Who are His Sheep? Another look at John 10 | James White | Leighton Flowers | Soteriology 101
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- Опубликовано: 15 окт 2024
- Dr. Leighton Flowers is joined by Warren McGrew to respond to another critique offered by Dr. James White on his Dividing Line Broadcast yesterday (seen here: www.youtube.co...)
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#Leighton Flowers #Predestination #Calvinism #Provisionism #Calvinist #Salvation
How is it possible to be in an,
" intimate," but be unaware?
Intimate means a knowing of another, acceptance of another, a desire for another......but one party of the relationship is unaware of the other party?
There are mysteries, but our relationship with God is not a mystery.
Great as always. Thank you Dr. Flowers!
indeed!
Leighton, stop saying you are a doofus !! You are NOT. Intelligent people take lots of notes and prepare their debate outlines. Only a fool relies totally on their ability to remember all the potential questions and answers., and you, my friend are not a fool. You’ve been very instrumental in teaching me about Calvinism, and helping me verbalize what I believe Scripture says, plainly and understandable by the average person . Make sure you keep your 2 little mutts out of your coffee, though! They’ll start demanding coffee breaks and donuts!🇨🇦🤠
I think Leighton is just making the point that what matters is what’s true or false not the individuals intelligence IE “they need notes.” Obviously having notes doesn’t equal that person is unintelligent but Leighton conceding to James’s deflection is Leighton’s way of saying “ok James you are smarter than me so now that I’ve conceded that show me how what I am saying is false and what you’re saying is true.” I think Leighton is just highlighting that what James said about the notes is irrelevant to the point of contention not that he actually thinks “he is drooling on his keyboard.” Lol!
I find it interesting that J. White doesn't enable comments on his videos...At least I haven't found any where they are enabled. It's almost like he is afraid of the number of arguments against Calvinism that will be posted that he really can't refute biblically. Thanks so much for what you do on this channel.
You will find that all of these false teachers have their comments turned off because they can no longer get away with their heresy. "Wretched " comments turned off, "John MacArthur" comments turned off, John Piper, Washer etc.
A one sided argument seems right until you hear the other side. Satan will not have people hear the truth. Lies and liars are protected to further the schemes of the devil.
To turn comments off is to cancel the opposition. To silence them.
Truth in Love
It’s like MacArthur recently did a video telling his followers NOT to get theology from the internet and that HE never goes on the internet. Right - nope - they just try to keep people who are trapped in reformed teaching from listening to anyone but them. It’s the only way they can keep control over the ones who admire them.
I find it very telling that he disables comments on his videos. He can’t have people preaching the truth on his videos or else his followers might start to see the truth.
@@obrien709 Calvinism is darkness, it is evil, and false teachers fear their Heresies by exposed by the children of light!
John 3 19-21 This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil. 20 Everyone who does evil hates the light, and will not come into the light for fear that their deeds will be exposed. 21 But whoever lives by the truth comes into the light, so that it may be seen plainly that what they have done has been done in the sight of God.
The false teachers of today surround themselves with fellow false teachers, quoting and filling their libraries with books about the Calvinist myths!
2 Timothy 4 3-4 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear. 4They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.
Truth in Love
It seems that it could be all about the cage. Maybe,it was predetermined? When someone doesn’t want to be challenged. That says a lot.
Also
"Hello, my name is Leighton Flowers, I was determined not to believe in Calvinism. Prepare to debate. "
James White "Stop, saying that!"
Hahaha amazing XD
PLEASE start discussing Michael Heiser teaching! It’s so amazing!
What topic?
Trying to control your opponent with rules means you cannot best them with ideas.
As a therapist of over 40 years, the reason James White pokes at you Leighton is because you challenge him. When someone can't withstand being questioned, personality dynamics have to be assessed. That's when we look at narcissism more carefully - easily injured and a threat to their self-constructed efforts to always be special and the one who knows everything. Easy to interpret here.
31:29 YES. I'm always amused how Calvinists feel justified in opposing the very things they claim God has ordained and decreed from "eternity past". When you would think they'd be rejoicing to see God's will done in the earth. John MacArthur is especially 'fortunate' God ordained him to become so popular and $uccessful railing against all the other things which God ordained. ... How 'lucky' can one guy be🤔🤔
Wooo🎉!! "Who's up for round two" - Diego
Wasn't sure people would get the reference. Glad some did😂
I like the very real relational discussion here.... I think compassion is in order. We all know pride can be a hinderance to spiritual growth. Defensiveness, etc. Some of the self awareness you are both exhibiting here could go a long way with some folks. I really enjoyed hearing about your transition, Warren. I also always enjoy hearing about the character of God and Christ. This truth cuts through the noise and goes a long way to the heart.
This is one if the best interactions Dr. Flowers has ever done with John 6, 10 & 17. His points of rebuttal to White are so crucial and eye-opening to the unbiblical pre-suppositions the Reformed bring to the text (hence the irony of "running off to other passages").
“but you do not believe because you are not my sheep.”
Always love you guys talking together. Great video!💯💯
Thank yall!!!
Andy - Denver North Carolina
Per James White's comment comparing Leighton with Jehovah's Witnesses, I would like to comment on this as an X-Jehovah's Witness. JW's have a series of "proof texts" that they combine together to make up their doctrine. I personally become frustrated when listening to Calvinists because they actually do the very thing that JW's do. You cannot, cannot, cannot keep them on the passage right in front of them. They can't stand it that you want them to answer something from the text right in front of them. Rather than answer the question from the text in front of them they then go into the whole thing of, "well Scripture interprets Scripture and we can't get all our doctrine from just one verse." This is fine, however, the texts they want to go to say absolutely NOTHING about or shed light on the previous Scripture which helps us to understand it. When you use Scripture to interpret Scripture it needs to be talking about the same thing, but in Calvinism it isn't talking about the same thing when they jump to another Scripture. For example, I have heard them get cornered with the sheep in John 10 and then go to Matthew 25 where it talks about Jesus separating the sheep from the goats. John 10 says nothing about "goats." Prayers for your upcoming debate and the hearts and ears of those listening.
Grace and Peace to you. Would you like to be included in our Theology Group chat on a Different platform for further discussion?
The group an assortment of people with various theological beliefs and backgrounds. What we all have in common is a desire to discuss the bible, Religion and Christianity. It's a good Opportunity to witness to non-believers and fellowship with believers.
I have definitely noticed a parallel between JWs and Calvinists with regards to using proof texts. Some popular Calvinists, who have gathered a following and are looked up to for answering questions (James White, MacArthur, Piper, Sproul, etc) remind me of a type of governing body who are constantly having to come up with different ways to explain away scriptures that contradict the false soteriology.
When Calvinists evangelize, they never present their view of God.
It "does not sell,"......and they know that.
Calvinism is fatalistic. You are elect or you are not, and you can do nothing about you fated destiny.
@Jason R What????
@@sheilasmith7779 That’s his proof text. He thinks it says some people are shown partiality being irresistibly and unconditionally made to be saved while the rest are made to be evil sinners by Gods decree so that He can punish and destroy them for the way He made them to be.
All it takes is a five minute study on the book of life to learn that his assumption about this verse is false.
@Jason R Did it ever occur to you that ALL OF MANKIND are in the Book of life from the beginning as candidates that may or may not have their names blotted out by their lives they will live?
The book of life is for mankind.
Face it, Leighton, White will NEVER give you credit for anything.Everything he accuses you of, he’s guilty of the same thing. Except you are much more gracious, not sarcastic and critical like White is. He never talks to anyone else like that, only you! I think he’s jealous of the freedom you have outside of Calvinism. Love you guys!🥰
When hell freezes over.Satan's agents will never ever back down once they have given them selves over to the lie!!
What is White doing with his John Calvin beard and hair cut. Does he not see the childishness of dressing up like your super hero? He is a grown up role playing. He seems to take pride in all of his tattoos and displays them when ever he gets a chance.
It's like the only way to know a counterfeit is to study the real thing. We start life hearing many counterfeit voices speaking lies, but don't realize it until we hear the real One's voice speaking truth.
1:00:32 🤣🤣🤣🤣 STEREOGRAMS !!! The 'posters'. A good friend of mine was at a party and the house had a wall with really weird/wild/ artsy wallpaper... He walked over and started staring at it all by himself... before long someone came over and he said , "do you see it... the dragon?"... and they started to squint ... and pretty soon about 6-8 people were over there and he had all of them convinced and he was saying.... just relax .. it's there can't you see it.... 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤔🤔 The funny part is they were all sober, imagine if they weren't ... they probably could have seen a lot of things.
People need to stop qualifying their disagreement with James White by saying, "He's REALLY smart."
There's no evidence of that. The arguments he uses are so bad that it calls into question his basic ability to reason.
(For reference, I made this comment based on what he said around 1:26:45.)
Derek leaving the faith IS consistent with Calvinism - because under Calvinism there is no such thing as apostasy, only Evanescent Grace.
EXCELLENT observation IMO. Calvinists are taught to worship a God who cannot be trusted to be good to any one particular individual, only the mysterious, lucky, "elect" (as they define them). But nobody can ever know for certain if they've been given the 'Gift of Perseverance' in this lifetime. And without it ... well we all know what they say happens to those folk.😲
If God gives anyone a 'false/temporary' faith... he might have already planned to do it to the man in the mirror.
Exactly. Under Calvinism, the Calvinistic god decreed within himself whatsoever comes to pass, so Derek leaving was something decreed by the Calvinistic god.
So any Calvinists that are against that are against a decree of the Calvinistic god.
@@losnfjslefn8857 Well said
@@losnfjslefn8857 Funny how Calvinists are unable to see that .
Of course there is as scripture teaches “ those that went out from us were never of us”
God saves sinners unable to save themselves ; He holds them. Salvation start to finish is all of God.
Please do a video on those Calvinists who deny determinism.
There are probably more than the determinists would care to admit lol
@Eisen
He did a video on Greg Koukl
I ONLY know calvinists who claim to deny determinism. To them it is absurd to even claim reformed theology or Calvinism is deterministic. They use all the mumbo jumbo about compatible-ism etc., A equals not A. They can't see their beliefs logical conclusion IS determinism since God ordained the desires of their heart they mysteriously "choose" between... But even then, they supposedly choose things and yet everything that does happen was decreed. So their idea of compatible free will is utterly meaningless.
I truly hope JW honors his challenge to debate! Folks should hold him to it.
JW doesn't believe the reformed theology though. perhaps, they will debate on the subject of trinity. i recommend Greg Stafford
Jim has a serious problem. If he believes what he preaches, he is wasting his time in these debates/rebuttals. Who is he trying to convince? The "elect" will be saved no matter what. The lost will be lost no matter what he says. Attempting to convince anyone of anything is simply spinning his wheels in a predetermined mud pit!
This 'being in a relationship with God, you're just not yet aware of it' sounds like Gnosticism to me. Even though the Gnostic would probably apply it to everyone, and the Calvinist only to 'the elect', making Calvinism even more exclusivist and esoteric than Gnosticism.
Calvinism creates its own traps, and then attempts to explain the inconsistencies by claiming all outcomes as decreed by God....for the glory of God:
Webb is a Christian. Decreed by God.
Webb becomes an atheist. Decreed by God.
Webb returns to Christianity.
Decreed by God.
Webb becomes a Muslim.
Decreed by God.
Dizzy yet?
I like your clear logic. I can tell it comes with a deep understanding that only a Christian can have. It is refreshing and I have appreciated reading all of your comments. Keep up the good work sister!
Truth in Love
@@truth7416 Thanks. Sadly, embedded beliefs are difficult to change for several reasons:
Feeling disloyal to our teachers ( parents or pastors)
Pride: feeling duped or stupid.
Concern that abandonment of a belief will jeopardize salvation.
Holding onto a belief, whether about a family member's innocence, or something else, never is a failure of reason. It's the emotions that keep us trapped.
We forget the people of Israel mission was to be a light amongst the nations. Hebrews chapter 1 : 1-3. Its very important to know why God chose jacob over esau to declare his glory amongst the other nations around them.
One question about Goats. Isnt that analogy used about nations in reguards to the treatment of Israel and not believing individuals?
No
@@larrybedouin2921 well, I was hoping for a more edifying answer that that.
@@billburkey2310
Salvation is not about who your parents where.
And they [Jews] also, *if they abide not still in unbelief* shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in *again*
{Romans 11:23}
So we see that the Jews were/are not individually chosen to be the elect of God, and also they can lose their salvation due to unbelief.
Yeah, in the KJV, the word "goat" only shows up a total of 7 times in the New Testament. Of those 7 times the word 'goat' is only used in reference to people twice, and both of those times are in Matthew 25:32-33 where Jesus is talking about at the end of things when entire *nations* are being judged. In the New Testament, the word 'goat' is never used in reference to individual people.
@@losnfjslefn8857
Hello... people make up nations.
God does not save whole nations, he saves individuals.
Thank you 🇺🇸✝️
Woohoo! I have been listening to your videos for years and I attend a Calvary Chapel. I would love to know the next time you are teaching at a Calvary Chapel. We are in NC.
It's not an oil and water issue as Warren proposed. Goes well beyond this into personality dynamics and the need for a proper diagnosis of James White's personality structure. Not enough is being said about this - so much gets missed.
The sheep are those who keep the commandments of God.
During the debate set a picture of Mike Brown on the lectern in front of you. Lol
😂😂😂
If the Church is the Bride of Christ, would that make an apostate like Derek Webb an "Ex o' Jesus"? I'll show myself out...
Very clever
I have found that those in places of ministry and authority over a false system, are nearly impossible to reason with. I sat down with the leader of a JW group, in my living room, and showed him from his own Watchtower magazines all the past false prophecies they have made. He became angry and stormed out of my house saying "I've been a JW for 40 years and I'm not changing now!"
Well to be fair false predictions don't disprove other beliefs that aren't based on those predictions. Most of the time people only bring those things up because they're trying to take a shortcut around the topics that are harder for them to discuss.
I mean, imagine I was having a conversation with James White about the something and said "Well you believe in Calvinism so that means you're wrong about this too." Except it's worse than that. It would be more like, "You USED TO believe in Calvinism so you're wrong about this."
@r.rodriguez4991 Jesus warned us that many false prophets would come claiming He is Christ and deceive many. In Deuternonomy 18, we are given the easy formula for spotting a false prophet. It says if the thing the prophet says does not come to pass, that is the false prophet and we should not listen to him. The Watchtower organization claims to receive their teaching by angelic direction and even compare themselves to the prophet Isaiah.
If you sit a JW in front of the Bible and show him all the verses that prove Jesus is God in the flesh and equal to the Father, he will just run back to his Watchtower scripture studies and find more verses pulled out of context to prove Jesus is just a created being and the spirit brother of Lucifer. You have to cut the head off the snake so they will stop fearing it.
First Show them that their Watchtower organization is a false prophet and they need to quit listening to it. Then you can show them the truth and they will no longer run back to their false teachers for more lies.
@@jesuscross9 And what happens when this false prophet repents? You're acting as if nobody can make a mistake. People throughout all denominations have held wrong beliefs but it seems you especially apply that scripture to groups you don't like more than others. I mean, think about all the different interpretations of prophecy. Think about people like amillenialists. Are they false prophets in your opinion as well. Do you treat them like Jehovah's Witnesses?
@r.rodriguez4991 I don't think we are connecting somehow. A false prophet is by definition a person or organization head or leader who claims God is personally giving them revelation. But is clearly not. The Watchtower organization makes this claim. Joseph Smith (Mormon founder) made this claim. The Watchtower made several prophecies about the date Christ would return. Likewise so did Smith. I'm NOT saying everyone under them and following them is a false prophet. I'm saying they are following a false prophet. I'm saying that the best way to lead them out of this false system is to expose the predictions they made that never came to pass. This is what I was trying to do with the gentleman that was in my living room. The problem was, he was in a place of ministry there. Meaning that if he left, he no longer has a source of income. I only compared it to Calvinists for that reason. I am not calling Calvinists false prophets. They are merely being manipulated by a false doctrine. Many can and do come out of that false teaching. I'm just saying that it's much harder for someone who's income is dependent on a false teaching.
Provisionism: God chooses His sheep - showing favor to the humble, the weak, the contrite - to become recipients of His saving grace. It is interactive with their lives, not determined arbitrarily before they were born.
Why do some people exposed to much gospel light not succumb to the power of the gospel? Calvinists: because they are not elect; God has not chosen them.
Provisionists: Because of their pride or hardened heart. They need to humble themselves, repent, and believe.
“Therefore I have said to you that no one can come to Me unless it has been granted to him by My Father.”
If your comment is a refute of provisionism,
Yes, the Father must be the first to enact relations. We can't come to Him on our own.
Doesn't = calvinsim
If your comment is a refute of provisionism,
Yes, the Father must be the first to enact relations. We can't come to Him on our own.
Doesn't = calvinsim
So James, Leighton and others having "notes," proves their arguments are invalid, or weak or wrong?
What a pathetic position, James.
5:35 I have caught this personality issue in myself. 😔
1. When James White unintentionally snarks on Leighton for using the already thrice Jesus-approved phrase from John 6 "came down from heaven," is he resembling the last name of Tom & the Heartbreakers?
2. Since the video is titled 'Who are His Sheep? Another look at John 10', can John 21 provide some perspective? Particularly its verses 15, 16, & 17 (ESV) where Jesus says to Simon Peter "...Feed my lambs ... Tend my sheep ... Feed my sheep ...", respectively?
3. Is this the same Simon Peter who, after first being introduced by his brother Andrew in John 1:42 (ESV), is addressed by Jesus: “You are Simon the son of John. You shall be called Cephas” (which means Peter)?
4. Is this word 'Cephas' a transliteration into Greek of the Aramaic word 'kephas'? Does this Aramaic word 'kephas' mean 'rock'?
5. If so, in John 21 is Jesus entrusting Simon Peter (Cephas, meaning 'rock') with His sheep as an investiture of office before He ascends into heaven? In other words, by His divine command are Jesus' sheep to be fed and tended by Simon Peter?
Grace and Peace to you. Would you like to be included in our Theology Group chat on a Different platform for further discussion?
The group an assortment of people with various theological beliefs and backgrounds. What we all have in common is a desire to discuss the bible, Religion and Christianity. It's a good Opportunity to witness to non-believers and fellowship with believers.
@@lark8356 Thank you for your gracious invitation, but I will decline. May God go with you.
@@annakimborahpa I understand. Thank you for your response.
Warren “blunting each other’s swords”… he stumbled into the truth…15So they got up and were counted off-twelve for Benjamin and Ish-bosheth son of Saul, and twelve for David. 16Then each man grabbed his opponent by the head and thrust his sword into his opponent’s side, and they all fell together. So this place, which is in Gibeon, is called Helkath-hazzurim…1:06. 1:58 describing the secrete knowledge would be condemned by Irenaeus as pure Gnosticism, and he would painstakingly and slowly bury it on Mars hill. IMHO. 😊
Another way of stating the common Calvinist approach exemplified by White: they start with Deductive conclusions pre-baked into the Calvinist Systematic Theology conclusions. Every passage must conform to the pre-committed conclusions. This is simply bad theological methodology!
The opposite approach is an Inductive approach where we follow the argument of the author to fully understand the points they are making and then arrive at expositional, exegetical conclusions. We then string these together within an author’s corpus to establish each author’s contribution to Biblical Theology.
This is why it is totally appropriate to look within John’s gospel to discover his narrative flow (where is he in his storyline at ch. 6, compared to his storyline at ch. 10, 12, 17, etc. The narrative matters! (It is actually the Calvinist who “flattens things out” by proof-texting while remaining ignorant of narrative flow and interpreting transitional realities as if they are for-all-time statement of dogmatics).
But meanwhile it is totally inappropriate to start with Paul (whatever he might have meant in Eph. 1), to interpret John’s argument, because there is no dependency. Whatever John is teaching - it MUST stand alone apart from Eph. 1 (unless he gives any indication that he is basing his argument on Eph. 1. This almost never happens where NT theology is dependent on other NT books. Whereas it is completely standard that NT teaching is based on, reflecting on, fulfilling, or expanding upon prior OT teaching).
Once John’s biblical theology is established, Paul May then be compared to note relationships. And this is when Systematic Theology can begin! Never do we rightly start exegesis by importing other No -dependent authors or systematic pre-conclusions. We Arrive at Systematic conclusions, and then constantly test them to see if they hold true or need adjustment.
i'm only seeing one comment at a time, but there are supposedly 0 comments, i've reloaded and have seen different comments but only one at a time...
Your terminology Leighton comes down from Texas
In this video, as in others, once again, the falsity of Calvinism has self-imploded and crumbled into a pile of ashes. Listening to White speak in such contradictory, incoherent, and inconsistent terms to his vast audience as if its Truth is heartbreaking.
@titosantiago3694 don't forget the GREEK, he say's words in GREEK. That means don't question him, he is never wrong because of the GREEK.🤔🤔🙄🙄🙄🙄😂😂😂😂😂😂
@@atyt11 🤣😂 you're absolutely right! 🤣😂
Arrogant people unwilling to learn are unteachable. God bless your ministry. You're making a difference.
James White always just randomly quotes grrek to lend credibility to his position.
THE SHEEPS IN JOHN 10 are those who listen to the voice of God.
“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who does not enter the sheepfold by the door but climbs in by another way, that man is a thief and a robber. But he who enters by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. To him the gatekeeper opens. The sheep hear his voice, and he calls his own sheep by name and leads them out. (John 10:1-3 ESV)
THE VOICE OF GOD IS THE WORD OF GOD.
Why do you not understand what I say? It is because you cannot bear to hear my word. Whoever is of God hears the words of God. The reason why you do not hear them is that you are not of God. (John 8:43, 47 ESV)
Did Idol Killer just compare James White to Porkins?
If determinism is true then James White had better live in fear that God will make him become "unsaved" like Derrick and therefore he needs to live in fear that maybe he was never truly chosen, even though he believed he was (i.e discovering you are a reprobate after thinking you were pre-elect/chosen - God was just teasing). That's so twisted and demonstrates how Calvanism is just absurd!! James is more devoted to Calvanism than Christianity/Jesus. Leighton is so sound in his theology. 🙏The PROVIDE "provisionism" acronym / doctrine is excellent, proving Calvanism and Arminianism are not the only two options!!🙏👍 Love Mike Winger too, and might just have become a Warren McGrew fan. 😁👍
God does not have to predestine people, He's bigger than that. He can give you free will and still have His way. That's the bigger God.
'dem bones man.
I am inspired by pastor Leighton's but believe the sheep were of that time but definitely is refering to all believers and follwers of Jesus..including us. Otherwise Jesus sacrafice was only for them of that time and not people after that era. This is not to say Leighton is wrong... just overlooked mankind thereafter in honest error. God bless him in his righteousness ministry for revealing the false teachings of calvinism.
James White “I can’t believe Leighton said... "down from heaven", he’s such a redneck,
that’s like one step from Satanism….
Oh, wait a minute, that’s actually in the Bible??” 🥴🙄🤣🤣
👍
1:22:00
With Calvinists its always about reading themselves into scripture. Talk about man-centered.
You never addressed anything the bible says.. you only try to refute james white
Regarding the transition from first bringing salvation to Israel, and then to the Gentiles (Acts 26:22-23), I think "John 10:25-29," in the context of "John 10:14-16," is referring to all the sheep (Jew and Gentile) who believe demonstrated by listening to and following the Shepherd, Lord Jesus. All the sheep are not just the Jews, but also includes the "other sheep" (the Gentiles) as the sheep who listen to and follow him.
John 10:14-16 (WEB) 14 I am the good shepherd. I know my own, and I’m known by my own; 15 even as the Father knows me, and I know the Father. I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 I have other sheep, which are not of this fold. [Isaiah 56:8] I must bring them also, and they will hear my voice.
John 10:25-29 (WEB) 25 Jesus answered them, “I told you, and you don’t believe. The works that I do in my Father’s name, these testify about me. 26 But you don’t believe, because you are not of my sheep, as I told you. 27 {{{My sheep}}} hear my voice, and I know {{{them}}}, and {{{they}}} follow me. 28 I give eternal life to {{{them}}}. {{{They}}} will never perish, and no one will snatch {{{them}}} out of my hand. 29 My Father who has given {{{them}}} to me is greater than all. No one is able to snatch {{{them}}} out of my Father’s hand.
According to "John 10:25-29," The "them" and "they" whom the Father {{{gives}}} to the Son are the sheep who believe evidenced by listening to and following Lord Jesus.
Grace and Peace to you. Would you like to be included in our Theology Group chat on a Different platform for further discussion?
The group an assortment of people with various theological beliefs and backgrounds. What we all have in common is a desire to discuss the bible, Religion and Christianity. It's a good Opportunity to witness to non-believers and fellowship with believers.
@jasonr9678 Hi Jason, "Revelation 17:8" is not discussing the names written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world; rather, this verse is addressing those {{{NOT}}} written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world. No one's name is included in the book of life, except those who believe.
Secondly, the phrase “{{{from}}} the foundation of the world” does not mean “{{{before}}} the foundation of the world”. Luke 11:50 talks about all the prophets which have been killed since the foundation of the world, using the same phrase. Therefore, "The Book of Life" is not an eternal list of names.
Also, the term "from the foundation of the world" is not defined by Scriptures. For instance, what does "foundation of the world" mean? Is it referring to creation, or is it referring to all of mankind since Adam? So, it appears to me that "The Book of Life" is a continuing list of those who put their faith in God from the first man, Adam, until this very day, and will continue on until the Judgement.
Blessings
@jasonr9678 I included some Scriptures which are very pertinent to why I believe the way I do, so please cut and paste those Scriptures into a Bible search engine, and then review.
You write:
"The Father is outside of time so He knows who will believe so from His knowledge the Book of Life is complete. It's unchangeable according to His foreknowledge."
My RE: Firstly, knowing who will believe, is entirely different from decreeing whom God elected to save by regenerating some so they can do nothing but believe.
Secondly, the Scriptures give us no teaching as to the details of what God chooses to foreknow, except for those things God caused to happen to fulfill His prophecies and His purposes. Regarding salvation, however, God makes very clear throughout all the Scriptures that his purpose (John 3:16), will (John 6:39-40), and good pleasure (1 Corinthians 1:21) is to grant salvation to those who repent toward God and believe.
We do know that God answers prayer, and God is righteous to save those who repent and believe. And some, who fall away and are a lost, may repent, and God is righteous to forgive them (Ezekiel 18:1-32). Therefore, regarding salvation, God does change is mind on how he purposes individuals and nations based on how they respond in His hands (Jeremiah 18:1-12; 2 Timothy 2:19-24)
I agree that God foreknew a people who would believe in His Son, and so be saved, from the foundation of the world. Therefore, those who died in faith are in the Book of Life. But not everyone will remain in the faith, which God also foreknows (Luke 21:34-36; Revelation 3:1-6).
You write: "And we are told that election is an accordance/agreement with His foreknowledge, not at the point of justification."
My RE: All the promises of God are for those who believe in God (those who love God): Romans 8:28-30. God foreknew a people who would believe and remain faithful after being called by the Gospel. And to these who love God, He has purposed and predestined them for a wonderful inheritance in Christ, being elect/chosen/called to be in Christ by faith in Him (John 3:16). The elect will remain elect in the Church as they remain in Christ by faith (2 Peter 1:5-11) - that is the Promise (Hebrews 6:11-12).
Election is irrevocable for the Church, and for Israel. And those who believe and remain faithful are elect in Christ, and remain part of the Elect church. But as you know, many of the Jews did not remain faithful, and so, only a remnant will be saved by grace since the foundation of the world to remain in Elect Israel. Similarly, not every Christian remains in the faith to the end, and so will be cut off from the Elect Church (Romans 11:15-24).
Many people have visions. When I was a child, I had a very real vision/dream in which I was an angel in heaven. But my faith is only in God, and what he has revealed to us in His Word as the fullness of the Gospel, made plain to understand, put into writing by the eternal God (Romans 16:25-27).
@jasonr9678 God grants repentance to both Jews and Gentiles alike. God showed Peter that God now grants even the Gentiles repentance onto life.
Acts 11:18 (WEB) 18 When they heard these things, they held their peace, and glorified God, saying, “Then God has also granted to the Gentiles repentance to life!”
Will all Jews repent? No. Will all Gentiles repent? No.
Regarding "predestination:" Predestination regards the promises of God to those who love God (Romans 8:28-31)
You write: "Prove that His foreknowledge isn't causative for salvation. I guarantee that you can't. You say the two are "entirely different." I say you are wrong.
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you; Before you were born I sanctified you; I ordained you a prophet to the nations.”
Jeremiah 1:5 NKJV
My RE: There is nothing about the Gospel that teaches us that believing in Christ is causative. God, in his foreknowledge, will choose individuals to fulfill his purposes - even the unsaved, even animals, but God does not form anyone from the womb to believe and be saved, and others he forms to reject him and so be condemned. Rather, all through the Scriptures, God urges, calls, invites, and commands all mankind to repentance and faith so they may be saved all through the Scriptures.
Isaiah 45:22 (WEB) 22 “Look to me, and be saved, all the ends of the earth, for I am God, and there is no other.
God forms persons in the womb, but that doesn't mean God forms some people to sin, be mass murderers, child molesters, rapists, etc, and forms others for the purpose of saving. Yes, God can foreknow who will believe in him, and who will reject him, that is a given.
"Ephesians 2:13-14" was written to believers, and so, this Passages is not teaching us {{how}} to be saved; rather the "YOU" {{{those who believe}}} are addressed as being chosen in him. Sinners are called and invited to salvation by faith in Lord Jesus (John 3:16). That is the Gospel. When we repent and believe, we sanctify ourselves to God (2 Timothy 2:19-21):
2 Timothy 2:19-21 (WEB) 19 However God’s firm foundation stands, having this seal, “The Lord knows those who are his,” [Numbers 16:5] and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from unrighteousness.” 20 Now in a large house there are not only vessels of gold and of silver, but also of wood and of clay. Some are for honor, and some for dishonor. 21 If anyone therefore purges himself from these, he will be a vessel for honor, sanctified, and suitable for the master’s use, prepared for every good work.
These are the ones God sanctifies to himself by His Word and Spirit.
Those who believe the {{{YOU}}}, whom he is writing to, were called by the Gospel "Ephesians 2:14."
@jasonr9678 The granting of repentance is all possible because Lord Jesus died for the sins of all mankind so that all those believing in him are saved by that sacrifice. That is the part "granting" has in God's plan of salvation. If not for the Gospel, no one is granted repentance onto life. That is the Gospel.
Regarding John the Baptist, God miraculously filled John with the Spirit from the womb, foreknowing that John would believe in him, for God knows who will hate him or believe in him before they are born, but God does not form people to hate him or believe in him. God does not form some people to be child molesters, mass killers, rapists, murderers, etc, and forms others to believe. According to all the Scriptures, what a person does with his life, and he choices he makes, are completely his own doing. That is why God judges righteously.
Ezekiel 18:21-32 (ESV) 23 Have I any pleasure in the death of the wicked, declares the Lord God, and not rather that he should turn from his way and live? 24 But when a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice and does the same abominations that the wicked person does, shall he live? None of the righteous deeds that he has done shall be remembered; for the treachery of which he is guilty and the sin he has committed, for them he shall die.
25 “Yet you say, {{{‘The way of the Lord is not just.’}}} Hear now, O house of Israel: Is my way not just? Is it not your ways that are not just? 26 When a righteous person turns away from his righteousness and does injustice, he shall die for it; for the injustice that he has done he shall die. 27 Again, when a wicked person turns away from the wickedness he has committed and does what is just and right, he shall save his life. 28 Because he considered and turned away from all the transgressions that he had committed, he shall surely live; he shall not die. 29 Yet the house of Israel says, {{{‘The way of the Lord is not just.’}}} O house of Israel, are my ways not just? Is it not your ways that are not just?
30 “Therefore I will judge you, O house of Israel, every one according to his ways, declares the Lord God. Repent and turn from all your transgressions, lest iniquity be your ruin. 31 Cast away from you all the transgressions that you have committed, and make yourselves a new heart and a new spirit! Why will you die, O house of Israel? 32 For I have no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Lord God; so turn, and live.”
Regarding "Psalm 22:9-10:" The is obviously a prophecy about the miraculous birth and life of Messiah - Son of David and Son of God. How do we know this? We know this, because all children at that age born into the world have no conception of God or the Gospel. In fact, David himself said that he was born in sin:
Psalms 51:5 (WEB) Behold, I was born in iniquity. My mother conceived me in sin.
I think calvinist have such a hatred for analogies because their world view is so illogical it's hard for them to find good analogies. On the other hand...
James white is great at bashing people who oppose calvinism to make the elect laugh and boost their "elect complex" i mean so the james white disciples nod along with whatever comes out of james mouth. A great way to stay humble and keep learning is to NOT be surrounded by YES MEN & WOMEN. i assume james white has not been surrounded by only yes men & women for 30 year's or so,
Wild stuff.
Romans one is very clear regarding the reason for God's judgement. I must say, I am sorry to say that I do not believe Dr. James White is able to honestly and, in good faith, interact with someone of differing opinions.
Leighton and Warren did the same thing at 41:59 lol
Well we are synergists, 😂
2:12:04, 2:12:17 🤣
When you try to make fun of a man for saying (down from heaven) it just proves you don’t have any real point. That is just being childish!
4:49 Leighton, then Warren attempt to ascribe motives to James White. This is unbecoming. Just deal with the arguments.
What Was the Purpose of Water Baptism?
For the Jews and their “gospel of the kingdom;” water baptism was a required expression of believing faith.
We see in Luke 7:28-30 those that were baptized with the baptism of John, justified God, and those that chose not to be baptized, rejected the counsel of God.
Luke 7:28-30
28 For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.
29 And all the people that heard him, and the publicans, justified God, being baptized with the baptism of John.
30 But the Pharisees and lawyers rejected the counsel of God against themselves, being not baptized of him.
John’s baptism was a symbolic baptism. God tells us in Hebrews 9:22 that there is no “remission of sins” without the shedding of blood. At this time, Christ’s blood had not yet been shed.
Jesus spoke in Matthew 26:28 about His blood being the blood of the New Testament which is shed for “many” for the “remission of sins.”
Matthew 26:28 For this is my blood of the new testament, which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
We see in Acts 2:38 that on Pentecost, Peter preaches repentance and baptism for the “remission of sins.” Christ’s blood had been shed, so “remission of sins” was available for those who by faith obeyed and were baptized.
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.
We see in Mark 16:16 where Jesus speaks of believing faith accompanied by obedience.
Mark 16:16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.
In I Samuel 15:22 we are told “behold to obey is better than sacrifice.” Christ is the Lamb of God. He willingly sacrificed Himself upon the cross. Those under the “gospel of the kingdom” who believed in Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God, possessed obedient faith and were baptized.
And they [Jews] also, *if they abide not still in unbelief* shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in *again*
{Romans 11:23}
So we see that the Jews were/are not individually chosen to be the elect of God, and also they can lose their salvation due to unbelief.
@Jason R
*He that overcometh* the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and *I will not blot out his name out of the book of life* but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
{Revelation 3:5}
@Jason R
One does not overcome by election, but through faith in Jesus Christ.
Calvinism is an anti-gospel that leads its followers to destruction.
"Who are His sheep?"
This is such an easy question with a very simple answer.
His sheep are those of the house of Israel that heard and learned of the Father from the fathers of Israel that didn't bow their knees to Baal....period.
It's so understandable.
A person that heard and learned of the Father will come and follow the Son because they have the same darn voice....simple.
The Pharisees were not hearing and learning of the Father, they heard and learned the ways of Baal from their fathers who bowed their knees to Baal.
My gosh, it's so simple that even I can understand and I barely graduated High School.
1 Corinthians 1
27 But God hath chosen the foolish things of the world to confound the wise; and God hath chosen the weak things of the world to confound the things which are mighty;
28 And base things of the world, and things which are despised, hath God chosen, yea, and things which are not, to bring to nought things that are:
29 That no flesh should glory in his presence.
Grace and Peace to you. Would you like to be included in our Theology Group chat on a Different platform for further discussion?
The group an assortment of people with various theological beliefs and backgrounds. What we all have in common is a desire to discuss the bible, Religion and Christianity. It's a good Opportunity to witness to non-believers and fellowship with believers.
@Jason R
FROM:
indicating the point in space at which a journey, motion, or action starts.
Names are written in the book FROM the foundation, not BEFORE the foundation.
If their names were written in the book before the foundation of the world there would be no good reason to create in the first place unless God is a devil that loves to toy around with living souls only to destroy them after He's done playing with them.
Words have meaning so that we are able to get a clear understanding and by that verse, I have a clear understanding that if my name is not written into the Book of Life that means I abide in death and had better find the way to get my name written into the book of life unless, of course, I love death and would prefer to remain in death without hope.
@Jason R Amen!
All who dwell on the EARTH at that time will be among those that rejected the Lamb slain FROM the foundation of the world...THEY will worship the beast
@Jason R
I saw it the first time! 😁
That's why I never became a Calvinist.
Revelation 20:15
“And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.”
@Jason R 1 Peter 1
17 And IF ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:
18 Forasmuch as ye KNOW that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.
22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in OBEYING the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:
23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, BY THE WORD OF GOD, which liveth and abideth for ever.
2 Timothy 3:15
“And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, WHICH ARE ABLE TO MAKE THEE WISE UNTO SALVATION through faith which is in Christ Jesus.”
GULP 😊
Being born again BY the incorruptible SEED which is the word of God...GULP!
Believe calvinists are born again. But as far as reformed theology i call it deformed theology
The transition period is prophetic.
Daniel 9:27 ... is speaking of the new covenant that Jesus Christ our promised Messiah confirms with many, for three and a half years of the seventieth week, (not as the unlearned, who give this covenant to the antichrist) from his anointing~baptism at the age of thirty, to his sacrifice and death, and resurrection when he was thirty three years of age, for the remission of sins.
But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, [G1242] which was established upon better promises.
{Hebrews 8:6}
For this is the covenant [G1242] that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; *I will put my laws* into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
{Hebrews 8:10}
For this is my blood of the new testament, [G1242] which is shed for many for the remission of sins.
{Matthew 26:28}
And he said unto them, This is my blood of the new testament, [G1242] which is shed for many.
{Mark 14:24}
Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament [G1242] in my blood, which is shed for you.
{Luke 22:20}
9:20 Leighton says it is intuitive that the sheep in John 10 are only the followers of God alive at the time when Jesus was down from heaven. If all believers who come after are not also Jesus' sheep, then we have a real problem. Jesus said He gave His life for His sheep.
John 10:11
“I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."
John 10:27-28
"My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me. And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand."
Not only that, but the Good Shepherd is returning some day to separate the sheep from the goats.
Matthew 25:31-46
“When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’
“Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’
“Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’
“Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”
*Who are the sheep?*
Reading this separation of sheep from goats, who are the sheep? They are the ones who have eternal life.
Is the word sheep being used differently in Matthew 25 than in John 10? No, it doesn't seem to be, especially not since Jesus refers to Himself as a shepherd in both passages, and the sheep have eternal life in both passages.
*Who are the goats?*
The goats are those who do not have eternal life and therefore go to eternal punishment.
*Conclusion*
All believers are the sheep; it is not limited to those living at the time Jesus was speaking in John 10.
calvinism is true when talking about the special election like what God did to Moses, Paul, and other biblical characters who were chosen for a purpose.
This doesn’t make Calvinism true. It just requires expanding your understanding of categories within election.
Not really because Calvinism is the election for salvation not purpose.
We wont know who the elect are until the eternal state
Many will try to enter and not
Be able!😊
I’m sorry Leighton I listened to the James White show. Those clips were taken out of his much fuller statement of explanation. Your audience is not getting the full context.
I may not necessarily be a fully committed Calvinist yet, ( still working through it)but your understanding of JW’s position is terribly flawed. I’m not sure if you’re intentionally misstating the position or so immersed in your presuppositions that you’re incapable of understanding.
Projecting what James white does to Flowers onto Flowers does not make you look very smart. White repeats himself at this point, there is nothing else White has said that shines any more light onto what has already been shown. The reason this video is so long is that they let White talk through his points thoroughly. And yet, he still committs exegetical suicide.
@@silasberdes6466 Well I never claimed to be very bright but White walks right through the text very well. Let’s just say after listening to this show I understand why White gets so exasperated.
I hope Flowers agrees to have another debate. Probably would be beneficial.