Apologia Studios on Romans 9 | Leighton Flowers | Jeff Durbin | Calvinism
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- Опубликовано: 8 янв 2024
- Dr. Leighton Flowers continues his response to Jeff Durbin of Apologia Studios as they walk through Romans 9 from their Calvinistic perspective. JOIN US LIVE!
This is the video we will be discussing: • Defending Calvinism: U...
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#LeightonFlowers #Calvinism #apologiastudios #JeffDurbin
Hey Leighton, I'm one of those people from Apologia that have had the blinders lifted by listening to your broadcast!! Thanks so much for properly explaining Romans 9 and lots of other points made by Calvinist's. I am learning sooooo much! Keep sharing
Hey Leighton, I am new to reformed theology. Whether I agree with you or not I really do appreciate your efforts and passion to find and bring truth of what the scriptures teach. I watch you often and I often go back and study to see where you are coming from. I am young in my faith but I am encouraged to see others passionate to understand and find out what God truly teaches. I love you brother and I hope you have a blessed day.
Keep seeking truth brother. Never land in a single camp as if it's the sole truth, even if that camp ends up being provisionism. I have found that there de bits of truth you gleen from all of these different systematics
We thank you for listening to what we, noncalvinists think the Bible is saying. Welcome to the Kingdom of God and the Family of God! Blessed 2024
Brother, I don't know who you are, but this is well said. Being able to study, learn, and understand those who believe in a different philosophy of theology makes you a better student of the word. It's easy to only read and study those you agree with. But to study those you disagree with makes you a more well rounded and mature Christian. Keep seeking truth and you will find, and always stay humble (as you've done), so the Lord will continue to teach you (Ps. 25:8-9). Blessings Brother!
Run from TULIP my brother! 🙏🙏🙏
I am a compatiblist and in the Reformed camp. I think that Leighton loves the Lord and is trying hard. We just see this differently. These are secondary issues which unfortunately sound like they are primary issues because there is much passion around them, brother. We all need to be united as Christians.
Calvinism= "When being better than everyone else isnt good enough" 😉
When being better without trying ; is …….more better
I have an idea for a debate/conversation. Leighton, you would state clearly (as you've done many times) your view of Calvinism, and have a Calvinist (Jeff Durbin would be a wonderful candidate) get to the clear points of contention of where he'd disagree on the doctrine / TULIP you've described. I feel like every Christian, regardless of which area we stand on any topic, should always appreciate getting to the real points of contention, so we could discuss and dig in as brethren and be good Bereans. God bless you guys
God, in eternity past, according to the counsel of His own will and for His glory, did decree that men would be able to make libertarian free choices. That explains why some believe and some do not.
🎯🎯
For the Calvinist: even if you don't think that quote above reflects what you consider reality; take the above quote and ask self, "Is God ABLE to do this?" Curious if question could be answered with simple yay or nay.
Well said 😊
So did He determine many to choose to reject Him and go to hell? Aren't you just shifting the goal posts with high end, academic gobbledygook?
Thank you, Leighton! As you have noted, Calvinism tends to rise and die off in a cyclic fashion. It seems to me that this latest rise in Calvinist was and is fueled by the availability of internet resources. I believe that the resources which you and others are producing will speed its demise, perhaps never to rise again.
Yeah nah the truth will always prevail🙄
I afraid it will rise again as there seem to be a element that appeals to the flesh have you noticed there's nearly always a element of arrogance with calvanists ?
@@Vae07 funny how the truth took only 1,500 years to materialize.
@@Vae07
Another single celled Aussie?
Yes, predestined to die off. But, to be honest, the Calvinist churches are one of the few groups growing and planting out here in the UK.
Leighton, you have made a theology geek out of this 61 year old woman, and I love it! Love both of you guys, too!😻
The passionate monologue from Leighton on Romans 9 was🔥
The Calvinist rebuttal to expecting God to be fair by saying, "if God was fair, he'd send you directly to Hell," is so stupid and completely misses the point. By fair, I mean that I expect God to keep his word. I expect God to be consistent with his promises. Jesus said, "Come to me all who labor, and I will give you rest." When I come to Jesus for that rest, I expect the rest and salvation he promised. I don't expect him to shove me away and say, "That wasn't for you! I decreed before the foundation of the world that you were going to be damned to hell despite anything I may or may not have said. Tough luck!"
Bible: Humble yourself
Calvinism: If you think you humbled yourself, you're prideful.
Preposterous.
No. Calvinists say that if you think you chose God's free gift of salvation in spite of your own sinful and rebellious nature then you don't understand how dead in sin you actually were and how great God's grace actually is. You're missing out.
@@wesleydahar7797except the bible never describes our deadness as an inability to respond to the gospel.
The way Christ acted while he walked on the earth shows that men are able to respond to the universal drawing of Christ.
@@awesomefacepalm The total rebellion of man is found everywhere in scripture, but you just interpret incorrectly because of your presuppositions.
The call to repent and believe does not imply we are able to, only that it is offered. The means of grace and free will exist, but the total depravity of man requires regeneration by the Holy Spirit before we can respond. The Bible says that we are all born in sin and no one seeks after God, and we are dead in our sin so that we cannot even turn to accept the grace of God without His work in us first.
Genesis 6:5, Romans 3:10-19, Ephesians 2:1-3.
@@awesomefacepalm
"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God."
- Romans 8:7-8
John 6:44, 65
1 Corinthians 2:14
"who saved us and called us to a holy calling, not because of our works but because of his own purpose and grace, which he gave us in Christ Jesus before the ages began,"
- 2 Timothy 1:9-10
Ephesians 2:1-10
@@wesleydahar7797 I can say the same about you. The presuppositions you have makes you prooftext to prove your point.
If it is like you say, then Jesus acts very irrational in response to unbelief in the gospels.
God works in every man, Christ draws all men to him, not only a select few.
My question for a Calvinist is if you think God is sovereign, how sovereign do you think He is?? Is he sovereign enough to create a world, give a created being free will, make a provision of love and salvation for all mankind and STILL at the end of it all bring about HIS plan and maintain every iota of HIS eternal glory!!! Now that my friends is SOVEREIGN ❤
Well, I guess you have the sovereignty to redefine God's position then. I'm joking of course. God is completely Sovereign. I think we should follow Him & what He has spoken, instead of man-made doctrines that support the sovereign free will of man. Don't get me wrong. There are plenty of ways in which someone can use their human rationale and logic to argue for free will, such as how lovingly it sounds. One can even use a lot of Scripture out of its context to make a solid argument for it. But I just think it's better to let the Word speak for itself in its context, instead of injecting our presuppositional beliefs. Maybe that's just my humble opinion. Before I even knew there was this massive argument that both sides hold so strongly to, I honestly didn't know what to believe. I mean I was reading the Word, but was sometimes finding myself using my own logic (and thoughts I'd gathered from others whom I'd listed to) in order to express arguments that were consistent with free will supporters' teachings. However, when I started gaining curiosity as to whether some of my beliefs on this topic were truly biblical or were from human rationale, I dug deeper. I think Scripture is quite clear about it, but I think people have a desire to hold onto their traditional beliefs that they've picked up from their parents, pastors, and other elders, instead of just letting the Word speak.
@@letscleanhouse with all due respect, I am not claiming to know you either, but I've commonly seen that most cling to presuppositional beliefs that have been handed down to them, and they cling so strongly to them that they will even say well "I don't believe that," when you quote some Scripture and ensure the context is related to the discussion. Unfortunately, there are some who just don't believe the entire Word of God to be true, or will cherry pick a verse here and a verse here, pulling them right out of their context to use them to support an argument they are making. I am not even claiming that this is what you have done. I'm simply saying I have found more times than not that people have traditional views that aren't consistent with Scripture, but it's difficult for them to notice it. When I die and the LORD brings me home, I won't be able to take any credit for that at all. I won't even be able to say I'm so happy that I was smart enough to have made the right choice. I don't think God is dependent on me to carry out His will. He doesn't need my help to save me. But it sounds like you are saying that He wants to save you, but won't be able to do it unless He gets your assistance. Lastly, please don't get me wrong. I am not trying to say that I think I am any smarter than you. I am not saying that I am the one with the answers to all biblical questions. In fact, I know I need to spend more time in the Word. I am always in need of digging more into the Scriptures, reading it over and over. I think we all need that. Have a blessed day and weekend :)
@@josephmarr1664 I made a reply but I didn’t use wisdom. I’m sorry I really don’t have to defend my position and I’m by no means a theologian I just see it differently.
You can’t use scripture to claim man has free will. To do so would be a claim he is free from sin. There is nothing free, from impulse, from desire, from inclination, about man. Dead in sin, slave to sin, determined to be evil - claiming otherwise is worldly foolishness and self-deception/pride. Only God, giving us over to Christ, choosing us as His (as He chose the Israelites) saves us from the justice we deserve.
To Dixiekitchen: Yes yes yes! Very well put. I think Calvinist follow Calvin’s view of sovereignty. I believe you described His sovereignty as the Bible portray’s Him. I think you have to be taught to believe the Calvinist belief and told how to interpret certain scriptures to go along with their view of sovereignty because it is not biblical.
Great stuff as usual brothers Leighton and Warren 👍 God bless
You’re the best dr flowers! Wish I could have you as a teacher
Mr Flowers. I’m not a Calvinist, neither am I a theologian or scholar. I’m actually rather young in my faith, and I agree with you. I’ve always thought, when listening to Calvinists, that it would make no sense for our Lord God to say it’s not His desire that anyone should die, and yet He still would predestine a number to die that some may come to life… I firmly believe that for God to give us His first command of loving Him with our entire being, we are given the ability to give Him our all, our, sadly, reserve portions of ourselves from His love. We have a choice, and it’s that choice, that free will, that demonstrates our sincerity in our faith.
Yes, God wants all men to be saved first Timothy 2:4, second peter 3:9!
God, predestines groups or plurals only, never individuals. Ephesians 1 -2 points: “ us and we” are pre-destined never “you and I“! And 11 times in 11 verses from 3-14 you have to remain “in Christ“ (in him, in whom) to be predestined!
Romans 9:1-3 Paul is talking about the nation of Israel, all the way to the end of chapter 11 ! So, “Jacob, I loved, Esau I hated“ is genesis 25:23 “there are two nations in your womb“! It’s talking about ‘Nations,’ not individuals in the whole context of those three chapters! Stop taking it out of context, along with Ephesians 1!
Of course, we have the story of Jacob and Esau and how Esau despised his birthright !
So God truly does love all people, he truly did make hell for the devil and his angels just as Matthew 25:41 says !
Even the 42 youths, mauled by the 2 bears, was because they mocked Elijah‘s rapture, a.k.a. the resurrection , they were saying “go on up Baldy “ ; and ALL their prophets just recently Were killed by Elijah and they should’ve known to stop worshiping Baal! Bethel was the headquarters of Baal worship, where this took place! 490 priests got killed by Elijah, There was no Priests around,; should’ve been a gigantic clue.
So God never arbitrarily and haphazardly deals with any human being ! His love cannot be measured says Romans 8!
But if you’re a Calvinist, it’s “his love cannot be measured , (Wink, wink)“!
Come out of the false belief system of Calvinism ! Now you have no excuse because you cannot out argue this, let’s hear you try!
Read Matthew 25 the parable of the Calvinists, a.k.a. talents ! Where the guy buried his talent calling God,- somebody who doesn’t judge rightly & he was thrown into hell as a result! He had the wrong view of God, & So Will a Calvinist, they’ll have a callous view of God & The love of Christs sacrificial death on the cross!
You should do a video series called, "Guess the Calvinist." A show in which you feature a quote from an unknown Calvinist and talk about what's wrong with it. Wait until the end of the video to reveal who it is. If it's a live feed you might even take a vote. 🙂
That sounds fun!
Or maybe something for @IdolKiller 😆
That would be awesome! 👍
I don’t think that would be loving. That Chris dude from DefendingTheFaith does stuff like that and it’s very condescending
@@FirefighterAliveJC I think you're overreacting.
That’s a good idea!!!
Even God Mocks his enemies, psalm 2:4 Proverbs 27:5 “open rebuke is better than secret love!” So it’s better doing this than not doing anything at all!
Save using fear says the 23rd of Jude, first, Corinthians 9:21
These Calvinists need to be scared because they’re not going to heaven , They’re gonna end up in hell for promoting false doctrine just like the parable of the Calvinist/talents in Matthew 25 !
I have been listening to you Leighton for the past couple days, I really appreciate your knowledge on this topic.
As far as your style or preacher voice goes I have the same temperament I just wanted to share this proverb with you that tremendously helped me.
A soft answer breaketh bone.
For some reason a soft truth goes right into the ear and into the heart, where a louder tone is less effective. That being said I also think there are times to lift up our voices and spare not.
Gods blessings to you on this issue you have the truth.
Now at the 22:06 mark and he says, "it's like asking you why God created you," and he adds, "can you know why God created you?" Umm. Well, yes. I know because the Bible tells me that He created me for His Glory. Everything that was created was created for His Glory. That's why we were all created.
When the debate takes place, I predict that Leighton will seek the truth and James will seek to win. That seems to be a reliable pattern between them.
They both want truth and orthodoxy. None of them would expose themselves to so much slander and scoffing if they didn’t.
@@Migler1my post specifies the debate, not the body of their work.
@@AndrewKeifer I would assume my comment applies to both their work and their debate, whether I agree or disagree with any of them or not.
@@Migler1 that hasn't been my experience when watching White deal with Flowers points. What I see when I watch him engage with Flowers' points is that he's more interested in winning the audience than in getting at the truth. That's what I'm predicting will happen in the debate in March.
A person’s wisdom yields patience; it is to one’s glory to overlook an offense.
Blessings from Finland !
Hello neighbor! May God bless you as well!
@@tonn333 Got Harwood's systematic yet ? It's must have.
@@Yaas_ok123 just bought it.
I have witnessed this: A woman said, " I can enjoy sin to the maximum, my whole life, and if I was created a robot and it was determined by God that I was to be eternally damned, well, at least I enjoyed. But if I am a robot, and He determined me to be saved, well then I can still live a life of enjoying sin because He will save me anyway, and then I would have had the best of both robot lives!" This is what the doctrine of demons (Calvinism) produces!
I had a friend who was vacillating between Calvinism and Christianity. He had left our church for a number of months and was hanging out with his new Calvinist friends, but then came back to our church for a time because he was shocked when they opened their home Bible study by drinking beer. (Nothing like imbibing spirits to get in the spirit, you know 🤦♂️)
While he was back in our church, he outright confessed to the whole congregation that he had gone Calvinist because it gave him an excuse for his sin: if God had ordained it, who was he to resist God's will? He had realized it and ran from it for a time, but tragically, he went back to Calvinism afterward and into a downward spiral of resentment and bitterness. I'm still praying for him to get delivered from this wicked doctrine of demons!
I had a friend admit something which, apparently, caused me to have a scandalized look because he followed (shrugging shoulders, laughing) "hey, I'm depraved." My thought: Actually you're culpable.
@williammarinelli2363 You: "You're culpable"
Augustine and Calvin: "God ordained that you sin and you have no choice in the matter, and you're still culpable, even though you could not and can not do anything other than what God ordained"
My friend's experience is not nearly as scandalous as the doctrine that led him to do what he's doing. That's the point.
@@Drspeiser show your homie this: God wants all men to be saved first Timothy 2:4, second peter 3:9!
God, predestines groups or plurals only, never individuals. Ephesians 1 -2 points: “ us and we” are pre-destined never “you and I“! And 11 times in 11 verses from 3-14 you have to remain “in Christ“ (in him, in whom) to be predestined!
Romans 9:1-3 Paul is talking about the nation of Israel, all the way to the end of chapter 11 ! So, “Jacob, I loved, Esau I hated“ is genesis 25:23 “there are two nations in your womb“! It’s talking about ‘Nations,’ not individuals in the whole context of those three chapters! Stop taking it out of context, along with Ephesians 1!
Of course, we have the story of Jacob and Esau and how Esau despised his birthright !
So God truly does love all people, he truly did make hell for the devil and his angels just as Matthew 25:41 says !
Even the 42 youths, mauled by the 2 bears, was because they mocked Elijah‘s rapture, a.k.a. the resurrection , they were saying “go on up Baldy “ ; and ALL their prophets just recently Were killed by Elijah and they should’ve known to stop worshiping Baal! Bethel was the headquarters of Baal worship, where this took place! 490 priests got killed by Elijah, There was no Priests around,; should’ve been a gigantic clue.
So God never arbitrarily and haphazardly deals with any human being ! His love cannot be measured says Romans 8!
But if you’re a Calvinist, it’s “his love cannot be measured , (Wink, wink)“!
Come out of the false belief system of Calvinism ! Now you have no excuse because you cannot out argue this, let’s hear you try!
Read Matthew 25 the parable of the Calvinists, a.k.a. talents ! Where the guy buried his talent calling God,- somebody who doesn’t judge rightly & he was thrown into hell as a result! He had the wrong view of God, & So Will a Calvinist, they’ll have a callous view of God & The love of Christs sacrificial death on the cross!
Calvinism condemns that behavior. Don't judge good theology by bad application.
With all do respect to the great calvinist preacher John Piper in case if he couldn't guarantee whether his 'presently and still apostate son' has been securely elected by God since the beginning of the world , how could i be assured that my children , my family my church colleagues , and above of all myself are all elected ? not to mention Matt Slick's daughter who is still an apostate (Matt Slick is the head of CARM apologetic ministry who is highly CALVINISTIC in theology ) how could a calvinist pastor gives sincere exhortation that all or at least great number of his congregation have been securely elected , since election is a great mystery that will only be revealed at the after life ? Calvinism in the most honest description is 'faith in LUCK ' , if u hit the jackpot then lucky u but if not then 'bummer' !
He's not a great teacher. Great teachers teach the truth.
It’s strange that most of his kids are no longer “Christians “
@@samanthagraveswalters8443 He's not saved either.
I know about his son's very public criticism, but wasnt aware his daughter also rejects Christ. That is so sad😢
@@AnniEast I guess if you are raised in home that calls you a viper in diapers it makes sense they would reconvert
God bless you. I'm going to see this video because I can't when you are in live.
Thanks. I appreciate it and what you do.
*INDICATIONS OF INDOCTRINATION*
At minute 35:16 the Calvinist says "You're not listening to what I'm saying"
In a system of indoctrination - those who are indoctrinated must listen.
To not listen - is to not be indoctrinated
As a person is exposed to indoctrination over a prolonged period of time - that person will quite naturally equate the process to "listening"
Also - a mind exposed to indoctrination over a prolonged period of time - will become conditioned to easily accept CONTRADICTIONS without thinking - like a fish swallowing a worm.
If you are a RATIONAL thinking person - you do not blindly accept CONTRADICTIONS.
When that happens - the indoctrinated person interprets your NON-acceptance as "Not Listening"
So it makes perfect sense in this case - that the Calvinist here is frustrated insisting that someone is "Not listening"
He who does not blindly swallow the CONTRADICTIONS is not listening.
Made it to the 4:10 mark and I see the foundation for Leighton's argument is already flawed. Leading up to that, he said around the 2:10 mark that he sometimes asks Calvinists if they believe they're better than someone else because they believe in God. Well, anyone who knows what Calvinists believe would've expected Leighton to follow that up with that by saying, "and their response is that no, they don't think that makes them any better because it's not man who has decreed how one is predestined to be, but it is a Sovereign God to thank for such." However, Leighton didn't follow up that way at all. He instead begins to attack a position that Calvinists don't even take. I've yet to even make it to the 5 minute mark, but it's tough to watch an entire video and take it seriously when you see a person open by misrepresenting what the other party believes.
His rebuttal is against JW ans JD and not you. So he is talking about things that they have said in the past, claims they make. We all know by now that calvinist, like most other groups within Christianity, do not all think exactly the same. It would be impossible to address every single variation of Calvinism.
I would disagree. You would say that you’re not a better person because it is God that has changed you. However there has been a change, if you don’t need to be made into a better person then there is no need to have pre-faith regeneration.
The argument from the other side is that anyone can believe in Christ and then the Holy Spirit regenerates the believer enabling him to put to death the flesh and live to Christ.
@@barnabas857 But I don't know that I've ever met a single person who has put to death the flesh. I guess it just depends on exactly what you mean by that. Although there is definitely a change in a person once they've been saved, my opinion is that no such (saved) person is then any better than any other person who has yet to be saved, since everyone om this side of life has a sinful nature. Although I wouldn't want to even attempt to put any words into Dr. JW's mouth, as I'm certain I could never articulate a single theological thought any better than he can, I imagine he would agree with that. Again, he'd phrase it FAR better than I could, but I think you get what I'm trying to say.
Where can I find the main Calvinistic proof texts answered in a concise way by provision-ists?
Great conversation revealing JD & crew’s Calvinistic bias. They are so blinded by their systematic; it’s almost cult-like. With Warren, we should be praying for them.
I’m truly happy James White will debate Leighton Flowers again, and soon. As happy as that makes me, it brings me concern how an intelligent man such as James White either can not or will not understand the perspective of Leighton….
Too much to give up on.
He's made defending Calvinism a part of his identity, so he cannot give up on that.
@@awesomefacepalm You could turn that around on Leighton as well. I think their last debate was very good.
@@awesomefacepalm Besides, he believes that Calvinism is biblical, so why wouldn't he defend it?
@@wesleydahar7797 That's true. But in Leightons defence, he has changed his mind about Calvinism, so he doesn't have the same need to defend a particular doctrine.
Well we all defend our doctrines because we think they're biblical.
My point is, we should never make a particular doctrine part of our identity.
@@awesomefacepalm Christ is the word of God. Christ is my identity. The word of God is my identity.
The relationship you have with your creator is kind of a big deal. Meaning of life and all that.
Going through Roman’s 9 properly would be reading it in context from Roman’s 7-13 😅
Actually, you need to start with Romans 1, which starts the book off with an anti-Calvinist barrage. Then you need to read 2-7 as it is written and not assume Paul is using some grand literary device when he speaks in the present tense to I and YOU, but someone how is how not speaking to his audience and their current condition. Then you see that 2 is not about the depravity of man, but about professing Jewish believers who are trying to judge professing gentiles by the letter of the Law, while the gentiles have it written on their heart (that is the OT promise of salvation). Yes, Romans is a clear and exhaustive presentation of the gospel, but it is given in the framework of explain to Jewish believers why FAITH has always been the actual method of salvation, as opposed to the twisted system of self righteousness the Jews had turned the Law into.
I'm fairly certain that when the Calvinist says,"What made you Better".... they mean... "Were you more humble", "did you understand something others don't/can't", etc... (Not necessarily those exact questions, but something along those lines)
Meaning....something about you was "better" in the sense to be able to understand the truth, that someone else doesn't.
Leighton, have you ever read any of Matthew Bates' books? I would love to see you interview him. His teaching on faith as faithfulness or allegiance deftly cuts through the free will vs determinism debate.
In proverbs 9 we have Wisdom and the foolish women. Both sit in high places, both call out to whomsoever. One leads to Jesus (wisdom) the other leads to hell.
Both Wisdom, and the foolish woman clearly display mankind has a free will choice in which path they'll take.
So many scriptures where God gives people choices to use their minds to choose right or wrong with their own autonomy (free will).
Goes to show you how powerful deception (witchcraft) has blinded the minds of people not to be able to reason logically. Pride is a terrible stronghold.
Calvinists believe in free will. I'm concerned that you would make accusations of witchcraft and pride when you yourself don't understand what you're speaking against.
Been really good to see you get into Jeff Durbin's stuff.
As far as his ministries and efforts in combatting the social and cultural pitfalls of our day, he's a champion of the faith and a much needed man of God who takes up that roll.
But his soteriology and allegiance to the Calvinism camp is . . . meh...
I agree that he is doing great things for social issues such as fighting against abortion. However he is far from a champion of the faith he’s the opposite he is an enemy against the faith he is actively bewitching people with false doctrine and leading people astray at the same time pushing people away from Christ by presenting a false god and not the God of the Bible
What's the difference between provisionism vs molinism?
That question in regards to the Reformed/deterministic perspective: on what basis is God condemning the non-elect. Wouldn't the only answer be, on the basis of original sin? ( A Reformed person could say "man sinned first" ) Anyone know what Reformed would answer?
Calvinism: Condemned to hell for being born human
The biggest problem with Calvinism is the necessity to lie. You cannot tell people that God loves them, or that God wants them to repent, if either of those things may or may not apply.
Yes, that's the one thing they can't give a sufficient answer to, why they should even evangelize.
Has anyone tried debating these guys in a presuppositionalist way? James white having to argue against his ability to reason given his predetermined presuppositions would be pretty fun to see.
I need to get on here and debate with yall! Get me on the show brothers.
when discussing baptism with my catholic mom and explaining why i got water baptised after i believed, as an adult, she had questions about why i did it "again". i said i made the choice this time. she said "we chose for you" regarding my sprinkling as an infant. in her view, that was sufficient. i see a shadow of calvinism in that baby sprinkling doctrine.
@@jjsam5375 agreed
"Augustine is so wholly within me that if I wished to write a confession of my faith, I could do so with all fullness and satisfaction to myself out of his writings" (John Calvin)
This is why! Of course, the RCC reveres Augustine too.
As an ex Catholic I see lots of similarities between them.
For the first couple hundred years the church believed clearly in free will. They specially rejected determinism.
Could you share writings from those early church father's writings?
I’m with you, I would love to hear a program specifically about the early church and their beliefs on this subject.
@@letscleanhouse
@thedixiekitchen77
Dean Odle has a good teaching on this showing what the early church fathers believed and that determinism is Gnostic and heretical
Not only will the Calvinist ask the red herring “so are you better than…?” but also they will use another form of sophistry to take you away from the text into philosophical arguments and ask “so do you think you are smarter than the person who doesn’t believe”? This is also sophistry because the gospel isn’t for high IQ people, it’s not about intelligence per scripture it’s about suppression of the truth in unrighteousness. The unbeliever is the one who suppresses the truth (of the gospel) in their own unrighteousness.
As an add-on to my last comment, since there is no edit button available to update my prior comment, I'll just add that a Calvinist, or a Christian, doesn't think he/she is better than anyone else at all. Instead, they simply trust God's Word, and understand that we are not better at all and are need of Christ just as much as anyone else, as ALL fall short of God's Glory. We are all guilty of sin. So how can we think we are better? I'll try to get through watching the rest of this video, but it's easier to do that when you can at least see that the person in the video is not either purposely misrepresenting another's position or simply doesn't truly understand the other's position.
As if a person cannot become humble, even purposely so.
The Bible says, "humble yourself".
Thus we can and it is not arrogance to humble yourself or admit to it.
The Bible also says to keep the moral law. That doesn't mean you can.
@@wesleydahar7797Jesus did, and he was made like us in every respect and tempted in every way just as we are. Paul says that whenever we're tempted, there is a way of escape. God isn't going to tell someone to do something they can't do and then punish them for it.
@@ABC123jd In every respect but without sin.
"For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses, but one who in every respect has been tempted as we are, yet without sin."
- Hebrews 4:15
If you claim that men can keep the moral law then you have bigger problems. God said there are none who are righteous, and every inclination of man's heart is evil continually.
Paul writes to those filled with the Holy Spirit who enables us to resist temptation. But even with the Holy Spirit men will still fall into sin.
@@wesleydahar7797 Yeah, he was made like us in every respect, but he didn't sin. That's what I said. If we were born with some sinful nature or whatever that makes us unable to not sin, and Jesus wasn't, then he wasn't made like us in every respect. Read the first part of the verse: "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses." If we were born with this sinful nature that Jesus wasn't born with, then we do have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses.
Romans 3:10-18
As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.” “Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; “The poison of asps is under their lips”; “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; Destruction and misery are in their ways; And the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
You think this is referring to every human being without exception? Is Jesus not an exception? Aren't all the people the Bible calls righteous exceptions? Is your throat an open tomb? Is destruction and misery in your way? This is a hyperbolic passage about God looking at the world and seeing how it has turned away from him and doesn't trust in him. It doesn't apply to those who do trust in him, and it doesn't say that people have to be this way. People choose to be unrighteous, to turn away, to not seek after God, etc. The whole point is that God is disappointed in mankind for how they turned out, which would make no sense if that's just the way he created them.
Genesis 6:5-8
The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
The text says that God "saw" that every intention of the thought of his heart was only evil continually, meaning he watched and learned that this was the case. Would it make sense for me to say "I saw that it was going to rain" if I always knew it was going to rain? The very next verse says that because of this, he was grieved and regretted that he made man. That would make no sense if he knew mankind would turn out this way because that's the way he created them.
1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.
So you think the hidden assumption in Paul's statement is even though believers won't be tempted beyond what they can bear, everyone else will certainly be tempted beyond what they can bear? Where did you get that from? The plain reading is that God just doesn't tempt people beyond what they can bear because that would be unjust and make him unfaithful. Why would Paul say "God is faithful" if God tempting people beyond what they can bear is perfectly just? Also, notice that he says "No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man." What does it mean "common to man?" It means temptation that happens to men in general, right? If you're right, that we are tempted in a way that isn't beyond what we can bare, but most people are, then how have we only been tempted as is common to man?
After looking closer at all these passages, do you have more reason to believe that your basic intuition that it's unjust to punish someone for the way they were born is incorrect, or that the Bible says God punishes people for the way they were born? I would argue the former. You'd need a pretty explicit passage that would outweigh that intuition, and so far all we have is the opposite.
@@wesleydahar7797Yeah, he was made like us in every respect, but he didn't sin. That's what I said. If we were born with some sinful nature or whatever that makes us unable to not sin, and Jesus wasn't, then he wasn't made like us in every respect. Read the first part of the verse: "For we do not have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses." If we were born with this sinful nature that Jesus wasn't born with, then we do have a high priest who is unable to sympathize with our weaknesses.
Romans 3:10-18
As it is written:
“There is none righteous, no, not one; There is none who understands; There is none who seeks after God.They have all turned aside; They have together become unprofitable; There is none who does good, no, not one.” “Their throat is an open tomb; With their tongues they have practiced deceit”; “The poison of asps is under their lips”; “Whose mouth is full of cursing and bitterness.” “Their feet are swift to shed blood; Destruction and misery are in their ways; And the way of peace they have not known.” “There is no fear of God before their eyes.”
You think this is referring to every human being without exception? Is Jesus not an exception? Aren't all the people the Bible calls righteous exceptions? Is your throat an open tomb? Is destruction and misery in your way? This is a hyperbolic passage about God looking at the world and seeing how it has turned away from him and doesn't trust in him. It doesn't apply to those who do trust in him, and it doesn't say that people have to be this way. People choose to be unrighteous, to turn away, to not seek after God, etc. The whole point is that God is disappointed in mankind for how they turned out, which would make no sense if that's just the way he created them.
Genesis 6:5-8
The Lord saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every intention of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. And the Lord regretted that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him to his heart. So the Lord said, “I will blot out man whom I have created from the face of the land, man and animals and creeping things and birds of the heavens, for I am sorry that I have made them.” 8 But Noah found favor in the eyes of the Lord.
The text says that God "saw" that every intention of the thought of his heart was only evil continually, meaning he watched and learned that this was the case. Would it make sense for me to say "I saw that it was going to rain" if I always knew it was going to rain? The very next verse says that because of this, he was grieved and regretted that he made man. That would make no sense if he knew mankind would turn out this way because that's the way he created them.
1 Corinthians 10:13
No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man; but God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will also make the way of escape, that you may be able to bear it.
So you think the hidden assumption in Paul's statement is even though believers won't be tempted beyond what they can bear, everyone else will certainly be tempted beyond what they can bear? Where did you get that from? The plain reading is that God just doesn't tempt people beyond what they can bear because that would be unjust and make him unfaithful. Why would Paul say "God is faithful" if God tempting people beyond what they can bear is perfectly just? Also, notice that he says "No temptation has overtaken you except such as is common to man." What does it mean "common to man?" It means temptation that happens to men in general, right? If you're right, that we are tempted in a way that isn't beyond what we can bare, but most people are, then how have we only been tempted as is common to man?
After looking closer at all these passages, do you have more reason to believe that your basic intuition that it's unjust to punish someone for the way they were born is incorrect, or that the Bible says God punishes people for the way they were born? I would argue the former. You'd need a pretty explicit passage that would outweigh that intuition, and so far all we have is the opposite.
God is not arbitrary. If the answer to “why God chooses” is always “because He’s sovereign,” they’re defining sovereignty as being arbitrary in regard to His decisions, which is contrary to God’s character.
They define sovereign as “control” not authority.
@@thirdplace3973 That can be another way to describe how they see it. I keep viewing it as the choice is so random/arbitrary, that there’s no rhyme or reason to one person being saved and the other person basically prevented from being saved.
@@KlaustheViking Arbitrary means entirely up to the arbiter. And I was talking about the Calvinist because they use a definition for “sovereign” not found in any dictionary on Earth. They use the same words as Bible believers but they have their own definitions.
God is arbitrary in Calvinism because Calvinism can't explain why God elects person A over B.
@@thirdplace3973 Don't you think it's awful of you to say that Calvinists are not Bible believers?
Calvinists use the common definition of sovereign: "Exercising power of rule". Can you give an example of your absurd claim that Calvinists use other definitions?
It’s so hard to just find clarity in the scriptures because if these Augustine doctrines, it hurts the body of Christ and it’s so deceptive to the truth that your belief and faith in Christ has power to save the sinner completely from sin.
Cheating on your taxes is not immoral because taxation is theft. Stealing from your neighbor is a better example.
Taxation is theft if you don't agree to it*
Unfortunately, many calvinists are incapable of actually hearing opposing views in regards to Calvinistic doctrines. Ironically, many will deal patiently with atheists and those of false religions but amongst the non Calvinist believer, they are stubborn and uncharitable, at least by majority in my experience
As_It_Is_Written: No, not "incapable." They are unwilling to listen or consider a different view.
If Calvinists are incapable, no calvinist would ever become a non-calvinist.
And if that were true that they are incapable, then the fault lies with God, the creator.
Either God created them incapable, or God intervened and turned the capable into the incapable.
@@sheilasmith7779 you're taking my comment too woodenly. I'm being hyperbolic
@As_It_Is_Written And how from the words of your comment would we know you are being hyperbolic?
Words have meaning, and each one matters.
@@sheilasmith7779 there are plenty of Biblical examples of hyperbole. Look at my comment. I clearly do not think they're truly unable as I said many or most, though there are some that are able. When I say able, I'm speaking in a way that suggests that because of their assumption that their presuppositions are true, they cannot because they're right. It's circular reasoning. They would have to humble themselves and consider that they might be wrong in order to see the other side and consider it. They don't want to hear and so they don't. This is why I said they're "unable." I'm speaking hyperbolically to show that they could but not as long as they presuppose they're right
@As_It_Is_Written You stated, "They don't want to hear, so they
don't."
This does not mean they are unable. The use of the word, "want," means "willing," and conversely, "unwilling."
The entire human race is able to choose. Not many or most are able or unable. All humans are able; some are willing, some are not.
I'd ask Calvinists what makes them better than everyone in such that God chose them and condemned all others. The hubris.
I’m not a Calvinist, but because of Ephesians Chapter 1, I feel chosen by God to be one of His. I’m not better than anyone one else. I’m thankful, I’m grateful and humbled but no better than anyone else. The question I ask is not why does God choose some of us and not all of us, but why does God choose any of us at all ?
If you knew anything about calvinists you would know that they don’t think they merit God’s grace in any way. This comment is silly
@@jjsam5375that's a pretty common calvinistic question for a non calvinist to ask. The answer is simple. God chooses those who humble themselves, repent and place their faith in Christ alone for their salvation. He rejects the proud who think they can behave in a way that merritts their own salvation.
@@jjsam5375Most of the "I'm not a Calvinist" intros in a forum like this come from people who have zero objection to any propositions of the TULIP acrostic. Because they are liberated by moral relativism, it may take some tooth pulling to cause admission of distinctively Calvinistic belief while trying to distance themselves from the label.
@@williammarinelli2363 Well, that’s your opinion. I myself don’t live by TULIP. I live by , like I said, Ephesians chapter 1 and Romans 9 where He tells us I will have mercy and compassion on whom He chooses and He will harden who He chooses, He’s the potter, we’re the clay, He make one vessel unto honor, one unto
dishonor. Oh, and let’s not forget, before Rebecca’s children were born, they hadn’t done any good or evil but God decided to love Jacob and hate Esau. Now show me Free Will in that.
God made this world, He can do what He wants with it. We have no say so. Romans 9:20 says Who are thou that repliest against God ? Shall the thing formed say to Him that formed it, why has thou made me thus ? That’s what it says. In other words, Who are we to say anything against what God does ?
Think back to the garden after the fall. God went looking for Adam, Adam didn’t go looking for God, as a matter of fact Adam hid from God. We would all still be hiding from God if He hadn’t chosen some of us to be His. And no, the ones chosen don’t feel superior over everyone else. They feel thankful, grateful and humbled by it all, knowing what could have been. Leighton is brain washing you people to believe lies.
I would love to just once hear, James White or Jeff Durban actually critique one of your videos, the same way you critique theirs. With scripture, kindness, and truth. I’ve never seen those guys do anything but attack people when someone questions them. I would really love to see them handle themselves differently. I’ve never seen that.
The calvinist is not asking the question what do you believe makes you better genuinely. What they're trying to set up is what they believe is the answer to a logical trap.
What they're trying to do is to get you to assume their foundational axioms. One of which is total depravity. They want you to assume that total depravity is true, which is just a theory on their part and they believe that the answer is prefaith regeneration when it comes to questions of soteriology.
That question is meant to set up a gotcha. It's just a rhetorical trick.
CALVINISM is so BLASPHEMOUS, it's amazing how people would preach this and persist in teaching it all their lives. Calvinism ultimately gives two conclusions when followed through to its logical conclusion; 1. Fatalism 2. Makes God the author of Evil.
No it doesn't. Calvinism denies God's responsibility for man's sin. Man has free will. Go read what Calvin actually wrote.
I'd really like to see a live debate. It's easy to make assertions from a place you can't be challenged.
Leighton, you should expose yourself to people who can rebut your straw man arguments against Calvinism, which is simply scripture interpreted by scripture without human reasoning imposing a lens through which it is interpreted. It just requires humility to know that some mysteries belong to God. Calvin recognized this. It is you who bend scripture to your limited understanding and develop a framework of limited sovereignty.
Calvinism denies God's responsibility for man's sin, so every time you claim otherwise, it's a straw man argument.
Funny you claim Leighton is bending scripture to his limited understanding when it was actually John Calvin who decided to write an entire Christian systematic at only 26years old and after having been saved only 3 years....
It's odd that you all have no problem placing faith in the understanding of a novice Christian whom Paul says should not have ever been in a place of authority at that time.
Also, it is Leighton who is regularly inviting Calvinst on his show (including invites to durbin and white) but they consistently reject any kind of discussion.
Finally though James White has agreed to a formal debate this spring. But still will not talk to Leighton one on one.
@@BEABEREAN10 Well, I'm not convinced by your argument from authority, so sorry.
I also took a quick look and didn't see the live debates you mentioned, so maybe I missed them.
Either way, I can go to scripture to defend what I believe, not to Calvin. I'm more concerned about the hyper-anti-calvinists I usually see in the comments section who need to learn what exactly Calvin understood about scripture instead of hearing it from Leighton.
@@wesleydahar7797 if you aren't convinced just look at history and you'll see that Calvin wrote the systematic as a new convert. And secondly, you would have never read scripture in accord with the 5 points of Calvinsm if you had not been first introduced to the five points. No one naturally comes away with that framework, it's taught.
And finally, there was a debate between flowers and white like 7 years ago, but there is another THIS coming spring, meaning it hasn't happened yet.
Again, Leighton would love to go on stream and talk to Calvinists but he is never invited and he is always rejected when he asks lol
@@BEABEREAN10 Yes. I'm watching that debate right now. I just found it.
Born again, yes better than I was as having eternal life and able to live according to God's will. Fairly simple to me...
I also think that your debate against James white was a slam dunk and we should be passionate about the truth concerning this.
Pelagianism: Humans by Divine Grace (to be given something you don’t deserve) have ‘Free Will’ to achieve Human Perfection. God mentions Grace regarding Salvation & forgiveness. He never mentions Grace to achieve human perfection.
Haven’t watched it yet, but I bet Jeff ignored verses 3 and 4 which is the context of chapter 9. Context and Calvinism never goes together, they must always ignore the context of the passage or verses that come previous to or after their pet proof-texts they use to support their ideology/philosophy.
Many proponents of Calvinism seem to be like many proponents of a young creation; utterly unable to conceive of the possibility that their interpretation may be flawed. It's not that they evaluate the arguments and think they're right, it's that they can't countenance the idea that they may be wrong.
I think animals freely determine what they choose to do. For instance, I don't think that God controls every little thing every animal does; nor do I think that animals operate completely on instinct. I see that animals are influenced in ways that lead an animal to make choices that appear to go against its nature.
I’m young in my faith and came across your posts here on RUclips, I an learning a great deal and appreciate all you do. I do have a question though, why oh why is so much of the attention given to such a troublesome James White.
Just as Adam and Eve could choose to eat or not eat from the forbidden tree, so are we, the decents able to choose.
Human nature NEVER changed after Adam and Eve.
One of the changes that makes our lives MORE difficult than Adam and Eve is our real-estate.
Adam and Eve had innumerable benefits in Eden. The environment was perfect, no storms, no illness, no death. They walked with God. They were provided everything.
So in our world, having a relationship with God is challenging....but not impossible.
Who are the "hardened?"
They are those that have firmly planted their feet in a belief and an ungodly behavior.
The hardened are those unwilling to change, NOT those unable to change.
Can not, and, will not are NOT the same.
Man the calvinists are being very unfair in this comment section. Just remember brothers, be patient and loving. Dont fall into their traps of hate.
Leighton doesn’t flatten it out - he fleshes it out.
Leighton opens up the other side of the curtain to clearly show the other half of Calvinism which they don’t like to be seen.
Mr Flowers, can someone come to faith after God has hardened their heart?
I'm not Dr. Flowers, but I believe the answer is "yes, if God relents". Paul seems to be holding out hope that the hardened Jews of his day will be grafted back in. My 2 cents...
Yes, difficult but not impossible. That's why Jesus spoke in parables so they don't believe even though they were already hardened.
So Titus 3:5 when it takes place is not only better but its a totally New Creature 2 Cor 517. But a Calvinist has no choice but to reconstruct entire verses to explain their Calvinism.
If even a former Calvinist can't understand Calvinism, "Who then can be saved?" 🤔
I am a saved by grace through faith born again Christian. I believe that God made salvation a simple thing to understand. John 3;16 and Ephesians 2:8,9 are very understandable verses. As I read Romans 9 it is plain to me that Paul is talking about the Jews and that they are in the law they cannot be saved. That Christ was their way to salvation. Those who rejected Christ, God would not save. In Romans 9:30-33 Certainly explains to me anyway, that “faith” was not attained for the Jews who were still in the law. God wants all to be saved but all won’t because they reject the Christ.
Calvinist regeneration is like saying, “I need the Holy Spirit to receive the Holy Spirit”. Weird 20:47
I think they are misrepresenting what the words "fair" and "impartial" mean...
@ 47 minutes in. YES!!!! The condescending ad hominem projected by Calvinists is quite frustrating. To say the least, they really piss me off with their smugness concerning their PHILOSOPHY salvation. Oh, it can't be possible that people who love God want to spread the gospel, but don't agree with Calvinist garbage that really doesn't matter.
I’m one who also believes the gospel is for everyone and we have free will. But I have to disagree with the nonbeliever not being judged for their sins. Scripture says all will be judged according to their sins, not just that they reject the gospel. Ultimately, yes they reject the gospel, but they will also be judged according to their sins. And there are plenty of passages describing how God will pour His wrath on the wicked, so I’m confused about what was said about that. Around the 1:30:00 mark. Can anyone clarify, please?
mariebo7491: It is not always possible to determine who is genuinely mistaken, misinformed, and who are lying.
There is no indication in scripture how those who do not know will be judged by God.
However, scripture is clear on how God will judge the rebel.
Where does it say one will be "judged according to their sins".
Render to every man according to his deeds. What are these deeds?
- Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;
Rom 2:6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:
Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:
Rom 2:8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,
Rom 2:9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;
Rom 2:10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:
Rom 2:11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
Joh 3:16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
Joh 3:17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
Joh 3:18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
Joh 3:19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
Joh 3:20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
Joh 3:21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.
Joh 12:44 Jesus cried and said, He that believeth on me, believeth not on me, but on him that sent me.
Joh 12:45 And he that seeth me seeth him that sent me.
Joh 12:46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.
Joh 12:47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
Joh 12:48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.
Joh 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, he gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.
Joh 12:50 And I know that his commandment is life everlasting: whatsoever I speak therefore, even as the Father said unto me, so I speak.
We are judged for not putting on imputed righteousness that come from obeying truth and not outright rejecting the provision of God. God sees them as sinners yes, and yes they cant inherit the Kingdome of God if they die as a sinner in His eyes but He loves the sinner and wants them to come to repentance so as to have Christs righteousness imputed.
Hope that helps... God bless.
Thank you, Leighton, for standing for truth. I love Jesus answer in Matthew 23. Jesus saying he longed to gather the jews but they were not willing. God desires none to perish and says this in his word. It comes down to choice, just like you said. We are created in God's image with free choice. When Adam and Eve sinned scripture does not say God removed free will or free choice. Calvinist view is full of Pride they impose their view on God's word. Revelation 22 states we are not to add to or take away from the word. I pray they turn to the true living God and not their TULIP God. They are not drawing disciples for Christ they are drawing disciples for calvinism TULIP.🙏🙏 They need our prayers to turn them from this false Gospel
My biggest issue with Calvinists is how many of them spend a lot of time debating, or admonishing, non-Calvinists Christians. I've been witnessing to the lost, and every so often, a Calvinist will interrupt into the online conversation, and condemn me for telling somebody to humble themselves and accept Christ into their hearts. I find this very counterproductive, to the point that, some Calvinists seem to be hell bent on their Calvinism, and don't give a rats ass about the gospel.
Maybe those hyper-Calvinists aren't even Christians at all.
I loved watching James White and Jeff Durbin witnessing to the cults. If was very informative and helpful with my own ministries. But it seems to counterproductive when they spend time debating Christians over something that is Philosophical, at best. Belief in the Calvinist POV isn't salvific.
I have never in my life witnessed a Calvinist condemn somone for telling them to humble themselves and accept Christ into their hearts. I think every Christian believes it's best to humble oneself and accept Christ as their Savior. However, I also think that if it's God's Will, the person will accept Him. He will soften or harden a heart as He wills, for His purposes.
@@josephmarr1664 Maybe you haven't talked to many Calvinists. Another thing I noticed is there is no congruity within Calvinism. Many will say, "You just don't understand Calvinism."
True, I don't know how anybody would believe Calvinism.
This video exposes and refutes the falacies, contradictions, and incoherence of Jeff's ideology. There is no way to be intellectually honest and still hold to their positions. I guess untempered zeal can cause us to all be blinded by our biases.
And if I'm wrong, then I've been determined to be so.
Thumbnail is clickbait as I was hoping for an actual interaction between Leighton and Durbin, not Leighton’s echo chamber again.
Again I'll ask you a simple question please no sleight of hand you were once a calvinist you were right then are you right now that you have changed from calvinist to arminianism? And Paul on the road to Damascus explain how he chose to follow Christ? And how is it that God has written those who would be saved in the Lamb's book of Life before the foundation of the world. So are you saved in 2023 and then God goes back to the foundation and write your name before the earth was formed or before its foundation?
Am I missing the passage that says those who are written in the lamb's book of life, is written before the foundation of the world? I check Phil 3 and Rev 21, but didn't see it there...
I think if you let Jeff Durbin speak longer on the video, he explains that sinful man wants to do sin in his fallen nature, and God has to call him and "Grant" him faith 1 Phil. 1:29 to believe.
You left out the rest of that verse.
It says,
"..,but also to suffer for His sake."
Would you say God makes you suffer in the same way He makes you believe?
May I suggest you look into the difference between a noun and an infinitive (verb form of a noun).
The verbs "believe" and "suffer" are infinitive in 1:29
Also, "grant" is "charizomai"
To graciously give.
"You've been graciously given not only the privilege of believing but also the privilege of suffering."
Besides, Paul uses the word "salvation" three times in philippians - but referring to deliverance through the intense persecution they were suffering.
Not eternal life: in keeping with the next verse after the one you cited.
Philippians 1:30 (KJV 1900):
Having the >same conflict< which ye saw in me, and now hear to be in me.
Paul, in philippians is (in part) encouraging them to endure persecution because of the Gospel, with joy.
They were losing all things, were terrified by their adversaries, and were being jailed because of the Gospel.
Essentially going through similar trials and tribulation that Paul was/had endured.
I encourage you to study out your proof texts (something Durbin will not tell you to do) in regards to context.
I have yet to find a Calvinist proof text that says what Calvinists claim once context is taken into account.
If the bible was Calvinistic I'd be a Calvinist today.
But it doesn't
And I've looked high and low for Calvinism in Scripture.
It's not there.😊
Take care
Amen Warren. There is no relational aspect with God right now in our walk with God in Calvinism. For them the reconciliation with God is merely positional and not experiential. It makes me sad because my relationship with God from the time I was a small girl has been the reason why I could never walk away.
In Calvinism, as it seems to me....especially since I lived in it for a time, that when you drill it down to its logical conclusions prayer becomes unnecessary, and the Holy Spirit (in a personal way) becomes unnecessary in my walk and on and on. Calvinism seems to think that we need to be under another law in addition to the mosaic law. We have all the rules and that's all we need. I was also for a time in Jehovah's Witnesses (8 years) and it's exactly the same thing: We have the truth.....we have the correct understanding of Scripture....to "hear" God "speak" to you through the Holy Spirit is heresy because the only revelation of God is found in Scripture and that's final. I have heard it said that if we "hear" God speak to us that that is additional revelation from God and thus just as binding as the Holy Scriptures.
Once again it seems that it always comes back to their belief in determinism and that this is where the battle lies. When you begin with philosophical theistic determinism then, by necessity, you HAVE TO come up with the "doctrines" of Calvinism because the determinism is informing your study of Scripture.
Doesn't each person who is unsaved have the responsibility to repent by turning from their sins while turning to Christ for salvation? Isn't one person's ability to come to christ put them in a better CONDITION to be saved?
Aside from never observing anyone who completely turned from their sins, I suppose not all have equal "ability." The disciplined child has the advantage of understanding punishment and consequences that he would lack without discipline. Or, in a Solomon provided maxim, "Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell."
This issue you will always have with Roman’s 9 is verse 24 it simply states that the application for verse 22 and 23 is not just for the Jews but also it doesn’t state that the hardening is for the jews in general and the making vessels of mercy is for the gentiles in general but Paul says it’s not just for the just but also the gentiles as well stating that verse 22 and 23 application is for both including himself and the people whom he is writing to in which later in the letter he addresses as gentiles. It’s just simply impossible to reconcile Roman’s 9 with provisionism nor Roman’s 8. You say Calvinist believe in “deistic determinism” but the Greek word used in passages like Roman’s 8:29 literally means to predetermine. So it would translate “those whom he foresaw he predetermined” with a more direct translation. Also John 10 is a huge stumbling block for provisionist because the whole passage is about how only Jesus sheep are able to respond to His voice implying only certain people are capable of Belief and to double down on it Jesus says “you don’t believe because you not my sheep” in verse 26 as opposed to “your not my sheep because you don’t believe” indicating that your ability to believe is based on you being a Christ sheep prior to conversion and your inability to believe is based on you not being His sheep prior to the calling of His voice.
John 6:65 is also impossible to reconcile to your theology because it states Gods election has to proceed us coming to Christ to enable us to come to Him and He makes the application universal when he says “NO MAN”
Your theology is bad Especially when it comes to its application to nations in history who never heard the gospel, to say that Gods condition of salvation is impartial and sufficient enough for them is to say that they can just arbitrarily save themselves without anyone preaching to them and that’s just absurd. Your theology is flat out terrible and impossible to reconcile with scripture and you continue to deceive many people.
You misunderstand Paul's audience and his message.
Hint: they're Judaized Gentiles
@@shredhed572 so what your saying is when Paul proceeds verse 22 and 23 in Roman’s 9 with 24 in which he states it’s not for the Jews only but also the gentiles
But what he really meant that it’s not for the Jews only but also the Judaized gentiles?
It’s you who doesn’t understand Paul’s message my friend that’s just not what Roman’s 9:24 is saying. You are simply responding to my point with your “nuh uh” this term doesn’t apply to gentiles because I don’t want it to despite what the text clearly says. It’s pathetic
@@shredhed572 also Roman’s 9 whole point is that there is not distinction between the children of promise of Israel and the church of the gentiles.
”But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “through Isaac your descendants will be named.” That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.“
Romans 9:6-8
Paul’s entire point is that Gods promised descendants are not a ethnic group of people but rather those whom he elects by His will and that this children of promise extend from the revelation given to Abraham to issac and Jacob, then to Moses then to Christ and then to the gentiles through Christ. The whole passages is about Gods election extending from the covenants given through the Old Testament and how His election has expanded from them the gentiles in general. This is why Paul’s says
”So then it does not depend on the man who wills or the man who runs, but on God who has mercy.“
Romans 9:16
Notice how he says it’s not the man who runs or wills but God who has mercy but he does not say it’s not the ethnic nation of Israel who runs or wills but Gos who has mercy. It’s evident that the passage is talking about individuals not ethnic groups of people behind the children of promise. That’s the whole point Paul is making in verse 6-8. I’m sorry you’ve been deceived into making this distinction and false dichotomy between Gods election of Jews as opposed to gentiles but it’s simply no in the text.
If Calvinists actually read all scriptures WITHOUT a lens, they would see that God’s own definition of faith antithetical to think you are or being better.
Scripture tells us that God seeks the humble and contrite. If God judges you to be so, then you would not think you are better, but instead be acknowledging your depravity. Calvinist say God is seeking the chosen, which makes no sense, but they would not have such characteristics until they are found and changed, and at that point there is no more seeking.
Jesus says repeatedly that we must lose our life to gain it, speaking of surrender. How does surrender indicate superiority? Someone surrenders because they believe they have the power to resist, or meet their need on their own.
Their entire system is founded on extra biblical assumptions and philosophies. Like all liberal/gnostic false teachings, they find fragments of scripture, pull them from context and view everything through it.
Calvinists have more in common with the pharisees of Jesus’s day than new testament believers. They both believe they were chosen and the rest of the world was hated by God and created to fuel the fires of hell. They have traded robes/tasles for suits/ties, phylacteries for big leather boys bibles, and the 600+ rabbinical laws for a laundry list of things the chosen do not do (dance, drink, smoke, and etc). They take their beards… wait, most of them kept those🤣😂
Leighton seems to believe freewill is something that doesn’t require an intellect and will. Do we just make arbitrary choices? Or do we intake data that we use to choose A or B or refrain from either?
Brother, Leighton believes in libertarian free will, and now you're going to post a comment saying he doesn't believe there is a will in free will? Think about that....
A Lycan share? 😜
Frankly Leighon I can’t understand why you would debate someone who you would probably admit, has open distain for you. This is not a debate between brothers as you would prefer. This is you debating someone who mocks and belittles you. That doesn’t seem to be fertile ground for productive conversation.
I think the listeners will be very enlightened by their exchange, even if neither of them will change their own minds!
@@LeticiaFrenette well, I hope that’s the case, but I fear that with the lack of respect for Dr. flowers by James White, it could degenerate into a very petty situation from his side.
Calvinism teaches that there is only the elect and the reprobate, does it not? Given the conditions for being elect, is it safe to say that no one who was elect lived before Jesus?
What?? NO
@@NelsonAerial how so?
Talancir, honestly, if you’re asking this question, I dare say you literally have no idea about the Old Covenant and the New. Salvation didn’t Only start at Christs Resurrection. God gave Abraham the gift of faith, believing in that which was a distant future reality. God gave Abraham a new heart where he was regenerated and able to receive the gift of faith in the coming Messiah, as was promised. This is 100% the act of God. As Jesus was asked by the apostles “what must we do to do the Works of God?“ “Jesus answered and said, this is God‘s work that you believe.” Belief is the work of God alone. Being dead in sin means literally that, spiritual death, which passes from Adam to you and me requires that the Holy Spirit draws us to Him. The Bible tells us there are goats and sheep. Nowhere in scripture do goats become sheep or sheep become goats. Jesus said “…my sheep hear my voice, and they come to me.” Jesus also said, “those the Father has given me Will come to me“ No doubt whatsoever, the elect are all those for whom Jesus died. Unless you’re a universalist that rejects the clear teaching of hell in the Bible.
@NelsonAerial I'm having trouble locating where it says Abraham had a regenerated heart. Can this be demonstrated in scripture?
The elephant in the room is what I like to call "the election of circumstance". None of us choose where we are born or to what parents etc... Think of the millions who have never heard the gospel, the Native Americans had religion, but no gospel until it arrived hundreds of years after Christ.
Baby's deserve salvation. That crumbles the Calvinist system right there. Transgression of the law requires death, not merely nature.
I don't believe there is any direct biblical support on this topic (which is why its debated so much). So, if someone is born and never sins (theoretically - I know there is unintentional sin, and many ways to sin).... would they go to heaven?
Jesus did that. He also didn't have a sin nature. He had free will, was tempted in every way as a man(like us) EXCEPT, He never sinned.
Because of our nature, we will eventually stumble. We will sin. It's the transgression of the law that warrants spiritual execution(sacrifice for sins(not sin nature))
Jesus, because of His performance not mine, allows my justification before God.
Sin means we fail God's standards. Sin is a verb. Its missing the mark.(for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God) A baby doesn't make any choice to sin. Therefore there is no falling short.
Best example is a baby in the womb. If Calvinism is true...some babies who die in the womb are chosen by God to go to Hell.(horrible decree)
Babies don't sin. There is no failing a standard...no action. Therefore there is no support that a nature alone will send someone to Hell.
@@filmscorelife4225 Ok...that helps to clarify. So, you believe that we become sinners, once we actually sin. Before that, we are all innocent, and would be saved (or, more accurately don't Need to be saved) before that.
@@jayvansickle7607 Right. Even in our society and justice system, we don't suffer punishment if we haven't committed a crime. I would be careful about the (we won't need a savior) part similarly to Paul cautioning against antinomianism just because of the power of the blood.
Discussions of age of accountability come later, but if we find an exception to the Calvinist rule regarding determinism on babies in the womb, then that system crumbles.
@@filmscorelife4225 Not to back track....but, wouldn't you say that babies "Don't need to be saved"? Especially in light of your OP, that says they haven't transgressed the law yet.
Calvinists have a such a weird perspective on God relating to His creation, specifically people. If God isn’t determining everyone’s every thought & action then He is just “trying” and “failing” in His interactions with them. Is that how their own personal relationships work in the real world? They really refuse in their own freewills, which they’ll deny they have, to give God the freedom to not be deterministic! And they make God a narcissist who is controlling and then blames the person being controlled. How does such a “god” deserve any praise or glory?
Is the calvinist going to heaven?
You don't have to be better to believe the Gospel. You just need to understand you are not.
Some for honor and some for dishonor?
Jeff and White are just afraid to openly address the points directly.
2:07:00 Peter repented of his misunderstanding after the Spirit corrected him. How long did Peter persist in his mistaken belief? How long has James White?
Do you believe the Spirit, who provides understanding, has chosen to leave White in his unbelief or is it more likely James is not getting spiritual understanding because he is in a cult and possibly not indwelt by the Spirit so as to be corrected? The latter seems more likely.
And you answer this in a sense pointing out that both Peter and Paul were corrected. We then have to assume that the Spirit is purposely leaving White in the dark or that the Spirit is not White in the first place.
I have a hard time believing that a man who spends as much time doing what he does what be abandoned to false teaching (confidently claiming error) by the Spirit if he were truly indwelt. Is this possibly a case of "I never knew you"? Did Jesus really know you when you were a Calvinist?
Does Calvinism really teach that God determines evil as opposed to allowing and judging it? Thats easy to not believe.
Now if they simply believe that God chooses to save some and not others, that is more tenable. We all deserve hell and if God thinks His glory is better served by showing all aspects of His character (grace and justice), so be it.
It's pretty sad that James White claims that Leighton Flowers was never a Calvinist. It reminds me of muslims who always accuse ex-muslims of lying about having been muslims. It's difficult for the person to accept that someone could leave the faith they hold so dear, so they start attacking their character instead. It's a sort of coping strategy.
The woke do the same to the detransitioners. As long as you think like them, you are welcome.
I believe in "original sin," as the first sin, the initial existence of sin. And that is all. No other implication from that.
I don't believe the fruit consumption is original sin if sin existed prior (i.e. adding to the Word, Lucifer's rebellion.) Original anything means it came first.
@williammarinelli2363 Well I was not including heaven. But, if heaven is included, then you are correct.
Every knee will bow and every tongue JOYFULLY confess…
Except “should” is not part of the adjective in Koine, only ‘bow’
κάμψῃ (kampsē). It’s an imperative.
Isaiah 45:23 is explicit. That’s who Paul is quoting in both Romans and Philippians.
‘For you are those who in grace have been saved by faithfulness: and this, God’s gift, is not from you, nor from observances, so that no one may boast.’-Eph2:8-9
‘For in hope we have been saved, but a hope seen is not hope; for why hope for what one sees?’-R8:24
I don’t see anything odd. Do you?
Christ is grace (Titus 3:4-6) & faithful (1C1:9) & hope (Titus 2:13)
In other words, every knee will bow and every tongue joyfully confess. Love must be a relationship. That’s what makes it love. Love is forgiveness 70x7. The Calvinist way is not love because there is no will in man, and the Provisionist way is not love either, because God puts a limit on his love as Father, a limit based on the obstinate will of man.
Very well said.
He raised up Pharoah for His purposes. Did he not have free will? The sad truth, Few will find the narrow road no matter what they want.