therefore, I just concluded Calvinism wasn’t the truth on their Tulip Doctrine and Predestination. I prayed ask The Lord what the truth was and I found this Podcast. God is good.
He is trusting in his works rather than on Christ for his salvation. That's the issue with most Calvinists--they are not saved, do not have the Holy Spirit, and trust in their intellectual knowledge and their own works rather than on Christ. It is works-based salvation, and it leads people straight to hell by keeping them in the captivity of false religion. There are demons at work in Calvinism--always has been. It's why it is a doctrine of demons. It opens the door for religious pride demons to come in masquerading as a counterfeit holy spirit to keep those people in darkness. If someone is coming to faith and get deceived into Calvinism or any other erroneous discipleship, they don't get saved and born again. It's like a breached birth. Or they are standing in front of the door to God's grace but are content to peak through the keyhole and then speculate and imagine what must be on the other side without ever opening the door thus creating a false god of their own conception--idolatry.
Yeah, we struggled with the assurance of salvation for years, like are we sure we're chosen? Why do I not love reading my Bible? Why do we have so much marital conflict? Am I acting fake? Why is Jesus so distant? Does he really love me? It was really scary when I started following the Bible Project and listening to Leighton Flowers and Mike Winger about the context of the old testament how defensive he got when I started reading it because he thought I was turning to the law for salvation. I was just trying to learn who God is, and am I sure I have the right God? Something is not matching up. Some of our biggest fights were over the Bible when I thought it would have been something we would have had in common.
I was almost one of them. I almost gave up on Christianity because of Calvinism. Thank God for working through people like LF to help me find another way to understand the Bible.
Laughing out loud 😂
@@GodlessGubment James, are you calvinist? What's your view?
What exactly is it about “the God of the Bible” that you don’t like?
@@latenitehvac868 Well, it does not exist. If it did, drowning the entire planet would seem to be a distasteful [to put it mildly] act.
@@GodlessGubment are you the moral arbiter of what is true and good?
I still have so much to learn... But I am slowly coming out of the calvinistic theology, thanks to a friend who started sharing these videos with me.
It's so heartbreaking to see anyone walk away from Jesus.
And even more heartbreaking to see if Calvinism is their reason for leaving Jesus.
I thank God for your heart for them every Leighton!
Thank you so much Leighton. What keeps coming to mind, as i listen to you, is Jesus in Matthew 24 (et al) saying, "Do *NOT* be deceived."
I just watched a RUclips video demanding people not see the "Jesus Revolution" film because it was not Reformed Theology and was dangerous. As a former Calvinist (left in 1971), it had me looking to take an extra blood pressure pill this morning.
This is the logical conclusion of Calvinism. Instead, leave Calvin and come to Christ. God loves us.
I've often said when facing similar questions about God being the author of evil, "God gets blamed for a lot of things that he didn't do."
Pastor Flowers, I first want to thank you for sharing your personal testimony as a former Calvinist, and for creating this channel.
I believe you have genuine hope and love for all people to be able to come into a Loving, True, and Salvific relationship with our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ in every video you create.
Years ago, I considered Calvinism after I was saved. I love the way they preach, right from scripture, line by line. But, unfortunately finding a non-Calvinistic or non-reformed church that has such good expository preaching is almost impossible these days.
I know I'm "Saved by Grace through Faith. And this is not of ourselves; it is the gift of God, not of works, so that no man may boast." (Ephesians 2:8-9)
I prayed to God daily to test and approve the claims of Calvinism as I researched it. Thankfully, the very first channel I found was yours, then followed by Mike Winger. I watched almost every video on your channel, some more that 2 or 3 times. Ultimately, in my personal opinion, God chose to lead me to your channel to help guide me in my walk. So I give Jesus Christ all my love, honor, glory, and worship and I still thank Him for brothers in Christ, like you!
Please don't ever give up my friend! Your teaching is changing minds and leading people to what I believe is the True Freedom Christ offers to all sinners who will humble themselves before God, accept that we are all sinners in need of a Savior, and accept His Free Gift, and be Truly Born Again!
I pray God will continue to bless people, through your ministry. Which I find to be a very kind and loving approach to this very difficult, and sometimes confusing topic.
I have several questions, but I think this post is already the length of a "Novella." So again I say thank you and I will continue to pray for you and your ministry, as I believe in this current "climate" in our country, people are too quick to judge what they don't or won't even try to understand.
Your Brother in Christ Jesus,
Daniel E. Harvey
God Bless You! 💕✝️💕🇺🇲
When I heard the words " Maybe I'm just not chosen" (minute 38), I was wrecked...... This hurts.
DW: That is a common burden all Calvinist pastors have to deal with. In Calvinism - it is historically called the "DREADED FALSE HOPE".
In Calvinism - we have a divine potter of Romans 9 who creates the MANY specifically as vessels of wrath fitted for destruction.
In Calvinism - a large percentage of the body of believers are specifically created as CHAFF.
Calvin's god gives the CHAFF believer a FALSE SENSE of salvation.
All of the promises within scripture are classified as the ENUNCIATED will of god - which in many cases is the exact opposite of the SECRET will of god.
So the promises within scripture to the believer - for any Calvinist - can function as divine condemnation for that Calvinist.
If he is created as CHAFF - then he will not be granted discernment about it.
So every Calvinist has a high probability of being created for eternal torment for his good pleasure.
The way most Calvinists deal with the emotional burden of that - is denial.
@@dw6528 People who are actually reformed don't have a problem with these things but those like you who have anti-calvinist derangement syndrome have problems with non-man centered religion.
@@innovationhq8230 Innovation: People who are actually reformed don't have a problem with these things
DW: That statement is simply magical thinking which is not unusual with Calvinists.
When I dialog with Calvinists and I quote John Calvin and other Reformed authors - it becomes obvious they do have problems - but they have been taught specific mechanisms to evade those problems.
The way most Calvinists deal with the issues that inherently come with Determinism and with "Good-Evil" DUALISM built into the theology - manifests predominantly with a number of strategies
1) Denial
2) Creating SEMANTIC FACADES of things which do not exist in the system.
3) Creating SEMANTIC MASKS to hide things which do exist in the system.
4) The creation of AD-HOC meanings and definitions for words and terms
5) Using Libertarian words to replace Deterministic words
to paint a FALSE appearance of Libertarian attributes within the system
6) A strategically equivocal language designed to mislead
7) A reliance upon lies of omission.
@@dw6528 Do you HEAR when Jesus speaks in Scriptures? Matthew 7:13
“Enter by the narrow gate. For the gate is wide and the way is easy that leads to destruction, and those who enter by it are many. 14For the gate is narrow and the way is hard that leads to life, and those who find it are few." And again Jesus says, Matthew 7:21 “Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but the one who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22 On that day many will say to me, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and cast out demons in your name, and do many mighty works in your name?’ 23 And then will I declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from me, you workers of lawlessness.’
Do you want to listen to Jesus or your own ideas????/ Jesus spoke here in PLAIN language, there will be MANY, yes MANY deceived thinking they are saved, and that say they know the Lord when in fact they are not saved. This is straight from the mouth of Jesus, not a calvinist invention.
@@christianmama2441 DW: It is not what I want that you are taking issue with here.
It is the foundational core of Calvinism (aka the doctrine of decrees) which only exists within Calvinism - that you are taking issue with.
Here is how it works:
1) Calvinism's doctrine of decrees:
John Calvin
-quote
The creatures…are so governed by the secret counsel of God, that *NOTHING HAPPENS* but what he has knowingly and willingly decreed. (Institutes 1. 16. 3)
2) Thus in Calvinism - for any specific individual to be within the population of the MANY - it must be knowingly and willingly decreed - that that specific individual be within the population of the MANY.
3) Which Calvin concludes as follows:
John Calvin
-quote
Some are pre-ordained to eternal life, others to eternal damnation, and accordingly as *EACH HAS BEEN CREATED* for one of these ends, we [Calvinists] say he has been predestined to life or death.(Institutes 3.21.5)
4) Thus Calvinism has a divine potter of Romans 9 - who creates the MANY specifically for eternal torment in a lake of fire for his good pleasure.
John Calvin
-quote
by the eternal good pleasure of god, though the reasons do not appear, then they are *NOT FOUND* but *MADE* worthy of destruction. (Concerning the eternal predestination of god)
5) In Calvinism - per the doctrine of decrees - WHATSOEVER perceptions come to pass within the human brain - were established and FIXED by divine decree - and cannot be other than what they were decreed to be.
Thus - Whatsoever FALSE PERCEPTIONS of election/Salvation exist within the minds of Calvinists - exist because that is exactly what was decreed - and cannot be otherwise.
6) And that is why we have the component of the divine deception of the believer in Calvinism.
John Calvin
-quote
the Lord........ instills into their minds such *A SENSE* .....as can be felt *WITHOUT* the Spirit of adoption. (Institutes 1. 2. 11)
John Calvin
-quote
he *ILLUMINES ONLY FOR A TIME* to partake of it; then he....strikes them with even greater blindness (Institutes 3.24.8)
In Calvinism - the WHEAT are created to be WHEAT and the CHAFF are created to be CHAFF.
The CHAFF are designed so as to be indistinguishable from the WHEAT.
As Calvin says it -
-quote
A few grains of wheat covered by a multitude of chaff.(Institutes 4.1.4)
Each CHAFF believer - determined at the foundation of the world by a divine potter.
It's not just Calvinism that is doing this, there is so much within reformed theology that works this harm. I really wish Christians would see this.
I don't know if any of people in the video were really reformed.
Everyone needs to STOP and pray right now for these two young men. I am right now, join me.
So sad to leave a false systematic and still defend it as the real Christianity. Sadly, as grown men and teachers of the word they should know how to encourage themselves in the Word! These brothers who thought they knew so much are so weak.
Father, I just come to you now, and acknowledge who you are, a great and loving God. I want to lift up these two young men, Tyler and Derek to you right now, and I pray that you would open their eyes, and I pray that you would use them in a mighty way, I pray that you would speak to each of their hearts, and I pray that they would see who you really are. In the mighty name of Jesus, I pray. Amen.
Amen, dear Lord...Amen
Dr. Flowers this was one of your best programs yet. I have been brought into this "philosophy " of Calvinism just recently when out church just hired a new Pastor who is 5 pointer. I have had a discussion with him on this but I am not a theologian nor can I use the theological speak with him-I didn’t try to use a bunch a proof text for provisionism and when I mentioned this to him in our discussion he told me that he had heard them all anyway. He also told me that when he came to grips with this entire doctrine that he felt like he had been born again all over again. He also mentioned from the pulpit -he is going thru the book of Romans-that it humbled him so greatly when he realized that he was one of God’s chosen-. I have been in this church for 43 years-thru thick and thin-and there has been much and I have many wonderful friends but I can see how he is beginning to influence our Board. I know their are others who are are deep into Calvinism that are there but it has caused me to not want to go. I like him as a person-and the church seems to be growing but my heart hurts and I don’t know what to do-i feel like this is an issue that Satan might be using in these last days to just cause more strife in our churches.
Thank you for this post Patsy! I found it humerus that that pastor said "he had heard all of them" because that simply means his mind has become conditioned and he is not cognizant of its condition.
As you learn more about Calvinism - you will eventually come to recognize a pattern that is consistent with all Calvinists. He will affirm his doctrine within explicit language. But just wait and watch. If you watch of it - you are guaranteed to observe him denying his doctrine within inferential language. All Calvinists follow that pattern.
@@dw6528
Elaborate - layman's terms
@@Rightlydividing-wx1xb
You should have a seat n cut the biblical scholar man of God routine - it's impossible for heathen to believe in God his Son or written word - or to speak an iota of truth concerning them - example
(Revelation 13:10 kjv) he that leadeth into CAPTIVITY shall GO into CAPTIVITY he who KILLETH with the SWORD must be KILLED with the SWORD here is the patience and "Faith" of the "Saints"
☝️did caucasians take blacks captive and murder millions of them??
@@Rightlydividing-wx1xb DW: In Calvinism - whatsoever perceptions come to pass within the human mind - are established by divine decree - and not by the person.
For example - within the Calvinist fold - there are CHAFF believers.
CHAFF believers are given a FALSE PERCEPTION of salvation which the mind is not granted the ability to discern because doing so would countervail the decree
Similarly - when a Calvinist is faced with a TRUE/FALSE question - the perception within his mind concerning the answer to the question - is determined by divine decree.
If the decree is that his mind will perceive the answer as TRUE - then the option of his mind perceiving the answer as FALSE has been excluded by the decree.
FALSE perceptions exist within his mind by divine decree which his mind is not granted the ability to discern because doing so would countervail the decree.
Thus - the Calvinist mind is never granted the function of choosing between TRUE and FALSE on the matter of anything.
And since discernment requires choosing between TRUE and FALSE - it follows - the Calvinist mind is never granted the function of discerning TRUE from FALSE on the matter of anything.
@@habakkuk2510 DW Hello Habakkuk
There is a pattern that is well known concerning belief systems which are highly radical.
That pattern is called *AS-IF* thinking
Take for example - the man who believes in Solipsism.
What happens if during his intimate moments with his wife - he treats her as a figment of his imagination - which is what his belief system stipulates. Will there be consequences for him doing that?
What happens if he treats his boss or his supervisor as a figment of his imagination.
He knows there will be consequences which will be too much for him to bear.
So he goes about his office *AS-IF* his belief system is FALSE. He treats people *AS-IF* they are real.
Calvinism is similarly a radical belief system based on Determinism.
Sean Carroll (Theoretical physicist Determinist)
-quote
Every person in the world, no matter how anti-free-will they are, talks about people *AS-IF* they make decisions.
Stephen Hawking - Determinist
-quote
I have noticed even people who claim everything is predestined and that we can do nothing to change it look before they cross the street. (Black Holes, Baby Universes and Other Essays)
William Lane Craig
-quote
Nobody can live *AS-IF* all that he thinks and does is determined by causes outside of himself. Every determinist recognizes he has to act *AS-IF* he has option(S) to weigh, and can decide on what course of action to take….. (Determinism is unlivable)
John Calvin
-quote
“Hence as to future time, because the issue of all things is hidden from us, each ought to so to apply himself to his office, *AS-IF* nothing were determined about any part.” (Concerning the eternal predestination of god)
So you see - the Calvinist is forced to assert his doctrine as TRUE - while treating his doctrine *AS-IF* it is FALSE in order to retain a sense of human normalcy - and to be congruent with scripture.
That is why Calvinist language is a language of DOUBLE-SPEAK
I am a former Calvinist, yet I grieve for these two men. They are asking the hard questions of the Christian faith, and their theological framework. This is happening to young Christians more often these days.
I think they are asking the "hard" questions of Calvinism, there are good answers outside of Calvinism. Just drop the determinism it all starts to come together. So thankful for Leighton!
Since you left how do you explain the golden chain in a non Calvinistic way?
Romans 8:29-30
[29] For those whom he foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, in order that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. [30] And those whom he predestined he also called, and those whom he called he also justified, and those whom he justified he also glorified.
@Shepherd Ministry That's a good question. Leighton's book talks about this and so did BTF let me see what I can find on it
@@ShepherdMinistry Hi Shepherd, I said I would try to answer thinking perhaps you and/or @Matthew J may have never heard the non-Calvinist interpretation of the passage.
In doing some research, I saw that you had already commented under another of Dr Flowers videos called.
FOREKNOWN? Revisiting Romans 8:29-30
So, I would think you might already know how a Provisionist would interpret the passage. So why did you ask about it here? Maybe you forgot about that other video? 🤔
For me, and other non-Calvinists interpret Romans 8:28-30 in it's context within the full chapter of Romans chapter 8, and in then in the greater context of the entire Bible and in concert with God's character of Love, because we know God is love.
@@Apollos2.2 Hey brother, I was wondering what his interpretation is. If it’s the same as Dr Flowers that means he believes those that are foreknown are saints from the past. Is this what you hold to?
It's completely obvious that calvinism is what drove these apostates away from GOD . THE GOD that they never knew . They sit there and judge THE GOD they never knew Thank you Leighton, GOD bless you brother.
💯
Spiritual truth is foolishness to those perishing.
1 Corinthians 2:14
“But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.”
@innovation HQ that's correct my friend . These men accepted a doctrine instead of THE SAVIOR .
GOD bless you
I accepted Jesus into my life 70yrs ago when I attended a Pentecostal church. Fortunately God protected me from false doctrines which are discrediting Him and confusing people. I am so tired of all the highly educated individuals who are teaching these doctrines and not really following the simplicity of the Gospel. I could never be a Calvin's and for me it doesn't matter whether God chose me or predestined me to follow Him, I will follow Him even if He doesn't want me. It's not about me but rather what He wants and if He would decide to give others the privilege of being in His presence then so be it. He's the alpha and omega and I love Him regardless. All Glory to Him.
Leighton, thank you so much for this video & all the other videos that you've made. My heart breaks for these people as well. God bless you my brother in Christ. God provides FOR ALL!!!
As a Catholic I been watching your videos for years. Very nice video! God bless
Catholic here too - and I respect Dr. Flowers’ opinions.
Leave Rome. Read Hebrews 10
@albusai: Why would reading Hebrews 10 make me leave the only Church founded by Our Lord?
The language from Hebrews 10 is found in the Liturgy of the Eucharist. Come to Mass and see.
true ministry IS NOT SYSTEMATIC!!! GBY. 2Cor.13.14
@@adrianvarela8890 what is it exactly?
So heart breaking, I found this channel through trying to help some family deconstruct in a healthy way, I hadn't really pegged it on the Reformed doctrine but it's the root of this so we are walking along side them to help them deconstruct the religiosity without throwing Christ out so we can walk with them in rebuilding on Christ the Foundation not Reformed the Foundation!!
Bless you, bless you, bless you! I rejoice that this special person has you in their life because so many coming out of reformed theology (like these two brothers belief that Calvinism is the only one that is Christian) leave their faith...same thing for those coming out of Christian cults. I thank you for your love to help. God bless you!
Preach it🔥🔥🔥🙏🙏🙏
May God bless you, so many are disillusioned from incorrect doctrine and throw out true religion, which is faith in Christ.
Powerful Leighton. Truly gets to the heart of the issue. Thank you
This breaks my heart. We are friends with a couple who married young. Both from Christian homes. But he had become a pushy (cage stage) Calvinist. Eventually she said she wasn’t a Christian anymore. She couldn’t believe in a God portrayed in that manner. It’s been 4 years, but thankfully, these last 2 years she started reading the Bible again for herself and examining her faith and the gospel. I see God slowly bringing her back in. And her husband, having gone through that pain of losing his wife, in a sense, and not knowing what to do, has re-examined his approach. I think seeing that change has helped her and seeing from others that Calvinism isn’t the only way. But it was hard seeing him in that state and not knowing what was going to happen. And seeing this beautiful girl who truly loved the Lord walk away. I pray for healing and complete restoration.
So many great ideas here. Very thankful for your ministry!
After watching this video, I’ve decided I need to increase my monthly giving to Soteriology 101.
I felt your heart, Leighton.
Sojourner, your money would be far better spent on widows and orphans, not on theological debates that actually are not something that needs financing, what now, they can't talk for free? James 1:27 Religion that is pure and undefiled before God the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained from the world.
I was very blessed by this discussion, Dr. Flowers. Thank you.
Beautiful. I appreciate your heart Dr. Flowers. Thank you for loving the Lord.
Amen! Only Christian not Calvinist. Not anyone’s name but Jesus
amen brother Franck!!! 2Tim. 4.22
Amen!
Dr. Flowers, I am grateful for your heartfelt work and steadfast endeavors. Your channel is so helpful, thank you!
These Guys have walked away from a God that is opposite in character to the God of the scriptures.
And even in their testimony of deconstruction these poor deceived souls are still locked into the very systematic that has kept them from the truth of who the loving living God is and how much He actually loves them ,
“ Calvinism “ is a curse. “ Calvinism “ is a cult.
Unfortunately I agree with you
Very true!
Absolutely AMEN! I totally agree, Reformed theology IS as Cultic as the Jehovah's Witnesses The seventh day Adventists and the Mormons! I believe that Roman cathology IS A Religious Cult as well! And the one thing that they ALL seem to have in common is a works-based message of salvation! The leaven of the Pharisees! God bless you brother!
Please do not stop teaching and displaying the love and grace and good news of the Gospel of our LORD and saviour. Thank you Leighton. We look to YOU our eternal GOD and we ask to bring your disillusioned people home. Thank YOU for showing YOUR love in Christ Jesus and for YOUR long suffering heart.
I cried with you Leighton as I heard your heart-felt concern for the damaging effects that Calvinism has on those who believe they're following the true and genuine gospel of Jesus Christ.
I join with you in praying for those who are rejecting this false gospel that they think IS the gospel of Jesus Christ, that they will hear the truth and continue in His word that sets them free!
May they come to believe what Jesus meant when he said in Matthew 11:28-30.
“Come to Me, all who are weary and heavy-laden, and I will give you rest. Take My yoke upon you and learn from Me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and YOU WILL FIND REST FOR YOUR SOULS. For My yoke is easy and My burden is light.”
God bless you for having such a loving and caring heart for the lost!
Numbers 6:24-26
The LORD bless you, and keep you;
The LORD make His face shine on you,
And be gracious to you;
The LORD lift up His countenance on you,
And give you peace.’
Laina Reeves, I'm a calvinist and believe Jesus died for MY sins and rose again and has forgiven me of all sins. I am saved by His mercy, He gifted me faith in Him to believe He truly is God in human flesh and blood who died for me and rose again. On what basis does my understanding of the gospel is false?
I notice a lot of emphasis placed on the 'my'.
@@dankmartin6510 Plenty of people sure would think Jesus died for the sins of others but they are not big enough of sinner for Christ to need to die for them. It has to be personal type of faith in Jesus' atonement.
@@christianmama2441 The Atoning power of Christ's shed Blood is unlimited and unbound - beware how close you are to denying that by subtracting from its power.
@@dankmartin6510 In John 17:6 “I have manifested your name to the people whom you gave me out of the world. Yours they were, and you gave them to me, and they have kept your word. ".....This is where the Father gave the Son a set number of people, the elect before the foundation of the world....these are not a nebulous mass of people but individuals ordained for salvation. Also, please notice that Jesus is not even praying for those who are not part of this group of the elect people of God....John17:9 "I am praying for them. I am not praying for the world but for those whom you have given me, for they are yours."......If Jesus is not even willing to pray for those who do not receive salvation, why would He die for them? Am I missing something here? Also, plenty of Bible verses say He gave Himself up for His church so that she becomes spotless and blameless....well if He died for the ones going to hell then He did not die for them to be spotless and blameless and has failed in his mission according to your theology....it makes absolutely no sense to say He died in vain for the goats. He died for His sheep, to save them not to give them a potential for salvation, but to actually save them entirely, it never says He died for the goats.
Guys, if you are struggling with Jesus, please keep going. Do not give up, remember your first love and fellowship with him. Thanks Leighton for talking to this.
Calvinism is nothing like Jesus the Messiah.
amen Grant
This portion from Derek Webb from the American Gospel was exactly the start of what caused me to question Calvinism.
This is heartbreaking! Thank you so much for doing this. This is really needed. I am praying for all calvanists.
Thank you for this great presentation. I had some "fights" with friends who have a Calvinistic view of God/salvation. I did not possess all the theological arguments presented in this video, but based on my Bible reading and my personal knowledge of God (that He is truly loving and wants anyone to be saved, and paid the price for all to be saved, not only for the "elected"), I refused to embrace the Calvinistic view. I simply knew that if God is love and wants us to love Him (and not just obey Him by duty), then it has to be free will, because love turns on free will.
My own life experience before coming to know Christ (I was an atheist, then a yoga practitioner) convinced me that free will is real and I cannot escape it, nor the moral responsibility attached to it. My main question back then when I was an atheist was: "if evolution explains everything and life ends at death, then why do I have free will ?" I just kept asking questions like that until I've heard the gospel. Then everything started to make sense.
This is a great ministry. God bless you and help you continue to lovingly present and defend the real character of God. He really deserves all the glory for who He is and what He has done for our salvation.
Man this video is HEARTBREAKING. Holy Spirit please do a work in their hearts. Calvinism is a downright logically fallacious doctrine. Our God is the foundation for logic. He does not contradict himself. This doctrine has crushed so many spirits including my own. Thank you for these videos! I pray that many Calvinists will see your work and be confronted and convicted. This has gone on too long.
So loving, so kind. I'm happy to join you in your prayers for these people! Thank you for sharing your thoughts! God Bless You! 💕✝️💕🇺🇲
Powerful ! Blessings from Finland.
Finland is so beautiful. A big hug from Brazil.
@@henriquegarcia6734 Brazil is in chaose
Hi Finn Friend.
@@jasonbourne5142 you mean "South America" but I understand how you fould get them mixed up
@@josephbrandenburg4373
Is Hitler damned to hell??
Powerful message, Brother! Thank you!!
Hi, I have been on calvinistic ground for years now. It was messy when I first knew calvinism, I was arrogant and my heart was not right. your view has put balance on my thoughts on this issue. I like your message as it broadens my understanding of God in relation to the faith He has given us all. Thank you brother.
Thankye Leighton for all you do!
Ive learned so much
Calvinism/Lordship Salvation caused me to doubt my salvation and the goodness of God
Andy - Denver North Carolina
good to hear!
Brian up in Boone NC😇
Your observation on what precedes deconversion and how to get real joy is perfectly applicable on me at least. Lord bless you. You are a wise man, sir.
I enjoy all of your videos, Leighton but this one just hit different. Thank you!
Let's keep praying for those who are struggling with their faith and ask God to use us to help them.
😊 I'm with you! God Bless You! 💕✝️💕🇺🇲
"Who are you, oh man?" was not the response to someone trying to ask God a question. Daniel, Mary and other OT figures all asked God or His messengers questions and weren't chastised.
"Who are you, oh man?" was the response to those asking God questions INSINCERELY or with scoffing. This is the view of Irenaeus, John Chrysostom, and several other thinkers in the early church.
You can have honest and sincere questions. Bringing those to God is something that pleases Him. It's all a part of what it means to have faith.
I want to thank you for your ministry. Went with some fellow believers to a church to support a new minister. The church was reformed. Needless to say I prayed (silently) that God would open their eyes to his love and provision for all people as the scripture clearly states. In all this I just ask that you pray for my fellow believers and I that we can be discerning and show love as christ asked us too.
Mr. Flowers, I just want to say watching your videos give me so much hope and peace. As I lead things I am so much more confident knowing that what Christ revealed to me is being solidified through you. I really respect and I look up to you dearly. Your heart is seen and heard. May God bless you
I've always wondered if calvinism drove John Piper's son into what he is today.
Me too:/
It absolutely did
@@shiniquajones2812
What's incorrect about the Calvinist doctrine??
@@habakkuk2510 Everything. Jesus died for all humankind, not just for the chosen ones. But God, who lives outside of time and space, knows from the beginning who will accept the salvation through his son and who won't, so that's why he can speak of 'predestination'. But the Bible clearly states that God wants to save EVERYBODY: "God wants everyone to be saved and to fully understand the truth. There is only one God, and there is only one way that people can reach God. That way is through Christ Jesus, who as a man gave himself to pay for everyone to be free. This is the message that was given to us at just the right time." 1 Timothy 2: 4-6
@@ursulak.
PAUL
(Romans 9:3-5) For I could wish that myself were accursed from Christ for MY BRETHREN, my kinsmen according to the "FLESH" who are ISRAELITES; to whom pertaineth the ADOPTION, and the GLORY, and the "COVENANTS" and the giving of the LAW, and the service of God, and the "PROMISES" whose are the fathers, and of WHOM AS CONCERNING THE "FLESH" CHRIST CAME
Always giving an example of refined Christian character. I loved the idea of the reformed, to keep reforming the church but one of the main problems which is the Tulip systematic was not filtered through Scripture.
History will remember Mr. Flowers and the Provisionists.
We should be trying to be the Christians of the Bible, not making it better through human philosophy --it's literally the reason it keeps going off the rails and a huge move of the Holy Spirit has to try to put it back on track.
DW: Very nice post! Consider however - the TULIP was produced about 100 years after Calvin's institutes and at that time Calvin was long gone.
At that time - the only primary writings about doctrine were within writings made by Calvin himself.
At that time the Bible was more readily available to the common people and they had the opportunity to compare scripture to John Calvin's writing - in which he did not flinch at painting a picture of divine malevolence for mankind.
It would be understandable for reformed thinkers at that time to want to distance Calvinism from Calvin's writings because of the IN YOUR FACE representations of divine malevolence within Calvin's writings.
So consider the possibility that the TULIP which was published in the form of a marketing booklet - was created as a strategy to hide DARK aspects of the doctrine which Calvin refused to hide.
When you examine the TULIP - what you will find is - the doctrine of decrees is totally absent from it.
The TULIP was actually created to hide the underlying doctrine - and to make Calvinism appear to be a more benevolent belief system than it really is.
Blessings!
@@thomasdaniel22 DW: Actually - Provisionism simply follows the concept of divine provision. And the concept of divine provision is not a novelty to any Bible reader.
However - using the concept of divine provision as a LABEL for a theological position is certainly new.
Calvinism - for example - is also a LABEL.
But the Calvinist is certainly not going to say the concepts which define Calvinism are a novelty which appears in the 1500's
The foundational core - of Calvinism - is EXHAUSTIVE DIVINE DETERMINISM (EDD) as enunciated within the doctrine of decrees.
Calvinists will insist the doctrine of decrees is *INFERRED* or *ASSUMED* within the text of scripture - and is therefore not a novelty.
The concept of Divine Provision is just as easily construed.
@Thomas Daniel so was deterministic Agustanian Soteriology when it was introduced to the church through Augustin who was a Manachean Gnostic before becoming a Christian and brought that doctrine with him, the only difference is that provisionism is going back to the Scriptures.
@Tanner Francisco we are Christians of the Bible but we need systematic Theology in order to understand certain topics in Scripture. You can't just say I believe the Bible, and when ask what you believe about certain passages you will use systematic Theology to show what you believe, that is what provisionism is.
"He's really hard to love and it's really hard to feel that you are loved." Bingo 💯% that's how I felt for 11 years as a Calvinist.
Thank you Dr Flowers… I’m thankful God put this on your heart to continue to explain to others. I have a friend who believes like a calvinist but she would never call herself a Calvinist. It’s hard to show her these videos because I think she’d be offended right off the bat being labeled like that. She just doesn’t realize that she’s in this belief system. It’s tricky but I’m hoping I can reach her sharing one of your videos using a disclaimer that we need to remove the labels and just listen to the explanations. My pastor is also in the same boat, believes in election unto salvation but would never call himself a calvinist. It’s a strange situation.
I like this video and it gave me a better understanding as to why Calvinism comes under such scrutiny. I am a believer and follow er of Christ, but I only now encountering these different theological positions as I pursue and study the scriptures. I am glad for this, because I believe I can adopt an objective view of the commentaries without trying to defend a particular doctrinal stance over another. I am able to pick "good" from "bad", agree or disagree, change my view etc etc by examining the scriptures through a "neutral" lens. Of course I have biases, as we all do, but I'm not beholden to One particular viewpoint.
That said, I just wanted to add to your comments regarding deconversion and the connection made to moral failings. While I can agree with you that it may be a root cause. You neglect to consider the converse situation, that is a believer may be morally upstanding and diligent in the spiritual discipline, but their circumstances fail to line up with their beliefs and so they question and change their beliefs (deconvert). Both sides presents the same challenge: How do I believe this God (YHWH) when what I'm taught to believe does not line up with the scriptures actually present. In this I see God's sovereignty, He uses our circumstances to reveal Himself regardless of the doctrinal system we can come up with to explain who this God is and what we should believe about Him. Prov 25: It is the Glory of God to conceal a thing, and it is the HONOUR of kings to search them out.
It's a shame that determinism is ingrained so much in these "de-converts", that they will literally stop believing in God........ BUT still hold onto the determinism, even after they've lost their faith.
It's a shame that "belief in determinism" is greater than their "belief in YHWH".
Perfect example of what determinism does to somebody, look at John Piper's kid.
I was a former unwilling Calvanist for 30 years. This doctine lead to trauma in my life. I suffered serious consequences from this belief. Years later, and here I am, a non-Calvanist who has faith, hope, and love again-Be patient with yourself as you find your way out. ❤God loves you and the whole wide 🌐. He is quick to forgive.
All I would like to say is Thank you to you dr. Flowers and Praise the Lord for being so gracious to me and opened my eyes last year for the truth… it took long time to be able take “Calvinistic” lenses out and once again read the Bible with free view of the scripture. I need to confess that at the beginning I was against everything I heard from you dr. Flowers, I watched your debates with dr. White and I couldn’t see you winning the arguments but… dr White’s arrogance was enough disgusting for me that it made me think, reflect and I prayed for months that my eyes will be open for HIS truth.
Thank you and Shalom
I graduated from Calvinism to Evangelical Universalism last year after a long hard look at my life and all my pillars of belief. I can breath again. God is Good and Victorious. Spread the News. We have a Home and someday we all we be there together, all our tears wiped away.
Interesting.
I found Robin Parry's book a good read. But in the end I remained unconvinced.
Not that he didn't have some good arguments.
There are several scriptures in the Pauline corpus that lean towards universalism. That's where Parry was the most convincing.
But his argumentation from Revelation was not. I felt he was grasping at straws.
Although I would love to be a universalist (who wouldn't!), I'm not convinced the scriptures allow for it.
Parry's fault is that he's too philosophical and speculative with his reading of the biblical texts. That was also Origen's weakness.
So, in the end, I still believe Jesus and the biblical authors teach there is a hell, even if I don't have it fully worked out.
Made me cry.
Beautifully explained and based on Christianity, not an off shoot that misinterprets the Word of God. Thank you.
"How God drownded all those people"
Brother Flowers is such a blessing! He's your everyday man capable of crushing the hyper educated snobbery of modern scholars with as much eloquence as a jake brake down a mountain road.
Brothers and sisters pray for me to find another church . Not Calvinistic and GOD bless you brother DR Leighton Flowers .
where do you live? Maybe I can help. GBY.
@@adrianvarela8890 am in rwanda
Excellent. Thank you.
I thank God for you Dr Flowers. You are a gift to true Christianity, a breath of fresh air. You are leading many to see God rightly and expose faulty nonsensical teaching - Calvinism. I appreciate that you do this with love and grace yet don’t back down or compromise your position.
It’s impossible to argue with your position - because it’s true, logical, and Christ centered. Many will be in glory because of your work!
Calvinism is the subtle and twisted form of works based salvation...but without the fraudulent comforting rituals. Reformed theology runs into the same ol' temptation...knowing all that God knows. Listening to Tyler & Derek, it just oozes out of them. Pray for them.
Gross slander.
Anthony M. calvinism is the opposite of works based salvation. In fact, 100% of salvation in calvinism is monergistic, God does it, not humans. It appears you don't know calvinist theology.
@@christianmama2441 lol. Study up on lordship salvation and then comment. Thanks.
@@anthonym.7653 I'm a calvinist so let me explain how a calvinist views salvation. First of all, mankind is born in total inability to please God, born corrupted by sin and without the ability to even choose the things of God. On the basis of Christ's sacrifice on the cross and resurrection, God gives spiritual birth to whomever He chooses to, this is called divine election. So an unbeliever finds himself hearing the gospel and believing, the only reason he can even hear and believe it is because God gave them spiritual birth (the spiritually dead cannot hear nor believe the gospel, they don't have that ability). So then they believe and choose Jesus, but lets remember the order, first God gives them spiritual birth, then they hear and believe. Spiritual birth is 100% the work of God, it is God giving you a new heart that loves God and others, your original heart from birth is corrupted by sin and incapable of doing anything holy. Ezekiel has the best description of spiritual birth in the Old Testament, Ezekiel 36: 26 "And I will give you a new heart, and a new spirit I will put within you. And I will remove the heart of stone from your flesh and give you a heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes and be careful to obey my rules."
So, in conclusion, you don't choose Jesus, He chooses you first, then you can say you choose Him, but the only reason you do is because you're among the elect and He gave you spiritual birth. Salvation, faith in Jesus, even repentance, all these are GIFTS from God adn they don't come from your sin nature (the flesh). I hope this helps. No you cannot loose your salvation because it does not depend on you to begin with, it is Jesus who saves you and keeps you in the faith gifted to you. Yes, saved ones will do good works naturally out of the new heart they received...just like dogs bark and cats meaw, children of God do good works, its natural to them.
@@innovationhq8230 I'm calvinist, I just cannot believe the misinformation about calvinism out there....to call calvinism works based salvation is simply monstrous, it is the only monergistic of the soteriologies out there, period.
Tyler's God seems to be determinism. ☹️ Sad to see him leave the faith before he leaves determinism. I'd rather him be a wrong calvinist than a reprobate.
Excellent, brother. Thank you.
Leighton, you have such a heart for others and it is so so evident, especially in this video. I thank God for you so much
Lord, have mercy on Tyler. ☦
So a couple of Calvinists come to see Calvinism the way that most Christians in the world see it, and instead of having the humility to admit that maybe they were wrong about their interpretation of Scripture, they're adamant that they are right, and that therefore God must be evil, and/or Christianity must be false.
Meanwhile, a great many other Calvinists will continue to boast* of how they are the humble ones, and that those who believe that God loves everyone, and sent His Son to die for all of mankind, are man-centered and full of pride.
*Admittedly not _all_ Calvinists do this, but the vast majority I have encountered/engaged with have this kind of an attitude.
Thank Goodness, thank God this is happening!
This breaks my heart I’m going to pray for them
Calvinism drives people to atheism. Sad thing is they actually believe there's a better answer.
Amen! Also many atheists can adopt quickly the god of calvinism. Very short step either way .
And they lead others down the same dark path they’re on.
I don't see how Webb and other de-converts are not still Calvinist. Webb certainly still affirms Calvinism.
Thank you, Dr. Flowers, for the simple idea that we should not change our beliefs to fit our behavior, but our behaviors to fit our beliefs.
When the last nail is buried in the coffin of Calvinism,then that will be a Glorious day indeed! Why can these people NOT Love and Embrace the FREEDOM! That IS Found in the TRUE Gospel of Christ Jesus! God bless you brother and thank you for ALL that YOU have contributed in the Fight for the TRUTH of the Gospel of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ!
Amen.
amen stephen!
I don’t mean to be mean, but I think the pride & arrogance of many Calvinists borders on the demonic on SOME, not all of these guys! Pride is a brutal thing that goes before the fall.
DW: The problem with that pride is how it destroys the person who is seduced into it. We need to have compassion on Calvinists - and be praying the Lord deliver them from their ensarement.
I keep wondering how did we get to this point where Calvinistic reformed theology has become the face of evanghelical churches in USA?
How did we manage to get to this point?
As a protestant I hate how the catholic and orthodox churches deviated from the New Testament teachings, but how come the evanghelical churches get down the Calvinistic path?
Cause they all add to the gospel. That's why I'm confessional Lutheran, Sola.scriptura
That’s the question I have been asking! How did the evangelical church adopt Calvinism?
It seems to me it hooks people in with the notion that one is always experiencing God's thoughts.
I think ultimately Calvinism resurged into the vacuum left by non-Calvinist churches getting hung up on "church growth" and cash flow. Calvinists have also been very savvy in flooding the internet and in promoting Crossway for example (which does put out some very good resources, btw) and the ESV translation (which isn't my favorite, but is a very good literalized and de-liberaled version of the RSV). It's an unusual Reformed pastor who doesn't use the ESV.
Call it getting more in tune with the Gospel. Unless you deny God's absolute sovereignty, eventually you'll see the truth that "Calvinism" is simply the Bible.
Hello Dr. Flowers! I think you mentioned something about preaching out of the book of James in the video. Is there anywhere I could listen to that online? James is one of my favorite books and am wanting to get a deeper understanding of it. Thank you brother for all the time you spend making this content and the grace you display to others!
This is so incredibly heartbreaking. When you look at every word of the Bible through the final sacrifice by Jesus on the cross. You know he loves you so much you fall to your knees with overwhelming love.
Disclaimer: Tyler if you are reading this, I am not intending to unfairly criticize you, this is an honest opinion I hold, and I hope the best for you!
Having watched many of Tyler's debates and discussions with non-Calvinists and atheists over the years, one thing that was always very off-putting was the ever-increasing lack of humility in his discussions. Every claim he ever makes (still does as seen in this video) is so matter of fact and overly confident, it is like he was trying to also convince himself the whole time, overcompensating as they call it. I never took him to be an honest or fair interlocutor. His heart always seemed to lie merely in the polemics and debate culture in general. He never came off as a person genuinely interested in defending Christ or bringing people to know Him. I understand that psychologizing people can be a fool's errand and I acknowledge these are my own personal takeaways and should be taken with a grain of salt. If I am wrong, I apologize to Tyler for wrongly criticizing him. If I am right, I hope Tyler would thoughtfully and humbly consider this and perhaps consider if he fell away as a result of making an idol out of debating and his own intellectual prowess. Or even challenge himself to see whether he was ever a Christian at all and rather just liked the debate culture and found apologetics as a good avenue to do so. If either of those is even possible, I would challenge Tyler to seek Christ in a more holistic and organic way, laying aside much of what he thinks he knows. To others, CS Lewis talked about the dangers of apologetics, and I think rightfully so. Maybe some are more cut out for it than others but from my personal experience, I've not seen apologetics bear much fruit in my own life nor in those I was trying to reach. Oftentimes, during self-reflection, I realized my motivation for apologetics was more driven by my flesh than it was by the Spirit. I'm not saying this will be true for everyone, rather it is simply just something I would caution anyone heavily into apologetics to consider. This can be true for theology nerds as well. Make sure the motivation for what you are doing is to honor Christ.
Amen my Brother such a great insight the Holy Spirit has given you, God Bless my friend!